Thursday Morning Open Thread: Here We Go Again

(Tom Toles via GoComics.com)
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I’m old enough I can remember being thrilled when Roe v Wade passed. At the time, my teenage self couldn’t imagine that we’d have to fight the same battles against ignorance, hypocrisy, and misogyny all over again… but the older I got, the more it became clear it would happen, sooner or later.






210 replies
  1. 1
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    A high of 53 on Sunday. 89 degrees today. Blech.

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  2. 2
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Authorities said the raid on the videographer, Bryan Carmody, was part of an investigation into the leak of a confidential police report on the death of Jeff Adachi, San Francisco’s public defender. A judge signed search warrants for an investigation into “stolen or embezzled” property, according to the Los Angeles Times, which reported that the officers confiscated dozens of Carmody’s personal items, including his notebooks, phone, computer, hard drives and cameras.

    Reactions from some city leaders seemed to misunderstand basic tenets of free press laws. The San Francisco supervisor Sandra Fewer said of Carmody: “If he were obtaining this information to write a story, it still is illegal to obtain a police report unless it has been officially released.” The law, however, protects journalists’ right to publish stories on law enforcement files, and Fewer later released a statement acknowledging she was “not a legal expert”.

    The San Francisco mayor, London Breed, who has previously stood up to Trump over attacks on her city, also defended police on Tuesday, saying the SFPD “went through the appropriate legal process to request a search warrant” and adding: “The police need to continue that internal investigation using legal and appropriate means.”

    After the raid, the public defender’s office issued a statement that surprised first amendment activists, saying it was “pleased” police were “working to get to the bottom of” the report leak. In the face of backlash, the public defender Manohar Raju, Adachi’s replacement, later released a clarified comment about the raid that said: “Nothing about this statement should be interpreted as condoning specific police tactics in this matter.”

    Other officials have tried to avoid the discussion altogether, including progressive leaders who have consistently made headlines for fighting the president’s policies. All 11 elected members of the San Francisco board of supervisors declined to comment to the Guardian or did not immediately respond to inquiries on Wednesday. The governor, state attorney general and San Francisco city attorney also did not respond to questions.

    It’s enough to make one think the police have files of dirt on every one of these cowards.

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  3. 3
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: So weird.

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  4. 4
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

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  5. 5
    danielx says:

    @rikyrah:

    God morning to you also…..

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  6. 6
    danielx says:

    Take note: dental bone grafts suck and are at best an evil and unfortunate necessity.

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  7. 7
    NotMax says:

    Enough chicken marsala to last through the weekend made yesterday using Instant Pot. In a culinary happy place.

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  8. 8
    Immanentize says:

    Good morning, All.

    It looks like we will have a sunny-ish day in the 60s here in Boston. Quite nice except for the fact that I will be stuck inside at an all-day faculty meeting which is being billed as a “retreat.” Ha!

    I intend to text snark to like minded colleagues throughput.

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  9. 9
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

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  10. 10
    Immanentize says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    I’ve been following this story and I just don’t get the underlying issue — the former head of the Public Defender’s Office seems to have expired in a hotel room with his mistress, booze and pills. That is the police report everyone is in a tizzy about. Classic Herald or Post front page stuff. But they are going all in on the reporter?

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  11. 11
    debbie says:

    @Immanentize:

    Circling back to the opening topic, it’s kind of like blaming the woman for rape or incest, no?

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  12. 12
    NotMax says:

    @Immanentize

    “Retreat” is what you’ll long to do about fifteen minutes in, eh?

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  13. 13
    debbie says:

    @debbie:

    I don’t know why my post is in moderation, but to repeat:

    Circling back to the opening topic, it’s kind of like blaming the woman for r*pe or inc*st, no?

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  14. 14
    Soprano2 says:

    I wish reporters would ask the supporters of these laws a logical question – why don’t they charge the woman who gets or tries to get an abortion with premeditated murder? If you believe a fetus is a person at the moment of conception, it’s only logical. It’s not really a “gotcha” question.

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  15. 15
    Immanentize says:

    @NotMax: I’d rather “advance” to a coffee shop or hide in my office for the duration

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  16. 16
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Immanentize: The reaction to his dog bites man having sex reporting is so over the top it makes me think “What are they really afraid of?” The individual concerned is dead dead DEAD. He certainly doesn’t care, why does every one else? If I was a betting man I’d put money on the “mistress” is actually a call girl and somebody out there has a little black book with a whooooooole lot of names in it.

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  17. 17
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    It is becoming obvious to more and more people that Republicans are the clearest demonstration possible for why abortion is so necessary. If only their mothers….

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  18. 18
    debbie says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    It’s the stupid of the justification that gets to me.

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  19. 19
    Baud says:

    @Soprano2:

    It’s an easy answer. Because the case for the Supreme Court looks better if the women are invisible. Once Roe is overturned, they’ll go after the women.

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  20. 20
    Kay says:

    @Soprano2:

    I agree. I don’t think we have any idea how changing that definition will play out and I don’t think any of them have given it any thought at all. I was never able to reconcile the two sets of rights where “a person” is inside another person and I don’t think anyone has been able to in a way that doesn’t subtract a whole set of rights from the woman. When I was in law school it was fashionable to sneer at Roe v Wade as if there are 15 better ways to get there, but they ended up there because this is a really hard question. I’ve never read a better compromise, and Roe v Wade is a compromise.
    The truth is when you set it up as “a person at conception” you have to subtract any basic agency from the woman. That has to happen. Two full sets of rights can’t operate in one body.
    The state statutes read oddly because you find yourself looking for the actor- the woman- and she’s not there. No other laws are written like this, where there’s this absence of the individual with agency. I know why they do it- they do it because the obvious answer is yours- if the fertilized egg is a person this is premeditated murder- but what ends up happening is they have to remove her completely, which gives her even less agency and humanity. She’s not even enough of a person to act.

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  21. 21
    debbie says:

    @Soprano2:

    Here is another logical question: Why aren’t the men who get the women pregnant being criminalized? The woman wouldn’t be in the fix she finds herself in if the man had kept his pants on.

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  22. 22
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    The Trump administration made a web survey. We have questions

    “SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS should advance FREEDOM OF SPEECH. Yet too many Americans have seen their accounts suspended, banned, or fraudulently reported for unclear ‘violations’ of user policies,” the survey states. “No matter your views, if you suspect political bias caused such an action to be taken against you, share your story with President Trump.”

    Sure.

    So, in response to the White House’s 16 questions, we have 16 of our own.

    1. What is the White House planning to do with the names and contact information of people who complete this form?
    2. What won’t the White House do with the names and contact information of people who complete this form?
    3. How and where is the data from people completing this survey being stored?
    4. Why does the White House only want responses from US citizens and permanent residents?
    5. Does the White House know that the first amendment applies to non-citizens who are in the United States?
    6. Why was this form built on Typeform, which is based in Barcelona?
    7. Why not Survey Monkey?
    8. Why not a Google Form?
    9. Does the White House know that it could have set up a Google Form for free?
    10. Is the White House familiar with section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which protects the right of internet platforms to make their own rules regarding user-generated content?
    11. Does the White House know that the first amendment does not apply to censorship decisions made by private social media platforms?
    12. If the White House receives absolute incontrovertible proof that private social media companies are biased against conservatives, what exactly does it plan to do about that?
    13. Whose idea was this?
    14. Is this part of a broader government strategy designed to achieve … something?
    15. Did you see what that coconut water company tweeted?
    16. Have you tried turning it off and back on again?

    The White House press secretary, Sarah Sanders, did not immediately respond.

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  23. 23
    Chyron HR says:

    @debbie:

    The man is creating life. He should get a commendation.

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  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    I was in law school it was fashionable to sneer at Roe v Wade as if there are 15 better ways to get there

    Hard to believe liberals who have never done anything would sneer at the imperfections of liberals who have.

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  25. 25
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Wasn’t there some ginned up controversy about the Obama White House collecting email addresses?

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    @OzarkHillbilly:

    The White House press secretary, Sarah Sanders, did not immediately respond.

    What does Sarah Sanders do all day?

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  27. 27
    Kay says:

    @Soprano2:

    There is a way to do it. Children have less legal agency and responsibility than adults do. So they can turn the pregnant woman into the equilvalent of a child, with the state as the parent of both. That’s actually how it will work. That’s the legal scheme for actual children who are pregnant, when they’re in state care. The mother is a state ward and so is the child, when it arrives. But it’s more complicated than even that! Because there’s a father. He’s not pregnant and he retains the full set of rights with an additional one- the right to the “child” that is inside the mother.

    Reap the whirlwind. They have no earthly idea how nuts this will get. All these years they spent harassing women at clinics should have been spent looking at all these legal relationships and thinking them thru because they’re all connected.

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  28. 28
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: That one’s easy: SEP, Somebody Else’s Problem.

