Target for the Evening Open Thread: David Frum, Immigrant, Wants to Pull Up the Ladder Behind Him

Not The Onion: the subhed is “If Liberals Won’t Enforce Borders, Fascists Will“.

Now that TNR is effectively defunct, perhaps we should change the sarcastic tagline to #EvenTheLibertarianTheAtlantic

Best rebuttal I’ve seen so far:

David Frum is an elitist by both profession and temperament and has been cloistered among America’s tiniest percentiles of rich, blood-drenched scumbags literally for longer than I’ve been alive. He has no fucking clue what “voters” want or will do, beyond what he can glean from election results cherrypicked to support his argument that border enforcement trumps all other political values—and that Donald Trump’s ascension expresses specifically this, rather than a broader systemic breakdown that allowed a minority white-identity party to claim an election it otherwise definitively lost. That’s why last autumn’s kayfabe panic over the migrant caravan gets credulous treatment in his analysis, but the immediately subsequent ass-kicking the nativist Republican party took in the midterm elections, at the hands of the comparably immigration-tolerant Democrats, scores nary a mention.

Which is to restate the obvious: David Frum is not speaking for, cannot speak for, “voters.” He is speaking for himself, and for some fellow members of his small and absurdly overrepresented social class. What he is saying is Rich establishment conservatives like me would rather go fascist than tolerate brown people. He is talking himself into supporting Trump in the 2020 election. He wants you to know that, when it happens, it will be because immigrants gave him no choice. It must be nice to be able to do that in the pages of The Atlantic.

107 replies
  1. 1
    eemom says:

    So much for our “allies,” the “reasonable” nevertrumptards. 🙄

  2. 2
    debbie says:

    I’d like to see Frum mucking out his own gutters.

  3. 3
    Citizen Alan says:

    So in other words, the Atlantic under Jeffrey Goldberg has gotten even worse since the Kevin Williamson fiasco. Good to know.

  4. 4
    PsiFighter37 says:

    The ‘Never Trump’ Republicans have never been good people to begin with. Frum, Ana Navarro, Max Boot, George Will…they are all still asshole pigfuckers at heart.

    PF37 +1

  5. 5
    Lyrebird says:

    Bring back the
    “Will Trade Racists for Refugees” signs!

  6. 6

    David Frum is, and has always been, a conservative. He’s a bigot who likes to hurt people. What he hates, and has hated since the rise of the Tea Party, is for people to be uncouth about it instead of pretending these are mature and rational opinions. He is Reaganism made flesh, and the kind of Republican that the voters in the party have lost patience with because the non-batshit approach allowed a black man to become president.

  7. 7
    Mary G says:

    He and Andrew Sullivan are determined to make racism great again. They can DIAF together.

  8. 8
    Brachiator says:

    I was at a real physical news stand, buying some magazines and saw this issue of The Atlantic. I almost bought it, but decided against it.

    I didn’t realize that the article would be so putrid, so retrograde, so goddam pointless.

    And I totally agree with the concluding sentences of the Deadspin takedown:

    He is talking himself into supporting Trump in the 2020 election. He wants you to know that, when it happens, it will be because immigrants gave him no choice. It must be nice to be able to do that in the pages of The Atlantic.

    I expect similar cowardice from a certain cadre of pundits as we get closer to 2020.

  9. 9
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Brachiator:

    I didn’t realize that the article would be so putrid, so retrograde, so goddam pointless.

    Well, they *did* put Frum’s name on it, which should’ve constituted fair warning!

  10. 10
    trollhattan says:

    Oh man, this is front-paged at LGM.

    A federal court of appeals in New York on Monday took the first step in unsealing documents that could reveal evidence of an international sex trafficking operation allegedly run by multimillionaire Jeffrey Epstein and his former partner, British socialite Ghislaine Maxwell.

    The three-judge panel for the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit gave the parties until March 19 to establish good cause as to why they should remain sealed and, failing to do so, the summary judgment and supporting documents will be made public. The court reserved a ruling on the balance of the documents in the civil case, including discovery materials.

