Trump was crowing on Twitter earlier about the Trump signs waved at the Netanyahu victory rally:
It’s natural that Trump and Netanyahu have an affinity for one another. They’re both crooks and bigots who are taking their respective countries to dark places.
The signage is no surprise either; fanatics all over the world have adopted MAGA-wear to express their blinkered hatred and stupidity — it’s the new Stars and Bars.
The jury is still out on how Trumpism will end for America; I am hopeful we can beat back the kakistocracy starting next year, though it’ll be a heavy lift, and we’ll have the millstone of stupid that is the collective weight of Trump voters around our necks for generations to come.
But I don’t see how this ends well for Israel. U.S. support for Israel has been a bipartisan priority for decades, and so far, most Democratic Party pols are maintaining that unity despite Netanyahu’s outrageous interference in our political affairs, including openly siding with Republicans to oppose President Obama.
Democrats’ unwavering support may change as rank-and-file party member sentiment changes and pols respond to that. Can’t speak for y’all, but my sentiment has damn sure changed over the past several years. I used to feel as neutral toward Israel as I feel toward, say, Luxembourg. Now I don’t want a dime of my tax money spent to prop up that country’s corrupt and hostile (toward MY interests) government.
Netanyahu has placed all his chips on red. If America manages to pull out of this nose-dive, that may turn out to be a very bad bet indeed.
Ruviana
Ooh, a bigfoot photo-finish!
ruemara
I gotta be blunt. The way things are going right now, it’s solid bet that the world will be red. Can’t say it’s my full gut instinct, but definitely leaning towards “yeah, we lost and I don’t know where things go from here, but not good.” Still too much ego and misinfo on our side for us to be unified and still too many acting like the dumb people in horror movies who’ve never seen a zombie and keep asking their zombie pal if they need help just before they get eaten.
JPL
@ruemara: I am horrified about what is happening.
Annie
OK, this is anecdata, but think about what it means if this grows into a trend:
Several of my Jewish friends have sent their teenage/college-age children on trips to Israel. Every single one of the kids came back home horrified at what the Israeli government is doing to Arabs in Israel and in the Occupied Territories. They don’t want their tax money, when they get old enough to pay taxes, to go to support that government. A couple of these kids have sought out new synagogues to attend to get away from the one that support Israel unquestioningly.
What happens if this attitude becomes widespread in the American Jewish community?
Not to mention that Israel’s religious authorities have big problems with Reform Judaism, and not-as-big problems with Conservative Judaism, branches to which a large number of American Jews belong.
What happens if this alienates American Jews from Israel?
dww44
Thanks for this. I fervently hope that you are right that we can overcome this virulent nationalism and authoritarianism curently plaguing so much of the Western world.The fact that Trump can call out Democrats and the media and anyone who opposes him for being treasonous and anti American without being taken to task by the members of his own party while Ilhan Omar is excoriated on the right and the left (thanks Schumer) for her sane and rational remarks about the modern State of Israel speaks volumes about where we are today.
It is not a good place and makes me blind with rage most days of the week. We will get out of this only when there’s a critical mass of Republicans who will stand up for what is right and eschew the perks of power
Mike in NC
Fat Bastard is going down to Texas for an anti-immigrant hate rally tonight. Actually I heard there were two planned, but they only mentioned Texas on TV.
rikyrah
@ruemara:
I gotta be blunt. The way things are going right now, it’s solid bet that the world will be red.
Yeah, it’s bad out there;
Betty Cracker
@ruemara: Not saying you’re wrong, but I sure hope you are. Basically, I see it as analogous to Netanyahu siding with the CSA in 1861. We’ll see how that works out — for him and for us.
@Annie: I have similar anecdata. I don’t know how widespread a phenomenon it is, but it’s heartbreaking for my friends in that situation, especially with fascism on the rise all around the world.
Betty Cracker
@dww44:
If that’s the case, we’re screwed.
PJ
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, Republicans are going to turn on Trump when the sun rises in the west and sets in the east.