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  29. 29
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    It’s “poorly reasoned”. Guffaw. You fucking try it. That is a HARD question. They will rue the day they left that safe sanctuary and entered bizzaro world, where fertilized eggs are “persons” and they have to answer some actual questions about how they sort out rights between three persons, one of which is inside another. It’s unique. They had to jam it into a frame because it’s a fucking impossible riddle. The three tier structure of Roe is a fairly good answer that mostly works, and they aren’t going to come up with anything better on the fly in some statehouse after they pass these laws.

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  30. 30
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: I don’t remember, but it sounds about right, just another faux RWNJ outrage.

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  31. 31

    Reposting from below.

    When I look at these abortion laws, I feel so weary. We did this once. I can’t believe we have to do it again. It’s like time is rolling backwards. Birth control is clearly on the table too, at least in many reliable forms. Women now into their 60s have taken these as given all their reproductive lives.

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  32. 32
    Matt McIrvin says:

    Apparently Elizabeth Warren is unacceptable garbage now because while talking about climate change she mentioned the military in a non-derogatory manner. Or something; Twitter can be hard to follow.

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  33. 33
    Ohio Mom says:

    This is an extememly telling quote from “Anti-Abortion Lawmakers Have No Idea How Women’s Bodies Work” a post by Jessica Valenti in Medium:

    When Alabama Senator Bobby Singleton, a Democrat, pointed out that Alabama’s new law could punish those who dispose of fertilized eggs at an IVF clinic, Chambliss responded, “The egg in the lab doesn’t apply. It’s not in a woman. She’s not pregnant.”

    Proving that their concerns really do have nothing to do with “life” and everything to do with misogyny.

    Now it’s time for me to get going. I’ll be back much later.

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  34. 34
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I’d really rather not know.

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  35. 35
    Baud says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    See also the previous post.

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  36. 36
    satby says:

    @debbie: Because “good girls” don’t get knocked up.
    Wish I was snarking, but that’s the belief.

    I was finishing high school when Roe was decided. And Roe became possible only because too many “good girls” had died in botched illegal abortions or had killed themselves over the “shame” for the public to ignore. Too many parents had rushed their children into disastrous marriages just to avoid the stigma of illegitimacy. And no one under 60 really remembers any of that, so it looks like we’ll need to repeat it.

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  37. 37
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kay: All the frozen fertilized eggs are gonna need guardian ad litems, right?

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  38. 38
    Another Scott says:

    @Kay: The Alabama law seems to be a “let’s ask for the Moon, and maybe we’ll get the car” kinda thing. The men pushing this seem to be trying to throw anything in the bill that will get the SCOTUS to take it up.

    Of course, it’s unconstitutional under Roe, so every court up to the SCOTUS should throw it out and they should get nothing.

    But these genius legislators don’t seem to recognize that risk.

    It was noted yesterday that there are some, er, problems if one takes this legislation to its logical conclusion when it comes to IVF and frozen eggs and so forth. Will fertility docs be charged with kidnapping?? What happens to a woman who undergoes fertility treatments and releases, say, 5 eggs at a time and only twins result? Will she and the docs be charged with mass murder??!

    I suspect Plan C will be very, very busy whether or not this is (or something like it) ultimately upheld by the SCOTUS. Women won’t go back, and they won’t wait to protect their rights. And few things are more fundamental than a person’s right to decide whether they will reproduce or not, IMO.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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  39. 39
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Matt McIrvin: You mean she talked about how the military is actively planning for climate change?

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  40. 40
    Baud says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    We did this once. I can’t believe we have to do it again. 

    Nothing is ever done. Thinking it is is why our side takes things for granted.

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  41. 41
    Leto says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Considering she’s a lead sponsor on a bill to hold military housing contractors responsible for the shit holes military families are forced to live in, Twitter can go fuck itself. On top of the fact that the CFPB helped a ton of military members/families get out of predatory schemes (at least pre-Jan 2017), again, Twitter can go fuck itself.

    I’m up way too early, grouchy, and need coffee.

    Edit:

    @OzarkHillbilly: It’s part of the reason why the DoD was so heavily invested in new biofuels and alternative energy sources. The DoD identified climate change as our #1 national security issue almost a decade ago. I remember when that report came out and Republicans (predictably) lost their shit.

    Coffee…

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  43. 43
    rikyrah says:

    Andrew Lawrence (@ndrew_lawrence) Tweeted:
    Tucker Carlson says it’s “honorable and necessary” to force women to give birth after being impregnated by their rapists https://t.co/7SOazQv5Ck https://twitter.com/ndrew_lawrence/status/1128814766041042954?s=17

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  44. 44
    Immanentize says:

    @Kay:
    And, no unborn child can own or divest property. Cannot be made a beneficiary of a will, etc.

    The whole of law, except for pregnancy restrictions, is set up to NOT recognize personhood until after surviving birth.

    Second, if the State requires mother’s to not take so many actions, and do in fact act in parens patriae shouldn’t the State pay for all prenatal care and delivery expenses? These laws are not thought through at all.

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  45. 45
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Leto: Oh yeah they lost their shit. Generals doing their jobs planning for real world problems, not the made up Iranian bogeymen of Republican nightmares.

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  46. 46
    Dave says:

    A question or proposal (probably requires another thread or venue) anyone know what the mechanics involved to start a BDS style campaign against those animals in Alabama. Damage the SOBs as much as possible,and illustrate that actions have consequences

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  47. 47
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    To the customer who accidentally got given a bottle of Chateau le Pin Pomerol 2001, which is £4500 on our menu, last night – hope you enjoyed your evening! To the member of staff who accidentally gave it away, chin up! One-off mistakes happen and we love you anyway 😉

    Hawksmoor Manchester

    I don’t know about 4500 quid, but it was nice when we added the lemonade and ice cubes… 😝

    -Steve H-S.

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  48. 48
    Aleta says:

    @Immanentize: Best you can do is announce you’ll be meditating. If they ask you about strategic vision or pie in the sky goals for the future, begin to chant.

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  49. 49
    tobie says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Glad you said that. I’ve always felt singularly evil for wishing abortion had been more widespread when I see or hear Rick Santorum. Good to know I have company.

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    @Immanentize: I’m sure insurance companies would love to get out of paying for pregnancy.

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  51. 51
    Aleta says:

    @Immanentize: Afaik, one cannot take out life insurance on them either.

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  52. 52
    rikyrah says:

    Zerlina Maxwell (@ZerlinaMaxwell) Tweeted:
    Every time a white democrat says “we have to reach out to Trump voters” I wonder if they know that BLACK PEOPLE CAN HEAR THEM

    Ok I’ll stop now. https://twitter.com/ZerlinaMaxwell/status/1128750921935147015?s=17

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  53. 53
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Immanentize: If a human being begins at conception, then Homo sapiens is not primarily a bipedal, mammalian species. The majority of people who have ever lived were minute balls of cells who died unnoticed of failure to implant in the uterine wall, and this constant background of silent deaths demands nothing less than the total reengineering of human reproduction.

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  54. 54
    gene108 says:

    @Kay:

    You are over thinking this. Alito, Roberts, Gorsuck, Kavanaough, and Thomas are the only five people in this country, who have to decide what the legal basis for upholding these laws will be. They will find a way. This is their dream come true.

    The rest doesn’t matter.

    Look at the Muslim ban. Lower court after lower court rejected it, but those five decided to uphold it. Same will happen here.

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  55. 55
    rikyrah says:

    LiberalPhenom (Obama is my president forever) (@LiberalPhenom) Tweeted:
    94% of Black women voted for Hillary. Black women won a Senate seat for Doug Jones in AL. All for white women to mess over women. https://t.co/KEHDGhMs14 https://twitter.com/LiberalPhenom/status/1128806251050274816?s=17

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  56. 56
    Leto says:

    @Aleta:

    “OhmmmmmmmmmIain’tgottimeforthisshit…. “

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  57. 57
    rikyrah says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:
    Say it again

    BIRTH CONTROL IS IN THEIR SIGHTS😠😠😠

    ReplyReply
  58. 58
    NotMax says:

    @Immanentize

    More prosaically, you* cannot claim a tax deduction for a fertilized egg.

    *General, not you personally

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  59. 59
  60. 60
    Kay says:

    @Immanentize:

    The whole of law, except for pregnancy restrictions, is set up to NOT recognize personhood until after surviving birth.

    It is. I just don’t believe they’ve thought this through. I read the anti-abortion statutes as applying to all pregnancies, because they do. All of that language has to transfer. They can’t take a huge concept like “a person”, put it inside another person and think that’s the end of it. It will be hugely new that the father will have a full set of parental rights at conception. Wow. Now we have one adult with the full set of rights, a newly invented quasi “child” category for the pregnant woman, and a child and two of those “persons” are actually physically joined.

    They went to the Mayo for Roe because ….”here, physicians, you do it” It was an emergency :)

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  61. 61
    JWR says:

    @Another Scott:

    Women won’t go back, and they won’t wait to protect their rights.

    Yeah, something tells me that the Women’s March will look minuscule in comparison to what we’ll see should SCOTUS actually overturn Roe V Wade.

