Splitters! (Open Thread)

A new Atlantic piece lays out Bernie Sanders’ 2020 strategy, and guess what, you guys? We were right — it is about splitting the party in hopes of hanging onto the largest chunk:

The 2020 Race Is Going Just Like Bernie Sanders Wanted
The Vermont senator is starting to think he will not only win the Democratic nomination, but beat Trump and become president.

“There’s a three out of four chance we are not the nominee,” Faiz Shakir, the current campaign manager, said he tells the senator, “but that one in four chance is better than anyone else in the field.”

The Vermont senator’s pitch is a mix of idealism and a shouting anger about the system, but at its heart is a hard-nosed math: he’s the only candidate with a sizable chunk of the electorate that won’t waver, no matter what, so a field that keeps growing and splitting support keeps making it easier.

He’s counting on winning Iowa and New Hampshire, where he was already surprisingly strong in 2016, and hoping that Cory Booker and Kamala Harris will split the black electorate in South Carolina give him a path to slip through there, too. And then, they believe, they’ll easily win enough delegates to get him into contention at the convention. They say they don’t need him to get more than 30 percent to make that happen.

So he’s eagerly gotten into fights, like one over the weekend with the Center for American Progress over a video produced by an affiliated website speciously accusing him of profiting off his 2016 run, and then he’s fundraised by citing the fights as evidence of the resistance to the revolution he’s promising.

So, how does Sanders propose to reunite the Democratic electorate after fracturing it? Easy peasy!

Doubters suspect a Sanders nomination could be the one sure way to give Trump a second term, but Sanders’s thinking is that he could get the same Democratic and anti-Trump votes as other nominee, plus all the people who would only vote for him.

Now, I’m Team Broken Glass, but I’m unclear on how waging a scorched earth primary results in Democratic voters resetting their default to “generic Dem” after the race is wrapped up. (See 2016, presidential election of.) There’s a breathtaking arrogance in that assumption, but hey, it explains the lack of outreach to non-Sanders supporters in the party, otherwise known as “the majority of registered Democrats.”






347 replies
  1. 1

    No not going to crawl on broken glass for Bull Shitter from Vt. Sorry. If he wins the nomination, just fucking install Putin as the Czar.

  2. 2
    tokyokie says:

    I’ll admit to voting for Sanders in the 2016, mostly in an effort to move Clinton a bit more to the left. The primary was relatively early, because within a couple of weeks, I’d grown tired of his act and his inability to explain how any of his grandiose schemes would actually work. His calculation for 2020 is that everybody who voted for him in 2016 is already on board with him, and that’s just not the case. Democrats who weren’t thrilled about voting for Clinton in 2016 had Sanders as their only alternative. This go-round, they have lots of choices, many of them more palatable than Sanders.

  3. 3
    Kay says:

    Sanders’s thinking is that he could get the same Democratic and anti-Trump votes as other nominee,

    Wow. That’s very respectful and grass roots. Bernie Sanders and his team take every Democrat who isn’t a Sanders supporter completely for granted. I love the assumption that everyone who isn’t a Sanders supporter are just a herd of sheep. Harris, Sanders, whatever- you’re all too stupid to make any distinctions anyway.

  4. 4
    kdbart says:

    “I’m a Divider. Not a Uniter”

  5. 5
    Betty Cracker says:

    @tokyokie: You are right. My husband voted for Sanders in the 2016 primary and doesn’t support him this time. I think a lot of folks have moved on. As Kay has pointed out, Sanders’ polling numbers aren’t that great considering that he was the 2016 runner up.

  6. 6
    kdbart says:

    Doesn’t he have to earn my vote?

  7. 7

    @tokyokie:Betty Cracker was also an early Sanders supporter, citing the same exact logic you mentioned above if my memory serves me right.

  8. 8
    JMG says:

    Sanders wouldn’t be a very good President. Since the default setting for progress in this country is “very very high odds against” it’s kind of important that a Democrat be skilled at governance and working with others. He/she can’t just yell at clouds about their righteousness.

  9. 9
    Kay says:

    The funniest part is it isn’t a bad bet. If the Democrats lose to Sanders they probably WON’T work to throw the election to Trump, like Sanders supporters did in ’16.

    The “blue team” he’s too precious to join will back him.

  10. 10
    piratedan says:

    it’s the best political strategy that St. Petersberg?Burlington could provide!!!!!!!!!!!!

  11. 11
    rikyrah says:

    Ain’t my issue, but Mayor Pete is getting dragged by some by the timing of when he came out of the closet. Like I said, ain’t my issue, but it’s been interesting reading about it on the Twitter.

  12. 12
    tokyokie says:

    @kdbart:

    Doesn’t he have to earn my vote?

    No, it was bequeathed to him.

  13. 13
    rikyrah says:

    You were right, BC. That is his plan. I just don’t see it working.

  14. 14
    Betty Cracker says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I voted for Clinton in the primary.

  15. 15
    tokyokie says:

    @rikyrah:

    Ain’t my issue, but Mayor Pete is getting dragged by some by the timing of when he came out of the closet. Like I said, ain’t my issue, but it’s been interesting reading about it on the Twitter.

    Why the hell would that matter?

  16. 16
    rikyrah says:

    @tokyokie:

    Why the hell would that matter?

    I hadn’t even thought about it. I only thought it was important that he WAS out. Not, when did it happen. But, it matters to some folks.

  17. 17
    West of the Cascades says:

    I really, really want to be Team Broken Glass, but fucking Bernie is making that really hard. I hope to not have to make that decision come next November.

  18. 18
    Kay says:

    Dave Weigel
    ‏Verified account
    @daveweigel
    56m56 minutes ago
    More
    Here’s a big difference between the 2015 Rs and the 2019 Ds. In 2015, Trump was the only R getting huge crowds. In 2019, Bernie gets the biggest crowds, but Buttigieg/Warren/Harris/Beto aren’t slouching.

    I know it’s impossible for Bernie to imagine, but some of the Democratic sheeple actually feel passionately about their candidates. Maybe the Trump 2016 strategy isn’t such a good bet after all.

  19. 19

    @Betty Cracker: I never said you didn’t, but I do remember you being favorably disposed to him early on. I am glad that you changed your mind.

  20. 20
    Barbara says:

    @tokyokie: Because it’s so easy to live other people’s lives for them when their issues have never been your issues. See, e.g., the disparity in the response to opioid addiction based on the race of the addict. “Just say no,” versus “Oh my God, why doesn’t the lowest state tax state in the country not have addiction facilities for my poor child!”

    Oh sure, I would have come out AS SOON AS I REALLY KNEW I was gay and YOU CAN’T PROVE I WOULDN’T!

  21. 21
    VeniceRiley says:

    Yeah and (white, male) media weasels are all pushing it on twitter and getting ratioed.
    Helluva thing to wake to this morning. They’re scorched earthers. I cannot stand them.

  22. 22
    James Willett says:

    Indeed, he should be fighting tooth and nail for the support of the “Pres Wilmar” crowd, otherwise known as supporters of former would be “Pres Wilma”, who got her buttocks handed to her by the orange turd, and who’ve spent the time since showing how easy that would be… We ALL know they are gonna play nice
    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/us/politics/bernie-sanders-democratic-party.html no? Oh that’s right, they are the functional equivalent of political born again Christians in possession of all the knowledge, faith, and moral high ground. That’s why the idea of shooting BS supporters (in Trump-like jest no doubt) is being promoted around here by the chief Wilma evangelist, ain’t it?

  23. 23
    Jinchi says:

    I know the hatred of Sanders is strong on this site and he’s hardly my favorite, but that Atlantic excerpt doesn’t read to me like the description of a candidate who’s acting to divide the party. It reads like a campaign happy to be polling above 25% in a field of 20 candidates.

  24. 24
    Xavier Onassis says:

    Can someone explain why anyone wouldn’t push back hard over a video produced by an affiliated website speciously accusing them of profiting off of a 2016 run?

  25. 25
    tokyokie says:

    @Barbara:

    I guess I should have said, “Why the hell would that matter, to a rational human being?”

  26. 26
    Kay says:

    I don’t know this, but I also think if it were a Trump 2016 situation some of the D’s would drop out. The fact is the Republican candidates didn’t have such huge fucking egos and had stepped back and joined forces they might have had a better nominee. I know this verboten in our shitty, nasty, winner take all culture but people actually can join with other people in a common effort that doesn’t promote their individual narrow interest.

  27. 27
    Barbara says:

    @VeniceRiley: I am mostly on a twitter boycott. I don’t see how twitter advances any cause I really care about, ergo, I don’t waste my time anymore, and it is mostly a waste of time. Now, I waste my time playing word games and puzzles. It’s much more zen. Oh, and BJ, but it’s not as zen so I am trying to go for smaller doses.

  28. 28
    Aleta says:

    So, win by wholesale destruction? It hasn’t worked in our wars, but in this case because he’s such a nice guy … you know, once we get to really know him … if we make the effort to understand what’s important … how revolution has to work …. Or not.

  29. 29
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Kay:

    The “blue team” he’s too precious to join will back him.

    Not me. Fuck him.

  30. 30
    Barbara says:

    @tokyokie: The issue isn’t one of being irrational. It’s one of lacking empathy for people not like you.

  31. 31
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    In 2016, IIRC, Bloomberg said he would run as an independent if Wilmer got the Dem nomination. I haven’t heard him say that this round, but I could see Kasich doing it, with Bloomberg’s money, and maybe Shultz’s, and Jamie Dimon’s, and…. . I think odds are a three-way race would go to trump, and a President Kasich would be trump with better manners and the same policies, and judges.

    That said, i don’t know when all the filing deadlines are and if Kasich could get on enough state ballots to make a campaign viable.

  32. 32

    Kos was on MTP yesterday and raked Sanders over the coals for going on Fox. He said it disrupted the D efforts to uncut Fox’s legitimacy. He also laughed at the idea that the people present in the audience were Fox viewers. I was surprised by how critical he was, given that his site is still Sanders Central.

  33. 33
    laura says:

    I voted for Bernie in the CA primary and GOTV’d my guts out for Hillary. Since then, his actions and words have shown me that I didnt do my due diligence in the primary, to my shame. His distain for anyone not white male working class, he’s on the wrong side of guns, of Russia, but the most vile was his silence as the threats against Kiah Morris and her family mounted and she stepped down from her elected office.
    For the rest of my life, I’m only voting for Democrats, real, committed, New New Deal Democrats.
    Bernie just isn’t that into us, and his ego guarantees not one single accomplishment to improve the lives of Americans, a second trump administration, and no accountability or responsibility for the st. of vermont.

  34. 34
    Barbara says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Yes, and it’s a major reason why many of us no longer visit it on a regular basis, but Kos himself has never been and he issued more than one missive stating that anti-Hillary vitriol would not be tolerated. I still go to DK for election threads. They are still the best, IMHO.

  35. 35
    tobie says:

    Buck Fernie. Party elders should intervene and get all the men to drop out. Let Liz, Kamala. Amy and Kirsten show Mr. Narcissist who’s boss.

  36. 36
    Jeffro says:

    Kelly Brown, a former reporter who’d left her job for what she said was the more reliable wages of being a clerk at the post office, waved away her husband, trying to intercede, when I asked her if she’d support anyone else. “You have to think long and hard,” she said. She’d still vote next November, Brown insisted, but it would be a tough sell to vote for a non-Sanders Democrat. “We’re told the lesser of two evils, but at some point, you have to recognize it’s still evil.”

    Give
    Me
    A
    #$%&ing
    Break

    and it’s folks like that who the media will quote incessantly, I’m sure.

    Here’s what I find really telling:

    [BS campaign staff] are also hoping the intensity of the campaign counters the three main weaknesses they’ve identified: that Sanders is too old, that people are scared off by the prospect of “socialism” and that they hold his not being a Democrat against him

    Those three and the fact that he seems not to care a whole lot about non-white Dem voters, has enough skeletons in his closet to keep GOP oppo teams busy for years, and first/last/always wants to beat on *actual* Dems instead of the Trumpublicans.

    Would be nice if our Field of 30 could coordinate on just this one thing: Bernie’s not even a fair-weather friend to the Democratic Party and its supporters…he’s just a selfish blowhard and a useful idiot for trumpov and Putin.

  37. 37
    Juju says:

    Wow. Sanders is exactly what he appears to be, plus too old. I don’t want an 80+ year old for president. There are better and younger candidates. I’m not really on the Mayor Pete train, but he seems like an intelligent, thoughtful person.

  38. 38
    stan says:

    @Kay:

    The funniest part is it isn’t a bad bet. If the Democrats lose to Sanders they probably WON’T work to throw the election to Trump, like Sanders supporters did in ’16.

    The “blue team” he’s too precious to join will back him.

    I have the same reaction. I don’t want him to be the nominee – I am very skeptical of him – but, goddamit, I would certainly vote for him if he is.

  39. 39
    banditqueen says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Speaking only for myself, 2020 is a life-or-death election. At this point I don’t care one bit about peoples’ 2016 dem primary vote, or how they weighed the decision to vote for which ever dem. If those voters have moved on from Bernard the not-dem, those voters have moved on and do not have to justify that decision. I want a dem prez, favoring Harris now. Favored Hillary from the get-go 2015, and Obama from the get-go 2007 and volunteered for both candidates. My only concern then and now is voting rights and get out the vote. And I did not like Hillary’s approach in the 2008 election, but was deeply impressed at how she had grown as a candidate for the 2016 election. Learning and listening are crucial.

  40. 40
    germy says:

    @Juju:

    I don’t want an 80+ year old for president.

    Depends on the VP.

    If the VP was someone I really respected, I might be more comfortable with a geriatric candidate.

  41. 41
    James E Powell says:

    In the early days of the 2016 campaign, Sanders was interesting and I welcomed a lefty voice. But it became pretty clear pretty early that his campaign was all about “I hate Hillary and here’s why you should too.” His campaign achieved more than it otherwise would considering he’s a fringe lefty socialist with no friends in the Beltway. Cf. Dennis Kucinich’s campaigns. But Sanders was promoted and protected by a press/media that made Hillary-hating a requirement for membership in the club. He would lose to just about any Republican in a national election.