But I am optimistic, overall, about the prospects for 2020 – that’s a year and a half more of old people dying, and young people getting to vote (if we can get them to vote). Assuming voter suppression and social media manipulation does not increase, and no national security catastrophe (a very big if with Trump in charge), I think we will have a Democratic President and Congress. We will still have a right wing judiciary that will be primed to strike down Democratic legislation, and it will take a long time to undo the damage, but it is not impossible. The media is very slow to get the message, but young people are not buying the conservative bullshit that has been the dogma of Very Serious People for the last 40 years. Can we do it? As a prominent Democrat put it, “Yes, we can.”
feebog
@dww44:
Nope. There are more of us then there are of them. We gotta get our voters to the polls despite the gerrymandering and voter suppression. Not ever going to count on Republicans to do the right thing.
Gin & Tonic
In the meantime, the largest country in Europe is poised to elect a (literal) TV comedian in about a week and a half. I’ll grant he’s not a fascist, but he is well-known simply for playing some schlub who accidentally becomes President. So, of course, this schlub is very likely actually to become President, in large part because people are just saying “fuck you” – like the Trumpists did when they went in the booth in November of 2016.
Magic 8-Ball says “Outlook not so good.” And it’s not talking about e-mail.
eemom
@dww44:
What fucking planet are you on? When’s the last time ONE republican did that?
Being a republican today, at least an elected one, is synonymous with being purely evil. No buts ifs or ands.
kindness
Short answer: It ends abysmally for Israel. Bibi annexes the West Bank Settlements. Trump says the US now sees these as Israeli land.
See, Bibi wants the Palestinians to fight. That is the way Bibi thinks he can either kill them all or more likely exile them all from Palestine. Yea, that is far fetched, but I don’t see any other reason Bibi is trying to provoke this fight. WWIII will come of it. Lots of people on all sides die and our Evangelical traitors get a sad when fairy tale Jesus doesn’t come back after all the death and carnage. Sorry. Not an uplifting post, I know.
ruemara
@kindness: Not uplifting, but probably true.
rikyrah
@dww44:
I have to agree and disagree. As with the comment on top of yours, there is a shift growing with the Democrats and Israel. There was a time when Rep. Omar would have been condemned outright.
The immense pushback -by Democrats -by forced them to change that bullshyt statement altogether. That was indication of , if not a sea change, a whole lot of ripples. There are a number of loyal Democrats, who are not anti-Semitic, but have serious and legitimate issues with the 51st state. and, we are a fast growing segment in the party.
Ian G.
Anecdotally, I see a big generational difference in Israel support in my largely secular liberal New York friends and acquaintances. The 65+ crowd who had relatives who survived the Holocaust and who saw large Arab armies invade a social democracy still think it’s 1967 and likely always will until they die.
Younger people have far less of an affinity for what they see as a regional superpower that is gone off a far-right cliff.
As the cohort of solid Democrats who are also solid Israel supporters dies off and Israel support becomes almost exclusively an evangelical Christian thing, I just don’t see how kissing Likud’s ass will remain a thing in the Democratic Party.
The Israel of Avraham Burg is an Israel I’d be an ally of, but I doubt that such a country can be salvaged at this point.
SiubhanDuinne
@JPL:
I am literally (literally literally, not metaphorically literally) sick-to-my-stomach scared to death over what is happening everywhere in the world.
In general I’m a pretty hopeful, optimistic, positive person. But these days, it ain’t easy.
gene108
@Annie:
Not much.
As long as the Fundies are convinced they need Israel for the return of Christ and/or the Rapture and/or Armageddon, or whatever, Israel will always have a home in the USA.
There are enough American Jews, who are not on board with Nitinyahu’s policies we should be hearing from them more, but for whatever reason, they get overwhelmed by the American Jews, who will unquestioningly follow whatever Nitinyahu’s government does.
FelonyGovt
I’m Jewish and was raised to support Israel strongly. My liberal Jewish contemporaries and I are horrified to see what Israel has become. I think that’s a pretty prevalent attitude even among my age group (I’m 65).
SiubhanDuinne
@eemom:
I agree with you, eemom.
