Bibi Netanyahu Calls for War or Combat Against Iran

The US held and participated in a summit in Warsaw today. It was originally supposed to be solely about Iran and held at the urging of Israel. Where you see Israel in that sentence, read Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin “Bibi” Netanyahu. The US’s allies, especially our EU and NATO allies, pushed back and made it clear they weren’t on board for an anti-Iran summit and they were still displeased that the US unilaterally pulled out of the JCPOA. Then Bibi decided to tweet and open his mouth.

This first tweet was deleted and replaced with the second one:

The Hebrew word for war is milchamah. The Hebrew word for combat is lichimah. For those non-Hebrew speakers/readers here, Hebrew is based around three letter roots. So milchamah and lichimah share the same three letter root of a lamed (l sound), chet (ch/guttral “h” sound), and mim (m sound). They’re obviously linguistically related and they’re not normally interchanged, though sometimes they are just as we will sometimes interchange war and combat. However, when we do this in English we almost always do it within the context of an actual war. And while I’ve never had this discussion with a native Hebrew speaker, I’d expect it would work the same way in Hebrew. The Israelis, as reported by Andrea Mitchell at MSNBC, are claiming this is a matter of a bad translation in the tweets. I find this hard to believe given that Netanyahu is a fluent English speaker as he lived in the US for a significant amount of time growing up. (Full disclosure: I used to be non-native fluent in Hebrew and non-native functional in Arabic. I have used neither language in a very long time and I’m lucky to be fluent in English on a good day!)

The problem here is that when Bibi made remarks tot he press he specifically used milchamah (war) in his spoken remarks to the press (emphasis mine):

Netanyahu made the comments during an off-the-cuff interview with reporters on a Warsaw street, shortly after meeting Oman’s foreign minister.

“From here I am going to a meeting with 60 foreign ministers and envoys of countries from around the world against Iran,” Netanyahu said.

“What is important about this meeting — and this meeting is not in secret, because there are many of those — is that this is an open meeting with representatives of leading Arab countries, that are sitting down together with Israel in order to advance the common interest of war with Iran,” he added.

Although Netanyahu used the Hebrew word “milchama,” or war, his office later changed its official translation and said he was referring to a “common interest of combatting Iran.”

He has long used tough language against Iran. But his latest comments, which appeared to include a call for war, went beyond his standard rhetoric. Netanyahu’s office later issued a clarification, saying his remarks had been mistranslated.

I don’t think this was an accident and I don’t buy the explanation of the walk back. I think Bibi knew exactly what he was doing. That during the week of the 40th anniversary of Iran’s Islamic revolution, he was attempting to create a provocation. His word choices and uses here, including the walk back, are a feint to see if he can draw Iran into doing something that can be declared to be offensive.

Bibi Netanyahu is very willing to actually fight a war against Iran until there are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, megalomaniacal monomania. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice as much American blood and treasure as necessary to achieve his goals against Iran and within the region. As are Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Muhammad bin Zayed of the United Arab Emirates to achieve theirs. Of course, other than destroying Iran, those regional objectives are at odds. The Israelis and the Saudis both seek to be the regional hegemon, which is one of the reasons that Iran must be destroyed because it also aspires to regional hegemony. As does Erdogan in Turkey.

The President’s point man on the Middle East is his son in law, who appears to be an asset of Netanyahu from long time familial connections, as well as bin Salman and bin Zayed.  Jared is an idiot from a family with a lot of money, money that was used to buy his educational credentials. Unfortunately he thinks he’s a world historic and world history making figure.

Also, Rudy Giuliani is at this summit because he’s a paid agent for the Mujahedin al Khalq (MEK), which positions itself as the legitimate government of Iran in exile. In reality it is a cult and a terrorist group.

No good will come of any of this.

Open thread.

ETA at 3:55 PM:

In case anyone, like the President, the Vice President, Congressman McCarthy, etc, was unclear, I’m Jewish and yes, I’m criticizing Israel’s prime minister and, at least, one of his and Israel’s current government’s policies. This is not anti-Semitic. If you think it is or that I am or are considering stating that I am, you can go fuck yourselves sideways with a hanukiah!






215 replies
  1. 1
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Somebody on Twitter said that when Bibi is speaking in Hebrew he’s telling the truth and when he’s speaking in English he’s lying. I know no Hebrew so I can’t judge.

  2. 2
    Emma says:

    There are days when staying in bed and ignoring the world should be mandatory.

  3. 3
    catclub says:

    Bibi Netanyahu is very willing to actually fight a war against Iran until there are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, megalomaniacal monomania. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice as much American blood and treasure as necessary to achieve his goals against Iran and within the region. As are Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia

    two nations with the same war anthem … Onward Christian Soldiers.

    it is always bad when Turkey is the responsible ally in the room.

  4. 4
    germy says:

    Bibi Netanyahu is very willing to actually fight a war against Iran until there are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, megalomaniacal monomania. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice as much American blood and treasure as necessary to achieve his goals against Iran and within the region.

    I don’t much about politics in Israel. I know there are many political parties there. I also know Bibi has his own problems with investigations and corruption (like Trump). Is there a chance a saner political party will win anytime soon over there?

  5. 5
    dmsilev says:

    No good will come of any of this.

    Perhaps if a loving God took pity on us via a well-aimed meteor?

  6. 6
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Gin & Tonic: He does do this. Which is interesting, because he claims the Palestinians do it. Which they do, but pot, kettle…

  7. 7
    Yutsano says:

    Does the original Hebrew tweet exist? I could ask an Israeli friend to pluck through it if you want. Bonus: he hates Bibi with the fury of a thousand suns.

    I also didn’t know until this last election he’s not a US citizen either. He’s nervous about his status but I think he’s good for now.

  8. 8
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: No. Unfortunately, the trajectory of Israeli politics since the assassination of Prime Minister Rabin, has been ever farther to the extreme right. The sad truth is that Bibi is the closest to the center of Israeli politics these days of those on the right of Israeli politics.

  9. 9
    germy says:

    Meanwhile

    Ilhan Omar HEATED Exchange With Elliot Abrams At Hearing 2/13/19

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MQDdKqsUSA

    Sputtering rage from Abrams over the questions.

  10. 10
    germy says:

    @Adam L Silverman: If Bibi’s the center, then the Israeli right must be truly terrifying.

  11. 11
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Just added this update to the post:

    In case anyone, like the President, the Vice President, Congressman McCarthy, etc, was unclear, I’m Jewish and yes, I’m criticizing Israel’s prime minister and, at least, one of his and Israel’s current government’s policies. This is not anti-Semitic. If you think it is or that I am or are considering stating that I am, you can go fuck yourselves sideways with a hanukiah!

  12. 12
    Martin says:

    @catclub: Turkey isn’t responsible – they’re just acting in their best interest here.

  13. 13
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @dmsilev: Don’t hold your breath.

  14. 14
    Jeffro says:

    There are a handful of goons willing to risk getting millions killed here in order to distract, to keep up their various scams, to keep from being arrested/impeached, etc.

    Here’s hoping that some bad end comes to the goons, and soon.

  15. 15
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yutsano: I’m still fluent enough to read it, but thanks for the offer. The tweets were both in English. The interview was in Hebrew and was recorded. The translation I quoted from WaPo is a direct translation, is clear that he used milchamah in his remarks in Hebrew, and has been confirmed and reported by Andrea Mitchell on MSNBC.

  16. 16
    Mike in NC says:

    Bolton has dreamt of this war for decades. I just read something about Kushner being on the payroll of both the Saudis and Qataris. We could end up with dueling crises in the Middle East and North Korea because Trump is a terrible deal maker.

  17. 17
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: Good!

  18. 18
    ruemara says:

    @germy: SHe’s the only person treating him like the war criminal he is.

  19. 19
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: It isn’t a pretty sight. Or sound.

  20. 20
    germy says:

    @ruemara: And he’s pissed off! I can see the expression on his face: “Who does this b*** think she is???!”