    I’d really though Trump was hosed when his name came up as one of Epstein’s party mates and specifically with a 13 YO. Who can guess what the unsealed documents might show?

  11. 11
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    This is the same fucking asshole who said,

    “If conservatives become convinced that they cannot win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. They will reject democracy.”

    I guess he was talking about himself there too

  12. 12
    Brachiator says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    I didn’t realize that the article would be so putrid, so retrograde, so goddam pointless.

    Well, they *did* put Frum’s name on it, which should’ve constituted fair warning!

    Fair point.

  13. 13
    debbie says:

    @trollhattan:

    Jesus, these Maxwells are like bad pennies.

  14. 14
    NotMax says:

    Fee fie foe fum
    I smell fresh sh*t from one David Frum

  15. 15
    eemom says:

    So, what’s the over under on that other born again “ally,” Jennifer Rubin, breaking all of our hearts?

    Love to say I told you so, but I never bought into that credulous crap.

  16. 16

    I guess Frum is safe, he came to the US from Canada in the late 70’s, not the 90’s or after(apparently that’s when they let anybody in). //

    Interesting, he was a classmate of Michele Obama at HLS.

  17. 17
    chris says:

    Frum is an immigrant. Someone should call the ICE tipline and report him for overstaying his visa. Maybe add that he’s stupid and dangerous.

    Thanks, AL, for the Deadspin piece. No way I was gonna read Frum.

  18. 18
    comrade scotts agenda of rage says:

    Per Driftglass several years back, Frum is simply stating another variation of Republican Detachment Disorder.

  19. 19
    Aleta says:

    Via Cheryl’s twitter:

    At least 22 of the 157 people who died in the Ethiopian Airlines crash worked for the U.N. doing aid and development. The World Food Program had the highest toll, with seven dead. RIP

    Today I heard that the cause may have been faulty sensors (instead of say, the software) in a newer system to prevent stalls. If the sensors signaled an imminent stall, the system was programmed to point the nose down in response. But there was no pilot override.

    If that’s true, I wonder: surely in the simulators, they would have tested/trained for faulty signals, faulty sensors, or for switching to back-up systems? There was an unpredicted cascade of errors then?

  20. 20
    mrmoshpotato says:

    “Hi Canada. It’s the US. We have some Nazi trash for you.”
    “We don’t want your American Nazi trash.”
    “Fair enough, but this is Canadian Nazi trash – Frum and McInnes.”
    “Erm….*tugs collar*

  21. 21
    phein60 says:

    What gets left out of discussions of immigrants and immigration is that:

    1. Conservatives love immigrants because they can cheat and abuse them.
    2. That’s exactly how they want to be able to treat all workers.

    Commie democrats want workers to be treated like citizens, immigrants or otherwise.

  22. 22
  23. 23
    Baud says:

    If Liberals Won’t Enforce Borders, Fascists Will“.

    I seem to remember when Barack Obama did this in an effort to achieve comprehensive immigration reform. Didn’t exactly stop fascism, now did it?

    You lost your chance.

  24. 24
    Adam L Silverman says:

    As is always the case, had the rules been in place for the time period that Frum is arguing was better, he would not have been allowed into the US as their were strict quotas for Jews.

  25. 25
    Mary G says:

    Hoocoudanode!

    Politico: Facebook takes down Elizabeth Warren ads calling for breakup of Facebook https://t.co/UOsHlCK1mH via @politico— Jake Tapper (@jaketapper) March 11, 2019

  26. 26
    Martin says:

    I think people are reading more prescription here than warning. The point Frum is trying in the article if you read it all to make is that if we keep heading down this path, which is as much or more defined by how the GOP demagogues the issue, then we risk more fascist reactions. I think that’s fair. It’s not helpful for us to try and wave away authoritarianism as ‘well, they shouldn’t do that’. His point is that they will do that. Some of the problem is defined by the lack of proper immigration reform leading to as system that everyone thinks is pretty fucked up.

    My attitude here has been fairly clear. I don’t give a shit if Nebraskans are pissed off about immigrants. He’s saying that’s a dangerous attitude. I don’t disagree that’s its dangerous, I merely don’t have the energy any longer to have a better attitude.