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  62. 62
    But her emails!!! says:

    It’s like people think that these laws will be applied consistently and blindly. That there will be some sort of coherent legal theory and structure underlying enforcement and punishment. They won’t be and there won’t be. The application will be discretionary and discriminatory. The outcome and whether there are even charges will largely depend who the defendant would be and the prosecutor. The wrong type will get 99 years for miscarrying after drinking a half glass of wine before they even knew they were pregnant. The right sort of people will be able to toss newborns into garbage disposals without facing consequences.

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  63. 63
    ET says:

    Of course the anti-abortion crowd has never really been about saving lives, not really (hence the gun control, death penalty hypocrisy). They are all about punishing the dirty whores.

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  64. 64
    Aleta says:

    It chills me to think of what could happen if a defendant and lawyer decided to punish a woman who brought rape charges.

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  65. 65
    MomSense says:

    @debbie:

    We can’t even keep all the mommas and wanted babies alive through pregnancy and childbirth and these ignoranuses don’t care at all. Hell, they don’t care about all the “babies” that are destroyed at fertility clinics.

    ReplyReply
  66. 66
    Kay says:

    @gene108:

    Here’s the thing though. Someone has to apply this. You can’t have two full sets of human rights operating within one person as to the state. One set has to give way. Roe says the fertilized egg gives way, then the fetus, with the woman’s right gradually lessening until birth. Roe didn’t address the father’s rights at all because Roe doesn’t define the egg/fetus as a person. A child person. Which means the pregnancy has the rights of a child. Is your head spinning yet?

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  67. 67
    MomSense says:

    I fucked up my sign in somehow so I’ll try again.

    @debbie:

    We can’t keep all the mommas who want their babies alive but the ignoranuses who support these bills don’t care at all about that. How about all the “babies” destroyed at fertility clinics? Where’s the outrage?

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  68. 68
    Leto says:

    @Immanentize:@Kay: I saw this brought up elsewhere, but what about pregnant women in jail? If the fetus is a person with “full rights”, isn’t the state now holding “a person” unlawfully? How do they intend to resolve that?

    We know they haven’t thought this through because like so many other topics, when asked to show their homework they mumble something about dogs eating it, they forgot it, or any number of other excuses that show they haven’t followed their own logic all the way through. They don’t consult with real experts because they disdain actual SMEs. Or the experts they call on are fellow grifters, like “creation scientists”.

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  69. 69

    @gene108: This is quite different, as Kay is pointing out, they’re fucking up well settled law and they’re going to have to unfuck it under their new paradigm.

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    gvg says:

    @Immanentize: An unborn child can be a beneficiary of a will though. There are lots of wills that actually name grandchildren of x get trust income when the children aren’t even married or expecting. Some of the Ford family trusts and various oil company wealth I have read about.
    I don’t think this is really important to your point about they haven’t thought things through, but it jumped out at me because I know it’s not true.

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  72. 72
    rikyrah says:

    Yep😒😒

    But, we were just scaring you by mentioning the Courts in 2016😒😒

    https://twitter.com/girlsreallyrule/status/1128844025291825153

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  73. 73
    Aleta says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Do they mind the prospect of writing new laws that don’t take fairness into account? Or are they excited about having the opportunity and power and pay?

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  74. 74
    JeanneT says:

    My adult children have made tentative plans to leave the US if Trump wins in 2020, and asked me to come with them. I told them I can’t come because I need to be here to drive women to safe states for access to reproductive care. It won’t surprise me if that also means helping women get access to birth control.

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  75. 75
    gvg says:

    @Leto: They already “solve” the child after it’s born, by making the woman give up the child. She can give it to family or friends, but if she doesn’t have any that can pass a basic background check (won’t endanger a child), she has to give it up for adoption. It’s fairly well known as a way to get a child if you minister to a woman’s prison or know someone who does who will recommend you when a desperate inmate or soon to be incarcerated woman asks for help. I thought it sounded creepy when I was told this while seeking adoptions, but on the other hand I don’t see a better solution. Of course IMO we shouldn’t be incarcerating over some things like smoking marijuana or unpaid petty fines. I can state the foster care system is overworked and can’t deal with this. What was creepy was being told you could deliberately seek to become friends with prisoners for this purpose. And this means there is another barrier to reform, it would further reduce the population of adoptable healthy babies….other age children also get forced into adoption. I speak of Florida, but I think this is probably true everywhere.

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  76. 76
    Ksmiami says:

    @Immanentize: so boarding schools have a term once kids are dropped off called in loco parentis whereby the the schools become the parents in lieu of – I guess by stripping bodily autonomy of women, all pregnancies should become wards of the state whereby women and the fetuses are given all necessary care and nutrition for the duration (and beyond) required- as someone mentioned above the fundies haven’t thought this through

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  77. 77
    MomSense says:

    @JeanneT:

    We’ll have to start a network again. Some years ago, at the memorial service of a retired minister, a number of women from all over the country showed up to honor him because he was greeting women at his church and helping them go to Canada for abortions. He would welcome them, counsel them, give them a bus ticket, and arrange to pay for their abortions at a medical clinic in Canada. He saved a lot of lives. Apparently he was part of a clergy network quietly doing this work.

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  78. 78
    Jeffro says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I saw that, and I’m really curious…the total ban is exactly what he would be pushing for on any other day. But the minute it passes somewhere, he’s against it.

    Kind of gives away the game, doesn’t it?

    “Uh oh…there goes our fundraising and GOTV…”

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  79. 79
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @gvg: You realize you’re arguing a point of law with a law professor, right?

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    Aleta says:

    @JeanneT: 💜

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  81. 81
    Duane says:

    If men could become pregnant abortion at every hospital and birth control at every convenience store would be the law.

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  82. 82
    Aleta says:

    @MomSense: I didn’t know that. Was this in Boston? A friend of mine had a terrible back street abortion in Boston before RW, in a hurry before she left for Canada with her draft fleeing boyfriend. She was young and didn’t know any other option (like possible in Canada).

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  83. 83
    Ramalama says:

    @JeanneT: It’s a weird feeling to have left the US. I’m not far from the US border, and blessed-be to the VPN technology, I can watch quality television programming (there are some good Canadian shows .. but not a lot). I moved for a bunch of different reasons, but it’s disconcerting the more and more Handmaid’s Tale life is becoming ‘down south’ as Canadians refer to youse all.

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  84. 84
    laura says:

    @satby: Becky Bell. The botched abortion story that has stuck with me all my so-called fertile life. Becky Bell put the lie to the good girl theory.
    Becky Bell. Say her name.

    ReplyReply
  85. 85
    rikyrah says:

    @NotMax:
    How long did it take to cook?

    ReplyReply
  86. 86

    I still can’t believe these laws will be allowed to stand.

    If they are, what else follows? If your 16 year old daughter becomes pregnant because she didn’t plan to have sex because good girls don’t, does she drop out of HS? Does she just go on and have the baby? Does she go away to an institution that’s probably run by nuns and then give the baby up for adoption? What happens?

    ReplyReply
  87. 87
    JWR says:

    Some pro-life “thoughts”(?) frpm Kristan Hawkins, president of Students for Life of America, this morning on NPR:

    “The 13th amendment banned slavery in our nation, and while it didn’t completely stop all slavery, no slavery still exists on our world today, it greatly, greatly reduced it. And so that’s not really, that’s not an argument for why we should keep something legal that’s killing over a million people a year.”

    Okay. I’ve listened to her “argument” several times now, and have come to the conclusion she’s just willfully confused. Also, dense. Like Meghan McCain dense, and all for the One True Cause.

    ReplyReply
  88. 88
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Chyron HR:

    True. There is a reason that traditionally the man was refer to as laying his seed and the woman refer to as either fertile or barren. The farmer has agency, the land he plows doesn’t.

    ReplyReply
  89. 89
    JPL says:

    @JeanneT: If you live in GA, you can be prosecuted for that action.

    ReplyReply
  90. 90
    laura says:

    @gvg: do you want to explain the Rule Against Perpetuities to gvg, or just suggest they watch Body Heat?

    ReplyReply
  91. 91
    Cacti says:

    The free states should start passing laws refusing to extradite or cooperate in the criminal process of anyone fleeing from the Taliban states’ anti-abortion laws.

    ReplyReply
  92. 92
    EmbraceYourInnerCrone says:

    Anyone who thinks people will just be able to order medication abortion pills online may be fooling themselves. We are starting to look more and more like Ireland (and Ireland is actually loosening their abortion laws slightly:

    This woman turned her room mate in to the police for getting a medication abortion.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/woman-who-reported-housemate-for-buying-abortion-drugs-defends-actions-1.2600585

    This is personal for me because I have had three pregnancies but only one kid. I had a bloody, painful miscarriage the first time, the second time the fetus died in utero and I had to get a D&C to avoid infection/sepsis… I am so glad I am too old to get pregnant , but my daughter is 24.

    They have been chipping away at abortion right for years, anyone who didn’t see this coming has not been paying attention.

