Tulsi Gabbard Open Thread: At Last, A Brown Female Democrat Steve Bannon Can Embrace!


I know Murphy the Trickster God likes to torture those of us who say “Whichever Democrat runs against Trump, that’s who I’m voting for”… but as R.A Lafferty once wrote: The mountain has labored and brought forth a mouse. Did it have to be a wall-eyed mouse in a clown suit?

On the glass-half-full side, maybe she can lose her Senate seat while she’s failing to get the (D) presidential nomination!

168 replies
  1. 1
    Mike in NC says:

    Never heard of this politician. Apparently a bad one?

  2. 2
    Adam L Silverman says:

    From Gabbard’s aunt:

  3. 3
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    At Last, A Brown Female Democrat Steve Bannon Can Embrace!

    Otherwise known as a useful idiot.

  4. 4
    eemom says:

    She’s a Congresswoman, not a senator.

    And omfg, what a piece of work.

    The cult is a nice touch.

  5. 5
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    It appears as though Bernie’s usefulness to Putin is done.

  6. 6

    Here’s the article mentioned in Gabbard’s aunt’s letter.

    If I read it correctly, she is not of Indian descent, and she belongs to some sort of cult that claims to be Hindu.

  7. 7

    Also, I’ve seen some comments that criticizing her on Twitter draws the bots.

  8. 8
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Joshua Holland @ JoshuaHol
    It was interesting to see Gabbard became a progressive hero for resigning from the DNC to endorse Sanders despite having a pretty bad voting record and all these other red flags with the BJP, Assad, LGBT issues, repro rights, etc.

    I vaguely knew this nut was a hero to emo-left, I couldn’t remember why. Her race wasn’t really on my radar, too bad she didn’t get primaried a year ago

  9. 9
    eemom says:

    Gotta say, she is such a PURE piece of hypocritical shit who is SO blatantly motivated by political self interest and nothing else, she makes Bernie and Jill Stein look like knights in shining armor. Hell, even Gillibrand looks like an ideological zealot.

  10. 10
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: The cult is an offshoot of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness (ISKCON). At its upper levels, ISKCON is an international criminal organization.

  11. 11
    Plato says:

    She sure ain’t nikky haley.

  12. 12
    jl says:

    Suppose Russia is reduced to backing Tulsi Gabbard, whose campaign will go nowhere and barely be noticed, isn’t that a good sign?
    From history, they know that large swathes of the progressive and lefty Dem political spectrum will very likely rat out their feelers to do dirty work to the FBI, since that is that they did in 2016, including Move On and Black Lives Matter.

    The Democratic field will initially be very large, and I don’t see a problem with that, if it gets winnowed down quick. I don’t have ESP, so I’m not going to say absolutely for sure that it being big or small is a good thing. But, the larger the initial field, the less likely any one candidate will get enough share to cause problems later. And, yes, I am thinking about BS, who I did support in the 2016 primary, but I don’t particularly trust him to do the right thing going forward.

    Pretty much any Dem can beat Trump in 2020 if they have the right policy platform and can understand the mood of the country, even HRC (though I doubt she will be in it despite some weirdo political operative rumors I heard a while back). It would have to be HRC with a far different policy pitch and public approach than 2016, but if she could adjust, she could win.

  13. 13
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    and Russian bots

    Speaking of which, I came across the whole “NPC” meme. I found it dehumanizing and stupid. It’s supposedly based on the tendency of “leftists” to mindlessly repeat talking points and is “proof” that they can’t critically think for themselves. NPCs can have a lot intelligence and variation in video games depending on the genre the game is in, and its not like regurgitating talking points is exclusive to the left. And really, so what if a bunch of people use similar arguments? All that proves is that they agree with each other.

    I’ve seen some compare the tendency to call people Russian bots to calling people NPCs. I don’t think it’s equivalent at all, obviously.

    Also too, I came across some other weirdo alt-right crap like Comicgate, which began in 2017 apparently. No idea it had been going on, despite the fact that I follow comics. That’s much different than Gamergate, which seemed to permeate everywhere for like two years.

  14. 14
    debbie says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Huh, so now “charisma” means “pretty.”

  15. 15
    Wag says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Trey Gowdy, the South Carolina Republican, is one of her closest friends in Congress. He first spied her on the House floor, sitting on the Republican side of the aisle.

    An interesting quote from the article. If this doesn’t raise questions, nothing will.

  16. 16
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: She is not Indian. Her father is Samoan from America Samoa and her mother is white/caucasian. And Hinduism, being a primary religion, is not something one can really convert to. ISKCON/Hare Krishnas and the offshoot she belongs to elide that completely out.

  17. 17
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Wag: It’s poorly written, but it is Gowdy who was sitting on the Republican side. From his seat there, he saw her on the House floor. I had to reread it to make sense of it.

  18. 18
    Wag says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Yeah, it is poorly written. I’m more disturbed and disappointed in her choice of friends.

  19. 19
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Wag: I think they’d make a lovely couple.

  20. 20
    Sebastian says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Why can’t one convert to Hinduism?

  21. 21
    Duane says:

    In a sane world, Gabbard would be the screwball on city council, not a US representative. What is this presidential run really about? Must be grifting.

  22. 22
    Joey Maloney says:

    Gabbard is, unfortunately, my Representative. Her last primary opponent was an environmental scientist and organizer with good progressive cred. Gabbard received over 80% of the vote.

  23. 23
    rikyrah says:

    ‘Hamilton’ in Puerto Rico: An opening night with joy, hope and tears from Lin-Manuel Miranda – Los Angeles Times


  24. 24
    HumboldtBlue says:

    Meh, I got pics of an 8-day-old little boy finally in his momma’s arms.

    That’s a good day.

