Monday Morning Open Thread: Bread & Roses

I’m still of two minds about Senator Warren’s campaign. On the one hand, she’d make a fine president; on the other, we here in Massachusetts — and the country in general — would lose a dedicated legislator and a fierce proponent for consumer protection. But, yeah, I’ve donated already and will no doubt continue to chip in as necessary.

Elizabeth Warren formally launched her presidential campaign Saturday with a call for “fundamental change,” even if the “cowards and armchair critics” call it “extreme or radical.”

“Because the man in the White House is not the cause of what’s broken, he’s just the latest — and most extreme — symptom of what’s gone wrong in America,” Warren said of President Donald Trump at an outdoor rally on a chilly, but sunny winter day.

“It won’t be enough to just undo the terrible acts of this administration,” Warren continued. “We can’t afford to just tinker around the edges — a tax credit here, a regulation there. Our fight is for big, structural change.”…

Her staff said 3,500 supporters filled the courtyard of the mill complex, some of whom had ridden campaign busses from as far away as Cape Cod.

Then she told the story of why she wanted them here.

After realizing their pay was cut in the winter of 1912, the women who worked here stopped the looms and started a political conflagration that became known as the Bread and Roses strike, which saw tens of thousands of workers clash with police and armed militiamen called out by political leaders aligned with the mill owners.

“Nevertheless, they persisted!” Warren said, invoking her now-famous slogan as she looked out at the phrase plastered on hundreds of signs waved by supporters in the crowd…

“People will say it’s ‘extreme’ or ‘radical’ to demand an America where every family has some economic security and every kid has a real opportunity to succeed. I say to them, ‘Get ready, because change is coming faster than you think,'” Warren said…

(NB: Annie Linkskey has been hate-stalking Warren since the Scott Brown campaign; I assume the WaPo hired her away from the Boston Globe to serve as this season’s Amy Chozick. Everything she writes, IMO, should be scrutinized with a whole shaker of salt.)

CEDAR RAPIDS, Iowa — Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.) told voters Sunday that President Trump might be unable to finish his term, firing back at him for the first time since his reelection campaign attacked her rollout.

“By the time we get to 2020, Donald Trump may not be president,” Warren told an audience here. “In fact, he may not even be a free person.”…

172 replies
  1. 1
    OzarkHillbilly says:


  2. 2
    Chris Johnson says:

    The original ‘persisted’ :)


  3. 3
    Sab says:

    Darn. Now I won’t be able to where my “persist” t-shirt to Curves without offending people.

  4. 4
    Betty Cracker says:

    Thanks for the heads-up about Linskey. Since political beat reporters don’t disclose their book plans up front, it’s probably safer to assume they’re all writing a campaign memoir in their heads at all times.

  5. 5
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Massive crowd for Amy Klobuchar in Frostbite Falls (photo)

  6. 6
    Van Buren says:

    Before I commit to her I’ll need to know if how she eats fried chicken.

  7. 7
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    Woman’s got sand. Talks inna direct, forceful, clear, visceral fucking way. Go big indeed.

    After the orgiastic debauchery of Gooper gaslighting, it’sa breath a fresh air for me to hear a candidate who can succinctly and eloquently explain how we got here, who’s to fucking blame and how we can proceed forward. And fucking well say so w/o mumbling or whispering or tugging her forelock apologetically.

    Persist more like that, please.

  8. 8
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Standing on whales, fishing for minnows.

  9. 9
    akryan says:

    There is no way I will vote for someone in the primaries who will potentially be in their 80’s by the time they get out. You might be able to do it as a legislator, or a SCOTUS judge, because there is a lot of off-time, whether in session or out, but not for the POTUS. You are POTUS all day every day, even when you are on vacation. There is just no way, if you’re going to do it right, to have enough energy or focus to be a president at that age. Yes, it’s ageist, but it’s just the truth. Reagan had Alz by the time he got out much younger than that. Trump works about 3 hours a day, and takes a lot of days off, which would be fine for a retired person but isn’t for POTUS. He may never have, but he definitely doesn’t now, have the mental capacity to be POTUS. That said, if the Democrats nominate a literal corpse, I’ll still vote for them.

  10. 10
    Betty Cracker says:

    Klobuchar shoots, scores:

  11. 11
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    From Revealed: wife of Putin’s spokesman faces questions over US tax affairs:

    Records indicate that between 2006 and 2013, Navka and Zhulin paid only $1,168 in federal taxes to the US on a combined income – spanning wages, business profits, rental property revenue and gains from property sales – of $3.4m. While some of the income was taxed in Russia instead, they also reduced their US bills with tax credits and generous write-offs legally available to landlords.

    The fact that this didn’t even raise any eyebrows at the IRS is testament to either how broken our tax system is or how broken the IRS is. OR how broken both are.

    I’m going with C.

  12. 12
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:


    ETA: Should also mention I very much appreciate Warren’s ability to speak with empathy and fairness and soul-stirring humanity. She’s real. She’s genuine. Those qualities complement her fiery side nicely, I think. Sometimes am remiss to convey the totality b/c sometimes I positively seethe at the injustice and deceit and puerile stupidity that has befallen this land.

  13. 13
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    ARE, Sweden — Lindsey Vonn walked off with her career haul of medals in her right hand, the gold, silver and bronze clinking together almost weighing her down.

    Or was it the bulging knee braces and metal support rods inside her vast array of broken bones?

    Whatever it was, the sound was a reminder of what Vonn has come to symbolize — an athlete who battled back from one major injury after another throughout her career to win more ski races than any other woman.

    Add one more — final — comeback to the list

    Five days after crashing in super-G — a fall that knocked the wind out of her and left her with a black eye and a bruised rib — and three months after tearing a ligament in her left knee, Vonn won the bronze medal in the world championship downhill Sunday in the final race of her career.

    She’s shed so many tears that there are none left — just like she no longer has any cartilage in her knees.

    Badass to the end.

