Trump Fills Diaper in Hanoi

I assume that Adam or Cheryl will write something more substantive on this, but since you’ve all been mentioning it in the comments, two big pieces of news out of Hanoi.

  1. Dear Leader and Dear Leader [Individual 1] were, predictably, unable to come to an agreement because Trump, as usual, was unprepared and thought that he could bullshit a bullshitter. Can’t do that, so Trump cames home early, because golf isn’t going to play itself.
  2. In a press conference in Hanoi, Trump says he believes that Kim didn’t know about the torture of Otto Warmbier, a 22 year-old student who was arrested in NK and died here after being flown home in a coma. As usual, Trump comes off as a credulous fool, thinking that an autocrat like Kim wouldn’t be in control of every aspect of Warmbier’s custody.

That last story is just another example of how being a gross incompetent running an administration that is a rolling shit show actually helps Trump sometimes. We’d normally spend days or weeks talking about Warmbier and stupid remarks like that from another President. For Trump, it’s just another Thursday.






154 replies
  1. 1
    Gin & Tonic says:

    The Biggest Loser.

  2. 2
    JPL says:

    Initially it seemed as though trump waled away, but he told Hannity that he doesn’t like to say that. It was a friendly walk away and they walked away.
    hmmm

  3. 3
    dmsilev says:

    Netanyahu is getting indicted.

    So sad.

  4. 4
    Mike in NC says:

    Fat Bastard fucks it all up again, yet the drooling morons attending CPAC today still think he walks on water.

  5. 5
    hells littlest angel says:

    If Kim had only known about the torture of Warmbier, he would surely have put a stop to it, just has Stalin would have put a stop to the deliberate starvation of Ukrainians, had he only known about it.

  6. 6
    debit says:

    Trump: “Those prisons are rough…He tells me that he didn’t know about it and I will take him at his word.”

    I wish someone would ask Trump if he imagines that the prisons sprang into existence out of nowhere and just mysteriously torture and kill prisoners all by themselves.

  7. 7
    Baud says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Trump has inspired the deplorable base that CPAC covets. Nothing else matters.

  8. 8
    Barbara says:

    Trump loves him some authoritarian thugs. Debasing himself like this to Kim is revolting. I am sure that Kim knew the terms of Warmbier’s custody and is responsible for his detention, even though I also think the North Korean story that Warmbier choked while eating and lost consciousness before his prison guards found him is basically credible. I am sure they have methods like waterboarding that don’t leave marks so I would never express an affirmative opinion on the matter, and I certainly wouldn’t validate Kim’s ego.

  9. 9
    Baud says:

    I assume the quid pro quo is that Kim will issue a statement that he doesn’t believe Trump knew about Russian collusion.

  10. 10
    laura says:

    Individual 1 -a tragedy in three acts no matter what the subject.
    Here, he used Warmbier as a cudgel in the election campaign, then arranged the return of Warmbier on life support as bragging rights for his deal making prowess, and finally, shows his whole ass in giving a pass to KJU as having no knowledge/no role in the conditions of his confinement, bc, like Putin/prince bonesaw/other big strong daddy, Trump will debase himself to curry their praise.
    Rinse, repeat….

  11. 11
    Plato says:

    Thanks to the dotard, lil kim got to toot his own horn, as it were, in the world stage.

  12. 12
    trollhattan says:

    On Point #2, you’ve described the presidency Trump envisioned until…let’s stipulate month 3 in office. So jealous.

  13. 13
    hells littlest angel says:

    @JPL: Sure, they walked away, but they walked away into the sunset, arm-in-arm and whistling a jaunty tune. There wasn’t a dry eye in the theater.

  14. 14
    khead says:

    If I may borrow from Cole’s twitter feed….

    “Just imagine if Democrats were doing any of this shit. Any of it.”

  15. 15
    Mike in NC says:

    Trump Fills Diaper in Hanoi

    Or, “The Shart of the Deal, Part XXIII”

    Fact is, he didn’t like the cuisine in Vietnam anyway. Nobody was selling burnt steaks smothered in ketchup.

    We ought to be grateful he didn’t sign papers denouncing American aggression in both North Korea and Vietnam. Winning!

  16. 16
    randy khan says:

    @hells littlest angel:

    If only the Tsar knew!

  17. 17
    germy says:

    CNN promotes Schultz as a way to help Trump. Zucker & his bff Trump have a deal. Zucker helped Trump win, and Trump pretend-slams CNN to help them compete w/ MSNBC. (Trump never mentions MSNBC) CNN books discredited Trumpkins to legitimize them. We are being played. Again. https://t.co/DjNAuHrlhx— Cheri Jacobus (@CheriJacobus) February 14, 2019

  18. 18
    A Ghost To Most says:

    To be fair, it may be the least damaging thing he’s done all year.

  19. 19
    trollhattan says:

    In domestic affairs, PG&E today acknowledged they’re well and truly self-fvcked.

    PG&E acknowledged Thursday that its power equipment is likely to blame for the Camp Fire, the deadliest fire in California history.

    The company, which filed for bankruptcy a month ago, also said its wildfire liabilities “raise substantial doubt about PG&E Corporation and the utility’s ability to continue as going concerns.” Companies typically use “going concern” language in Securities and Exchange Commission filings when they’re in such dire financial straits that the company’s future existence is in doubt.

    State officials have raised the possibility of forcing PG&E to sell some of its operations, including its natural gas division, to pay wildfire claims. The idea of a state takeover of the utility has also been discussed.

    Announcing its fourth quarter financial results early Thursday, the beleaguered utility said “it is probable that its equipment will be determined to be an ignition point of the 2018 Camp Fire.”

    A faulty transmission tower near the remote community of Pulga, northeast of Paradise, has long been suspected as the probable cause of the November fire, which killed 85 people and destroyed much of Paradise. PG&E said a “broken C-hook” attached to the 115-kilovolt tower was the probable cause of the fire.

    The San Bruno incident was their wake-up call to change their culture. Instead they’ve put their energies into protecting shareholders and officers and board of directors. Several score dead people and thousands of homeless would argue against their chosen path.

  20. 20
    Sebastian says:

    @hells littlest angel:

    If the Czar only knew!

  21. 21
    chopper says:

    my question in another thread was, what did trump have to offer kim? dude’s already getting international recognition, and telling the might US “no dice” only helps in that regard. why the hell would kim sign on to anything, much less anything big?