    ReplyReply
  93. 93
    Matt says:

    These laws should make one thing perfectly clear: we can either have a country where everybody’s free, or we can have a country where fundamentalists have any voice in public policy. We’ve tried the “compromise” approach, and all that’s gotten us is here.

    Tax the churches into the ground.

    ReplyReply
  94. 94
    rikyrah says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    What does Sarah Sanders do all day?

    Lie

    ReplyReply
  95. 95
    Miss Bianca says:

    @danielx: *ouch*. aaannnddd….you’ve just convinced me to go out and finally get that Water-Pik my hygienist has been bitching at me to get. He’s concerned about gum receding around my implants. Wouldn’t want to have to go thru’ what you are going thru’!

    ReplyReply
  96. 96
    ET says:

    This TWEET from Debbie Redd encapsulates my thoughts

    Birth control?
    BAN IT!!

    Abortion?
    BAN IT!!

    What about guns?
    Look, banning things never works. People will find ways to get them

    And then thee is whole death penality thing.

    ReplyReply
  97. 97
    bemused says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    It clearly shows how much contempt these ugly white men have for women.

    ReplyReply
  98. 98
    Miss Bianca says:

    @rikyrah: THIS. THIS, THIS, THIS. AAAAAGH!!

    Sorry for the all caps. I am just so fucking sick of white people right now, I could scream. I’m just at the point of, “we all suck”.

    ReplyReply
  99. 99
    Kirk Spencer says:

    @JPL: bluntly, I would be happy to be the test case for that. Crossing state lines for criminal actions is a federal purview, and a state impising this condition is interfering with lawful interstate movement at a minimum.

    They can’t legally stop state crossings for drinking age. Same deal.

    ReplyReply
  100. 100
    Leto says:

    @gvg: JFC, that’s fucking horrible. Thanks for telling me, though. Although, it still doesn’t quite solve the issue of: if it is a person, with full rights, you’re incarcerating an innocent person. I’m thinking of the legal ramifications from that point until birth, not just the adoption part.

    @JPL: I wanted to point that part out earlier, a difference between the two bills is that GA has the provision that you can’t go out of state for an abortion. Essentially as soon as a woman becomes pregnant, she’s property of the state. WTF.

    ReplyReply
  101. 101
    rikyrah says:

    One more day to John Wick 3!!! :)

    ReplyReply
  102. 102
    tobie says:

    @JPL: How so? Is the fetus now a citizen of the state of Georgia? What other legal protections is it entitled to? What liabilities does it carry? Can it be held guilty if it kills the mother-incubator in being delivered? None of this makes any sense. I just don’t get how visiting another state and having a lawful procedure in that state can be illegal.

    ReplyReply
  103. 103
    rikyrah says:

    Republicans aim to flip Roe v. Wade with new Alabama abortion law
    Rachel Maddow reports on the absurd extremity of Alabama’s new abortion law, and talks with Dahlia Lithwick, senior editor and legal correspondent at Slate, about whether Republicans are correct to think legal challenges to abortion bans will lead to the Trump-era Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade.

    ReplyReply
  104. 104
    chopper says:

    @tobie:

    wouldn’t sending a pregnant woman to prison for committing a crime be a violation of the fetus’s constitutional rights?

    ReplyReply
  105. 105
    MomSense says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    Same here.

    ReplyReply
  106. 106
    Sab says:

    @tobie: Wow. Involuntary manslaughter conviction hanging blotting your permanent record from birth. Then your foster parents steal your identity. What a way to start in life.

    ReplyReply
  107. 107
    Aleta says:

    Interview on CBC with Imani Gandy
    https://www.cbc.ca/player/play/1522936387822

    ReplyReply
  108. 108
    Cacti says:

    @chopper:

    Yes. The state would be incarcerating the fetus without due process of law.

    ReplyReply
  109. 109
    Sab says:

    @gvg: How can she give up the child? The rapist also has parental rights.

    ReplyReply
  110. 110
    Leto says:

    @chopper: I was trying to make that point above. There’s so many absurd results from these laws that it’s just mind boggling.

    @tobie: Per the GA law, the collection of cells is granted full citizenship rights. They want it viewed the same as you or I. Absurd? Absolutely.

    ReplyReply
  111. 111
    The Moar You Know says:

    It’s enough to make one think the police have files of dirt on every one of these cowards.

    @OzarkHillbilly: It’s not that. Rather, the “cowards” and the cops have common ground on this one and want this dude silenced. He’s pretty lucky that they just didn’t kick in his door and shoot him; the SFPD has done that shit before and will do it again.

    I lived there for ten years and would never go back. It always reminded me of the Deep South, albeit with a lot of people who vocally advocate for liberal positions while living a life and creating a society (completely segregated – every ethnic group in the City hates all the others – and wired for the 1%) that looks a lot more like Alabama than California.

    ReplyReply
  112. 112

    @Duane:

    If men could become pregnant abortion at every hospital and birth control at every convenience store would be the law.

    A great slogan, but evangelical women overwhelmingly support misogynistic laws and particularly draconian abortion restrictions. Way back when they liked to force young men to marry a woman they impregnated, although he got off light compared to the woman. While this is definitely about hating women, it’s more complicated than just men vs women.

    ReplyReply
  113. 113
    tobie says:

    @chopper: @Sab: I think we should game out what legal personhood for a zygote means — because a person not only has rights but also responsibilities. Right to lifers always talk about the rights of the fetus vis a vis the mother. So let’s turn it around: what are the rights of the mother vis a vis a fetus which, if carried to term, will cause her physical damage, emotional damage, financial damage, etc. I know this is insane. Like everyone else, I’m just mad as hell and want to scream.

    ReplyReply
  114. 114
    Eolirin says:

    Regardless of whether these laws stand, they’ve effectively made getting an abortion impossible for poor people in a number of states already, and they won’t be able to change things in blue states. Fighting these laws specifically isn’t really a fight over abortion rights, because we’re already losing that battle in red states and it’ll take more than defending Roe to reverse that. It’s why Roberts might surprise us and uphold Roe. While overturning it plays nice to a rabid base, it runs the risk of a bigger backlash than quietly making it impossible to actually get to a clinic and receive services before you’re in your third trimester. It’s a lot less risky to just chip away at that then allow this shit to move forward. And it also removes a big fundraising and GOTV motivator.

    These laws are more about the level of consequence brought to bear in pursuit of denying abortion, and the opening up of new avenues to target vulnerable minorities for incarceration.

    This is a direct attack on women’s and minority rights, not just for attempts to control their reproduction, but to be able to arbitrarily punish them for things going wrong with their pregnancies that are completely outside of their control. It won’t take much to gin up a causal chain leading to a miscarriage to prosecute someone with and to find a racist enough jury to convict. That’s the end goal of this stuff. It’s as much driven by white supremacy as mysogyny.

    ReplyReply
  115. 115
    Leto says:

    Per CBS news: Missouri passes “one of the strongest” abortion bills yet in U.S.

    Missouri’s Republican-led Senate has passed a wide-ranging bill to ban abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy, acting only hours after Alabama’s governor signed a near-total abortion ban into law. The Missouri bill needs another vote of approval in the GOP-led House before it can go to Republican Gov. Mike Parson, who voiced support for an earlier version Wednesday.

    It includes exceptions for medical emergencies, but not for pregnancies caused by rape or incest. Doctors would face five to 15 years in prison for violating the eight-week cutoff. Women who receive abortions wouldn’t be prosecuted.

    Republican Senate handler Sen. Andrew Koenig described it on Thursday as “one of the strongest” abortion bills yet passed in the U.S.

    ReplyReply
  116. 116
    Lyrebird says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Yes. I’m a bit younger, but weary, yes.

    Plus the added bonus crazy hypocrisy of these so called pro “life” people… are they making sure no lives end the way Tamir Rice’s did? Lifting up the Castile family? or that gal who died in prison bc they assumed she was faking her moans in pain from some infection in her innards… just let it kill her? What about those people’s lives?

    I know that probably qualifies as “whataboutism” but I’ll still hit “publish” anyhow.

    And yes I contribute to Planned Parenthood

    ReplyReply
  117. 117
    Sab says:

    @rikyrah: I wish you would talk to my congresscritter Tim Ryan.

    ReplyReply
  118. 118

    The next step to ensure the safety of the “child”
    R officials will keep excel files of women’s periods and monitor them. Think its science fiction, they are already doing it for the women in immigration detention. Some of whom may have been raped by these officials themselves. Think what’s happening at the border is only happening to “those people”. Think again.

    ReplyReply
  119. 119
    Leto says:

    Per CBS news: Missouri passes “one of the strongest” abortion bills yet in U.S.

    Missouri’s Republican-led Senate has passed a wide-ranging bill to ban abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy, acting only hours after Alabama’s governor signed a near-total abortion ban into law. The Missouri bill needs another vote of approval in the GOP-led House before it can go to Republican Gov. Mike Parson, who voiced support for an earlier version Wednesday.

    It includes exceptions for medical emergencies, but not for pregnancies caused by rape or incest. Doctors would face five to 15 years in prison for violating the eight-week cutoff. Women who receive abortions wouldn’t be prosecuted.