  14. 14
    Jay says:


    Replying to @Rschooley
    I’m still wide open on who gets my vote, but I think an important data point with Warren is she’s indisputably the most dangerous candidate to the plutocracy.”

    Let’s not fool ourselves, ogliarchies.

  15. 15
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: From the Guardian:

    But after each crash, she showed a fierce – perhaps impatient – determination to get back to the starting gate. She tried to return for the 2014 Olympics but suffered another injury setback when she reinjured her knee. Perhaps it’s no wonder she’s now dating Subban, who plays a sport in which injured players are expected to get stitched up and get back on the ice as quickly as possible. Few other people could comprehend how she could suffer injury after injury and return.

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  18. 18
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    I’ma change my nym. Cuz why fucking not? Started out as a fillip to myself in SFBay, but it’sa ugly-ass name am well n truly ready to shed.

    For any as is confoozled, poleaxed gon’ be ola azul, long’s it lets me.

    Sorry for any confusion. That is all.

  19. 19
    ola azul says:

    This lemme poleax poleaxed?

  20. 20
    WereBear says:

    I understand the concerns about age, but we must not hasten to discard what often comes with it: wisdom.

    Not Repubicans, of course. Reagan already had the rep for being “not too bright” among Hollywood insiders, but that didn’t matter to the studio system. W infamously described things to us as though we were five, which one brilliant mind noted, “Was probably how it was explained to him.” The only reason I think Trump is literate is that he probably needs to know what number winds up on the contract, lest he be cheated as he cheats others.

    Senator Warren is a late-bloomer in terms of politics, though I would guess that her academic career equipped her with some skills.

    Plus, not every age is the same. This becomes starker the older we get, and we see peers reflecting the past care they took of themselves: if at all.

    And Warren has something which is rare and wonderful: she knows how to create words which CONNECT with people. She goes viral.

    What has been her worst stumble? Something I don’t regard as a stumble at all. The Indigenous Peoples slur. She thought she could fight bullies with facts. Learned that bullies don’t care.

    If she has learned from that, I find that even more admirable.

  21. 21
    ola azul says:

    This lemme poleax poleaxed?

  22. 22
    Jay says:


    Nym is fine, primo almost, like polished brass.

  23. 23
    ola azul says:

    Awaiting moderation! Exciting!

  24. 24
    raven says:

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: After getting banned from FDL i hooked up here and used stuckinred for a year or so and then went back to my late great cocker’s name.

  25. 25
    Immanentize says:

    @akryan: so you will be voting for Warren? Because she will not potentially be in her 80’s.

    Or is that just a random rant?

  26. 26
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄 😄😄

  27. 27
  28. 28
    Jay says:


    Good morning.

  29. 29
    Immanentize says:

    You got banned from FDL? I SALUTE YOU BROTHER!
    What did you do? Insult T-Rex?

  30. 30
    ola azul says:

    @Jay: @raven:

    Considered the-ornery-dumbshit-formerly-known-as-poleaxed, but it’d sorta already been done form-wise.

  31. 31
    JPL says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Amazing. I had seen a replay of the fall, but I had no idea she won the bronze. Badass indeed.

  32. 32
    Jay says:


    99.9% of the attacks on Warren are bullshit.

    And I say this as a rancher/farmer/settler living on unceeded Septpwemiiuck lands.

  33. 33
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  34. 34
    Baud says:


    What has been her worst stumble? 

    Rigged primaries in my book.

  35. 35
    Quinerly says:

    @Van Buren: Poco is very interested in that also. Does her mother scream at her like his mother does when she picks up fried chicken with bones and sneaks a chomp on her walks? 😈

  36. 36
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: Yeah. I have no idea why she did that.

  37. 37
    raven says:

    @Immanentize: Nah, he actually lives up the street. When Jane went into cahoots with Grover I went full blast after her ass until she dropped the hammer.

  38. 38
    Baud says:


    IMHO she overreacted to a question and said what she thought her base wanted to hear.

  39. 39
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Warren is way down on my list after this.

    Any candidate who thinks the way to win is by slagging Clinton is playing to the Village and not to Democratic voters. Clinton voters are the largest bloc in America.

  40. 40
    ola azul says:

    Still awaiting moderation. Hmm.

    Tap-tap-tap — is this thing on?


  41. 41
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Baud: there’s no reason to think she didn’t buy into that shit. When people show you who they are, believe them.

  42. 42
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: @Bobby Thomson:
    I didn’t remember so much about the details — so she was actually responding to the Donna Brazille revelations about Hillary’s campaign funding the DNC…. Not a slag on Hillary voters at all, is it?

    ETA. Not a smart thing, but it seems like it was mostly and anti-DNC moment, no?

  43. 43
    Baud says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    No reason to think that. Also no reason to think she wasn’t just pandering. When a single statement is all you have to go on, it’s hard to know what’s really in their hearts. It’s not like she built a movement out of the lie like Wilmer did.

  44. 44
    Baud says:


    Every allegation of rigging the primary is a slag on Hillary voters.

  45. 45
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Oh, and Klobuchar can GFH after that someone-needs-to-campaign-in-Wisconsin crap.

  46. 46
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Immanentize: you seem to have been born in 2017. This “the DNC rigged things for Clinton” bullshit was always absurd and always about weakening Clinton.

  47. 47
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Sab: Surprised that rat’s nest of fundies wasn’t already offended.

  48. 48
    debbie says:


    I’m going with D: Russian spokespeople are crooked fucks.

  49. 49
    Immanentize says:

    @Bobby Thomson: By 2017, the race was over.

  50. 50
    debbie says:


    No, it is what he/she says it is: Ageism.

  51. 51
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: Fair enough. It certainly was a part of that whole and I do remember being kinda shocked by it. Warren has used the “rigged system” line for workers for two elections before that. But applying it to the election was out of the blue.