Fucking local NPR station was fluffing GA Sen Johnny Isakson earlier today for expressing regret over a couple of recent vet suicides in the state. What the fuck is newsworthy or special about that? Isn’t that (a) part of his job, and (b) a normal human being reaction? Why the fuck does it deserve a headline on local Morning Edition?
Ruckus
@PJ:
I know that some of those old farts are not any shade of red. I also know a few of them who are gone already. But not all of the olds left are conservative either. And a lot of them are pissed. It is possible that we can pull this off but it will take all of us to do it. We can’t just squeak by. We have to do this like it’s the last chance for all the olds who don’t want to be living under that bridge.
Parfigliano
I have never wanted a penny of my tax dollar to go to that warmongering apartheid place
J R in WV
@Ian G.:
This.
That social democracy of the 50s and 60s is long gone, replaced by a fascist state indulging in apartheid against its own peoples.
ruemara
@Ruckus: Amen, sir.
Immanentize
When I was younger, I protested against the Shah and argued vehemently that Zionism was NOT racism (a big point of debate way back)
I still believe both my positions were accurate. But were they right?
I also marched against the apartheid regime in South Africa (a true friend of Israel or vice versa).
Now, Israel is on the brink of becoming an apartheid regime. My heart hurts.
eemom
@gene108:
What in the exact fuck is the basis for that statement?
btw, even though I hate the guy, it’s Netanyahu. Looks like your research skills are right up there with your spelling/grammar/punctuation.
Jay
@Gin & Tonic:
Zelensky wasn’t the least qualified cantidate on the ballot, his platform is consistent with his life, ( he’s not trying to reinvent himself), his proposals are sane and needed, and he’s probably the least corrupt of the bunch.
Johnnybuck
@Annie: They’ll always have white evangelicals!
...now I try to be amused
It was never possible for Israel to be a
1. democratic
2. Jewish state
3. including the West Bank.
Israel can only have two out of three. Looks like the Israeli electorate chose to discard democracy.
Immanentize
@eemom: Why is that statement so difficult to parse? The majority of American Jews are not fully behind Israeli policy. But their voices are drowned out by those of “Israel above all” voices.
Jay
@eemom:
The US MSM consistently turns to American Likuiddnick’s like Lillian Pinkus ( AIPAC) to comment on Israel from an American Jewish perspective, not Adam or others.
Dan B
@eemom: Speaking of Republicans the former WA State GOP chair, Chris Vance, has an Op Ed calling for the UE House to impeach Trump immediately.
Commenters are calling him a Rino. We’re calling them RightWingO’s. BTW Vance IS a Republican – hates wealth redistribution. But he doesn’t seem to hate minorities or women.
geg6
To start off, I’m not Jewish (not any religion—they all suck, IMHO). I am also not an anti-Semite. But fuck Israel. Just fuck that apartheid shithole country. When I was young, I was a huge supporter of Israel and Golda Meir was a childhood heroine. Later, I just kept on thinking Israel was the same country as the one I read books about in my youth. In the last decade or so, my views have gone in the complete opposite direction. The last straw for me, after becoming more and more upset over their treatment of the Palestinians and the right turn of their politics and the rise of the orthodox religionists, was Bibi’s utter disrespect toward Obama. That was it for me. I’m over my schoolgirl crush and deeply disgusted by Israel. I’m sick of treating them as a sister state. I’m sick of my tax dollars going there to prop up a deeply immoral and dangerous state. Most of my Jewish friends sadly agree. Bibi wants to start a war. Screw him. Boycott and divest, I say. Fuckem.
🐾BillinGlendaleCA
@Dan B:
Sounds like a RINO.
LivinginExile
Today I mailed a copy of “They dare to speak out” to IlhanOmar. It was written by Paul Findley, a former congressman from my district. He was a Republican before they went completely off the rails. The book describes in great detail the consequences to politicians that have tried an evenhanded approach with Israel and the Palestinians.
Ladyraxterinok
@Gin & Tonic: Sorry. Out of loop on this–What country? What person? Freaks me out that I don’t know what you’re talking about!!
Ohio Mom
@Immanentize: One thing to remember about the American Jewish population is that only about half of us are formally affiliated with a synagogue or other Jewish organization.
