Thursday Morning Open Thread: Warmed-Over Meme

(Jack Ohman via

He seemed so new and novel back in 2016, but sensibilities change! Moira Donegan, in the Guardian, “Why vote for Sanders when you can have Elizabeth Warren instead?”:

In the 2016 primary, Democratic voters were presented with a choice: Sanders, who represented the potential of redistributive policy, and Clinton, who represented the possibility of shattering, as she put it, the last, highest glass ceiling. She dismissed his ideas as impractical; his supporters attacked her with a virulent misogyny that belied their nominal commitments to equality. For leftist women, to express enthusiasm for Sanders’ policy proposals was seen as condoning the sexist attacks on Clinton. To defend Clinton from sexism meant that we would be accused of condoning the worst choices of her history. This choice, between Sanders and Clinton, redistribution and representation, has been the central conflict of American progressive politics in the years since. You can have either redistribution or representation, the thinking goes, but not both.

Sanders’ announcement, and the resurgence of the party divisions that it has already ushered in, is especially maddening to those of us who would rather avoid a repeat of this bruising 2016 primary fight, as there is already a candidate with a long record of commitment to redistributive policies and a proven ability to combat inequality: Senator Elizabeth Warren, of Massachusetts.

Like Sanders, Warren has a long career of railing against the injustice of a country where the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer. Unlike him, she has a proven track record outside of the Senate, helping to establish the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau during the Obama administration and writing the book – actually, writing several books – on how to help working families by making finance and debt laws more fair.

But unlike Sanders, Warren does not have the baggage of the 2016 primary, which will weigh Sanders down and alienate large swaths of the Democratic base. She is a woman, an essential identity trait in a party that is increasingly dominated by people of color and accounts for the votes of half of all white women, who rightly want to see themselves better represented in a party whose leaders have been much older, whiter and more male than actual voters. And she does not ask voters to make the choice that was posed to them in the 2016 primary, between fiercely attacking economic inequality and tackling the gender and racial injustices that perpetuate and exacerbate it. Her statements and policy proposals, more detailed than those of the other early frontrunners, and show that she is committed to doing both.

Why would Democratic voters choose Sanders when Warren is running? The two are not ideologically identical, but the differences between their major policy stances, on regulation of financial services and the need to extend the welfare state, are relatively minor, especially compared to the rest of the field. Warren calls herself a capitalist, the Sanders partisans point out, while Sanders is unafraid of the label “socialist”. That’s one thing. But this point has the quality of a post-hoc rationalization. It is cited by those seeking a politically acceptable reason to vote for a man and not for a woman – those who would vote for this man, and perhaps not any woman, no matter what. The fact is that Warren is to the left of Sanders on some issues, notably gun control. If the primary contest becomes a race to the left, it is not entirely clear that Sanders would win…

As always, I’m agnostic about Warren ending up as the Democratic nominee; if she doesn’t, the winner will almost certainly be another very strong candidate (I could most certainly vote for President Harris, right now). And, selfishly, in that case Warren will still be my Senator, hopefully for many years to come. But Sanders has disqualified himself irretrievably in my eyes, and in those of many other staunch Democratic voters as well.

195 replies
  1. 1
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  2. 2
    OzarkHillbilly says:


  3. 3
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  4. 4
    JPL says:

    Good morning

  5. 5
    Baud says:

    @JPL: Good morning.

  6. 6
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    21,750 people mobbed Obama last nite in North Carolina

    (Video #1)

    (Video #2)

    Beatlemania — People RUNNING trying to find Obama at UNC

    (Video #1)

  7. 7
    JPL says:

    I’m already tired of hearing about Bernie. Bernie, Bernie, Bernie just go away.

  8. 8
    Baud says:

    Counterpoint: It’s Sanders’ turn.

  9. 9
    mrmoshpotato says:

    Good comic. Would’ve been better with also asking Bernie why he hasn’t fucked off to the forest and taken up knitting.

  10. 10
    JPL says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: That made me a little teary. I miss him.

  11. 11
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    We will not live to see another president with this much #swag (photo)

  12. 12

    @OzarkHillbilly: Blech right back at ya.

    @Baud: Good morning.

  13. 13

    Monday night, as I’ve mention, I by chance caught Senator Warren giving a few remarks and answering a few questions before her speech in town. I thought as I was leaving it was the first time I’d seen a candidate for President. Later Monday night, or Tuesday morning, I realized that I had seen another candidate years earlier. He was also the senior Senator from the Commonwealth, Teddy in 1980.

  14. 14
  15. 15
    opiejeanne says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  16. 16
    Plato says:

    In the first debate, every dem contender should ask bs, why are you even here? You’re not even a dem party member. And where are your tax returns?

  17. 17
    Baud says:


    This is the one reason I want Biden to run. He would not be shy about that.

  18. 18
    Brachiator says:


    In the first debate, every dem contender should ask bs, why are you even here? You’re not even a dem party member. And where are your tax returns?

    Yep. Yep. And Yep.

  19. 19
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    It’s Bernie’s world. The Democratic party is just living in it
    Kate Aronoff

    Bernie Sanders’s 2016 candidacy rewrote the rules by which the Democratic party operates. If Democrats win in 2020, it will be largely thanks to him

    No, I didn’t read it, and I am certainly not recommending anyone here read it. I just thought you all might appreciate the depth of delusion needed to make such an hubristic statement.

  20. 20
    geg6 says:

    Fuck Bernie Sanders. Fuck him, fuck him, fuck him. He is the enemy, almost as much as the GOP.

  21. 21
    Betty Cracker says:

    In her pursuit of a valid point (that some men seem to be looking for an excuse not to vote for a woman), Donegan makes too little of the difference between the “redistributive” frameworks favored by Warren and Sanders, IMO. The differences are important, not only in their own right due to the policy implications but because of how they’ll land with certain blocs of voters. I am very much looking forward to hearing Warren explain the difference in their approaches to addressing wealth inequality.

  22. 22
    Brachiator says:

    This choice, between Sanders and Clinton, redistribution and representation, has been the central conflict of American progressive politics in the years since. You can have either redistribution or representation, the thinking goes, but not both.

    I don’t think this is true at all. And the Guardian fundamentally misunderstands America.

    Most Americans don’t give a shit about redistribution. They care about fairness and the ability of the average worker to get a break and to be able to earn enough for his or her family.

    In 2008 and 2012, Obama was the superior candidate. In 2016, Clinton was the superior candidate. Far superior. Representation was icing on the cake, not her reason for being in the race. And also, as has been the case for years, a slim majority of white women nationally seem not to care about representation and vote for a Republican. If you want to peel them off from the rest of the GOP electorate, you have to offer them something else.

    The Guardian loves to push the idea of being to the left as though it is naturally the place to be, without regard to specific policies. If the Democrats believe that, they will end up being left behind.

  23. 23
    Chyron HR says:


    Bernie Sanders’s 2016 candidacy rewrote the rules by which the Democratic party operates.

    Sure. Prior to Bernie most people thought the Democratic primary was over after all the primaries and caucuses had ended, but now we know that it extends to the convention, or, if necessary, the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December.

  24. 24
    Immanentize says:

    Good morning All. It’s snowy and iced over her north of Boston, but it is supposed to hit 50 later today. Up and down so far all winter. It’s a wonder I am not sick.