  25. 25
  26. 26
    jl says:

    @Sebastian: I’m interested in Adam’s answer. I’m not sure what he means by ‘primary’ religion. But maybe part of it is, in India, socially, these days, being considered Hindu is tied up in the caste system. You can only be born into a caste, you can’t adopt one.

    And Hinduism is so diverse. Like the ‘religion’ we call Christianity, there is a huge variety of Hindu groups and sects. Right wing nationalistic Hindus would be very legalistic about it, and say if you weren’t born into a caste, then you can never be a Hindu. Very liberal Hindu groups would ask what sacred texts you believe in and what spiritual practices you follow. Some theologians don’t call Christianity or Hinduism a unified single religion because the very wide range of beliefs that fall under those names.

    Edit: maybe someone who knows the religion well can correct me, but I think the caste system is more rigid and important than it was centuries ago. I’d be interested in the history of who could and could not be considered Hindu, if anyone can give a capsule summary.

  27. 27
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Sebastian: @jl: In a purely historic and orthodox (for lack of a better term) doctrinal conceptualization of the religion, Hinduism is based around reincarnation. Specifically, by accruing good karma and burning off, for lack of a better informal shorthand, bad karma over successive incarnations one can, eventually be born as a Hindu. From there as one accrues more good karma and burns off the remaining bad karma, one can be reincarnated into successively higher castes until one is reincarnated as a male brahmin (member of the priestly caste). From there, if one accrues more good karma than bad in that incarnation, one’s next incarnation will be among the spiritual beings and deities. In the historic and orthodox practice of Hinduism one has to be reincarnated into Hinduism/born as a Hindu based on one’s karma from their previous incarnations. As a result, conversion isn’t an option.

  28. 28
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @rikyrah: Why don’t you just stand in front of a mirror and say Mnemosyne three times into it?//

  29. 29
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @HumboldtBlue: Excellent!

  30. 30
    NotMax says:

    @Mike in NC

    Deepest apologies from Hawaii’s 2nd district for her. She originally sneaked in by claiming, sans evidence, to be progressive, avoiding saying anything substantive and touting her military service to the hilt. Never voted for her, proud to say. Believed then, and now, she ran as a D because she knew running as an R here would afford zero chance.

    Her immediate family are all ‘Christian’ RWNJs of the nut jobbiest ilk who run a local chain of ridiculously overpriced health food/vegetarian stores. Despite her tepid denials of not being that flat out politically extreme, the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. Confident that, nationally, she will get about as far as Stephen Hawking in a three-legged race.

    Has a vanity plate with her first name on it for her tippy-top of the line Volvo SUV.

  31. 31
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    A little while ago one of the jackals was asking whatever happened to all the Hare Krishnas you used to see around airports harassing people.

    Now we know.

  32. 32
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @HumboldtBlue: What wonderful news. You’ve all been in my thoughts.

  33. 33
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks. That is the theological rationale for requirement that one be born into a caste. But, IIRC, the caste system has evolved and changed greatly over the last few centuries. The religion existed long before the current caste system, I think. So, I an curious how the notion of what was required to be Hindu evolved as the notion of who had what kind of caste at birth changed.

    As before, I’d be interested to hear from anyone who knows.

  34. 34
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Joey Maloney:

    Gabbard received over 80% of the vote.

    That’s the power of incumbency. Her father is also a Hawaii politician, serving in the Hawaii Senate since 2006.


    Gabbard rose to prominence for his successful effort to pass a 1998 amendment to the Constitution of Hawaii in 1998 to give the state legislature “the power to reserve marriage to opposite-sex couples”. Gabbard, who was born in American Samoa, is the first person of Samoan descent to serve in the Hawaii Senate. Gabbard’s daughter, Tulsi Gabbard, is currently the Representative for Hawaii’s 2nd district in the United States House of Representatives.

  35. 35
    Martin says:

    Given the 30+ democrats I expect to be running, I give her chances at somewhere around 0% ± 2%.

  36. 36
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:


    but I think the caste system is more rigid and important than it was centuries ago.

    IIRC, the British colonization of India is responsible for this. I could be wrong.

  37. 37
    Martin says:

    @Viva BrisVegas: They’re still around BTW. I see them at work all the time.

  38. 38
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @jl: AFAIK, the caste system is -part- of Hinduism. Originally there were 4 castes: priests (Brahmin), warriors (Kshatriya), traders (Vaiysha), and “the brown ones” (Sudra). There are also “untouchables” who are even lower. Over time, the castes subdivided, but basically, the top three (from what I understand) were the ones who came over the Himalayas and conquered India.

    It’s a religiously-enforced system of apartheid. So you get with it stuff like bans on miscegenation. And maybe things have changed, but even in the 90s there were instances where a lower-caste boy would run off with a higher-caste girl; they’d bring ’em back and string up the boy for sure, sometimes the girl.

  39. 39
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    How do foreigners (who are legal residents/citizens) fit into the caste system in India?

  40. 40
  41. 41
    Chetan Murthy says:


    but I think the caste system is more rigid and important than it was centuries ago.

    That would shock the shit out of me, but then, I only have my parents and Indian-American colleagues to go on.

  42. 42
  43. 43
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @jl: It has, but the underlying religion has not. I’m not the religion police. People can believe whatever they want and call themselves whatever they want. But groups like the Hare Krishnas and the offshoot she belongs to are the exception, not the rule in regard to Hinduism.