The affiliated half makes a lot of pro-Israel noise — the national organizations speak on their behalf. Or maybe I should say, Our behalf, whether we like it or not.
The unaffiliated half has no megaphone because they are not organized. If they were organized into a Jewish group, they’d be, by definition, affiliated with the community.
I think you can see where this is going: we are unlikely to hear much from American Jews who are disgusted with Israel.
@Annie: Your anecdote made me chuckle. Talk about something backfiring! The idea behind those teenage pilgrimages is to foster strong ties to Israel.
If the kids are coming back repulsed or at best, ambivalent, Bronfman (the big funder behind the program) is going to have to come up with a Plan B for “keeping young people Jewish.”
I get that all liberal religions have this problem, mainline Protestants are also losing their membership to people assimilating out and identifying as having no religion.
I certainly understand why this is a cause of panic among my coreligionists. But I always thought focusing on Israel instead of creating a Judaism that speaks to contemporary circumstances was a bad bet.
Jay
@Ladyraxterinok:
Ukraine. The leading Presidential Cantidate after the first round of voting is a comic and actor, who’s most prominent role, is playing the “accidental” President on a tv show.
On the other hand, he’s not the least qualified cantidate, he’s the most “authentic” one, he has a good and sane platform, and he’s the least corrupt.
Ladyraxterinok
@kindness: As I get the message from televangelist Evangelicals/Findamentalists, God gave it all–WestBank, GolanHeights, Jerusslem, Palestine to Jews when they escaped Egypt. Any other land division directly goes against the will of god.
Yrs ago OK RepSen Inhofe gave a Senate speech clearly setting this all out, including all the necessary OT passages.
At the time this kind of ‘proof-texting’ speech was extremely rare. Now…..
chris
@Ladyraxterinok: Ukraine, I think.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_presidential_election
eemom
@Immanentize:
The statement was this:
I didn’t say it was “difficult to parse”. I said what’s the evidence for it? Now that you’ve parroted it, I’ll ask you.
@Jay:
Ah yes, the MSM — the very best indicator there is of what the majority of any minority thinks. Do they speak for “the majority of American Blacks” too?
Oh wait, I forgot — the Jews CONTROL the media. My bad.
Jay
@eemom:
That’s quite an anti-semetic comment. Have some pie.
eemom
@Jay:
Pie away, idiot.
Oh, and it’s “anti-Semitic”.
Is there some correlation between making ignorant assumptions about the opinions of groups of which one is not a member and a second grade spelling level?
Ladyraxterinok
@Ladyraxterinok: Got answer in comments I read after I posted this,
eemom
@Ohio Mom:
Thank you.
I see this the same way I did the Northam controversy. Members of the affected minority are the only ones who have a right to pass judgment…and I have nothing but contempt for non-members who presume to speak for them.
Kent
I’ve been suprised and shocked at the pro-Netanyahu garbage I’ve been getting on Facebook from Fundie relatives and neighbors. Not pro-Israel, which is to be expected. But blatently pro-Netanyahu. It’s like he is Li’l Trump to them.
One forwarded a pro-Netanyahu article about the election with the caption: Because the Bible tells me so….!!!!! YES!!! #alwayspray4Israel
Sigh….
Ohio Mom
@eemom: As I said in my comment above, unaffiliated American Jews who are not happy with Israel have no spokesperson to represent their views. Sure, a newsperson could interview Adam but all that would be is a-man-on-the-street interview, Adam could only speak for himself. And affiliated Jews who are not all-in with everything Israel does are ignored.
I do wonder if the national Jewish organizations have any real numbers on how many Jews are no longer identifying with Israel.
These organizations tend to be in a bubble; about twenty years ago someone commissioned a big survey and the national leadership was knocked over at the finding that American Jews were poor in the same proportion as other white Americans. They thought we were all comfortable and so hadn’t thought to check out their assumption. After all, everyone they knew in their little circles was doing just fine.
Maybe they think we all think Israel could do no wrong and it hasn’t occurred to them to question their assumption. Because that’s the attitude of everyone in their little circles.
Or maybe they’ve done the research, know that Israel is an increasing turn-off and are petrified to admit this.