  42. 42
    gene108 says:

    Doubters suspect a Sanders nomination could be the one sure way to give Trump a second term, but Sanders’s thinking is that he could get the same Democratic and anti-Trump votes as other nominee, plus all the people who would only vote for him.

    He’s basically copying Trump’s tactics from 2016. Trump had the largest plurality of support, after his racist as fuck escalator speech and that never wavered. He never bothered to make amends with the anti-Trumpers, because the Republican base fell in-line with supporting him enthusiastically.

    Unfortunately for Bernie, the Democratic base, outside of his ardent supporters, aren’t that much in love with him, with a large contingent that hates his guts and will probably leave the Presidential spot on their ballots blank or vote third party.

    The only saving grace is the Democratic primary rules hopefully haven’t been changed too much, so we still do not have a winner-take-all primary system that Republicans have, so the winner of a state gets all the delegates from that state. Plus Kamala will do well in CA’s early primary, so other candidates will have a large enough percentage of votes to keep Bernie from running away with the nomination, until attrition can narrow the field down.

  43. 43
    Kay says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Most rank and file Democrats will though. They vote for the Democrat over the Republican. It’s the same thing Bernie sneers at and it will work in his favor. It’s just very hard for me to accept that Bernie Sanders takes all the upside of a political party and none of the downside. It’s the same kind of “I am an exception to the rules” thing I most loathe in Trump.

    Sanders refused to accept the results of an election. Clinton won that primary, and Sanders worked as hard as he could to put an asterick by her name, in his usual passive aggressive cowardly manner, without actually stating it. That’s a lousy thing to do. It sucks.

  44. 44
    plato says:

    Repost from earlier thread.

    DCCC, DSCC, DNC, etc. all had years to sort out this BS mess and yet here he is kneecapping dems all over again against the worst traitorous thug in office. Pathetic.

  45. 45
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @kdbart:

    Doesn’t he have to earn my vote?

    He was born with your vote, and you were born to vote for him. /s

  46. 46
    Kent says:

    Folks…. It is still VERY early. At this same point in the 2016 election (late April 2015) the GOP polls looked like this:

    Bush 16.5%
    Walker 15.3
    Cruz 10.5%
    Paul 9.8%
    Carson 9.0%
    Huckabee 8.5%
    Rubio 7.3%
    Christie 5.5%
    Perry 2.8%
    Sanatorum 1.7%
    Kasich 1.3%
    Jindal 1.3%
    Pataki 1.0%

    Trump, Graham, and Fiorina didn’t even have poll numbers at this point in the 2015 race. Trump didn’t actually break into the polls until July 2015. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_republican_presidential_nomination-3823.html

    In politics years, it is still VERY early. At this point in 2015 Jeb Bush was the presumptive nominee

  47. 47
    NotMax says:

    Drawing to an inside straight has better odds.

  48. 48
    The Dangerman says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    No not going to crawl on broken glass for Bull Shitter from Vt.

    Got it in 1; there is NO chance Sanders beats Trump so I’ll save my knees.

  49. 49
    BobS says:

    @Jinchi: I agree. Warren is my first choice (like Sanders was in the 2016 Michigan primary), and I’ll vote for whoever the Democratic candidate is (like I voted for Clinton in 2016). But it seems to me like most of the shit-talking this time around is aimed at Sanders.

  50. 50
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @plato: DCCC, DSCC, DNC, etc. all had years to sort out this BS mess

    How? As is so often the case, complaints about leadership are really about the stupidity of voters, and Wilmer convinced a whole bunch of stupid people that the only obstacles to all the essential policies– that they never knew they cared so much about until he bellowed about them– were people named Obama, Clinton and (most laughably) Wasserman-Schultz!. As someone else quoted here a few weeks back on this same subject, against stupidity the gods themselves struggle in vain.

  51. 51
    FelonyGovt says:

    I would hold my nose and vote for Bernie if heaven forbid he were the nominee- but I certainly wouldn’t work hard for him. And he wouldn’t work to get Dem Senators and Congresspeople elected because it’s always all about him.

  52. 52
    Jeffro says:

    @Kent: Scott Walker.

    Heh. ;)

  53. 53
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @tokyokie: It means he’s not gay enough?

  54. 54
    Peale says:

    @tokyokie: Since the mayor hasn’t proposed any policy specifics he’s opened himself to attacks on this biography. Unfortunately, some of those attacks seem to be that the mayor is the wrong type of homosexual (he’s gay not queer and we know how those gays are) and has been homosexualizing the wrong way. I’m actually getting a bit pissed off about it because the attacks from our side seem to imply that there is no future for gays to be political leaders in the Democratic party. Some of the smears about his time in the closet could have been written by some right wing minister, just dressed up a bit to hide the anti-gay sentiment.

  55. 55
    NotMax says:

    Repeating myself, voting for Wilmer (then or now) is voting for a supernannuated Cosmo Kramer.

  56. 56
    Kent says:

    Let’s get real. If by some chance Sanders manages to win the nomination, of course I would vote for him over Trump and I wouldn’t throw my vote away for Jill Stein or whomever the fuck is the Green party nominee.

    That said, I’d be unenthusiastic and would, instead, be spending my political energy working to elect local level Dems and defeating my odious Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler here in the WA-3rd. It’s not like WA is going to go Trump anyway.

  57. 57
    gene108 says:

    @germy:

    You really think an ego maniac like Bernie will select a VP, who could out shine him?

    And would an establishment Democrat really agree to be his VP, after the way he’s gone after the party?

    It’d probably be someone high in Our Revolution or something similar.

  58. 58
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @James Willett: You’re a loony.

  59. 59
    Kent says:

    @Jeffro: And don’t forget “Aqua Buddah” Rand Paul!

  60. 60
    NotMax says:

    Every pixel devoted to Wilmer is a pixel wasted and lost forever. Including the ones in that sentence.

  61. 61
    Chyron HR says:

    “There’s a three out of four chance we are not the nominee,” Faiz Shakir, the current campaign manager, said he tells the senator, “but that one in four chance is better than anyone else in the field we’re a bunch of evil assholes who consider burning everything down when we lose to be almost as good as winning.”

  62. 62
    White & Gold Purgatorian says:

    Now, I’m Team Broken Glass …

    Not me, and I’ve made sure my 2016 Bernie supporting friends know that Bernie is the one candidate who will NEVER get my vote. Let them ruminate on that line in the sand* a while, knowing I always vote and have always voted for Democrats. If these people ( some of whom expressed disappointment with their fellow Berniacs’ behavior at the 2016 convention and after) see no downside they will back him again. Those who can’t stomach the man need to make the cost clear right up front in hopes at least some of his supporters will have second thoughts now, while there is still time to push them toward one of the other excellent, non-Russian troll, actual Democrats running. Virtue signaling what a team player you will be at this point just empowers rule breakers like the Sanders crowd. As long as they believe all other Democratic voters will vote for the nominee no matter who, they have zero incentive for good behavior.

    My 2 cents.

    *Would I actually withhold my vote if it was Trump v Bernie? Don’t know. Don’t want to find out. But I loathe the man enough to make a very convincing threat, oft repeated.

  63. 63
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @gene108: he’s dumb enough to pick Gabbard, especially with Comic Book Guy whispering into his addled noggin.

  64. 64

    What is with all this fucking defeatism about BS? He hasn’t won a single primary yet. It is too early for the polling to be an indicator of anything. Let’s just make sure that the Kremlin stooge stays in Vt.

  65. 65
    trollhattan says:

    Wilmer gets the nomination and Democratic voter turnout in November plummets, possibly surrendering the House along with no fucking way we take the Senate. He can fuck the hell right off.

  66. 66
    gene108 says:

    @rikyrah:

    Ain’t my issue, but Mayor Pete is getting dragged by some by the timing of when he came out of the closet. Like I said, ain’t my issue, but it’s been interesting reading about it on the Twitter.

    1. Most folks aren’t on Twitter. Twitter bitch fests about candidates are not representative of reality. If it were Kamala Harris would be out of contention because (a) she’s a cop, (b) arrested all the black men in San Francisco, as the city’s DA, and (c) is not black, because she is not an American Descendant of Slaves, and (d) her father’s family owned slaves in Jamaica.

    2. Wonkette’s Evan has a nice right up and link to his interview with lesbian Rachel Maddow about coming out. Worth reading.
    https://www.wonkette.com/its-time-for-talkin-gay-with-rachel-maddow-and-mayor-pete

  67. 67
    Kay says:

    @Kent:

    It’s going to be harder than in 2016. Trump is in. His low quality loyalists control the executive branch. There will be planted stories in the NYTimes on investigations into D candidates, etc. It’ll make the FBI working for Trump in 2016 look like a model of a clean democracy. Comey’s idiotic bungling, except deliberate and multiplied by 100. The attorney general is a complete fucking hack who makes Jeff Sessions look like a statesman.

  68. 68
    trollhattan says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    I think the only people who think Wilmer has a cakewalk are Wilmer, Wilmer’s campaign staff and Wilmer fans who think it’s still 2016.

  69. 69
    randy khan says:

    To paraphrase this story, Sanders is going to campaign the same way he did in 2016, casting aspersion on his opponents and not having any good explanations for how he’d enact his agenda. (I’ve particularly enjoyed the handwaving about how he’d deal with the Senate without killing the filibuster, which is 100% fantasy.)

    Shocking.

  70. 70
    gene108 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    he’s dumb enough to pick Gabbard

    Guess going for the Sarah Palin Effect, but I doubt Democrats will respond to her as favorably as Republicans did Palin. And I don’t think many Democratic men will have the hots for her, the same way Republican men had the hots for Sarah.

  71. 71
    trollhattan says:

    @Kay:

    The attorney general is a complete fucking hack who makes Jeff Sessions look like a statesman.

    Which seemed impossible but here we are.

  72. 72

    @White & Gold Purgatorian: Word. He will be as bad for the country as T and he will destroy the Democratic party.

  73. 73
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @Jeffro:

    [BS campaign staff] are also hoping the intensity of the campaign counters the three main weaknesses

    So they’re going to yell their pie-in-the-sky bullshit louder? Sounds fucking fantastic! 🙄

  74. 74
    germy says:

    @gene108:

    You really think an ego maniac like Bernie will select a VP, who could out shine him?

    I meant any geriatric candidate, not specifically Bernie. I don’t know who he’d select as a running mate, but I imagine someone young and sufficiently deferential.

  75. 75
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @randy khan: (I’ve particularly enjoyed the handwaving about how he’d deal with the Senate without killing the filibuster, which is 100% fantasy.)

    even as I think he’s a crackpot, I’m mystified that the one Establishment, Incrementalist (another BernieBot Buzzword I’ve been seeing lately) idea he supports is the fucking filibuster

  76. 76
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @plato: Do you know what those alphabet groups actually do?

  77. 77
    NotMax says:

    Splitters!

    Some days it feels more akin to Scanners.

    ;)

  78. 78
    cckids says:

    @Kay: This emphasis on crowd size is just infuriating, especially when Bernie uses it as a way that he’ll supposedly overrule McConnell: “Look at all these people! When they come to Washington, Mitch will have to listen!”
    Never, EVER, have I heard a reporter ask, or even reference the crowds President Obama drew, especially in his 2008 campaign. They DWARFED Bernie’s. And see how that level of enthusiasm worked out.

    Obama wasn’t one tenth as divisive within the Dem party as Bernie is, yet Bernie will win . . . by magic? Everybody just clap harder, I guess.

    I really, really despise him.

  79. 79
    Kent says:

    @Kay:

    @Kent:

    It’s going to be harder than in 2016. Trump is in. His low quality loyalists control the executive branch. There will be planted stories in the NYTimes on investigations into D candidates, etc. It’ll make the FBI working for Trump in 2016 look like a model of a clean democracy. Comey’s idiotic bungling, except deliberate and multiplied by 100. The attorney general is a complete fucking hack who makes Jeff Sessions look like a statesman.

    You are absolutely right of course. 2020 is going to be an absolute fucking barnburner of an election. Sanders and his stooges would be playing with matches while Trump and his minions inside and outside of government detonate nuclear bombs across the American landscape.

    This one is for all the marbles and the future of the country.

  80. 80
    Kay says:

    @trollhattan:

    Jeff Sessions was too ethical for the Trump Administration. They had to go a couple of rungs lower. You literally know which ones aren’t breaking the law because they get fired.

  81. 81
    germy says:

    @NotMax: Exploding head syndrome?

  82. 82
    Kay says:

    @Kent:

    They know now how hugely profitable Trump Inc is for them. He’s gutted regulations and showered them with billions and billions in tax cuts. He’s their fucking dream come true, and they will do everything but “shoot someone on the street” to keep the gravy train running.

  83. 83
    plato says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I know, do you? Your standard knee jerkism aside.

  84. 84

    @banditqueen: I have watched BS for a long time on immigration. His voting record is as anti-immigrant as say a Sessions or a Grassley. He lacks character. He is too cosy with Russia. I disagree with him on policies. If this election is life and death than BS is death. Not much different than T. Feel free to disagree. But this is my opinion.

  85. 85
    Mnemosyne says:

    @James Willett:

    It’s almost like you were expecting a coronation for your candidate and for everyone else to clear the field for him.

    I guess coronations are only bad when it’s Hillary, right? King Bernie the Backbencher deserves his coronation, damn it!

  86. 86
    Chyron HR says:

    @James Willett:

    You’re an adult. Please use your words.

  87. 87
    Mnemosyne says:

    As I hinted above, I find it absolutely fucking hilarious that Bernie’s supporters are whining that he’s not getting the coronation he expected.

    Hypocrisy, thy name is Berniebro. 😈

  88. 88

    Ahem.

    Alan García, Ex-President of Peru, Is Dead After Shooting Himself During Arrest

    LIMA, Peru — A former president of Peru died on Wednesday after shooting himself in the head when the authorities tried to arrest him in connection with one of the biggest corruption scandals in Latin American history.

    Just sayin’.