    He looks like James Taylor’s long-lost, evil brother in this clip.

  21. 21
    BobS says:

    @germy: Fascism is always terrifying.

  22. 22
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @ruemara: That’s only because he and I have never met.

  23. 23
    oatler. says:

    When Bibi and Hitler meet in hell…
    now there’s a sitcom!

  24. 24
    germy says:

    @BobS: The fact that guys like Abrams and Bolton are allowed anywhere near policy is what gives me insomnia.

  25. 25
    Brachiator says:

    Bibi Netanyahu is very willing to actually fight a war against Iran until there are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, megalomaniacal monomania.

    Right now, today, I think that Trump is too much of a coward to actually send troops into war against Iran (apart from the fact that such an idea is appalling). I don’t think that Bibi, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and John Bolton singing in harmony could push Trump into war.

    But that’s just today. No guarantees about tomorrow.

  26. 26
    Matt says:

    @germy: Every statement I’ve ever seen from the Israeli far-right was unironically better in the original German, where it was still a warmup for a war crime but less cynical.

  27. 27
    Yutsano says:

    @germy: @Adam L Silverman: BRB need a cigarette…

    Actually I need to see if I can move my car after last night’s ice storm. Wish me luck!

  28. 28
    Gravenstone says:

    I’m all for handing Bibi a Galil with all the ammo and rations he can carry, then pointing him towards the border. No other logistical support or other troops. But by all means, go get ’em slugger!

  29. 29
    BobS says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I just decided to send a few bucks to her for 2020. Her head and her heart are both in the right place.

  30. 30
    germy says:

    @Matt:

    Every statement I’ve ever seen from the Israeli far-right was unironically better in the original German, where it was still a warmup for a war crime but less cynical.

    I’m curious: are they like our far-right? I mean, do they want to dismantle the Israeli social safety net, healthcare system, union protections, etc? Or are they just all about declaring war on other nations?

  31. 31
    Kdaug says:

    This too shall pass.

    In the interim… is drawing & quartering passe? We could do it with motorcycles and televise it. Gotcha reality TV right heah, no?

  32. 32
    GregB says:

    The pieces for an utterly disastrous global conflagration are falling in to place.

    These are the conditions that make an assassination of the Archduke spark all more likely.

    Hold on to your hats.

  33. 33
    germy says:

    @Yutsano:

    Actually I need to see if I can move my car after last night’s ice storm. Wish me luck!

    Yeah, I was trying to shovel a foot of snow this morning and found it covered with a layer of ice. And of course the inevitable wall of ice/snow at the end of my driveway from the monster snowplow drivers.

    I miss old fashioned snow. It would fall from the sky, I’d shovel it, go back inside for some aspirin and hot soup and that was that. Nowadays all sorts of weird atmospheric stuff happens so that we always get snow, then freezing rain, then sleet, then more snow, then more sleet.

  34. 34
    BobS says:

    @germy: The herrenvolk have things pretty good.

  35. 35
    Fred Fnord says:

    As another Jew, albeit only semi-culturally, I approve this message.

    Although I don’t think they’ve quite gotten to the part where they have actually admitted it to themselves yet, the official right-wing policy in Israel seems to be gravitating towards ‘genocide-by-proxy’, and I’m quite afraid that the US is going to happily continue being ‘proxy’.

  36. 36
    BobS says:

    @Fred Fnord: The large concentration camp called Gaza suggests they’re quite capable themselves.

  37. 37
    Another Scott says:

    Good post, Adam. But isn’t a really, really big piece of this the fact that there’s an election in Israel on April 9? Haaretz:

    Benjamin Netanyahu has to reach two thresholds in order to be re-elected as prime minister on April 9. The first is for his right-wing bloc, otherwise known as his “natural coalition” of nationalist and religious parties, to reach a majority of 61 in the Knesset. The second is for Likud to emerge from the election as the largest single party in the Knesset, ensuring that Netanyahu is picked by President Reuven Rivlin to form the next government.

    If Likud comes in second, some of the weaker links in Netanyahu’s bloc could refrain from recommending him to the president. Rivlin, who is no fan of Netanyahu, is then likely to give the nod to the leader of the larger party, who could theoretically entice elements of Netanyahu’s coalition to bolt the prime minister and form a more centrist coalition instead.

    […]

    It seems kinda transparent to me – he needs more RWNJ support, so he’s ramping up the war-talk again.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  38. 38
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @BobS: She’s either going to grow into the job or she’s going to be gone in two years. I don’t personally think she’s anti-Semitic, and I have no problem with criticizing the Israeli government or its policies and that certainly isn’t anti-Semitic. But we’ll see whether she’s going to learn and grow or if she’s just going to step on rakes. I hope it’s the former as I think having someone with her background and life experiences in Congress is very important.

  39. 39
    MazeDancer says:

    There are times when it feels anti-semetic not to be anti-Bibi. War-mongering feels like one of those times.

    And go get ‘em Congresswoman Omar!

    Though I worry about her safety. Hope she has good security.

  40. 40
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: No. But it is important to understand that universal health insurance/care was invented by von Bismarck. So equating a high quality, high value social safety net and social insurance programs with the left is sort of an American thing. Israel’s right is far more about Israeli ethno-nationalism and Israeli religious supremacy.

  41. 41
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Another Scott: I think that’s part of it. I also think that since he’s basically figured out he can do whatever he wants as long as the current President is president and that the President is easy to manipulate, that he’s letting his freak flag fly.

  42. 42
    Kdaug says:

    @Another Scott: Point taken, Scott. And the question “Why are we fighting Isreal’s wars?”

  43. 43
    SenyorDave says:

    I get the impression that Abrams would fit in perfectly with any type of authoritarian regime. He would revel in a true fascist country where he could really let his freak flag fly. I’m sure he fondly remembers the 1980’s where as an advisor he helped craft policies that supported murderous regimes in Guatemala, Honduras and El Salvador. There should be a special place in hell for Elliot Abrams.

  44. 44
    BobS says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I think she acquitted herself pretty adroitly from a careless tweet- I particularly liked the touch of equating AIPAC with the NRA. And her questioning of Abrams shows she can think on her feet with a camera pointed at her, which is not as easy as people think.

  45. 45
    Kdaug says:

    @Adam L Silverman: a.) Enjoy it while you can
    b.) Blowback is a bitch

  46. 46
    Doug R says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Am I missing something in the furor over that infamous tweet?
    Because I don’t see being anti AIPAC as being antisemitic.
    Especially considering the most furious American “patriots” the NRA are turning out to have been bought and sold out to one of America’s sworn enemies.
    AIPAC is just a lobby, like the NRA.

  47. 47
    BobS says:

    @Doug R: Her initial tweet, with the inference (I don’t think it was her intent) that Jews=money. The reaction was overblown, and her recovery was impressive- she apologized while holding her ground.

  48. 48
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Doug R: It isn’t. Apparently, from the local reporting in Minneapolis, she has a history of making statements that sound anti-Semitic going back to her days serving in the Minnesota legislature and before. And, apparently, the local Jewish community, including Democratic politicians, are not sure that their attempts at outreach and education actually made a difference because she isn’t, but having grown up in a refugee camp in Kenya she’s just unaware of how this sounds to Americans or that she actually is and is very good at providing a convincing apology. This goes back to my comment about seeing if she does learn something about inapt phrasing because she’s just not culturally attuned to how what she’s saying may come across or whether there’s a deeper problem here. I’m not willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I can’t stand AIPAC, think it should be required to register under FARA and that it’s employees should too.

    Give this a read:
    https://www.twincities.com/2019/02/12/mn-jewish-leaders-talked-with-ilhan-omar-about-anti-semitism-last-year-why-they-remain-frustrated/

  49. 49
    Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    There are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, meglomanical monomania.

    The US can scrape up about 15,000 “light” troops, Army and Marines, ( most of whom will have to do logistics and support),

    The US Navy, well we’ve read about the Fitzgerald and the McCain.

