Friday Morning Open Thread: Come One, Come All…

Given the status of the current Oval Office Occupant, you can’t blame every possible Democrat for dreaming big. From the Washington Post, “‘Off the rails’”:

Headed for another defeat on his signature promise to make Mexico pay for a southern border wall, the president was frustrated after a briefing by Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen and others on details of the final deal to avoid a shutdown, according to officials involved in the discussions. Trump threatened not to sign the legislation, the officials said, putting the government on the brink of another damaging shutdown.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) was on the phone with Trump at least three times during the course of the nerve-racking day, pressing him to stay the course and asserting that Democrats had actually lost the spending fight, two people familiar with the conversations said.

“We thought he was good to go all morning, and then suddenly it’s like everything is off the rails,” said one senior Republican aide…

Though White House officials insisted Thursday that Trump was acting in a defiant and assertive way, few Republicans, including the president’s closest allies, were pleased with the ending: $1.375 billion for fencing and other expenditures, plus an emergency gambit that many conservatives view as an executive overreach.

Yet for Trump, the negotiations were never really about figuring out how to win. They were about figuring out how to lose — and how to cast his ultimate defeat as victory instead.

“Zero chance you could spin this as a win for Republicans,” Rep. Mark Meadows (R-N.C.), head of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, said earlier in the week. He called the bipartisan deal “a total capitulation” and added, “Bluntly, it was a waste of three weeks.”…

“I think the president’s view was that he could get us to fold. He could talk about his emergency; he could do all kinds of things,” Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Thursday in an interview with The Washington Post. “Once he learned he couldn’t bully us into doing what he wanted, once he learned that the public was on our side, he realized he should give up.”…

When Chuck Schumer takes a victory lap on looking more resolute, well…

… Trump did not have the stomach for another shutdown and told aides it had generated nonstop negative coverage. Polls showed most Americans blamed him for the shutdown in December and January, the longest in the nation’s history. And his advisers counseled him against a second shutdown, arguing that he had options to fund barrier projects without Congress. Even acting White House chief of staff Mick Mulvaney, once an advocate of budget brinkmanship, argued against a shutdown this time.

On Capitol Hill, there was no appetite, either, particularly among Republicans who were rattled by the GOP’s poor showing in suburban and swing areas last year. “Just not an option, at all,” Rep. Brian Fitzpatrick (R-Pa.) said. “We’d state the obvious: The first shutdown was a mistake and we can’t do it again.”…

It’s worth reading the whole thing, if you’ve got the stomach for it — like being inside one of the later Trollope novels.

Also, since it’s Friday:

238 replies
  1. 1
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  2. 2
    Mary G says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning to you, too! Although it’s insomnia in the wee hours for me.

    That article was delightful.

  3. 3
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Blech. Winter returns but not in an authoritative way, just messy.

  4. 4
    Quinerly says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning from Poco and his chauffeur from Pine Knoll Shores, NC! Poco is rested and going to do a little campaigning around some of his old haunts today. Baud/Poco 2020!

  5. 5
    rikyrah says:

    Barbara Lee came out and endorsed Kamala Harris. She is being attacked for that decision.
    ,……….

    Ragnarok Lobster (@eclecticbrotha) Tweeted:
    If the Cosplay Socialists turn on Barbara Lee it goes even further to illustrate their vain attempt to promote Lee for House Speaker was really about using her as a pawn in their quest to drive a wedge between Blacks and Nancy Pelosi

    . https://t.co/8WMkJsNlA0 https://twitter.com/eclecticbrotha/status/1096178189653692421?s=17

  6. 6
    rikyrah says:

    Elie Mystal (@ElieNYC) Tweeted:
    NOBODY IS SHOCKED THAT JEFF SESSIONS IS RACIST. There are just people who KNEW that and people who DIDN’T CARE to know that.
    https://twitter.com/ElieNYC/status/1096264456336752640?s=17

  7. 7
    rikyrah says:

    ReclaimingMyTime (@MonieTalks_1) Tweeted:
    If your family members voted for Trump, listens to Alex Jones, thinks Obama was born in Kenya, & you tip toe around discussing politics at dinner….but you a bad ass judgmental “progressive” on Twitter..your ass is canceled. FOH w/ your gentrified politics. Go work on grandpa.

    https://twitter.com/MonieTalks_1/status/1096216220645367809?s=17

  8. 8
    rikyrah says:

    The Russians are weaponizing race once again in this run-up to the 2020 Election, as they did the 2016 Election.

    ICYMI, they used race, targeting the Black community by the following:
    1.The relentless attacks on Hillary Clinton
    2. The pushing of Bernie Sanders, even after he had no chance of winning the nomination
    3. The pushing of Jill Stein as a third party alternative
    4. The pushing of “the system is corrupt, and there is no difference between Hillary and Trump, so why vote at all?”

    We all know that we saw some variation of all of these things during 2016.
    Those of us on the other side were telling folks that there was too much at stake in 2016 for the foolishness…and were told instead that we were clueless…that we just didn’t SEE everything as clear as the ‘woke ‘ folks, and that our pragmatism was just us being sellouts.

    Then, November 2016 happens, and the GOP gets control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency, and what happens?

    We get the GOP trying to institute the Hunger Games in America…we get them going after the health care for MILLIONS….we get the KKKEEBLER ELF as Attorney General, fulfilling all his White Supremacist fantasies…we get a Cabinet stocked with corruption and people with ill intent….we begin to get a judicial branch being stocked with flunkies from the Federalist Society….everyday seems like a fight against evil….

    So,where are those activists that had so much shyt to say during the Administration of 44?
    Who had a tweet or a thoughtpiece ready everyday, all day…about 44 and what he Didn’t do…
    Who had nothing but criticism and derision toward Attorney Generals Holder.and Lynch….

    Guess what….when hell was unleashed upon us….
    They went SILENT.

    I mean, you didn’t see them online….They didn’t just scale back…They became ghosts….

    Now, one has to wonder…if they were so committed..what happened to them…or, had they done the job THAT THEY WERE PAID TO DO BY THE RUSSIANS???😒😒

    See, when they tried peeking their heads above ground, there were those of us who were like…

    oh really? YOU are as much a reason for our predicament as any Dolt45 voter….

    You gonna purse your lips to say that there would have been no difference between President Hillary Clinton and Dolt45?

    So, they slink away, seeing that folks weren’t about to let their treachery go unnoticed.

    But, they are back….
    First they tried with the Kamala is a cop bullshyt….

    And, when that didn’t take hold like they wanted it to…

    NOW, they are trying it …..
    WITH this ADOS bullshyt.

    ADOS=AMERICAN DESCENDANTS OF SLAVES

    This is just the latest way for the “woke” to tell you that Kamala Harris isn’t REALLY Black…

    I haven’t been Black in South Africa…where they had the “Colored” delineation..
    I haven’t been Black in Brazil, where they seem to have a designation for every different shade…

    I have been Black in the United States of America…..

    And, in America, Kamala Harris is a Black woman. She has lived her life as a Black woman…for all the intellectual nonsense about ‘race is a social construct’…

    That construct has told Kamala Harris all her life that she is a Black woman….

    America was but one stop for those slave ships in this hemisphere…They went to the Caribbean and Brazil too..

    Yes, the one-drop rule was racist…but, stop pretending that it’s not still the reality….

    Show me where bi -racial Pookey, who just robbed the liquor store is seen as anything other than a Black criminal.
    Until then, you can miss me with the moving of the racial goalposts.

    ADOS is a hustle because I ask you to do a little research on the ADOS proponents….look and see where they were in 2016….dollars to donuts you will find that they were in the …
    “There is no difference between Hillary and Trump”….
    That they were ” too smart to vote for either of the two main political parties ”

    That the ultimate act of “wokeness” was to not vote at all…

    RESEARCH THEM …..

    This is who they are….

    And, I promise you….that, at the end of all the ADOS hustle will be the justification as to why you shouldn’t vote in 2020.

    Wake up, and smell the ratphuck, people. Check the bank accounts….

    Oh, and , as for the ADOS candidate Booker?
    OF COURSE THEY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH HIM TOO😒

  9. 9
    rikyrah says:

    I am not the only one noticing the weaponizing of ADOS:

    Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) Tweeted:
    Past Blackface is bad but Fake Russian & proTrump entities using false Black identities on web are worse. Russian bot backed & proTrump #AmericanADOS #ADOS campaign wants to split Blacks in Dem party. It’s an old old KGB/FSB tactic that must be called out.

    https://t.co/golMNGXUjg https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance/status/1096062917341007874?s=17

  10. 10
    rikyrah says:

    @rikyrah:

    Now, one of the hoteps attempts to educate Malcolm about ADOS, and Malcolm is like .