  25. 25
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @rikyrah: Good Morning to you and everyone else.

    @OzarkHillbilly: Blech to you, which I believe is “good morning” in Ozark dialect.

  26. 26
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Brachiator: Agree that “redistribution vs. representation” doesn’t capture what was at stake in the 2016 Democratic primary. Donegan is just accepting Sanders’ framing here — insulting statements he made (“It’s not enough to say, ‘I’m a woman, vote for me…'”) reduced the differences between them down to that false choice.

    I’m sure you’re correct that most Americans would say they care more about “fairness” than “redistribution,” but that’s a matter of semantics, really. We won’t get to fairness without some redistribution.

  27. 27
    Quinerly says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: some nasty comments on that second Instagram. I’m horrified sometimes by what we are up against. Thanks for these posts. Made me smile this AM….. until I read the comments.

  28. 28
    Baud says:

    @Quinerly: Never read the comments.

  29. 29
    Immanentize says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:
    Oooo. Glad I saw you! Great story! Both of them. Yes, I knew the Bundy tale. I even got to meet and chat with Pickering when I first went to Texas…. Before the Hale and Dorr merger.

  30. 30
    Immanentize says:

    @Quinerly: @Baud:
    I agree with Baud. Don’t do it!

    I always wonder, do commenters like that really take the time to vote? I hope not….

  31. 31
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: In the Ozarkian dialect, “Blech” is short for, “I puke in the general direction of all your overly cheery happy happy joy joy Good Mornings.”

  32. 32
    TS (the original) says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:

    He will always get the crowds – something the impostor can only buy.

  33. 33

    @Baud: I read and even comment on one guys YouTube site, but he’s Canadian and funny.

  34. 34

    @OzarkHillbilly: In other words, it’s Ozarkian for ‘Good Morning’.

  35. 35
    Baud says:

    In his quest to build a border wall, President Donald Trump has warned of jobs stolen from American workers, suburbs terrorized by criminal aliens, and desperate migrant caravans headed north. Lately, though, he has found a favorite new target in the “ruthless coyotes” and “vicious cartels” that smuggle migrants into the United States.

    Yet Trump’s “zero tolerance” immigration policies have made America’s historically weak anti-smuggling efforts even weaker. Over the past two years, as smuggling networks have thrived, the Department of Homeland Security has shifted money and manpower away from more complex investigations to support the administration’s all-out push to arrest, detain and deport illegal immigrants. …….

    In the first full fiscal year of Trump’s presidency, the number of new human smuggling cases launched by Homeland Security Investigations, or HSI, the investigative arm of Immigration and Customs Enforcement, dropped from 3,920 to 1,671, a decline of almost 60 percent. Even more than in the past, the agency has focused its anti-smuggling efforts on low-level “coyotes” caught in the act of sneaking migrants into the country or transporting them inside the United States, current and former officials said. The Human Smuggling Cell, a special intelligence unit set up within ICE to support more ambitious migrant-smuggling efforts, has dwindled to less than half the staff it had in 2016.

  36. 36
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: The War on Drugs strategy applied to immigration.

  37. 37
    Amir Khalid says:

    I just read it. You were wise not to; it is the work of a Wilmer stan.

  38. 38
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Immanentize: Since we so rarely collide in the comments,it’s nice to run into to you, and I’m happy you enjoyed the stories. I was embarrassed re-reading the Bundy tale when it occurred to me that of course you’d know it.

    As for the local one, there are dozens, as you can imagine. The same lawyer, when we were (unsuccessfully) defending a bank robbery, had know me for about 12 years when we called a witness the afternoon before her appearance to tell her what time to meet us. “I’m six-five,” he said, which is pretty identifying, “and my associate has short red hair and” – looking across the desk at me – “you’re what, 5’10”?” I assured the witness that I’d be about 5’4″ given the shoes I’d be wearing. Apparently when you’re very tall, everybody under 6′ looks the same.

    Happy weather shifting day in Boston.

    @OzarkHillbilly: That’s what I mean! I just say it in my legal dialect.

  39. 39
    Baud says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Obviously, if those sorts of articles (which you’ll see a lot of) were correct, Bernie would walk away with the nomination. The idea behind them is that, when he doesn’t, the People will look to alternative reasons for his loss, and will conclude some sort if corrupt rigging by the Establishment. We saw this in 2016.

  40. 40
    debbie says:


    Pity “zero tolerance” wasn’t in place when his mother came to America.

  41. 41
    Baud says:

    Sen. Cory Booker’s campaign will announce a slew of endorsements Thursday from New Jersey Democrats in a show of home state support so far unmatched by rival Democratic candidates for president.

    Every Democrat in New Jersey’s congressional delegation is throwing their support behind the state’s junior senator — including 11 House members, among them House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman Frank Pallone, and Sen. Bob Menendez, who previously announced he would back Booker.

  42. 42
    debbie says:


    It seems to me the only ones pimping “redistribution” are the people of means who continue to push trickle-down bullshit.

  43. 43
    rikyrah says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:
    I saw that…
    I would run to see 44 too😏

  44. 44
  45. 45
    Baud says:


    Right. I support policies that have a redistubutive effect, but redistribution for the sake of redistribution is bad policy and economics IMHO.

  46. 46
    rikyrah says:

    I read the title and my only reaction was:

    Get the ENTIRE Phuck Outta Here 😡😡

  47. 47

    @Baud: Booker really wants Menendez’s endorsement? Is he really sure about that?

  48. 48
    rikyrah says:




  49. 49
    CliosFanboy says:

    Suddenly, the white male establishment finds itself in a world where it has to contend with, not just other white men, but women, candidates of color, & LGBTQ people.

    I honestly don’t get why this is not a good thing for other older white guys. You open up the pool of candidates you get better choices. Who the hell wants to eat at a restaurant with just one thing on the menu? You may say “well, they don’t like the competition.” Competition for what? I’m not ever running for office.

  50. 50
    rikyrah says:

    Morning to Poco and the tribe 😊😻

  51. 51
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: Now you done it. You two talking about these stories has piqued my curiosity and now you have to provide me with links.

  52. 52
    rikyrah says:

    You want receipts on Bernie?
    The People’s View has them by the truckload in one post.

  53. 53
    randy khan says:

    I found myself taken aback by this:

    To defend Clinton from sexism meant that we would be accused of condoning the worst choices of her history.

    Even in an article that is somewhat sympathetic to her, we get this kind of terrible framing. (Because, you know, it’s not about her Iraq vote.)

  54. 54
    rikyrah says:

    Strike two for Klobuchar:😡😡

    Daniel Strauss (@DanielStrauss4) Tweeted:
    Sen. Klobuchar is fundraising with supporters of Stacey Evans, who was defeated by Stacey ABRAMS in Georgia’s Democratic primary. She’s not meeting with Abrams during her swing through Georgia. By contrast, Sen. Warren met with Abrams

    . (

  55. 55
    debbie says:


    Someone needs to rebrand the whole issue as “redistribution of opportunity.”

  56. 56

    Shouty old white man was never qualified, in my view. Running again in the current field paints him as just another grifter.

  57. 57
    danielx says:


    Good morning.

  58. 58
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: There aren’t exactly links, but Immamentize can tell you the Bundy tale; I’ll be offline for an undetermined duration.

    Also if you give Adam your burner email I can send the you other one, which is admittedly totally not as interesting.