  89. 89

    @schrodingers_cat: * then BS is death. And cozy not cosy.
    Sorry for the typos, I can’t seem to edit my comments any longer.

  90. 90
    Another Scott says:

    @James E Powell: A big part of his “viability” in the national press was all the money he raised. The corporate media were chasing after those ad dollars – that seems to be just about all they care about. I haven’t looked in detail, but I’ll bet there’s a linear relationship between fundraising and column inches and minutes on TV. (Even Donnie’s campaign fits – “He’s a billionaire and will spend a lot of money on his campaign, so of course we’re going to give him free air time – we’ll make it back later!!!1”)

    People need to vote with their wallets, and we need to be sure that our campaign finance rules are being followed.

    And, ultimately, we need public financing of elections. Money tilts the playing field far too much.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  91. 91
    cckids says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    The “blue team” he’s too precious to join will back him.

    Not me. Fuck him.

    Come sit by me :)

  92. 92
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @plato: Okay then, how could any of them have stopped Sanders?

  93. 93
    Barbara says:

    @James E Powell: His strength and his weakness is that he doesn’t do nuance.

  94. 94
    Fair Economist says:

    Sanders is correct that essentially every Dem is going to be willing to vote for him given the alternative is Trump. But if he gets the nom the media will be 24/7 on “the decrepit old man who can’t even stand up in the shower and supported war against the US in the 80s wanted to double your taxes for a healthcare plan that wouldn’t even work.” And worse, it will be just standard selective reporting because while there are some distortions, nothing is really untrue. It will make EMAILZ! look tame. That will have a lot of influence on turnout and on swing voters.

  95. 95
    Juju says:

    @germy: I don’t care who his V. P. choice is. That only works if he dies in office. My big worry is mental decline, which will happen to some degree, we won’t know how much until it happens. My mother was fine until 81-82 range, but then she started to have short term memory issues. Sometimes she still doesn’t think she has any memory issues, sometimes she realizes she does have memory issues. I can see the same issues with the current occupant of the White House. One of the big issues, especially with men, is admitting there is something wrong. If Sanders ends up with cognitive decline and won’t admit it, it doesn’t matter who his V. P. is.

  96. 96
    NotMax says:

    @germy

    Affirmative.

  97. 97
    Bex says:

    @rikyrah: Rachel asked him about it Monday night. He gave the same answer he gave in his book,

  98. 98
    germy says:

    Where’s Jill Stein? Don’t tell me she’s sitting this one out… ?

  99. 99

    @Fair Economist: The Rs will go back to “he honeymooned in the USSR.” Sanders’s supporters have no idea.

  100. 100
    FlyingToaster says:

    Regarding polls:

    Right now, the only people being polled are old white folks on landlines. And not many of them. They’re not polling the Democratic activists, they’re not polling the likely voters, they’re not polling the black women who are the backbone of the Democratic party.

    Which means that right now, it’s all about name recognition, and the runner-up from the 2016 primary and the former VP have all of that.

    If a pollster somehow got the phone numbers of all of the readers of, say, Paul Krugman or Charlie Pierce or Elon James White, I’m pretty sure that neither Bernie nor Joe would rank very highly.

  101. 101
    SFAW says:

    @James Willett:

    You forgot “Hitlary didn’t go to Wisconsin” and ” but her Goldman-Sachs speeches” and “Hitlary was just another Corp-o-Dem, like all Gore.”

    Oh, and her e-mails, I guess

    Salvame dios, de estos pendejos

  102. 102
    Bupalos says:

    I voted for Sanders 2016 in Ohio and within a week was cursing that preening fuckface, as well as myself for trusting him not to be a preening fuckface. The strategy outlined here is exactly the Trump angle. Be the only one openly (and credibly) threatening to poop in the punch bowl. It’s pretty likely to work the same way I think. It’s just deadly in a truly divided field.

    The good news is I think Sanders is one of 5 candidates capable of shitstomping Trump, who is going to go in maimed not by the myriad loud ways he is a world-historical insane asshole, but the quiet ways he is a bog-standard trickle-down Republican. I dislike Sanders’s basic personal brand, consider him thoroughly sub-optimal, and worry about this opportunity becoming a one-and-done plus a backlash with someone like him. At the same time, the broad political mandate that would be implied by a Sanders win could be transformative in American politics. There would still be work to do, but no matter who wins there will still be work to do.

  103. 103
    banditqueen says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I don’t disagree at all–Bernard-the-not-dem is vile. I noted that I am not concerned about people who voted for him in 2016 if they now see what a fraud he (still) is. It doesn’t help to throw decisions of the past in peoples’ faces if they no longer would make the same decision. If in 2007 someone had told me I would support Hillary for prez I would have laughed in their face. But Hillary easily showed me how much she had grown and I listened and didn’t think about 2007/8. And the 2016 Hillary is the one I supported and listen to now.

  104. 104
    Mnemosyne says:

    Also, if folks are wondering why the Bernie fans are on a sudden rampage, it’s because they expected that yesterday’s vicious “profile” of Neera Tanden by two Bernie fans would take her down, but instead people are wondering what kind of amoral assholes would decide to call a subject’s elderly mother to get quotes they could use against her daughter.

    The WaPo story is here, but it was a HUGE Twitter war yesterday:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/arts-entertainment/2019/04/17/how-year-old-mom-became-collateral-damage-messy-fight-between-sanders-clinton-supporters/

  105. 105
    divF says:

    @Kay:

    Sanders worked as hard as he could to put an asterisk by her name

    One of the ways he did that was is continuing assertions during the primary that the process was corrupt. That poisoned the well for Hillary (or any nominee not named Sanders). It’s all rule or ruin for him, and I don’t see that he won’t do this again this time around.

  106. 106
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Since it’s an open thread and the west coast people are awake, I’ll try to deal with an obsession. I’ve been re-watching the Coppola-Hackman The Conversation. It opens with a 3+ minute tracking shot of Union Square in San Francisco (the only scene in the released movie actually filmed by Haskell Wexler, who was fired by Coppola early on, but that’s immaterial.) The scene is here.

    Anyway, I’ve been in San Francisco and know the area, but not as well as a native. The scene, according to the script, is lunchtime, in December. Now you can’t close Union Square, so judging by the length of the shadows it was shot at the crack of dawn. But if I have the position right, the camera is high above Stockton, and that’s Geary on the left. The Post St side is higher, as I recall, which is why the right side is more shadowed. But the angle of the shadows doesn’t make sense – it’s almost as if the sun is a bit to the north, which isn’t possible, and most certainly not in December. What do I have wrong? I’m obsessed and it’s bothering me.

  107. 107
    Fair Economist says:

    @Kent: it is early, but Bernie is not a paper tiger like jeb? was. He did pretty well in 2016, and he has his twitter mobs, enthusiastic Russian support ( for whatever reason), and Republican ratf*cker support. He is not a great debator but that did not hurt him in 2016.

  108. 108
    goblue72 says:

    He’s two years younger than Pelosi and only one year older than Biden, but that doesn’t stop none of you dipshits from splooging over Pelosi as Speaker. And if Biden was nominee, you’d all be marching lockstep on how awesome his “experience” is.

    Funny how when Clinton was nominee you all insisted everyone enthusiastically fall in line, but now with some chance Sanders could be nominee, you all talk about maybe not voting.

    Funny how that works for you geezers.

  109. 109
    SFAW says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    He hasn’t won a single primary yet.

    They’re all rigged in Hitlary’s favor against Bernie. Unless he actually wins one, but loses the caucuses, in which case the caucuses will have been rigged in Hitlary’s favor against Bernie.

    Subject to change.

  110. 110
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @germy: Stein/Putin 2020?

  111. 111
    NotMax says:

    @Mnemosyne

    a HUGE Twitter war

    Tempest in a teapot thimble.

  112. 112

    I said the other day that the Iowa caucuses should be telling because of the two round voting system. There’s a first round where you vote your heart, but any candidate has to have 15% to be declared viable. The voters for the non-viable candidates then choose again. It will be interesting to see if Sanders or someone else is their second choice.

    2008 had a big field though not as big as this one. The caucuses winnowed that down to Clinton, Obama, and Edwards.

  113. 113
    Gravenstone says:

    Fuck Bernie. Fuck his supporters and enablers. He is not a Democrat and never will be. The other candidates need to slap his shit down hard and fast, starting yesterday. Bury his arrogant ass before we even get to the first debate, let alone actual votes being cast.

  114. 114
    kindness says:

    @James Willett: Dude is that post snark or are you really out, loud and proud about being that big an asshole? If it was snark, please forgive my not seeing it. If it wasn’t snark, you are the exact reason we hate BernieBros around here.

    BTW – Hillary got 3 million more votes than Trump. Trump handed no one their tuchas. It was the Electoral College who beat Hillary.

  115. 115
    cckids says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    He will be as bad for the country as T and he will destroy the Democratic party.

    Amen. If it’s Bernie or Trump, I guess (shudder) keep Trump – his policies are going to tank the economy & Christ knows what all else, probably in the next four years. Bernie damn sure doesn’t have the skills or people to fix anything quickly, so . . . let the Republicans own it. That’s how I feel now. Later? Who knows.

  116. 116
    As A Matter of Fact,Bob IS My Uncle says:

    Well, if Sanders is the nominee, and Trump is still the Republican, who here WON’t vote for him?

    I’m not asking rhetorically.

  117. 117
    rikyrah says:

    THREAD 😒😒

    The 2020 Dems who say they’re ready to burnish the reputation of the propaganda arm of the white nationalist movement. https://t.co/WLXV2ahNVx

    — Dennis DiClaudio (@dennisdiclaudio) April 17, 2019

  118. 118
    FlyingToaster says:

    @goblue72: And Wilmer is still not a Democrat.

    Trust me, this site would NOT be marching in lockstep behind the Senator from MBNA/Caplitol One.

    Keep fucking that chicken…

  119. 119
    trollhattan says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    You can perhaps reverse-engineer the date and time using this: Photographer’s Ephemeris.

  120. 120
    The Moar You Know says:

    The good news is I think Sanders is one of 5 candidates capable of shitstomping Trump

    @Bupalos: Polling has been very consistent on that – he’s actually one of the few who can’t.

    If Sanders is top of the ticket I’m leaving it blank. I vote for Democrats.

    The country can eat Trump’s dick for four more years, as an object lesson to the Sanderistas. Sanders is a fucking hostage taker and I don’t reward people who pull that shit.

  121. 121
    divF says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    he honeymooned in the USSR

    and Putin has the receipts in the KGB archives. He can use them either to elect Trump, or to blackmail Bernie.

  122. 122
    Kent says:

    @goblue72: Biden is equally problematic and geriatric. Pelosi is a different issue because she isn’t in an elected position. She can step down and be replaced at any time by the Dem majority in Congress if there is any reason to do so. And she doesn’t have nuclear launch codes. A geriatric speaker of the house doesn’t pose the same constitutional issues as a geriatric president.

  123. 123
    SFAW says:

    @goblue72:

    You are SO FUCKING RIGHT, because age has been no barrier to Bernie amassing a stunning list of legislative accomplishments — perhaps the most outstanding record since … ever. LBJ, were he here, would kiss Bernie’s figurative ring, for Bernie’s record of overcoming all odds and forces arrayed against him, to get single-payer universal healthcare serious gun control civil rights legislation important stuff passed into law.

  124. 124
    opiejeanne says:

    @Barbara: Yes. I found the timing of Mayor Pete’s coming out a little worrying. Not because he was 33, but the part where he had already been elected before coming out. I dunno, that just bothers me.

  125. 125
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Xavier Onassis: Glad you brought that up — IMO, that description from The Atlantic is bullshit since the ThinkProgress video doesn’t accuse Sanders of violating any law; it just points out the irony of the rhetorical shift. Here’s a link to it. Nowhere does it say there was anything nefarious about how Sanders reached one-percenter status.

  126. 126
    Cacti says:

    In a 5-decade political career, Bernie couldn’t build a party around his personality and ideas, so he wants to hijack ours.

    The old man and his kiddie cult need to be crushed mercilessly.

  127. 127
    trollhattan says:

    @SFAW:
    Heh.

  128. 128
    Kent says:

    @opiejeanne:

    @Barbara: Yes. I found the timing of Mayor Pete’s coming out a little worrying. Not because he was 33, but the part where he had already been elected before coming out. I dunno, that just bothers me.

    Doesn’t bother me but doesn’t interest me either. He served during “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” and the country has changed rapidly. Was he actually pretending to be straight like with women on his arm before age 33? or was it just kind of known by eveyone that he was gay anyway, but just not talked about? I really don’t know.

  129. 129
    Cacti says:

    @goblue72:

    After your 3-year hiatus, it’s fun to have you back around to beat like a mangy dog.

  130. 130
    chopper says:

    @rikyrah:

    Ain’t my issue, but Mayor Pete is getting dragged by some by the timing of when he came out of the closet.

    damn, you know the opposition to the guy is getting over the top when people argue the fucker apparently can’t even be gay correctly.

  131. 131
    Juju says:

    @goblue72: I don’t want Biden to run because he is also too old. Nancy Pelosi is close to 80, and her job is stressful, but it’s not like being president and her terms are two years. The situation is a bit different for her. I like Senator Warren, but she might be too old as well. I don’t want an octogenarian President when there are younger, better choices.

  132. 132
    Ksmiami says:

    @White & Gold Purgatorian: I’m never voting for Bernie, nor donating/ He would lose 50 states… sorry there are some lines I can’t cross

  133. 133
    Bupalos says:

    Also anyone on here who wouldn’t vote Bernie over Trump if that’s what it comes down to needs to take a break from the internet and work on their mental health and personal issues.

  134. 134
    Chyron HR says:

    @goblue72:

    Funny how when Clinton was nominee you insisted that the human race deserved to die for denying Bernie’s divinity, but but now with some chance Sanders could be nominee, you talk about falling in line.

  135. 135
    Mandalay says:

    @Cacti:

    Bernie couldn’t build a party around his personality and ideas, so he wants to hijack ours.

    There is no “ours” as far as you’re concerned until you knock off your homophobia.

    You’re everything Democrats despise.