  22. 22
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @germy: Sounds like a QAnon wet dream.

  23. 23
    Betty Cracker says:

    Trump on the timing of the Cohen hearing:

    “Having it in the middle of this very important summit is really a terrible thing. They could have made it two days later or next week, and it would have been even better. They would have had more time.”

    He left because the hearing rattled him, and he couldn’t stand being upstaged.

    Sure, he was unprepared, as always. He can’t negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag, so he was never going to make any progress toward denuclearization. But these things were all true last time, and that didn’t stop him from declaring the previous nothingburger summit a huge success.

  24. 24
    NotMax says:

    Tough to concentrate on negotiations what with those bone spurs acting up, don’tcha know.

    //

  25. 25
    FlipYrWhig says:

    Let me just point out that at any other point in American history a story that the president broke campaign finance laws to pay hush money to a p0rn actress and a nude model would itself be a volcanic 24/7 frenzy — but with Trump it gets covered as kind of a nonevent/nothingburgerberder _because of all the other crimes, scandals, and embarrassments he causes every goddamn day_. Has any media outlet had its news personalities put on a sad face to explain how to talk to your children about the dirty dirty things the president does? Because when Bill Clinton was president that was a regular occurrence. SMH

  26. 26
    Jeffro says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    He can’t negotiate his way out of a wet paper bag, so he was never going to make any progress toward denuclearization.

    ‘denuclearization’? Oh…you mean ‘de-nuking’! I love ‘de-nuking’! trumpov is the best at coming up with a plan for ‘de-nuking’. Who couldn’t or wouldn’t trust such a deal-making genius to come up with a plan for ‘de-nuking’ the Korean peninsula after decades of other, lesser lights have failed?

    Then again, maybe ‘de-nuking’ is a tell, as they say.

    And perhaps someday, we’ll have an actual grown-up working on ‘denuclearization’. But for now, full steam ahead on ‘de-nuking’, trumpov! Well, full steam ahead…next time…

  27. 27
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    Hey, I’m getting an idea for a TV cop show, Good Cop, Bad Cop, Stupid Cop. They catch the suspect every week, Good Cop and Bad Cop do their interrogation shtick and get a confession, then Stupid Cop comes in, suspect says “I didn’t do it, pinky swear” and Stupid Cop lets him go. “It’s not him, he told me he didn’t do it.” Whaddya think?

  28. 28
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Has any media outlet had its news personalities put on a sad face to explain how to talk to your children about the dirty dirty things the president does?

    No, but my wife taught an ethics course in January 2017 and had to face questions like “why should we behave ethically when he so obviously doesn’t?” It was a rough semester. She refuses to teach ethics again while he’s in office.

  29. 29
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Needz On the Take cop, who masquerades as Stoopid cop.

  30. 30
    Brachiator says:

    Aside from the general low quality of foreign policy reporting, it just galls me that US journalists cannot simply note that Trump is incompetent and instead keep looking for reasons to prop him up as our own Dear Leader. From CNN (Trump’s Hanoi Hail Mary failed to score)

    Perhaps Trump, who is unpredictable and unorthodox himself, may be about the only President who could forge a relationship with the mercurial Kim, and ultimately will make Americans safer.

    But that possibility cannot disguise the serious issues the Hanoi summit’s failure raises about Trump’s approach to North Korea and diplomacy in general.

    They also like to prattle about Kim’s propaganda victory, without any clue about his larger aims.

    The President has now twice climbed aboard Air Force One, flown for a day to reach Asia and given Kim the international validation he craves by appearing side-by-side as an equal with the President of the United States.

    On both occasions, Kim pocketed that win that he can mine for propaganda purposes back home, after offering nothing concrete in return. There has been no obvious progress towards denuclearization.

    I wonder whether there are still sufficient State Department and other agency staffers in place who could offer advice if Trump and Pompeo gave a damn.

  31. 31

    @Barbara:

    Trump loves him some authoritarian thugs.

    I think that’s the central pillar of this whole trip. Trump likes Kim. Trump thinks Kim is awesome because of the whole brutal dictator thing. Kim flatters Trump, so Trump thinks he has this awesome friend who gets parades and you can be arrested for criticizing and so on. He assumed they could make a deal he could wave around and get a Nobel Prize for, because they’re buddies. It didn’t occur to him at all that Kim has actual personal and national interests to protect.

    @dmsilev:

    Netanyahu is getting indicted.

    God, yes. While Israel will still be stuck with its ugly position where the tiny ultra-orthodox minority has outsize power over a mostly secular population, Bibi is one of those people who is determined to be the leading edge of evil. I hope he’s removed, and that Israel has a chance to at least edge towards being reasonable again.

  32. 32
    smintheus says:

    Talks failing before Trump can give away the farm is the best possible outcome. I’m very surprised that he had the sense to walk away from talks he never should have agreed to.

  33. 33
    Wapiti says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Short answer: people around him are going to prison. So unless you’re* the President, maybe ethics is important.

    (eta) * not you, but the student.

  34. 34

    In a press conference in Hanoi, Trump says he believes that Kim didn’t know about the torture of Otto Warmbier, a 22 year-old student who was arrested in NK and died here after being flown home in a coma. As usual, Trump comes off as a credulous fool, thinking that an autocrat like Kim wouldn’t be in control of every aspect of Warmbier’s custody.

    Is this really so incredible? I can easily imagine ICE, CBP, or practically any other law enforcement agency in the US arresting a foreign student and beating him into a coma without Trump knowing or caring about it. Is it that crazy that something similar could happen in another country, or is it assumed that the US is the only country in the world with out of control law enforcement agencies?

  35. 35
    Mike in NC says:

    So a pretty decent week so far: Cohen spills his guts on the Hill, Bibi gets indicted for bribery and corruption, and the “Very Tremendous Summit” (who the hell talks like that?) in Hanoi leaves everybody laughing. Friday could be even better if there are charges leveled against the Kushners.

  36. 36
    Brachiator says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Has any media outlet had its news personalities put on a sad face to explain how to talk to your children about the dirty dirty things the president does?

    No, but my wife taught an ethics course in January 2017 and had to face questions like “why should we behave ethically when he so obviously doesn’t?” It was a rough semester. She refuses to teach ethics again while he’s in office.

