Open Thread: Elizabeth Warren for President(ial Candidate)!

I’m selfish enough that I’d love to keep Warren as my own personal Senator, yet I’d be perfectly happy to see her in the Oval Office (and not just because we’d all be happy to see any Democrat in the Oval Office, considering the current squatter). But it’s not a small thing that every minute the Cosplay Socialists and their MAGAt playmates and the Media Horse-Race Touts spend attacking Warren — Pocahontas! Schoolmarm! Fumbling! SKREEEE! — is a minute they’re not targeting Kamala Harris / Kristen Gillibrand / Amy Klobuchar / Beto O’Rourke / AnyOtherDemocraticCandidate. I wasn’t 100% convinced about her potential candidacy until I attended one of her (many) town halls last fall; she’s damned impressive in person, and I suspect a lot of the Savvy Cultists are gonna be unpleasantly surprised at how many primary voters aren’t impressed by their ‘wisdom’ regarding her.

What I see as her greatest liability, right at this moment (apart from interference by foreign nationals, of course) is that Warren seems like she could lose the nomination and happily go back to her objectively pleasant life with no regrets. There’s a bias, among the media and it *seems* among the most committed primary/caucus voters, to assume that any candidate who won’t wake up suicidal the morning after their loss is a candidate who ‘just doesn’t care enough’. Which is, IMO, no doubt a good way to pick this year’s winners for The Voice or Dancing with the Stars, but a very bad way to pick one’s leaders…






117 replies
  1. 1
    Adam L Silverman says:

    What I see as her greatest liability, right at this moment (apart from interference by foreign nationals, of course) is that Warren seems like she could lose the nomination and happily go back to her objectively pleasant life with no regrets.

    This is actually a good thing. It will provide her with a degree of freedom that, if she’s strategically apt, she can use to her own advantage.

  2. 2

    Following up on the Louie CK discussion earlier today, here’s a Cole/Cracker-worthy epic beat down.

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2234949030117865&id=100008083698763

    Definitely worth reading the whole thing, but here’s a sample:

    Louie, buddy, and all you square, straight, safe, whining little fucking anti-pc warriors, those kids are doing something crazier, braver, and more rebellious, than you ever dreamt of doing in your entire, twerpy, jerk off life, thumbing their nose at authority and flipping off power in ways you never had the guts to do.

    You know it. That’s why it drives the people like you, the people who should actually know better, so fucking nuts.

    You know fucking well they’re living the way you never had the guts to live. While you’re sneaking around behind locked doors, victimizing women with your tepid, whitebread little dickpulling kink, while your shitty fans are getting all “crazy” “doing jello shots”, these kids are out there fucking who they want, how they want, doing the drugs they want, having the genitals they fucking want, being who they want, and demanding to be treated like human beings while they do it all. You know it. All fucking day, all year, everywhere they go.

    That’s rebellion, right there, you scared old wannabes. The rebellion that you never had the courage to live, the rebellion of being yourself, not lurking around in closets forcing yourself on people, but being you, in the open, unashamed. Those are the real rebels, that’s the real rebellion.

    And it kills you to see it.

    So go ahead and try to console yourself and all the other scared, well-fed, little squares about what a bad ass you were when you were a kid, I guess. Knock yourself out. But don’t try to run that shit around me. I knew the badasses. I was there, motherfucker. I didn’t see none of you around, anywhere. None of you.

    Those kids who want you to call them “they”, they’re the badasses now. If you’d been one then, you’d know it.

  3. 3
    Cathie from Canada says:

    One issue about Warren that I have not seen discussed anywhere yet is that most of Wall Street, the financial services industry and their media must hate her, They will not want her to become president, they have a lot of money and political influence, and they will be working hard against her, I think.

  4. 4

    who will dare go after it?

    Okay, this is going to blow your mind, Dave, but Democrats are the party of NOT being racist. I’m not saying we’re unsullied here, but whether or not Trump is involved, calling someone Pocahontas or attacking them for how strong their minority ancestry is will not go over well with our voters.

  5. 5
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    Trump basically called Warren crazy today. Classy guy.

    Second, she is going to eat a lot of Sanders support and I’m very petty when it comes to Bernie Sanders

    Unfortunately, she has lady parts.