  27. 27
    debbie says:

    @Aleta:

    Here and Now (WBUR) interviewed an American Airlines pilot who flies this plane. He said Boeing provided noinformation about the anti-stalling system in the manual they distributed. He said the entire training was a six-minute presentation on an iPad.

  28. 28
    Yutsano says:

    Can we just send him back to Canada now?

  29. 29
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Ugh. Turns out McInnes is English-born with UK/Canadian citizenship. They can fight over him.

  30. 30
    Mandalay says:

    Some brighter news from Stacey Abrams:

    In #LeadFromTheOutside, I explore how to be intentional about plans, but flexible enough to adapt. 20 years ago, I never thought I’d be ready to run for POTUS before 2028. But life comes at you fast – as I shared in Q&A w @Yamiche at @sxsw. Now 2020 is definitely on the table…

    Of course that thread is flooded with well meaning fuckwits and trolls saying “run for the Senate instead”. They might have a point if she didn’t have a hope of becoming president, but I think she’s way better than everyone who is already running.

  31. 31
    Baud says:

    @Martin: See my # 23.

  32. 32
    Miss Bianca says:

    Oh, I am just so goddamned enraged right now about this shit. God damn all these white mofos with their pathetic superiority complexes. God damn their efforts to hinder, judge, ruin, or kill any black or brown person who dares to try to say, “Hey, the American Dream is a dream for me, too!”

    God damn, every white person in America has to rise up and say “Enough, stop promoting this shit in my name.” Listen, white folks – if ‘pride in your heritage’ has to come more from what you’re not – not Black, not Jewish, not Muslim, not Hispanic – than from what you *are*, then frankly, you are seriously fucked up. Whiteness can kiss my fine white onion. I am done ever, ever, ever making excuses ever again for anyone who promotes racist shit by word or deed, whether they be friends or family or perfect strangers.

    ETA: I can’t believe I read Frum’s novel and actually kind of liked it. Blech.

  33. 33
    hilts says:

    @PsiFighter37:

    The ‘Never Trump’ Republicans have never been good people to begin with. Frum, Ana Navarro, Max Boot, George Will…they are all still asshole pigfuckers at heart.

    Also Bret Stephens and Bill Kristol.

  34. 34
    Aleta says:

    @Aleta: But here’s what James Fallows (a pilot who sometime writes about plane and airline safety and accidents) wrote in the Atlantic today.

    Short version

    Long version

  35. 35
    Baud says:

    Preview of the next State of the Union

    Russia’s parliament has passed two bills outlawing “disrespect” of authorities and the spreading of what the government deems to be “fake news”.

    The first ban refers to “blatant disrespect” of the state, its officials and Russian society, and repeat offenders face up to 15 days in jail.

    The second bill prohibits sharing “false information of public interest, shared under the guise of fake news,” the TASS state news agency reported.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-47488267

  36. 36
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Martin: No, that’s not the point. I read the article. Frum presents a binary choice: fascists being chosen by a frightened, authoritarian curious electorate willing to follow the first demagogue who will bring their fears to life and then vanquish them for them and then no borders or border controls or limits on immigration at all. This is a strawman argument. There is no actual Democrat running for office, nor in office, including those that want to see ICE and C&BP broken up, reorganized, and given appropriate missions regarding immigration, border control, and customs enforcement, arguing for completely open borders with no entry and immigration controls so that anyone who just shows up is suddenly an American.

    What Frum has presented with his false choice strawman is the bullshit fear that the President, Steve King, Tom Cotton, Jeff Sessions, John Kelly, Stephen Miller, Tom Tancredo, John Tanton and the rest of the white supremacists have been peddling and demagoguing to get into and maintain power. What Frum didn’t present was a discussion that twice now the Democrats have managed to get a comprehensive immigration reform package through one chamber of Congress only to have the most revanchist elements of the Republican caucus kill it in the other chamber based on exactly this strawman argument. All with the support of a progressively more white nationalist conservative movement. This isn’t Frum warning Democrats and the center left to the left of center and progressives to liberals. This is Frum providing an excuse for his emerging embrace of fascism, more in sorrow than in anger, more in sadness than in fear, for the good of the US. A country that he wouldn’t even have been allowed to come to had the rules he indicates were appropriate in place when he and his family came to the US because those rules had strict limits on the numbers of Jews who could immigrate every year.