  52. 52
    low-tech cyclist says:

    I’m not completely decided for Warren, but I’m leaning pretty heavily that way already. I trust her to be on our side, and maybe I’ll eventually feel that way about one or more of the others, but not yet.

    When candidates go to Wall Street to troll for funding, it makes it hard for me to trust them. When candidates were ‘tough on crime’ (read: locked people up for small-time offenses), it makes it hard for me to trust them. When candidates were a driving force behind the onerous 2006 Bankruptcy Act, I don’t trust them one bit. That already describes a good chunk of the leader board. And then there’s Bernie, who after 2016 I’ll never trust at all.

    So while I’ll support the Dem nominee, whoever it is, through hell or high water against Trump, you can see why I’m leaning heavily towards Warren at this point.

  53. 53
    debbie says:

    @low-tech cyclist:

    It’s far too early to commit, but her economic expertise and the CFPB put her far up on my list.

  54. 54
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud: I’m a Hillary voter, and yet I feel unslagged. I get what y’all are saying, but there’s not a single candidate who hasn’t said or done something regrettable/damning at some point. I remember being so pissed at Hillary Clinton during the 2008 campaign for some of the potshots aimed at Obama!

  55. 55
  56. 56
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    Anyone know the protocol for a nym change? Apparently I is doing it wrong. Got three posts awaiting moderation (none inneresting, but then, they seldom is) that’s mostly failt experiments w/new nym.

    Open to ideas, but might bag it and try’n figger it out later — gotta rise but not shine inna coupla then up n attem. HumptyDumpty awaits reconstructive surgery!

  57. 57
    debbie says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I’m with you. This is no time to be holding grudges.

  58. 58
  59. 59

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: You have to wait for a front pager to release your comment from moderation before you can use the new nym.

  60. 60
    Jay says:

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: suck it up, butter cup, nym’s are sticky.

  61. 61
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Sure, but it’s a data point against her. A big one in my book. She might as well have said vaccines cause autism as far as I’m concerned.

    I know most voters don’t care about it though, even though they’ll get up in arms when Trump tweets something about Democratic election fraud.

  62. 62

    When I took the dogs out during a commercial break in the news, I saw something I don’t often see here in the light polluted city, a shooting star.

  63. 63
    Baud says:

    @debbie: It’s not a grudge. It goes to assessment of character and fitness for the job.

  64. 64
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Baud: Vaccines, really? Hmmm. Your own virtual candidacy just dropped to tier 3 in my book, bub! :)

  65. 65
    Baud says:


    So gun violence has spread to Hollywood celebrities. Awful.

  66. 66
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    A lie is a lie.

    ETA:. And while not Warren’s fault, this particular lie helped usher Trump to the White House in 2016.

    ETA: It would help if she recanted unambiguously.

  67. 67
    debbie says:


    It also presumes 100%+ impartiality, which is never realistic when human beings are involved. Rigged? No, but it’s hard to argue she wasn’t favored in some way because she was viewed as the candidate most likely to win.

  68. 68
    debbie says:


    Baud, that is overstated by a mile!

  69. 69
    Baud says:


    The question posed to her was, were the primaries rigged, and she unambiguously answered “yes”.

  70. 70
    rikyrah says:


    You might want to point out to us the next few times you post articles from this anti-Warren journalist, so that we will associate her with anti-Warren sentiment.

    I think it’s all part of us fighting back in 2020. Never again do they-the MSM- get the benefit of the doubt.😠

  71. 71
    Immanentize says:

    Heaven may have a wall, but I have it on good authority that
    In heaven, there is no beer.

  72. 72
    Baud says:

    @debbie: Fine, next time Trump tweets about Dems letting undocumented workers vote, I’ll like it as a valid contribution to the debate.

  73. 73
    msb says:

    @ Betty Cracker

  74. 74
    debbie says:


    Yes, and she was wrong to say that. But that misstatement in no way contributed to Trump. I’m surprised you think this.

    ETA: We’ve already established it was an invalid statement. You are giving it far too much weight.

  75. 75
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: @Jay:

    You and yer sticky nyms. You is a funny man, Jay. But thanks to Billin, I just happen to have Marshall McLuhan right here.

    @Betty Cracker:

    Wondering, Miss Cracker, how or with whom I might speak about changing my ugly-ass nym that only solid-brass Jay likes!

    Got three dumb (you know, my usual!) posts languishing in moderation, and apparently only a front-pager can emancipate caterpillar nyms from its chrysalis?

  76. 76
    Sab says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: They loved it. They are so politically unaware that they didn’t know who said it and in what context. I certainly wasn’t about to tell them.

  77. 77
    eclare says:

    @debbie: People who voted for her in the primaries disagree. Jesus Christ, how are we still having this argument?

  78. 78
    Baud says:


    I acknowledged that HER misstatement didn’t give us Trump. The lie was created by Bernie Sanders when he was losing the primary, and that helped give us Trump. Warren simply gave the lie credence after the fact.

  79. 79
    Baud says:

    @eclare: Because someone upstream asked what the worst thing Warren had done was, and I answered. I’m willing to drop this now.

  80. 80
    NotMax says:


    If there’s one thing I’m partial to, it’s impartiality.



    All your posts with the new nym are showing.

  81. 81
    debbie says:


    I agree.

  82. 82
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    On July 27, 2017, Johnny Wheatcroft was a passenger in a silver Ford Taurus when a pair of Glendale police officers pulled in front them in a Motel 6 parking lot. The stop was for an alleged turn signal violation.

    Minutes later, Wheatcroft was handcuffed lying face down on the hot asphalt on a 108-degree day. He’d already been tased 10 times, with one officer kneeling on his back as another, Officer Matt Schneider, kicked him in the groin and pulled down his athletic shorts to tase him a final time in his testicles, according to a federal lawsuit and body camera footage obtained by Scripps sister station KNXV-TV.

    The scene was witnessed by his 11- and 6-year-old sons.

    “I have never seen anything like this before… This is just beyond the pale. It’s outrageous conduct.”