  136. 136
    BobS says:

    @goblue72: Also makes me wonder what kind of shit some of them may have been talking about either Clinton or Obama (whichever had stolen their heart) in 2008.

  137. 137
    SFAW says:

    @goblue72:

    By the way: thanks for letting us all know that Speaker Pelosi is apparently running for President.

  138. 138
    Cacti says:

    @Chyron HR:

    It’s like he’s expecting a coronation or something.

  139. 139
    Bex says:

    @opiejeanne: He was running for his second term when he wrote the op-ed saying he was gay. He was elected to a second term with 80% of the vote.

  140. 140
    Cacti says:

    @Mandalay:

    Die in a fire at the cult compound, with the other Bernfeelers.

  141. 141
    Chyron HR says:

    @Bupalos:

    Win the primary and you can tell us who to vote for, dude. That’s how it works.

  142. 142
    trollhattan says:

    @chopper:
    There are rules, donchano.

  143. 143
    Shalimar says:

    Sounds like the strategy a good Russian asset would adopt.

  144. 144
    thebewilderness says:

    @Xavier Onassis: I think that whole 15% off the top for fundraising friends and family is supposed to be a secret. The only reason I know not to deny the fact that running for office has been extremely profitable for some candidates is if your candidate does not want to keep it a secret.

  145. 145
    SFAW says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    The Rs will go back to “he honeymooned in the USSR.”

    Well, those Ukraine girls really knocked him out.

    Of course, now that the Traitor-in-Chief has made it “OK'” (for Rethugs) to suck up to Russia, it may no longer be a problem. Then again, there’s always IOKIYAR to add to the mix, so …

  146. 146
    trollhattan says:

    @Bupalos:
    Ain’t the issue. Wilmer will depress turnout, opening the door wide for Trump II, Fatal Boogaloo.

  147. 147

    @Kent: It’s hard for us to remember how fast and thorough the country’s attitude change has been.

  148. 148
    chopper says:

    @James Willett:

    can anybody translate this into english?

  149. 149
    Cacti says:

    @Bex:

    How nice for him.

    He also got clobbered in the only statewide election he’s ever entered.

  150. 150
    kindness says:

    @goblue72: I’m a Boomer. I’m in my 60’s. So yea, I’m a geezer and you can go fuck yourself. Why is it you only show up here at Presidential elections times and then it’s only to throw rotted vegetables at the regulars and play purity troll?

    I wish the management was more liberal about 86ing obvious trolls. Just sayin’.

  151. 151
    plato says:

    "Mr. Trump is the only president in the history of Gallup polling never to earn the support of a majority of Americans even for a single day of his term." https://t.co/tgmgIZFIKm— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) April 17, 2019

    It goes to show how fucked up ‘polling’ is when compared to reality.

  152. 152
    Ksmiami says:

    @Bupalos: Fuck you/ my mental health is fine and seriously- the nomination of Sanders would mean the destruction of the Democratic Party and I’m not being facetious. so pardon me if I don’t support this shit show fail parade

  153. 153
    Belafon says:

    I expect more than a couple to drop out long before first primary. The field will probably be half this size, and a number of those that remain won’t be taken seriously (I’m looking at you, Tulsi). I wouldn’t be surprised if Sanders comes in third or lower in South Carolina.

  154. 154
    rikyrah says:

    @Cacti:

    The old man and his kiddie cult need to be crushed mercilessly.

    tell it.

  155. 155
    Bex says:

    @Cacti: Which he pretty much knew was going to happen and did it anyway. It gave him the beginning of a base in Indiana. You don’t like it? So what.

  156. 156
    Cacti says:

    @kindness:

    goblue72 is a 47 year old pretending to be a hip millennial.

  157. 157
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Bupalos:

    I think Sanders is one of 5 candidates capable of shitstomping Trump

    You made a funny! Seriously, I think you’re overestimating Wilmer. He got as far as he did in 2016 only because Hillary treated him with kid gloves lest she alienate his base. He finished second only because the rest of the Democratic field that year were nonentities. And still she beat him handily. He wasn’t tested against Trump, and he hasn’t been tested against a primary opponent less forgiving than Hillary.
    ETA: In such a contest, I think Wilmer would turn out to have a glass jaw.

  158. 158
    Cacti says:

    @Bex:

    So his qualifications in a nutshell for POTUS consist of:

    Mayor of the 293rd largest city in the country.

    Wow. I’m impressed.

  159. 159
    Mnemosyne says:

    @goblue72:

    Funny how when Clinton was nominee you all insisted everyone enthusiastically fall in line, but now with some chance Sanders could be nominee, you all talk about maybe not voting.

    Funny how pissed you are that your candidate is not getting the coronation you insist he deserves and is instead getting treated like any other candidate.

    I guess “coronations” and “clearing the field” are A-OK now that Bernie wants it for himself. All hail King Bernie! 👑

  160. 160
    Hoodie says:

    Sanders’ strategy may be flawed because he is not the default people will turn to. An apt analogy may be the French elections, where the center and left coalesced around Macron, who was relatively unknown (had the “fresh face” advantage) and had the acceptable persona (white male technocrat). With this many candidates, I think the tendency to grab on to anything potentially negative in someone’s past as a way of disqualifying candidates is heightened because, in a ways, it’s easier to throw away a candidate when so many others are available. Unfortunately, because of inherent biases about behavior, this can be particularly difficult for female candidates. It also works against long time fixtures like Biden because they have a long paper trail. It tends to work in favor of the candidate who is relatively unknown but meets an already established heuristic of safety, e.g., white male technocrats. This would seem to favor Beto or Buttagieg more than Bernie.

    However, one wild card is the ethnic makeup of the Dem primary electorate. If Harris can show that she’s capable of winning significant numbers of white voters in early primaries in lily white places like Iowa and New Hampshire, solid African American support for her could swiftly fall into place, much like Obama was able to use his performance in Iowa to gain the confidence of AA voters who were previously aligned with Clinton out of history and pragmatism. If she doesn’t, she might split vote with Biden. and the situation will be more fragmented.

  161. 161
    Ksmiami says:

    @Gravenstone: I think I love you… that is all

  162. 162
    satby says:

    @opiejeanne: you should watch the Maddie interview with him then. It’s good.

  163. 163

    Hate to say it but this is his best strategic move if his goal is to be president. We shouldn’t be surprised when campaigns act in their strategic best interests. So, this is a distasteful person executing a good strategy.

    Time for some game theory……

  164. 164
    Ruckus says:

    @banditqueen:
    Looking for the LIKE button!

  165. 165
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @goblue72:

    Again, I’m 23 and I hate Sanders. How does your narrative explain me? Also, as old as Pelosi is, she has real accomplishments. What has Sanders done?

  166. 166

    @rikyrah: Mayor Pete ain’t queer enough just like Kamala Harris ain’t black enough and Obama wasn’t black enough and Hillary should’ve baked cookies and smiled more.

    The rainbow flag is about being okay with living your own best queer life, and being okay with others living theirs.

  167. 167
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    As others as said, this early days and Sandars isn’t the level of a public speaker like say Warren. Not to mention how that out of touch white Bomer thing of Sanders is going to come off when he has to debate a black woman like Harris.

  168. 168
    Belafon says:

    @opiejeanne: I knew my son was gay long before he did. And I can tell you he struggled, and, like Pete said, probably would have removed his gayness, as Pete said, if it had been an option at one point. But, even if Pete didn’t come out as early as he knew, it wasn’t that long aga, espeically in an area like he was in, where coming out not only meant you wouldn’t get elected, it meant you could lose your job.

  169. 169
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    It’s sadly not surprising. I just hate the hypocrisy.

  170. 170
    Ruckus says:

    @germy:
    I could possibly be so motivated but……
    Certainly not the most geriatric candidate running.

  171. 171
    Brachiator says:

    He’s counting on winning Iowa and New Hampshire, where he was already surprisingly strong in 2016, and hoping that Cory Booker and Kamala Harris will split the black electorate in South Carolina give him a path to slip through there, too.

    Both cynical and delusional. The Bernie-dolts seem to assume that all white people (or a vast majority) will vote for him.

    The Vermont senator’s pitch is a mix of idealism and a shouting anger about the system, but at its heart is a hard-nosed math: he’s the only candidate with a sizable chunk of the electorate that won’t waver, no matter what, so a field that keeps growing and splitting support keeps making it easier.

    I will give the old fool this. His supporters are zealots. But this is also a vulnerability, since they seem to be willing to try to bring down the Democratic Party if they are denied what they believe is their destiny. This will hurt them before they get to the convention, especially if they are not close or competitive in some state contests.

  172. 172
    chopper says:

    @goblue72:

    Funny how that works for you geezers.

    you doing the ‘pretend millennial’ bullshit again?

  173. 173
    James E Powell says:

    @goblue72:

    but now with some chance Sanders could be nominee, you all talk about maybe not voting.

    Maybe I scroll too fast, but I haven’t read anyone saying that.

  174. 174
    zhena gogolia says:

    @goblue72:

    So if Harris is the nominee, you’ll enthusiastically line up behind her, right?

    Pelosi is not running for president, if I could remind you.

  175. 175
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Hillary should’ve baked cookies and smiled more.

    Hey, you never know, those cookies might’ve won some votes in the three states where. she. didn’t. even. try.

    Have I mentioned that me liking Strong Female Characters like Sarah Connors and Ellen Ripley is evidence that I can’t possibly be sexist?

  176. 176
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Peale: Yeah, I gotta admit that this whole “you’re doing/did your sexuality RONG” is something that I as a nominally straight person just don’t get.

  177. 177
    Baud says:

    I wonder how current polling treat undecided, which I imagine is a lot of people right now.

  178. 178
    rikyrah says:

    Philly Snowflake (@phillysnowflake) Tweeted:
    @Ange_Amene They’re not focusing on repairing the relationship between Bernie and Hillary voters because they think all the Hillary voters will fall right in line for Bernie. They don’t know us. https://twitter.com/phillysnowflake/status/1118555326020837376?s=17

  179. 179
  180. 180
    rikyrah says:

    Ezra Klein (@ezraklein) Tweeted:
    @jbouie @chrislhayes @daveweigel One of Trump’s real advantages in 2016 was he could distance himself from the GOP’s most toxically unpopular ideas, and he did so often.

    One of his bigger weaknesses in 2020 is that, after four years backing that agenda to the hilt, he can’t. https://twitter.com/ezraklein/status/1118531926212530176?s=17

  181. 181
    japa21 says:

    I think, looking at the top tier of Dem candidates (reluctantly I include Wilmer as a Dem), the only one without a prayer of beating Trump is Wilmer. After all, why vote for a pseudo Trump when you can vote for the real thing?

  182. 182
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @chopper:
    Gen Xer apparently. I believe they’ve claimed to be 45 before. Assuming the “72” is their birth year, then they would be 47 this year

  183. 183
    matt says:

    Honestly, I can’t really get upset about the Sanders camp clearly and ruthlessly seeing the chance they have and working to maximize it.

  184. 184
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Amir Khalid: What Bupalos said about the implications of a Sanders win is true — the election of a democratic socialist really would transform American politics. But I agree with you about Sanders’ vulnerabilities in the general, and that’s why I hope to dog he washes out long before the convention. Because the flip side is also true: if an insane, embarrassing toad like Trump beats Sanders, the Beltway press will wank about that outcome proving that this is a ‘center right’ nation forever. The Democrats would probably lurch right to compensate too. We’ve got a real shot at progressive change in 2020, and we can’t afford to blow it by nominating Sanders.

  185. 185
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @James Willett: go fuck yourself, troll I’ve never seen before.

  186. 186

    @opiejeanne: @Belafon: I came out at sixteen only because I was caught in a lie: I’d gone to the local LGBT center for a stage-writing meetup, but my cell phone died while I was telling my parents I was somewhere else. When I got home, it turned out they’d already called the somewhere else trying to find me.

    I was terrified and crying. My parents are good liberals but you just read some horror stories… when I finally blurted it out, my mom said, That’s it? Jeez, I was worried you’d killed somebody or something!

    If not for that I probably would’ve waited until halfway through college, at least. Everybody’s journey is different. Pete has his own issues I guess. He is a cynical politician, as all of the candidates are, and timed his *public* coming out for maximum advantage.

    Kind of like how Obama was against gay marriage for a minute there.

  187. 187
  188. 188
    Miss Bianca says:

    @opiejeanne: Actually, that doesn’t bother me. I guess I consider that running where he was running, it was merely…sound politics.

  189. 189
    Baud says:

    @Bupalos:

    At the same time, the broad political mandate that would be implied by a Sanders win could be transformative in American politics. 

    They’ll probably just say he won it because Trump was awful and not think twice about his ideology. They’ll do that regardless of who the nominee is.

  190. 190
    tokyokie says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    And cozy not cosy.

    I thought “cosy” was the British spelling of the word. And I assume you were educated in classes that used British rather than American English. So it’s a style error, not a spelling error. But we probably need Amir to sort this out.

  191. 191
    Fair Economist says:

    Attacking Mayor Pete for coming out publicly only after he was successful in politics isn’t going to hurt him among gays. We know how hard it can be to come out, even today, and we know people can still pay heavy prices for coming out, even today. I know people who won’t come out because their families would be apoplectic and try to get tham deconverted, in California, today. How can anybody seriously criticize a Red state politician for coming out strategically?

  192. 192
    matt says:

    The idea that anyone other than a Republican would be scored a ‘mandate’ in the media and establishment CW is preposterously naive.

  193. 193

    @Fair Economist:

    How can anybody seriously criticize a Red state politician for coming out stretegically?

    Same ways anybody can criticize an African-American for not being black: idiotically, disingenuously, ratfuckingly…

  194. 194
    Cacti says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Sanders as the nominee is a guaranteed second term for Trump.

    The GOP practically creams themselves at the thought of an avalanche of general election ads, where Dem nominee Bernie talks about the “success story” of Venezuela, or his honeymoon trip to Soviet Moscow.

    George McGovern 2.0

  195. 195
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud: Well, that’s a fair point.

  196. 196

    @Betty Cracker: no Democratic success ever indicates support for democrats, as we all know.