    There are two extant and living primary religions: Judaism and Hinduism. Zoroastrianism is a third, but there are so few left that it normally isn’t discussed in the study of comparative religions. What we mean by primary religions is several fold. They are ritually bound by time and space. In other words there are geographic limitations to their ritual observation and these geographic limitations are rooted in history and theology. There are non primary religions that are also bound by time and space. They are also, despite evolving over time to adapt to whatever time period they are in, essentially rooted in the oldest portions of their traditions. Traditions so old that you cannot really refer to them as offshoots. They are also, largely, originally outgrowths of and/or entwined with an ethno-national concept. In Judaism this would be the Israelite tribes and for Hinduism this would be the caste system that developed in antiquity as the Indo-Aryanic peoples and the Dravidians merged.

    Primary or original religions are separated from secondary religions. Secondary religions, which include Christianity and Islam, as well as Buddhism and Jainism and Sikhism, are offshoots of the primary religions. Either clarifying reifications like Buddhism is to Hinduism or hybrid offshoots as Christianity is to Judaism.

    That’s the down and dirty 12:30 AM answer.

  44. 44
    jl says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: Wiki has a short note about the conversion debate:

    I’m curious about the legalistic aspects of official Hinduism in India, and influence of nationalist Hindus.
    I think whether one can convert, at least in the sense of actively participating in rituals and observances, and holding official positions differs radically between different sects. There were some sizable Vedanta temples near where I grew up in the Central Valley, and they served a diverse group. You didn’t have to be born into Hinduism to be part of that.

  45. 45
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chetan Murthy: Me too, but I only have a MA in comparative religion where my major advisor is one of the top Indologists in the US.

  46. 46
    sigaba says:

    I only know about Tulsi Gabbard in from her appearance in the common phrase: “God I hate Twitter, just look at these Bernie-bros talking about Tulsi Gabbard.”

  47. 47
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chetan Murthy: @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: Though, over time, they can negotiate it. The Jews of Cochin basically worked themselves out as within the merchant caste of traders. Of course over time they recreated the caste system for themselves. The result was two sub groups within the Jewish community in Kerala. The White Jews and the Black Jews.

  48. 48
    B.B.A. says:

    Gabbard looks at Mondale losing 49 states and sees it as a challenge.

  49. 49
    rikyrah says:

    The thing is that folks are bringing all kinds of receipts on Gabbard. And, they are just getting started.

  50. 50
    Chetan Murthy says:

    In any case, all of this discussion of Hinduism is kinda moot. Gabbard is a Hindu, like Moonies are Christians.

  51. 51
  52. 52
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Well, excuuusssse me. I did ask for more info from more informed people. I threw out an IIRC on it. Imma gonna wiki it now.
    I will have you know, I’ve read me a big old history of religion in India textbook (a long long time ago).

  53. 53
    Yarrow says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    From that article:

    When Gabbard entered politics, she was only twenty-one, and in those early years she was a social conservative, pro-life and active in the fight against same-sex marriage. She is now pro-choice and pro-same-sex-marriage: on these and other issues, she has evolved enough to be almost—but not quite—at home in the contemporary Democratic Party, which is increasingly progressive, particularly on issues of gender and sexual orientation.

    What made her change?

  54. 54
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @jl: No worries – we’re good. I haven’t taught a religion course in a while, so I’m not up to date on the most recent research, but what I’ve related was what I was taught in grad school. It is also important to remember/keep in mind that my understanding of this is based on being outside the religion and looking in, so to speak, through researching it for my graduate degree in comparative religion. I would fully expect that you would get a different answer from someone who is an adherent of the religion. Finally, religions change a lot once they get to the US. Especially in regards to issues such as membership/who can be an adherent.

  55. 55
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:

    @Chetan Murthy:
    I guess my question is how the caste system in Indian society could affect the rights and opportunities of non-Indian legal residents/naturalized citizens.

  56. 56
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷 says:


    What made her change?

    She wants to be president. That’s why.

  57. 57
    Amir Khalid says:

    A desire for votes?

  58. 58
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Some scholars quoted in the wiki article on history of the caste system think the modern form emerged sometime between 1200 and 1500. And that before then, not consistently part of a rigid social hierarchy. I admit that is going back so far, not of much practical significance today.

    Caste system in India

    Edit: So, I think overall, my IIRC is C, but I forgot how old the current system is, and I thought it formed more recently.

  59. 59
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Yarrow: She didn’t so much change as recognize she needed to recharacterize her views to get elected. Grifter and (at best) RU useful idiot. Also she only plays a Hindu because she thinks it could be an advantage.

    Though the discussion of Hinduism is interesting nonetheless.

  60. 60
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @jl: I’m aware.

  61. 61
    Duane says:

    @HumboldtBlue: That’s great news! Thanks for letting us know.

  62. 62
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳🌷: It’s pretty hard to emigrate to India unless you have $$. I remember reading about some white guy who went there, tried to get a job as an IT guy, and how difficult it was. Typically for white people you better have money, and if you do, well it’s all fine. India was (from what I’ve read, still is) a very racist place towards Black Americans and Africans. I think Adam could probably fill in some detail, but basically, there are “settler societies” and “not that”. And settler societies tend to have birthright citizenship, where the others don’t. India (from Wikipedia) doesn’t have birthright citizenship.

  63. 63
    ruemara says:

    I’m gonna give her a solid “no”.

    @Yarrow: The knowledge that she couldn’t get donors or win with the positions she originally held.

  64. 64

    @Yarrow: The D party in general was getting very liberal on “social issues” at that exact moment. She’s sounded pretty homophobic in the past and I suspect still is, so yeah, raw politics, played brazenly.

  65. 65
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @HumboldtBlue: I got pics of an 8-day-old little boy finally in his momma’s arms.

    Good news, here’s hoping the little guy goes home soon

  66. 66
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chetan Murthy: I think Schrodinger’s Cat would probably be the best person to ask about this specific issue. Also, for an insider’s understanding of Hinduism. If I’m recalling correctly she’s Hindu, not Buddhist.