  37. 37
    Scuffletuffle says:

    Completely OT, so apologies, but do any residents geeks have advice that might help me stream HBO Now on my Android tablet? Their IT people have not been at all helpful and I would really like to get some value from the monthly fee they are refusing to refund to me.

  38. 38
    Baud says:

    @Scuffletuffle:

    I’ve never had a problem with their app. What’s the issue?

  39. 39
    TS (the original) says:

    @trollhattan:

    I’d really though Trump was hosed

    The only hosing he may get is at the polls, but given the GOP’s voter suppression that is doubtful. The party of family values is all for the biggest con man the world has ever seen. It says so much about the US that they elected him to push back against the black guy and the white lady.

  40. 40
    Dan B says:

    @Baud: The GOP needs people to fear and hate. Reforming immigration will only shift who is hated and feared. The majority of Americans support DEM policies but can’t overcome their fear of “the other”.

    Frum is covering his prejudice with a fear mongering argument that it could be worse.

  41. 41
    Duane says:

    @debbie: Frum is the muck in his own gutters.

  42. 42
    Jay says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Triple Yup!

    👏👏👏👏👏👏

  43. 43
    chopper says:

    you know you hate immigrants when you trash them for not having drug problems.

  44. 44
    Scuffletuffle says:

    @Baud: I get a message that the video can’t be played, check my internet or try again later. Problem is, my internet is fine, I can play video anywhere else, just not there. Tried rebooting my devices, uninstalling and
    reinstalling the app, but no joy. I just don’t understand why I can’t get their video to play.

  45. 45
    B.B.A. says:

    We should grant citizenship to any Mexican or Salvadoran who wants it, because fuck you, that’s why.

  46. 46
    Nicole says:

    Trivia time! Ayn Rand on immigration in 1973:

    In the Q&A following her 1973 Ford Hall Forum address, she was asked: “What is your attitude toward immigration? Doesn’t open immigration have a negative effect on a country’s standard of living?” This is her answer:

    “You don’t know my conception of self-interest. No one has the right to pursue his self-interest by law or by force, which is what you’re suggesting. You want to forbid immigration on the grounds that it lowers your standard of living — which isn’t true, though if it were true, you’d still have no right to close the borders. You’re not entitled to any “self-interest” that injures others, especially when you can’t prove that open immigration affects your self-interest. You can’t claim that anything others may do — for example, simply through competition — is against your self-interest. But above all, aren’t you dropping a personal context? How could I advocate restricting immigration when I wouldn’t be alive today if our borders had been closed?”

    Also, Frum is garbage human.

  47. 47
  48. 48
    jl says:

    I can’t keep up with the nonsense. I’m still trying to figure out the Captain Marvel nonsense flap.

    But, will note that 1915 is a convenient cut-point. The huge waves of open border (and after 1880s, almost open border for non-Asian) Irish, Swedish, Norwegian, Italian, Slavic, Polish, and Jewish (edit: and Chinese and Japanese)) immigration were dying down. And actually, due to political turmoil in Mexico, a very big, if not huge, wave of immigration from Mexico was about to begin, but nobody bothered to track it much, because Mexicans were considered a better type of docile worker immigrant than those dangerous Poles, Jews, and Italians. And way back in the day, better than the Irish, though I guess they were too far along on their way towards being deemed ‘white’ for anyone to care much.

    Anyway, Frum spouts nonsense. I thought he was only borderline nuts and bigot, so thanks for the heads up. I’ll remember.

  49. 49
    Baud says:

    @Scuffletuffle: How long has this been going on? It might be a problem on their end. Can you log into HBO on your computer and play video?

  50. 50
    eemom says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    I am so sorry about your dog.