LivinginExile
Aren’t there several Jewish organizations like J-Street, that are speaking out, not against Israel, but for fairness for the Palestinians?
Procopius
Long ago and far away, there was a Jewish group that called themselves “J Street,” in homage to the famous home of lobbying, “K Street.” For a brief while they were somewhat known for trying to oppose AIPAC’s most vicious efforts. I haven’t heard of them for many years. Did they give up? Lose their funding? Disband? Did the five guys who own the media just decide they weren’t newsworthy any more?
LivinginExile
@Procopius: No idea.
Ohio Mom
@LivinginExile: Yes, there are several organizations like J Street, and also at least one non-Orthodox group that repudiates Zionism all together (some ultra-Orthodox groups don’t recognize the government of Israel because only God can bring Israel into being).
But these groups are basically on the fringe. Maybe a good comparison is the NRA vs. Moms Demand.
Yeah, we here all support Moms Demand in theory but are we sending them money, going to meetings, marching? Meanwhile the NRA remains the juggernaut.
Procopius
@Immanentize:
Marching against the Shaw was right, without a doubt. I think the current fear/hatred of Iran is wrong, and stupid. I think arguing that Zionism was not racism was right at the time. I think what has happened is that Zionism has become racist. I think that a country that was 95% immigrants has become nativist.
chopper
@eemom:
the basis is fucking reality. lots and lots, tons, of american jews are not on board with this shit. i’m one of them. and we all have a habit of getting drowned out by the ones who are all at the least ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ if not ‘eh, fuck em!’
chopper
@Procopius:
omg, you misspelled ‘shah’! your opinion is worthless!!!!!
Gin & Tonic
@eemom:
To pass judgment on what, precisely? As a taxpayer of a country which provides an average of $3 billion per year in direct aid to Israel, I think I have a right to express an opinion on the results of their election. I believe every American is a “stakeholder,” to use a current term.
chopper
@Procopius:
the funny thing about J street is that there is no J street in DC. tho GW’s food hall was nicknamed J street which was funny.
eemom
@Ohio Mom:
Have you ever read The Chosen? That is such a great book. (apropos of the above because the ultra Orthodox rabbi who is the dad of one of the main characters believes that, even right after the Holocaust)
chopper
@eemom:
as i remember you’re greek orthodox, not jewish, but you seem keen on speaking for jews.
eemom
@chopper:
And indeed, the fact that there IS no J Street seems sadly prescient
eemom
@chopper:
Like I said above, I don’t presume to speak FOR any group of which I’m not a member. But I am very keen on speaking out against anti-Semitism, maybe because I’ve always felt a strong affinity for Jewish people. Maybe because of growing up in NYC and/or the many cultural similarities between Greeks and Jews, who knows.
chopper
@eemom:
great! hope there’s not a “but…” after this.
oh, fuck me.
SiubhanDuinne
@eemom:
One of my top ever in the history of the entire world books.
J R in WV
@Jay:
Actually, it was an anti-MainStreamMedia comment, with little to do with the Jewish community. At least to me.
But I’m not Jewish…
chopper
it’s nice to have allies who will call out anti-semitism. the problem is half the time you end up with a bunch of wannabe-allies who are so reflexively pro-israel that you have some goyishe-ass motherfucker yelling at you over your issues with the israeli government.
eemom
@chopper:
Well, if you think that’s what I am, this is a case of it’s not me, it’s you. Because I have no argument with anybody who says the Israeli government is fucked. It is really, REALLY fucked. And I fucking hate Bibi, aka trump with a brain.
Ohio Mom
@eemom: I read The Chosen a very long time ago and hardly remember it except that I thought it a fun read.
Nowadays I wouldn’t read it because I can’t stand to see the ultra Orthodox sentimentalized. I have come to understand them as the type of misogynist fundamentalists who stand for everything I don’t. Guess I was more innocent back then. Ah, youth…
Ohio Mom
@chopper: Yup.
Gin & Tonic
@Ohio Mom:
Now, also, a real and present danger to the public health because of their refusal to vaccinate their children.
Bill Arnold
A few links while poking at Israeli political trends:
Vox, today. Pretty good piece IMO.