  59. 59
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    ‘This has poisoned everything’ – pollution casts shadow over New Mexico’s booming dairy industry

    For months, Clovis, New Mexico, dairy farmer Art Schaap has been watching his life go down the drain. Instead of selling milk, he is dumping 15,000 gallons a day – enough to provide a carton at lunch to 240,000 children. Instead of working 24/7 to keep his animals healthy, he’s planning to exterminate all 4,000 of his cows, one of the best herds in his county’s booming dairy industry.

    The 54-year-old second-generation dairy farmer learned last August that his water, his land, his crops – even the blood in his body – were contaminated with chemicals that migrated to his property from nearby Cannon air force base.

    The toxins, collectively known as PFAS, have caused rampant pollution on military installations, something the Department of Defense (DoD) has known about for decades but routinely failed to disclose. Now New Mexico’s dairy industry is ground zero in an unprecedented crisis. For the first time ever, PFAS is threatening the US food supply.

    “This has poisoned everything I’ve worked for and everything I care about,” Schaap said. “I can’t sell the milk. I can’t sell beef. I can’t sell the cows. I can’t sell crops or my property. The air force knew they had contamination. What I really wonder is, why didn’t they say something?”
    Schaap’s dairy is ground zero, but this may soon change. The toxic plume is spreading slowly and inexorably – not only under Schaap’s fields but across the Ogallala Aquifer, the largest aquifer in the nation, which spans 174,000 miles and parts of eight states.

    Based on more than a dozen interviews and an examination of more than 100 chemical studies, government reports and court cases, Searchlight New Mexico discovered that:

    A July 2017 inspection by air force scientists found contamination near the Schaap dairy – an inspection that came eight years after the air force identified the need for such an inspection. That report specified evidence of at least 10 serious contamination sites where participants in air force training exercises had sprayed hundreds of gallons of PFAS-containing firefighting foam on the ground, in unlined ponds and storm drains, among other places.

    -The air force reported its findings to the New Mexico environment department (NMED), but not to the people living nearby.

    -NMED failed to notify nearby residents in 2017. More than a year later, it issued a notice of violation to the air force, which has refused to take corrective actions in response.

    -When the air force finally tested Schaap’s water on 28 August 2018, it was found to be so polluted that the military immediately began delivering bottled water to the family home. One of Schaap’s wells tested at 12,000 parts per trillion, or 171 times the EPA health advisory level of 70 ppt.

    -To date, there has been no definitive accounting of the harm done to the public health, food chain and economy in New Mexico, which are especially pointed in the air force communities of Clovis and Alamogordo.

    “This is a national contamination crisis at this point, and we’ve really only scratched the surface in understanding how large of an impact it’s having on health, both in highly contaminated communities like Clovis and across our entire population,” said David Andrews, a senior scientist for the Environmental Working Group, which leads a campaign to regulate the compounds.

    “They have poisoned the groundwater at 121 military bases across the US, the DoD disclosed in 2018.” and what about our airbases around the world?

  60. 60
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Didn’t tobie mention yesterday that Abrams wasn’t in town for Klobuchar’s visit?

    @debbie: “opportunity” has it’s own problematic history. But I agree we need better terms.

  61. 61
  62. 62
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: All good things flow from Bernie. All evil emanates from the DNC.

  63. 63
    Spikester says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Cameron Indoor Bandbox holds considerably less than half that many people.

  64. 64
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: That just makes me want to say, “If the people of NJ are so fond of him, why don’t they keep him?” and I don’t even dislike him.

  65. 65
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: Well, you gotta admit the redistribution of trickle-up has worked out pretty well for them.

  66. 66
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    Who the hell wants to eat at a restaurant with just one thing on the menu?

    Old white guys.

  67. 67
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I suppose this is better than not having any NJ Dems endorse him.

  68. 68
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:

    Also if you give Adam your burner email I can send the you other one, which is admittedly totally not as interesting.

    Nah, that sounds like work and I don’t want to put you out just to satisfy my curiosity. I was just kinda hoping you guys had shared some links in a previous comment thread. Many thanx tho.

  69. 69
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @CliosFanboy: I have never understood the attitude with respect to anything. If you are hiring, don’t you want people to do the job competently? Why pass over qualified candidates in favor of the incompetent asshole who’s going to destroy your reputation and your company and drive all the good people say? Just because he’s a white guy?

    Yet people doing hiring make that decision over and over.

  70. 70
    rikyrah says:

    BBC News (UK) (@BBCNews) Tweeted:
    Thursday’s Independent: “Sevenfold rise in Britons stripped of citizenship” #bbcpapers #tomorrowspaperstoday
    (Via @AllieHBNews)

  71. 71
    rikyrah says:

    Just dust 😪 😪

    Janet 🥀 (@nostalgiaonfilm) Tweeted:
    Am I crying at Ryan Coogler getting emotional over meeting a young fan ?? YESSSSS ….. REPRESENTATION MATTERS

  72. 72
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: For sure, but I feel like this is waaaaaaaaaaaay too soon to start touting endorsements, which to be honest I have never put much stock in anyway. I am sure I would feel different if I was a player in infernal DEM politics, but I’m not.

  73. 73
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Baud: Especially here.

  74. 74
    rikyrah says:

    Daniel Sugarman (@Daniel_Sugarman) Tweeted:
    I can’t sleep.

    It has been a difficult few years to cover what’s been going on in the Labour Party.

    But tonight – seeing the actions of certain people who are supposedly the future of the Labour Party – I have been left deeply shaken. I can’t remember feeling this distraught.

  75. 75
    Kay says:

    Warren has, by far, the most specific policies. I worry a little about her though because she has to do really well in New Hampshire or they’re going to bury her early.
    Sanders potentially hurts Warren more than any of the rest of them, which is ironic, given that Warren was the liberal savior in 2012. We could end up with a less (economically) liberal nominee because of Bernie Sanders – he could knock Warren out early and then fizzle himself in the later states, where she might have been stronger than him, had she gotten past him early.

  76. 76

    @Gin & Tonic: Yeah, Cole lets anyone comment here.

  77. 77
    Baud says:

    @Kay: She does have specific policies, although it’s a bit too early to compare her to other candidates in that regard. I don’t think you get too many points for being the first out of the gate on that, especially given how early the race started this year.

  78. 78
    Nelle says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Thanks for posting this. My husband is a hydro geologist and keeps track of this sort of thing.

  79. 79
    rikyrah says:


    Jeff Tiedrich (@itsJeffTiedrich) Tweeted:
    you could almost acclimate yourself to a president who is confused and demented and lazy and a criminal and a cheat and a liar and a traitor and a moron and a grifter and a coward but holy fucking shit does he really have to be such a fucking whiny crybaby all the fucking time

  80. 80
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh 😒

    Brian Beutler (@brianbeutler) Tweeted:
    I don’t know how many, say, Latino and Muslim reporters work at CNN or will have to work alongside or under Sarah Isgur, but it seems like their concerns never entered the equation at all, and so this breach of integrity is also a story about the importance of diversity in media.

  81. 81
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Even me.

    @Baud: She does from me. I like people who have actually put some thought into the problems we face and the possible solutions to them but I’m kinda weird that way. Unlike our avg voters who just want to know if they’d like to have a beer with that guy. (the “guy” here is not an accident)

  82. 82
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Sure, but does it matter to you that she unveiled her proposals now as opposed to June or October of this year, which other candidates might do?