    Multiple independent law enforcement experts, who agreed to review the incident, said the officers’ conduct was unlawful, potentially criminal, and one of the most cruel and troubling cases of police misconduct they’ve ever seen.

    “I have never seen anything like this before,” said Jeff Noble, an attorney and former deputy chief of police in Irvine, Calif., who’s testified in hundreds of cases including Tamir Rice and Philando Castile. “ It reminds me of a case in New York where an individual was sadistically taking a broom handle and shoving it up (the suspect’s) anus. This is just beyond the pale. It’s outrageous conduct.”

    Former LAPD detective supervisor T.T. Williams echoed his shock. “That’s not even borderline,” said Williams, an expert witness who testified in the Philip Brailsford case on behalf of the prosecution. “That’s inhumane.”

    I don’t have the stomach to watch the body camera footage this AM, but it’s available at the link, as well as a second by second breakdown of the video by the aforementioned ex LEOs.

    via Kevin Drum

  83. 83
    rikyrah says:

    Morning to Poco and the tribe 🤗😻

  84. 84
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    debbie says:


    There’s nothing “potentially” about it. This was as criminal as was Abner Louima’s torture.

  86. 86

    @Baud: Yeah, I drove by the Grammys on my way home from a shoot.

  87. 87
    ola azul says:

    Thank you whomever twere who hepped me out. Gonna rack out.

    (Buttercup! Ha! Crack me up. “I don’t think it means what you think it means.” Hadda young lady tell me I’s ugly-sexy once — reckon that’s the best I’ll ever rate in that dept.)

  88. 88
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    Kay says:

    I’ve wondered why this didn’t get more attention for a long time:

    In the decade since Vasquez’s appeal for help, more than 250 people who worked or volunteered in Southern Baptist churches have been charged with sex crimes, an investigation by the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News reveals.
    It’s not just a recent problem: In all, since 1998, roughly 380 Southern Baptist church leaders and volunteers have faced allegations of sexual misconduct, the newspapers found. That includes those who were convicted, credibly accused and successfully sued, and those who confessed or resigned. More of them worked in Texas than in any other state.

    I knew these environments and organizations where child abuse is covered up and then becomes systemic weren’t limited to the catholic church, because they occur in all kinds of places. One of the worst systemic physical abuse locations ever was in a Texas juvenile detainment facility that was staffed primarily by women. The federal government had to step in- the place was an absolute horror show.
    But I have wondered why this one wasn’t covered because it’s big and a lot of people know about it.

  90. 90
    Betty Cracker says:

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: I approved the several posts under your new nym that you submitted earlier, so you should be all set now.

  91. 91
    NotMax says:


    If memory serves, the item wielded in so viciously brutal and sadistic a manner in the NY incident was a plunger, not a broom.

    (Not your poor recollection, speaking to the stuff you provided in the blockquote, just for the record.).

  92. 92
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: and they did all that knowing it was being recorded. Jesus.

  93. 93
    ola azul says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Tx. Betty, very kind. Appreciate.

  94. 94
    JPL says:

    @Quinerly: I passed that on, because it’s so offensive. Arkansas hasn’t changed at all.

  95. 95
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @NotMax: That’s what I remembered too.

  96. 96
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @JPL: i would say Arkansas has gotten demonstrably worse in the last 25 years

  97. 97
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Poll Shows Strong Black Support for Gov. Ralph Northam

    It’s a tie overall, and African Americans believe he should stay in office by a 21-point margin. This probably means he’s going to stay.

  98. 98
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    The experts said it was appalling that Officer Schneider, who has won multiple awards from the police chief and has represented Glendale twice on the TV show Cops, was not terminated.

    Apparently he revels in being on camera.

  99. 99
    rikyrah says:

    Jonathan Capehart (@CapehartJ) Tweeted:
    Good speech, but missed opportunity by @SenAmyKlobuchar. She didn’t mention the shooting of Philando Castille, the Black man shot and killed during a traffic stop in St. Paul, MN, Mentioning the case would have signaled to AfAms, the base of the party, that she sees them.

  100. 100
    Princess says:

    My mind is open and will be a for a while, but frankly I too like the fact that she scares the plutocrats. The fact that we’re getting trolls here today pretty much supports that. Glad I pre-pied them.

  101. 101
    satby says:

    Good morning @rikyrah: and all!
    Judging my how testy everyone gets lately, we’re all going to need to be on Thorazine drips by summer.

    I tried to read the AL overnight thread below and FYWP seems to have mislaid it?

  102. 102
    Immanentize says:

    Well, I just heard that Seth Moulton is seriously thinking about running for President. I wonder if he ever said anything offensive?

  103. 103

    @Baud: I have to admit I was shocked when Warren said that. It did make me think less of her. So if you want her biggest misstep so far, that was it in my book too.

  104. 104
    JPL says:

    @Steve in the ATL: In the eighties a nice christian gas station called the credit card company on my husband because he had the audacity to ask where he could buy beer. We were gassing up the car along with another family to go camping and had gone into the store to buy snacks. The person on the other end of the phone asked to speak to my husband and suggested that they approved the gas purchase, but maybe he should stay away from that particular store for his own safety because they were strange. The children were in the process of buying snacks which were returned. We are white. Maybe it’s worse, because now a days they probably just call the police.

  105. 105
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yeah. This one seems over.

  106. 106
    JPL says:

    @Immanentize: hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

  107. 107
    NotMax says:

    @Steve in the ATL

    Remember the days when the right wing gasbags were obsessed with Mena airport being the entry point for nearly every illicit drug in the land?

  108. 108
    NotMax says:


    “12%? Amazing I poll that high before even announcing!”

    “Look closer, sir. That’s a minus sign before the number.”