  6. 6

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    Unfortunately, she has lady parts.

    In this case, it doesn’t matter. The jackasses who care are unwinnable anyway. What’s important is stopping Sanders from convincing idealists who hate the rich that the Democratic Party is cheating them. Warren can make giant inroads on that group and lose gracefully rather than encouraging her followers to believe conspiracy theories.

  7. 7
    Another Scott says:

    Warren got my support early on in her exploratory days for her Senate run, and she’s done a good job there.

    So, I kicked in some to her new effort as well.

    Dunno who I’ll be voting for when the primaries roll around – it’s a long way off – but she’s worth some cash now. We’ll see what tomorrow brings.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  8. 8
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I agree, and I hope it is true. The ‘degree of freedom’, or maybe better expressed as a kind of guard rail, is that it will keep her from doing stupid political stunts that she thinks she has to do in order to win ‘the precious’ office. She has room to be herself, honest, and tell people what she thinks and if they don’t like that won’t stop her. I think voters respect that, and given that they are sick and tired of the politics and business as usual, it will be to her advantage.

    @Cathie from Canada: Yes that is true. And she is more specific about policies to limit corporate abuses of power than anyone else, including brother BS. And humongous corporations are sugar daddies, as is big corporate and individual donor ad money, to the media. So, I predict they will give her bad biased and unfair coverage, and avoid covering her whenever possible. But, I think (hope) that if Warren doesn’t care that much about it, she can overcome it, just as BS did. And BS didn’t really have much of a pitch other than yelling slogans, Warren can do much more than that.

    I wish Warren had run in 2016. I think good she is running now, I think more progressive voices in the campaign the better. We have no idea how she’ll do in national political scene until she tries. I think (hope) most voters don’t give a moldy fig for the nonsense that Politico is peddling. Corporate media and editorally sketchy outfits like Politico (apart from some good reporters) will surely hate her guts, since they are in very tight with the powers that be, and she threatens that, and as president, I can’t think of anyone who would be more effective.

  9. 9
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    Didn’t Warren support Sanders’ conspiracy theories re: the DNC and “riggged” primaries, though? Not that she would necessarily do so as a candidate herself.

  10. 10
    James E Powell says:

    There’s a bias, among the media and it *seems* among the most committed primary/caucus voters, to assume that any candidate who won’t wake up suicidal the morning after their loss is a candidate who ‘just doesn’t care enough’.

    It was the opposite in 2000. Cokie and the rest of the Village were constantly putting Gore down because he really wanted to be president – had plans and everything! Whereas Bush was considered a regular guy, more fit for office, because he would be happy win or lose. Just a West Texas rancher. To this day, I cannot throw up enough.

  11. 11
    jl says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: No one cares about that stuff except political junkies that populate blogs like this. It takes masses of voters to win the primaries and general election, and they don’t care. And I think getting into the issue of exactly what Warren, or BS and his team versus some lunatic die-hard Bernie Bros, or maybe paid trolls, said or suggested or meant by ‘rigged’ is so subjective, the whole topic is just a trap.

    Some history needs to be left history. Good I have to go to sleep now, since there is always a danger of another battle in the endless HRC/BS wars blowing up. Leave it be. It’s history. I’m not going to sniff out the bloodlines and taints of Brown, or Biden, or Warren or Harris or anyone, as long as they behave themselves going forward.

  12. 12
    FlyingToaster says:

    @Cathie from Canada: Wall Street sunk a LOT of money into opposing Senator Professor Warren’s Senate run this last cycle. Huge drivetime radio ad buys (which is when I stopped listening to WBZ, fuckem). It got them precisely nowhere.

    The punditry hate her because she won’t go on the Sunday Shows, she won’t talk with the Capitol press gang in the hallways, she won’t waste her time on finding a camera to get in front of. Add the whole va-jay-jay and being a professor, and it makes the MSM foaming-at-the-mouth crazy.

    Plus SPW knows how to raise money. She got elected here in MA by visiting every DTC in the state (all 351, IIRC). She’ll likely do that with every state D org, and of course the direct appeals to voters everywhere. Let Wall Street chew on that, especially since Trump’s policies are fucking them over.