    Republican Senate handler Sen. Andrew Koenig described it on Thursday as “one of the strongest” abortion bills yet passed in the U.S.

    As CBS News’ Kate Smith has reported, Missouri already has some of the most restrictive abortion access laws in the country. Missourians seeking an abortion are subject to a 72-hour waiting period and only one abortion clinic exist in the state.

    ReplyReply
  120. 120
    Leto says:

    Missouri has passed a similar bill to Alabama’s. They’re all in on the crazy/insane train. They see their five justices and believe it’s their time. So much contempt for McConnell and purity ponies.

    ReplyReply
  121. 121

    We are in a cold civil war, lead by Mitch McConnell since Obama was elected the first time.
    T’s election is phase 2. Now they are not sure of his win so they have started with phase 3.
    The simultaneous passage of all these bills seems well coordinated.

    ETA: Bipartisanship now means give them what they want and signing away your freedom and way of life.

    ReplyReply
  122. 122
    Kattails says:

    Just reading a library copy of “Madame Fourcade’s Secret War” by Lynne Olson last night, about a woman who was head of a large Resistance organization in WWII. Horribly timely historical reminder of what it would look like if the Republicans get their deepest wishes on this. Even prior to Petain, “France had treated women as second-class citizens, refusing them the right to vote, to own or control property without permission from male relatives, or to have a bank account in their own name.”. After the armistice, the Vichy government “…decreed the death penalty for performing an abortion” and hugely restricted women’s rights to divorce and to work. Men as the unquestioned authority figures and women as brood mares.
    This ruling also made me pull out my Revised Standard Bible. Genesis 2/7: “then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.” The Bible has life at first breath.
    Didn’t read all the comments, so many excellent points, must bookmark page. Has anyone mentioned being able to get a dependent deduction on your taxes for being pregnant?

    ReplyReply
  123. 123
    chopper says:

    @tobie:

    the first woman to sue her baby for the physical and emotional damage caused by a bad pregnancy will get my support.

    ReplyReply
  124. 124
    JanieM says:

    @Kay:

    but what ends up happening is they have to remove her completely, which gives her even less agency and humanity. She’s not even enough of a person to act.

    In other words, they’ve murdered the woman. Which bothers them not one bit, in fact that’s part of the point.

    From another angle: I saw a headline yesterday (maybe even linked here) to the effect that if Roe is overturned, the glue that’s held the far right coalition together will dissolve. I’m pretty sure there’s another bottle of glue just waiting to be opened, and if I were a betting person I would say it’s going to be LGBTQ-related.

    ReplyReply
  125. 125
    NotMax says:

    @rikyrah

    it’s done in stages, so hard to say how long – still much faster than the traditional method. Once everything is eventually put into the pot all together, 8 minutes under pressure.

    Used this recipe as a springboard, altered to both personal taste and ingredients in stock.

    ReplyReply
  126. 126
    Kay says:

    @schrodingers_cat (HectoringBully):

    Kavanaugh. They knew the fix was in when they got him. I’m surprised only by how fast the bans are moving. Women were scolded when they predicted this- told they were hysterical and over-reacting. It’s worse than anyone anticipated.

    Heck I’m old enough to remember when the NYTimes Trump cheering section told us all that Donald was an urban sophisticate who would be liberal on “social issues”. Instead, this is exactly the same as a Mike Pence presidency.

    ReplyReply
  127. 127
    Sab says:

    @schrodingers_cat (HectoringBully): We already ceded half the field when we let partial birth abortions be banned without much protest.

    One side of abortion is unwanted pregnancies. The other side is very much wanted pregnancies that had bad outcomes. Serious birth defects with a child having no chance of any kind of pain-free life. Parents are making these wrenching decisions every day. They are about to lose that choice also.

    Listen to that nonsense Trump spouted last week about parents and doctors.

    ReplyReply
  128. 128

    @Kay: And don’t forget the Gorsuch coup.

    ReplyReply
  129. 129
    chopper says:

    @JanieM:

    between demagoguing over gays, browns and immigrants, these fuckers got plenty of spite to hold the coalition together.

    ReplyReply
  130. 130
    rikyrah says:

    Touting conspiracy theory, Trump unveils provocative new site
    05/16/19 10:21 AM—UPDATED 05/16/19 10:26 AM
    By Steve Benen

    ……………….

    History isn’t repeating itself, but it is rhyming.

    The Trump administration escalated its conflict with the tech industry on Wednesday, unveiling a website that asks people who think their viewpoints have been censored by social media platforms to share their stories – and their contact information.

    President Trump, who seems to relish little more than a tweet storm, has repeatedly attacked Google, Facebook and Twitter for what he alleges is their bias against and suppression of conservative users. The companies have repeatedly denied those accusations.

    The website published by the White House on Wednesday took those complaints to a new level, marrying the president’s online grievances to a data-gathering operation that could help him mobilize potential supporters during his re-election campaign.

    Trump’s bizarre conspiracy theories about tech platforms, alas, are not new. The president has never been able to substantiate any of his claims – many of which appear to be based on confusion about how the platforms work – but he and other Republican leaders have convinced many conservatives that they’re victims of rascally liberals at Google, Facebook, and Twitter, who secretly want to keep the right down.

    ReplyReply
  131. 131
    Kay says:

    @JanieM:

    I’m told over and over that I have to seek to understand these people but from my perspective they’re incredibly reckless and they don’t do any of the hard work associated with these radical changes to laws that they seek.

    They don’t know how this will affect women. We’re of so little importance they’ll just let statehouses cobble together some incoherent, fragmented bullshit to govern our basic rights to bodily autonomy. It’s lazy and sloppy. It’s Hallmark cards about mommies and babies replacing the hard work of thinking this through.

    ReplyReply
  132. 132
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:

    It’s worse than anyone anticipated.

    No, it’s as bad as we thought it would be. Those of us who were called ‘ hysterical’. It’s EXACTLY what we thought they would do.

    ReplyReply
  133. 133
    tobie says:

    @Lyrebird: Add to that list the fourth Guatemalan child (a four-year-old boy) that has died in US custody, as reported yesterday.

    ReplyReply
  134. 134
    J R in WV says:

    Well, I think boycotting Alabama and South Carolina and Georgia will be easy. I already hate Coke, rarely drink it if there’s anything else, like ice water, available.

    Home Depot is a little harder, they do carry some stuff Lowe’s does not carry, but I can do that to.

    CNN, will watch them in order to know which advertisers to boycott. Georgia sports teams, easy, already mostly despise them for being evil.

    Delta airlines will be harder, and Hartsfield, as they are the vast number of connections out of CRW. American Airlines does connect to Charlotte, and then to their various destinations. I don’t think there are direct connections from Charlotte to Tucson, tho.

    So, we’ll work it out. Hope Louisiana doesn’t fall off into the deep end, NOLA is such a nice city in the string and fall, great food, great music of all sorts. But the deep south just doesn’t appeal to us in general, we so hated Pascagoula, MS when I was stationed there for shipyard overhaul of my tender. In 1972 they were still living as if it was 1872, and hating that they couldn’t talk about how low down all the black folks were at work.

    Same in Decatur GA when we were there for a wedding. Good friend was best man, told us he (Big guy, LEO) was asked about “How do you all up north keep the Negros from attending your church?” He couldn’t believe he was asked that question in the 1980s. I think it was the early ’80s.

    Boycott everyone you can stand to boycott. Because these folks are evil, and will take exactly as much control over our lives they can get away with. Dancing is a sin, drinking alcohol is a sin… Didn’t you know that? Will be illegal ASAP, just watch! Music is a sin except for hymns, get ready!!!

    Cover yore hair, womin! Ain’t you got no manners!!!!

    ReplyReply
  135. 135
    rikyrah says:

    @JanieM:

    From another angle: I saw a headline yesterday (maybe even linked here) to the effect that if Roe is overturned, the glue that’s held the far right coalition together will dissolve.

    Roe was never the glue.

    WHITE SUPREMACY is the glue.

    ReplyReply
  136. 136
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:

    I’m told over and over that I have to seek to understand these people

    No, I don’t. Not in the least.

    ReplyReply
  137. 137
    trollhattan says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    £4500 Is a lot of toast points. New Monopoly card: “Sommelier error in your favor!” with tophat guy slumped on table.

    ReplyReply
  138. 138
    Lyrebird says:

    @tobie: So it’s not just irony that is dead, but shame and horror as well. A policy gladly promoted by people claiming to worship someone who was a refugee as a baby when his parents sought asylum in Egypt with no visa or nothin’.

    ReplyReply
  139. 139

    @rikyrah: Indeed, we saw this coming. I am surprised by how long it took. I thought it would start immediately after the ascension of the Russian controlled despot.

    ReplyReply
  140. 140
    trollhattan says:

    @JWR:
    That interview woke me the fuck right up. She’s a willful liar and True Believer who should never, ever be allowed within a thousand yards of a mic or camera. There otta be a law.