    I should think this is a great time to teach ethics. You have so many examples to discuss.

    For example, evangelicals seem to apply some extreme theocratic utilitarian standard. As long as Trump supposedly seeks to halt abortion, his personal behavior is irrelevant, or forgiven in advance by God.

    Republicans want lower taxes, deregulation and conservative judges, and so again disregard Trump’s personal behavior.

  37. 37
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Sad news. André Previn has died.

    R.I.P. 😢

  38. 38

    @Mike in NC:

    Friday could be even better if there are charges leveled against the Kushners.

    Don’t toy with me like that.

  39. 39
    Jay C says:

    So I guess they’re going to have delete the “Ended Korean War” bit off Trump’s Nobel Peace Prize nomination entry??

  40. 40
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Roger Moore: Is this really so incredible? I can easily imagine ICE, CBP, or practically any other law enforcement agency in the US arresting a foreign student and beating him into a coma without Trump knowing or caring about it.

    If the arrest of the foreign student made headlines around the world, then, yes, it would be utterly fucking incredible.

  41. 41
    eemom says:

    We’d normally spend days or weeks talking about Warmbier and stupid remarks like that from another President. For Trump, it’s just another Thursday.

    I hear ya, but I have to say that even for the bottomless pit of evil that is this “man”, those remarks hit a new depth.

    Being the mother of a college classmate of the young man and another child a few years younger, what happened to him broke my heart. I can’t even begin to imagine the agony of his poor parents.

    Granted, the dad didn’t cover himself in glory by sucking up to trump and pence the way he did, but that’s neither there nor here.

    Can you imagine how they feel seeing that filthy piece of subhuman shit drop to his disgusting knees and suck the dick of their son’s murderer?

    To say nothing of the millions and millions of innocent North Koreans who have been dying horrible deaths in “those prisons and the camps” for more than 60 years with no end in sight.

    Honestly, he is pure….what? Vermin? Primordial slime? Rotting flesh teeming with maggots? I really can’t think of any biological substance that deserves to be compared with him.

  42. 42
    Mike in NC says:

    @Brachiator: Word is that Foggy Bottom has a big FOR LEASE sign on the door. No functioning phones or electricity.

  43. 43
    A Ghost To Most says:

    After a discussion at work about the Kobayashi Maru scenario that devolved to ethics, I was informed in no uncertain terms that ethics was for suckers.

  44. 44
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Jay C: Well, with all his other accomplishments (Space Force!, that Great Wall he built, etc), actually making peace might have seemed like, um, overkill.

  45. 45
    West of the Rockies says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Donald Trump, you are the weakest link…

  46. 46
    catclub says:

    @Mike in NC:

    We ought to be grateful he didn’t sign papers denouncing American aggression in both North Korea and Vietnam. Winning!

    exactly.

    I have to give credit that he walked away rather than give away the store, which was most of the fear going into this summit.

    Yes, it was useless and gave KJU another moment of fame on the world stage, standing by the nearly elected President of the US.
    But, No Iraqis were killed in the process.

    The main problem with the talks was that Russia and China took the talks as reason to ignore (even more?) the sanctions.

  47. 47
    Jeffro says:

    In yet another example of Mitch McConnell’s radical pursuit of power at all costs, the Senate just confirmed the first-ever circuit judge who lacked the support of even one home-state senator (ie, had no ‘blue slip’). One more precedent gone. Not a problem as long as the new rules apply once the Dems regain power in the Senate, Turtle-man

  48. 48
    Brachiator says:

    @A Ghost To Most:

    After a discussion at work about the Kobayashi Maru scenario that devolved to ethics, I was informed in no uncertain terms that ethics was for suckers.

    The Star Trek novel, “Kobayashi Maru,” which may be out of print, was actually pretty good. As a test of leadership, the Kobayashi Maru assumes a certain degree of ethical behavior.

  49. 49
    rikyrah says:

    love the title of this post.

  50. 50
    MattF says:

    Trump doesn’t try to hide his admiration for KDU and North Korea: “He [KDU] speaks and his people sit up at attention. I want my people to do the same.” Later, Trump claimed he was joking. Hahaha.

    Fintan O’Toole has a good essay about Trump in the latest issue of NYRB, but I’m guessing it’s behind a paywall (I’m a subscriber, so I can’t tell).

  51. 51
    Haroldo says:

    @Brachiator:

    It’s not just US reporting. Here is some codswallop from the Canberra Times.

    (https://www.canberratimes.com.au/world/north-america/president-trump-for-the-nobel-peace-prize-20190228-p510tk.html)

    So you can sympathise with Mr Trump when he said, “They gave it to Obama. He didn’t even know what he got it for. He was there for about 15 seconds and he got the Nobel Prize. He said, ‘Oh, what did I get it for?’”

    Mr Trump added, “With me, I probably will never get it.”

    The 45th president may be wrong.

    Whatever the glitches and bumps in the summit in Vietnam, a huge change has already come over one of the most dangerous places on earth. A process has already started in Korea.

    There is now a real chance of peace on the Korean peninsula, the two halves of which have been in a state of highly armed, bellicosity for seven decades.

    Change has already come in Korea – a change of direction from “no-compromise; no way, no how” to “let’s work out how we can live together”.

    You can argue that President Trump has blundered into giving away what Obama refused to by tacitly accepting a nuclear-armed North Korea, at least in the short term.

    You may think that Mr Trump’s ego got the better of him, but the reality is the likely outcome is an opening of North Korea to outside influences.

    The writer does come up with an interesting ending to his tale, however:

    Both Mr Trump and Mr Kim may yet get the Nobel Prize for Peace.

    Might they one day be the first Nobel Peace Laureates to end up in prison – Mr Trump if the investigators close in and Mr Kim for well documented crimes against his own people.

  52. 52
    catclub says:

    @Haroldo:

    Here is some codswallop from the Canberra Times.

    agreed. that person is just confused.

  53. 53
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Brachiator: We took an ethics program that was part of my Computer Science degree. We discussed the KM scenario, and the ethics of changing code to win or steal. Seems so quaint now.