  67. 67
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: If Schrodinger’s Cat sees this thread, I’d be interested in the legal aspects of it in India, versus the broader religious question across different Hindu sects. Like I mentioned above, at the Vedanta temples near where I grew up, the religion definitely came from India, and all the founding bigshots of the temples were from India, most of the congregation were Indian immigrants and their kids. But quite a few native born Americans belonged too, just as much as people with Indian heritage.

  68. 68
  69. 69
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Wow! She’s a uniter: a candidate David Duke and emoprog Chris Hayes can agree on

    David Duke
    ‏ @DrDavidDuke

    God bless Rep. #TulsiGabbard for traveling to #Syria in search of the truth.


    4:35 PM – 19 Jan 2017


  70. 70
    joel hanes says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    There are two extant and living primary religions: Judaism and Hinduism.

    Where does Taoism fit in this scheme ?

    One of my officemates, decades ago now, was an Iran-born Zoroastrian, and ran an email listserve for the Silicon Valley Zoroastrian community — I gathered that there are hundreds of Zoroastrian families here.

  71. 71
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Thanks? Could you ELI5?
    That wiki paragraph really showed that there really isn’t a consensus on conversions to Hindusism in India.

    @Chetan Murthy:

    It’s pretty hard to emigrate to India unless you have $$. I remember reading about some white guy who went there, tried to get a job as an IT guy, and how difficult it was. Typically for white people you better have money, and if you do, well it’s all fine.

    That’s what I was leaning towards. If you have money, you’ll be ok.

    India was (from what I’ve read, still is) a very racist place towards Black Americans and Africans.

    They seem to have it rough pretty much everywhere, don’t they?

    there are “settler societies” and “not that”. And settler societies tend to have birthright citizenship, where the others don’t. India (from Wikipedia) doesn’t have birthright citizenship.

    I think Japan is like that too, although recently they’ve been loosening immigration standards or so I’ve read.

    I guess I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of being a minority in a non-white country; the experience of being the Other. As a white American, I don’t experience that often. I hope I’m not coming across as patronizing or insensitive.

  72. 72
    Yutsano says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Incidentally Adam, your favourite freshman Republican congressman just stepped into it hardcore on Twitter.

  73. 73
    Debbie(Aussie) says:

    Wonderful news! May he continue to thrive and soon be home surrounded by love. Being a very recent Granma, I have been sending good vibes.
    @Adam L Silverman:
    Adam, I just wanted to thank you for the wonderful posts you write, as well as your many comments. You make me feel smart 🙃 or at least very well informed.

    This blog is amazing. I love you all. Please know that this Aussie is right behind you in all your tribulations. We have our own wannabe MAGAts, who, with luck will be voted into oblivion by May at the latest.

  74. 74
    Yutsano says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Incidentally Adam, your favourite freshman Republican congressman just stepped into it hardcore on Twitter. Looks like he deleted it but the Internet is forever:


  75. 75
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @joel hanes: Taoism is sort of strange. I would definitely consider it a primary religion, or primaryish.

    As for Zoroastrianism, there’s a small, but thriving community in the US. I think, and I haven’t looked at the numbers in years, but there are only a handful of families left in Iran where it is, essentially, the original religion.

  76. 76

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    I guess I’ve always been fascinated with the idea of being a minority in a non-white country; the experience of being the Other. As a white American, I don’t experience that often.

    You could always go to a gay bar.

  77. 77
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    Thanks? Could you ELI5?

    I have no idea what that means.

  78. 78
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    being a minority in a non-white country

    There are two versions of that experience: (1) you grow up there, and have no other cultural references; (2) you move there as an adult.

    The latter is infinitely less severe, because your world-view was formed where you originally grew up (hopefully where your ethnicity was just another one, or was the majority). From what my Hawaiian friend told me, Hawaii is a place where whites are very much a minority. He described to me that growing up, he never felt any sort of racism, and only learned about it when he cam to the mainland for college — it was a rude shock.

  79. 79
    Yarrow says:

    Why does Hawaii keep electing her? It’s been obvious for awhile that she’s a Russian asset.

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: Within the US there are plenty of places you could move where you’d be a minority. When you finish your nursing degree you can move anywhere and find work. If you want to find out what it’s like to be a minority in a non-white country, there will be plenty of opportunities for you.

  80. 80
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Yutsano: I think he’s gonna be a lying, camera-hog pain in the ass for a very long time

  81. 81
    Yutsano says:

    @Debbie(Aussie): Y’all have an election in March right? Here’s hoping the Liberals get their asses kicked to the curb this time!

  82. 82
    Cacti says:

    I see Putin is getting his candidates in early.

  83. 83
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yutsano: @Yutsano: I figured that was Crenshaw’s tweet before I even clicked on it. I saw it shortly after he tweeted it. He’s not too bright, he, along with DeSantis and a number of others, are, at least, alt-right curious – he and DeSantis were moderators on that alt-rightish/white supremacist Facebook group for Tea Party/Freedom Caucus types. Unfortunately, his credibility as a tactical special operator, and a combat wounded one at that, is likely to keep him in Congress for a long time.

  84. 84
    Sebastian says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I didn’t know that. Thank you for the excellent explanation.

  85. 85
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Debbie(Aussie): Thank you for the kind words. You are more than welcome.

  86. 86
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: Beinvinido a Miami!

  87. 87
    Plato says:

    Erin burnett on cnn pearl clutching over motherfucker comment. Rep Tlaib politely to go fuck herself. She is very articulate.

  88. 88
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    You could always go to a gay bar.