  51. 51

    Frum has always been full of shit. In addition to being a racist bigot he is also a misogynist, he approvingly retweets the likes of Jordan Peterson and Christina Hoff Summers.

  52. 52
    jl says:

    @schrodingers_cat: For some reason, youtube offered me a clip of Jordan Peterson explaining, celebrating and defending his ‘all beef’ diet. I didn’t click.

    I did click a link next to it where he tries to explain the statistics of IQ tests. Well, he understands frequentist sampling theory and what it means about how to interpret those statistics. I didn’t see much else he understood about the pros and cons of IQ tests. If the beef diet comes up again, I still won’t click.

  53. 53
    WaterGirl says:

    @Scuffletuffle: I can think of no reason why these would be related, but my HBO is not working right now on my TV. it says I don’t have any of the HBO channels. I had them yesterday.

    ??

    edit: I just saw Baud’s comment. I would be very interested to know if HBO is working on other people’s devices.

  54. 54
    Scuffletuffle says:

    @Baud: I only have the tablet and Android smartphone. I signed up last Friday and have been able to watch an episode here and there, but only by rebooting and uninstalling/reinstalling repeatedly in between each episode. Tonight I am not having any success at all. Their tech guys just keep telling me to clear my cache and reinstall, but that doesn’t help and doesn’t seem like it should be necessary.

  55. 55
    Keith P. says:

    Tucker’s got some more tapes coming out soon, so that’s going to be entertainment all week, esp if he loses advertisers.

  56. 56
    Baud says:

    @Scuffletuffle:

    Both the tablet and the phone are having problems?

    I’m out of ideas. I’ve never had that problem before.

  57. 57
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Did you see that I am having HBO problems on my TV? It suddenly says I am not authorized for those channels. Coincidence?

  58. 58
    Baud says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Can you get it on any of your devices?

  59. 59
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Maybe Frum needs access to GOP friendly operatives in order to run his GOP friendly consulting biz, get focus groups, etc? Or get his stuff marketed and bought?

    I saw some polling that shows majority of US population thinks immigration makes country stronger and better, and that majority has risen throughout the Trump years. And needless to say, Frum is wrong on the facts, immigration has stabilized, or rising very slowly, since 2005, much slower than most previous periods. And as a proportion of population, immigration has been decreasing. And no evidence that it is a major driving force in stall in real pay or working status of US population, and lots of evidence it helps most people.

    It is a completely fraudulent issue.

    Edit: looked at the time series for above, and I verified that 1915 appears to be a very carefully cherry picked year.

  60. 60
    Scuffletuffle says:

    @Baud: Haven’t tried on my phone, just the tablet. Maybe I will try on phone. Thanks anyway. Thanks, WaterGirl, too.

  61. 61
    NotMax says:

    @Scuffletuffle

    Sounds elementary, but have you checked that you have the latest update for the app installed? Also the latest update for your flavor of Android?

    Another thing to try is to shut down the tablet and then reset your router by unplugging it, waiting 30 seconds or so and then plugging it back in and letting it boot up. Then fire up the tablet and check if that helped.

    A more remote possibility for the source of the problem is another app you have installed which is sloppily designed and is interfering with the HBO Now app (or just plain hogging resources). Check which, if any, apps you installed begin running on start-up.

  62. 62
    hellslittlestangel says:

    I used to subscribe to The Atlantic. A long time ago. Never again.

  63. 63
    PPCLI says:

    How Much Immigration Is Too Much?

    Admitting someone who will coin idiotic phrases like “Axis of Evil” for the purpose of demagoguing the US into a needless war that cost hundreds of thousands of lives is too much immigration.

  64. 64
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @debbie:

    I was somewhat dubious about “Here and Now” when my local NPR station picked it up a year or so ago, but I admit it has grown on me. They do some good, fairly in-depth, interviews. Maybe not quite Terry Gross level, but better than “Out of time, we’ll have to leave it there.” I did hear the interview with the pilot today.

  65. 65
    SC54HI says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    The mister (a Canadian by birth) and I have never understood why his mother, the wonderful Barbara Frum, hasn’t come back from the dead to kick her son’s worthless ass from D.C. to Tuktoyaktuk and back.