  197. 197
    Chyron HR says:

    @Bupalos:

    At the same time, the broad political mandate that would be implied by a Sanders win could be transformative in American politics.

    And, conveniently, the rejection of democratic socialism that would be made explicit by a Sanders loss would be blamed entirely on “Identity Politics” and “The Establishment”

  198. 198
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Fair Economist: That was the point I was sort of trying to make, but you made it betterly.

  199. 199
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Cacti: obvious troll is obvious.

  200. 200
    Bupalos says:

    @trollhattan:

    Wilmer will depress turnout, opening the door wide for Trump II, Fatal Boogaloo.

    I’m really having a hard time seeing how Wilmer supposedly depressing turnout is a solid argument for depressing one’s own hypothetical Wimer turnout. I think we’re all getting ahead of ourselves.

    I profoundly agree with the sentiment on here from the contingent of the sane, now is the time to support your own favored candidate, not shit on others, not peer into the future and show your harcore dem cred by threatening to deliberately throw the election to trump to punish America for giving in to a nominally non-dem hostage taker that still broadly shares policy priorities with us. (?!).

    I admit there is a fine line here with St. Bernard, because he really is in the Trump Lane strategically and it’s fucked up that this is the reality, and I’d love it if some better candidates got right on that particular reality sooner rather than later because it can become too late real quick. But if folks do insist on fapping this out, yes, sure, he’s a billion times better than Trump. Yes, you do vote for the “lesser evil” if that’s what presents itself. Like duh.

  201. 201
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Well, in this case, I’m sure the media would also troll us incessantly about not being able to win with a Dem if Sanders were nominated and won.

  202. 202
    Kirtaf says:

    I think 1 in 4 chance is overestimating Bernie’s appeal this time around. He has his loyalists but I know a lot of women who voted for him in the primaries last time who now don’t like him at all as his treatment of Hillary came off as super misogynistic to them. I think he is at his peak right now. As the other candidates get more well known and he loses that known name advantage he will lose some of the support he now gets. He really is too old and his rhetoric hasn’t actually changed much since the 2016 campaign. Also the people he is running against don’t have the same decades of negative press that Clinton faced. She was easy to vilify because of that. People won’t be so receptive to the negative campaign tactics he used then but he seems to be planning to continue in the same vein. I also think he really believes he can sway Trump supporters to him. He might have had a chance of that in 2016 but now they are hardcore supporters locked in to their support in a way they weren’t then. Six months from now the polls will be very different.

  203. 203
    Xavier Onassis says:

    @Betty Cracker: I agree. Thinkprogress didn’t accuse him of profiting from his 2016 presidential campaign, but they did speciously imply that he has been influenced by his new wealth. And I think he was correct to take that as an attack on his commitment to policies he’s clearly been committed to since forever. Also, I can’t find any evidence that Sanders has used this “fight” as a fundraising tool.

    IMO, pointing out differences between your platform and other Democratic candidates’ is what the primary is for.

  204. 204
    Kent says:

    @Belafon:

    I expect more than a couple to drop out long before first primary. The field will probably be half this size, and a number of those that remain won’t be taken seriously (I’m looking at you, Tulsi). I wouldn’t be surprised if Sanders comes in third or lower in South Carolina.

    This.

    It costs a SHITLOAD of money to run a campaign these days even if you aren’t doing media buys. Millions for transportion of candidate and staff all over the country, thousands of hotel rooms to block and book all over the place, staff offices to rent, web sites to maintain. Petitions to collect for ballot access. Once the media splash subsides, a bunch of these candidates will fade away on their own.

  205. 205
    Cacti says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    But enough about you.

  206. 206
    Amir Khalid says:

    @tokyokie:
    Oh. all right. The online Cambridge Dictionary says you are right: cosy is indeed the British spelling, and cozy the American. I reckon the important thing in spelling is to be consistent: choose your side of the Atlantic, as it were, and stick to it in all but the most exceptional circumstances.

  207. 207
    Kent says:

    @Fair Economist:

    Attacking Mayor Pete for coming out publicly only after he was successful in politics isn’t going to hurt him among gays. We know how hard it can be to come out, even today, and we know people can still pay heavy prices for coming out, even today. I know people who won’t come out because their families would be apoplectic and try to get tham deconverted, in California, today. How can anybody seriously criticize a Red state politician for coming out strategically?

    I think it also depends on how closeted he was before he came out. If he was doing the the typical GOP thing of walking around with a blonde wife on your shoulder while slamming gays, that is one thing. If it was an open secret that he just wasn’t really talking about publically that’s another thing. I wasn’t in Indiana 5 years ago so I don’t have the slightest idea.

  208. 208
    zhena gogolia says:

    Every single Democratic candidate (I’ll leave out Gabbard) is a thousand times better than Sanders in every possible way. We have to get this right.

  209. 209

    @Xavier Onassis:

    And I think he was correct to take that as an attack on his commitment to policies he’s clearly been committed to since forever.

    Sure, but he also said was that it was an attack by the Center for American Progress, which Sanders-watchers well know is code for “the Clinton machine.”

  210. 210
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Belafon:

    Ooh, I hope you’re right!

  211. 211
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Xavier Onassis:

    Please describe in detail what Sen. Sanders has done during his time in Congress to advance the cause he has been “fighting for” since forever.

    ETA: Sorry, “committed to,” I misquoted you slightly.

  212. 212
    Kent says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Every single Democratic candidate (I’ll leave out Gabbard) is a thousand times better than Sanders in every possible way. We have to get this right.

    Well, hold on. We still have Tim Ryan, Marianne Williamson, and John Delaney in the race.

  213. 213
    Shana says:

    Slightly OT, but I’m sitting in a lovely backyard waiting to see Beto. Not sure he’s my favorite but willing to listen. About 2-300 folks here, not all of whom look like retirement-age.

  214. 214

    @Shana: let us know what he stands on!

  215. 215
    germy says:

    They found Sol Pais dead of a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

  216. 216
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @rikyrah: This isn’t something I have any real experience in, being a white straight married dude. I don’t really get to be angry about it or question people’s decisions about how to come out or be open with their sexuality, but…

    My default stance is that coming out is different for everyone and it certainly isn’t without personal and professional risks. You do not question someone’s choices there unless they’re doing something blatantly awful, like advocating against gay marriage or similar while being in the closet.

  217. 217
    James E Powell says:

    @Belafon:

    I expect more than a couple to drop out long before first primary.

    At this point we’ve got: Booker, Buttigieg, Castro, Delaney, Gabbard, Gillibrand, Harris, Hickenlooper, Inslee, Klobuchar, Messam, O’Rourke, Ryan, Sanders, Swalwell, Warren, Williamson, Yang.

    That’s 18. Did I miss anyone? How many can continue past Labor Day?

    Question I should know the answer to but don’t: Does a candidate have to do anything to qualify for the Iowa caucuses?

  218. 218
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Shana: I am so pissed about Wilmer that right now I am ready to cheer for literally any other Democrat in the race (except Tulsi). So, go Beto, go Mayor Pete, go Biden, go Warren, go Harris, go Gillibrand, go Booker, go Klobuchar, go Inslee, hell, go Hickenlooper, and who am I missing?

    @James E Powell: oh, there’s the list. Well, go *most* of them!

  219. 219
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Flaws and all, they were decent characters. Trouble is, the guys who say the stuff I was parodying think the world of characters like Ripley but will tear into any modern female character like Rey from Star Wars or Captain Marvel. Ripley never smiled that much either, come to think of it

  220. 220
    germy says:

    That Republicans thought inviting Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez to a Kentucky coal mine was a sick burn shows how utterly stupid they are, especially given that she immediately accepted their invitation and then they had no idea what to do so are backing out in a chickenshit manner appropriate to their president.

    GOP’s getting scared that up close, their constituents will realize I’m fighting harder for their healthcare than their own Reps 🙂 https://t.co/TVSafpJWEd— Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) April 16, 2019

  221. 221
    Patricia Kayden says:

    plus all the people who would only vote for him.

    There shouldn’t be any people who will only vote for Sanders. So does this mean that if he loses, they won’t vote for the eventual Democratic nominee? If so, aren’t they guaranteeing another Trump win? Why isn’t he telling his supporters that they need to support the Democratic nominee even if it’s not him? I really can’t stand him but if he’s the nominee, of course, I’ll pull the lever for him in November 2016 because I’m not crazy and don’t want Trump in office for another term. That’s what his supporters should be saying too if he is not the nominee.

  222. 222
    scav says:

    Well, I guess it passes the time, crowning chickens before the eggs have been laid.

  223. 223
    Adam Geffen says:

    @Cacti:

    The thing that really gets me is that genx’ers are in their 40s and millennials are in their 30s. I’m “only” 42 but for some reason the idea of “millennials” in their 30s makes me feel really old. 🙄🤦‍♂️

  224. 224
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    He likes to stand on stuff doesn’t he?

  225. 225
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Kent:

    Okay, I’ll list the people who are each a thousand times better than Sanders: Harris, Warren, Booker, Klobuchar, Gillibrand, Inslee, Buttigieg, O’Rourke, Castro. (may have missed a few in there, but this is good to start with)

  226. 226
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Kent:

    And actually, I’d add Tim Ryan as well.

    And Hickenlooper, of course!

  227. 227
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @goblue72: Funny how that works for you geezers.
    I know the definition of millennial gets stretched according to who’s using it, but I’m pretty sure if you were in your thirties when the century turned, Dwight, you don’t qualify.

    How did your appeal to get the company to reinstate Donut Day go?

  228. 228
    Kathleen says:

    @West of the Cascades: I’ve already made mine.

  229. 229
    Chyron HR says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    So does this mean that if [Sanders] loses, they won’t vote for the eventual Democratic nominee?

    His 2016 campaign slogan was literally “Bernie or Bust”.

  230. 230
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    What Bupalos said about the implications of a Sanders win is true — the election of a democratic socialist really would transform American politics.

    I don’t quite agree. I think a democratic socialist* getting elected POTUS would be the result, rather than the cause, of a big transformation in American politics. And I’m not convinced that Wilmer and the Wilmeristas** have been as tranformative as they seem to think.

    *Whatever that is, in the American context
    **Promising band name, but the music is half-baked and the performers are not terribly appealing.

  231. 231
    VeniceRiley says:

    @Xavier Onassis:

    Also, I can’t find any evidence that Sanders has used this “fight” as a fundraising tool.

    You didn’t look very hard.
    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/bernies-campaign-hits-back-on-anti-sanders-dems-in-fundraising-email/ar-BBW0lvU

  232. 232
    sdhays says:

    Bernie is polling at less than 30% in his best poll. His strategy is based on the assumption that that is his floor, which is a pretty stupid assumption to make. Most of the others do not yet have his name recognition and the primary hasn’t really started yet. On top of that, he has no plan to expand above his floor. Trump faced an extraordinarily weak (in every meaning of the word) field, no matter how large it was. Sanders is facing a very strong field.

    He’s lazy – he ran 4 years ago and somehow several others are well ahead of him in detailing their policies and building their campaigns. He doesn’t have the focus to win in the Democratic primary. He will flame out, and his bro’s will weep bitterly and gnash their teeth, and maybe then we can spend more time talking about people who actually have a shot at being the Democratic nominee, let along President.

  233. 233

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: I know, I know… I just decided to comment on how much I like her instead :)

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: easier than standing for stuff!

  234. 234
    catclub says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    There shouldn’t be any people who will only vote for Sanders.

    I first read this thread when there were already 200+ comments, but yours did make the same point I was planning to make.
    Thanks!

  235. 235
    FlyingToaster says:

    @James E Powell:

    Does a candidate have to do anything to qualify for the Iowa caucuses?

    For most states, the primary requirements are to get the requisite number of signatures for your party, have the party compose the ballot list and (for caucus) distribute it to caucus sites; (for primaries) submit it to the Secretary of State for ballot printing. I’d be shocked if Iowa were significantly different.

    The filing dates vary widely, but for primaries/caucuses, each state party sets the basic rules.

  236. 236
    karen marie says:

    Sanders can go pound sand. If he is the nominee of the Democratic Party, there is no Democratic Party, BECAUSE HE IS NOT A FUCKING DEMOCRAT. Please, someone, get out a stage hook and remove this fuckwit from the stage!

  237. 237
    MisterForkbeard says:

    I just want to note that I really, REALLY dislike Sanders and he’s a great example of a grifter and someone who would (in ordinary times) be a fairly awful president. As President I think he’d actually discredit leftist policies (bad) and encourage the same sort of Trumpist-like behavior in the left that Trump does in the right (also bad). He’d also be vastly preferable to Trump and someone I would vote for in the general without reservation. Being ineffectual is much better than 4 years of court packing and corruption.

    That said, this strategy doesn’t strike me as particularly bad. He’s not planning on actively splitting the party per se, just that the amount of candidates means that if he can hold onto his portion of die-hards and opposition doesn’t solidify behind a couple of other candidates, he’ll win by default without having to make big compromises. And that most Democrats will vote for him in the general because look at the alternative. This isn’t evil and I think it’s dismissive, but he’s basically trying to hold onto his own ideology and brand and thinks he can do that and still win the primary. He’s got a good chance there, though I really REALLY hope he loses.

  238. 238
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Xavier Onassis: This site (approvingly) reproduces a recent Sanders fundraising email, in which he uses the “fight” with CAP as a fundraising tool — smearing the shit out of that organization and making all kinds of ominous implications about its motives in the process. CAP isn’t above scrutiny, so fine. But it’s more than a little hypocritical for Sanders to meep about that video and then blast CAP with far more serious insinuations in response, IMO.

  239. 239
    Another Scott says:

    Is today a day ending in “y”? I think it is.

    GovExec, not TheOnion – New Whistleblower Protection Office Is Under Investigation for Retaliating Against Whistleblowers.

    Because of course they are…

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  240. 240

    @MisterForkbeard: at worst sanders would be accidentally deleterious to the nation, which is an improvement and reason enough to hold one’s nose in the general.

  241. 241
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    He is Putin’s candidate for the Dem nomination precisely because there is no chance in hell he would win the presidency. He’s being supported in order to become the candidate and lose to Trump.