    1/5 USAF combat aircraft are combat ready, 3/5 meet the airworthy requirements.

    Aside from some missiles, bombs, and a few SOF Ops, the US Military is tapped out, overdeployed, under rotated and 17+ wars of choice have their consequences.

    Nobody’s following a US Tip of the Spear, into Iran, until it’s at least as large as The Gulf War, ( not Dubya Dubya Me Too), and following is what they will be doing.

    With out the US being in the position to do all the heavy lifting, this is just posturing, or a collection of morons, and I’m not discounting that last one.

    Iran’s not going to overreach or overreact.

    So this is all “The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle! Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.”

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, Russia, China, the EU and Iran have taken the first steps in setting up a Financial System, a bartering system for now, to nullify US financial sanctions against Iran.

    At some point in time, Quatar’s gonna figure out that the best way/fastest way to deal with the Sawdi/UAE attacks, is to dump everything they’ve got on Jar-Jarvanka into Meuller’s lap and bring down The House of Needy Amin.

  50. 50
    Chris Johnson says:

    @germy: Thanks for nuking my youtube recommendations… sheesh, you’d think I could remember to open every youtube link in an incognito window when it’s some kind of politics-related link. That channel is a goddamn cesspool.

  51. 51
    rp says:

    @Kdaug: These are the types of comments that bother me. If we fight a war against Iran, it’s because WE want to, not because Israel is leading us around by the short hairs. WE have agency and are perfectly capable of making stupid and evil decisions on our own. Blaming Israel is giving people like Trump and Bolton too much of a pass.

  52. 52
    Adam L Silverman says:

    We’re going to have to send Max Boot for some remedial reeducation. Apparently parts of it didn’t stick.//

  53. 53
    zhena gogolia says:

    @germy:

    I am so out of it. I’m like, Abrams? WTF? What does he have to do with anything? I simply cannot pay attention to every single outrage of this administration, but they have Abrams on board?????

  54. 54
    Kent says:

    @Brachiator:

    Right now, today, I think that Trump is too much of a coward to actually send troops into war against Iran (apart from the fact that such an idea is appalling). I don’t think that Bibi, Ann Coulter, Sean Hannity and John Bolton singing in harmony could push Trump into war.

    But that’s just today. No guarantees about tomorrow.

    Whether or not Trump has the stomach for war is pretty much besides the point. That’s not how wars start anyway. The neocons with the assistance of Israel will manufacture the casus belli out of thin air like they did with WMD in Iraq. Or the Tonkin Gulf Incident 50 years ago. The fact that there are no adults in charge anywhere in the government from the Pentagon to the State Department is what is really the scary thing. And that is all on Trump.

  55. 55
    rp says:

    How on earth would Israel fight a war against Iran? It’s physically impossible unless Saudi Arabia allowed Israel to use its land as a staging area, which seems…unlikely.

  56. 56
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Elliott Abrams a leading advocate of human rights? That’s, um, novel…

  57. 57
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jay: It’s almost like someone here did a front page post about this well over a year ago.

  58. 58
    Jay says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    They brought Abrams in to set policy on Venezuela and to try to drum up regional allies to overthrow Maduro.

  59. 59
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Max has issues. Bless his heart.

  60. 60
    sdhays says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I would have liked her to actually spend more time on the point she started with. Make him explain why a man convicted and put in prison for lying to Congress should expect Congress to believe anything he says now. That the man is not always referred to as “Elliot Abrams, convicted felon” is a crime in and of itself.

  61. 61
    Jay says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Yup, stuff I learn sticks. Thanks Adam.

  62. 62
    Jon Marcus says:

    Re being fluent in English: “I think Bibi new exactly what he was doing”

    “new” s/b “KNEW”

    Also, another Jew (and I don’t even hate myself!) chiming in on the “not anti-Semitic”.

  63. 63
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jon Marcus: I thought the hanukiah was a nice touch…

  64. 64
    Kent says:

    @rp:

    How on earth would Israel fight a war against Iran? It’s physically impossible unless Saudi Arabia allowed Israel to use its land as a staging area, which seems…unlikely.

    Well, Iran shares a border with Iraq and Turkey too. Iran also has a lot of assets stationed in Syria on Israel’s border as well as militias in Iraq.
    And Israel does have an air force that I’m sure they’d like to unleash on targets in Syria if given the green light. But the larger point is that Israel wouldn’t actually be waging war against Iran. We would be doing it on their behalf, just like we did in Kuwait and Iraq.

    Being an ally of Israel means that we fight their extra-territorial wars for them and get the blowback as a result.

  65. 65
    Kdaug says:

    @rp:
    Fine.
    I’ll blame Trump and Bolton.
    BiBi gets a pass.

  66. 66
    trollhattan says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    sideways with a hanukiah

    So that’s how it’s spelled. :-)

    Bibi’s “Let’s you and him fight” schtick is so old they want it for the Smithsonian paleontology collection. Can we hire the Russians to hack Likud out of business?

  67. 67
    germy says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Max Boot wrote the book “The Corrosion of Conseveratism – Why I Left The Right” but he calls Abrams an advocate of human rights?

    Is it a work of fiction?

  68. 68
    BobS says:

    @Adam L Silverman: He got his ass kicked in that thread. But he doesn’t need remediation- he knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s every bit as slimy as Abrams.

  69. 69
    Mart says:

    @Adam L Silverman: That is my understanding of the far right in Europe. They know they can not step on social safety nets. We on the other hand will vote in the interest of hurting the “others”.

  70. 70
    Jay says:

    @rp:

    Israel would contribute airstrikes, missile strikes, submarine missile strikes and a small Naval deployment to “keep the Gulf safe for Oil shipments”.

    90% of the Israeli military would be tied down in Lebanon and Syria, Gaza , the West Bank and the Egyptian border.

  71. 71
    Steeplejack says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    He is the administration’s “special envoy” to Venezuela. Business cards and everything.

  72. 72
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: No, he’s going to have to attend summer school for remedial reindoctrination because not all of it took the first time.

  73. 73
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    From the responses:

    Rob Rousseau

    Verified account

    @robrousseau
    44m44 minutes ago
    More
    Replying to @MaxBoot @IlhanMN @CFR_org
    if he doesn’t want to get asked about it maybe he should not have done the genocides in the first place

    4 replies 7 retweets 394 likes
    Reply 4 Retweet 7 Like 394

    Nick Tacik, PhD.

    @nick_tacik
    42m42 minutes ago
    More
    even a minimal amount of boot should be able to get this

    2 replies 0 retweets 51 likes
    Reply 2 Retweet Like 51
    New conversation

    Alex McCabe

    @Iaculus
    30m30 minutes ago
    More
    The more boot, the more time you have to spend licking.

  74. 74
    rp says:

    @Kent: See my other comment above. The idea that we fought in either of the gulf wars because of Israel is a little silly.

  75. 75
    rp says:

    @Jay: Does Israel have planes with that kind of range?

  76. 76
    Ohio Mom says:

    @zhena gogolia: Thank you! That is exactly what I was thinking. I’d forgotten all about Abram’s existence and here he is, the bad penny, showing up again.

  77. 77
    Immanentize says:

    @Jay:

    Quatar’s gonna figure out that the best way/fastest way to deal with the Sawdi/UAE attacks, is to dump everything they’ve got on Jar-Jarvanka into Meuller’s lap

    Right now, it seems that they are being forced to by the Mueller/US Attorney efforts against Deutsche Bank and the Qatar investors. The most recent was the revelations about bailing out Kushner on 666 5th Ave. I think the Qatari princes are pissed that Kushner greenlighted the Saudi blockade….

  78. 78
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @rp: Saudi Arabia is on the southwestern tip of the Arabian Peninsula ranging up to the borders of Iraq and the other gulf states. Israel’s planes have the range to reach Iran without needing to stage out of Saudi. Or anywhere else.

