Folks,
In case you are a Deep Space Nine nut like myself, or even just a Trekker/ie/whatever you want to label yourself, tonight is an opportunity to see the new documentary on DS9 on the big screen. From my understanding, it’s a one-night special event, but who knows what happens if it proves popular.
I’ve got my tickets and plan to enjoy a nice adult beverage and semi-real food. Should be a lot of fun!
It’s being run by Fathom events, those wonderful folks who bring the Met Opera to theaters on select Saturdays.
For more info on the documentary: https://ds9documentary.com/
For more info on tickets or other Fathom events: https://www.fathomevents.com/
I do so love DS9 and consider it superior to Babylon 5 in most but not all ways – flame away! I’ve always admired the courage of both shows’ creative teams, along with Twin Peaks’, in setting up the future of quality narrative television. We so needed it, even if I’m not enthused by many popular current programs. For me, my preference grows from DS9’s focus on religion, belief, and identity, and many of the major characters have amazing character evolution.
Open Thread, feel free to discuss any and all things Trek-related.
TenguPhule
Quorn and Kale chips?
TenguPhule
DS9 is a thoughtless man’s B5.
ruemara
Superior to Babylon 5? … Did you even watch Babylon 5? I adored both shows but you know, they’re not in competition. Both made salient points.
Cermet
Since comparing these rather different SF show’s isn’t exactly accurate – one was a “spin-off” and the other a freely standing show, they do have a lot in common; however, the major difference was Babylon 5 was a story arc that span five years and did do the five year story. DS-9 did have a number of much shorter arc’s and except for being based on Star Trek, didn’t exactly have an over arcing story line that drove the entire series in exactly the same way (yes, the laughable gods living within a worm hole often appeared but only became really relevant towards the end.) Be that as it may, both where excellent shows that defined long term story lines setting the stage for similar shows later (GoT, as well.)
B-5 really did treat religion far more deeply as well as the fact that economics really drives everyone – and even aliens (guess that explains one type of probing – lol.)
lamh36
DAMN! They got Bill Nye cussing ???
https://twitter.com/k_jeanpierre/status/1128009703123038211?s=21
VeniceRiley
I loved both shows for their occasionally having lesbian characters. B5 was superior in that regard, and was only stymied by the exit of Claudia Christian. I love SF in general, but I’d never pit two of my beloved kids in a popularity contest li … Oh, F it. B5 was better.
MattF
For everyone’s information– the whole DS9 series is currently on Netflix.
Adam L Silverman
@lamh36: Have you considered this format for your next in graduate seminar presentation?
Here you go:
TenguPhule
B5 also has the honor of having the most relevant quotes for what’s been happening these last 11 years.
Only in this timeline, the Shadows won.
Boussinesque
Going to have to weigh in on the B5 side as well, although I also adored both shows. G’kar and Vir and Dr. Stephen and all the other main characters in B5 stuck with me a lot more than any of the ones from DS9.
lamh36
@Adam L Silverman: I don’t know if the cussing would be extra credit or not ??
“Safety glasses on motherfu..”
???
Alain
I did update the post text a bit to explain my reasons. Like @VeniceRiley and so many others, I love them both. It’s just that one speaks more to me than the other and it’s always been that way. I’ve watched them both in the past two years, and these opinions have not changed so much as refined over time.
Dorothy A. Winsor
I loved B5.
I blogged today about the endless argument over writing by plotting a story ahead of time vs by the seat of your pants. I’m a plotter. You can’t write a show with a 5 year arc unless you do some serious plotting ahead of time. Not everything, obviously. But the big stuff.
lamh36
Apparently he had more ???
“Here’s some fuqn mentos”???
Oh Lordt i need an adult Bill Nye science show!!!
https://twitter.com/ladybugandchat/status/1127996683478913024?s=21
Dorothy A. Winsor
My internet was down for several hours so I’m just catching up. Holy crap, Tom Cotton re the tariffs.
“There will be some sacrifice on the part of Americans, I grant you that. ”
I think he means “some Americans will be sacrificed.”
TenguPhule
John Roberts, like the rest of his Republican brethren on the court can FOAD.
trollhattan
@Adam L Silverman: @lamh36:
Man is a treasure! :-)
Just wish the topic weren’t so dire. Donny and Mitch will kill us all.
Watching that was a little like learning Fred Rogers cussed from that sweet biopic on him.