  242. 242
    MomSense says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I read his comment twice and still have no idea what he was trying to say.

  243. 243
    banditqueen says:

    @BobS:

    Also makes me wonder what kind of shit some of them may have been talking about either Clinton or Obama (whichever had stolen their heart) in 2008.

    Let’s think about the here and now, not then and there. It’s 2019–Obama served as prez for 2 terms starting 2008, Hillary won the popular vote in 2016. Bernard the not-dem lost in 2016, and still has his hard core supporters, but not enough to win then and not enough to win now. And Bernard the not-dem spent most of his time on the senate back bench up through 2015.
    As for “whichever had stolen their heart”–outside of the dem filter, I am not frivolous in how I decide to vote and I vote dem–and will support the dem candidate this election as well.

  244. 244
    Brachiator says:

    @kdbart:

    Doesn’t he have to earn my vote?

    No. Bernie is obviously the future. He is the way, the light and the truth. Anyone who does not vote for him has failed him and the progressive purity unicorn.

    Or something like that.

  245. 245
    Xavier Onassis says:

    @Chyron HR: According to Wikipedia, these were his campaign slogans. “A Future To Believe In” “Not me. Us.” “A Political Revolution Is Coming” ” Not For Sale” “Enough Is Enough” “Feel the Bern”

    “Bernie or Bust” was literally not one of them.

    @VeniceRiley Thanks, didn’t show up in my google search.

  246. 246
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Bupalos: Agreed. Bernie would be really sub-optimal. Not an efficient president. Would discredit a lot of Democrat ideology. *Might* have the effect of shifting Democrats more left but could also go the other way. Would definitely run a risk of splitting our coalition.

    BUT he’s a standard politician in a lot of ways. He’s selfish and an asshole, but he does know how to follow process, appoint advisers and so on. He’d nominate leftish judges, make some good executive orders.

    Compare that to Trump and the rampant lawlessness we have because he got in as a fluke. Then think about how bad Trump would be if he won again – we’re talking potential end-of-Democracy in the ways that matter.

  247. 247
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Xavier Onassis:

    And that list of his accomplishments during his years in Congress?

  248. 248
    zhena gogolia says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    He cannot win the presidency.

  249. 249
    Barbara says:

    @opiejeanne: People can be “out” in different times to different people. I have a cousin (now deceased) who was out to his colleagues and probably one of his siblings for a long time before he finally wrote a letter to every significant relative to announce that he was gay, to the utter lack of surprise of many of us, and the total lack of interest to most — but not all — of us. And he was a lot older than 33 and not running for electoral office. To be “out” is not a hard and fast kind of thing. There were no doubt many people in Buttigieg’s life who knew, and when his profile was high enough he probably realized he had to let the whole world know in an official way. I don’t know that’s what happened, but that would be my guess, and that doesn’t mean he was hiding or pretending to be not-gay. It’s like people holding it against Hillary Clinton that she didn’t divorce Bill for his infidelity because they are just sure that’s what they would have done, or at least what she should have done if she were a true feminist. People should mostly have the right to protect their personal lives from being hijacked for the political interests of others.

  250. 250
    Jeffro says:

    Back to the big picture for a second: Trumpov is betting that the EC and SCOTUS will save him.

    The big-picture strategy

    Baker summarizes Trump’s big-picture strategy this way:

    His social media advertising is aimed disproportionately at older Americans who were the superstructure of his victory in the Electoral College in 2016. His messaging is permeated with divisive language that galvanizes core supporters more than it persuades anyone on the fence, much less on the other side.

    That social media advertising aimed at older voters heavily emphasizes nativist themes. And indeed, the key to all this is how that plays into the electoral college.

    Even some Republicans admit to this. Several of them recently told the Washington Examiner that they fully expect Trump to lose the popular vote but are banking on him winning via the electoral college.

    No more, no more, no more of this. Every Dem should bang on this issue until we figure out a way (amendment, national popular vote compact, whatever) to be rid of the EC forever.

    …On display here again is Trump’s utter refusal to accept any institutional obligation to use his bully pulpit to calm his supporters down about Omar, if only to reassure U.S. Muslims. We saw the same after the Charlottesville violence: Trump refused to unambiguously condemn white supremacy, disregarding any obligation to speak to the whole country in a unifying way…Trump would perhaps prefer to win a popular majority outright — and he still very well might — but it’s obvious the campaign sees an electoral college win amid a popular-vote loss as its most likely path to victory. As Joshua Green and Sahil Kapur report, such a win runs through incredibly juiced-up energy among non-college-educated whites in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan. Given Trump’s travails (in part due to trade) in those states, cranking up the anti-immigrant energy is the way to make it happen.

    “Want a president who loves ‘very fine people’ and encourages pipe bombers? Want a president who can’t seem to say anything about black churches being burned down, but signs on to every racist conspiracy theory under the sun? Well then yeah, trumpov’s your guy” – winning Dem candidate, 2020

    In related news:

    On another front, The Post reports this about Trump:

    He is particularly angry about the efforts by the Ways and Means Committee to obtain his tax returns, telling aides he will fight that demand all the way to the Supreme Court and adding that, by then, the 2020 election will be over.

    The case for getting Trump’s tax returns should be a legal slam dunk, but Trump’s allies have not even remotely given up on the possibility that the Supreme Court could rule that the law empowering Congress to do this is unconstitutional. Trump is either hoping for that, or hoping the courts string this along until after his reelection.

    “The only thing he’s fought hard for in his life is…to keep his tax returns secret?? What’s THAT all about? He’s hoping to run out the clock, scare his supporters into re-electing him, and head off into the sunset laughing with your and Putin’s dollars, without never once seeing what’s in those returns? He’s appointed Henchman A and Crony B to high places to obstruct justice, break the law, and keep those returns secret by any. means. necessary, country be damned. Don’t you let him get away with it!” – winning Dem candidate, 2020

    Hop to it, Dems!

  251. 251
  252. 252
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Because President Trump knowingly gets America into bad situations for fun and profit, whereas President Sanders would merely blunder into them. An important distinction for laying blame after the fact, I guess, but in the moment I don’t see the difference. President Sanders would still need his senior staff to baby him and keep his fingers out of the wall sockets of presidenting. I’m not convinced Sanders would always heed his people when it mattered.

  253. 253
    Xavier Onassis says:

    @Betty Cracker: I don’t find it hypocritical for Sanders to respond as long as he’s being intellectually honest, i.e. not using ad hominem or insinuating stuff without evidence as the Thinkprogress video did. He did insinuate that CAP and the establishment are targeting him but I think the prima facie evidence is pretty good on that. And the accusations he made about CAP’s funding, afaict, are just facts.

  254. 254
    catclub says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    just that the amount of candidates means that if he can hold onto his portion of die-hards and opposition doesn’t solidify behind a couple of other candidates, he’ll win by default without having to make big compromises.

    This is basically how trump won the GOP nom in 2016. I think there is much less fear among the democrats that going hard after Sanders
    will lose his backers – which was why Trump was able to win. nobody actually went at him for being a crook, an ex-Democrat, a NY elitist.

    I think there is much more likelihood that somebody will go after him in debates, and it will stick.
    I also think that winnowing will happen VERY fast. There is nobody who is being maintained by Sheldon Adelson , or a grifting, future,
    in the Democratic side.

    We shall see.

    ETA: For instance, Sanders has a lot of writing from the past. My understanding is that it talks about sex a lot. How will he respond when the GOP candidate brings that up? Hillary said not one word on that.

  255. 255

    I’m unclear on how waging a scorched earth primary results in Democratic voters resetting their default to “generic Dem” after the race is wrapped up.

    “President Trump”

  256. 256
    James E Powell says:

    @FlyingToaster:

    For most states, the primary requirements are to get the requisite number of signatures for your party, have the party compose the ballot list and (for caucus) distribute it to caucus sites; (for primaries) submit it to the Secretary of State for ballot printing. I’d be shocked if Iowa were significantly different.

    Well I, too, am shocked but Iowa appears to be significantly different. The state law says the caucuses are run by the parties so there are no formal legal requirements to getting on the ballot. The Iowa Democratic Party’s rules also says “[t]here is no specific filing requirement whereby a presidential candidate gains access to the Iowa delegate selection process.”

    I suppose all one need do is have people show up. @Baud, you’re as viable as anyone at this point.

  257. 257
    Bupalos says:

    @Amir Khalid: @Amir Khalid: @The Moar You Know:

    You really can’t compare results in a 2016 dem primary or current theoretical polls to prognosticate about a 2020 election campaign with Trump. It’s just as empty as Sandernistas pointing to his general matchup polls against Trump in 2016 and saying he would have won so easily. That campaign never happened. Every campaign and matchup is it’s own thing. Personally I think Trump would have a really hard time attacking Sanders as a commie or old dude or shouty-gramps without doing more damage to himself as a shouty, sundowning trickle-downer.

    But however you want to conceive of it, not recognizing any X-vs-Trump 2020 campaign will have it’s very own and mostly brand new dynamics is a mistake I think.

  258. 258
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Right? And I think we both agree that this is actually a good strategy for Bernie and probably his best chance of winning the primary, though I think it has significant downsides in the general. I’m not pissed at him for doing it, not really.

    I do think Bernie (if he won the primary) would do himself a huge favor by selecting Harris or Abrams as a running mate, assuming they’d go along with him. He’s never going to placate the ‘right’ and picking either Abrams or Harris would shore up his Democratic base considerably – and both of them are very strong, able speakers that can easily serve as excellent surrogates and provide some real weight to the ticket. However, neither is a Bernie follower so I would expect him to ignore them completely. Which is sort of the problem with his entire candidacy.

  259. 259
    Fair Economist says:

    @Bupalos:

    I’m really having a hard time seeing how Wilmer supposedly depressing turnout is a solid argument for depressing one’s own hypothetical Wimer turnout. I think we’re all getting ahead of ourselves.

    I see this as tit-for-tat. Bernie is the only major candidate who has a twitter squad going neg on the other candidates, except maybe Mayor Pete, according to Angry Black Lady. Basic multiplayer dynamics favors going neg in response hoping his supporters will get a clue. Unfortunately many, if not most, of his problematic supporters are not genuine but are grifters, trolls, or hostile agents. I think counterattacking is probably the right strategy against each of those; muffling the argument is probably more desirable but I don’t think that’s doable.

  260. 260
    Chyron HR says:

    @Xavier Onassis:

    Oh, I’m sorry, clearly I hallucinated this phrase that no human has ever spoken before.

  261. 261

    @Xavier Onassis:

    He did insinuate that CAP and the establishment are targeting him but I think the prima facie evidence is pretty good on that. And the accusations he made about CAP’s funding, afaict, are just facts.

    “Everything at ThinkProgress is controlled by the Clintons!” is about as accurate as “everything at Media Matters is controlled by George Soros!”

  262. 262
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @zhena gogolia: Entirely possible, but wouldn’t stop ME from voting for him in the General. I’m certainly not voting for him in the Primary. But if he does (god forbid) make it to the general, I’m absolutely going to vote for him and encourage others to do so. I won’t volunteer for his campaign or contribute much, but he’d get my vote and I’ll happily explain to anyone why he’d get it.

  263. 263
    mattH says:

    This post is in Assholes

    QFT
    *sigh*

  264. 264
    catclub says:

    @mattH: here’s hoping it will just stay there.

  265. 265

    @catclub:

    Sanders has a lot of writing from the past. My understanding is that it talks about sex a lot. How will he respond when the GOP candidate brings that up? Hillary said not one word on that.

    Man, that stuff is… weird, but also the sort of thing you find if you dig through a straight white male ex-hippie “intellectual”’s early writing. Yes, this oddly specific example is based on experience.

  266. 266
    James E Powell says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    And I think we both agree that this is actually a good strategy for Bernie and probably his best chance of winning the primary, though I think it has significant downsides in the general

    A good strategy for Bernie and probably his only chance of winning the nomination would be for him to apologize for helping to put Trump in the White House, apologize to Hillary Clinton for the smears that he and his supporters made, and tell everyone that he and anyone who supports him pledge – right now, without reservation or qualification – to support the Democratic nominee with all available energy, money, and time.

  267. 267
    rikyrah says:

    😒😒😠😠
    The timing of these town halls help Fox News at a time when they needed it most. Literally throwing Fox News a lifeline.

    Truly short-sighted and needlessly undermining of successful accountability work Fox sorely was due. https://t.co/1QaFwgBrSf

    — Angelo Carusone (@GoAngelo) April 17, 2019

  268. 268
    chopper says:

    @Xavier Onassis:

    “Bernie or Bust” was literally not one of them.

    i think it’s pretty obvs the dude was being all joe biden ‘literally’.

  269. 269
    delk says:

    As a gay man I have absolutely no problem about when Mayor Pete came out. You’d be surprised how many people are comfortable saying words like fag and homo right to your face when they have no idea that you are gay.

    My problem is with Aaron Schock who voted anti-gay while in office but who is now making out with guys at Coachella.

  270. 270
    Betty Cracker says:

    Here’s a tweet from the man himself:

    More attacks on Democrats, and he’s just getting started. Remember, the CAP people apologized to him (needlessly, IMO), but still, he’s keeping up the attacks TODAY and rattling the cup at supporters. I guess I’m a “Stop Sanders Democrat” since I really, really, REALLY don’t want to have to vote for the cantankerous coot in the general election and will throw my support behind almost any other declared candidate to stop him. I didn’t realize that made me a wealthy plotter…

  271. 271
    chopper says:

    @James E Powell:

    far as i know, “do a reasonable job eating a corn dog on camera” is the only requirement for iowa.

  272. 272
    gene108 says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    encourage the same sort of Trumpist-like behavior in the left that Trump does in the right (also bad).

    I don’t see Democrats falling in line behind Bernie, like Republicans have with Trump. Democrats are not much for top-down politics, whereas Republicans live for that shit. Also, what Trump proposes and does – hurting immigrants, hurting blacks, by refusing to question police tactics, etc. – are all stuff his base eagerly supports. The anti-Trumpers just dislike his vulgarity in doing so, but they don’t have a problem with his racism.