  54. 54
    germy says:

    Watching this from Vietnam is Trump's Vietnam. #CohenTestimony— Full Frontal (@FullFrontalSamB) February 27, 2019

  55. 55

    @catclub: I don’t know whether he deserves credit for leaving or not. I read that he was so upset by the Cohen hearing, he wanted to leave right then. So that may be what made him walk away.

  56. 56
    rikyrah says:

    Column: Two black women will face off in Chicago’s mayoral runoff, but mostly white voters put them there

    By Dahleen Glanton
    Chicago Tribune

    Something historic happened in Chicago on Tuesday. By now, most people have heard that two African-American women emerged from a crowded field of mayoral candidates to land coveted runoff positions.

    That means Chicago will elect its first African-American female mayor on April 2. Regardless of who wins, both women will have accomplished a remarkable feat.

    As an African-American woman, I am particularly proud that our city will finally have a black woman at its helm. Of the 14 candidates in the race, Lori Lightfoot, a former federal prosecutor, and Toni Preckwinkle, the longtime president of the Cook County Board of Commissioners, were the cream of the crop.

    Both women are smart, politically astute and undeniably competent. I voted for one of them but at this point, it doesn’t matter which. Either would make an excellent mayor.

    So on Wednesday, each will begin renewed campaigns to convince voters that she is the best person for the job.

    There is no doubt that both candidates will garner the support of a large number of white voters. Their greatest challenge, however, could be with African-Americans.

    What makes this mayoral race so unique is that neither of the black women heading to the runoff was the first choice of voters in wards where the majority of the city’s African-Americans live.

    Preckwinkle won only four of the city’s predominantly black wards, according to unofficial results. Though she emerged as the front-runner, Lightfoot didn’t win any.

    Voters on the South and West sides overwhelmingly supported Willie Wilson, a black self-made millionaire who never had a real chance of winning citywide support. But Wilson won 14 predominantly African-American wards.

    Here’s the bottom line: In a race that drew only 34 percent of the registered voters to the polls, white people in Chicago decided that it was time to have an African-American female mayor. That has never happened in our city.

  57. 57
    Fair Economist says:

    Looking at the O’Rourke-Cornyn polling, I may have to withdraw my claim he’s more likely to win the Presidency. He’s down 2 in one poll and tied in another. That’s much better than I’d have expected.

  58. 58
    Betty Cracker says:

    And now the North Koreans are disputing Trump’s account of the summit-ending impasse. Hey, those summits are very rough. If North Korea says it went down that way, I take them at their word.

  59. 59
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @dmsilev: Couldn’t happen to a nicer guy.

  60. 60
    chopper says:

    @Mike in NC:

    “Very Tremendous Summit” (who the hell talks like that?)

    a guy with a hundred-word vocabulary.

  61. 61
    geg6 says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Oh, very sad. When he was conductor for the Pittsburgh Symphony Orchestra, I went to see them many times. Sadly, I haven’t been back since. Have to make it a point to do that some day soon.

  62. 62
    AliceBlue says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I was reading that earlier. I didn’t realize that he was born in Berlin and had to flee the Nazis with his family in 1938.

  63. 63
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @germy: The buttons are straining on Mr. Creosote’s shirt.

  64. 64
    jonas says:

    @debit:

    “Those prisons are rough…He tells me that he didn’t know about it and I will take him at his word.”

    Just like those embassies in Istanbul. Never know when you’re going to be attacked and dismembered when you walk into one of those…

  65. 65
    WaterGirl says:

    @Fair Economist: I am very glad Beto isn’t running for senate. If he loses 2 senate runs in a row, he would be toast. I think this is his best move. I don’t know if he will get the nomination, but I believe he will be a very good candidate for President and his presence will elevate the debate.

  66. 66
    Luciamia says:

    Shit, when Trump does something that gets even Rick Santorum upset…

  67. 67
    Haroldo says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    And now the North Koreans are disputing Trump’s account of the summit-ending impasse. Hey, those summits are very rough. If North Korea says it went down that way, I take them at their word.

    (For the life of me I don’t know how to insert emojis, but if I did you’d see a string of hearts!)

  68. 68
    germy says:

    @WaterGirl: He might be a VP candidate for someone like Warren, to reassure those who worry about age.

  69. 69

    @catclub:

    I have to give credit that he walked away rather than give away the store, which was most of the fear going into this summit.

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I read that he was so upset by the Cohen hearing, he wanted to leave right then. So that may be what made him walk away.

    I read specific reporting that he disagreed that the closing of one nuclear plant was equal to lifting all sanctions. So, while his bad mood is surely involved, he does deserve the pathetically low level of credit that rates.

  70. 70
    germy says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Couldn’t the whole event be accomplished with Skype? He hates traveling; I wonder why he decided on the trip.

  71. 71
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Mike in NC: “Very Tremendous Summit” (who the hell talks like that?)

    See also: “reasonably attractive news” about the India-Pakistan crisis.

  72. 72
    catclub says:

    One lesson Trump should draw from this cock-up is that previous presidents had a reason for putting off summits until their diplomats lined up all (or almost all) the pins ahead of time. If Kim wasn’t going to budge an inch until all sanctions were lifted, there never should have been a summit.

    from Slate – Fred Kaplan

  73. 73
    Brachiator says:

    @Haroldo:

    Might they one day be the first Nobel Peace Laureates to end up in prison – Mr Trump if the investigators close in and Mr Kim for well documented crimes against his own people.

    Wow. You would think that committing crimes, including crimes against your own people, would be disqualifying, but to this idiot the Nobel Peace Prize is like a trophy.

  74. 74
    SRW1 says:

    Wasn’t it sort of a rule that the US president would only go to such negotiations and invest the prestige of his office once the business of establishing essential basics was completed by his underlings? The post-meeting PR exchanges appear to suggest the prep for this tete-a-tete consisted mainly in the exchange of bauchpinseling* letters.

    *bauchpinseln: virtually belly rubbing someone until his/her ego squeals in delight (literally: tickling someones belly with a fine brush)

  75. 75
    catclub says:

    @jonas:

    Just like those embassies in Istanbul.

    I thought Embassies are in the capital, which I think is Ankara, and that was a consulate that Khashoggi walked into.

  76. 76
    Haroldo says:

    @Brachiator:

    Yep. And the author of this nonsense was at one time the BBC reporter for North Korea. The mind boggles…..