Millard Filmore
@Boussinesque: I liked the first boss of B5, Michael O’Hare as Commander Jeffrey Sinclair. Its a shame personal problems forced him to drop out of the series. Bruce Boxleitner always struck me as being too … “happy” … for the role.
Ceci n est pas mon nym
I’m afraid I never saw B5 and only watched a couple of episodes of DS9, so I can’t comment much on either. Regarding DS9 though, I was just glad to see Avery Brooks get a quality role, after previously being introduced to TV audiences as Hawk in “Spenser For Hire”. I actually love Robert Parker, his novels are a guilty pleasure for us, but Hawk is a ridiculously unrealistic character. I felt bad for anybody trying to turn him into a human, though Brooks did a great job.
trollhattan
In other science news, Plastic waste for everybody, everywhere!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Millard Filmore: Yeah, but then as I recall, he comes back to deliver lines like “You mean *I* stole Babylon 4?” It was 4, wasn’t it? and it was him rather than Boxleitner?
Boussinesque
@Millard Filmore: I don’t necessarily disagree, but Boxleitner grew on me over the years, despite his tendency to chew the scenery. I’m glad they were able to work Sinclair into the overall arc in a sensible way with his periodic later appearances, and I think he did the elder statesman vibe a lot better.
Millard Filmore
@Dorothy A. Winsor: Have we given up on the idea that Congress gets to set tariffs?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Import-Export_Clause
ET
I like both DS9 and B5 but wasn’t sure anyone but me remembered B5.
Roger Moore
@Dorothy A. Winsor:
One of the impressions I get is that being a screenwriter, especially on a TV show, inherently requires some skill as a pantser. Even if you have a wonderful plan, actors will quit your show because they got hired to do something else, or fans will fall in love with a minor character and demand more of him, or you’ll decide an actor is fantastic and deserves a more prominent role. It was always interesting to me hearing how behind the scenes stuff on a favorite show wound up driving what happened on the screen, even on shows that were carefully plotted. A screenwriter has to anticipate some of that happening and have the skill to adapt.
Formerly disgruntled in Oregon
@Millard Filmore: Great question – would be nice if good questions like this were asked more often!
rikyrah
@lamh36:
They done pushed Bill Nye to the limits…
BWA HA HA HA AH AH AH
rikyrah
@lamh36:
lamh,
Wendell Piece starring in Death of Salesman in LONDON right now!
The Young Vic Theater
Doug R
DS9 felt tedious after a couple of seasons, I think because it was all set on the same place, no movement. The best episodes followed the Ferengi on various adventures.
I hear they got a ship later in the show, but by that time I had stopped watching.
Brachiator
Very cool! On my commute I will be listening to the Nerd O Rama podcast on DS9 and this documentary. Available for streaming, I think:
But as for this:
I loved both shows, which sought to accomplish different things. It is pointless to insist on some competitive either/or.
And I remember back in the day when idiot fanboys tried to dismiss both shows because they were set on space stations, and not glittery phaser firing star ships.
I also remember both shows getting bashed by people who insisted that in the future there would be no religion. I am not religious at all, but I appreciate the way both shows dealt with this issue. It made sense.
Ben Cisco
Loved both shows. Hoping I can make it home in time to catch the movie.
Cacti
OT but breaking. Jimmy Carter has broken his hip from a fall at home, underwent surgery this morning.
ruemara
@ET: No B5 has been a major cultural icon for me. PsiCorps is mother & father. Vir Cotto’s evolution from naive and sweet to knowledgeable but committed to a new, moral Centauri. The final send off to Sinclair, the Narn attempts to retain their culture and rebuild home. The Minbari and their metaphysical decisions to end the Earth Minbari war. All stuck with me. I wish more people knew the series.
My wish for the current administration: “I’d like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave, like this [smiles and waves his fingers at Morden]. Can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?”
Brachiator
@Roger Moore:
JMS, creator of Babylon 5, and writer of most of the series episodes, wrote about creating trap doors where he could change things around if circumstances made it necessary. Most of the time, it worked, although there were times when the transition or fix was not seamless.
And sometimes, you really like a character, and the replacement just is not the same, even with good writing and direction.
ETA: I had the great pleasure of watching a late season Babylon 5 episode, with show creator JMS, a couple of cast members, and a bunch of fans, at a West Los Angeles restaurant back in the day. And I am not a fan convention or big event person, but this was a great, relative low key watching party.
rikyrah
@Cacti:
hope he recovers . At that age, falls are serious business.