    What part of ADOS has been weaponized don’t you understand?😒🤔

    Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) Tweeted:
    @AntonioLozada @tonetalks Well you are now. 😡 The explosion of bots & fake Twitter in the last 30 days alone shows you’ve been coopted. Also your argument is fantastically stupid & easily manipulated. Anne Coulter & Candice Owens already tied a leash around #ADOS. You’re part of #MAGA now. Deal with it.

    https://twitter.com/MalcolmNance/status/1096078064952459265?s=17

  11. 11
    rikyrah says:

    @Quinerly:
    Morning to Poco and the tribe😊😻

  12. 12
    rikyrah says:

    Charlie Savage (@charlie_savage) Tweeted:
    Trump’s wall “emergency” lets him save face but will keep lawyers busier than builders. History will record it as one of his most extraordinary violations of constitutional norms, setting a precedent for future presidents who want try to bypass Congress.

    https://t.co/Y1AYMeE7ih https://twitter.com/charlie_savage/status/1096218362533822464?s=17

  13. 13
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @rikyrah: Rose twitter is a joke.

  14. 14
    rikyrah says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:
    True. And, I am glad that people are pushing back this election cycle.

  15. 15
    satby says:

    1% in 3 polls is too low a threshold; and the participants need to qualify as actual Democratic party members eligible to run on the party ticket (which better include disclosed taxes for several years). Otherwise it’s a waste of time.

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    If more than 20 candidates reach one of those two qualifications, the top 20 will be selected by using a separate method that rewards contenders for meeting both thresholds, followed by highest polling averages, and then the most unique donors.

    The Establishment is silencing non-traditional candidates yet again.

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  17. 17
    Immanentize says:

    @rikyrah: and I am glad you are one of them.

  18. 18
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: I am worried about the most unique small donors issue. Easily manipulated….

  19. 19
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah:

    Trump’s wall “emergency” lets him save face

    Why he’d want to save that face I’ll never understand. ::Groucho Emoji::

  20. 20
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    I noticed something odd in yesterday’s vote:

    Wilmer had been careful over the past year in consistently voting against all bills funding “Homeland Security”, yet he voted for it yesterday, even though his voted wasn’t needed and even though AOC and Chris Hayes were attacking the bill.

    This could be an indication that he’s not going to run.

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @Immanentize:

    Yeah, I don’t think there’s much verification for small donations.

  22. 22
    trnc says:

    “Zero chance you could spin this as a win for Republicans,” Rep. Mark Meadows (R-N.C.), head of the conservative House Freedom Caucus, said earlier in the week.

    Don’t know about you all, but my day just brightened up considerably.

  23. 23
    Baud says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: I noticed his vote too. But given his white working class base, I figured he was not inclined to say he wanted to keep the government closed over an immigration issue. I didn’t interpret it as a sign that get had given up on 2020.

  24. 24
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: maybe, because it has to be from different States, that they will only take verified donations? I don’t know.

  25. 25
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Today in DIY Cranial Amputations:

    Last fall, the launch of Nike’s 30th anniversary “Just Do It” advertising campaign, which starred ex-NFL star and social justice activist Colin Kaepernick, generated plenty of criticism. Vitriol poured on to social media; some disgruntled customers burned their Nike shoes on video.

    Stephen Martin was upset enough with the choice of Kaepernick – the quarterback who began kneeling during the national anthem to protest police brutality and systemic racism – that he stopped selling Nike products in his Colorado sporting goods store.

    Now his store, Prime Time Sports, is going out of business after 21 years. “For everybody that has offered help and support through the ‘Honor The Flag’ memorial wall and Nike boycott, now is your time to help me liquidate,” he posted on Facebook on Monday.
    ……………………..
    “Being a sports store and not having Nike jerseys is kind of like being a milk store without milk or a gas station without gas. They have a virtual monopoly on jerseys,” Martin told KKTV Colorado Springs.
    ………………………….
    At the time, Martin said that 50 to 60% of his business involved Nike products, so boycotting the brand would likely have dire consequences for his store. “Probably won’t be able to keep the doors open,” he said. “I really doubt that I can survive without Nike.” Time has now proved himself right.

  26. 26

    @rikyrah: wow. Just wow.
    Totally onboard with the 2016 fact check. Also wonder what the root cause is that drives taking up these positions, money, ideology, or just playing the spoiler (“I choose to be angry about something, and today I choose you”)

    Was and and am still very happy for Sen. Harris.

  27. 27
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    On one hand, I admire him for standing up for his principles. On the other hand, his principles we’re stupid.

  28. 28
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: If I had a face like that I’d trade it in for a naked mole rat’s face in an instant.

  29. 29
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Yep.

  30. 30
    Baud says:

    @Baud:
    We’re=were.

  31. 31
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    I made it through TSA at Washington National and am now squatting at my gate 45 minutes before boarding. Not sky-high wi-fi yet, but I want to limber up this nym.

    I’m off to Las Vegas (via Minneapolis) for a long weekend of weird family interactions, confinement with kids aged 4 and 2½ and hopefully some good eating and outdoor time.

  32. 32
    MomSense says:

    @rikyrah:

    Preach!!!

  33. 33
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): IMO, four-year-olds are almost universally fun. Two-year-olds are a crap shoot — sometimes literally! Safe travels, and have fun!

  34. 34
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): Nothing sweeter then family gathering to celebrate the opening of Spring Training.

  35. 35
    Betty Cracker says:

    @rikyrah: “Alexa, fast-forward to January 20, 2021!”

  36. 36
    rikyrah says:

    Thread

    ReclaimingMyTime (@MonieTalks_1) Tweeted:
    Rep. Barbara Lee received death threats & nasty letters after being the lone vote in Congress against post-9/11 AUMF. Yet some gentrified progressives think they can ‘cancel” her. Sit your “progressive” wanksta Twitter asses down somewhere.

    https://t.co/psLtHsvsSy https://twitter.com/MonieTalks_1/status/1096276675669737472?s=17

  37. 37
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    The 4-year-old (girl) is a full-on diva extrovert. The 2½-year-old (boy) is all about !trucks! and has recently shown a great interest in, and surprising skill with, Lego blocks. He doesn’t see the need to talk very often. Probably good, because his sister wouldn’t let him get a word in anyway.

  38. 38
  39. 39
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @rikyrah: yesterday proved once and for all the deep impotence of rose twitter.

  40. 40
  41. 41
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Pro-Israel lobbyists and donors spent more than $22m on lobbying and campaign contributions during the 2018 election cycle.

    The same or similar Israel-aligned groups and donors have spent hundreds of millions of dollars in recent decades, and that money poured into American politics through a variety of channels, according to the non-profit, non-partisan Center for Responsive Politics. The CRP uses federal election records to track campaign finance spending and makes its data available on the Open Secrets site.

    The Guardian examined campaign finance data after Muslim Minnesota congresswoman Ilhan Omar ignited a controversy with two tweets claiming pro-Israel lobby money influenced American political policy and discourse. The claim led to broad accusations of antisemitism from Democrats and Republicans. Omar later apologized but also stood her ground when it came to highlighting the influence of lobbyists, comparing influential pro-Israel lobby group, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (Aipac) to the the National Rifle Association and the fossil fuel industry.

    The data examined by the Guardian suggests that the pro-Israel lobby is highly active and spends heavily to influence US policy, though at levels far below those of many big business sectors.

    “I haven’t observed many other countries that have a comparable level of activity, at least in domestic lobbying data,” said Dan Auble, a senior researcher at CFR.

    Omar incorrectly suggested Aipac makes campaign contributions to candidates. However, records show it did spend about $3.5m lobbying during the 2018 election cycle. In total, pro-Israel lobbying groups spent about $5m in 2018, the highest tally since tracking began in 1998.

    Aipac spent the most of the lobbying groups, and is known for funding junket trips to Israel for freshman lawmakers and senators, as well as state legislators. Aipac also lobbied against the Iran nuclear deal in 2015 and supported the Trump administration’s withdrawal from the agreement.

    An Aipac spokesperson did not return requests for comment.

    A lot more numbers in the article and a very muddied picture they paint.

  42. 42
    rikyrah says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi):
    Have safe travels and a great trip 🤗

  43. 43
    debbie says:

    @rikyrah:

    This should have seemed obvious to even the most oblivious person. Could all of the racism in this country be found solely within the Democratic Party? Racism itself is an abomination, but the Stupid is equally horrible.

  44. 44
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    I was watching Maddow last night. On her show they identified Marco Rubio as a (D).

    Sigh.

  45. 45
    debbie says:

    @satby:

    It’s also way too early. All a debate will do is furnish talking points for opponents. Do some actual work NOW!

  46. 46

    Got out my morning med dispenser and found yesterday morning’s dose still sitting there. Hm. I am not dead yet, so no harm, no foul?

    I’m at science fiction conference today and tomorrow, but I plan to check for indictments at every break. Fingers crossed.

  47. 47
    rikyrah says:

    ReclaimingMyTime (@MonieTalks_1) Tweeted:
    So let me get this straight…Barbara Lee was one of the co-sponsors of the first Medicare for All bill introduced by John Conyers in 2003, the only member of Congress that voted against AUMF, has a proven progressive record of her OWN, but now she is a “corporatist.” Ha!

    https://twitter.com/MonieTalks_1/status/1096193325785325568?s=17

  48. 48
    Princess says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Nope. Wilmer needs the votes of crossover WWC who are disillusioned with Trump so he needs to be pro-Homeland security.

    I can’t imagine him not running.

  49. 49
  50. 50
    Betty Cracker says:

    It seems being surrounded by MAGA chuds is having an unhealthy effect on me. It’s a struggle not to subscribe to a liberal version of a Cleek’s Law, wherein I evaluate the desirability of political outcomes primarily according to their potential to make MAGA chuds sad.