  79. 79
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Bibi Netanyahu is a warmongering terrorist.

  80. 80
    Brachiator says:

    @Jay:

    here are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, meglomanical monomania.

    The US can scrape up about 15,000 “light” troops, Army and Marines, ( most of whom will have to do logistics and support),

    The US Navy, well we’ve read about the Fitzgerald and the McCain.

    All very true. But neocons are thick-headed.

    Iran’s not going to overreach or overreact.

    Also true. But clearly, some folks are trying to goad Iran into doing something stupid, or are trying to justify a preemptive strike.

    But as I said, I think that Trump is too chickenshit to OK a war or send troops.

    Also, all this talk is beyond crazy. I cannot imagine Israel or the US or anyone else invading and overseeing the “rebuilding” of Iran after any kind of war. The idea is ridiculous.

    But then again, I would like for someone to explain what Bibi could be thinking when he tries to build support for attacking Iran.

  81. 81
    tobie says:

    The DoJ announced indictments against a former counterintelligence agent for passing classified information on to Iran. Now I know why. Trump, Kushner, Netanyahu are all banging the drum for war with Iran. Yikes.

  82. 82
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @rp: Yes. And they have refueling capabilities.

  83. 83
    Immanentize says:

    @rp: That’s kinda funny. We have no serious national interest in fighting Iran outside of the pressure of allies. Our own stupid reasons would gain no public or political purchase if it were not for the Sunni/Shia grudge match and the Israeli push to dominate that is currently alligned with people who formed their opinions in the 1970s and never rethought them.

    War with Iran is not America’s fight at all.

  84. 84
  85. 85
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @tobie: Except she was also shopping it and herself to Russia at the same time. Iran simply ponied up first.

  86. 86
    Jay says:

    @rp:

    Israel supplied a lot of the faux intel, AIPAC and other lobbying groups supplied lots of arm twisting and Bibi kept threatening to start the war himself if the US didn’t, more so in Dubya Dubya Me Too,

    @rp:

    Since the early 1980’s Israel has had aircraft and refueling capable of reaching Iran, even by avoiding flying over Arab States, and as the US does for the Sawdi genocide in Yemen, the US would supply refueling, satellite imagery and EW assets to the IAF and INF.

  87. 87
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Immanentize: Did you get the email I sent you yesterday?

  88. 88
    Immanentize says:

    @tobie: Well, Witt did defect to Iran…. So I think the Indictments are likely warranted (see what I did there?)

  89. 89
    Immanentize says:

    @Adam L Silverman: maybe…. Let me check!

  90. 90
    Anonymous At Work says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Is “sideways” necessary? Is there a clean and safe orientation for this activity which is not obvious to the casual observer?

  91. 91
    Immanentize says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Got it. Thank you very much!

  92. 92
    tobie says:

    @Adam L Silverman: It doesn’t surprise me that there would be more than one bidder. The time of the indictment is what stood out for me given your post. The infractions she’s accused of committing happened in 2013. BTW–I’d expect the Russians would have formed an alliance with Iran early on once it became apparent that the Iranians were best positioned to disrupt the US in Iraq. And then of course they shared the same strategic interest in Syria.

  93. 93
    germy says:

    And now a statement from Mr. Cosby:

    I heard about Ms. Coleman’s (NBC 10) interview from the residents here. Here’s why I, [Mr. Cosby] have “no” remorse and will never have remorse. I was given a deal; I settled out of court for $3.8 million dollars; I waived my 5th amendment rights; I was declared Not Guilty in 2005 by the Commonwealth – never charged. However, a low-life District Attorney and a corrupt Judge needed me Guilty now. Not for justice, but for their political aspirations. They say, Mr. Cosby you must attend these classes. Why? One word. Entrapment! My political beliefs, my actions of trying to humanize all races, genders and religions landed me in this place surrounded by barb wire fencing, a room made of steel and iron. So, I now have a temporary residence that resembles the quarters of some of the Greatest Political Prisoners – Martin Luther King, Jr., Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Randal Robinson, and Dr. Benjamin Chavis. I stand upright as a Political Prisoner and I Smile. The Truth is Strong!”

    Bill Cosby

  94. 94
    Immanentize says:

    @Jay: Israel will never fight Iran directly.

  95. 95
    Kent says:

    @rp:

    @Kent: See my other comment above. The idea that we fought in either of the gulf wars because of Israel is a little silly.

    Well of course the Bush Admin and Haliburton Inc. had plenty of their own reasons for war with Iraq. That does not, however, negate the notion that Israel played a role in pushing for the war for its own reasons
    https://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2010/02/iraq-war-israel-bush-saddam

  96. 96
    Captain C says:

    @germy: IIRC, Labor and the left in general have had a really tough go of it since the second intifada (basically, “look what happened when you tried to make peace”), and Kadima (the center right breakaway from Likud which held the Prime Ministership for a few years with Olmert) collapsed about 10 years later in a flurry of corruption and Hamas rockets. The alternatives these days are basically shitty and shittier. I’m not sure what it’ll take to change this.

  97. 97
    rp says:

    @Immanentize: Of course. I’m not arguing for a war with Iran. It would be completely idiotic. My point is simply that it’s far too simplistic to say that out actions in the ME are dictated by Israel.

    Israel might have helped Dubya and Cheney invade Iraq, but it’s absurd to claim that they did so against their better judgment and because they were controlled by Israel.

  98. 98
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Immanentize: You’re welcome.

  99. 99
    Ryan says:

    “Bibi Netanyahu is very willing to actually fight a war against Iran until there are no Americans left to die for his warmongering, megalomaniacal monomania. He is perfectly willing to sacrifice as much American blood and treasure as necessary to achieve his goals against Iran and within the region. As are Crown Prince Muhammad bin Salman of Saudi Arabia and Crown Prince Muhammad bin Zayed of the United Arab Emirates to achieve theirs.”

    I feel so endeared to our allies. Seriously, if these are their aims, why are we there, except to die or create a peace?

  100. 100
    tobie says:

    @Immanentize: To wit, that’s witty!

  101. 101
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Anonymous At Work: Not really, but fine attention to detail is important.

  102. 102
    rp says:

    @Kent: Yes — I agree with that. But there’s a significant difference IMO between saying (a) Israel wanted us to invade Iraq and helped make the case vs. (b) we fought Israel’s proxy war at their behest.

  103. 103
    Kent says:

    @Immanentize:

    @Jay: Israel will never fight Iran directly.

    If a larger regional war against Iran broke out, what do you want to bet that Israel would take the gloves off and take advantage of the opportunity to go after a long list of Iranian-backed targets in Syria and Lebanon?

  104. 104
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @tobie: Everything she gave the Iranians was sold and/or shared with the Russians.

  105. 105
    Captain C says:

    @Adam L Silverman: It didn’t help things when, an election or two ago, Bibi chose to partner with the far right parties rather than make a centrist coalition.

  106. 106
    NotMax says:

    Netanyahu has been striving to drum up a war on Iran (at the least) since Goku was in rompers. And each time another scandal about/related to him breaks (or is about to) in Israel he runs out and buys a bigger drum.

  107. 107
    Immanentize says:

    @rp: We agree. But the US interest in war with Iran is currently probably at it’s lowest level in decades. We won’t do it without some Middle East hanky panky. And I do not at all mean Israel alone. I think the Saudis have more of a voice on this issue with Trump right now than even Bibi. Which is, I suspect, exactly how he would prefer it should the shooting start.

  108. 108
    ruemara says:

    @germy: Nobody of worth gives a damn about the rapist.

    @Adam L Silverman: Methinks we have a lot of issues with personnel in IC.

  109. 109
    The Pale Scot says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Adam, could you put up a link to that?

  110. 110
    But her emails!!! says:

    @Jay:
    Ummm. Are you saying Israel is going to fly planes down the gulf of aquaba, down the length of the red Sea and accross part of the Arabian Sea, to their target in Iran and back again? Because that’s the only route I see that allows them to strike Iran without getting overflight permission from at least one country.