SFBayAreaGal
I loved both shows. For me DS9 edges out B5.
DS9 was not afraid to show a healthy relationship between grandfather, father, and son. Seeing a black father and son hug and kiss each other and show their love for each other was beautiful.
I miss DS9. I wish it had continued. Everytime I heard the overture and saw the opening credits I was ready to see what would happennext to Sisko, Jake, Kira, Dax, Bashir, Quark, Garick, Odo, Rom, and Nog.
Tim C.
My nine year old and I have started watching it on netflix He has done me proud by correctly identifying as the best of the Treks. I can’t quite say that for certain as I have yet to watch “Discovery” but certainly I agree with that if limited to the ones I’ve seen.
Also, back in the 90s, my first internet home was alt..babylon-5 Damn I’m old.
chopper
@Millard Filmore:
congress certainly did. all the president has to do is whisper the magic words “national security”.
Brachiator
@ruemara:
Very well said. And Londo Mollari and G’Kar are more vivid than most characters in tv sci fi. Hell, Londo’s life was a tragedy.
Oh hell, yes!
SiubhanDuinne
Reposted from downstairs:
Damn. Jimmy Carter fell this morning and broke his hip. He’s recovering from surgery now, according to a statement from The Carter Center.
Wishing him a full, speedy, and comfortable recovery. But damn.
J R in WV
@rikyrah:
He has a lot of willpower, and is in great shape for his age. He shot a spring gobbler a month or so ago in the GA woods, which is hard for anyone. So I’m optimistic. Hoping with you that he makes a full recovery. He obviously knows to do what the medical folks tell him to do, so still optimistic.
ETA fics speling
zhena gogolia
@Adam L Silverman:
Fabulous!
Chyron HR
@Cacti:
I’m sure 4chan is already turgid with excitement at the chance to replace him with a Republican.
J R in WV
Wow. Bill Nye, Science Guy, is woke and angry!!!
Good job, Mr Nye!!!
Kent
For me B5 > DS9 but of all the Star Trek series I liked DS9 the best and Voyager the least.
But for late 90s SciFi my favorite was actually Stargate SG-1. Especially the more early years before it became all about the Ori.
What is the best current SciFi series available today? I’ve heard the Expanse is good. I started it a couple years ago. Maybe need to go back and pick it back up from the begining.
Kent
I’m on a school district server that blocks twitter. What’s Bill Nye saying?
Archon
Both shows are tremendous. I do feel DS9 was more grounded and easier to understand then the lofty scifii B5 material. Also, the acting and writing (specifically regarding character interactions) on DS9 was superior and it isn’t close.
The premise and story arc of Babylon 5 I think was more interesting but overall I think DS9 was a slightly better show.
CliosFanBoy
I loved both. Both got better after Season 1. But by the end of the Dominion War in DS9 I’d take it over B5. IMHO, DS9 was the best of all the Star Trek TV series… And I thought the final season of B5 sputtered out.
Now let’s talk about how great Farscape was!!!!!!
Dorothy A. Winsor
@J R in WV: Jimmy Carter has had the best ex-presidency I’ve seen in my lifetime. May it continue.
SiubhanDuinne
@J R in WV:
From the statement put out by The Carter Center earlier. It made me laugh.
chris
Deleted. Damn, SD.
Catherine D.
@rikyrah: That version of Salesman got raves from BBC Radio 4’s Saturday Review podcast. Wish I could see it!
One person said Wendell Pierce is this generation’s Wiilie Lomax.
Just One More Canuck
Garek on DS9 was one of those characters who was supposed to be a one-off, but kept getting brought back. He had the great line, “I believe in coincidences, I just don’t trust coincidences”
Then again, Vir Cotto complained about being nibbled to death by cats, so there’s that
justawriter
@Kent: I am enjoying Killjoys. This summer will see its fifth and final season.
A Good Woman
Both shows were good, for different reasons.
I was hooked on DS9 from the first episode when Kira told Quark to get his hand off her thigh or she’d break his arm. The standout episode was “In the Pale Moonlight”, which Majel greenlighted after the producers met with her. There was silliness too, but I enjoyed the series.
B5 pre-Sheridan (Boxleitner) had me. I liked Sinclair better. However, as the story progressed and we learn the truth about the Minbari surrender, the role played by the Ancient races, and the Shadow War I stayed hooked. And ALL those races with the plotting and maneuvering!