  77. 77
    Brachiator says:

    @rikyrah:

    Here’s the bottom line: In a race that drew only 34 percent of the registered voters to the polls, white people in Chicago decided that it was time to have an African-American female mayor. That has never happened in our city.

    It’s a shame that the voter turnout was so low, but congratulations to both candidates.

  78. 78
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    Consider the way Trump runs his administration (lack of attention to detail, impulsive) I can believe Trump really thinks Kim didn’t know about the torture. And because Trump is a lazy fool is thankfully why he will never be dictator.

    As Stalin said “Oppression isn’t easy”

  79. 79
    germy says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I think trump was lying when he said he asked Kim about the torture. I think he was afraid to bring it up. When I watch the clip from the press conference, it just looks to me like he goes into Used Car Salesman mode when he says “Oh yes, I asked about it, and he assures me…” etc.

    The eyes go dead. It’s like a shark feeding.

  80. 80

    @germy:

    I wonder why he decided on the trip.

    1) Attention.
    2) A grand show is more likely to get him a Nobel Prize in his head.
    3) He gets to hang out with Kim. I believe strongly in my ‘Trump thinks brutal dictators are the cool kids club’ theory.

  81. 81
    VeniceRiley says:

    @Roger Moore: Ambassador Richardson answered that on TV this morning. He had been seeking Warmbeir’s release for the better part of a year; and no. There is no way Kim would not know and control every single detail of such a high profile American prisoner.

  82. 82
    Brachiator says:

    @germy:

    Couldn’t the whole event be accomplished with Skype?

    Trump don’t know how to use Skype.

    Also, probably no Skype in North Korea.

    Also, Trump loves to snuggle up to autocrats and dictators. Can’t get that with Face Time.

  83. 83
    germy says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I believe strongly in my ‘Trump thinks brutal dictators are the cool kids club’ theory.

    Well, he’s certainly nicer to them than to our European allies.

    And who was the unfortunate chap he shoved to one side? The guy from Montenegro?

  84. 84
    germy says:

    @Brachiator:

    Also, probably no Skype in North Korea.

    I hadn’t thought of that. I believe they’re still using Windows95.

  85. 85
    Raoul says:

    are: Warmbier, Trump is of course a fool. But he also follows a pattern of motivated reasoning (believing Saudis about Kashoggi, Putin’s denials about elex interference).
    Trump needs his base (and the entire captured D.C. GOP) to believe his 100s of flimsy, absurd denials. So he extends the same ‘courtesy’ to global autocrats.

  86. 86
    Brachiator says:

    In other news, Pakistan’s leaders are trying to do the right thing.

    Pakistan will release a captured Indian pilot as a “peace gesture” on Friday, Prime Minister Imran Khan has said.

    Mr Khan revealed the decision in parliament, saying that Pakistan was focused on de-escalation. India’s military welcomed the Pakistani move.

    Pakistan shot down the pilot’s jet on Wednesday, as tensions rose with India over the disputed region of Kashmir.

    The capture of Abhinandan Varthaman was a major setback for India. Both sides are under pressure to calm tensions.

  87. 87
  88. 88
    hells littlest angel says:

    @germy: I believe they’re still using Windows95.

    That would be hard on NK graphics processors. Super high-end systems are running Windows 3.1.

  89. 89
    WaterGirl says:

    Raise your hand if you think Adam Schiff is very careful with the words he chooses. (raises hand)

    Now read this from Adam Schiff’s twitter feed today, and see if you notice anything:

    Adam Schiff
    Verified account
    @RepAdamSchiff

    Walking away from the summit was better than making a bad deal. It’s also the result of a poorly planned strategy.

    But accepting Kim’s denial of involvement in Warmbier’s death? Detestable, and harkens back to Trump’s duplicitous acceptances of denials from other dictators.

    hint: … denials from other dictators. I don’t think that choice of words is an accident. anyone else have an opinion?

  90. 90
    Raoul says:

    @smintheus: We don’t know if it was Kim who bailed. I kinda think Trump is (whoa, nellie) lying that he was the one to quit.

  91. 91
    Raoul says:

    @Jay C: How embarrassing for P.M. Abe. Hope he was drafting the application in pencil!

  92. 92
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Raoul: Could be. But I can imagine Trump noticing a group of North Koreans laughing together, naturally assuming they were laughing at him (because of either Michael Cohen’s testimony or the Depends-bulge in Trump’s pants), and walking off in a huff.

  93. 93
    Keith P. says:

    @germy: they have a custom Linux distro called Red Star.

  94. 94
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Keith P.: It’s not Linux it’s Kimux! The Dear Leader himself wrote the kernel at the age of six.

  95. 95
    tobie says:

    @WaterGirl: I think I’m forming something of a crush on Schiff. I feel cheated that the Intelligence Committee hearings are all behind closed doors. I would like to see him questioning witnesses.

    ETA: My immediate hunches are MBS, Putin, and Erdogan. Maybe also Duterte.

  96. 96
    trollhattan says:

    @WaterGirl:
    For me the most obvious example would be the Saudis (bone saws for five-hundred, Alex) plus his buddy Vlad (nerve agent agents, anybody?).

  97. 97
    PIGL says:

    @FlipYrWhig:
    “Let me just point out that at any other point in American history” … when a Democrat was President …

    FIFY.

  98. 98
    pat says:

    @khead:

    “Just imagine if Democrats were doing any of this shit. Any of it.”

    Well there you are. Who could imagine ANY democrat doing ANY of this?

    There is only one party that has a monopoly on criminality and corruption. It ain’t the Democrats.

  99. 99
    Martin says:

    I think Cohen missed an opportunity yesterday, among the Republican’s constant harping on his history of lying to point out that he lied far less than his former boss who got elected president, so you can’t exactly fault him for employing the tactics that get results these days.

  100. 100
    R-Jud says:

    @tobie:

    I think I’m forming something of a crush on Schiff.

    I call him Congressbae. No shame.

  101. 101
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @germy: Yes, that can believe. Think of what what’s the laziest possible thing to any given situation and that’s most likely what Trump did. Asking Kim penetrating question, that’s hard work, so no. Lying about asking Kim questions, that’s easy so yes.

  102. 102
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    1) Attention.
    2) A grand show is more likely to get him a Nobel Prize in his head.
    3) He gets to hang out with Kim.