    Example: as I shared the other day, our nearest MAGA chud neighbor named his router “TrumpisyourPresident.” My husband is trying to talk me out of naming ours something insulting as a retort — he worries about starting feuds.

    He noted that revenge is a dish best served cold and suggested I wait until the election is over and then name the router “[insert Democrat]IsYourPresident.” Even though I have an open mind about the primary, I realized I am kinda hoping Kamala Harris wins because having a black woman from California in the White House would really drive the MAGA chuds round the bend…

  51. 51
    Ken says:

    Rep. Brian Fitzpatrick (R-Pa.) said. “We’d state the obvious: The first shutdown was a mistake and we can’t do it again.”

    And some people said Republicans couldn’t learn.

    Whether he’ll retain the lesson through the end of the year – heck, fiscal quarter – is a separate issue.

  52. 52
    MomSense says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi):

    I find that little kids and pets are always the best part of family gatherings. You get to be the cool uncle who plays good music.

  53. 53
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh
    Uh huh 😒

    Natasha Bertrand (@NatashaBertrand) Tweeted:
    NEW: The Senate Intelligence chairman said last week that Chris Steele had remained unwilling to engage. But we can reveal that Steele submitted written answers to the committee in August. The panel then withdrew the subpoena for his testimony. My latest:

    https://t.co/3pehbc0q9g https://twitter.com/NatashaBertrand/status/1096208280408469505?s=17

  54. 54
    rikyrah says:

    And?
    So?😒😒

    🇨🇦 Golden Resister (@rjcrock2003) Tweeted:
    Trump’s economy is leaving his right-wing base stranded in poverty — and it’s getting worse

    https://t.co/MUlDCWpMfY https://twitter.com/rjcrock2003/status/1096379877064916992?s=17

  55. 55
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @rikyrah: I’ve been watching that whole business with horror and fascination… haven’t been sure what to make of it. But it sure seems like somebody is gaming Twitter hard. Every single Democratic candidate who announces immediately gets this enormous “left” hate pile-on, and the justification is always different but the behavior is the same. It’s like a different universe from the rest of political discourse. The disturbing thing is that people who I know are real, people who I’ve met in real life, sometimes get pulled into it.

  56. 56
    rikyrah says:

    🤣🤣😂😂

    Purify🗣 (@Purify_toast17) Tweeted:
    Headline: WV official who called Michelle Obama an ape in heels was convicted of defrauding FEMA.

    Us: Wont he do it?

    https://t.co/Qwx5LUvvs4 https://twitter.com/Purify_toast17/status/1096216472337240065?s=17

  57. 57
    rikyrah says:

    @Matt McIrvin:
    While disheartening, I am glad to see the pushback. The challenging of it.

  58. 58
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Where did all those 90s rollerblades end up? Nairobi

    “It’s perceived as a young person’s sport – older guys tend to see it as risky,” says Ayigah, a skater since 2007. Like most of his peers he’s self-taught, having learned via Google and YouTube videos. Along the way he has had to deal with injuries and arrests for breaking unspecified traffic laws – but shows no sign of stopping.

    He and his friends give many reasons for why they continue skating despite the perils: the adrenaline rush, income from skate lessons and the chance to meet girls. But one thing everyone agrees on is the sense of community the sport provides.

    “You can meet up to 20 guys in a day,” says Ayigah. “You exchange contacts and it grows into something else. It’s a uniting sport.”

    He adds: “In skating we don’t have the ethnic groups. In almost every clique you find guys from different tribes.” In a country where tribal ties affect all facets of life, from business to politics, and can even lead to violence, the pluralism of inline skating is unique.

    It is still a male-dominated pursuit, however. Among a group of four freestyle skaters out on a Sunday afternoon in the central business district, 20-year-old Angela Martha is the only female. “Yeah, it’s mainly guys out there,” says Martha. “But in this generation girls are growing as skaters. It’s more about how you skate than who you are.”

  59. 59
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    I think he’s definitely running, but there’s a lot of ways it could work out. This is very different for him than 2016. It’s much more competitive. You already hear way less about him than in ’16.

    They’ll be dividing small dollar donors 5,6,7 ways instead of 2, for one thing. He has a legit competitor just in his lane as far as caucuses- Elizabeth Warren and that’s without Sherrod Brown, who will also be in his lane if he runs. Three people in that lane could mean none of them win and Bernie comes out with a reduced stature than he has now.

    In a way he shouldn’t run. As it is now he lost a primary as one of two. He could now lose a primary as one of 10, which is a reduction in stature and influence.

    The supporters of the Left wing of the Democratic Party are going to face the same strategic decisions that the supporters of the middle lane always has- they’re going to have to play as a team within their lane or they could all end up losing.

  60. 60
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Got out my morning med dispenser and found yesterday morning’s dose still sitting there. Hm. I am not dead yet, so no harm, no foul?

    I find that waaaaaaay too often. To solve the problem I decided that I would take mine when I give the Woofmeister his. Guess what?

    I still forget.

  61. 61
    Baud says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Makes me glad I’m no longer in Twitter.

    The disturbing thing is that people who I know are real, people who I’ve met in real life, sometimes get pulled into it.

    People fooled themselves to think it was only about Hillary.

  62. 62
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: If he has more smarts than ego, he won’t run. I think he’ll run.

  63. 63
    Sab says:

    Tim Ryan is thinking of running for president. Sigh.

  64. 64
    Baud says:

    @Sab:

    WHAT PART OF “20-CANDIDATE DEBATE” IS CONFUSING TO YOU???

  65. 65
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @JPL:

    Thank you! It will be fun. As I said last night, I don’t gamble and I don’t go to shows, but I like Las Vegas. Great restaurants and lots of nature nearby.

  66. 66
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    My speculative theory is that he’s trying furiously to get AOC to endorse him on Day 1, and he hasn’t been successful yet, which is why he hasn’t announced.

  67. 67
    rikyrah says:

    @Matt McIrvin:
    Also, folks are bringing receipts. 👏👏

  68. 68
    zhena gogolia says:

    @rikyrah:

    What is ADOS? All I’m getting is something about autism.

  69. 69
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: I hope they are the long-ass CVS-type of receipts.

  70. 70
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @rikyrah: My google finds nothing on this.

  71. 71
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @zhena gogolia: “American Descendants of Slavery”, IIUC. B/c yanno, Kamala ain’t that. As if there were no slavery in Jamaica, sigh. As if a person of African descent is treated as other than black in America. Sigh.

    ETA: Oh sorry, I see rikyrah already answered above.

  72. 72
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @rikyrah:

    Thank you!

    Bro’ Man having an existential crisis on another flight leaving about now. American is offering $1,000 for two people to wait and go on a later flight. He says he can’t talk his husband into letting the kids go on ahead. //

  73. 73
    Luthe says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I still have mine. One day I will live somewhere flat enough to use them (I am terrified of inclines).

  74. 74
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    Okay, takeoff in a minute. Back with the sky-high wi-fi soon.

  75. 75
    Luthe says:

    @rikyrah: I have bad news for those ADOS folks about a guy named Barack Obama…

  76. 76
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Every single Democratic candidate who announces immediately gets this enormous “left” hate pile-on, and the justification is always different but the behavior is the same. It’s like a different universe from the rest of political discourse. The disturbing thing is that people who I know are real, people who I’ve met in real life, sometimes get pulled into it.

    Well, the truth is that probably a lot, even most, of those people are real. I have a sister who has been pushing Tulsi Gabbard since the 2016 election ended and has “corporatist” as a significant part of her political lexicon.

    The simple fact is people have preferences and a lot of people who want to get Trump out of office will nevertheless have disagreements with certain candidates. Some may be trolls. Many more are likely people arguing in good faith and have sincerely held concerns; these people may or may not be misinformed and may or may not make good arguments.

    I see an impulse among some people to invoke a Democratic version of the Republican 11th Commandment (thou shalt not speak ill of a fellow Republican). This is not constructive. When we do this people who are educable are not educated. Further, when legitimate concerns are raised then brushed aside, this gives credence to a “both sides” narrative and gives the impression to people arguing in good faith that even good faith arguments won’t be taken seriously.

    So let’s educate ourselves on our preferred candidates’ perceived flaws, find the criticisms with merit, be ready to concisely debunk the ones with none, and identify people making bad arguments in good faith. I explained to my sister why her preferred shorthand terms like “corporatist” don’t explain things to people who don’t follow politics and push away people who do but are put off by such shorthand because it can be used as an epithet to brush aside a productive career with a buzzword that you think encapsulates all the problems in our democracy.

    She dropped the word from what I’ve seen. I’ve yet to engage her on Tulsi Gabbard.

  77. 77
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    Ha! Maybe. People forget but the Bernie wing of the Party was the Elizabeth Warren wing of the Party from 2013 to 2016. I went to a Daily Kos convention in ’14 or ’15 where they had this whole organized faction promoting Warren for President. I don’t know what the Bernie overlap is there but it’s safe to say there’s some.

    What if Warren (or even Brown) become the more electable or popular in that lane? Do the Bernistas stick with Bernie and definitely lose or join the bigger liberal wing and maybe lose? Can they function as an actual wing?