  83. 83
    Ken says:


    Bernie Sanders’s 2016 candidacy rewrote the rules by which the Democratic party operates.

    Unfortunately, not to the point that they’re going to require candidates be Democrats and release ten years of tax returns.

    Not yet, anyway…

  84. 84
    rikyrah says:

    Thread by Frum

    David Frum (@davidfrum) Tweeted:
    Trump fantasizes about violent retribution … one of his admirers concocts a murder plot … and when thwarted -which thank God to date they have been – it becomes bad form to mention the possibility of a connection between Trump’s words and his supporter’s actions.

  85. 85
    Chris Johnson says:

    @debbie: Oh FFS. We have ‘opportunity’ for health care, too. If you can pay for it.

    Thatcherite ‘let’s everyone be exceptional!’ is not going to win an election with more millenials than ever.

    As a small business guy doing good enough work to get a shout-out in a FYNYT op-ed based on my work, I do not want MY CUSTOMERS thrown into the maw of late-stage capitalism to survive only if they are the most exceptional strivers. I want them to have some disposable income so _I_ can be a striver and earn it. Without that, I just get ‘oh you are so wonderful, if I was not literally starving I would spend money to support your work’. It’s nice being a helper but I want my customers to have MONEY.

    I’m ditching Bernie this time and all-in for Warren. TAXES are redistributive. Except now if you’re rich or a giant corporation with billions in reserve you pay no taxes at all, and it’s the job of poor people to pay the taxes. To demand wealth tax and redistribution is entirely sensible right now.

  86. 86
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh 😒

    Eric Boehlert (@EricBoehlert) Tweeted:
    reminder: every page of Ken Starr’s report was released to the public

  87. 87
    A Ghost To Most says:

    Same problem near Schriever (?) AFB in CO Springs.

  88. 88
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Yeah, I worry about that too. I haven’t decided on which candidate I’ll support yet, but I really want the policy ideas Warren has outlined to get a serious hearing in the primary and perhaps be adopted as part of the platform for the eventual nominee. If Sanders wins New Hampshire in a big way, the media will decide Warren is toast like you said, and then only Sanders’ vague slogans will be in the mix from the (economically) left portion of the field.

  89. 89
    rikyrah says:

    Colin Kaepernick (@Kaepernick7) Tweeted:
    The Nike Kaepernick Icon Jersey is out of stock! Thank you to everyone that took the time out of their day to pick one up. I am humbled and appreciate all your continued support. Check the link in the bio to be notified for the next drop! #TrueTo7
    📸: @DjToneDef

  90. 90
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Believe it or not, yes it does. To me, it means she has been thinking about these things for some time, that she really cares about them. It means they are more than just some campaign trail talking points her campaign put together after reading some of the other candidates proposals.

  91. 91
    Kay says:


    I don’t think she gets points either, which is why it’s brave. I think she has a really deep understanding of how the executive branch works – how it fits with congress. I think she would use the office really effectively, even if she were stymied by a GOP Senate. I assume it comes from creating an agency but she could also just be studious and hard working :)

    She’s really talented. If she doesn’t win any Democrat who does win should put her in the cabinet. The child care subsidy she proposes is 0 for lower income but “7%” for higher income. 7% of their income is the cap for what they can pay for childcare. 7% is also the number for healthcare. That’s the actual percentage in Ohio- that’s “affordable”. That number came out of Obamacare. What they’re doing is coming up with an actual formula of what middle class people can pay for X, Y and Z, as a percentage of income, without drowning and dropping out of the middle class, with “housing” as the wild card, because obviously that varies tremendously but that variation should be mitigated somewhat by high pay in areas with crazy-expensive housing.
    Democrats need an actual economic theory. This one is getting fleshed out. Now, she’s not going to go running around saying “7% for this, 7% for that” but it IS important there be some bigger picture behind the plans and she has that. You can see what it would look like at the end, when they’re finished. Subsidies for child care, education and health care with housing as a wild card.

  92. 92
    rikyrah says:

    In moderation, please help

  93. 93

    Open thread? My best friend was diagnosed with endometrial cancer and had a radical hysterectomy yesterday. She just called. Everything went fine. They’ll do some more tissue testing to be sure but they don’t think the cancer spread. She’s very relieved and so am I.

  94. 94
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    To be honest, if the people who really care about those policies don’t select Warren over Sanders, the message to me is that those policies aren’t ready for prime time national politics because the too many of the people who support them aren’t ready for prime time national politics. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I’m not feeling very patient these days.

  95. 95
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Ok, fair enough. I guess in the end I think people will examine the merits of the proposals themselves, but I can see why she gets extra credibility in that assessment.

  96. 96
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @A Ghost To Most: I would put money on it being a problem to varying degrees at every AFB. (assuming they all have planes flying in and out of them)

  97. 97
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: I heard an interview with Gillibrand on the Obama Bros podcast the other day, and she talked about percentages too, linking it to the formulas we’ve already accepted as a society so we don’t have to step over sick, homeless grannies camped out on sidewalks. It’s an effective framing, IMO, but I have no idea how it resonates with the general electorate.

  98. 98
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Again, I am only speaking for myself, not as to how it plays in an election, which is what you are speaking of and I am not disputing your points on that score.

  99. 99
    Jinchi says:

    In 2016, Sanders was the only option for people who thought Clinton was too conservative and too constrained in her views of what was politically possible. That was his appeal, particularly to young people who weren’t interested in incremental change.

    He won’t be the only candidate speaking to those issues in 2020 and I don’t expect him to get very far.

  100. 100
    rikyrah says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:
    Sending positive thoughts

  101. 101
    rikyrah says:

    Yeah… THIS 👏👏

    feminist next door (@emrazz) Tweeted:
    If you’re a working class Republican and you’re frustrated about paying into services to help others when you can barely help yourself, I get that. I really do. What I don’t get is why you blame the needy instead of the richest for placing the entire burden on you.

  102. 102
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh 😒

    Jill Filipovic (@JillFilipovic) Tweeted:
    Just a reminder that “white and male” is an identity. “Working class” is an identity. “Worker” is an identity. “Real American” is an identity. None of these are neutral, universal defaults. Running on them is also identity politics.

  103. 103
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    Age shouldn’t be a factor? Jesus Christ Berni, part of the mess we are in is because the Trump is so old he is in the early stages of dementia.

  104. 104
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @rikyrah: I like this tweet in reply:

    Replying to @itsJeffTiedrich

    I agree. Between the year before the election & the first year after, he used the word “unfair” so much it drove me nuts. A millionaire/billionaire who fell ass-backwards into the US presidency, constantly whining that everything was unfair. Cannot overstate how much I hate him.

  105. 105
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yep. That fire retardant foam is ubiquitous at airports.

    Just throwing this out there: back in August, 18 sealed indictments were filed in DC Federal court, before the election quiet period. I’m wondering if they start getting unsealed shortly.

    Eta I assume Stone and Corsi were two of them.

  106. 106

    The Founders thought age was a factor, which is why they set a minimum. I wish they’d have set a maximum too but I suppose they figured old men (sic) just died. Modern medicine sure fooled them. This is from The Guardian:

    The average age of congressional representatives has been increasing since 1981. In 2001, it was 55 years old; in 2011, 58, and in the current Congress, 59. Typically, congressional representatives are 20 years older than their constituents.