  111. 111
    rp says:

    @Immanentize: I mostly agree, particularly if you’re talking about the US as a whole. But the GOP is another story. After all, Trump did name Bolton as his NSA…

  112. 112
    piratedan says:

    @BobS: her response was that “It’s ALL about the Benjamins”, which to reference a movie done in the last twenty years, implied that its all about money. Old white people, not having seen a movie that was from a non-white POV in said same time, connected dots to benjamins=jewish money rather than benjamin franklin, the guy on the 100 dollar bill… cue faux outrage and rinse and repeat.

    At most, the remark was tone deaf (at least in the context I believe it was intended, your implied context may vary, like your mileage)

  113. 113
    Barbara says:

    @Jay: Because things went so well the last time Abrams went on the warpath to overthrow a dictator in a foreign country using U.S. troops? Given Abrams’ track record why does anybody listen to him on anything? If he had actually learned something from his disastrous advice I might be willing to forgive, but he’s the same old person offering the same old justifications that didn’t make sense then and don’t make sense now.

  114. 114
    Immanentize says:

    @Kent: Maybe in Lebanon. But Syria means also bombing Russians. Israel has hit Iranian targets in Syria, but they were really no big deal and more in line with a “see what we can do” strategy. Those attacks really play big in Israel. The last time I was there a few years ago, they launched a small air attack on the Egypt/Gaza border. The folks in Haifa and Tell Aviv where I was visiting were all lefties, but all very supportive and proud of the military actions.

  115. 115

    @Kent:
    I think the key thing with Gulf War II, Electric Boogaloo is that it would never have gotten off the ground if it hadn’t appealed to a lot of different constituencies. It had something for just about everyone in the Republican coalition. It had had a chance to grab oil for the fossil fuel companies, weapons sales for the MIC, a war against a Muslim state for the Christianists, revenge for people who were just plain angry, etc. Israel may have wanted it and helped to provide a pretext, but it needed all those other people on board to have a chance of happening.

  116. 116
    Barbara says:

    @germy: One word response to Cosby: Rohypnol. Going after someone for political gain isn’t a defense if you actually committed the crime.

  117. 117
    Brachiator says:

    @rp:

    These are the types of comments that bother me. If we fight a war against Iran, it’s because WE want to, not because Israel is leading us around by the short hairs. WE have agency and are perfectly capable of making stupid and evil decisions on our own.

    A good case could be made that the US got sucked into the Vietnam War because of French efforts. Certainly, the UK and France tried to sucker the US into getting deeper into Suez in the 1950s.

  118. 118

    @Kent:
    Taking on Iranian backed assets in Syria and Lebanon is not the same thing as taking on Iran directly.

  119. 119
    Jay says:

    @Immanentize:

    Israel’s been assasinating a lot of Iranians for quite a few years.

    They have also co-opted a Sunni terrorist group in Iran to act as a proxy, along with a couple of Kurdish terrorist factions.

    They have also directly killed IRGC in Syria and abroad.

    Now, if by “fighting directly”, you mean IDF Ground Forces invading Iran, of course not. In any war on Iran, they will be too busy at home, to play road games.

    But the current state of Israeli/Arab relations ( at least with the big boys like the Sawdi’s/UAE/Egypt) is such that there qould be no objections to Israel using SOF/airpower/missile strikes to hit Israel’s choice targets in Iran.

  120. 120
    Chyron HR says:

    @germy:

    It must sting to know that if he was white, he’d be president.

  121. 121
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @germy: He never answered the questions about his past actions and claimed heatedly that any questions about his past were illegimste.

    I remember seeing him being interviewed on TV in the early days of the Reagan admin–maybe for some position. His small smirk has always stuck in my mind–as if rejoycing in his ‘gang’ finally getting in power where they belonged so they could finally achieve the GOP’s long held goals. His name and face stuck in my mind. For me it was an iconic moment–capsulizing the meaning of the new era in GOP controlled policy. Siiigh!

  122. 122
    Jay says:

    @But her emails!!!:

    Remember when Israel blew up the Osirak Research Reactor and other targets in Iraq?

  123. 123
    scav says:

    @germy: Jay-sus. Self-aggrandize much Mr. C? That’s practically attaining Trumpian levels of posturing and self-esteem.

  124. 124
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Captain C: It didn’t help that he broke Israeli law in that election and formed a governing coalition even though he hadn’t won the largest plurality. And then told both the President of Israel whose one actual non-ceremonial job is to ask the head of the party who wins either an outright majority of the largest plurality and Tzippi Livni whose party had one the larger plurality, to stuff it when they called him out. Interestingly enough in that same year Maliki did this in Iraq and the Tories did this in Britain.

  125. 125
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @ruemara: We have a very large counterintelligence problem. It is complex and multifaceted.

  126. 126
    Mary G says:

    Adam, I know you said our allies pushed back. I haven’t had time today to read up on this, but are they pushing back hard enough so that the administration knows our ass is hanging out there alone on this? And is anyone left in the administration bright enough to know that going it alone would be a disaster? These are the times I wish Mattis could have hung on just a bit longer.

  127. 127
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @GregB: We’reu about 5 yrs past due for an assassination spark, right?

  128. 128
  129. 129
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jay: The Revolutionary Guards took a suicide bombing attack this morning.

  130. 130
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy: @scav: @germy: Jay-sus. Self-aggrandize much Mr. C? That’s practically attaining Trumpian levels of posturing and self-esteem.

    also some random capitalization that looks at least trump-curious

  131. 131
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jay: I have a picture of the ruins of the reactor taking from the top of the berm at COP Cashe South, aka the Tuwaitha Nuclear Facility.

  132. 132
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mary G: My understanding is that they did. That’s why Bibi’s remarks set off a lot of panic and puckering this afternoon/evening.

  133. 133
    Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    If you read Logevall, the US got stuck in Indochina because of domestic politics, ( losing China, Korean War), and France got stuck in Indochina because the US refused to allow an ally ( who was horribly dependent on US Aid, at home and in the Colonies) to make a French Union deal with Ho Chi Mihn.

    As a result, France passed on Indochinese Independence as part of the French Union, or even a Bai Dau/Indochina as French Provinces Abroad, and the war went on to a Vietnamese victory.

  134. 134
    debbie says:

    Adam, I insist Israel died the day Yitzak Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish settler. It’s not you they will be coming after.

    Aside from the fact that the tweet’s wording is as word-salady as any of Trump’s, this coy and deceptive wording plays right into all of the hateful stereotypes. I wonder if Bibi’s move is based on his growing sense of the outcome of the 2020 election?

  135. 135
    Kent says:

    @Roger Moore:

    @Kent:
    I think the key thing with Gulf War II, Electric Boogaloo is that it would never have gotten off the ground if it hadn’t appealed to a lot of different constituencies. It had something for just about everyone in the Republican coalition. It had had a chance to grab oil for the fossil fuel companies, weapons sales for the MIC, a war against a Muslim state for the Christianists, revenge for people who were just plain angry, etc. Israel may have wanted it and helped to provide a pretext, but it needed all those other people on board to have a chance of happening.

    Well of course. Don’t forget electoral politics as well. The Iraq War resolution in Congress on October 16, 2002 was perfectly timed for the 2002 midterm elections. Doesn’t mean Israel didn’t play a part as well.

    My gut feeling is that a repeat performance with Iran is going to be a MUCH harder sell. We are almost a generation away from 9-11 now. Russia is deeply embedded in the region and a quasi-Iranian ally. It is a much larger, more remote, and mountainous country than Iraq. And we have burned our bridges with most of our longtime allies that have actual military capacity. It is just nonsensical to even contemplate war.

    I can visualize Trump and Bolton getting to a place where they might declare war on Iran. They are irrational. But I don’t see the Pentagon actually having a war plan to win a war there and conduct regime change. How many US troops would it take to occupy a country of 82 million that is 4x the size of California?