  109. 109
    satby says:

    @Princess: I honestly had never pied anyone since the most egregious trolls dropped off after 2016 until the nym who just changed above in this thread showed up. His faux folksy illiterate routine just renders him unreadable to me. Especially since I was an adult literacy tutor for years and no matter how low their skills were none of my students spoke like that. They worked very hard to speak properly, especially as a cover for the fact that they couldn’t read past second or third grade level. I wish he’d stop his bullshit, but he doesn’t, so pie.

  110. 110
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: I think you have to write your request in standard American English for it to be accepted.

  111. 111
    NotMax says:


    Will admit I sscroll right by the aw shucks, cracker barrel content. A shame because when other comments are made comprehensibly there’s often a lot of meat on those bones.

  112. 112
    Kathleen says:

    @raven: You lasted much longer than I did.

  113. 113
    satby says:

    @NotMax: yeah, seems so. But I was told I was a narrow-minded something or other for suggesting he drop his act; and it’s an act because he’s so inconsistent about it. He’s a very literate person pretending to be “just regular folks”, and I guess he thinks regular folks can’t speak or write properly. Insulting concept, actually.
    @Gin & Tonic: And standard spelling and grammar are not the boss of him.

  114. 114
    Kathleen says:

    @Immanentize: Yes it is.

  115. 115
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    Maybe it’s worse, because now a days they probably just call the police.

    Only if you’re black.

    I’ve spent what seems like half my adult life in Arkansas and when it comes to the religious nut jobs things are far better. Still plenty of dry counties down there (I know all the best liquor stores in NW and NCentral AR) but nobody really cares. I think most of the dry counties exist despite the fact that a majority(?) of the voters in them drink because… well… “It’s always been this way.”

    Besides, the Saturday afternoon drive across state lines is a traditional family outing.

  116. 116
    satby says:

    Can anyone else open AL’s post at 1:15 am? I see it but trying to open it returns a “post not found” type of error.

  117. 117
    NotMax says:


    Yup, life is too short and all that. Sherlock Holmes gets paid to unravel the tangled and pierce the abstruse, we laypersons don’t. Slang works better as a spice, not as a main ingredient.

  118. 118
    Baud says:

    This reads like concern trolling, but the questions he raises are probably real enough.

    Medicare for All: A Time for Honesty
    E. Kent Yucel

  119. 119
    eclare says:

    @satby: Agree 100%

  120. 120
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: Nope, was able to earlier the AM but not now.

  121. 121
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh 😒

    The Crisis Magazine (@thecrisismag) Tweeted:
    According to reports, Virginia’s largest public university granted the conservative Charles Koch Foundation a say in the hiring and firing of professors in exchange for millions of dollars in donations.

  122. 122
    satby says:

    @Baud: Good article and good points raised. I prefer that they advocate for “Medicaid for all” but the racism and moochers vibes erroneously and unfairly attached to Medicaid limit that choice. Racist white America has really screwed us over and over.

  123. 123
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: That should be illegal.

  124. 124
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Immanentize: president? Of which country?

  125. 125

    @rikyrah: The word there that stopped me cold was “firing.” Assuming they’re tenured, professors almost never get fired, and if they do, it’s usually for something egregious like sexual harassment of several students and/or junior faculty members. You want to see procedures in action, watch one of those be carried out. Holy crap.

  126. 126
    rikyrah says:

    Neera Tanden (@neeratanden) Tweeted:
    People who think it will be easy to beat Trump are wrong. It’s not going to be impossible. But now he’s president. And a lot of people are vested in his success. We are all going to have to work hard to defeat him.

  127. 127
    rikyrah says:

    Uh huh 😒

    Natasha Varner (@nsvarner) Tweeted:
    I’m seeing way too many white people critiquing Native American intellectuals for their continued calls for @ewarren to do better. You are extremely in the wrong on this issue and here’s why. A thread.

  128. 128
    Yarrow says:

    @satby: I can’t open it either. From the front page it looks like it has comments so it must have been available at some point.

    @satby: @NotMax: I scroll by too. It’s too hard to read.

  129. 129

    No More Mister Nice has an interesting post on how the past few elections have all been about vetting the D, even when there was no incumbent so both candidates were new.

  130. 130
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @akryan: From someone who became 79 in January–totally agree with you on age problem!

  131. 131
    TriassicSands says:

    Anne Laurie wrote:

    I’m still of two minds about Senator Warren’s campaign. On the one hand, she’d make a fine president; on the other, we here in Massachusetts — and the country in general — would lose a dedicated legislator and a fierce proponent for consumer protection. But, yeah, I’ve donated already and will no doubt continue to chip in as necessary.

    I think that is an understandable reaction to the possibility of losing a good “local” representative, senator, or governor. However, I think Warren is a special case.

    Assuming she can’t overcome the self-inflicted problem of her genome, where would Warren be most effective over the course of what we can only hope will be a two-term Democratic president? My governor, Jay Inslee, is contemplating a run for president. I think he’d be a fine president and his focus on climate change reveals a grasp of the big picture, which other candidates and the electorate may not share. I don’t think I see a path to a successful presidential win for Inslee, and I think he will be more effective in his current position. So, I want him to remain governor.

    But Warren is one of 100 senators. Assuming another Democrat wins the nomination and presidency, I think Warren would be most effective, not as a senator from Massachusetts, which I hope could reliably replace her with another Democrat, but serving in the cabinet of the new president. When I think about Warren and compare her to any of Trump’s endless caravan of worthless, mindless, corrupt incompetents, I realize it is grossly unjust to even try to compare — it’s all contrast.

    I’m sorry that Warren finds herself in her current predicament, but it is/was self-inflicted and without judging its actual merits, I suspect it is something the MSM will cling to with all the fervor they had for Clinton’s emails. She can’t be an effective candidate if all the media want to talk about is her genetic background.

    I think she’d make a fine president — domestically, at least, her foreign policy has to be fleshed out — but I’m afraid she’s damaged herself in a way that may be unfixable. The reality in today’s world is that it doesn’t matter how serious an issue is or should be. It only matters how the media and voters perceive it.