  107. 107
  108. 108
    rikyrah says:

    TRUTH 👏👏👏

    Nakkiah Lui (@nakkiahlui) Tweeted:
    Many White people – particularly White men – don’t see racism as abuse. They see it as a difference of opinion.

  109. 109
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Baud: Sanders’ turn to actually support the eventual primary winner in the general election and to encourage his supporters to vote for the Democratic candidate in November 2020.

  110. 110
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @rikyrah: this is the perfect time to open a store that doesn’t sell them!


  111. 111
    kd bart says:

    Some candidates produce bumper sticker slogans. Others produce actual plans.

  112. 112
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I don’t know either but I’m glad to see Democrats are developing some consistent framework.

    Warren is the furthest along, perhaps under the idea that “plan beats no plan”- if you come prepared and the other side doesn’t, you get a lot of what you want :)

    The sort of “global” idea is this- two earners, 100,000 in combined income, 7% tops for health care, 7% tops for child care, they’ll guarantee that stays under 14%, giving people security and the ability to plan what to do with the remaining. X for housing, X for saving, etc.

    It still allows for vast differences -it’s a percentage- but it puts in a floor, and while conservatives always portray a floor as limiting, Warren sees the floor as liberating, because it provides the security people need to plan. She’s limiting some risk but still allowing for all kinds of free marketyness. That’s her theory for how this should and would work.

  113. 113
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    Obama was born the yr I graduated from college. When I checked just now, I learned he was born just a few days before the Soviets put up the Berlin Wall (August 13, 1961).

  114. 114
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Best of luck to her for a speedy recovery. My wife recently had a total laparoscopic hysterectomy and is finding the recovery process slow and uncomfortable

  115. 115
    Kathleen says:

    @Brachiator: Any so called analysis of 2016 that frames the campaign dynamics as business as usual with Clinton and Sanders offering real choices and ignores the fact that Sanders wittingly or unwittingly was part of an orchestrated attack by Russia on voting process is not worth reading. I would go so far to say that articles like this are part of an active disinformation campaign and the writers are not to be trusted.

  116. 116

    @Just One More Canuck: Good thoughts to your wife. My friend’s surgery was done robotically which theoretically reduces the trauma to the body, but it’s never a joke.

  117. 117
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    And that’s where the pushback from “providers” comes in. Because they see the limit. If health care has to be no more than 7% of income out of pocket that means they’ll eventually hit limits. There will be less pushback from child care providers because they get rock bottom compensation now so it’s all upside for them, but I think some of the pushback to free college comes from higher ed providers, because they know if it’s put into a “percentage of income” scheme there’s a top limit. They don’t have a percentage of income frame now. It’s just “15k a year” or “50k a year”. 50k a year tuition is half the income for my hypothetical family. That’s way too high.

  118. 118
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Well, considering that the one story cites the dumping of “PFAS-containing fire-fighting foam” as a prime source of contamination in NM – duh.

    First question is whether USAF (& anyone else who uses FFF) has policies & procedures in place to prevent further pollution of ground water. Next question is what (if any) remediation is possible, & why it isn’t already underway.

  119. 119
    Emma says:

    I am not directing this at anyone in particular because the issue seems to come up in any political discussion, but since BLOODY WELL WHEN are we so afraid of the media? They are who they are and they serve who they serve. Having a nervous attack over their behavior gets us nowhere. I am getting especially pissy at the way we seem to rate candidates by their ability or inability to escape media criticism. Get it into your heads, they are, with rare exceptions, going to piss on the Democratic candidate. We need to adopt a Republican tactic here: push back. Relentlessly. In every way we can.

  120. 120

    @Kay: @Kay: I once asked David A. if we could get to something like Medicare for all with provider compensation remaining the same. He said he didn’t think so. That’s going to be a sticking point.

  121. 121
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Thank you – her major complaint is that she can feel food moving through her and it makes her feel bloated and uncomfortable, like an itch that she cant scratch. But it’s only been just over a week, and she is seeing improvement

  122. 122
    Kay says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    It is and I’ll defend providers. Some of them make huge amounts of money but a lot of them work really hard and make ordinary amounts of money and there’s a HUGE good-wage “middle class in health care”, so in that sense it’s a good industry. All the money doesn’t go to the top. People don’t object to “finance” as a sector. They object to finance as a sector model because it hugely rewards the top and doesn’t bring anything down to the lower rungs. The health care sector as a jobs model is pretty good- a well-paid top, but also a well-paid middle.
    But Democrats can go after the low hanging fruit and do a lot without reaching nurses or the whole “tech” group who make 50k.

  123. 123
    Kathleen says:

    @rikyrah: Glad you posted that here. Excellent summary.

  124. 124
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    First question is whether USAF (& anyone else who uses FFF) has policies & procedures in place to prevent further pollution of ground water.

    The article says, “No.”

    “I really want to emphasize this: our focus is drinking water for human consumption – not for agriculture, not for anything else,” air force spokesman Mark Kinkade told Searchlight.

  125. 125
    Kay says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    One of the things that annoys me about Bernistas is they won’t talk about providers. It’s easy to hate insurance companies and almost everyone does, but you can’t get the same rage going about nurses or imaging techs or all the other jobs in health care that pay good wages and are hugely in demand. It’s cowardly. You can’t talk about “free college” without talking about higher ed providers, who are going to fight like hell against the idea that higher ed needs to be 10% of middle class income, or whatever the number is. Student loans pay for something. Get rid of them and you’ll still have to pay providers. Then the attention shifts to “why does this cost so much?” and that’s where it gets ugly and blurry without good guys and bad guys.

  126. 126
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @rikyrah: Helpful, informative link. Thank you.

    More and more it’s clear Wilmer is at the least only out for himself. He’s supposedly intelligent, so he must see how he’s being used to destroy the democratis party. On my worst days, I suspect he’s welcoming the aid he’s getting.

  127. 127
    plato says:

    @Emma: Yup. The 3rd rate 4th estate, in its present profit-at-all-costs corporate owned state and their overpaid hacks, is a constant threat to the dems as well as democracy.

  128. 128
    tobie says:

    What a lazy Guardian article that essentially accepts Bernie’s framing. Here’s another difference between Warren and Sanders: the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau was Warren’s brainchild. She introduced the idea and helped make sure the agency was formed. What has Sanders ever accomplished of that magnitude? Nada!

  129. 129
    Kay says:

    Will Sommer
    ‏Verified account
    1h1 hour ago
    The White House is forcing interns to sign NDA’s and threatening them with financial ruin.

    This should be outlawed in government. It’s a corruption engine. The 5 or 6 people who are ethical and managed to get past the Trump “bring me the worst fucking people you can FIND” staffing plan can’t be blackmailed into not whistleblowing against the rest of the thugs and crooks.

    They’re all we have on the inside.

  130. 130
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @rikyrah: Who in the world is she listening to?!?!

    With the admiration Abrams now has among democratic voters and activists, not meeting with her seems totally bizarre!

  131. 131
    Kay says:


    I think it’s lazy too. Warren is a “let’s make capitalism work for regular people!” cheerleader. If the plutocrats had a brain in their fucking heads they would embrace her, because they’re going to kill the golden goose.