  66. 66
    Jay says:

    @jl:

    “I can’t keep up with the nonsense. I’m still trying to figure out the Captain Marvel nonsense flap.”

    Nothing to figure out. The PUAs/Incels/MGTOWs/Nazis/Mysogenist/Gamegate/Comicgate snowflake alliance is butthurt that a powerful female character is in another highly sucessful superhero movie,

    and a bunch of online sites have taken steps to minimize their attempts to “ratfuck” the movies reviews and rateings.

  67. 67
    hueyplong says:

    If Trump were less crude or, phrased another way, if he had better style points, the NeverTrumpers would love him. Your daily reminder.

  68. 68

    @jl:

    I didn’t see much else he understood about the pros and cons of IQ tests.

    Are there any pros of IQ tests? Seriously, I think it’s been pretty well established that IQ tests have all kinds of biases that mean they aren’t accomplishing their primary goal of measuring innate intelligence.

  69. 69
    Baud says:

    @Roger Moore:

    I think it’s been pretty well established that IQ tests have all kinds of biases 

    Especially against me.

  70. 70
    B.B.A. says:

    @Roger Moore: I like to half-trollingly say that IQ tests measure skin color. Drives the pseudoscientific “how dare you call me racist” types up the wall.

  71. 71
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Just tried on my apple tv.

    “Unable to connect because of problems on the network. try again later.”

  72. 72
    Baud says:

    @WaterGirl: Makes me think the problem is on their end.

  73. 73
    Dr. Ronnie James, D.O. says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Murc’s Law in action. Dammit, Democrats, you *made* them embrace Fascism!

  74. 74
    Kayla Rudbek says:

    @WaterGirl: and I was having trouble with loading websites today with Safari and Adblock. So more than just HBO?

  75. 75
    Raven says:

    @Aleta: My brother was an attorney on the American Airlines Flight 965 crash in Cali, Columbia in 1995. He was on a team that went after Sun Microsystems for the computer failure part of the crash. I always remember that Sun said “computers don’t fly these planes, people do”. Sun lost.

  76. 76
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: I am verifying with Comcast right now to make sure that HBO is still on my account. They just verified that it is still on my account. They are going to try resetting my Tivo box.

    edit: I, too, am thinking that maybe HBO has a problem. I’ll check again as soon as they reset my Tivo box with the cable card in it.

  77. 77
    raven says:

    @WaterGirl: Another good friend in Urbana died today.

  78. 78
    zhena gogolia says:

    I love Rita Hayworth.

  79. 79
    NotMax says:

    @Baud

    There are certainly multiple outages being reported.

    DDOS attacK? GoT junkies overwhelming the servers?

  80. 80
    WaterGirl says:

    @Kayla Rudbek: That was my Apple TV error when I tried HBO. I never connect from anywhere but TV (with Tivo) or Apple TV so my laptop is not set up.

  81. 81
    B.B.A. says:

    Since it’s an open thread, I’ll take the opportunity to say I’m officially off the Gillibrand train after today’s story in *spit* Politico. And since apparently nobody else in the country was supporting her, I expect she’ll be ending her campaign pretty soon.

  82. 82
  83. 83
    HalfAssedHomesteader says:

    He is talking himself into supporting Trump in the 2020 election

    This is the whole of it. On the bright side, I’m relieved I can hate David Frum with wild abandon again.

  84. 84
    WaterGirl says:

    @raven: I’m sorry to hear that. Anyone I might know.

  85. 85
    zhena gogolia says:

    @raven:

    I’ll watch it when this Rita Hayworth movie is over!

  86. 86
    Raven says:

    @WaterGirl: He worked as a supervisor at the physical plant at the U for a number of years. He came to the Uof I from Oak Park in 64, got drafted and went to the Nam and came back to C-U. He was part of the House of Chin/Leather Shop tribe and a genuine wild man. The last 20 years hadn’t been good to him, too much booze and living alone with his books. We’re not sure of his cause of death but he was having alzheimer’s issues so nothing is beyond consideration.