    I suspect that Warren’s greatest value to the country would be as a cabinet secretary or some other administrative job under a Democratic president.

  132. 132
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @WereBear: Very good points! Thank you for reminders!

  133. 133
    NotMax says:


    Secretary of ‘splaining.

  134. 134
    TriassicSands says:

    @satby: @TriassicSands:

    I’ve objected to the idea of “Medicare for All” from the beginning. My reasons are simple:
    Medicare as it stands is not an adequate model for universal coverage. In order to be an adequate health plan Medicare needs either a Medigap supplementary plan or some other supportive plan to make up for what Medicare doesn’t cover, which can be a lot.

    I’ve also pointed out that Medicare’s funding source is inadequate and Republicans will always oppose lifting the cap altogether on payroll taxes. But that is what needs to be done — at the least.

    Medicaid for All is a better idea but there are caveats here, too. If someone lives in as area where it is relatively easy to find a doctor who will accept Medicaid, then Medicaid is far superior to Medicare, since the patient goes home without a bill. Medicare can leave patients vulnerable to medical bankruptcy — 20% of a final bill can easily be crippling. But many doctors won’t accept Medicaid because of its low reimbursements. Of course, if the entire country moved to a Medicaid for All system, doctors (and hospitals) would have no choice. It would be Medicaid or move to a new job in a different field.

    Sanders, AOC, and others throw around Medicare for All as though Medicare is some ideal program that will fix everyone’s health insurance problems. That is absolutely untrue.

  135. 135
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @rikyrah: A few yrs ago there were several articles at the blog talk2action (I think it’s inactive now but can maybe still be accessed) that Booker was involved with the New Apostolic Reformation (not sure of exact name)

    First heard of that movement at the same blog during 08 campaign. They were big backers of Palin.

    The movement is dominionist and pushes the ‘Seven Mountain plan’–idea that Christian’s should take over and lead the 7 pillars of society–ie, govt, education, entertainment, etc.

  136. 136
    Yarrow says:

    @TriassicSands: Massachusetts elected Brown as Senator. Another Dem is no guarantee.

  137. 137
    Yarrow says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I don’t know if they’re tenured. From the article:

    The newly released agreements spell out million-dollar deals in which the Koch Foundation endows a fund to pay the salary of one or more professors at the university’s Mercatus Center, a free-market think tank. The agreements require creation of five-member selection committees to choose the professors and grant the donors the right to name two of the committee members.

    The Koch Foundation enjoyed similar appointment rights to advisory boards that had the right under the agreements to recommend firing a professor who failed to live up to standards.

    Cabrera emphasized in his note to faculty that the “agreements did not give donors control over academic decisions” — an apparent reference to the fact that the Koch Foundation did not control a majority of seats on the selection committees.

  138. 138
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Kay: One of Billy Graham’s grandsons is a lawyer and worked for yrs for FL atty general office on child abuse cases.

    He later formed an investigative organization to investigate Protestant churches/ministries/organizations.

    They were called in to analyze the reports of abuse and coverup at Bob Jones U. Just as they were preparing to release the report, the U fired them.

    This lawyer, grandson has staed very explicitly that the level of abuse in protestant/Evangelical churches/organizations/ministries is equal to or greater than that in the Catholic church, but that the leaders and members refuse to acknowledge or confront the problem!!

  139. 139
    joel hanes says:


    Seth Moulton

    Came at the queen and missed. He’s dead meat with persistent delusions of adequacy.

    Envisioned himself as the knight slashing through the thorns to rescue the sleeping Democratic Party from the spell cast by the evil queen; succeeded in making himself look like Tweedledum instead.

    Dumbass. I’ll contribute to his primary opponent.

  140. 140
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Somehow this is reminding me of Seth Meyers “jokes I can’t tell”. Seth starts the joke and one of the other other two adds the punchline. The other two people identifying as “I’m black” and “I’m gay” and then they each provide the punchline when appropriate to the joke, which would be offensive if he told the joke.

    At the end, they both encourage Seth to tell one of his own — no I can’t, people will be offended, I’ll get in trouble, no you won’t, it will be okay, well, okay, I’ll tell just one.

    And then they both (fake) jump on him for telling the joke.

  141. 141
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @NotMax: Oh the days of ‘the Clinton Murders’!,

    Didn’t Pat Robertson have/frequently play on 700 Club a long video with that title?.

  142. 142
    joel hanes says:


    Slang works better as a spice

    Writing in dialect and doing it well is hard.
    If your real-life name isn’t Samuel Clemens, probably best avoided.

    That said, I’ve never found pabbw the least offensive, and have no problem parsing his contributions.
    Mais à chacun son goût

  143. 143
    WaterGirl says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: They should be off the force and in jail. Now.

  144. 144
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @joel hanes: My father told a story about when he was trying to learn English, and had heard from someone that Steinbeck was a good writer with fairly uncomplicated prose, so somewhere he picked up a copy of The Grapes of Wrath. It didn’t help him much.

  145. 145
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: In OK every time there was a vote on changing the drinking laws, the SoBapt preachers came out leading ‘their people’ to vote against any change. And then–so people saiid–they went back to their cocktails and beer.

    IIRC the law was changed only when major businesses pointed out that large OK cities weren’t getting conventions and conferences because the law prohibited them from selling alcoholic drinks.

    Wham! The law was soon changed!

  146. 146
    WaterGirl says:

    @rikyrah: Glad they have been outed for this. That’s a huge black mark against the University. What were they thinking????

  147. 147
    WaterGirl says:

    @Yarrow: I also scroll by, but I had forgotten why. :-)

  148. 148
    TriassicSands says:


    I’m well aware of Massachusetts’ voting record both for senator and governor. I simply said that Warren’s talents could be more valuable in a cabinet position than as one of 100 senators.

    If a state can elect Scott Brown, is there any guarantee it will reelect Warren, especially if she ends up badly damaged by a scandal with the potential to discredit here character (again, rightly or wrongly)?