    Being ineffectual is much better than 4 years of court packing and corruption.

    I really do wonder, how President Sanders would handle court appointments.

    Trump is letting traditional Republican sources, The Heritage Foundation and The Federalist Society, to do the picking for him. They are getting people from the regular Republican pipeline of people, who have prepped to be federal judges.

    President Sanders, I think, cannot afford to use traditional Democratic Party infrastructure to source potential judges. This would be off-brand for him, as he is going against the Democratic corporatist neo-liberal establishment. No idea, where he would turn to actually get names to appoint to the federal courts, unless Our Revolution, Justice Dems or the DSA actually has a list of possible candidates.

  273. 273
    eemom says:

    Is it just me or are the never before seen Bernout trolls emerging in ant-like numbers from the woodwork?

  274. 274
    Kayla Rudbek says:

    @Belafon: and Mayor Pete was the son of a Notre Dame professor – probably not exactly the most welcoming of environments to grow up gay in, even if his parents were personally okay with it.

  275. 275
    trollhattan says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    Jesus (heh) the ego of this man.

    Dems are fighting tooth-and-claw to overcome voter suppression efforts to allow the disenfranchised access to the polls, and this guy is spending his energy attacking…Democrats.

  276. 276
    Bupalos says:

    @White & Gold Purgatorian: I considered this might be one reason people are doing this “I’m as dumb/crazy as a rabid Bernie Supporter in reverse” act here, but I’m actually not sure what this type of game of chicken would accomplish. I’m not getting the game theory. All it really would seem to do is confirm, in the Sandernista’s eyes, the validity of the basic approach. The problem with trying to out-crazy the crazy is that the crazy really is crazy.

  277. 277
    opiejeanne says:

    @satby: I saw some of it, have it recorded, and I saw her conversation with Lawrence about his coming out and hers at the end of her show. I’ll go back and watch the whole thing. The part I saw was very interesting.
    I have a gay son older than Mayor Pete. He’ll be 49 this year and he’s most of the way out of the closet so I do have some sympathy for Mayor Pete and his not coming out until age 33. His comment that he didn’t want to admit it to himself until then was interesting. A good friend from HS that I reconnected with on Facebook surprised me when it was clear he was gay because he was all over the girls and sex with girls in HS, one in particular, back in the Dark Ages when “nice girls” didn’t do the deed. I told him I’d missed the memo and was a little confused, and he laughed and told me how confused he was when he realized it, in his 20s.
    Other things Mayor Pete has said and done have left me disappointed in him because I was really excited about him when he first appeared to be running. Things like “1000 houses in 1000 days” that do not inspire confidence about his concern for non-whites, and his dissing Hillary as if it’s de rigeur to do so if you’re a white male candidate (he’s not the only one).

  278. 278
    rikyrah says:

    College kids living like kings in Vancouver’s empty mansions
    Natalie Wong and Natalie Obiko Pearson

    Isaiah Boodhoo, 22, thought it was a “complete hoax” when he saw a rental listing on Facebook for a bedroom in a Vancouver mansion for only C$1,100 ($825) a month.

    It turned out the glass chandeliers, luxurious blue drapes, steam room and billiards table were for real. The nine-bedroom home, dubbed “The Castle” by the 14 students who share the property, is apparently owned by an Afghani pop artist, according to Boodhoo.

    “Honestly, I would stay here for as long as I could,” he said, sitting on a white couch while sipping from a Slurpee cup. “$1,000 bucks for all this?”

    Others may also soon find themselves as lucky as more mansion owners in the city turn to renting to avoid a new tax on empty homes. In the new world of Vancouver’s housing market, where Chinese investors are decamping and low-ball offers are the norm, students can find themselves living in the lap of luxury.

  279. 279
    gene108 says:

    @Bupalos:

    Personally I think Trump would have a really hard time attacking Sanders as a commie or old dude or shouty-gramps without doing more damage to himself as a shouty, sundowning trickle-downer.

    I disagree. Bernie is the only candidate, who will make Trump young and vigorous. Part of his appeal, in 2016, was he was the robust alpha-male, against the frail old lady Hillary. Trump and Hillary are about the same age (think Trump’s just a year older), and Hillary took time to exercise and watched what she ate, but that didn’t stop the press from parroting Trump’s smears about Hillary’s health.

    Bernie is several years older than Trump. He’ll get hammered for his health, his stamina, his energy level, etc. and it will be an easier sell because Bernie is older. He is thin, which in some older folks comes across like being frail.

    If there’s one area Trump can and will hammer Bernie on it’s his age and health.

  280. 280
    ruemara says:

    @James Willett: What in the fuckfire are you babbling about?

    Did y’all new & moronic commentors just see the Save Bernie signal to come in, sling some bullshit and earn the fealty by being stupid?

    @cckids: My pinned tweet literally screams that crowd size isn’t votes & if you couldn’t translate crowds into votes in 2016, it’s unlike to do it now.

    The fucking unearned privilege of Bernie 2020 is dwarfing the condescending attitudes of 2016. This is exactly what they’ve been saying the democratic party does to minority voters and it’s exactly what their plan was from 2015 on. Only instead of insisting he’s the bestest candidate, they want to destroy everyone else so he’s the only candidate because the media is still so pro Bernie and anti-Democratic anyone without a penis. Fuck him. This person will not do a damned thing for Bernie if he wins. Handle it without me because I can’t take the left’s little racial problems any more.

  281. 281
    opiejeanne says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Your comments are very moving and very realistic. That must have been terrifying for you at age 16.

    My son took years to come out of the closet, long after the rest of us already knew. He dated girls and had a mad crush on one of the neighborhood girls but by the time he was in his late 20s we thought he was, even though he still had a girlfriend. During a phone conversation he kind of let slip that he had a boyfriend and then realized what he’d said. There was a long pause in the conversation at that point, me just waiting to hear what he’d say next, him terrified about what I’d say, other than “I love you and you’re my kid”.

  282. 282
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @gene108: Trump was the oldest person ever elected to a first term. Sanders is five years older than Trump.

  283. 283
    opiejeanne says:

    @Major Major Major Major: The actual criticism I’ve seen of Mayor Pete by LGBTQ persons has come from a long essay about how he’s only gay and not queer, and a gay white male at that, from someone identifying as queer. The commenter indicated that as a queer man he felt that Mayor Pete would ignore his and the others in the LGBTQ group, that their issues, their problems would not matter to him.
    You’ll have to excuse me while I go look up the definitions of those words because I’m so old that they used to mean the same thing and I know that there is a division now, but I can’t remember it.

  284. 284
    satby says:

    @opiejeanne: the “1000 houses in 1000 days” thing ended up being about 60% houses torn down and 40% rehabbed. Buzzfeed did a (warning: clickbaity headline) about it and in the body of the article the people they cited as opponents to the program didn’t really say much negative about the mayor. (And yes, that’s me arguing in the comments). The thing about that program, as I said before, is that a LOT of abandoned houses remain in South Bend. I have three empty houses immediately around my own; all owned by absentee “investors” and all basically disintegrating unoccupied. The area I live in is mixed racially, and not too many of my neighbors were torn up about the abandoned burned out house that used to be next to mine getting torn down during that time (I wasn’t here yet).
    It’s a serious problem in this city, and though I hate seeing houses torn down, some of these are no longer salvageable. On the other hand, when they are there’s some help available now.
    Full disclosure, I now volunteer for Habitat on the team that does that.

  285. 285
    satby says:

    @opiejeanne: and the people criticizing that about the mayor should do some due diligence about how much of an ally he’s been to the gay and transgender community here. Instead of making assumptions.
    There’s legitimate criticism to make about him, but that for sure isn’t one, according to the members of the LGTB community I know here.

  286. 286
    Bupalos says:

    @gene108: Well, I’m having trouble crafting a response to that, both because you appear to me to be largely correct, and because I’m suddenly stuck in a loop fixating on the image of Trump and Bernie in an actual fight. Fat Bastard lumbering around and swiping like king kong, while Bernie tries to use his superior (cf. relativity) quickness to disorient the big ape-man. Who will stroke out first? Who’s supporters will come up with the wildest conspiracy theory about the other one’s secret cheating, despite both of them using completely obvious methods of cheating?

  287. 287
    ruemara says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I think what a lot of people are missing is that while he’s gay, Mayor Pete isn’t seen as much of an ally to anyone else. And the fractures in the LG community with the B, T, Q, I & A portions – those are real. We can’t even begin to deal with the racial divisions.

    Toss in the housing issue, the Buttigate racist statements on tapes that he won’t turn over and yeah, that’s why some gay people are not feeling Pete. For me, he went from top 3 to omigod, reboot Bernie.

    Also, I’m in moderation. Please and thanks to anyone who can get me out of it.

  288. 288
    trollhattan says:

    @opiejeanne:
    I have Imperial tape measures and metric tape measures I use for different types of projects, and am sure glad I don’t also need whatever measurement system they’re using on the mayor.

  289. 289
    wasabi gasp says:

    Soon Bernie will literally own the libs.

  290. 290
    opiejeanne says:

    @Barbara: Fair points.

  291. 291
    Searcher says:

    @Juju: Also, you — well, the House — can elect a new Speaker the instant you decide you have a better candidate for Speaker than the current one. “What if the Speaker starts slipping, mentally or physically?” is just a non-issue compared to the President. Do they have the capability NOW is all that matters.

  292. 292
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @James E Powell:

    A good strategy for Bernie and probably his only chance of winning the nomination would be for him to apologize for helping to put Trump in the White House, apologize to Hillary Clinton for the smears that he and his supporters made, and tell everyone that he and anyone who supports him pledge – right now, without reservation or qualification – to support the Democratic nominee with all available energy, money, and time.

    Sounds nice. Can I interest you in some swampland, a bridge, or the Springfield monorail?

  293. 293
    Ruckus says:

    @FelonyGovt:
    He really is a narcissist, not quite as much as DT, but his world does revolve around the stick stuck up his ass.

    My name and password stay on my new phone, as long as I don’t log off.

  294. 294
    Ruckus says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Destroying the democratic party is what BS and the republican party wants. Because then they can somehow, in their tiny deranged minds, have nirvana. Like the dog who catches the car, they really have no clue what comes after that.

  295. 295
    chopper says:

    @trollhattan:

    it’s like the one mary poppins has, only the measurement reads “not the right kind of gay”!

  296. 296
    chopper says:

    @chopper:

    someone more computer savvy than i could change this gif up in that vein. lolz.

  297. 297
    Juju says:

    @Searcher: that’s true. As I mentioned a president with a gradual decline of the mind, as was Reagan or a whack job with some sort of mental decline to go with his already addled mind as our current president probably is, is much more difficult to deal with than an addled speaker. Or, for that matter, president who dies while in office, or has some sort of obvious ailment like a stroke.

  298. 298
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @mrmoshpotato: This would be very helpful to Democrats in the General but not particularly useful to Bernie’s primary prospects. I guess he could do this once/if he locks up the nomination. That would go some way towards healing any rifts in the Democratic party, but he’d obviously want to soften the message somewhat. Can’t make himself look like a COMPLETE tool.

  299. 299

    @tokyokie: Yes that is the British version of the spelling. Sometimes I revert back

  300. 300

    @Ruckus: Putinian oligarchy for Rs. Glorious revolution and a dacha for BS.

  301. 301
    SenyorDave says:

    I’ll vote for Bernie over any Republican. I’ll vote for any Democrat running over Bernie. IMO he’s got a little problem with POC.

  302. 302
    Brachiator says:

    @opiejeanne:

    The actual criticism I’ve seen of Mayor Pete by LGBTQ persons has come from a long essay about how he’s only gay and not queer

    What does this mean, and how many voters would care?

    and a gay white male at that

    This might be meaningful to people who like Andrew Sullivan, I guess, but how else is this important?

    And for the record, I don’t know Mayor Pete from a sack of potatoes, and so am neither for nor against him.

    I also have no idea what his chances are, until some actual primaries. Some voters will reject him because he is gay, period, more than voters will reject him because of his relationship to the gay, etc, etc, communities.

  303. 303

    @ruemara: Called it two weeks ago that he was BS wannabe. And got verbal brickbats from the PB fan club here.

  304. 304
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @PlayDough:

    Repost from earlier thread

    – because it is just SO FUCKING IMPORTANT that your IMMENSELY BRILLIANT COMMENT be seen by EVERYBODY.//// (that’s double sarcasm, folx)

    What’s the old saw? “Better to be silent & be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth & remove all doubt.” You removed all doubt years ago. Although in all honesty, “fool” is probably a step up the food chain for you.

    Every day on Balloon-Juice forces me to add to the number of posters who can kiss my Italoamerican arse. (I think I may acronym that from now on: EDOBJFM2A2TNOPWCKMIA.)

  305. 305
    Brachiator says:

    @rikyrah:

    Others may also soon find themselves as lucky as more mansion owners in the city turn to renting to avoid a new tax on empty homes. In the new world of Vancouver’s housing market, where Chinese investors are decamping and low-ball offers are the norm, students can find themselves living in the lap of luxury.

    I ain’t a college student, but I would love a deal like this for a vacation rental.

  306. 306
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Yes that is the British version of the spelling. Sometimes I revert back

    Why do you hate America???

    Oh yeah—because of trump. Never mind.

  307. 307
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Kent: Cosign – except I will also be expediting my application for an EU passport & looking for a bolt hole somewhere over there for self & kin. Whichever one of those fuckheads wins is odds-on to foment (or stumble into) Civil War II within a few months of (re)taking office.

  308. 308
    zhena gogolia says:

    @eemom:

    Uh, it’s not just you. I guess it’s a sign of spring.

  309. 309
    plato says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: Love it how easily I live rent free in your old bigoted mind. Go yell at some clouds, you old babbling idiot.

  310. 310
    opiejeanne says:

    @Brachiator: I have no idea what it means in the larger scope of things, other than that some who I thought would likely be his allies are not, and no idea if it matters to most voters.

  311. 311

    @Bupalos: You can give us these lectures after your hero has won the nomination. Until then take a chill pill.