    I could. But then I would look like a white guy at a gay bar. Story time:
    I knew this guy in my HS Spanish class. He said that if a gay guy tried flirting with him, he would deck him. I said I thought that was an extreme overreaction and suggested that he could just tell the hypothetical gay guy that he wasn’t interested and laugh it off. Some people are really insecure about their sexuality; either that or he was very homophobic.

    Also, you totally made me think of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49rhRF4bkf8

    Electric Six’s “Gay Bar”.

  89. 89

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    I could. But then I would look like a white guy at a gay bar.

    As I assume you are not gay, this would place you in a majority-minority situation.

  90. 90
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Sebastian: You’re quite welcome. This is also where the major initial distinction is with Buddhism. Buddhism teaches, specifically the historic Buddha Gautama, taught that Hinduism’s doctrine of burning off bad karma and accruing good karma to achieve ever higher/better incarnations is, itself, a deception. That the real path was not to seek ever higher incarnations, but to actually seek the obliteration of the self to end the cycle of rebirths. To free one’s spiritual essence from the wheel of reincarnation.

  91. 91
    Fair Economist says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Conversion to Hinduism was more complicated in the past, but it’s now the policy of the BJP party running India.

  92. 92
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, an Iraq War veteran, issued a scathing assessment Tuesday of President Obama’s refusal to utter the words “Islamic extremism”

    She went on Fox and attacked him for not using wingnut magic words.

  93. 93
    Debbie(Aussie) says:

    @Yutsano: election date is a bit up in the air. LNP(liberal & national coalition) has moved the budget forward from May to March, with plans to attempt to buy votes. The election must be held no later than May. They are currently a minority government, two short, with no plans to sit before the budget. So not really governing at all. We lefties are hoping that they can be forced into an early election. So we can kick them out. Of course I am not at all partisan 😉

  94. 94
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: “Primary from the left; primary from the left; primary from the left”. AOC needs to get on this case!

  95. 95
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Well sure. But it wouldn’t be obvious. I could still blend in. It wouldn’t be as much of a culture shock as if I was on North Sentinel Island or in India for example.

  96. 96
    eemom says:


    Yaaaaaay!!! So happy to hear that.

  97. 97
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Fair Economist: Well that settles it then. I can now go to bed and sleep soundly.//

  98. 98
    Fair Economist says:

    Dangit, I’m getting ads for Russian ladies now. Trump can’t get out of office too soon.

  99. 99
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    That’s true. Philadelphia is evenly split between whites and African-Americans. There are certainly areas in the US where you can be white and be a minority. Even experience non-institutional racism. But those places would still be distinctly American. I can imagine that it would be a minor nuisance to be constantly mistaken for a tourist just because of my race. Getting married might also be a problem.

    @Chetan Murthy:

    I wish the mainland could be more like Hawaii.

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Explain it like I’m 5.

  100. 100
    Sebastian says:

    Because it was mentioned, the two types of birth citizenships are ius soli and ius sanguinis (law of soil and law of blood).


  101. 101
    Pete Downunder says:

    @Debbie(Aussie): At some point we need an Aussie meet up. There are at least two of us (judging by her nym) in Brisvegas; not sure where you and the others are.

  102. 102
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    I could still blend in.

    Have you ever been? I remember when I first went (back in 1987) that it was profoundly unsettling for a Texas small-town boy. Eventually I found it kind of liberating: there was nobody there I could hit on, so I felt no shame at my inability to do so. So me and my friends could just dance, which was really nice. But at first, it was *preeeeeetty* unsettling.

  103. 103
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    Awesome! Glad to hear it!

  104. 104
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Chetan Murthy:
    I haven’t. Full disclosure: I’m straight.

    Did anybody try to hit on you?

  105. 105
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    I wish the mainland could be more like Hawaii.

    Come to California; we’re gettin’ there. [And yeah, I know it’s more expensive. But hey, freedom ain’t free, my brother!]

  106. 106
    eemom says:

    @Pete Downunder:


    I am so ignorant. Didn’t know this was an actual place; thought it was something that — coincidentally — 8 day old boys in Nevada had to deal with.

  107. 107

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: Gay bars are not simply bars with gay people in them, you know.

  108. 108
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: *grin* Y’know, if it’d happened, I’d have been flattered. But no, never did.

  109. 109
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Major Major Major Major: At least in my partying days, we’d go to the local one b/c the music was better and the crowds were less ….. frat-bro-tastic.

  110. 110

    @Chetan Murthy: gaydar is very real! My only ‘straight’ friend who consistently gets hit on in gay bars is more of a Kinsey 1.5.

  111. 111
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: I would never explain this stuff to a 5 year old.

    Basically the culture within Kerala among the majority Hindu population was so socially strong, that the Jewish community there partially assimilated. Since much of the community was originally established for trading purposes, they considered themselves and, ultimately, were considered to be analogous to the trader/merchant caste. And because caste stratification was so powerful, and often contained an element of ritual and social purity to it, the older portions of the community/the descendants of the oldest Jewish immigrants to Kerala considered themselves to be higher in terms of status than the more recent arrivals/the descendants of the more recent arrivals. And the referents used were to the White Jews and Black Jews of Cochin. Here’s several books by my major advisor. The last three were coauthored with his wife.




  112. 112
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Pete Downunder: TheMightyTrowel is down there as well. When she’s not off digging in the dirt somewhere. I think there are about half a dozen of you that comment regularly.

  113. 113
    sm*t cl*de says:

    The mountain has labored and brought forth a mouse. Did it have to be a wall-eyed mouse in a clown suit?

    I do not recall that exact phrasing from the Lafferty canon and I must ask for a citation.

  114. 114
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    Does anybody remember those Series EE Patriot Bonds? My step grandfather bought me like $450 dollars worth, each $50 (at face value) between 2002 and 2010. I hadn’t thought about them in years. Too bad they’re not worth the bother today.