  78. 78

    @OzarkHillbilly: The only pill I worry about is the blood thinner. The funny thing is I had the dispenser on my desk but put it away without taking the pill. That takes some real effort. One of the nurses in rehab said she put her pills by her toothbrush.

  79. 79
    bemused says:

    @rikyrah:

    Rabid Magas are people to stay well clear of not just due to their racism and all their intolerances. Most of them, imo, are also crooks and scammers. Corruption comes with the territory and best to hang on to your wallet when around them.

  80. 80
    Amir Khalid says:

    The good thing about a debate between Democratic candidates is that it will be substantive because Democratic voters quite rightly expect to see substance. The bad thing is that it will be substantive; American political media don’t like substance, it makes their heads hurt.

  81. 81
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): I haven’t been in years, but that’s what I like about Vegas too. The food and booze are (or at least were) reasonably priced because they’re luring people in to lose their shirts at the casino. I am immune to that siren song, so I just enjoyed the cheap booze and food and hiked around the parks.

  82. 82
    White & Gold Purgatorian says:

    A little good news for Alabama Democrats. Yesterday the DNC Credentials committee voted to force a new election for Chair and Vice Chair of the state party, within 90 days.

    Election challenge upheld.

    This is long overdue. The state party meetings have been run in a sloppily undemocratic fashion for decades and hopefully the DNC supervision of this new election will also result in bylaws changes to correct some of those problems. Elections are too important to have the Alabama Democratic Party remain the private sandbox of a handful.

    Senator Doug Jones gave a fiery defense of the challenge at the hearing yesterday. Among other things he said the party was at ”rock bottom.” We can only hope. In the past, ADP leadership has always found a way to sink ever lower. Lengthy video at this Facebook link. Doug Jones’ 5 minute speech starts at about 6 minutes.

  83. 83
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    I have a sister who has been pushing Tulsi Gabbard since the 2016 election ended and has “corporatist” as a significant part of her political lexicon.

    To my mind there’s really only one question someone like your sister [and more generally, anybody who attacks Democratic candidates] needs to answer: “in November 2020, are you going to pull the lever for the Democratic slate, and will you advocate for those candidates, regardless of who they are, once they’re selected?”

    If the answer isn’t “duh, I’m not an idiot; I might not like X (e.g. Harris) but she’s definitely better than any Republican!” If the answer is some sort of mush, or even worse, the sort of “if they don’t appeal to me, I won’t vote for ’em”, then ….. well, that’s as bad as voting for a GrOPer in my book.

  84. 84
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    “American Descendants of Slavery”, IIUC. B/c yanno, Kamala ain’t that. As if there were no slavery in Jamaica, sigh. As if a person of African descent is treated as other than black in America. Sigh.

    This reminds me of a friend quoting Kanye when Kanye was at his peak Trumpism about 400 years of slavery. But the first slaves in what would become the US weren’t here until the 1600s, so really the 400 years of slavery continues to this day. And Democrats’ preferred social programs are that slavery.

    The first thing that jumped out to me, and you may have already caught this, was that the African slave trade began way before the first settlements in what would become the US.

  85. 85
    Baud says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Agreed. We have a lot of good candidates which means that picking a favorite in the primary often turns on picayune distinctions. The general election is a whole other matter.

  86. 86
    JPL says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): and hopefully plenty of sunshine.

  87. 87
    White & Gold Purgatorian says:

    @White & Gold Purgatorian: Also, I don’t know the person who was chairing the Credentials committee during this hearing, but she did a darned good job of keeping control of her meeting. Appears to be fairly young. Makes me optimistic for the future.

  88. 88
    Leto says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m grateful that Avalune and my parents set up so many timers that all chime off at the same time (set on their phones and loud) so we don’t forget. I also take less meds now than I once did, so happy about that. Though, per my hemo doctor, I’ll probably be on my blood thinner until next October.

    Today’s schedule is a follow up with the surgeon who did my gall bladder removal surgery in January, followed by Avalune and I going to the movies and seeing Alita: Battle Angel. I’m really starting to dig seeing movies in the morning/early afternoon on a weekday because it’s a deserted theater which means it’s easier for me to get around. :)

  89. 89
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Baud: When Gabbard [spit] declared, there was a discussion over at LG&M about whether one could vote for her if she were the nominee. I think the commenters who chimed in were “yeah, I’d grimace, but yeah, obviously I’d vote for her”. Which is saying something, b/c damn, she’s pretty awful. Just ….. not as shitty as a GrOPer.

  90. 90
    germy says:

    I knew Sessions was a racist bigot, but I didn’t know he was such an… old school… bigot.

    I mean, hating on the Irish? That’s some serious old school bigotry.

  91. 91
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Kay: Sanders’ fanatics are still fanatics, but the difference is that I don’t see nearly as much interest in him from people who just want the Democratic Party to be more progressive.

    I remember it the same way you do: the original core of the Bernie movement was the Draft Warren movement renamed, once it became clear enough that Warren wasn’t running. What has Bernie got if Warren is running? The Bernie-or-Busters, sure, but they’re a *small* crowd. And I guess they can try to tear everyone else down on Twitter.

    One difference between them is that Warren will probably drop out if it becomes clear she isn’t going to win the nomination, but Bernie won’t. So he might pick up some of her supporters again if that happens.

  92. 92
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Ezra Pound is holding for you on the Far-Right-White Discourtesy Phone:

    ANCIENT MUSIC

    Winter is icummen in,
    Lhude sing Goddamm.
    Raineth drop and staineth slop,
    And how the wind doth ramm!
    Sing: Goddamm.

    Skiddeth bus and sloppeth us,
    An ague hath my ham.
    Freezeth river, turneth liver,
    Damn you, sing: Goddamm.

    Goddamm, Goddamm, ’tis why I am, Goddamm,
    So ‘gainst the winter’s balm.

    Sing goddamm, damm, sing Goddamm.
    Sing goddamm, sing goddamm, DAMM.

  93. 93

    @Amir Khalid: It’s hard for a debate to be substantive when there’s 10 people on stage. I gather that later debates will allow fewer candidates. Also we need good moderators.

  94. 94
    Kay says:

    @Baud:

    I feel like I already know the answer to my rhetorical question. I don’t think they can function as real wing in a Presidential primary contest with more than 2 candidates because I think “oppose” is central to their identity. Which could take out that whole lane, and leave them with Harris, Booker, or Klobuchar, any of those they won’t support in the general because they’ll be too mad and saying “I can’t be asked to support the lesser of two evils!”

  95. 95

    I hardly ever see a rose in my twitter feed. Blue waves, yes. Roses, no. It’s better that way.

  96. 96
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    If the answer isn’t “duh, I’m not an idiot; I might not like X (e.g. Harris) but she’s definitely better than any Republican!” If the answer is some sort of mush, or even worse, the sort of “if they don’t appeal to me, I won’t vote for ’em”, then ….. well, that’s as bad as voting for a GrOPer in my book.

    No, I would say giving up on such people and treating them with contempt, an act that would push them further toward 3rd parties or not voting, is every bit as bad as their waffling over support for the ultimate D nominee.

    Ask questions, make them think about their opinions. If you find someone whose heart is mostly in the right place but may have some wrong-headed ideas, don’t behave in a way that will harden them against your position. If you take someone seriously, even if they don’t immediately come around to your position, they will appreciate being engaged like a thinking human being and will have a better informed thought process when they think it through later.

    In fact, even take bad ideas seriously, just so have a clear way to explain why they’re wrong. When I didn’t want to vote for John Kerry in 2004, I came up with what I called the Missouri test. I feel safe not voting for Kerry because I’m in safe blue Massachusetts, but if I were in a swingable state like Missouri, I would vote for Kerry to stop Bush from being reelected. My sister described basically the same thought process telling me why she voted for Jill Stein in 2016.

    I pointed out that Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania were supposedly safe. Message received.

    ETA: Teach those who would learn, please, for all our sakes.

  97. 97
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    That’s my feeling as well. Historically, I feel like the left really resents having to work with other factions of the Democratic coalition. Maybe that’s a universal feeling, but the left seems more vocal about it.

  98. 98
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Luthe: I think part of it is, in fact, to claim that Obama turned out to be a bad President and that had something to do with it.

  99. 99
    Kay says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    “Centrist” Democratic voters have their own problems. We focus a lot here on the sexism and racism among the Bernistas but there’s a lot of sexism and racism among the loyal Democratic rank and file and they’re feeling left out.

    I had an older gentleman turn to me at a county meeting and say “can we have a MAN this time?” in this incredibly whiny tone that I felt came from the core of his being. I just stared at him, like “don’t hold back, bud, just get THAT right out in the open”

    We’ll have disgruntled centrists to deal with too, and there are more of them.

  100. 100
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Baud: The left says the same thing about the rest of the party: one of the things that finally led me to unfollow one of them was his claim that “liberals hate progressives more than fascists”. He posted the statement with that ’80s pink animated text generator meme so that it made it true.

  101. 101
    Luthe says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I put my pills next to the tea kettle. As I have a cuppa nearly every day, it guarantees I take the pills with the tea.