  87. 87
    Raven says:

    @zhena gogolia: If she’s dancing in the movie it’s probably in that video.

  88. 88
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Raven:

    She danced to “I’m Old Fashioned.” Perfection.

  89. 89
    Ruckus says:

    @Mary G:
    They should hold hands and skip.

    Right off a thousand foot high cliff.

  90. 90
    Lapassionara says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Thank you, Adam. My thought exactly. As if Dems want no border control at all. Total straw man. On the cover of a major magazine.

  91. 91
  92. 92
    Ruckus says:

    @Mandalay:
    I posted here not that long ago that my choices are Stacy Abrams, Kamala Harris. I like Stacy better just because she comes across to me as a tiny bit warmer. But Kamala is only a nanometer behind. Kamala is my senator and she really is a pro at what she does, some of the best info hits my mailbox from her. But Stacy talks to me better, maybe she just comes across a bit, I don’t know, is it more personable?

  93. 93
    NotMax says:

    @zhena gogolia

    Daughter of an immigrant from Spain, also too.

  94. 94
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Ruckus: I really like Abrams, though I dont think she has the national image or influence to win a presidential nomination.

    She would be a fantastic VP, especially for someone like Biden who could benefit from some bona fides in this area. And Bernie, come to think of it – if he won but made Stacey Abrams his veep that would go a long way towards making me feel better about his candidacy.

  95. 95
    zhena gogolia says:

    @raven:

    Great!

    @NotMax: Margarita Cansino!

  96. 96
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    if he won but made Stacey Abrams his veep

    Cause that sounds exactly like something Bernie Sanders would do //

  97. 97
    Eric says:

    Anyone commenting actually read the piece? Coincidentally I’d just waded through it (overlong by half) before I saw this post, and it’s 98% quite reasonable. Much more than I expected going in. The cited tweets on top of this post remind me of the hysteria of the “firebaggers” or whatever we used to call the uber liberal purity police.

    Frum is a dope and it’s fair to doubt his motives, but maybe address the actual content rather than your own projections of what you expect it to be? Representative quote where he’s quite realistic about the actual issues:

    “Even at lower immigration levels, America will continue to move rapidly toward greater ethnic diversity. Under today’s policies, the U.S. will become majority-minority in about 2044. Even cutting immigration by nearly half would postpone that historical juncture by only one to five years, according to computations by The Washington Post. The higher birth rates of the immigrants already living in this country have determined what the American future will look like demographically. The challenge for today’s Americans is to allow that new demography to develop in an environment of social equality and cultural cohesion.”

  98. 98
    Ruckus says:

    @Miss Bianca:
    I agree.
    The abject stupidity of many whites towards their fellow human beings still just stuns me daily. It no longer surprises me, not for the last 60 yrs or so, but it still stuns. And the absolute arrogance of a lot of white people, what the fuck?

  99. 99
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Eric: I did, here’s my comment from #36 so you don’t have to go look for it:

    I read the article. Frum presents a binary choice: fascists being chosen by a frightened, authoritarian curious electorate willing to follow the first demagogue who will bring their fears to life and then vanquish them for them and then no borders or border controls or limits on immigration at all. This is a strawman argument. There is no actual Democrat running for office, nor in office, including those that want to see ICE and C&BP broken up, reorganized, and given appropriate missions regarding immigration, border control, and customs enforcement, arguing for completely open borders with no entry and immigration controls so that anyone who just shows up is suddenly an American.

    What Frum has presented with his false choice strawman is the bullshit fear that the President, Steve King, Tom Cotton, Jeff Sessions, John Kelly, Stephen Miller, Tom Tancredo, John Tanton and the rest of the white supremacists have been peddling and demagoguing to get into and maintain power. What Frum didn’t present was a discussion that twice now the Democrats have managed to get a comprehensive immigration reform package through one chamber of Congress only to have the most revanchist elements of the Republican caucus kill it in the other chamber based on exactly this strawman argument. All with the support of a progressively more white nationalist conservative movement. This isn’t Frum warning Democrats and the center left to the left of center and progressives to liberals. This is Frum providing an excuse for his emerging embrace of fascism, more in sorrow than in anger, more in sadness than in fear, for the good of the US. A country that he wouldn’t even have been allowed to come to had the rules he indicates were appropriate in place when he and his family came to the US because those rules had strict limits on the numbers of Jews who could immigrate every year.