  115. 115
    Yutsano says:

    @Debbie(Aussie): @Adam L Silverman: @Pete Downunder: Maybe, once I get back to a paid status, I can make a sweep through Australia and New Zealand. I have this weird urge to see Canberra. Plus I do have to verify our Aussie Juicers.

    Also Adam, although she hasn’t been on in a while, Sister Sarah the Proud and the Tall is from Down Under too.

  116. 116
    Pete Downunder says:

    @eemom: it’s Aussie slang for Brisbane, QLD. It’s about the only capital city that has a nickname.

  117. 117
    Pete Downunder says:

    @Yutsano: Canberra is really dull. The War Memorial is about the only thing worth seeing. Sydney or Melbourne more worth your time.

  118. 118
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    This is the part where I admit I’m talking out of my ass. I’ve never been to a gay bar. I only meant that I wouldn’t immediately stand out.
    @Chetan Murthy: I’ve technically been propositioned (sp?) but the guy was kinda ugly and weird so I wasn’t flattered lol. But I was nice about it.

    I’ve thought about moving to Cali before. I’ll have a lot of options, assuming school goes alright for me.
    @Adam L Silverman:
    Thanks! I didn’t understand at first how your explanation related to my comment.

  119. 119
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Pete Downunder:
    Is Perth worth visiting? I’m just asking to ask.

  120. 120
    Debbie(Aussie) says:

    @Pete Downunder:
    Ipswich Qld 🙂

  121. 121
    akryan says:

    Remember, she was also endorsed by ancient GOP Alaska Rep. Don Young when she ran for Congress. That should have raised some red flags since he was so crooked that he was stripped of seniority by his own party. He’s the longest serving member of congress and his own caucus still won’t give him any chairmanships anymore. That is who she was endorsed by and she gladly took the endorsement.

  122. 122
    RobertDSC-Mac Mini says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Explain It Like I’m 5 (years old).

  123. 123
    Slightly_peeved says:

    @Pete Downunder:

    Apart from Radelaide.

  124. 124
    Pete Downunder says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: Perth is a nice city with a fair bit of mining money. It’s a long way from anywhere else. Most remote state capital in the world.

  125. 125
  126. 126
    Pete Downunder says:

    @Slightly_peeved: never heard that

  127. 127
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Pete Downunder:
    Cool. Thanks for the info!

  128. 128
    Sab says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Maybe for some. If gaydar was real, I am pretty sure I wouldn’t have married my first husband.

  129. 129
    Slightly_peeved says:

    @Pete Downunder: it’s hasn’t got quite the traction Brisvegas has yet

  130. 130

    @Yutsano: If you caught On The Road for the past couple of months, there’s been some pics from New Zealand and Australia. There may be some pics from Australia this Wednesday.

  131. 131
    Peale says:

    @jl: technically, we’re all Hindus in the sense that we’re all subject to reincarnation. As are all sentient and non-sentient beings. We just aren’t really going to make much progress until we’re luck enough to be born in India. My guess is that if I did believe in reincarnation, I’d probably do my best to participate in whatever Hindu practices I could so that I wouldn’t be reborn as an abolone. I mean, at least give me a shot at remaining human for a few cycles.

  132. 132

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    I’ve thought about moving to Cali before.

    OK, let me help you out here…NOBODY here says Cali, NOBODY*.

    *This is how we know you’re a tourist.

  133. 133
    Sab says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Please tell me how you pronounce Nevada (that state next to yours.) Californians really have no right to mock others about pronouncing place names.

  134. 134
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Ha! Funny.

    I love gay bars. Cattiness exists, to be sure (straight or gay, ever’body inna bar that’s on the make is only innerested in “am I gonna hook up?”), but being (for good or ill) hardwired hetero, have found can decline a proposition with (I hope) grace and equanimity. No thanks, no judgment.

    What there ain’t inna gay bar, much if at all, is that aggro dickhead vibe you oft get atta (specially shitkicker) straight bar, where (and I have) you might getta pool cue whacked at you. We gotta version of that in Sitka, and it’s mostly fine, but there’re nights, specially in summer when the winds are ragng and everyone’s in town, when the aggro spills over and testosterone holds sway. Have helped to break up several fights, not cuz I give a shit about the combatants, but cuz I value and care for the ladies who run the place who gotta try’n contain the chaos. Worst I got is a bloody nose, and being God’s own fool, I count that a victory.

    But if you wanna groove and shake what yer mamma gave ya in uncomplicated accepting bliss, there ain’t nothing quite like a gay bar.


  135. 135

    @Sab: That’s different!

    ETA: I don’t live in Nevada, they are welcome to correct me if I mispronounce their state’s name. But we’re not not even talking about mispronouncing California, we’re talking about an abbreviated name that NOBODY here uses.

  136. 136
    Sab says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Of course it is.You guys also slaughter the name of my home town (Akron) but apparently back in the distant past you had a department store chain that also pronounced it weirdly.

  137. 137
    Sab says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: The only national press people who pronounce Nevada correctly are the correspondents from Univision and Telemundo. I find that hilarious.

    I sort of feel your pain. It’s like LA guys talking about ‘frisco.

  138. 138
    Sab says:

    Correct me if I am wrong, but I always thought “Missouri” v “Missourah” or “Ohio” v “Ohiah” was just intrastate regional accent differences, while “Nevaada” v “Nevada” or “Louisiana” v “Lousana” or “Oregahn” v ” Oregan” were actual mispronuciatians. Also, I grew up in Florida. In English is it pronounced “Florda” or “Florida”? In English I think the former, in Spanish the latter. Is that just old outdated me?