  102. 102
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Kay: Oh, there’s one of those guys I follow on the slowly-dying Google+ and sometimes he drives me up the wall as much as the Bernistas do. I’m pretty sure Joe Biden is his guy. He’s the kind of old white guy Democrat who idolizes centrist straight-shooters like John McCain–called me the “loony left” for impugning McCain’s honor a few times, quotes never-Trumper Republicans a lot. Insists that the Democrats have to nominate a white man in 2020 because, you know, it’s not that he wants that, it’s that the country is just too sexist and racist to elect anyone else and beating Trump is too important to risk it. Spends a lot of time railing against California high-speed rail and saying that #MeToo is a witch hunt. Hates Trump with a burning fury, though…

  103. 103
    Baud says:

    @Kay:

    The difference with centrists is that we have always recognized that they are scummy. Treating the left that way is true.

    @Matt McIrvin:

    liberals hate progressives more than when they enable fascists”

    This is more accurate.

  104. 104
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    Teach those who would learn, please, for all our sakes.

    Uh, not to be pejorative, but you’re really saying “teach those who failed their high school Civics class”. I’m glad there are those who take up that task, but I’m not really up to it. Then of course there are those who actually passed all those classes, and *still* can’t be bothered to do the math.

    I’m glad that others are willing to engage with these people. Maybe some of them are persuadable. I have a very low tolerance for imbeciles these days.

    ETA: Why “failed high school civics”? B/c anybody who can’t see that the fucker is a fascist, clearly isn’t the sharpest knife in the drawer.

  105. 105
    Sab says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: That’s wonderful. I’d never seen it before.

  106. 106
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Uh, not to be pejorative, but you’re really saying “teach those who failed their high school Civics class”.

    Last I checked, high school civics taught us about the structure and history of our government, not what opinions to hold.

  107. 107
    Baud says:

    @Baud:

    Treating the left that way is true.

    True= new

    I have fat thumbs today.

  108. 108
    Immanentize says:

    @Kay:

    Do the Bernistas stick with Bernie and definitely lose or join the bigger liberal wing and maybe lose? Can they function as an actual wing?

    If they (as a cohort) were smart, they would quickly dump Bernie for Warren to prove that they are in fact a bona fide wing of the Democratic Party, not just Larouchers (may he rest in peace) who are members of a personality cult. It would bring the leftier ideas a lot more power in the party structure. Hanging on to Bernie will, I think, actually undermine the socialist Overton and it’s effectiveness in moving the Party and the country.

    But that would require both tactical and long term strategic thinking.

  109. 109
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    The only pill I worry about is the blood thinner.

    Which one do you take? I’ve been on xarelto for years and thru several surgeries. Stopping for a few days hasn’t resulted in any blood clots.

  110. 110
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas: Fair enough, I should have added “high school American History”, I guess. Notwithstanding, anybody who came out of high school not understanding that Nazis are bad, fascists are bad, and able to compute that Shitler is a fascist …. well, I don’t have a lot of sympathy for them. I guess I’m glad others do.

  111. 111
    debbie says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi):

    Enjoy the warm weather and the kids!

  112. 112
    Immanentize says:

    @germy: He wasn’t exactly hating on the Irish -+ he was just fondly remembering a time when the Irish filled the vast majority of police positions. In Boston that was like 10 years ago….

  113. 113
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    not what opinions to hold.

    That Shitler is a fascist, and that fascists are objectively bad …. these statements aren’t “opinions” — they’re facts. And in high school, when I was taught about WWII and the runup to it, it was made quite clear that fascists were evil. The Big Lie was discussed in detail. And this, in Weatherford TX, not a bastion of educational excellence by any measure.

  114. 114
    Sab says:

    @Kay: So that explains Tim Ryan

  115. 115
    Ramalama says:

    @rikyrah: Is there any reporting about why Jill Stein was in Russia and sitting at the same table as Putin, Michael Flynn, and some other supposedly random people? I don’t get that.

  116. 116
    rikyrah says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi):

    Thank you! It will be fun. As I said last night, I don’t gamble and I don’t go to shows, but I like Las Vegas. Great restaurants and lots of nature nearby.

    Ok, I can go along with the no gambling. I don’t spend a dime in the casinos..

    but, NO SHOWS?

    There are some great shows in Vegas.

    The shows…the people watching…the food…If you go when it’s not really hot…Vegas is a good vacation spot. Hopefully, you’ve already done the Hoover Dam tour-which I suggest to anyone going to Vegas.

  117. 117
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Immanentize & @Kay: Anecdata: my husband was/is a Bernie admirer, voted for him in the 2016 primary (and Clinton in the general since I didn’t marry a fool), and he says he’ll vote for Warren in the primary this time regardless of whether Bernie is in the race or not. He (rightly) believes Warren’s ideas to address wealth inequality are more fully baked.

  118. 118
    debbie says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    I’m on Warfarin and have forgotten or neglected to take it a few times during the 21 years I’ve been on it. Not dead yet.

  119. 119
    cliosfanboy says:

    @rikyrah: AMEN!!!!!!

  120. 120
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Immanentize: For the record, no one I know who supported Bernie in 2016, myself included, is particularly enthused about voting for him this go around.

    Only about half of them showed up to vote in the primaries or were even registered to vote. This was rectified by the time the midterms came around. People, even Bernie supporters, understand the stakes.

    Also, too, maybe stop treating people you disagree with like inherent ignoramuses.

  121. 121

    @OzarkHillbilly: Brilinta, which must be made of gold given how much it costs. My cardiologist won’t substitute something else either, even though my insurance company keeps suggesting it.

  122. 122
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @MomSense:

    Okay, I’m live on the sky-high wi-fi.

    They do love Uncle Steep, so I’ve got that going for me. When I come over M. always gives me his current model truck to inspect and run around the coffee table a few times. V. wants to watch Masha and the Bear, which is actually pretty good.

  123. 123
    debbie says:

    Does anyone know who originated the acronym ADOS?

  124. 124
    Immanentize says:

    @Uncle Cosmo:
    I’m sorry you posted that because I am rather fond of the original “Cuckoo Song” (or “Sumer is icumen in”)

    Buluck sterteth,
    Bucke verteth,
    Murie, sing Cuckoo

  125. 125
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: I like, thanx.

  126. 126

    @rikyrah: I’ve never been to Vegas, but it looks like Disneyland for adults.

  127. 127
    Immanentize says:

    @Betty Cracker: That is how it should go. Good on him.

  128. 128
    chopper says:

    @Baud:

    what about baud, the candidate with 20 distinct personalities? do you get a whole debate to yourself yourselves?

  129. 129
    Immanentize says:

    @Kraux Pas: I do worry about the angry caucus takeovers. That behavior was 100% out of the Larouche or Paulist playbook. It is the big reason I am really opposed to caucuses now

  130. 130
    Leto says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I take Eliquis. I also think it’s made out of gold given the cost. I’m having my IVC filter removed next Thursday so I’ll stop taking the med a few days before.

  131. 131
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: It’s easier to flog a purity pony if you have one.

  132. 132
    Immanentize says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): my son was that truck boy too. I like to say that the Immp’s vocabulary arc was:
    1) Truck
    2) Turtle
    3) That’s not fair!

  133. 133
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    That Shitler is a fascist, and that fascists are objectively bad …. these statements aren’t “opinions” — they’re facts.

    These are not within the scope of civics.

    The first may be a fact but, since you can never truly know what is in a person’s heart, it’s arguable and therefore not quite truly a fact. This is what I mean about the weakness of shorthand epithets. They may make you feel good to curse an out-group, but provide little information. “Trump DID this, Trump DID that”: Those would be facts. Feel free to make your opinion known about those facts once filled in.

    The second bit, if you don’t think it’s an opinion, ask a fascist. Your opinion is one well within the majority consensus and one I agree with. It still remains an opinion.

    And in high school, when I was taught about WWII and the runup to it, it was made quite clear that fascists were evil.

    This is history, not civics. Related disciplines, but not the same.

  134. 134
    debbie says:

    Last night, Colbert pointed to Trump’s statement yesterday that the Wall would be harder to climb over than Mt. Everest. If that doesn’t show his base what a total idiot he is, nothing will.

  135. 135
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    This is history, not civics.

    Yep, as I wrote above

    Fair enough, I should have added “high school American History”, I guess.

  136. 136
    satby says:

    @germy: my ex-father in law hated on the Irish. He introduced my infant son (at the time his only grandchild) to his sister by holding the baby out to her and saying “look at this little Irish SOB, can you believe this is my grandson?” .
    He survived only because my ex grabbed me before I could go for him.

    Also used to hear anti-Irish comments in the Beverly neighborhood when I was growing up as it changed from very WASPy to Irish, and later integrated. That was around the JFK candidacy, and it was very mixed with anti-Catholic sentiments. But it was not uncommon as I was growing up.

  137. 137
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    My middle son is a low info voter – I don’t mean this in a nasty way, he has other interests than politics (which is fine) and he voted for Bernie in the Ohio primary and then make a big show out of not wanting to vote for Clinton -although he did- it was absentee and he did it at my kitchen table with me literally lobbying him shamelessly the whole time so I know he voted for her. He’s already asked me if Bernie’s running again. So I think there’s that group- the group where name recognition matters a lot. But Bernie has to get there first, and unlike last time now he has real competition in the pre-primary.