    ReplyReply
  141. 141
    J R in WV says:

    @Kay:

    …they’ll just let statehouses cobble together some incoherent, fragmented bullshit to govern our basic rights to bodily autonomy.

    No. You have no “rights to bodily autonomy” whatsoever, at all, in any way. Just ask them. Like the legislator who was asked about fertilized eggs in the fertility clinic, can those be disposed of? Of course they can, “there’s no pregnant woman” there to punish!!!

    That’s what this is about, women’s lib is a sin, and they aim to punish every woman with a job, in college, not a church goer.

    ReplyReply
  142. 142
    rikyrah says:

    @Leto:

    @JPL: I wanted to point that part out earlier, a difference between the two bills is that GA has the provision that you can’t go out of state for an abortion. Essentially as soon as a woman becomes pregnant, she’s property of the state. WTF.

    Phuck Outta Here!

    ReplyReply
  143. 143
    Ksmiami says:

    @JWR: fuck the right to control women’s lives lobby- I refuse to be governed by their magical moronic thinking- why even share a country with these miscreants?…America is just nothing to be proud of these days.

    ReplyReply
  144. 144
    Ksmiami says:

    @J R in WV: where do I sign up. We need to go full South Africa on these companies till their pain forces change.

    ReplyReply
  145. 145
    rikyrah says:

    These laws are more about the level of consequence brought to bear in pursuit of denying abortion, and the opening up of new avenues to target vulnerable minorities for incarceration.

    This is a direct attack on women’s and minority rights, not just for attempts to control their reproduction, but to be able to arbitrarily punish them for things going wrong with their pregnancies that are completely outside of their control. It won’t take much to gin up a causal chain leading to a miscarriage to prosecute someone with and to find a racist enough jury to convict. That’s the end goal of this stuff. It’s as much driven by white supremacy as mysogyny.

    no lie told

    ReplyReply
  146. 146

    Members of the military are being rejected at higher rates when they apply for citizenship than civilians. To help active duty military people with their immigration applications bases used to have USCIS offices there. They were all shut down during SecDef Mattis’s reign, sometime last year.
    https://www.mcclatchydc.com/latest-news/article230269884.html

    ReplyReply
  147. 147
    Citizen Alan says:

    @gvg:

    Thank you for that unpleasant flashback from my bar exam about the rule against perpetuities.

    ReplyReply
  148. 148
    chopper says:

    @J R in WV:

    totally. i mean, mainline protestants didn’t get all het up about abortion until it became clear that women were dropping ‘traditional gender roles’ and going into the workforce/higher ed in large numbers. either because they felt empowered to or because the shit 70’s economy forced them to, or both.

    so all of a sudden one of the most basic freedoms a woman has, to decide whether or not they want to be pregnant (a freedom that also by complete coincidence helps enable social mobility), just absolutely has to be taken away. well, fucking gee, i wonder.

    ReplyReply
  149. 149
    Kay says:

    @J R in WV:

    I saw that answer. “No, because it’s in the woman’s body“. Jesus. Really? You’re just going to wing this?

    They’re terrifying. They’re just pulling this out of their ass as the questions come up? They’ve had this huge fucking MOVEMENT for 40 years. No one did any thinking?

    They do it all the time, too. Betsy DeVos announced the other day that all private schools are actually public schools because they provide a common benefit and she wants them publicly funded. I can’t wait to tell Bernie Sanders. She’s blissfully unaware that she’s gone so far Right she’s now on the Left. She just redefined “public” by decree.

    There’s freaking thousands of them who are fancy lawyers. This is the low quality garbage we get? They redefine whole settled concepts and just pull the rest out of their ass? “Oh, we’ll say something or other. It’s just the definition of PERSONHOOD, upon which all law is based”. Let that one guy in Alabama come up with something. Whatever.

    ReplyReply
  150. 150
    JanieM says:

    @rikyrah:

    Roe was never the glue.

    WHITE SUPREMACY is the glue.

    Until Trump came along and made it okay for white supremacy to be out and proud, I do think Roe was the public face of the glue. Misdirection is one of their best skills (making people pay attention to Roe while missing the real point, in this case), as Dahlia Lithwick said in that column linked last night. But even beyond that, the misdirection is many-layered. For a lot of the big money behind the far right movement, tax cuts and ever-increasing income inequality are really all that matter. Racism and misogyny are just items in the toolbox needed to get there.

    ReplyReply
  151. 151
    Duane says:

    @Leto: Missouri was never a progressive state, but we weren’t Arkansas! Now the legislature is full of the stupidest people imaginable doing the stupidest things possible.
    Whether it’s roads, healthcare, schools, voting or anything else these chickenshit bastards are always wrong to the point of getting people killed.

    ReplyReply
  152. 152
    chopper says:

    @Kay:

    wasn’t the schmuck who answered that question the same one who described fertilization as “those chromosomes and all that”? this fucking guy?

    ReplyReply
  153. 153
    trollhattan says:

    @Duane:
    That governor of yours was the Trumpiest Trumper in the hood yesterday, supporting the hell out of those new tariffs, despite the consequences to farmers, because “these things take time and Trump knows what he’s doing.” Now he’s using his farmer cred to support an anti-abortion bill? Whatta guy.

    ReplyReply
  154. 154
    JPL says:

    @J R in WV: Home Depot allows three months paid leave after the birth of a child. Someone that I know, recently was promoted while on leave. The corporate office is very friendly to females, so you can shop there with pride.

    ReplyReply
  155. 155
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Kay:

    Reap the whirlwind. They have no earthly idea how nuts this will get. All these years they spent harassing women at clinics should have been spent looking at all these legal relationships and thinking them thru because they’re all connected.

    Yes well they’ve been taught that thinking got them evolution, altruism and magnets. They aren’t going to fall for that dirty liberal trick again.

    ReplyReply
  156. 156
    Leto says:

    @schrodingers_cat (HectoringBully): It’s ok. We don’t need native language interpreters, have jobs that are hard to fill, or want to help people who have the desire to try to give back to their country. I’m sure all the white people will pick up the slack, just like they will in all the fields that need picking.

    SMFH

    ReplyReply
  157. 157
    Kay says:

    @chopper:

    “I’m not trained medically, so I don’t know all the proper medical terminology and timelines and that sort of thing, but from what I’ve read, what I’ve been told, there’s some period of time before you can know that a woman is pregnant,” he said. “This bill respects that period of time. The bottom of page five talks about having to be ‘known to be pregnant.’”

    They had 40 years. They’re not going to bother defining what “known” means? They have dodged the practical implications of their ideology for decades, gotten a complete pass on how they are going to enforce this without radically intrusive state power in every pregnancy and they are so fucking lazy and sloppy they don’t even define terms.

    Women who are subject to prosecution have a due process right to NOTICE. They have to be able to ascertain the bounds of these laws. The whole anti-abortion abortion movement was too lazy to do any of that work, so women won’t get it. They’ll have to depend on case law, which is terrifying, because there IS no case law. The plan is to make it up as they go along.

    ReplyReply
  158. 158
    JPL says:

    @rikyrah: After a miscarriage you can also be investigated to make sure that your behavior didn’t cause it. The amount of physical and mental abuse to the females in the state is hard to even imagine.

    ReplyReply
  159. 159
    tobie says:

    @Lyrebird: Matthew, schmatthew. These people don’t care about the Bible. It’s just a pretense.

    ReplyReply
  160. 160
    opiejeanne says:

    @chopper: Southern Baptists are the only “mainline” Protestant church that went down that road. The rest are fundies, calling themselves evangelicals these days. The Methodists and most of the other mainline churches did not turn that direction but now even our conference is being split by these absolutists, albeit on the subject of LGBTQ currently. The rest of us can see where this is headed.

    ReplyReply
  161. 161
    Bruce K says:

    @Kay: @rikyrah:

    @Kay:

    I’m told over and over that I have to seek to understand these people

    No, I don’t. Not in the least.

    I don’t know about you, but at long last, I do understand those people.

    They’re evil. Utterly, irredeemably, damnably evil, and their influence on society needs to be ended, the sooner the better.

    ReplyReply
  162. 162
    joel hanes says:

    @danielx:

    dental bone grafts suck and are at best an evil and unfortunate necessity.

    Apparently our experiences differ.
    Hope things come out right in the end.

    ReplyReply
  163. 163
    Duane says:

    @trollhattan: Missouri Gov. Parsons (R-Unelected) has been feeling the heat from “true conservatives” for being a RINO because he backed a pittance of a gas tax. He’s falling in line because an election is coming up. Not a true believer, but a real hypocrite.

    ReplyReply
  164. 164
    Leto says:

    @Duane: Haha, at least we aren’t Arkansas! should be your new bumper sticker. It’s such a low bar though. There’s 22 states that republicans control, totally. Governor and both houses of Congress. They’re all going full insanity mode. Like you said, any way to hurt their population (roads, public utilities, healthcare, education) they’re going at it full force.