  312. 312

    @ruemara:

    I think what a lot of people are missing is that while he’s gay, Mayor Pete isn’t seen as much of an ally to anyone else. And the fractures in the LG community with the B, T, Q, I & A portions – those are real. We can’t even begin to deal with the racial divisions.

    Those fractures are very real, and there are indeed significant racial issues in the LGBT community. But most of the commentary I’ve seen on Buttigieg’s alleged lack of queerness takes the form of, paraphrasing, “you aren’t a real member of the LGBT community if you aren’t a polyamorous nonbinary communist.”

  313. 313
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @goblowagoat72: EDOBJFM2A2TNOPWCKMIA. +2 & counting..

  314. 314
    NotMax says:

    @ Major Major Major Major

    polyamorous nonbinary communist

    Band’s first album was okay, all the rest not so much.

    :)

  315. 315
    Xavier Onassis says:

    @Betty Cracker: On second thought, you’re right. CAP should be judged on what they do, not on who funds them.

  316. 316
    opiejeanne says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    “you aren’t a real member of the LGBT community if you aren’t a polyamorous nonbinary communist.”

    Oh, is that all it is.

  317. 317
    ruemara says:

    @Major Major Major Major: lol, well. That is a stupid criticism. I’ve seen some of that & I”m kinda “not today, Satan”. I don’t expect that from a midwestern intellectual christian dude. I’m paying attention to those valid issues based on Pete’s comments. I just can’t go with freshly faced with new gay Bernie. At least I’ve gotten disappointed early. Good side, if he cinches the nom, I’m putting in voter reg efforts, donating and calling. Only one potential is out of my graces permanently.

  318. 318
  319. 319

    @ruemara: I honestly don’t get the “young gay Bernie” vibe from him at all. Some of his supporters on Twitter sort of rhyme with the Bernie-or-busters, but that isn’t his fault any more than it’s Yang’s fault he’s popular with the 4chan kids.

  320. 320
    Gex says:

    @Fair Economist: THIS. And also, coming out is not a one time thing. We have to do it over and over. And each time there are assessments that need to be made about safety and acceptance before doing so. Others may see that as calculating. I see that as self preservation.

  321. 321
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Amir Khalid: @Betty Cracker:

    [T]he election of a democratic socialist really would transform American politics.

    Only indirectly. The declaration of martial law & nullification of the election results somewhere between the meeting of the Electoral College & 1/20/21 would do the heavy lifting there.. (I wish I were more than half kidding.)

  322. 322
    ruemara says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Tone deaf, white male centric, Hillary was a lousy candidate, economics will bring us together, only I can reach out and convince Trump voters to be nice. That’s what I mean. So, yes, young + gay + Bernie.

  323. 323
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    Can’t make himself look like a COMPLETE tool.

    I’m not sure about that when it comes to Pouty Asshole. See 2016 DNC. He’d mathematically lost the nomination in May, but didn’t withdraw for the good of the party he was supposedly running in.

  324. 324
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    My brother-in-law wisely chose to come out shortly after his older sister announced that she was going to have a baby with her convicted felon boyfriend. With all that drama going on, anyone who might have wanted to get offended wasn’t going to be able to get any traction with the rest of the family. 😏

  325. 325
    Adam Geffen says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    “only because I was caught in a lie”
    ~phew~ Oh boy did that bring back memories. I came soooo close to be caught in such lies. I danced around enough to stay closeted until college. But before college… things were more complicated in high school.

    I was out on a date with this guy from a neighboring high school. We met online (of course), on AOL. heh. We had been talking on the phone for a few weeks before we both got up the courage to meet. The date was going really well. You know that kind of date where you plan for it to just be a coffee but then you really click and end up spending hours and hours together. It was that kind of date. Anyway, we were out long enough that his parents called my parents to see where he was. My parents were always pretty laissez faire about my comings and goings, and because I was involved in many after school activities (marching band, theater tech stuff, etc.), which sometimes kept me at school late, I hadn’t really planned a “cover story” for the date. IIRC, I think I told my parents he was an online friend who was really into computers (like I was) and I was helping him with some computer problems. (“computer problems”, right.)

    He ended up being my first boyfriend. I even met his mom. I’m pretty sure she was more clued into what was going on because she basically (in not so many words) started suggesting really good date ideas for us.

  326. 326
    Adam Geffen says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    I want to apologize for being an ass towards you the other day. I am sorry.

  327. 327
    J R in WV says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    .
    No not going to crawl on broken glass for Bull Shitter from Vt.
    .

    I’m So not going to support Bernie Sanders (I-Russia) under any circumstances. Sometimes we agree on something important, Schrodingr’s Cat !!!!

    No point in voting at all if both candidates are Stooges for Russia !!!

    We can count on Bernie NOT to vote for sanctions on Russia

    We can count on Bernie NOT to support sensible gun control (I say this as a shooter and gun owner, without any military style assault rifles!)

    We can count on Bernie NOT to support People of Color, LGBTQ folks, or even progressives

    We can count on Bernie NOT to support peace in the Middle East.

    We can count on Bernie to Fuck up public health care, to Suck up to Big Pharma, not to support anything actually progressive. He’s a Russian Stooge, end of story!!!

    Now the Bernie of Bust incels can pie me…

    All my support will be going to Senators Harris and Warren. The rest of the crew either don’t have any policy already written, aren’t very supportive of progressivism in general, or I just don’t like them very much so far. Gotta be ready to support LGBTQ community! Gotta be willing to support Health Care for ALL, gotta be willing to support peace in the Middle East, end to war on civilians, end to support for Mohammed Bone Saw

  328. 328
    Mnemosyne says:

    @eemom:

    It’s part of their “Neera Tanden is literally Satan!” roll-out that they’re trying to push forward even though the wheels came off that wagon yesterday.

  329. 329
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Adam Geffen:

    Apology accepted. I didn’t mean to blow up so big at you, but you inadvertently pushed a sore spot. I get really freaked out when I see left-wing media parroting right-wing propaganda. It gives me nasty flashbacks to 2016.

  330. 330
    Shana says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I couldn’t really see it, but I think it was a plastic milk crate.

  331. 331
    Redshift says:

    Just got back from a Beto O’Rourke town hall. He didn’t wow me, but I liked him a lot and would be just fine with him as the nominee. He ticked a lot of issue/policy boxes in his speech and q&a answers, but on the topic of this thread, my favorite statement was (paraphrasing slightly) “I will not demean or vilify any other Democratic candidate, because she or he could be our nominee.”

  332. 332
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Redshift:

    Wait, were you and Shana in the same place without realizing it?

  333. 333
    Seanly says:

    I want a woman as President, VP, and all the Secretaries. I’m tired of every meeting about women’s rights or abortion or birth control being a bunch of f’king old white men. Get some women in there who can fix shit and won’t take McConnel’s rictus grin of bullshit.

    I don’t want Bernie f’king angry old man Sanders, I don’t want flavor of the month 35-year-old white dudes. We white males had our run, way too long & now shits all broken. F’k us.

  334. 334
    Adam Geffen says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    “Apology accepted.”
    Thank you!

    Well, in your defense, I jumped right to 11 for really no good reason when I should have just discussed it with you. I don’t follow the ins and outs of politics nearly as closely as many commenters here do so I’m likely to be somewhat behind.

  335. 335
    Redshift says:

    @Mnemosyne: There was a separate meet & greet at 2pm that I didn’t get into. That’s probably where Shana was, based on the timestamp of the comment. The town hall was at 3:30. He did a lot of events in VA the past couple of days, props for that!

  336. 336
  337. 337
    J R in WV says:

    @goblue72:

    “He’s two years younger than Pelosi and only one year older than Biden,”

    Pelosi isn’t running for President, and Biden has no business running for President, he’s too old also !!

    By the time my very bright father was 80 he was incapable of managing his personal finances.

    Bernie isn’t nearly as bright as my dad was, my Dad honeymooned with Mom in Havana in the late 1940s, to DANCE to Cuban big band music. Bernie went to Stalinist Soviet Union to, what exactly? Become the Russian Stooge he is still today. Fuck You, Fuck Bernie, and the Russian horse he is riding!

  338. 338
    J R in WV says:

    @SFAW:

    .
    @goblue72:

    You are SO FUCKING RIGHT, because age has been no barrier to Bernie amassing a stunning list of legislative accomplishments — perhaps the most outstanding record since … ever. LBJ, were he here, would kiss Bernie’s figurative Literal ring, for Bernie’s record of overcoming all odds and forces arrayed against him, to get single-payer universal healthcare serious gun control civil rights legislation important stuff Important Post Office names passed into law.
    .

    There, I think I fixed that for you! Hope this helps…

  339. 339
    Richard Guhl says:

    In 1990, the late Juan Linz, a Yale University political scientist, wrote a monograph on The Perils of Presidentialism. In it he noted that there are four basic instabilities in Presidential democracies.
    First, the President and the legislature have independent claims of political legitimacy, and when the two are in conflict, there is no surefire mechanism to resolve those conflicts.
    Second, the office of the Presidency tends to make it a locus of inflated hopes.
    Third, the rigidity of Presidential terms tends to ramp up the desire to get things done in a hurry.
    Fourth, conflicts between the executive and legislative branches can, in an atmosphere of polarization, get cast as bad faith and malevolence.
    When conflicts appear to become unresolvable, Presidential democracies succumb to populist leaders, who claim they alone can solve all problems.
    And that sounds to me a lot like both Trump and Sanders.
    As Linz pointed out, what happens next historically is failure, followed by a junta to restore order, followed by revolt and bloodshed.
    I fear we are heading in this direction.

  340. 340
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Jeffro: Y’know, it should go without saying that, if some patriotic IRS employee with access to the last 10 years of Agolf Twitler’s Federal tax returns were to toss a thumbdrive containing same over the transom into the cognizant Democratic Congressperson’s office, s/he will be pardoned for the “crime” by the next Democratic POTUS. And that millions of patriotic fellow Americans will be happy to contribute very modestly per capita to ensure that her/his family does not suffer financially for the act. It shouldn’t be said, because it would be irresponsible (& probably illegal) to be seen to overtly encourage lawbreaking – but remember Daniel Ellsberg.

  341. 341
    Ruckus says:

    @SenyorDave:
    The list of his problems is not little.
    I thought Edwards would have been good. That lasted what, a week and a half? So I’ll give it to BS who made it about 2-3 weeks before I saw him as exactly what his initials stand for BS. So as I already know who and what he is I don’t want him at all.

    And I think someone up thread is right, we shouldn’t say we’ll vote for him over DT. That gives him exactly what he’s looking for, an excuse to keep going no matter what. That we will vote for a real democrat is fine, but I’ve thought about it for a few hours now and I think whomever said this up thread is right, we know he’s not a real democrat, we know he’s only in it for himself and whoever it helps to elect him, which is exactly none of us. And I came to this conclusion by asking myself one question, would he be better than DT. And as I can’t answer that in the affirmative because he’s got nothing to back up his “policy” positions, he has few if any friends in DC, and I’d bet that if he did win, he’d drop the Democrat label at 12:01 on Jan 20, 2021. I can’t imagine his cabinet nor anyone who works for him would have any idea on how to do anything. And some of them will be not quite as incompetent as everyone who will work for DT. Quite possibly not as evil but judging by a number of his supporters, there might be a question or two on that.

  342. 342
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @tokyokie:

    I have several different keyboards on my iPhone, including American English, Canadian English, and U.K. English. Because I attended school in Canada for a year — apparently at an age when spelling variations “took” — and because I worked for the Government of Canada for a quarter-century (and also because I am a pompous elitist wannabe Brit show-off) — I usually default to the Canadian English keyboard and don’t get spellchecked on things like colour or centre. If I’m using the American English keyboard, it will make the correction.

    I like the variations from one English-speaking country to another.

  343. 343
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Agolf Twitler

    Nice.

    toss a thumbdrive containing same over the transom into the cognizant Democratic Congressperson’s office

    Isn’t the current protocol casually leaving an innocent-looking unmarked manila envelope on the bar for a minute while you visit the loo or step outside for a cigarette? Transoms are so mid-20th-century.

  344. 344
    J R in WV says:

    @Kent:

    ” We still have Tim Ryan, Marianne Williamson, and John Delaney in the race.”

    Who? Who? Who? now I sound like an owl !!! Also – I know who Tim Ryan is, too. Ohio congresscritter, no coat-tails.

  345. 345
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Transoms are so mid-20th-century.

    {wcfields} Figure of speech, m’dear. {/wcfields} (IIUC most city fire codes require transoms [found mostly in pre-AC “legacy” buildings] to be sealed anyway.)

    I have a soft spot in my heart for transoms owing to a cartoon I saw many years ago which visually resembled something you’d see in the New Yorker but appeared (IIRC) in Playboy sometime in my salad days**:

    A couple is walking away from the reader down the hall of a hotel. The man’s head is turned around & looking at the open transom of a door in the near foreground. The caption:Suck, Marylou, suck – blow is just a figure of speech!

    (IMHO the somewhat dour mis-en-scene elevated the punchline to the acme of hilariosity. I laughed like a loon. YMMV – your mirth may vary.)

    ** When I was a green vegetable soaked in oil & vinegar.

  346. 346
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @plato: If you know, you have a peculiar way of showing it – since the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee & Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee have fuck-all to do with the Presidential primaries.

    In fact you simply demonstrate that you’re a fucking imbecile under the misapprehension he has a functioning brain: A classic Dunning-Kruger baby of the Left.

    @plato: Interesting that you call me a bigot. I have no idea what your claim to special status might be, nor do I care: Fucking imbeciles come in all races, colors, creeds, national origins, and sexual orientations.

    (BTW we’ll eschew the kiss-my-arse bit – I’m not about to take the chance that the FIV [Fucking Imbecile Virus] swarming in your bloodstream might be transmissible by oral-anal contact.)

  347. 347
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    You can’t win with a plurality.

    You still need 50% of the delegates to win the nomination.

    If no one has a majority then you go to a 2nd ballot. I don’t see how any of the other candidates cut a deal for their delegates with Mr. Scorched-earth

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