Israeli democracy is rotting from the inside – Tuesday’s election results exposed two major threats to Israeli democracy. (Zack Beauchamp Apr 10, 2019)
Wondering about immigration (to Israel) from the FSU and its effects on current Israeli politics. This one from 2009 is open, search on FSU
Auditing Israeli Democracy – 2009 Twenty Years of Immigration from the Soviet Union (PDF, 2009, Asher Arian, Michael Philippov, Anna Knafelman)
e.g.
This one is paywalled, but is interesting:
Old values in the new homeland: political attitudes of FSU immigrants in Israel (HTML, 2010, Michael Philippov & Anna Knafelman)
Jay
@J R in WV:
It was very clear what eemom was trying to do, and to try do it she used an anti-semetic slur right out of The Protocols,….
Bill Arnold
@Jay:
It was a sarcastic comment. (maybe not well drawn, since the argument had gotten a little heated.)
Jay
@Bill Arnold:
The only person getting heated, was eemom.
She made it very clear what she was trying to do, and to try to do it she posted an anti-semetic slur.
Ohio Mom
@Gin & Tonic: I just saw that bit of news, that some Hasidim in Brooklyn aren’t vaccinating their kids. I didn’t read the article very carefully though. There are a number of different sects (some not on speaking terms with others). I’ll have to go back and see which one(s) it is.
The news story in this area, in Northern Kentucky, is that the members of an ultra Catholic parrish are foregoing certain vaccines because they were developed using lung cells of aborted fetuses. With the predictable results of a childhood disease outbreak.
The Vatican encourages vaccinations but this group rejects Vatican II and all that came after.
The anti-vax movement has gone way past “vaccines cause autism,” and has morphed into something bigger. Weird and disturbing, this bit of the zeitgeist.
eemom
@Jay:
Is this what you’re talking about?
Shit, I forgot the snark tags. 😳
Oh wait again. No I didn’t. Because anybody who thought I meant that literally is either (1) too stupid to know how to read, or (2) too zoned out on drugs to remember to breathe, or (3) an utterly disingenuous asshole.
My money’s on (3), but who knows. There could be some Canadian goat fucker syndrome I’m not aware of.
dww44
@eemom: I live on Planet Earth. Specifically in the Southern Red part of the US of A. I have lots of Republicans relatives and friends. Many of them are currently silent re Trump;they were silent during the last years of GWB. There are lots of Republicans not in office who have turned on Trump. What has not yet happened is that the ones in office have not turned. I believe that when the Mueller Report is released, there will be enough dismay in the wider electorate that the tide will turn. Yes, we Democrats have to fight the fight to get the truth out, but, honestly, what kind of country will we have going forward if a critical mass of GOP supporters don’t actually see and acknowledge the sheer evil that is Donald Trump and his administration.
prob50
@FelonyGovt said: I’m Jewish and was raised to support Israel strongly. My liberal Jewish contemporaries and I are horrified to see what Israel has become. I think that’s a pretty prevalent attitude even among my age group (I’m 65).
Agreed – (I’m 69)
prob50
@Ohio Mom said:: </But I always thought focusing on Israel instead of creating a Judaism that speaks to contemporary circumstances was a bad bet.
This.
Jay
“FL Governor DeSantis Announces Cabinet Meeting In Israel
Ron DeSantis is just fine with taxpayers and lobbyists footing the bill for the state cabinet to meet in a foreign country to conduct official state business.
By Karoli Kuns”
crooksandliars.com/2019/04/fl-governor-desantis-announces-cabinet
Jay
“Just look at the US congress when Netanyahu addresses it. The representatives of the United States stand up and applaud and sit down and again stand up and applaud and sit down – 29 times in 2011 and 39 times in 2015. I always watch this act of US legislative grovelling with a smile, for it reminds me of the ovations which Saddam Hussein would always receive from his beloved people and which Bashar al-Assad always received – and still receives – from his loyal subjects. I can well see why Middle East leaders spot parallels between the Arab world and America.”
independent.co.uk/voices/trump-israel-elections-netanyahu-us-golan-heights-a8840301.html