    And it isn’t as though Warren is the only progressive candidate running for president in 2020. I really expected that we were going to finally elect a woman as president in 2016. We didn’t. Is the most important thing in 2020 to try to elect a woman or to defeat Trump? As much as I want to elect a woman as president, I want the strongest Democratic candidate this time around regardless of sex. We’re going to have so many candidates there is going to be a huge sorting out process. Warren goes into the contest with a cloud hanging over her head. As I wrote, I don’t think the media will let it go. It could prove fatal.

    If that happens, should Warren go back to serve as a senator in Massachusetts or use her considerable skills to help make a Democratic administration a success? I understand that Anne wouldn’t want to lose Warren as her senator, but I don’t think that answers the question of where Warren could do the most good.

    I never underestimate the ability of the American voter to royally screw things up. (See Trump, Donald J.)

  149. 149
    Yarrow says:

    @TriassicSands: She was just reelected in 2018 so she has a way to go before another Senate race, should she choose to run again.

    I think a cabinet position, outside of some of the highest profile ones, would be a mistake. She’s an excellent Senator where she has a great platform. We need excellent Senators and representatives. I’m very big on having a strong set of Reps and Senators. We need Congress to do its job. We need good people there to make that happen.

  150. 150
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @TriassicSands: How the media lead/forc/spin the voters to perceive it!

    We need to drastically do something about the media! They control everything now!!

  151. 151
    Sebastian says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Indeed. It’s almost as if Clinton disappeared. When in reality she is the rightful POTUS.

  152. 152
    TriassicSands says:

    Clearly, it would be a high profile position. And what that position would be would certainly influence her decision. Unlike you, apparently, it’s not something I am willing to reject out of hand. If she somehow manages to get the nomination that would eliminate the issue. Although I wouldn’t bet a nickel today on any one candidate getting the Democratic nomination, I would bet that some won’t. If I had to bet now, I’d bet Warren won’t get it. And the Native American issue, sadly, will be a contributing factor. Even the deciding one.

    I would gladly vote for Warren for president and I’d be happy to have her as my own Senator. While I wouldn’t trade Patty Murray for Warren, I’d be willing to trade Cantwell for her. That said, Washington State is much better off (senator-wise) than most states.

  153. 153
    TriassicSands says:


    About the only thing individuals can do is not support the worst offenders. I put in the modifier worst because there are no perfect media outlets. The much-maligned NY Times (often deservedly so for its continued mindless allegiance to bothsiderism) also does invaluable investigative work, and produces a lot of worthwhile content on non-political subjects. The Post also has some serious problems — like Fred Hiatt, the execrable editorial page editor and some of the worst right wing columnists this side of hell. But, like the Times, they do extremely good reporting at times.

  154. 154
    The Moar You Know says:

    Writing in dialect and doing it well is hard.
    If your real-life name isn’t Samuel Clemens, probably best avoided.

    hint hint to some who aren’t Sam Clemens. Or Cormac McCarthy, the only other writer I know who can pull it off.

    That said, I’ve never found pabbw the least offensive, and have no problem parsing his contributions.

    @joel hanes: Not willing to go there. They are a fucking bad writer with little to say and I don’t have time to wade through that shit. So I threw the new name in the pie filter just like the old one.

  155. 155
    satby says:

    @The Moar You Know: and since I assume the person writes at length to communicate, his insistence on that style is short-circuiting his own communication.
    IIRC, the ratio is for every one complaint localized or written, there can be construed 26 people with the same complaint who haven’t bothered to share it. That’s potentially a lot of narrow minded people demanding clearer communication.

  156. 156
    ola azul says:

    Wow. Fella visits the land of nod for a coupla hours and wakes to discover he’s the enemy of the people!

    Must confess, find it some remarkable the number of folks who are intimately famiiar with whatta awful no-good writer I am who simultaneously have me in the pie filter. That’sa neat trick!

    @satby: @satby:

    Would not mind that you characterized my response to you the way you did had you done me the courtesy of explaining that you first said I was dumb. And fake. And couldn’t write. And a troll. Repeatedly. But fuck it, thinks I, water under the bridge, right? Let it pass and move on. Since then, I ain’t said word one, to you or about you, deliberately, cuz I ain’t a grudge-holder and I don’t care to engage you.

    It may astonish you to learn I write exactly how I talk. Sometimes more correct, sometimes less so. You don’t like that. Fine. I get that. You don’t have to. Will say: was editor of a national magazine with more’n 200K subscribers at age 25 w/o a J-school degree, so you’re partly right — I do know AP Style and how to talk and write proper. (And how to talk my way into a job I desperately needed at the time!) But I choose not to talk and write proper sometimes cuz I like it. I enjoy it. I have fun with it. It pleases me.

    There’re a lotta things I very much enjoy about this community — it’s a wonderful place fulla very fine folk, on balance — and I have had a number of enjoyable interactions with a number of peeps, and for that I’m thankful. But there is a club, and I ain’t innit. And that’s OK. The world hardly needs another post from poleaxed or ola azul.

    Life, as they say, is short. Just flipped into the half-century mark and my entire family is dead, my wife was killt inna car crash going on 14 year back and my dog of 16 years died right about the time you were telling me how fake I am last spring (Huck made er into the Balloon-Juice calendar, tho! twice! go Huck! July n December! woo-hoo!). But very much on the upside I gotta lotta very dear friends who I love, and they love me, so I cherish that. Life is wonderful, and I try’n fillit with joyful things and pleasurable associations.

    What I don’t want or need is the sort of pile-on this has become. Who knew I was so reviled? (Upside is: more time to read.)

    In any event, to those whose company I have very much enjoyed and still you somehow don’t find my writing odious, thanks. Appreciate the laughs and the insights and the stories. (Always learnt stuff here. It’sa special place.)