    4. Vietnamese hookers look underage
    5. He wanted to check out the golfing opportunities in Hanoi.

  103. 103
    Brickley Paiste says:

    @trollhattan: They’re not fucked at all.

    They are going to enjoy bankruptcy protection for a few years, pay pennies on the dollar to settle claims, no employee will be held accountable or sent to jail.

    Stock prices tanked but they have already tripled off their low.

    They’ve declared bankruptcy before, remember.

    I’m not a fan of the death penalty for people, but it seems like a good idea for corporations.

    I had friends who lost everything in the fire, had inadequate insurance, and are probably never going to see a dime from PG&E.

  104. 104
    WaterGirl says:

    @tobie: @trollhattan: I agree with your nominations for dictators. My respect and gratitude for Adam Schiff grow by the day.

    What I took particular note of, though, were the words “other dictators”, with the implication being that Trump himself is a dictator.

    If I’m accepting denials from dictators, I am not a dictator.
    If I’m accepting denials from other dictators, I think that implies that I am a dictator.

    Anyone else see it that way?

  105. 105
    Raoul says:

    Trump’s fail in one tweet.

    @JVLast
    Yeah, so Trump walking out on the NORKs wasn’t “strength.” It was leaving the poker table with a handful of chips left after getting pounded all night long by the sharks. Better than going bust? Sure. But you’re still the whale.

  106. 106
    catclub says:

    @hells littlest angel:

    That would be hard on NK graphics processors. Super high-end systems are running Windows 3.1.

    either KJU or his predecessor was a huge movie fan, and I bet at least ONE household in NKorea can stream internet movies extremely well.

  107. 107
    trnc says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    She refuses to teach ethics again while he’s in office.

    Isn’t that how people like him ultimately win?

    As far as how rough a class is in a situation like that, take this comment with a grain of salt since I’m probably missing a lot of context, but a lot of teachers run into that kind of thing. Why do I have to learn how to spell when I have spell check, why do I have to learn math when I have a calculator on my phone, etc. The answer is that the concepts are important, regardless of what someone else is doing, and the reason DT has no ethics is because he was never taught them. Either learn the material or drop the class and go run for prez. Good luck.

  108. 108
    hells littlest angel says:

    @catclub: Or has Pirate Bay bookmarked.

  109. 109
    The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion says:

    @Jeffro: Um, actually, it will still be a problem. The court that said asshole has been appointed to has an outsize impact on indigenous nations, and the fucker is rabidly anti-native, with a track record miles long of attempts to destroy tribal sovereignty. Granted, it won’t trouble white folks much, but indigenous people are going to pay for that long-knife’s promotion for a generation or more.

  110. 110
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Mike in NC: Because Fat Bastard is as racist as they are and does their bidding. I assume they’ll go down with the ship when Trump finally gets dragged out of the White House.

  111. 111
    Jeffro says:

    @The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: um – how was this in response to what I said about McConnell? Or did you just click on my comment by mistake?

  112. 112
    Turner Hedenkoff says:

    The last time an American bombed this badly in Hanoi, there were B-52s overhead. #toosoon

  113. 113
    mrmoshpotato says:

    @Haroldo: JFC. The Canberra Times isn’t wasting any time swalloping all the cod.

  114. 114
    Princess says:

    @WaterGirl: Nope.
    Other dictators means dictators in addition to Kim.

    Besides Trump is not a dictator. He has done everything he has done in governance legally with the conivance of a GOP House and Senate. It would be foolish for Schiff to speak in such a way as to let them off the hook and Schiff is not foolish.

  115. 115
    WaterGirl says:

    @Princess:

    Other dictators means dictators in addition to Kim.

    Thanks. Now that you pointed it out, I can see the alternate reading and I think you are right about the wording.

  116. 116
    Dan B says:

    @chopper: A Clinton 1 admin foreign policy expert told Amanpour that Kim wants the US military to stay in S Korea. Simple reasons: Russia, China. The US provides a check against meddling. They both would like to expand their influence on the peninsula. Without the US military there is less raoud response. Neither country has a reason to continue to support Kim if they can spread their influence without a small time dictator. Kim m8ght stay in power but would have to bow to China or Russia.

  117. 117
    hells littlest angel says:

    @Dan B: Clinton 1

    I thought I was an optimist.

  118. 118
    kvmj says:

    It appears that after receiving his sentence, Otto tried to kill himself. He wasn’t tortured.
    “Two North Korean doctors explained that Otto had arrived at the hospital this way more than a year before and showed as proof thick handwritten charts and several brain scans that revealed Otto had suffered extensive brain damage. Flueckiger spent about an hour examining Otto, but the truth had been evident at first sight: The Otto of old was already gone. Though he had obviously improved since coming into the hospital (he had a tracheotomy scar where machines had once breathed for him), he was in a state of unresponsive wakefulness, meaning he still possessed basic reflexes but no longer showed signs of awareness.”
    https://www.gq.com/story/otto-warmbier-north-korea-american-hostage-true-story

  119. 119
    Dan B says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I vividly recall Bill Moyers’ interview of a historian. He asked if there were differences between this generation and others (America 90’s). Historian says, “Yes. One word. Posterity. The total absence of it from the national conversation. The founders included it in every paragraph and every document.”

    Your wife’s ethics students are missing another. They’ve substituted personal / individual behavior for the lens to view “ethics”. There is at least one word missing from this generation.

    What’s mind boggling is the failure to connect ethics to responssibility. It feels as though the connection between civilization and well being has been submerged. Anything but money and power is viewed as weakness, if not total delusion.

  120. 120
    Gravenstone says:

    @Betty Cracker: A reminder that the only reason Cohen’s testimony happened yesterday is because Dotard shot his mouth off and decided to threaten Cohen on Twitter (witness tampering – Hello!). So Cohen asked for a delay. otherwise he would have testified nearly three weeks ago (2/7)

  121. 121
    takebakawashi says:

    @Jeffro: I imagine the Reverend was keying off of “One more precedent gone. Not a problem as long as…” when writing, “Um, actually, it will still be a problem.”

  122. 122
    hueyplong says:

    I have no idea what happened to Otto, but nothing that follows “he wasn’t tortured” in kvmj’s post supports suicide. The article itself merely posits suicide as “a theory” based solely on the timing of an injury (“right after” sentencing). Contrary to kvmj’s statement, the story seems to assume that if Otto attempted suicide, it was as a result of being tortured psychologically, something kvmj might have mentioned instead of “He wasn’t tortured.”.