  139. 139

    @Sab: My dad was from Southwest Missourah. Though according to Ozark Hillbilly, the current pronunciation is Missery.

  140. 140
    Sab says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I did not want to go there ( pronouncing MO). My mother always pronounced Ohio as “Ohoho”. She was a mostly lifelong native, and did not mean it respectfully. Both loved and hated the place. Kind of like Goku.

  141. 141
    NotMax says:


    Have heard it pronounced Flowda when was there last. Granted that was close to half a century ago.

  142. 142
    Sab says:

    @NotMax: That’s about when I left. We pronounced the r because my folks were Yankees and didn’t know any better.

  143. 143
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: The Nine Distinct States That Make Up Missouri

    I reside in the region known as Meth-o-potamia

    CAPITAL: Crystal City
    OTHER CITIES: Bonne Terre, Potosi, Cape Girardeau
    MOTTO: “A thousand-dollar car, it ain’t worth shit.”
    ATTRIBUTES: Lead poisoning, cave raves, death row
    FAMOUS INHABITANTS: Rush Limbaugh, anybody who was executed
    EXPORTS: Rocks and minerals, bad teeth Just as the land between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers is thought of as the “cradle of civilization,” this stretch of land between the Meramec and Mississippi rivers is a fertile valley of its own — especially for meth makers. Few other places in the world have as many meth-lab busts as Missouri’s Meth-o-potomia. But that’s not all this region has going for it. It’s also home to lead mines, countless roadside firework stands (as well as the band the Bottle Rockets) and Missouri’s death-row prison. Yes, for an unfortunate few, Meth-o-potamia may not be a favorite place to visit, but it is the last.

  144. 144
    NotMax says:


    Leave us not forget Sick River Junction, site of the Missouri State Home for the Tall.


  145. 145
    Anne Laurie says:

    @sm*t cl*de:

    I do not recall that exact phrasing from the Lafferty canon and I must ask for a citation.

    What’s the Name of That Town?“, short story in Nine Hundred Grandmothers.

    Quoted from memory, but I read NHG when I was a teenager & such phrases stick. IIRC, the complaint comes when the researchers discover that the major city mysteriously destroyed & universally forgotten was called “Chicago”. Such a ridiculous, unbelievable name! Obviously a dumb hoax!

    (The irony level of you, a Lafferty aficionado, questioning me over a Lafferty story about forgetting, is… very Lafferty, yes?)

  146. 146
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:


    Million years ago, back when pteradactyls soared over the earth, I usedta be gainfully employed at the 20thCentury Bldg. (mighta updated, been awhile) in Kansas “Hello-may-I-help-you-please” City. I remember rilly big trout in the White River (and the Norfolk and others) down Arkansas Ozark way, all a result of tailwater flows (for good or ill) from dams (usedta be bass and catfsh country; still is, further downstream from cold water outflows from dams). I remember how, in Europe, usedta rent cars and drive fast cuz in the mountains weren’t no Polizei or obstacles anywheres ‘cept in the cities, and how alla the dangers were constricted to city to city, in pointed contradistinction to drivng in ‘Murica where there was a chicken here n a child there n a deer next and always some reason to not drive fast.

    “Our mountains ain’t high, but our valleys damn sure is deep” was the saying as I recall it.

    Speaking independent of meth labs and goober enclaves, it’s assuredly wonderful country.

    imo, fwiw

  147. 147
    Aziz, light! says:

    @Sab: It’s pronounced Oragun with an uptick toward “gehn.” I moved here from Nevada which no Nevadan calls Nevahda, and I hail from Missouri, its name in larger urban areas but not out in the sticks. Missouri politicians change their usage depending on who they are speaking to.

    Why can’t entertainment and news people in neighboring California learn how to say Nevada? This has always stumped me. They will even mix pronunciations within the same production.

  148. 148
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Aziz, light!:
    Someone from Misery should not complain about other state pronunciations.

    I kid, I kid.

  149. 149
    evodevo says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: And then there is Nevada, MO, pronounced NeVAYda lol – I had a great uncle from KS who lived there for awhile…

  150. 150
    Suburban Mom says:

    @Aziz, light!: In the Nabokov novel Ada there is a passage about how the eponymous character’s name is correctly pronounced to rhyme with Nevada. It never occurred to me until now that A) this could well have been authorial sly humor, and B) I’ve been mispronouncing both for decades. Amazing what one can learn from Balloon Juice.

  151. 151
    Matt McIrvin says:


    Suppose Russia is reduced to backing Tulsi Gabbard, whose campaign will go nowhere and barely be noticed, isn’t that a good sign?

    I no longer feel capable of predicting whose campaign will go nowhere and barely be noticed. In our last presidential cycle Bernie Sanders was a major contender and Donald Trump was elected President. Any sane political analyst would have considered both of them no-hopers before the cycle began.

    I’ve been wondering what incomprehensible political wild card, what random piece of crazy shit, will happen that gets Trump reelected in 2020. Tulsimania might be it.

  152. 152
    Ásta Sveinsdóttir says:

    OT: A Balloon Juice post with an R. A. Lafferty quote?! My cup runneth over.

    I found out about Lafferty’s writings through Neil Gaiman’s love of him. They’re some of the most bizarre and wonderful things I’ve ever read. Nice thing is his short stories are no longer hard to find: https://thebooksofsand.000webhostapp.com/index.html

  153. 153

    @Adam L Silverman: Actually that’s the goal of Hinduism too, to be free from the cycle of life and death. Hindus call it Moksha, and Buddhists, Nirvana. Reincarnation is what fascinates folks in the west, aw look at those silly peeps who believe silly things unlike our superior Jesusy religion but it plays almost no part in how Hinduism is actually practiced.