    My daughter used to be a low info voter but is not now and she voted for Sanders in the PA primary and is now backing Harris. She’ll be voting in NY this time because she and her husband took jobs there and are relocating the last week in February.

  138. 138
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    ask a fascist

    I wouldn’t ask a white supremacist for their views on people of color. I wouldn’t ask a misogynist for their views on women’s rights. Why would I care what a fascist thinks? Why would anyone (other than fascists)?

    Look: I can see that you’re trying to stand in a position where you can reach out to people who are convincable. And that’s great. But my belief is, people who have views like “oh, if the candidate doesn’t line up with my views, I won’t vote for them, even if it means Trump wins” …. well, those people are guilty of either mental, or moral defect. Maybe both, but one or the other. B/c they’re not “low information” voters — they’ve got their information, and made their morally reprehensible choice.

    ETA: in 2016, it was almost understandable, b/c a lot of folks thought Hillary had it in the bag. But in 2020, it wil lnot be accepable. B/c we now know the cost of such self-centered squalid thinking.

  139. 139
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yeah, and there are great, inexpensive restaurants all over town because of the depth of talent in the industry. Hell, even the “bar food” places are often really good.

    I need to submit my pictures from Mount Charleston last September to “On the Road.”

  140. 140
    Elizabelle says:

    @rikyrah: Whoa, that’s fascinating. Thank you for the head’s up on ADOS.

    I think they’re stirring the pot in Virginia too.

  141. 141
    geg6 says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    Last I checked, high school civics taught us about the structure and history of our government, not what opinions to hold.

    Bullshit. I had civics in high school and it was a propaganda fest. It taught us about the three branches of government and the virtues of citizenship, which is the part that was totally full of exhortations to patriotism and exceptionalism. And that was back in the 70s when they actually had civics as a part of the curriculum. For kids today, few of them are required to take a civics class. Many, many schools have scrapped it. It was taking too much time from test prep and STEM, which are the only things on earth that matter.

  142. 142
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: I started off on the rat poison but was switched to xarelto because I was really bad about coming in for the 3 month blood check.

  143. 143
    Elizabelle says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): Enjoy!

    I like Vegas a lot, for the reasons you and Betty Cracker discuss. I’m not a casinos person either. Love the artificiality, the desert setting, and still have to see the Neon Museum.

  144. 144
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I don’t know that one. Xarelto ain’t cheap either. $500 a month w/o insurance, $75 a month with the plan I have now.

  145. 145
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Fair enough, I should have added “high school American History”, I guess.

    I managed to miss that one, I tend to scroll from the bottom-up on long threads.

    Still, no amount of education, even if you learn all the facts and the context well, can take away people’s faculties for forming their own opinions.

    And I’m not ready to write off people who failed to show up for Hillary Clinton in 2016 as akin to fascists. Some have undoubtedly seen their error, others may still be reachable. Elections turn on close margins, we can’t afford to push people away.

  146. 146
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @JPL:

    Well, this is the “rainy season,” so we might get a little. But it all comes down in 15 minutes and then the sun comes out again. Plus you can see it advancing in a sheet from the mountains. “It’s going to be here in 20 minutes, it’s not quite here, okay, now.”

  147. 147
    geg6 says:

    @satby:

    Gotta agree. There was plenty of Irish and/or Catholic prejudice when I was young. My mom could have told you stories even worse about how awful it was to be German/Irish back in the 20s and 30s.

  148. 148
    Kraux Pas says:

    @geg6:

    Bullshit. I had civics in high school and it was a propaganda fest.

    Well, it sounds like you didn’t take the same civics course I did.

    And that was back in the 70s

    Oh, definitely not.

  149. 149
    Sab says:

    @Kay: I really liked Clinton, and I have liked Elizabeth Warren for years. I do think older, woman and serious are a toxic combination for a lot of voters.

  150. 150
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    And I’m not ready to write off people who failed to show up for Hillary Clinton in 2016 as akin to fascists.

    Yep yep, as I wrote just above, I’m not doing that. While unforunate, somebody who didn’t vote for either Hillary or Trump in 2016, well, I pity them, and wish they’d done otherwise, but I’m not gonna put ’em down on the list of unpardonable sinners. [Anybody who voted for Shitler …. well, they blotted their copybook, and can go socialize with Cletus and his inbred brothers.] I was making forward-looking statements about 2020: somebody who, in 2020, can’t be bothered to vote Dem, obviously needs to move to fucking Russia.

  151. 151
    Chyron HR says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    And I’m not ready to write off people who failed to show up for Hillary Clinton in 2016 as akin to fascists.

    Yeah, I’ll bet.

  152. 152
    geg6 says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi):

    Have fun!

    I hate Vegas with the heat of a thousand suns, but I know plenty of people who love it. Myself, if I never step foot in that city again, it will be too soon. There’s plenty of good food in non-amusement park cities.

  153. 153
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Immanentize: My nephew had a hard time pronouncing the “tr”. Imagine the look on people’s faces at the store when he said, very loudly, “I wanna fuck, Mommy. I wanna fuck.”

  154. 154
    Betty Cracker says:

    @geg6: I graduated from high school in the 80s during the Reagan regime, and there was a mandatory class called “Americanism vs. Communism.” The texts contained a lot of excuse-making for US interference in Central America, IIRC. Our teacher was pretty good, though, especially considering the hick town and political milieu. I remember lively discussions!

  155. 155
    Kraux Pas says:

    For you folk on brand name medication; if you aren’t on Medicare, try searching for coupons that can be applied together with your insurance.

    The trick to this is when you search “Drug name coupon” you will get a bunch of results from different discount programs that won’t work with your insurance, similar to a AAA prescription discount.

    Look in the web address for either the name of the drug or the name of the manufacturer. These will be the ones you want.

  156. 156
    debbie says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    They’ve had me come in for the test every month all along. Now, it’s just a finger-stick kind of thing, so it’s not a big deal. Plus the insurance company pays all but $8.00 of the costs of the visits, providing this test is the point of the visit (some kind of chronic condition provision). It is. Finally, the insurer covers 100% of the drug, providing I stick to the generic. I do.

    At least until I don’t have insurance through work, it’s a pretty good deal.

  157. 157
    Kay says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    And I’m not ready to write off people who failed to show up for Hillary Clinton in 2016 as akin to fascists. Some have undoubtedly seen their error, others may still be reachable. Elections turn on close margins, we can’t afford to push people away.

    I don’t speak for them, but I think there are a substantial group of base Democrats who think they didn’t push back hard against the Left smearing Clinton, and they aren’t going to let that happen again. They feel like the Bernistas are hijacking their Party, and they aren’t going to remain silent in the hope they can “bring them in” again, because, true or not, they feel that approach didn’t “work” last time. Just like Lefties feel they are the “real” Democrats? So do rank and file team-playing Democrats. I think we’ll see that this time.

  158. 158
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @geg6:

    I hate Vegas with the heat of a thousand suns

    It is a massive, massive experiment in “what would happen if stupidity hurt”. Clearly there are some not-stupid people (who therefore don’t gamble) but since Vegas lives on gambling, the vast majority are stupid, and they’re being tortured for it.

  159. 159
    debbie says:

    @geg6:

    One branch of my family immigrated from Latvia. Checking census records, I found their nationality changed from German to Russian back to German, depending on which country was being demonized at the time.

  160. 160
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @debbie: I lived in Delaware in the mid 70s, and had Polish schoolmates. It wasn’t fun for them, for sure.

  161. 161
    germy says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Brilinta, which must be made of gold given how much it costs. My cardiologist won’t substitute something else either, even though my insurance company keeps suggesting it.

    I remember a few years back seeing a website where you could enter your doctor’s name and then see if he or her had taken donations from pharmaceutical companies. I remember checking my own doctor and seeing he’d attended a dinner hosted by one. I recall they actually calculated the cost of the dinner and applied that dollar amount to his name.

    I don’t have a link; it was a few years back and I don’t remember where I found it.

  162. 162
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @debbie:

    Thanks! I’m hoping to get their citified NoVA asses out into the desert to see what’s what.

  163. 163
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Chetan Murthy: I’ve had the misfortune to be required to go there a bunch of times for conferences and such. But as Steep points out, interesting nature is not far (I have a weird fascination with Death Valley) and there’s a lot of good food if you make a little effort. No, I do not gamble.

  164. 164
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Immanentize: Right, and the Irish FBI agents in Boston were exemplars of rectitude.

  165. 165
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    You people with your memories of classes you took in high school. The only things I remember are Mrs Luco (Loco Luco), the smoking area and a lot of the drugs done there.

  166. 166
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Kay:

    Just like Lefties feel they are the “real” Democrats? So do rank and file team-playing Democrats. I think we’ll see that this time.

    Well, there are people in both groups who are capable of intellectual dishonesty and being straight up dicks.

    We need each other. We should engage good faith disagreements and legitimate criticisms of our preferred candidates, if for no other reason that it will help maintain morale and approval for who(m*)ever gets the nomination.

    *Side note: Can anyone here help me here? This has been bugging me for a while. When the object in one clause is the subject of its own clause, should I use the subjective or objective pronoun?