    I don’t think they see Bernie as a threat, which is almost tragic considering his supporters. Trump openly patronizes Bernie. He’s basically patting him on the head and saying “I LIKE you- have you considered being the nominee?”

    Compare with Warren, who he attacked immediately and viciously and with some success, because our horrible political media parroted him.

  132. 132
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kay: I really doubt the NDAs are enforceable. Somebody should file suit just to clear it up.

  133. 133
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Horseflies bothering you? Dress like a zebra! (science is amazing)

  134. 134
    tobie says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: I don’t know any details of this but I did check out Strauss’s Twitter feed and two factoids stood out: Abrams is apparently in NY this week and the fundraiser is not with Evans. Evans’ name doesn’t even appear on the invitation. It’s a fundraiser with the last Democratic governor of GA, Roy Barnes, which seems like a legit thing to do. There are no doubt tons of backroom deals and strategies that I’m not privy to, but this one story seems like manufactured outrage and I’m cautious about any news item designed to tarnish Dems.

  135. 135
    Gex says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I think in the end, plenty of those kinds of old white guys believe, at some level, that white people and men are superior.

    They may not even consciously realize it.

  136. 136
    tobie says:

    @Kay: imagine a woman running who had been in Congress for decades and not passed s single major piece of legislation. The press would be all over this.

    You’re absolutely right that Trump has been merciless in his attacks on Warren, because he fears her, whereas he’s patronizing to Sanders because he has this guy’s number and knows he’s a gadfly.

  137. 137
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: As was noted by tobie in an earlier thread, Abrams is out of state right now helping another Democrat. Sometimes schedules don’t mesh. Abrams is justifiably in high demand.

  138. 138
    chopper says:


    The toxic plume is spreading slowly and inexorably – not only under Schaap’s fields but across the Ogallala Aquifer

    ruh roh.

  139. 139
    Uncle Cosmo says:


    “I really want to emphasize this: our focus is drinking water for human consumption – not for agriculture, not for anything else,” air force spokesman Mark Kinkade told Searchlight.

    Meanwhile the PFAS is slouching toward the Ogallala Aquifer, which supplies drinking water to ~2 million people. Woopsie!

  140. 140
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @rikyrah: Really, really appreciate your links to stuff like this. Thank you.

  141. 141
    Nelle says:

    @rikyrah: Thank you for this link.

  142. 142

    @rikyrah: I hate it when I agree with Frum. Also, calling random terrorism misses the point because it is not random at all. Because we know who is directing it (the source) and which demographic will heed to that call for action and which demographic/s they will target.

  143. 143
    Uncle Cosmo says:


    …and three zebras – including one somewhat bemusingly called Spot.

    Shades of George of the Jungle & his elephant named Shep.

  144. 144
    bluefoot says:

    @rikyrah: I think they know it’s abuse, but they tell themselves it’s not in order to absolve themselves of responsibility.

  145. 145
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Emma: YES!!

    We need to take it as a given that media will relentlessly attack every dem candidate, twisting and spinning the least thing–mustard? tan suit. argula?


  146. 146
    Ruckus says:

    He’s been painted as just a grifter since about 2 months into his last run. By then it had become obvious that he had nothing to run on other than he was a senator. With a record not worth the breath it took to say it out loud. This time around he’s got far, far less to crow about. He jumped up on that national stage and dropped trou and showed his ass to all. He is liked by people that like ass in a politician but that’s about it. With all those bridges he burned last time…….

  147. 147

    @Emma: I have to step away from the comment section when it becomes a bed wetting contest. Which is quite often, one might add. We do live in scary times and our opponents want us to be perpetually afraid. I don’t want to give them what they want, easily.

  148. 148

    @Brachiator: Guardian is the paper of purity pony left. Their purity is more important to them than policies. They have been like this since as far back as I can remember. Their BS love is not surprising at all.

  149. 149
    Yarrow says:

    @tobie: Given this bad information that regular people could find out wasn’t true pretty quickly, who is Daniel Struauss and why is he spreading misinformation about Klobuchar? He stated that Klobuchar chose not to meet with Stacey Abrams when she wasn’t even in the state. No one was meeting with her in Georgia at that time–she wasn’t there. Klobuchar was also fundraising with the former Governor, so that’s not exactly “supporters of Stacey Evans”, although I guess he might have supported her. Why is Strauss misleading people? Who is he and what’s his agenda?

    It’s also a slur on Stacey Evans, who is a good Democrat according to people in Georgia, and from all accounts was a great team player when she lost the primary. I remember she immediately endorsed Stacey Abrams. Why pit them against each other? Georgia needs all the good Democrats they can find.

    There may be reasons to vote for or against various Dem presidential primary candidates but I’m highly skeptical of people who are lying about the candidates at this point. By last night I didn’t see that he had issued a correction.

    @rikyrah: Do you know more about Daniel Strauss?

  150. 150
    Leto says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: @OzarkHillbilly:Part of the issue with FFF is how do you contain the run off? Fire fighter foam is designed to be sprayed on a burning jet with no thought of containment. It needs to contain a myriad of issues: electrical, jet fuel, with fighters and bombers: unexplored ordinance, and with exotic planes their LO exterior coatings. And the fire fighters have to do this in areas with no ready access to water. I guess what needs to happen is chemical engineers have to go back to the drawing board?

    Why isn’t remediation/clean up possible? Because we (USAF/DoD) have been dumping chemicals into the ground since the 50s (honestly earlier). It wasn’t until the 70s we had the EPA, and it was still common practice to dump. All of that material has leeched into the ground water and soil. There are places on my base, way away from the flight lines, where we can’t build anything because the soil is contaminated multiple feet down. If you have a well in the local area, you haven’t been able to drink from that for at least the past decade. The government has been delivering bottle water to them for years. About six months ago, the local businesses that served food had to shut down for two days over a potential water contamination scare.

    We’ve done existential damage to our environment in the name of national security. Maybe conservatives will stop bleating on about the EPA when literally all of food is imported because we can’t grow anything. I highly doubt it but still. Climate change is killing us, we’re poisoning ourselves…

  151. 151
    Aleta says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Not a good time for those EPA cuts. I remember in 2017 news about admin. orders to remove EPA records, at least from public access. (Don’t know what happened after that.)

    The EPA was tracking the health of people who lived/worked on bases and installations that were designated Superfund sites, and other data.

    Cleanup/containment at almost all of those sites is over, but the health tracking and notification was continuing. My sister worked at NASA Ames at Moffett Field in the 90s. She was very proud of having an office there, not too far from Hanger 1 (built for an airship). They took me to see it and I remember them making light about the water they weren’t supposed to drink, but that she did. They were nut libertarians by then, anti- all that EPA stuff because ‘survival of the fittest’ and ‘don’t tell us what to do.’ (They both died of cancer, which is why I started reading about bases and toxic pollutants.)

    I’m shocked by your article though. I knew about military site pollutution—storage of chemicals lax, cleanup still needed, families exposed and high cancer rates—but I assumed the time when it was just ignored and not even measured was over. Assumed that (since aircraft paint and its stripper was known to be one of the big problems) AF bases would not be overlooked.

  152. 152
  153. 153
    Aleta says:

    Some good news out of New Mexico

    The New Mexico House of Representatives has voted in favor of automatic voter registration legislation.