  100. 100
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Formerly disgruntled in Oregon: I dont think he’ll win and I’m pretty sure he wouldnt choose Abrams, but it (or something like choosing Kamala) would soothe a lot of feelings.

    So no, not really in the list of things he’d be likely to do. Bernie doesnt do conciliation very well.

  101. 101
    Ruckus says:

    @MisterForkbeard:
    She has the chops. And she would be a far better president than BS or Biden. There are real reasons that Biden has run for president twice and gotten exactly no where. He’s a great human, I’ll give him that. But he is not even close to a leader, which is why he shouldn’t be president. I’ve said here before, I’ve met 4 natural born leaders in my life and in politics, I’ve seen three. JFK. RFK – who was more of a leader than his brother, and President Obama. Biden would be better than BS by a long shot (But so would a number of people on this blog) but he just doesn’t have what it takes to be the person the job needs. Stacy’s got that. So does Kamala Harris. I don’t see that Warren has that either. Warren is wicked smart and she’s good at democratic politics but she lacks that something almost indescribable, that ability to see the levels of importance of what’s next after the 12 things that happened in the last minute. A leader has that. And there are several layers to the answers and they have to unfold like a story in your mind, and they have to do this naturally, not just second nature but first nature.
    In another time, were Abrams and Harris not available, Warren would do. But they are. There might be a couple of men with this, I haven’t seen it though.

  102. 102
    jl says:

    @Eric: Yes I read the whole thing. I think it is shot through and through with bad analysis, falsehoods and tendentious framing. It is a mess. Frum put the most inflammatory falsehoods up at the top, maybe to get attention. Few people are going to read all the way through, but doesn’t make that much difference, since I think there are falshoods and misleading analysis all the way through.

    Frum does make some true points, but vastly outweighed by the false and inflammatory.
    And one falsehood that does go through the whole piece is that, from my read, Frum is saying that liberals are calling anybody who wants to enforce border security is a fascist. That is false. They are saying that the way Trumpsters are handling border security is wrong, and counterproductive, and based on falsehoods. I hear that a lot more than calling Trumpster fascists (which I think is arguable).

    So, looks like we disagree on the merits of the whole piece.

  103. 103
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Ruckus: To me right now, there are two people who seem to have the kind of charisma needed to win these days. Harris and O’Rourke. Harris, as a career prosecutor, does worry me a bit (for those about to jump on me for this: I don’t remotely buy into the Kamala is a cop bullshit, but career prosecutors are the people who overcharge defendants and push for longer and longer sentences for those who are convicted), but I am open to having those worries assuaged. O’Rourke’s resume is a bit thin, so I would be interested in seeing how he would overcome that if he goes for the brass ring.

  104. 104
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: I am so sorry.

  105. 105
    Vhh says:

    @SC54HI: BecaUse David Frum–unlike his parents– is now an entitlement kid.

  106. 106
    Suzanne says:

    I just read this piece today, and there was an absolutely glaring logic error that stood out to me even though I am tired and grumpy and was reading on my phone. Frum laments the costs to the social safety net caused by immigration, then notes that the immigrants who aren’t here legally don’t get to use the social safety net…..but their children do. He doesn’t seem to grasp that their children are likely to be citizens. So he’s whining about citizens using the social safety net. BLAH.

    I can do math in my head, and two plus two says THIS MOTHERFUCKER IS NOT VERY SMART.

  107. 107
    2liberal says:

    @Scuffletuffle: re streaming HBO now:
    1. have you contacted your provider? 2. do you have insurance for your tablet like asurion, with the add on tech support (i used to work for them) 3. where is the failure? can you get logged in? does the app start up at all? a basic fix for apps that don’t work is to uninstall and reinstall 4. do you have any other devices like a phone or a computer that can run HBO now ? if so does it work on them?

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