  167. 167
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    No, I do not gamble.

    *grin* You’re not their target market, ha! I had to go for a work conference one time, and boy, it was depressing. Those acres of slot machines I had to walk past to get to the conference pavilion every day, were just depressing as hell. All those people just sitting in front of the machines, pouring their savings into those gaping maws …… yeah, I don’t gamble either. Find it hard to understand why anybody would, when the math is so obvious. I get games of skill (like poker) but the ones where the house fixes the odds? Why *bother*?

  168. 168
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: Well said, Kay.

  169. 169
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kraux Pas: I don’t think they’re akin to fascists, but I don’t regard them as just folks who happen to have a different opinion either. I believe they have a fundamentally misguided notion of what voting is and how it works in a two-party system.

    When I was younger and more naive, I thought my vote was a mode of self-expression. I didn’t think of it explicitly in those terms, but if I’m honest now, that’s how I exercised it.

    I learned the hard way in 2000 that thinking of the franchise that way had far more dire implications than I ever imagined. I’m a little less sympathetic to people who thought of their vote that way in 2016 (only 16 years after the Bush II debacle) and even less for folks who still treat it that way now. It’s impossible not to understand the stakes today.

  170. 170
    Chetan Murthy says:

    [deleted]

  171. 171
    germy says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    You people with your memories of classes you took in high school. The only things I remember are Mrs Luco (Loco Luco), the smoking area and a lot of the drugs done there.

    The only thing I remember from my elementary school history class’s coverage of the Civil War is

    Carpet baggers

    Carpet Baggers!

    CARPET BAGGERS!!!!

    As a ten year old, I remember thinking it must have been a major part of that era, if they focused so much attention on it. Looking back now, I assume the textbooks were probably written somewhere down south.

  172. 172
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie:

    They’ve had me come in for the test every month all along. Now, it’s just a finger-stick kind of thing, so it’s not a big deal.

    Now you see, that is where you and I differ. Going to the Doctor for any reason is a pain in the ass because it blows a huge hole in my day. I’m not big on vet appts for the dogs or getting my haircut either. The only thing I hate more than haircuts is excessively long hair.

  173. 173
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @debbie: Since western Ukraine was part of the Austro-Hungarian empire in the late 19th and early 20th C, Canada considered the Ukrainian immigrants living in its western plains to be German and sent them to internment camps in WWI. They were, of course, not German, and were completely apolitical farmers.

  174. 174
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Can you concretize with an example (it’s OK if it’s grammatically incorrect)?

    It will help maintain morale and approval for who(m*)ever gets the nomination.

    Approval for her.
    She gets the nomination.

    I can try to come up with a new one if the who/whom makes it weird.

  175. 175
    Kay says:

    @Sab:

    We never really got to the sexism among rank and file “centrist” Democrats- the fabled lunch bucket crowd, but it was there. I heard absolutely vicious things just tossed off casually, like “of course you agree with me” and I’m a woman. God fucking knows what they were saying behind our backs. I think one of the things Bernie did was take attention away from what are intra-Party fissures that have always existed, and still exist. We’re all acting like Democrats are these great team players and so easy to unite, and they’re not. Those fissures will be back, because they never went away.

    It wasn’t that long ago that people openly questioned whether white Democrats would vote for Obama. That wasn’t ideological.

  176. 176
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    it will help maintain morale and approval for who(m*)ever gets the nomination.

    I think it’s “whoever”. the object of the prepositional phrase isn’t “who[m]ever” — it’s “whoever gets the nom”. At least, that’s how I remember it working.

  177. 177
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas: Sorry, I didn’t notice until after I asked, that you’d put the example in your comment.

  178. 178
    cliosfanboy says:

    @Kraux Pas: as a college prof who teaches the freshman survey, I am appalled at what my students do not know…. I end up teaching material to college students that I learned in junior high

  179. 179
    JoeyJoeJoe says:

    @rikyrah: there’s also a pinball museum just outside the city if that interests you, and the MGM grand has an interactive CSI game . Also check out the mob museum

  180. 180
    NotMax says:

    re: above

    For one year in public school, the social studies (history) department and classes were renamed to Citizenship Education, which struck me even when a callow youth as way to 1984-ish.

    @Gin & Tonic

    Never been, no desire to go. From what I’ve heard, munching down at some places is itself a gamble.

  181. 181
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @rikyrah:

    I did the Hoover Dam tour with a mime! Not that she was in character at the time. Ah, 1980s COMDEX . . .

    Every time I hear that Eagles song, “I want to sleep with you in the desert tonight, with a billion stars all around,” I think of her. Didn’t happen but came tantalizingly close.

    Driving back to Las Vegas at night from anywhere in the desert is amazing. You have all this thick, enveloping darkness and you can really see an amazing number of stars, and then you come over a rise and you’re blasted by the neon inferno of Vegas down in the bowl of the valley. Even better in a convertible or with an open moon roof.

  182. 182
    Kraux Pas says:

    @geg6:

    I hate Vegas with the heat of a thousand suns

    So, apparently, does the sun.

    @Chetan Murthy: Thank you. That sounds reasonable and I will assume that’s the rule going forward unless I find a credible reason to believe otherwise.

  183. 183
    bjacques says:

    “ADOS”? Like Clarence Thomas? Crikey.

  184. 184
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @rikyrah:

    You can do shows! I’ll even go with. It’s just not one of my priorities when I’m in Vegas.

  185. 185
    Chris Johnson says:

    @Betty Cracker: I voted for him in the Vermont primary and worked for him in New Hampshire (note: this is all quite early compared to the shitshow it all became) and gave him money repeatedly, in small donations that were all I could afford, and I’m voting Warren whether or not Bernie is running. He had my vote to keep him in the Senate: that’s enough. Warren is better. She DOES stuff and it’s intelligent, helpful stuff. If I could vote her in as a Vermont Senator in place of Bernie I would, but Massachusetts understandably ain’t giving her up ;)

    There isn’t a single other politician I’d say that about, but Warren has proven herself very well. CFPB. She’s hell on criminal bankers, which so many of ’em seem to happily be. I wanted her in the first place, and Bernie does in fact share the same passions and has even fiercer (and unvarying) rhetoric in a political landscape where people take Joe Biden seriously and think he’s nice Trans-Am Onion guy.

    If Bernie has lost me (other than happily keeping him in the Senate lest we get another wingnut or Trumpkin) then he should not run. I can’t be the only one who actually pays attention. He probably is looking for AOC’s endorsement, but she shouldn’t give it. We can do better.

  186. 186
    NotMax says:

    @Kraux Pas

    Can anyone here help me here?

    Sidestep it. “if for no other reason that it will help maintain morale and approval for the eventual nominee”

    ;)

  187. 187
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @germy:

    I assume the textbooks were probably written somewhere down south.

    It’s the Texas blockade, if Texas won’t buy them they don’t get printed.

    I do remember my first day of American History. The teacher said, “If you fail every test, quiz, and assignment you will still pass this class as long as you show up. I don’t care if you sleep thru all of them as long as you show up.” I skipped every class except for the test days and even then I got a B or an A. (I read a lot of history even then)

  188. 188
    Kay says:

    Aaron Blake
    ‏Verified account
    @AaronBlake
    24m24 minutes ago
    More
    Trump on executive orders in March 2016:
    “That wasn’t the way our founders thought that this country was going to win. … I’m going to make wonderful deals, but you have to do it the old-fashioned way like Ronald Reagan did with Tip O’Neill.”

    I understand why reporters do this- the truth is important- but when do they give up on acting as if there’s a real substantive ideology on the Right beyond “greed” and “what’s in my personal career interest”?

    They never meant it. They don’t mean any of it. They don’t have any bedrock. THIRTY YEARS of watching them blow up the deficit and we all still have to pretend it’s some one-off deviation. They don’t give a shit about separation of powers and they NEVER have. These are the people who promoted the “line item veto” and it doesn’t get more power-grabbing than that!

    Dick Cheney is an open proponent of almost unlimited executive power. That’s his fucking BRAND.

  189. 189
    opiejeanne says:

    @JoeyJoeJoe: There’s an indoor miniature golf course, owned by some of the members of KISS. That’s a fun if weird experience. Lots of fluorescent paintings of poor quality on the walls.

  190. 190
    Sab says:

    @Kay: My sister is an academic. She says the difference between student evaluations of older male and female professors is startling.

    Where you and I look at Hillary and see a Methodist grandmother, others see some old nag or battleaxe.

  191. 191
    Kraux Pas says:

    @NotMax: Thank you, this also works. Although I can’t go back and edit what I had already said while I’m speaking, so I’m happy to know the rule too. Still, you gave sage advice.

  192. 192
    StringOnAStick says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): Have you gone to the Red Rocks area near Las Vegas? Quite beautiful sandstone cliffs.

  193. 193
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Immanentize:

    Lately the taciturn M. has been saying “Oh, my gosh!” a lot. No one knows where he got it. And it’s just random, of course.

  194. 194
    opiejeanne says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: There were and still are two major school book purchasers: Texas and California. California will not buy the books that Texas wants, so it’s up to the districts/states to decide what they want the kids to learn in school.