    Lawmakers late Tuesday night approved a bill that would change that state’s voter registration to be “opt-out” at motor vehicle offices, according to Las Cruces Sun News.

    Currently, drivers in New Mexico can choose to be registered to vote when they get their driver’s license or ID at a Motor Vehicle Division office through an “opt-in” system, the newspaper noted. If the new legislation passes the state Senate, the registration process would be changed to automatically register people unless they choose to opt out, it added.

    The measure, which was passed in a 44-22 vote in the House, reportedly faced opposition from Republican lawmakers who said that it could result in ineligible people becoming registered to vote illegally.

    The Hill

  154. 154
    Ben Cisco says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I spent a year on that base one week. Never have I been so happy to have gotten incorrect PCS orders.

  155. 155
    rikyrah says:


    This makes no sense. How can this be legal…they are PUBLIC EMPLOYEES.

  156. 156
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Anecdata, so take it with a grain assault, but my MD sister-in-law and nurse-anesthetist sister have come around to supporting single payer health care even though they know it will cut their salaries. It’s because the insurance companies are making the practice of medicine hellish, and they report that their opinions on this aren’t outliers among their peers. I have no idea if there’s any polling to support that, but I have listened to doctors rail about insurers interfering with the doctor-patient relationship for decades.

    ETA: I know the expression is supposed to be “grain of salt,” but I heard about someone who thought it was “grain assault,” and I love the idea of being pelted with barley so much that I’m on a personal crusade to popularize it. :)

  157. 157
    Leto says:

    @Aleta: We’re not allowed to drink the water on base. We have regular delivery of bottled water. This happened a few years ago. All of the old timers, people who’ve been here for over 15-20 years, still drink it. They haven’t noticed any problems so it’s A-OK with them!

    I have a five page report in my medical records of all the bio environmental hazards I was exposed to during my year in Iraq at a remote forward operating base. It was kind of crazy what I was daily exposed to. I don’t have one for all of my years stateside.

  158. 158
  159. 159
    Yarrow says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I read that last night but it’s just a very short bio. Maybe someone has some more insight. It’s not a good look for him to be spreading misinformation.

  160. 160
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @tobie: Thanks . I forgot my ‘be very careful eww when reading neg stories about dems’ warning buzzer!

    There are many out there to take down all ‘real’ dem candidates!

  161. 161
    The Moar You Know says:

    Guardian is the paper of purity pony left.

    @schrodingers_cat: I consider myself a fairly extreme leftist and the Guardian is both unrealistically extreme when not being flat-out idiotic.

  162. 162
    Yarrow says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: It really pisses me off. See my comment above asking about Daniel Strauss. There’s absolutely no reason for a reporter to be lying about a Dem primary candidate unless the intent is to damage them. It’s ridiculous and seems to be done on purpose since the correct info is so easy to find.

  163. 163
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Yarrow: Politico, in and of itself, sets off some warning bells for me.

  164. 164
    tobie says:

    @Yarrow: Strauss is a reporter for Politico, as is his friend Elena Schneider, whom he frequently retweets and who is herself an unabashed Bernie fan. The two of them have been on a tear about Klobuchar, which to me is weird only because I don’t think she’ll win Iowa and she certainly won’t win NH, GA, CA or SC, which would spell the end of her candidacy. Anyhoo, this story will likely disappear quickly. II’m much more worried about what Bill Barr will do to suppress Mueller’s report and I hate the breathless praise for Mueller as an institutionalist who won’t indict a sitting President when Rome is burning.

  165. 165
    chopper says:

    oy, bernie. fuck that guy.

  166. 166
    Omnes Omnibus says:


    There’s absolutely no reason for a reporter to be lying about a Dem primary candidate unless the intent is to damage them.

    The real problem is that each of the sentences in the Strauss tweet may in fact be factually accurate but the tweet as a whole creates an entirely inaccurate depiction of what is going on.

  167. 167
    Yarrow says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I had sort of baked in the Politico part. Still doesn’t tell me a lot more than be skeptical.

    @tobie: Thanks. That’s a bit more info. I didn’t know anything about him outside of his bio. I’m kind of surprised that his tweet has gone so viral and he hasn’t corrected it (that I’ve seen). It’s a bad look for him.

    Rikyrah has posted that tweet here twice so I hope she sees some of these comments.

  168. 168
    Aleta says:

    From the Military Times, April ’18. It has are links to the list of bases.

    Maureen Sullivan, deputy assistant secretary of defense for environment, safety and occupational health, said [the DoD] has also released the full list of installations, reported in a lengthy chart attached toward the end of the congressional report, and will be working with the Centers for Disease Control next year on a study of the potential long-term effects of exposure.

    “It’s an issue not just in New Hampshire, but at military installations across this country,” said Sen. Jeanne Shaheen, D-New Hampshire. “We have 1,500 people who have been tested with elevated levels in the Portsmouth area, who are anxious about their future and their children’s future. And I know there are many people throughout the Air Force and our other military installations who share that concern.”

    In all, 25 Army bases; 50 Air Force bases, 49 Navy or Marine Corps bases and two Defense Logistics Agency sites have tested at higher than acceptable levels for the compounds in either their drinking water or groundwater sources. Additionally, DoD tested 2,668 groundwater wells both on and in the surrounding off-base community and found that 61 percent of them tested above the EPA’s recommended levels.

    The first target for the department was to address the 36 direct drinking water sources that are contaminated and “cut off that human exposure as soon as possible,” Sullivan said. DoD was only able to do that quickly at the 24 locations where it manages the water supply. At those locations it has installed filters at the water source or inside base housing, relocated water usage to another well, or provided alternate drinking water, such as water bottles, for personnel, Sullivan said.

    For the other 12 drinking water sources, provided either by a contracted vendor or through the local utility, it’s a harder fix, because the EPA’s guidelines are not enforceable. For example, commercial airports and industrial sites also use the foam, which could impact a municipality’s drinking water, but it will be up to that municipality to determine if it will test and make fixes to comply with the EPA’s guidelines, Sullivan said.

    For the groundwater sources, both on-base and off-base, however, cleanup will take years to address, Sullivan said. Those groundwater sites will be added to the department’s long list of environmental cleanup responsibilities it has at each of its more than 2,900 facilities around the world, and will prioritize that cleanup based on risk. Sullivan estimates the groundwater perfluorinate cleanup will add about $2 billion to the $27 billion previously identified cleanup projects for which the department is responsible.

    The services are also phasing out the firefighting foam they use and working on replacements that do not contain perfluorinated compounds, Sullivan said.

    The EPA issued new guidelines (lower levels I think) in 2016. Surprised to read above that, though the guidelines are being followed on bases, “drinking water sources, provided either by a contracted vendor or through the local utility, [are] a harder fix, because the EPA’s guidelines are not enforceable.”

  169. 169
    Yarrow says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Yes, that’s true. The “not even meeting with Stacey Abrams” part is true but incredibly misleading.You can’t meet with someone who isn’t there. He’s an asshole.

  170. 170
    Kathleen says:

    @Kay: I have an excellent Medicare Advantage plan which includes cost effective dental plan
    Problem is it’s hard to find dentist who will accept it. Also there are PCP’s, PT’s etc who will not accept Medicare insurance. Any M FA plan will have to care for provider compensation or it will not work.

  171. 171
    Feckless says:

    Yes let’s repeat the highly successful Clinton 2016 campaign no meat, no potatoes, just I’m going to be the 1st woman president. Over and over and over.