    The categorical nature of kvmj’s conclusion doesn’t appear to be warranted.

    If the guy had attempted suicide, wouldn’t the North Koreans have been motivated to say so in their official statement of events?

    [I did not read the whole story. Just word-searched “suicide” and read those parts.]

  123. 123
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @smintheus: The whole meetup was a farce. What evidence do we have that Trump has the skills to negotiate a nuclear deal with Kim or any other despot? Trump is not that bright and he doesn’t do any research or listen to experts. Thank goodness he walked away this time.

  124. 124
    StringOnAStick says:

    I wonder how today’s closed door hearing with Cohen is going? It might be even hotter in there than it was yesterday.

    I had to work yesterday so I only got to see bits and pieces of the Cohen testimony, but he seemed well prepared. The guy’s a schnook but he’s trying to tell the truth now it seems, unless he’s running a game that I don’t think the tRumpies are capable of the planning needed to build Cohen into the biggest “kerning” scandal ever.

    I did 3 days as an expert witness once in water court (long ago, prior career); it was one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. One thing I know for sure is that Cohen is completely exhausted by now and growing more so. It was wise to do one day closed door, the next open, and the last closed. The first day let him get the feel of it, the next day was for citizens and the media to hop on, and today is when he’s tired and most likely to screw up but it won’t be in front of cameras.

  125. 125
    Dan B says:

    @A Ghost To Most: Thanks for a story that shines a bright light on an issue that is not going away with Trump or Pence. When ethics is for suckers the cork is loose in the volcano.

    Ethics is for strong societies. Uncontrolled individualism is for chaos. It lets loose the flames that burn down civilization and open the floodgates of terror that feed tyrants.

    Not to be hyperbolic (ha!) but… it doesn’t seem to take much logic to see how these choices turn out.

  126. 126
    Gravenstone says:

    @WaterGirl: Well, Putin didn’t fuck with our elections (he says). MBS didn’t order Khashoggi killed (he says). Duterte never ordered all those reporters and protesters murdered (he says). Hardly the first time Trump has publicly sided with various murderous despots.

  127. 127
    PPCLI says:

    @debit: And I suppose that Kim was also 100% unaware that an American citizen had been thrown into one of these prisons, that were so “rough” that prisoners routinely die in custody? For taking a fucking poster he wasn’t supposed to take?

  128. 128
    Steeplejack says:

    @MattF:

    Yeah, it’s paywalled. You can see down to the paragraph that begins, “How are we to understand this extraordinary episode?,” but that’s it.

  129. 129
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Dan B:

    Anything but money and power is viewed as weakness, if not total delusion.

    This is why I have such absolute disgust for the state of contemporary Christianity. Because Jesus could not have been clearer about who was a Christian and who was not. “A man cannot serve two masters or else he will love one and hate the other. You cannot serve both God and Mammon.” It is so obvious to me that the naked worship of Mammon has penetrated every aspect of this nation, to the point that people who claim to be Christian worship the rich while actively wanting to grind the poor beneath their heel.

  130. 130
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @trollhattan:

    No, the shareholders have been low on PG&Es list for a while. This is all about the board and the top heavy management feeding At the trough. Employee “bonuses were cancelled, sure, but LTIP, which is for leadership, continues.

    They can’t even keep Sharepoint running. And yes, for those that remember my earlier pays about murdercorp, my mystical bag of fucks is out.

  131. 131
    Hoodie says:

    Trump went over there in desperation mode, i.e., hoping against hope that he could create the appearance of some kind of bullshit deal that might take attention away from the torrent of bad news. As usual, he didn’t prepare, and when it became clear Kim would not give him even a figleaf, he bugged out to avoid looking like an even bigger loser. Without any traction for a deal “story,” the Cohen testimony was too riveting and Trump was stuck in the wrong fucking time zone to try to recapture the news cycle. You have to constantly remind yourself that Trump has no other goal than his own immediate survival and aggrandizement, which means he also has no strategy or scruples. He’s a cockroach raiding the pantry and randomly fleeing the light, and may be equally hard to get rid of.

  132. 132
    Immanentize says:

    @Dan B:

    Ethics is for strong societies. Uncontrolled individualism is for chaos.

    I’m not joking, but this is basically the thesis of my current scholarship exploring why law professors (unrestrained individuality) are so bad at producing ethical lawyers (which requires restraint and working toward a common good)

  133. 133
    chopper says:

    @kvmj:

    odd, since your story states emphatically that he was tortured; it says that at best he was “only” mentally/psychologically tortured.

  134. 134
    Steeplejack says:

    @Haroldo:

    If you’re using Windows, you can press [Windows Button] + [period] to get to the emojis. Dunno about Macs.

  135. 135
    Dan B says:

    @Brachiator: Lori Lightfoot is lesbian, married to a white woman. Although she didn’t win any black majority precincts it still boggles my mind. In 1971 (long ago – dates are fuzzy) the Chicago Vice Squad parked 200 paddy wagons a couple blocks from a big dance. It was the time when Fred Hampton was shot in his bed. Police violence against blacks was constant. To have a black lesbian as a viable candidate for Mayor of Chicago is…… no words.

    And that’s from me in a city that’s on its second LGBT mayor. (Neither redefined “politician” but there’s always hope.)

  136. 136
    Skepticat says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    She refuses to teach ethics again while he’s in office.

    But this is precisely when and why we need it most.

  137. 137
    Dan B says:

    @hells littlest angel: Just trying to alter the Clinton timeline.

    Alternate: President Chelsea

  138. 138
    PST says:

    @Brachiator:

    It’s a shame that the [Chicago mayoral] voter turnout was so low, but congratulations to both candidates.