  136. 136
    West of the Rockies says:

    War or combat…
    How about a compromise?
    Wombats!

  137. 137
    JPL says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Tis one of the reasons why I stayed away from the never trumpers today. I thought she did a good job.
    It’s my understanding that Monica Witt’s indictment has been sealed since 2013 so why release it today? I think that is as frightening as Bebe’s tweet.

  138. 138
    debbie says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I know. I just choked on my sushi reading that tweet.

  139. 139
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I think it’s important to note that Abrams deceased wife was the daughter of Midge Dector sp? wife of Notman Podhoretz long-time editor of the conservative journal Commentary(I think the journal was mostly liberal in the 60s.)

    Midge Dector wrote really vicious articles against the anti-war students, as I recall.

  140. 140
    Jay says:

    @Barbara:

    As noted earlier, the US is tapped out militarially.

    Half of Venezuela’s neighbors ( all the Right Wing/Dictatorship ones) are deeply concerned about the situation, half of the neighbors think it’s an issue that Venezuela needs to solve and US Sanctions and actions arn’t helping.

    Nobody in the area wants to send troops.

    So, when the Pentagon informs you for the 900th time that the US has no Military Options in Venezuela,

    What do you do?

    Bring in Abrams, because Needy Amin’s Admin doesnt give a rats ass about anything more than toppling Maduro and stealing the oil. If there is any “strategy” involved, it’s Wall, believing that WTSHF, the consequences won’t hit home because Wall keeps them out.

    It really is the Dunning-Kruger Administration.

    Abrams should be in jail in the Hague or have been shot by firing squad in Nicarauga two decades ago if the US paid anything more than lip service to Human Rights.

  141. 141
    Brachiator says:

    @Jay:

    If you read Logevall, the US got stuck in Indochina because of domestic politics, ( losing China, Korean War), and France got stuck in Indochina because the US refused to allow an ally ( who was horribly dependent on US Aid, at home and in the Colonies) to make a French Union deal with Ho Chi Mihn.

    The way I read it, the US got suckered into the political vacuum caused by France’s declining power. American arrogance and the false reading of the Communist menace led to other misadventures.

  142. 142
    debbie says:

    @piratedan:

    The part about the Benjamins wasn’t even necessary. It’s like she gave her opponents the rope to hang her with. SMDH.

  143. 143
    eemom says:

    The meme that criticizing Israel — or as you correctly note, more accurately criticizing Bibi — does NOT make you anti Semitic is increasingly more of a straw man. No one aware of the rhetoric on the US and British left, to say nothing of across the political board in other European nations, can in good faith deny that criticism of Israel does often cross the line into antiSemitism.

    Do you disagree with that, Adam?

    Are you comfortable with facile, sneering comparisons to the Holocaust made on this thread?

  144. 144
    Jay says:

    @Kent:

    “I can visualize Trump and Bolton getting to a place where they might declare war on Iran. They are irrational. ”

    Not gonna happen.

    Declaring war on Iran with out the muscle to back it up or even “contain” Iran means Iran wins and the US is done forever in the Middle East.

  145. 145
    AThornton says:

    Anybody know the actual status of the S-300 anti-air missile systems Russia deployed in Syria?

    I’ve read conflicting accounts.

  146. 146
    Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    With out US financial aid and military backing for continued French Colonialism in Indochina, Indochina would have had either Indrpendence within the French Union or Provincial Status in the French Republic, in 1947.

  147. 147
    Mart says:

    Gotta try this again…

  148. 148
    trollhattan says:

    @germy:
    Feeble old rapist is still a rapist. I’m sure his actual scores of victims are all verklempt at his poor treatment.

  149. 149
    Jay says:

    @AThornton:

    Nobody knows. Mixed with the Deconfliction Agreements, competing claims, the cat and mouse EW and Intel games and the need by all parties right now to avoid escalation, nobody knows.

  150. 150
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @eemom: I think there are three different dynamics. The first is that Bibi has gone out of his way to conflate Israel with Judaism and promote that as head of the Israeli government that he speaks Jews/Judaism. The second, which is far too prevalent in the US and builds on the first, is usually coming from the right generally and coming from the Christian Zionists in specifically, and uses accusations of anti-Semitism as a weapon to beat up on anyone they politically disagree with the criticizes Israel, especially if that criticism is legitimate so as to devalue the criticism and change the topic so that the specifics of the criticism are obscured in the charges of anti-Semitism. And this is all usually done while the people who are engaging in it have long histories of casual to hard core anti-Semitism. The third and final dynamic is when there is anti-Semitism because the people making the critiques of Israel have themselves conflated Israel and Judaism. Unfortunately, the more that Bibbi conflates the two, the more ammunition is provided to those in this third category.

    What facile, sneering comparisons to the Holocaust? The only two times that Holocaust are used in the comments to this post are in your question to me and in my response to you. So I’m not sure what you’re talking about. If you’re talking about snide comments that Bibi’s remarks, or the comments of those within his governing coalition that are farther to the right than he is, sounded better in the original German, I don’t think those are facile illusions to the Holocaust. I think those are attempts to repurpose Molly Ivins cutting humor against Pat Buchanan against these folks who, I would argue, would very much like to see at least the Palestinians removed from Israeli life, even if they’d be willing to do it without killing any of them directly by just forcing them out of Israel, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip.

  151. 151
    trollhattan says:

    @West of the Rockies:
    Wombats are the worst! Worse than even drop bears.

  152. 152
    Captain C says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I’d forgotten that part. Christ, what an asshole!

  153. 153
    Mart says:

    @debbie: Better to tweet with a Jewish Star and picture of Benjamins

  154. 154
    Chyron HR says:

    @eemom:

    Just call him a “kapo” and get it over with.

  155. 155
    Brachiator says:

    @debbie:

    The part about the Benjamins wasn’t even necessary. It’s like she gave her opponents the rope to hang her with. SMDH.

    As an MPR news story noted,

    Omar responded: “It’s all about the Benjamins baby,” followed by a musical note emoji. The line comes from a 1997 Puff Daddy rap song referring to $100 bills.

    Seems as though some of her opponents are looking for a fight where there doesn’t need to be one.

  156. 156
    Jay says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Glad you responded to the attempt to change the subject with flame bail and not me.

  157. 157
    Adam L Silverman says:

    And I’m off to the gym. You all try not to start any land wars in Asia, SE Asia, Central Asia, and/or Asia Minor while I’m gone!

  158. 158
    Brachiator says:

    @Jay:

    With out US financial aid and military backing for continued French Colonialism in Indochina, Indochina would have had either Indrpendence within the French Union or Provincial Status in the French Republic, in 1947.

    Interesting hypothetical.

  159. 159
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @trollhattan: I’m Wombatman!

  160. 160
    A Ghost To Most says:

    We are headed for an Archduke Ferdinand moment.

  161. 161
    trollhattan says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Someday those Asia Minors will have the vote, then watch out.

  162. 162
    burnspbesq says:

    @Jay:

    You spin a great yarn. Shame it has so little to do with observable reality.

  163. 163
    AThornton says:

    @Jay:

    What I figured.

  164. 164
    Jay says:

    @Mart:

    You need to edit your comment for people who don’t follow links to include “like Trump did”,

    Otherwise it comes across quite differently.

  165. 165
    eemom says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Read the thread again and you’ll see what I was referring to.

    The rest of you can go fuck yourselves.

  166. 166
    sukabi says:

    @germy: yeah, he really didn’t like his lying, criminal past brought up. lol.

    These young women are bringing truth and 🔥.

  167. 167
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Brachiator: Nixon was pushing hard for US to aid France in Dien Bien Phu sp?

    Ike said no more American boys were going to fight and die in SEAsia on his watch.

  168. 168
    debbie says:

    @Brachiator:

    That’s exactly what they’re doing. And she provided the assist they needed.

  169. 169
    Mart says:

    @Jay: Old man have problems with buttons.