    ReplyReply
  165. 165
    chris says:

    Good thread here. Go after the corporations supporting the politicians in AL, GA, MO etc. Turn off the money and let them twist in the wind.

    1. These are the corporations backing Alabama’s war on women: Link.

    ReplyReply
  166. 166

    In other thoroughly dispiriting news, in the ongoing election campaign in India, they are debating whether Gandhi’s assassin was a patriot or a terrorist. Yes really. Nathuram Godse was a member of RSS the parent organization of Modi’s party BJP.

    ReplyReply
  167. 167
    J R in WV says:

    @JPL:

    @J R in WV: Home Depot allows three months paid leave after the birth of a child. Someone that I know, recently was promoted while on leave. The corporate office is very friendly to females, so you can shop there with pride.

    I’m so glad you think so. But you misunderstand how boycotts work. Every company based in Georgia needs to be informed that no one outside GA is going to shop there as long as the State of Georgia is passing un-American laws harming pregnant women.

    As I said, Home Depot carries a brand of tools that I prefer and use. But now I need to get those tools from some other retailer, because I intend to never go into Home Depot again, until they, Coke, CNN and other companies yet to be identified lean upon the GA legislature to fix this situation legislatively.

    Or until we elect enough Democrats in the GA lege to undo this act, perhaps.

    This is a shame, we intended to visit Savannah, GA next fall, off the list now!

    ReplyReply
  168. 168
    Baud says:

    As awful as all this is, what I find truly dispiriting are the left of center people who find all of this a surprise.

    Sometimes I wonder whether there are liberals who are astonished when the sun comes up in the morning.

    ReplyReply
  169. 169
    ruemara says:

    @JWR: why, in goddess’ names, would you wait for it to be overturned?!

    ReplyReply
  170. 170
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @chopper:

    mainline protestants didn’t get all het up about abortion

    Not mainline protestants, who mostly support women’s rights, but evangelicals and fundamentalists. Very different categories.

    ETA: I see opiejeanne was ahead of me at #160.

    ReplyReply
  171. 171
    chris says:

    Factbox: Which are the world’s 10 most dangerous countries for women? Link.

    USA is #10 with a bullet!

    ReplyReply
  172. 172
    rp says:

    @JanieM: Exactly. Abortion has been an incredibly important issue for motivating the right (the other one being guns). I think a tiny minority of people on the right actually care about abortion or the lives of fetuses (and they’d be happy to get abortions if it served their own interest), but talking about protecting lives gives misogyny and white supremacy a more pleasant face.

    I think these laws are horrible, but I also think this is a fantastic example of being careful what you wish for, especially when combined with the problems the NRA is having. Overturning Roe will rob the right of a lot of its energy. (Not to mention the fact that the nuttiness of the alabama and missouri laws puts Roberts and the court in an awkward position, and may actually help to preserve Roe)

    ReplyReply
  173. 173
    Philbert says:

    @Eolirin: In Alabama, the rapist get’s 10 years while the lady that aborts the rapist’s baby gets 99 years. Now we know the real meanin’ behind “Pro-Life”. THIS THIS THIS

    ReplyReply
  174. 174
    EmbraceYourInnerCrone says:

    Also, don’t attempt suicide due to depression while pregnant –

    https://rewire.news/article/2013/05/06/criminalized-pregnancies-when-one-womans-suicide-attempt-becomes-murder/

    ReplyReply
  175. 175

    @chris: And India is #1. I feel so blessed. NOT.

    ReplyReply
  176. 176
    Brachiator says:

    @J R in WV:

    No. You have no “rights to bodily autonomy” whatsoever, at all, in any way. Just ask them. Like the legislator who was asked about fertilized eggs in the fertility clinic, can those be disposed of? Of course they can, “there’s no pregnant woman” there to punish!!!

    Anti-abortion extremists will be coming after fertilized eggs next, IVF and surrogate mother’s with new laws and restrictions.

    And if life begins at conception, and the fertilized egg magically has rights, doesn’t the state have an obligation to make sure that the egg is implanted and given a chance to be born?

    ReplyReply
  177. 177
    Kent says:

    From another angle: I saw a headline yesterday (maybe even linked here) to the effect that if Roe is overturned, the glue that’s held the far right coalition together will dissolve.

    No chance. Abortion isn’t even in the bible and wasn’t even something fundies concerned themselves with until the 1970s. It’s about identity politics. I’ve lived in the South and trust me, half the people who say they are voting on abortion really don’t give a flying fuck about abortion. What they have learned is that abortion (and guns) are the two culturally acceptable signifiers one can use to state that “I’m a flaming asshole conservative.” Back in the 60s one could still be an overt white supremacist and talk about ‘the niggers’. By the 1970s that was more or less passe, at least in public. So being anti-abortion served the same purpose.

    If abortion is totally outlawed throughout the south they’ll just move on to some new issue generated out of whole cloth and everyone will follow the lead of which ever white/racist/evangelical politican/preacher is taking the lead on this sort of thing. LGBT rights, immigration, public education, who the hell knows.

    ReplyReply
  178. 178
    chopper says:

    @opiejeanne:

    my bad, wrong choice of word(s).

    ReplyReply
  179. 179
    Ksmiami says:

    @Kay: if it’s any small consolation, as a large shareholder of Coca Cola, I called to voice my concerns and let them know that I’ll be encouraging others to divest and boycott and i basically argued that you can’t be a 21st century company in a 13th century state. I especially voiced my displeasure at their ceo for Donating to Republicans in GA. It’s a small step but I’ll be writing to other investors

    ReplyReply
  180. 180
    chopper says:

    @Brachiator:

    you’d think so. some asshole burns down a clinic that does ivf and i guess he’s the biggest mass murderers in us history.

    ReplyReply
  181. 181
    Brachiator says:

    @chris:

    UNITED STATES – The only Western nation in the top 10 and joint third with Syria for the risks women face in terms of sexual violence, including rape, sexual harassment, coercion into sex and a lack of access to justice in rape cases.

    The only Western nation in the top ten. Damn.

    ReplyReply
  182. 182
    Ksmiami says:

    @J R in WV: it’s what I call the South African approach in fact a global boycott should be the goal

    ReplyReply
  183. 183
    chris says:

    @Brachiator: And that was before AL, GA etc.

    ReplyReply
  184. 184
    rp says:

    @Kent: All true, but the right has spent 45 years using abortion as a cultural signifier and to motivate the fundies. It will take time to motivate them around some other issue

    ReplyReply
  185. 185
    Ksmiami says:

    @JPL: not until they move out- it’s a total boycott sorry

    ReplyReply
  186. 186
    Philbert says:

    Oops wrong copy at 173 from a tweet, but still correct. I agree with all the abortion has been a huge motivator and cover for all thew rest. Bastards.

    ReplyReply
  187. 187
    Kent says:

    @Brachiator:

    And if life begins at conception, and the fertilized egg magically has rights, doesn’t the state have an obligation to make sure that the egg is implanted and given a chance to be born?

    As a biologist this framing always makes me want to scream. Life does not begin at conception. Life does not “begin” at all, it is a CYCLE. We are all part of an UNBROKEN cycle of life going back at least 3.5 billion years ago to the first primitive forms of life that began to form in the primordial oceans. The human life cycle is comparatively simple. We have a haploid life state (sperm and egg) and a diploid life stage (adult humans). Many other organisms have more complex cycles with 3 or 4 life stages. The insect life cycle has three stages, a haploid stage like humans and 2 diploid stages, a larval stage (caterpillars) and adult stage (butterfly). Some marine organisms have four life stages. But in all cases, and for every living organism on earth, you can trace an unbroken cycle of life back to the earliest forms of life on earth. No new life has BEGUN in at least 3 billion years. It is simply existing living organisms cycling and evolving in an unbroken chain of life.

    To talk about life beginning at conception is simply unscientific and inaccurate in every way. Sperms and eggs are every bit as alive and human as adults are.

    ReplyReply
  188. 188
    Aleta says:

    There’s a GOP urgency to please the radical (warmongering) Christian right about abortion and Iran. Rs need their campaign donations and all the help they get from CBN to support Trump.

    Haggee (“economic woes are punishment for abo.”) gave the benediction at the J. embassy opening a year ago (whose 1 year anniversary he has been celebrating this week, particularly on the 14th). Interesting given the T admin’s public announcements on Iran especially since the 14th.

    CBN today
    Iran-US Tensions Rising: ‘They Want to Carry Out Some Spectacular Attack that Will Kill Americans’

    (05-15-2019) In the past few days, CBN News joined Lt. Gen. (Ret.) Jerry Boykin on a fact-finding mission just miles from the Iranian border. 

    When asked what kind of threat Iran poses to the general Middle East, Israel, and the US, Boykin emphasized Iran’s “growing nuclear capabilities” and support of the Hezbollah terror group.

    “The Iranians are reacting to Trump’s declaration that the IRGC (Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps) is a terrorist organization.  They have targeted American forces here.  They want to carry out some spectacular attack that will kill Americans,” Boykin continued.