    “I’m with her”. (But is she with us? or her “constituents” on wall street?, or is she with her flag burning smendment? Who cares her birth characteristics make her actual positions unassailable)
    All Hillary gave us was demographics. And she didn’t even carry that demographic!
    Even if you believe Ashton is right to criticize Sanders, why hate on people for finally Doing the Right Thing?
    Bigotry is wrong. Period. Even towards old ‘white’ men.
    And as for the condemning tweet by ‘ashton’ hes an anti semite for opposing the first Jewish candidate for president, fuck you nazi.

    Or we could focus on the good things about OUR party candidates and leave the stupid fact free hate fest to the other side.

  172. 172
    Kathleen says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: I believe that every day

  173. 173
    Gin & Tonic says:


    Or we could focus on the good things about OUR party candidates

    Well, hello, nym I’ve never seen before. When you say “OUR party”, which party is that referring to? Most of us here are actually Democrats, you know.

  174. 174
    Yarrow says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Is that the party where a candidate joins when it’s convenient for him, like to use the party infrastructure for a national campaign, and then leaves after he doesn’t need it anymore? Hmmm…

  175. 175
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Yarrow: Ha, funny you should bring that up — I’m working on a post in the backroom on this topic right now. Bottom line: the Klobuchar snub of Abrams never happened, and we’ll all need to be very careful about jumping on the latest outrage bait in the coming months.

  176. 176

    @Gin & Tonic: Comrade Feckless is new, reporting for duty from a basement in Smolensk?. Someone must have used Wilmer’s real name in the comments.

  177. 177
    Plato says:


    Yeah, st bernie, the jewish god, who couldn’t even hack the 2016 dem primary, wudda won 2016 GE so easily. Idiot.

  178. 178
    Gin & Tonic says:

    And on a personal note, nothing new here, but a resounding “fuck you” to Stephen Miller, Donald Trump and company. My son and his girlfriend left the country for a long weekend to attend a friend’s wedding, and so his GF could take care of some visa issues. Well, he flew back alone, and she is now trying to get an appointment to get that stuff squared away. Not going to go into a lot of specifics here, but the problem is very clearly (according to her lawyer) due to current administration policies. She has a good job and a pretty expensive lease in NYC, and the full-throated support of her employer, and yet it appears to be more or less a crapshoot now.

    Tension is pretty high.

  179. 179
    Yarrow says:

    @Betty Cracker: Read through this thread for some good info. Also read last night’s thread where the Strauss tweet was initially posted. It’s deliberate misinformation. As Omnes said it’s technically correct but designed to create outrage and anger and split Democrats. This Strauss guy is an asshole. He’s not alone in doing this, of course. Look forward to your post.

  180. 180
    Leto says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Bernie-Juice! Bernie-Juice! Bernie-Juice! Summons the trolls/bots every time.

  181. 181

    @Gin & Tonic: September 11 is also partially to blame for that. Before that you could go to either Canada or Mexico and take care of routine visa renewal stuff. You could get appointments fairly easily. Now there are endless waits at every stage. Needless to say the situation has gone from bad to worse in the last 2 years.
    ETA: Good luck to her and your son and keep us updated

  182. 182
    Brickley Paiste says:

    Suddenly, the white male establishment finds itself in a world where it has to contend with, not just other white men, but women, candidates of color, & LGBTQ people.

    Yes, since it is an utter impossibility that white men could be G, B, T or Q.

    There’s insight and then there is mindless sloganeering …

  183. 183
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: It’s in the original post.

  184. 184

    @Yarrow: Its like a red flag to you know who.

  185. 185
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: It’s almost comical at this point. I think they’re desperate. Their cult leader isn’t getting the same adulation from the masses he did last time.

  186. 186
    Doug R says:


    Counterpoint: It’s Sanders’ turn.

    *Baud 2020!

    *if he’s the nominee

  187. 187
    wararah says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Sorry that happened. My daughter has several Hispanic friends that were born in the the USA. One accompanied us on a trip to Rome and Greek islands last summer and I was worried sick every time we went through customs.
    when we returned I found out another would go to the border and cross to see relatives without a passport. I told her of my concerns and she changed her mind about doing this this year.

  188. 188
    Brachiator says:


    It really pisses me off. See my comment above asking about Daniel Strauss. There’s absolutely no reason for a reporter to be lying about a Dem primary candidate unless the intent is to damage them. It’s ridiculous and seems to be done on purpose since the correct info is so easy to find.

    I had missed some of this stuff earlier. Thanks for the heads up and summaries. It does look like some deliberate, obnoxious bullshit.

  189. 189
    James Willett says:

    Go Bernie!

  190. 190
    Yarrow says:

    @Gin & Tonic: I am so sorry. Sending good thoughts it gets worked out.

  191. 191
    tybee says:

    @James Willett: and don’t come back.

  192. 192
    chopper says:


    Clinton 2016 campaign no meat, no potatoes, just I’m going to be the 1st woman president. Over and over and over.

    yes, that’s exactly what happened. you are very intelligent.

  193. 193
    janesays says:

    But Sanders has disqualified himself irretrievably in my eyes

    OK, if we’re talking about giving him any sort of consideration as a primary candidate who deserves your vote, I’m 100% in agreement with you. The sooner Sanders is off the stage, the better. Hopefully he’ll get stomped in New Hampshire and the inevitability of his doomed campaign will be clear to sane voters.

    That said… I am voting for the person who has the (D) beside their name on the November 2020 ballot, regardless of who that person is. Sanders is terrible, Gabbard is considerably worse… and yet either one of them would be an improvement over the status quo. And if the choice is one of those two people (or Biden or any other primary contender I would rather not have as our nominee), they will get my vote, indisputably.

    I hope everyone is on this page. There are plenty of reasons to dislike Sanders, and all criticism of the way he ran his 2016 campaign is fair game. I’m all for doing whatever is necessary to keep him from winning the nomination. But I don’t think we have the luxury of being able to say, “fuck that person, I will never vote for them” when the alternative is four more years of Cheetolini or his Talibangelical closet-case VP sitting in the White House.

    LITERALLY ANY DEMOCRAT is preferable to Trump or Pence in the White House the next time we get to vote. Ruth Bader Ginsburg is probably not going to be able to make it until January 2025, and I’m not sure Breyer will, either. Allowing Trump or Pence to pick their replacement(s) will have catastrophic effects on our nation for decades to come. Refusing to vote for a Democratic nominee who you don’t like is not a luxury we have in 2020. Even if that nominee is a fucking cranky old asshole who you can’t stand.

    Having said all of that… fuck Bernie Sanders and the entire BernieBro brigade.

  194. 194
    J R in WV says:


    So, 124 words about how terrible Secretary Clinton is, now terrible the Demoncrat Party is. Then 23 scant words with some positive views about an unnamed political “Our Party” … not really an outstanding performance unless you’re actually a Repuiblican, or a Russian troll, or both.

    Pied after the first feckless comment!! Fuckhead Feckless Russian Troll~!!

  195. 195
    hueyplong says:

    If getting me to feel the same way about berniebros as I do about the trumpsters is the goal, mission accomplished.

    Three years ago

    Maybe it’s a bit much to ask trolls to consider the concept of diminishing returns.

Comments are closed.