  195. 195
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Sab:

    My sister is an academic. She says the difference between student evaluations of older male and female professors is startling.

    Most of my favorite teachers were older women. This is one of the primary things that draws me to Elizabeth Warren. She’s one of the best examples of one of my favorite archetypes.

    For the record, younger teachers I’ve had of both (all?) genders have tended to be pretty good, but most of the worst teachers I’ve had have been older men.

  196. 196
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    most of the worst teachers I’ve had have been older men.

    Oh god yes. Science and (esp) Bio teachers who were also coaches. Completely *useless* for actually teaching *shit*. Holy mackerel so awful.

  197. 197
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I still haven’t made it to the Neon Museum. Was going to do it back in September; I don’t know what happened. I don’t think it’s going to happen this weekend either.

  198. 198
    Cheryl from Maryland says:

    @Elizabelle: Go to the Neon Museum at night (check their website for times) or on a cloudy day to really enjoy the restored ones turned on. They also have various neon scattered around the city that are turned on at night, like the Silver Slipper. The museum has a map for those.

  199. 199
    Sab says:

    Does the water district in Las Vegas still have the Desert Demonstration Garden? That was kind of cool. It demonstrated traditional style gardens (Japanese, English country, formal French, etc.) in low water use desert conditions.

  200. 200
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi):

    Even better in a convertible or with an open moon roof.

    And acid, don’t forget the acid.

  201. 201
    NotMax says:

    On the vanishingly small chance the postal worker whose route includes this address is reading,

    1) Thank you for picking up the outgoing mail when I put the red flag on the mailbox up
    2) It would lead to happier, more fulfilled lives for the both of us if you would kindly put the flag down before moving on to the next house.

    Thank you in advance.

  202. 202
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Oh god yes. Science and (esp) Bio teachers who were also coaches. Completely *useless* for actually teaching *shit*. Holy mackerel so awful.

    The absolute worst teacher I ever had was an accounting teacher who, instead of covering any material that was useful for the class, lectured endlessly on his theories of economics. He made homework due at random times and days of the week without mentioning this in class. It was hell for anyone who had to, um, work at a job.

    He also had his belly hanging out the bulging buttons of his shirt and pronounced “specifically” as “pacifically.” He pacifically said this every 3rd sentence.

    I failed this class, literally told him off on the day of the final exam then complained to the Dean of the school of economics. The Dean managed the class herself next semester online. I got a B+. (I still failed to turn in quite all the homework)

  203. 203
    J R in WV says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Example: as I shared the other day, our nearest MAGA chud neighbor named his router “TrumpisyourPresident.” My husband is trying to talk me out of naming ours something insulting as a retort — he worries about starting feuds.

    Don’t be insulting… go large. Name your router “FBI Domestic Terrorism Investigative Unit DOJ14972

    Then just wait. Plus no one will ever attempt to log into that router, NO One.

  204. 204
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @geg6:

    Outside of mid-May to late September, the climate is great. This weekend: highs in the 50s and lows in the high 30s.

    I’m not trying to convert you, but I think a lot of people who hate Las Vegas had to go there on some convention or corporate trip, or they went there with some nitwit who forced them to do the cliché stuff. Just my theory.

  205. 205
    NotMax says:

    @Betty Cracker

    Offered ‘Trumpsux’ as a possibility the other day.

    Today, will put ‘My Neighbor Is An Ass’ on the virtual table as an alternative.

    ;)

  206. 206
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @opiejeanne: Here in Misery it’s whatever they teach in Texas.

  207. 207
    White & Gold Purgatorian says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    Last I checked, high school civics taught us about the structure and history of our government, not what opinions to hold.

    Sometime within the past year, I heard from a local teacher that public schools were going to start teaching civics again. My jaw dropped. Don’t know when they stopped, but the absence of a civics course sheds some light on why Alabama government is so messed up on all levels.

  208. 208
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    The easy answer is, “Is there a verb attached?” In your example it would be “whoever gets the nomination,” but it would be “whomever the electorate likes.” Verb with the wh* party, it’s who. No verb with the wh* party, it’s whom.

    ETA: And I’m doing this on an airplane while drinking champagne. What an age we live in!

  209. 209
    NotMax says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi)

    Pre-noon champagne? Livin’ large, dude!

    :)

  210. 210
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @StringOnAStick: I’d be remiss if I didn’t also mention that there’s a ski area (yes, snow skiing) less than 45 minutes’ drive from the Strip.

  211. 211
    Kraux Pas says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): Thank you. This supports the answer that Chetan gave me; that it’s dependent on the clause that contains it, not the one it arose from.

  212. 212
    Kraux Pas says:

    @NotMax:

    Pre-noon champagne? Livin’ large, dude!

    I suppose this depends on where (s)he is flying.

    It’s 5 o clock somewhere.

  213. 213
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @StringOnAStick:

    I love Red Rocks! Also like getting out into the deep desert.

  214. 214
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    Okay, coming up on Minneapolis. Steep out for a while.

  215. 215
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Immanentize:

    If they (as a cohort) were smart

    Narrator: They’re not smart.

  216. 216
    J R in WV says:

    @satby:

    Also used to hear anti-Irish comments in the Beverly neighborhood when I was growing up as it changed from very WASPy to Irish, and later integrated. That was around the JFK candidacy, and it was very mixed with anti-Catholic sentiments. But it was not uncommon as I was growing up.

    My 7th grade Jr High science teacher, Mr Pugh, could not restrain his grin and happiness the day JFK was shot and they announced that school was ending early after the attack on our president. Mr. Pugh was so happy he grinned the rest of the class, although he knew better than to actually say a word. So he was silently grinning, that bigoted bastard.

    Pretty sure his hate was mostly for those Catholic furriners. An orange Irishman might have pleased him nearly as much as another KKKer.

  217. 217
    debbie says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I think they might have come in through Canada because they first popped up in records as living in Vermont. How they got from Vermont to Dayton, OH is a mystery to me.

  218. 218
    Sab says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): I used to live there and my dog had to have a treadmill for exercise in summer (100 degrees at 1 am.) But she loved Mt. Charleston in the spring and fall.

  219. 219
    NotMax says:

    @Sab

    100 degrees at 1 am

    “But it’s a dry heat.”

    :)

  220. 220
    J R in WV says:

    @NotMax:

    “But it’s a dry heat.”

    :)

    And of course, so is a blast furnace, or an annealing oven.

  221. 221
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @NotMax:

    In a perfect world, I would drink champagne every day. When I have to fly in the post-9/11 hellscape, and I’m flying first class (which I am), I say let the champers flow.

    Now sitting in Minneapolis waiting to board for Las Vegas.

  222. 222
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Sab:

    Yeah, that’s when you need the cabin up at Tahoe. Although every time my friend says that I always answer: “As long as you’re fantasizing, why not live at Tahoe all the time?” Problem solved. But maybe a little too much winter for some people.

  223. 223
    Sab says:

    @NotMax: Also a hot heat.

  224. 224
    Sab says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi): Are there jobs near Tahoe?

  225. 225
    NotMax says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi)

    Spent two years in the Twin Cities and will always retain a fondness for them. Embrace the Minnesota nice.

    The champagne serves a dual purpose, dependent on destination. Either as a celebration or as an anesthetic.

  226. 226
    Sab says:

    My dog was a german shepherd, and she never had much fur until I moved her to NE Ohio. No need to grow any in Vegas. She furred out into a proper german shedder once I got her around snow.

  227. 227
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Kraux Pas:

    I’m just a simple thawed-out caveman grammarian. I don’t understand your fancy linguistic flourishes. Also, I have been drinking champagne, which is much better than the shit we used to squeeze out of berries.

  228. 228
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @Sab:

    If you can afford to live at Tahoe, you’re not worried about a job.

  229. 229
    NotMax says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi)

    Am I misremembering (would be far from the first time) but isn’t there a Frederick’s of Hollywood museum in Vegas?

  230. 230
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    Okay, I’ve boarded for LAS.

    This thread looks like it’s winding down, so I just want to say thank you to all you jackals for keeping the whale-brain fueled with plankton. This is almost as good as being at home, except no housecat sideboard and I’m wearing pants.

  231. 231
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @NotMax:

    I think so, but not interested. But a Victoria’s Secret museum with a wing dedicated to Frederique van der Wal, now you’re talkin’.

  232. 232
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    I guess I’ll go upstairs and see what’s going on. But I still have to do the Sky magazine crossword.

    Hmm, my seatmate just ordered a mimosa. I like the cut of her jib.

  233. 233
  234. 234
    NotMax says:

    Necessary fix.

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi)

    Bettie Page wasn’t chopped liver.

    ;)

  235. 235
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    @NotMax:

    Bettie is great, but I don’t associate her with Frederick’s.

  236. 236
    Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi) says:

    Steep out until we get this magnificent beast airborne.

  237. 237
    NotMax says:

    @Steeplejack (sky-high wi-fi)

    Let’s just say she may not have been on the payroll but neither did she shop at EJ Korvette’s.

    :)

  238. 238
    brantl says:

    “We thought he was good to go all morning, and then suddenly it’s like everything is off the rails,” said one senior Republican aide…

    How is this different than EVERY other morning?

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