  154. 154
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Sab: Fortunately we have no such ambiguities in the Old Line (aka Free) State whut donated its territory to form half of the District of Columbia (which became all of the D of C when Virginia backed out of the deal). The name of our state is pronounced Merlin; its largest city is Balmer but its capital is Naplis. And just as all CanEhJen interrogative sentences are grammatically incomplete without the “, eh?” at the end, all sentences in Merlin addressed to a fellow human bean (of either gender) is required to conclude with “hon” (pronounced “Hun”). Finally, let it be known from this day forward that the city of Balmer is the only place in the risible universe where the main occupation of a paramour is to mow the lawn… :^D

  155. 155

    @jl: I am headed out right now but I will try to collect all the questions and try to answer them as best as I can later.
    Caste in India is a huge issue. Its complicated. There are regional differences and the thing to remember is that the minority religions of India (Christianity, Islam) , practice their own version of the caste system. There is an overlap between caste and class. Caste is to India what race is to this country.
    ETA: The way it is perpetuated and it persists is through endogamy. Marriage within the caste group.
    The Constitution of independent India bans discrimination based on caste. If anything BJP wants to gloss over caste differences and present itself as the united voice of all Hindus.

  156. 156
    Haroldo says:

    @Pete Downunder:

    As a former Canberran, I call bullshit. It’s a subtle town, in many respects, plus the bush surrounding it is full of delights.

    This is not to dissuade anyone from visiting Sydney or Melbourne, but simply a reminder to keep one’s eyes open (and one’s prejudice in check) when visiting the Australian Capital Territory.

  157. 157
    Rmirth says:

    Guys, there are lots of Muslims, Christians etc in India. Not just Hindus. There are lots of refugees from Tibet, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka etc whose children, grandchildren are Indians. Plenty of non-hindus in India. I haven’t looked it up but pretty sure caste us not part of a citizen’s legal identity. Its social esp in rural and small towns.

  158. 158
    Sebastian says:


    Yup, the only accepted abbreviations are NorCal and SoCal.

    Btw, I work in your hood, Bill.

  159. 159
    Arclite says:

    Her father Mike is a well-known homophobe here in Hawaii. I think she’s been caught saying such remarks as well.

    On the other hand, progressive punch gives her a score of 92.

  160. 160
    J R in WV says:


    Sp glad to hear it! And 8 days isn’t very long at all for a medical miracle.

    Consider where science has brought medicine just in our lifetimes! As a person born in 1950, I have witnessed the end of polio, was among the last to be vaccinated for SmallPox, seen heart (and many other organs) transplants become a relatively common therapy, and many cancers are now just another illness to be treated.

    But some theocrats and conservo-nut-jobs still attempt to deny science as a solution to problems, until they receive a diagnosis of prostate cancer, etc. Then they shut up until they are cured, at which point they thank Gawd, loudly, and don’t say much about the cutting edge therapy they received at no cost to themselves. Rat-bastids, everyone of them all.

  161. 161
    George says:

    @Matt McIrvin: I think Gabbard will do whatever she can to discredit the more legitimate Democratic candidates and also may very well run as an independent or the nominee of the Green Party in the general election. Why? Because that would allow her and her international Daddy Warbucks the opportunity to cause the most chaos and to bleed away votes from the eventual Democratic nominee.

  162. 162
    J R in WV says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    …Finally, religions change a lot once they get to the US. Especially in regards to issues such as membership/who can be an adherent.

    In my observation, in America, anyone who can donate a substantial sum on monies to a given religious group (sect, cult) will be welcomed with open arms, so long as the money spigot continues to run full-tilt.

  163. 163
    J R in WV says:

    @J R in WV:

    Can’t edit! “You do not have permission to edit this comment!”

    But to add, perhaps I am a bit cynical about organized religions with overhead for the church/temple/mosque, etc.

  164. 164

    @Rmirth: Caste is not a part of your official identity in India for any citizen. Although government and other entities do collect data on it, like data is collected here about your race. Its optional and you can leave it blank if you want to.

  165. 165
    J R in WV says:


    I worked with an Indian man, who introduced us to his wife as a more beginner software developer, working with his guidance. He was a master of the art. They were in America because they would have been killed in India — he was a Hindu and she was Muslim, and neither family was willing to see that go down.

    So they live in America, were green card holders way back then, I’m sure citizens now. They moved to California, and I’m sure are doing very well, as both were very bright, talented, friendly outgoing people. A really happy ending to what would have been a tragedy had they been trapped in India.

    IIRC they met at a high-end university, how else? Study group probably, best way to meet smart people at college was study group for a hard class.

  166. 166
    sm*t cl*de says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    Quoted from memory, but I read NHG when I was a teenager & such phrases stick. IIRC, the complaint comes when the researchers discover that the major city mysteriously destroyed & universally forgotten was called “Chicago”. Such a ridiculous, unbelievable name! Obviously a dumb hoax!

    AL is correct – page 279 in the Ace edition.
    My memory got all hung up on another bringing-forth-a-mouse phrase, in “Slow Tuesday Night” from the same collection.

  167. 167
    sm*t cl*de says:

    @Ásta Sveinsdóttir:

    Nice thing is his short stories are no longer hard to find: https://thebooksofsand.000webhostapp.com/index.html

    Oh thanks!
    It has always bothered me that in the Ace edition of “Polity and Custom of the Camiroi”, the list of 10 fundamental debating arguments is truncated, omitting #6. This e-edition provides the complete list.

    “Polity and Custom” is of course the source of Anne Laurie’s occasional phrase “A legend told with the tongue so far in the cheek that it comes out the vulgar body aperture”,

  168. 168
    Rob_in_Hawaii says:

    @Yarrow: Q: What made her change? A: Naked political calculation.

Comments are closed.