  170. 170
    Yutsano says:

    @Adam L Silverman: So…North America, South America, Europe, and Antarctica are good? TIME TO BOMB PARIS AGAIN BOYS!

  171. 171
    Jay says:

    @burnspbesq:

    Read Embers of War,
    The Fall of an Empire,
    And the Making of America’s Vietnam.

    By Fredrik Logevall

    ISBN 978-0-375-50442-6

    The 2013 Pulitzer Prize Winner for History.

    As I pointed out, there is a lot of “new history” being written off of recently released archives, classified documents and first person testimony from “The Other Side” that is changing the “Winners History”, well worth reading.

  172. 172
    Raven says:

    @Jay: I’m reading this now

    Vietnam: An Epic Tragedy, 1945-1975 Hardcover – October 16, 2018
    by Max Hastings (Author)

  173. 173
    Jay says:

    @Mart:

    Actually, a lot of people don’t follow links at all.

    I’ve lost count of the times I have provided exercpts of an article and a link, only to have commentators asking questions answered in the article.

  174. 174
    Brachiator says:

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    Nixon was pushing hard for US to aid France in Dien Bien Phu sp?

    Ike said no more American boys were going to fight and die in SEAsia on his watch.

    I don’t know that anyone was particularly listening to Nixon with respect to this. And what Ike said and what ultimately happened was a tragedy.

  175. 175
    MomSense says:

    @Emma:

    I’m thankful that I was too busy to look at the news until now.

  176. 176
    Cacti says:

    Bibi will always be ready to fight Israel’s enemies down to the last American.

  177. 177
    Jay says:

    @Raven:

    His WWI histories are amazing, so much winners history and losers history destroyed, so many myths murdered, and well written. I’ll have go check that one out.

  178. 178
    B.B.A. says:

    Speaking as a white male Jew, I increasingly find complaints of antisemitism to be as ridiculous as complaints of being racist against whites or sexist against men.

  179. 179
    Plato says:

    @eemom:

    Lol. You tried to troll the thread with lies and got smacked for it. Get over yourself.

  180. 180
    Brachiator says:

    @debbie:

    That’s exactly what they’re doing. And she provided the assist they needed.

    I think reaction to her statement was overblown, and some seem to be refusing to accept her apology. I hope that people can find a way to chill out.

  181. 181
    Raven says:

    @Jay: So far I really like it, the French are just getting the boot so I’m interested to see what’s next (not that I haven’t read 1000 books on the topic). Ever see The Anderson Platoon by Pierre Schoendoerffer?

  182. 182
    eemom says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Here’s another question for anybody interested in an actual discussion of antiSemitism other than to dismiss it as a rhetorical tool of Bibi apologists and others on the right; and is familiar with the highly publicized disintegration of the Women’s March: are the millions of women who have denounced Mallory, Sarsour, Bland and the other whose name I can’t remember because of their antiSemitism also just tools of Bibi and the far right? Because I know plenty of them who don’t fit that d scription, to say the least.

  183. 183

    @Adam L Silverman: What about South America? They stole our name.

  184. 184
    eemom says:

    @Plato:

    What part of go fuck yourself do you not understand?

  185. 185
    debbie says:

    @Brachiator:

    Yes, their reactions were intentionally overblown and they will never lose their overblown outrage. It is far too valuable as a weapon. This same kind of thing happened a number of times to PBO; hopefully, she’ll learn more quickly than he did how not to play into the hands of the enemy. Nancy could provide some invaluable advice, I’m sure.

  186. 186
    Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    There were plans for massive B52 airstrikes, US Carrier Airstrikes, even the offers of nukes, by Dulles and the Pentagon, to France as options,

    But it all hung on British partnership in Indochina and Anthony Eden refused.

    Dulles believed that there was no “plausible deniability” in the US “saving” Dien Bien Phu, and that would draw in direct Chinese and Soviet involvement in the war, but if Britain and the Commonwealth were involved that would make the situation “to big” and keep the Soviets out.

    B-21 Superfortresses were offered to the French Airforce as well, but the only 4 engine qualified crews the French has were French Navy crews who were already running their B-24’s ragged with airstrikes.

  187. 187
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Brachiator: The 68 ‘Republican Senators White Paper on Vietnam’ claimed HoChi Minh appealed to the US to help the Vietnamanese fight France’s attempt to resume their rule over their colony in Fr Indochina.He reminded the US that Vietnam had been a strong ally against Japan.

    The paper claims that when the US refused to help them against France, Ho turned to what he perceived to be his only hope–the Soviet Union.

  188. 188
    Mart says:

    @Jay: Understood, just with rump’s multiple daily outrages nobody remembers stuff like him sending a tweet with a picture of Hillary, Star of David, and $100 dollar bills (Benjamins). Suppose it was an attack on her getting paid to speechify to Goldman Sachs before he put Goldman Sachs folks in charge of the economy.

  189. 189
    Raven says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: It wasn’t just that paper, it’s pretty much common knowledge.

  190. 190
    Plato says:

    @eemom:

    Ah, your usual juvenile temper tantrums.

  191. 191
    Jay says:

    @Raven:

    I don’t watch much anymore. Readings a more comfortable pace for me and a lot of documentaries, like movies, often “condense the book” leaving many vital parts out.

    Give Logevall’s book a try, 700+ pages, ( not including footnotes), mostly covering the politics from the 1920’s to the American takeover.

  192. 192
    Dan B says:

    I believe there are a fair number of people who support Israel and are afraid that the continual military posturing could push the Middle East into a war that would lead to the collapse of Israel. This is not highly likely but the fact that the possibiliry exists makes many people more than nervous. I’m halfway through Yuval Noah Harari’s latest book and his story about Netanyahu being surrounded by people who flatter him and insulate him from genuine constructive criticism is disturbing.

  193. 193
    Jay says:

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    When JFK first toured Vietnam in the 1950’s, he wrote home that it was an “anyi-colonial war” that the French were destined to lose.

    When he was running for office, and in office, it was “Communism” because of domestic politics.

    The big stink about The Pentagon Papers, was that it showed that the US Military, knew that it was always an anti-colonial war, one that could never be won, but they always, to the Politicians and the public, said otherwise.

  194. 194
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Brachiator: I was in jr high at the time. Our science teacher was being rather harsh and demanding. One of the boys said she was worried because her son was in the military.

    It was only yrs later that I realized she must have been very worried about Nixon’s pushing. At the time I knew nothing about Vietnam, was not paying any attention to world news.

  195. 195
    Brachiator says:

    @Jay:

    There were plans for massive B52 airstrikes, US Carrier Airstrikes, even the offers of nukes, by Dulles and the Pentagon, to France as options,

    But it all hung on British partnership in Indochina and Anthony Eden refused.

    What would have happened had Anthony Eden agreed?

    Dulles believed that there was no “plausible deniability” in the US “saving” Dien Bien Phu, and that would draw in direct Chinese and Soviet involvement in the war, but if Britain and the Commonwealth were involved that would make the situation “to big” and keep the Soviets out.

    That the US considered “saving” Dien Bien Phu indicates the degree to which they were suckers.

  196. 196
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Raven: I realize that now but that 68 paper was the first time I ever heard that. At the time, I had the impression that most Americans had never heard that.

  197. 197
    guachi says:

    Late to the party but my Hebrew linguist wife, absent of any context, also translated the words as “war” and “combat” like Adam did. Further, once given the context said that there would be no way to confuse the two and that Netanyahu’s spoken Hebrew is perfectly clear and his English is good, too.

    It’s just not believable it was a “mistranslation”

  198. 198
    Steeplejack says:

    @Jay:

    You just reminded me that the B-52 is the Stratofortress, which nomenclature no one ever uses.

    (I assume your “B-21” was a typo for “B-29.”)

  199. 199
    Sebastian says:

    @Dan B:

    What gets forgotten is that Bibi is a genuine idiot. Dumb as a rock. Remember the outrage when Obama said that?