  13. 13
    piratedan says:

    tbh, her jumping in early is a good thing imho… we can start talking about real economic policy, health care, wealth inequity, reigning in corporate control of the courts and maybe even get the Consumer Protection Bureau resurrected. I expect her to be similar to Hillary in regards to having thoughts and chops and pathways designed to return wealth back to the middle class and maybe even show that white collar crime is still a fucking crime. The other items where she’s not as strong on, well guess what, no one knows everything about everything, that’s why we have staff and advisory positions to be filled by knowledgeable people to help guide us into those waters.

    The media will hate her, wall street will absolutely loathe her and if those are her enemies, that speaks volumes for me, in a positive sense…

  14. 14
    FlyingToaster says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: Not exactly; SPW publicly described the structural biases in the Dem nominating process that put Hillary in a less-than-stellar position in 2008 and Sanders in 2016. But she campaigned for Hillary come fall, in environments where she could help.

  15. 15
    tobie says:

    If Warren is as good in small settings as you say, AL, then campaigning in Iowa would seem made for her. Every four years, we’re treated to pictures of Iowans trudging through the snow to hear candidates in local school houses or in their neighbor’s living room and asking tough questions. Warren’s a wonk so this kind of forum would showcase her talents.

  16. 16
    eemom says:

    She lost me with that Native American DNA bullshit, which was the stupidest, most tone deaf move in recent political history. Just like Wilmer in 2016, she’s the one the republicans are secretly PRAYING will be the candidate.

    More generally, I predict the next two years are gonna be a black hole of circular firingsquadery, making Obama-Hillary 08 and Hillary-Wilmer 16 seem like a genial game of checkers in comparison. It’ll be a miracle if ANYTHING emerges alive.

  17. 17
    jk says:

    To all of you Elizabeth Warren cheerleaders, watch this video

    Native Americans React to Elizabeth Warren’s DNA Test: Stop Making Native People “Political Fodder”
    h/t https://www.democracynow.org/2018/10/18/native_americans_react_to_elizabeth_warrens

    Warren’s decision to get a DNA test was truly fucking dumb and incredibly contemptuous of Native Americans. Plus, she’s too old to be President.

    Kamala Harris, Kristen Gillibrand, and Amy Klobuchar are much more viable candidates.

  18. 18
    Lyrebird says:

    @piratedan:

    her jumping in early is a good thing imho… we can start talking about real economic policy, health care, wealth inequity…

    I’m with you. Her joining the fray will help keep those issues front and center, no matter who does get the nomination. Another thing I like about both Sen. Warren and Rep. O’Rourke is how much they have done for GOTV and/or fundraising for less-publicized races. I suspect some of those newly flipped TX seats were helped in a big way by the O’Rourke campaign, and Warren’s been out there stumping for Sen. Brown and many others, including sharing funds.

    The only presidential possibility where I’m really fixated on a particular name is this one:
    Pelosi 2019!!!

  19. 19
    Mandalay says:

    @piratedan:

    her jumping in early is a good thing imho… we can start talking about real economic policy, health care, wealth inequity, reigning in corporate control of the courts and maybe even get the Consumer Protection Bureau resurrected.

    This. Or more generally, some prominent Democrat jumping in early is a good thing – it didn’t specifically have to be Warren.

    Along with the Democrats taking over the House, this will hopefully prevent 90% of the news (and BJ?) always being about Trump and his Administration. People really do care about stuff like education and health care a gazillion times more than Trump’s most recent tweet, but you’d never know that from looking at what the media covers. And that especially goes for the supposed “good guys” like Hayes, Maddow and O’Donnell: raise your damn game. Doing nothing but perpetually poutraging at the latest scandal in the Trump Administration isn’t just boring now – it’s bush league.

  20. 20
    James E Powell says:

    Anyone who thinks Warren’s Native American issue is not going to be a problem must be completely unfamiliar with the American press/media, especially the New York Times, and how they treat Democratic candidates. You’d have to have lived in a bubble since the 70s not to know that if the Republicans claim something is disqualifying, the press/media will agree and repeat it over and over and over until it becomes accepted as fact that [-whatever-] is a serious problem showing deep character flaws.