    Former Israeli ambassador to the US Michael Oren said the US is not Iran’s only Middle Eastern target.   “Not to be just against American forces but also possibly against Israel.  Iran will try and prove that it can plunge the entire Middle East into war.  That’s the only way it can get out from under the sanctions, out from Secretary of State Mike Pompeo’s conditions and so we have to be on our guard.” 
    Oren says both the US and Israel see Iran the same way.     

    “Iran, as the administration has said repeatedly, is the source, the greatest source of instability throughout this entire region and the world’s greatest sponsor of state terrorism in the world.  And we deeply appreciate America’s stance against Iran and with the State of Israel.” 

    These warmongering church scammers tell Trump he is gog’s plan. I used to think he was cynically using that, but now, because of who he is, I think he believes it.

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  189. 189
    gvg says:

    @Sab: Not yet in Florida. Plus, most of the children aren’t from rape. It isn’t an issue if there is a dad who is willing and able to take the child, it’s just some small percent of women incarcerated either don’t have family, family has health, economics, too many other kids already, age or violent pasts that make them ineligible to take care of kids. My own imagination is of an orphan having a child.

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  190. 190
    JanieM says:

    @Kent: You quoted me without attribution, then jumped all over the quote as if the rest of my comment wasn’t even there. Did you even bother to read it, or were you just repeating it in your own words to get it out of your system?

    I suppose furious agreement is better than nothing.

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  191. 191
    CatFacts says:

    @Kay: Unfortunately, I think the legal state you described earlier, where the father has full rights and the pregnant woman is a de facto childlike ward of the state, is in fact the preferred outcome for many of these folks. They’re not thinking legally as we’d understand the term. They’re trying to graft their theology, which in a lot of evangelical churches specifically states that a woman has fewer rights and less personhood in holy law, onto American civic life. You’re right that it will cause all kinds of legal fuck-ups in the real world, because these folks are living in a theological reality show bubble. And they seem poised to drag the rest of us into it with them.

    ReplyReply
  192. 192
    Kent says:

    @rp:

    @Kent: All true, but the right has spent 45 years using abortion as a cultural signifier and to motivate the fundies. It will take time to motivate them around some other issue

    Not really. I have a TON of family on the other side of the fundie divide so I’m pretty familiar with how they think.

    Your framing assumes a world where there are lots of gullible maleable rubes who need to be “motivated” by fundie leaders of some sort. It doesn’t work like this at all. You have to view the leaders as a reflection of the people they are leading, not the other way around. Trust me, they are already highly motivated to hate anything northern, urban, progressive, cosmopolitan, international, multicultural, educated, secular, etc. It will take but a nanosecond to find some new target of their hate. The leadership doesn’t need to “motivate” their hatred, it just needs to target it.

    They will just fling a whole bunch of shit against the wall and see what sticks. None of this is rational so don’t try to analyze it that way. It’s tribal.

    ReplyReply
  193. 193
    Kent says:

    @JanieM:

    @Kent: You quoted me without attribution, then jumped all over the quote as if the rest of my comment wasn’t even there. Did you even bother to read it, or were you just repeating it in your own words to get it out of your system?

    I suppose furious agreement is better than nothing.

    Sorry, I copied your quote from someone else’s quote at comment #135 and then got lost scrolling back and forth between the comment box and such which is tough on an iPad. I wasn’t trying to misquote anyone, just trying to join in on thread.

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  194. 194
    gvg says:

    @laura: I just looked it up on Wiki and I don’t see that it prevents unborn from inheriting, only doing so more than 21 years later. There also are comments about it being very hard to apply correctly etc.
    I am not a law expert, I just know that I have heard of it fairly routinely. I also think the law we are primarily discussing is as terrible legally as people are saying, and I was just pointing out one I thought small detail was wrong. The reason I pointed it out is because details matter, especially when most of us expect to have to argue and persuade other people about this situation. We have to stay correct or find our whole argument ignored.

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  195. 195
    Ksmiami says:

    @Kent: no offense but fundamentalists are a disease

    ReplyReply
  196. 196
    gvg says:

    @Brachiator: real world, I think that would shut down those clinics or cause them to move out, which would actually reduce chances of life (child) for people who want them and have the means…in other words people with the power to scram and be heard.
    Messy stupid non scientific laws that break multiple legal norms are bad for business. Don’t elect ignorant people…..

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  197. 197
    Barb 2 says:

    Science Fiction writer Frank Herbert Dune series — reproductive tanks used to replicate humans or body parts. There were no “females” on this planet as all were turned into reproductive tanks.

    Will the southern misogynistic states kill the female brain in order to create reproductive “tanks”? Female bodies are owned by the state. Take this whole concept to a logical conclusion of “reproductive tanks” like the Dune saga.

    I already lived through this garbage. A classmate was gang raped – she didn’t tell her mom and had no idea she was pregnant. More women died from bad abortions during the Vietnam war then US male soldiers killed in battle. Women were fighting their own war – bleeding out in motel rooms. Birth control pills and Roe. We still don’t have an equal rights amendment.

    We need a Democratic woman President! Women’s Rights are Human Rights! She who says that is my President. Trump is Putin’s President.

    B

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  198. 198
    Sab says:

    @Kent: I have Catholic family who are generally lefties but pro-life, and these new laws are not popular with them.

    ReplyReply
  199. 199
    rp says:

    @Kent: I don’t know if they’re gullible rubes, but I think the cultural divide has gotten much, much worse over the last 40+ years, largely because of a deliberate effort to create a culture war. And abortion has played a key role in that phenomenon. They’re “highly motivated” because of Limbaugh and Ailes and Murdoch and Hannity and Robertson and Schlafly, et al. Those people tapped into something that was already there, but they also amplified it significantly.

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  200. 200
    J R in WV says:

    @rp:

    All true, but the right has spent 45 years using abortion as a cultural signifier and to motivate the fundies. It will take time to motivate them around some other issue

    Nope. A month of regular Sunday instruction sets from their pulpits, and they will all have been reprogrammed to hate — whatever their godly masters identify as the new crusade. I can’t guess what that will be?

    Perhaps stoning people wearing clothes woven of multiple fibers? Linen / cotton jackets? Unholy! Stone them like Moses told us to!! Just a wild guess, but something crazed like that.

    ReplyReply
  201. 201
    Kent says:

    @Sab: I don’t think this is a Catholic thing anymore, or ever really was in the south. I doubt many (if any) of the legislators and activists jamming these laws through in GA and AL are Catholic. It is a different thing than say Catholics in Boston or Chicago being pro-life but otherwise continuing to support Dem candidates and agendas.

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  202. 202
    Sab says:

    @CatFacts: Originalists would prefer this. That’s what the Founders wanted.

    I would like to see lobbyist Ginnie Thomas lose her right to vote because that’s how the Founders saw things.

    ReplyReply
  203. 203
    Sab says:

    @Kent: I think you are correct on that. I am in the midwest.

    ReplyReply
  204. 204
    Kent says:

    @Sab: I have right wing fundie relatives who are 20-something guys are are also complete gun nuts and will shoot anything that moves. They will tell you that they are pro-life simply because that is their tribe but the amount of actual ethical thought that has gone into their pro-life position is about zero. They will also be happy to screw any woman who stands still long enough to be caught and didn’t run when she saw the MAGA hat coming. At the most they are pro-life because it annoys the “libs.” I remember that at our last family reunion a couple of them snuck out to go to a nearby gun show and then a field trip to a local strip club.

    This is completely different from the educated Catholic liberals who struggle with their church doctrine on this topic and other topics like birth control.

    ReplyReply
  205. 205
    Duane says:

    @Leto: Public utilities you say. Missouri’s legislature is diligently working to stop wind energy producers from gaining easements. Apparently, Jesus loves coal and higher rates. Pro-business my ass. Republicans are pro-nothing.

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  206. 206
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @gvg: At this moment, an unborn child is not a person and cannot directly inherit anything. That being said, one can leave property to a trust that is for the benefit of the child.* The child must actually be born alive to receive anything.

    *This is seriously simplified and specifics will vary from state to state.

    ReplyReply
  207. 207
    EmbraceYourInnerCrone says:

    Also lets call it what it is, it’s NOT pro-life.
    It’s Pro-Forced Birth

    ReplyReply
  208. 208
    matryoshka says:

    @Kay:

    They have dodged the practical implications of their ideology for decades, gotten a complete pass on how they are going to enforce this without radically intrusive state power in every pregnancy and they are so fucking lazy and sloppy they don’t even define terms.

    Isn’t this kind of the point, Kay? They keep it all nebulous so they can apply the “rules” at will, or use them against some people but not others.

    ReplyReply
  209. 209

    @EmbraceYourInnerCrone: How about anti-women? Its simpler and it happens to be true.

    ReplyReply
  210. 210
    Groucho48 says:

    @Kirk Spencer:

    If Trump gets another SC pick or two, I can see national Republicans brushing off the Fugitive Slave Act, changing the wording a bit, to force states where abortions are legal to return, in custody, woman who came from no abortion states.

    ReplyReply

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