    Edit: he called him chickenshit. Either I misremember or there was a second incident.

  200. 200
    Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    Eden was more than a bit busy. Britain was still trying to cling to Empire while war austerity and rationing was still ongoing at home.

    If Eden had said yes, a tiny token Military force would have deployed, mostly RAF, and that’s it. All the white Colonies except Rhodesia and South Africa had demobilized, and left 90% of their military hardware in Europe, given to new Armies of Western Europe, or stationed in West Germany, staring down the Soviets.

    The Rhodesians and South Africans were starting to fight against their own anti-colonial elements.

    India and Indonesia would have offered military support to the Viet Minh rather than just moral support.

    The US was considering “saving” Dien Ben Phu for a bunch of reasons,

    – massive airstrikes against the Viet Minh forces surrounding Dien Ben Phu and against what became the Ho Chi Minh Trail, would allow the French Forces a limited victory, allow their withdrawl by air back to the Red River Delta, while “stranding” the majority of Giap’s forces on the “wrong corner” of Tonkin China, and preserve French Indochina for another year,

    – the Paris Peace Talks were taking place, ( the US was not participating) to solve the Indochina Problem, and the French had a weak ( losing) hand with Dien Ben Phu under desperate seige.

    – the US had gotten Western support for Korea with promises that nobody would have to fight alone against Communism, and that there would be no unilateral ceasefires or Peace Treaties, and then abandoned their allies in Korea with a unilateral Cease Fire. Support for anti-Communism had been made very, very shaky. It’s one of the many reason’s Eden didn’t sign on to supporting the US position on French Indochina, and instead, backed and pushed France towards a “acheiveable” solution at the Paris Peace talks.

    – The Strategic Bombing Mafia still ran the USAF and their Bomb Damage Assesments still showed 2+ million Red Chinese killed, 1578 tanks destroyed and 132,000 trucks destroyed in the Korean War, when in reality, aside from destroying Korean infrastructure, it had minimal impact. The Chinese Volenteers had almost no tanks, few trucks and mostly moved supplys with coolies, on foot, on goat paths, at night.

    – the domestic politics of being seen as rabid anti-Communism and the willingness to paint the war as anti-Communism, and sell it to the US public, had them trapped.

  201. 201
    Jay says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Yup. Stratofortress. By the point in time that the US was offering the French air support, the Viet Minh had deployed early radar aided 57mm AA guns around Dien Ben Phu and even the B24 Privateers of the French Navy were getting hit and shot down. Any improvements on airstrikes had to be done with greater “accuracy” from higher altitudes.

  202. 202
    Jay says:

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    99% of the US MSM pimped the Indochina War and the Vietnam War right up until Walter Cronkites “moment”. Feb 27, 1968.

  203. 203
    Brachiator says:

    @Jay:
    The US had a lot of military muscle but not a lot of foreign policy brain.

  204. 204
    Jay says:

    @Brachiator:

    State Department Asia and China hands had been purged in the Communist Witch Hunts and the Who Lost China Blame Game,

    At the same time, both the Military and the Politicians believed they could with sheer power, change the reality on the ground, to fit the domestic political and ideological narratives.

    The US was swelled with hubris and idiocy.

    Remind you of any 21st Century events?

    The US is not alone. On Brexiteer recently said that the solution to the Irish Border Question is simple. Ireland should just leave the EU and join Britain.

    Unfortunately, the only cure for stupid is death.

  205. 205
  206. 206
    Another Scott says:

    @Immanentize: Speaking of Saudi Arabia and Donnie’s machinations… Charlie Pierce at Esquire:

    Cosmos has a terrific interview in its latest issue with Michael Mann, the professor of atmospheric science at Penn State who has been a winter soldier in the climate battles ever since inventing the “hockey stick” graph that Al Gore made famous in An Inconvenient Truth. Arguably, the most fascinating part of the interview comes toward the end, when Mann talks about the money and influencers behind climate denial, which he calls, “the most villainous act in the history of human civilization.”

    Along the way, Mann tosses some familiar names into the dock. We quote at length, because it’s great.

    In my recent book, The Madhouse Effect, we talk about what played out in the last presidential election. The assault on climate scientists, Climategate, was almost a training ground. It was the same actors and the same mission. Climategate was about trying to distract the public and the policymakers with a fake scandal going into the Copenhagen Summit [also known as the United Nations Climate Change Conference] in 2009, which was the first opportunity for meaningful progress on international climate policy in years.
    A compelling case can be made that Russia’s involvement and Saudi Arabia’s potential involvement in the last [US] election was about a half-trillion-dollar oil deal between Russia and ExxonMobil that had been blocked because of the sanctions against Russia. What’s the first thing that happened under the now-infamous Paul Manafort? They changed the Republican platform to try to get rid of those sanctions. Then Trump appointed Rex Tillerson, the former head of ExxonMobil, as Secretary of State. Is that a coincidence? It was the same players and the same motive and the same disingenuity. In the case of Climategate, there have now been the better part of a dozen investigations in the US and the UK, and they have all come to the conclusion there was no impropriety on the part of the scientists whose emails had been stolen. The only wrongdoing was the criminal theft of the emails in the first place.

    [image]

    The science that we are doing is a threat to the world’s most powerful and wealthiest special interests. The most powerful and wealthiest special interest that has ever existed: the fossil fuel industry. They have used their immense resources to create fake scandals and to fund a global disinformation campaign aimed at vilifying the scientists, discrediting the science, and misleading the public and policymakers… it is about the short-term interests of a small number of plutocrats over the long-term welfare of this planet and the people who live on it.

    (See the original for the embedded links.)

    Hmmm… There’s no doubt that the people who are on top of the fossil fuel heap are fighting to stay there as long as possible (even though there’s much, much more money for the world as a whole in building new technologies and in fuel efficiency than in digging stuff up out of the ground). How blatant can they be??

    One of the really “mysterious” things early in Donnie’s administration was when everyone was seemingly chomping at the bit to go to war with Qatar, just after he left Riyadh. Manafort’s fingers are everywhere…

    Who was it here that said we should “follow the money”? ;-)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  207. 207
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Another Scott:

    Who was it here that said we should “follow the money”?

    Ees a puzzlement!

    More seriously, if you dive into the hack of Mann’s email, it looks suspiciously like the other cyber components of Russia’s active measures we’ve been seeing since 2014.

  208. 208
    Jay says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Yup, Climategate looks like a trial run. I wonder if there was collusion involved?

  209. 209
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jay:

    I wonder if there was collusion involved?

    Ees also a puzzlement!

  210. 210
    Jay says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Makes you wonder if 5 Eyes should be digging deep in every digital ‘gate in the past decade for The Ususal Suspects.

  211. 211
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jay: One would hope.

  212. 212
    Dmbeaster says:

    @eemom:

    criticism of Israel does often cross the line into antiSemitism.

    I think the far greater problem is that criticism of Israel is constantly debased by the phony claim of anti-semetism. Israel has a lot of problems and its a rather crappy ally. Israel has its own ugly history and a great deal of complicity in the ongoing mess there. But any meaningful assessment of its misconduct is drowned by the false claim that criticism of Israel is anti-semetism.

  213. 213
    Tehanu says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: Midge Decter wrote lots of really nasty screeds against feminists and feminism, students, hippies, environmentalists, you name it. She was the appropriate wife for the man who wrote about his “Negro Problem”, which was that he’d been bullied by some black kids in his schooldays and that proved that the civil rights movement was a scam.

  214. 214
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @A Ghost To Most: “Some damn fool thing in the Middle East.”

  215. 215
    Barry says:

    @Brachiator: “Also, all this talk is beyond crazy. I cannot imagine Israel or the US or anyone else invading and overseeing the “rebuilding” of Iran after any kind of war. The idea is ridiculous.”

    Israel no more wants Iran to be rebuilt than they wanted Iraq to be rebuilt. They want to be the hegemon of the Middle East; any and every intact country there is a threat to their ambitions.

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