  157. 157
    Ruckus says:

    This. This right here.
    Medicare is not a panacea in any way. What it is, is better than nothing. Insurers wouldn’t cover or adequately cover seniors because they all have pre-existing conditions and cost money. But it has nearly failed at it’s job due to rising costs/republican fuckery/not raising the payment income limit. Is it still better than nothing? Yes but barely. As you pointed out it really only works with a subsidy program and with SS payments so low a lot of seniors don’t have enough money each month for that. Good health care that is paid for every month it’s used that doesn’t pay the bills without adding that additional money is well criminal. We either have to have decent healthcare, like the NHS or the VA, or an effective healthcare insurance program for all, a starting basis would be something like the original ACA but which covered everyone no matter the age, with maybe a subsidy out of Medicare funds for seniors below a reasonable income level. (I don’t think we will ever get rid of healthcare insurance, for sure in my lifetime, it’s just too ingrained in our capitalist, for profit society.)

  158. 158
    dnfree says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I inherited a small share in a small apartment complex a couple of years ago. It has been amazing to see how much money comes in vs. how much is taxed. Capital expenses are depreciated over time. Now, this does mean that when the complex is sold, there would supposedly be more taxes due at the time of sale because the tax is on the sale amount minus the depreciated value. BUT, if you inherit, the value resets to what it is at that point! So if you have a rental property worth, say, $500,000, and it has been depreciated down to $300,000, and you die and pass the property on to your heirs–presto! The property is again worth $500,000 and you can start depreciating again! I’d call that a broken tax system.

  159. 159
    PJ says:

    @Yarrow: @rikyrah: As spelled out in Democracy in Chains, by Nancy MacLean, this has been going on in VA since the days of “massive resistance” to segregation in the 50’s, when leading plutocrats and John Birchers decided who would get to teach at UVA. The Kochs didn’t get involved until the 70’s, if my memory is correct, and the system moved to George Mason when UVA decided they had a reputation to protect.

  160. 160
    Kay says:

    @ola azul:

    I think you’re fine and you can write however you want to write. There are people who will read your comments and people who won’t, just as there are people you’ll read and people you don’t.

  161. 161
    JaySinWA says:

    @The Moar You Know: I may have pied him early on, but don’t bother anymore. His writing is basically pre pied. I may read short bits, but generally give up trying to parse after a sentence or two. Others may fish out something useful and comment on it, so I doubt I miss anything.

  162. 162
    chopper says:


    also, medicaid being a state-run system guarantees that right-wing asshole states do their best to cripple it.

    likewise, saying ‘medicaid for all!’ doesn’t go over well because everybody thinks medicaid is shitty insurance for poor people. but yeah, from a coverage standpoint it’s really the goal – everything is covered.

  163. 163
    tybee says:

    @ola azul: some of us don’t mind your ramblings too much…

  164. 164
    satby says:

    @Kay: @tybee: no one wants him* to stop writing. But his preferred communication style gets in the way of people getting his communication. Which is his choice. I’m sure I set people’s teeth on edge often enough. I was just expressing my disappointment that a consistent commenter, who has been asked by multiple people multiple times to drop the affectation, is unreadable to me and why. I didn’t expect that much agreement. I’d like to just read his comments.

    * feel confident he’s a guy by his insistence on sticking with the form after others have mentioned it as an irritant.
    Edited to add: said all I want to say, ever, about this.

  165. 165
    WaterGirl says:


    …feel confident he’s a guy by his insistence on sticking with the form after others have mentioned it as an irritant.

    Let the gender wars begin!

  166. 166
    NotMax says:

    @ola azul

    Certainly never found you (nor suggested you were) odious. Don’t understand, though, the apparent determination to place another filter between the writer and the reader. It’s like making eyeglasses out of cheesecloth.

  167. 167
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @WaterGirl: As a guy, I agree completely with satby’s conclusion. No war necessary.

    And as to the subject, the “style” is an affectation, he knows it’s an affectation, and he knows how to write AP-style or Strunk&White-style or whatever he chooses. He’s made an informed choice that he wants fewer people reading his postings and engaging with them, which is his choice to make. Unfortunately his choice makes comprehension unnecessarily difficult for readers who aren’t native English-speakers but, again, he must know that and has chosen that path intentionally. So be it. Not objectionable enough for pie, but also not interesting enough to make the extra effort needed.

  168. 168
    Kay says:


    The pile-ons are overkill. In my opinion. For a completely unobjectionable person who is commenting on a blog. And this? You really need to call forth a huge group of imaginary people who also object to his comments? Why? 15 aren’t enough? We need an army?

    IIRC, the ratio is for every one complaint localized or written, there can be construed 26 people with the same complaint who haven’t bothered to share it. That’s potentially a lot of narrow minded people demanding clearer communication.

  169. 169
    WaterGirl says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Oh, good. Because there have been way too many fights here — in my opinion — and everyone, including me, seems so wound up that it’s easy to pounce on one another about even smallish differences. Me no likey.

    edit: one need look no further than this thread for case in point.

  170. 170
    satby says:

    @Kay: that’s a standard ratio used in business regarding complaints, which is why included a cite. It was an attempt to illustrate something, nothing more.
    And I spoke about my own communication, I can’t control who else might comment either way. Information can be used, or ignored. It’s the internet.
    But I will reiterate my comment from yesterday that at the rate things are going, we’re all going to need Thorazine drips. Maybe for life.

  171. 171
    sgrAstar says:

    @satby: huh. I found his style tedious at first, but now I’m a fan. His posts can be astute and entertaining…a win all around. He’s our own Riddley Walker. English is constantly evolving- stretching, adapting to new influences. That’s a huge strength, imho. There’s room for all kinds of invention.
    My 2 cents.

  172. 172
    noname says:

    @ola azul: I doubt that you will see this but have been feeling bad about the comments made to you. I’ve seen this kind of mean girl clique-y behavior here before, don’t think it’s specific to this blog but just crappy human nature. But if you’re reviled by certain people you’re probably doing something right. Nice new nym by the way.

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