Neither series was one dimensional, IMO. I happily watched both. YMMV.
Another Scott
In other news, related to the Bill Nye tweet, Phys.org:
(Emphasis added.)
It’s a good thing that someone wants the USA to fight a war over oil right now, eh?
:-/
Cheers,
Scott.
VeniceRiley
@Kent: The Expanse is kickass awesome. SciFi killed it but new seasons will be on Amazon Prime Video, where you can see the past seasons. Warning it started kinda slow, but really got going. I am a fan of Shoreh Aghdashloo tossing unbeeped F BOMBS amongst her character’s political acumen and general snarkiness.
swiftfox
Tried for 2 years to get into DS9 but just couldn’t. Thought Bashir was especially irritating and Kira a bit less. I did hear it got better towards the end. Voyager had better characters but the setup severely limited the number of possible story lines.
Ben Cisco
@Kent: The Expanse is great and worth catching up on. One series that was pretty good and killed off before its time is Dark Matter.
Percysowner
I watched both shows, but B5 has a special place in my heart. There are scenes I remembered 20 years after I first saw them, speeches that I still remember (mostly by G’Kar). I loved the character arcs of Londo, G’Kar and Vir. The humans had less of an arc, but I still enjoyed their stories.
B5 is currently available on Amazon Prime video, free with Prime membership, in case anyone wants to see both series, or just catch up on B5 again.
Ben Cisco
@Just One More Canuck: That was Londo.
ruemara
@justawriter: Man I love that show.
@Ben Cisco: Loved that one too.
Boussinesque
@VeniceRiley: Chrisjen is easily one of my favorite characters in The Expanse, and I love that the show has a political badass as a major character. Super stoked for season 4 sometime this summer.
TenguPhule
Sucks to be an American exporter these days.
Just One More Canuck
@Ben Cisco: oops – thanks
piratedan
sheesh, next thing you know, someone is gonna drop the mic and mention Farscape….
ruemara
@piratedan: Farscape was the bomb & Ben Browder is short-changed for being as famous as he should be.
What, no love for Andromeda?
Yutsano
@TenguPhule: That’s…actually a pretty weak response. The problem is China doesn’t import nearly as many US goods as the US imports from China. China can’t win an out and out tariff war. And they know it. Not to mention there are fewer countries that can pick up the slack for those goods if we’re talking the specialty type tech. I hate to say it, but he’s actually putting the screws on the Chinese Communist Party. When he’s not admiring their methods anyway.
Yutsano
@ruemara: Farscape was amazing and I wanted to be Pilot when I grew up.
VeniceRiley
@Tim C.:
Mine too! I loved that JMS would come to the moderated usenet group and chat with us.
TenguPhule
@Yutsano: Since our two main exports to China were pork and soybeans and Trump already managed to gut both of those, next come the luxury products and manufactured goods. The scale may not be the same, but its gonna hurt mainly red states because of the targeting.
Trump is employing carpet bombing.
China is replying with guided missiles.
ruemara
@Yutsano: I was torn. Pau Zotoh Zaahn or Chiana. Not that I didn’t love Aeryn, but I jibe most to those two.
Dorothy A. Winsor
@Percysowner: I loved that Ivanova said she thought she was in love with Talia. That was way ahead of its time.
TenguPhule
And Trump is doubling down to his doubling down.
So, all imports from China will be under tariffs.
Global Trade War confirmed.
Gods help us all.
Doug R
Well, be glad the Canadian retalitory tariffs are carefully chosen and include American Bourbon, just for Mitch I’m sure.
Be glad the tariffs didn’t include shot in Canada Sci-fi, or the world would be a sadder place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_science_fiction_TV_and_radio_shows_produced_in_Canada
Jay
@TenguPhule:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_largest_trading_partners_of_China
Jay
@Doug R:
And the tariffs and sanctions are ensuring that NAFTA 2.0 is doomed.
So NAFTA 1.0 remains in place and won’t be renegotiated.
Yutsano
@ruemara: Chiana was always played as too much of a tart for me. But assassin monk? That fits my wheelhouse!
@TenguPhule: Because of course he is. It’s time for Congress to get some huevos.