    It wasn’t crazy low by local standards for a March election with nothing to speak of but mayor and alderman on the ballot. It wasn’t a record. It was an interesting election with 14 candidates, and I suspect some people just decided to wait until the run-off clarified the picture. The wild thing to me is that the candidates weren’t a bunch of nobodies. I would say that at least seven were better known than Lightfoot, who came out on top. There was Bill Daley (former cabinet member and much more), Toni Preckwinkle (president of the county board), Gery Chico (former school and city college board chairman and second to Emanuel when he first won), Susana Mendoza (state comptroller and former city clerk), Garry McCarthy (former police superintendent), Paul Vallas (CEO of the schools), and Willie Wilson (rich black businessman and preacher endorsed by the county republicans, came in fourth). The first four are all people who are really wired into the city political establishment, but by the same token vulnerable to corruption suspicions. Lightfoot has an impressive (and clean) record of public service in non-elected jobs, but I didn’t know who she was before she started running commercials on MSNBC. I think she won the MSNBC-watching public big time. For me, the election became too complicated to try to vote strategically (who do I dislike just a little who might need my vote to knock someone I despise out of the run-off). So I just decided to vote for the candidate I liked best, even though she didn’t have a chance. I must not have been the only one to think that way, because she was in a three-way tie for first in the final polling before the election.

  139. 139

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I taught an ethic course back when we were debating whether to invade Iraq. When we went over the Just War Theory I was the only person standing up and saying there wasn’t enough proof that Iraq was involved in 9/11 and that they had no WMD. That our invasion was wrong. I never taught Ethics again after that either because they were incapable of truly understanding how Ethics are supposed to work. I wonder, to this day, if any of those students remember me and remember me saying that the Bush Administration was lying to us. What I wouldn’t give for an ‘I told you so’ moment.

  140. 140
    Dan B says:

    @Citizen Alan: Yep regarding mammon worship. I worked with many progressive religious leaders for several years. Christ wouldn’t last long at CATO or CPAC, or most any billionaire supported think tank or charity. Even Gates Foundation got infiltrated for at least several years.

    Fastest way for him to be strung up again would be a T rally, or, maybe Westboro Baptist, or, Duterte residence, sooo many options!

  141. 141
    kvmj says:

    @hueyplong: He had an MRI as soon as he was returned. Had he been tortured. there would have been signs of trauma. There were none. Doctors determined that his brain was starved of oxygen for some period of time. N. Korea is horrible to its own people. But, Otto was a pawn to them. Other Americans have endured long interrogations, but none have been beaten.

  142. 142
    smedley the uncertain says:

    @catclub: Exactly!! Your staff lays the ground work and then the leaders walk in to address an already agreed to plan and look like heroes.KJU position sanctions should have been known going in. If DJT knowingly walked into that he’s got greater regard for himself than than the rest of the world. Oh, wait….

  143. 143
    Dan B says:

    @Immanentize: Yes! I applaud your thesis topic. Chaos is valuable for shaking up moribund institutions but the worship of disruption is likely the core problem with tech and soon AI, and BioTech (according to Yuval Noah Harari). Shaking babies and old folks has consequences.

    Also the fact that so many of our institutions depend upon shared stories and shared myths is reason for paying attention. That money in your account is worth something because we as a community choose to value it. The law has held societies together but has never been the same as justice. (Spoken as someone who has seen the law become more just but only by comparison with some terrible times for me and my friends.)

  144. 144
    kvmj says:

    @chopper: My bad. I should have said, “not physically tortured”. Otto hurt Otto.

  145. 145
    japa21 says:

    @PST: Missed being a record by 1%

  146. 146
    Bill Arnold says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Anyone else see it that way?

    Yes, of course. Burying a sting (or a compliment etc) in a non-straightforward alt parsing is – nice to see. Might atart watching him to see if i’s a habit.

  147. 147
    Bill Arnold says:

    @WaterGirl:
    I read it as ambiguous, deniably so. As you both say the obvious parsing is obvious.

  148. 148
    tobie says:

    @kvmj: That is not what the article you link to says. It says it’s possible that Warmbier attempted suicide because he was psychologically tortured but there is no proof of this. It’s more likely that he sustained fatal injuries through physical torture; and then there’s the possibility that he had a violent allergic reaction in prison and did not receive timely medical treatment, which would also be torture. You seem keen on exonerating the North Koreans for this man’s death. Wonder why.

  149. 149
    Ken says:

    @tobie:

    You seem keen on exonerating the North Koreans for this man’s death. Wonder why.

    I don’t remember seeing kvmj here before, but I have a terrible memory for nyms. It probably doesn’t stand for “Korean Voice of Ministry of Justice”, if only because that would be too obvious.

  150. 150
    tobie says:

    @Ken: Yeah, the “Otto hurt Otto” line was a sure sign of a troll. We’re seeing a lot more of them these days now that the 2020 election campaign is on. I fear it’s only going to get worse as the primaries draw closer.

  151. 151
    kvmj says:

    @tobie: You could not have read the entire article. I do not know N. Korea. I’ve read horror stories about life in their labor camps. But, those Americans who have been detained have been well fed and detained in a comfortable facility. Not one of them claims to have been beaten. These detainees are seen as bargaining chips, nothing more. Trump is the one who led people to believe that Otto had been physically abused. I thought everybody here would be interested in facts as opposed to anything that came out of Trump’s ugly little mouth. Medical evidence indicates that Otto hurt Otto.

    The letters kvmj are simply my initials. I read BalloonJuice every day, but only posted here once before. I sent Jayce $75 twice. So, that’s the extent of my involvement here.

  152. 152
    tobie says:

    My apologies then. But your comments do seem like an effort to exonerate North Korea and I am extremely uncomfortable with the formulation “Otto hurt Otto.” If your point is that the Trump administration sought to derive maximum benefit from Otto Warmbier’s death by playing up his torture, you should say so directly. If you think his parents’ lied about his physical injuries (disfigured limbs, disfigured teeth), you should probably also say so. And if you don’t believe that there is such a thing as psychological torture, you should also say so. It’s harrowing to listen to Otto Warmbier begging for mercy at his trial. There is no way to sugarcoat this.

  153. 153
    Haroldo says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Thank you.

    🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉

  154. 154
    kvmj says:

    The coroner who examined Otto said that there were no signs of trauma other than a minor cut on one foot and a tracheotomy scar. His teeth were in good shape. There were no disfigured limbs. He didn’t even have any bedsores. She contradicted his parents completely. I think that the prospect of a 15 year sentence facing this young man likely led him to hang himself. And, over what? Even if he did take the poster down, 15 years is incredibly unjust. I think the guards found him right before his heart stopped.

    Psychological torture is certainly torture. In fact three American prisoners killed themselves shortly after their release.

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