Mike Furlan
@TenguPhule:
B5 had the better cast.
debbie
I haven’t seen enough of B5 so I can’t compare, but I love DS9 the best of any Trek series. There’s a local broadcast channel here (Heroes and Icons) that runs an episode of each series every week night, so I’ve seen every episode more than once. It’s helped me appreciate TNG more, but nothing tops DS9. It doesn’t bother me that they’re all stuck on a space station; it just gives plenty of time for character development which is seriously lacking in the other series.
TenguPhule
@Mike Furlan: Hell, they had better writers. And higher production values. The amount of detail that went into developing so many unique alien cultures that actually felt authentic was nothing short of amazing then and now.
debbie
@TenguPhule:
i believe I heard him say he’s asking for even more tariffs on top of the $300 billion. At this point, China has already won. They won’t cave, and they’ll see to it that their citizens suffer less than Trump is prepared to do for Americans. How many billions has he asked for to bail out farmers? I’ve lost count.
Jay
@debbie:
He’s asking for another $17 Billion today, but none of that goes to actual “farmers”.
debbie
@Jay:
So he’s up to about $30 billion so far.
Unsurprisingly, I heard the head of the African American Farmers group say none of his members have received any funds yet; he said the USDA keeps telling them the funds are in processing. I also heard an interview with a soybean farmer who has received funds to keep going.
Jay
@debbie:
Funds to cover some of his losses,
Not profits though, and the soybean, corn, pork and other markets are gone.
So, what’s he going tp plant?
More so when DOA economists are fleeing a sinking ship and the DOA isn’t producing facts and statistics any more, it’s become Sovietized.
The upcoming 5 Year Plans, should be just great.
debbie
@Jay:
Actually, I believe he intends to plant hemp.
debbie
@debbie:
ETA: Here’s the interview with the AA farmer.
geg6
Meh. Not a fan of either. Though I did watch more DS9 than B5. The acting in the latter was too awful to sit through.
The best Trek was TNG, hands down. Then TOS. All the rest were okay, but never appointment tv. The only really consistently good sci-fi on tv (if you don’t count TOS Twilight Zone as sci-fi) was the Trek series, IMHO.
Scotian
B5 junkie here, when my wife and I married 15 years ago we got ourselves the complete B5 DVD collection, which we still rewatch periodically. For me B5 was far superior to DS9, which is not so much a knock on DS9 as it speaks to just how well B5 worked better for me. The writing, acting, plotting, the fact they tried to stay within science fact as much as possible ie the fighter launch bay systems, the need for something like a PPG on a space station instead of a slug thrower, etc.
But it really was the quality of the writing and of so many of the actors to do it justice that makes it truly timeless for me. You could even say “woohoo”…lol.
B5 is one of the things I turn to for hope in my darker hours. DS9, while entertaining and not without it’s own solid merits, not so much.
Faith manages.
Jay
@debbie:
Might work, might not. While the market has seen steady growth, it’s also been flooded with new players.
CliosFanBoy
@piratedan: I did earlier in the thread!!! I loved DS9 and B5, but if I had to pick one to watch again, it’d be Farscape, hands down…
Ben Cisco
Made it! Waiting for the show to start!
RSA
@Mike Furlan:
Really? I was going to say the opposite, though with only a slight edge.
Soprano2
I loved both DS9 & B5, but B5 is my favorite hands down. I watched the whole series twice through – it’s one where you pick up a lot of things the second time that made no sense the first time you saw them. JMS really cared about the fans – the reason S5 seemed so thin was that he wasn’t sure they would get a fifth season, so he pushed some stuff into S4 to make sure there would be a satisfying ending if S5 didn’t happen. That series showed what Walter Koenig was capable of, too. I cried at the end of the last episode, mostly because I knew the was no more B5!
If you’re a big fan you should watch the two episodes about B4 back-to-back sometime – it’s quite a hoot.
Tim in SF
Babylon 5 was great. And it was the first scifi to really push a five-year story arc (later squished into four seasons).
I thought it was interesting that it was nearly impossible for Straczynski to sell the show to networks with the idea of a five year arc. Nowadays, when you take your show to Netflix or where ever, if you don’t have a five-year plan for your characters, they aren’t interested. Some credit B5/Straczynski for showing what you can do with a predetermined story arc over five years. Not only would there have been no DS9 without B5, there would have been no LOST, either.
No BSG without B5, though BSG an example of how the *lack* of planning out an arc can fuck you in the final seasons.
LMS
Loved both series. I can’t believe no one has mentioned Delenn, arguably one of the strongest, if not the strongest female leader in SciFi dom. We stand between the darkness and the light.