    And every time the Democratic candidate addresses [-whatever-] in an attempt to put it to rest the Republicans, the NYT, and every cable news show will respond that “it raises more questions than it answers” and nearly every putative liberal or Democratic pundit, blogger, or random commenter will agree that the Democratic candidate handled it badly and that the bad handling is evidence that the candidate should not get the nomination.

    Did everyone forget that even though Al Gore never said he invented the internet, the press/media repeated the claim that he did almost daily and said that it proved he was a lying braggart who didn’t have the good character of West Texas rancher George W Bush?

    This same @$%&@#!!! pattern has played out in every Democratic primary campaign since 1980. Apparently nobody wants it to change.

  21. 21

    The flying circular firing squad has taken wing.

    Truth is, any candidate who comes out against the financial services industry is going to be attacked. If she’s a white woman, she will be called aloof, cold, and racist. If he’s a light-skinned Jewish man, he will be called racist and sexist. If they’re a person of color she will be called fake middle class. And all the while, politicians who inherit money, marry it, or make it somehow will be let be.

    It seems just so obvious by now, it is always done, and every time enough people fall for it. At this rate we’re going to get some conservative white male mediocrity as the Democratic candidate. We just might get a PoC former prosecutor who I think rather well of, but I’m not betting on it, and any which way we may lose the election against Donald Trump, one of the least qualified Presidents ever.

    Fk.

  22. 22
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    OT: exasperated rant re: “tone police” follows below, feel free to scroll past if so inclined while I relieve some bile.

    Well, that’s one book I won’t be reading.

    Just listent to a (rebroadcast) Terri Gross interview of a historian named Andrew Delbanco, who wrote a book callt “The War Before the War” about the events leading up to the Civil War, with specific emphasis on the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.

    Toward the end of the interview, Terri asked Delbanco about the parallels betwixt that tumultuous time and our own age. Delbanco replied, in paraphrase, that we ignore the harmful effects of incivility at our peril, citing (get this) the “incitement” of belligerent abolitionists in escalating tensions that led to the Civil War. (Inna aside, Delbanco mentioned, presumably to buttress his asinine point about the dangers of incivility, that surely there were some slave-owners who treated their slaves humanely and took offense at the heated rhetoric.)

    What the fucking hell? Incivility! Fer-fucks-sakes. Somehow criticizing slavery is worse than, you know, actual slavery. Ya, that’s the ticket. Had the politicians and citizens of that era only ignored slavery, *surely* they’d have (eventually!) reached a (presumably 3/5 Solomonic) compromise! Even tho the entirety of our history suggests exactly the opposite is true.

    Time for a little Cooper Union reality-check from then-candidate Lincoln (which rather aptly encapsulates the wingnut zeitgeist in any age):

    These natural, and apparently adequate means all failing, what will convince them [pro-slavery advocates]?

    This, and this only: cease to call slavery wrong, and join them in calling it right. And this must be done thoroughly – done in acts as well as in words.

    Silence will not be tolerated – we must place ourselves avowedly with them.

    Senator Douglas’ new sedition law must be enacted and enforced, suppressing all declarations that slavery is wrong, whether made in politics, in presses, in pulpits, or in private. We must arrest and return their fugitive slaves with greedy pleasure.

    We must pull down our Free State constitutions.

    The whole atmosphere must be disinfected from all taint of opposition to slavery, before they will cease to believe that all their troubles proceed from us.”

    If one wishes to preserve an unconscionable status quo, whether by political inclination or a misguided impulse to not offend, then civility is surely your political god. But if one wishes to change an unconscionable status quo, then you must risk being charged with incivility. You might even be called (heaven forfend!) shrill!

    Apparently, in the Delbanco world, to extrapolate his (utterly misguided) point about civility, liberals who make conservatives feel bad about putting children into cages are forcing conservatives to view liberals as the real fascists. Or something. Is there a civil way to object to putting children into cages? The mind fucking reels at the indivisible unconquerable doltish foolishness of concern trolls meekly (or, if in bad-faith, boldly) defending the ramparts of the utterly-beside-the-point civility fortress.

    Civility is yet another red-herring straight outta the working-the-refs playbook.

    Did I mention Delbanco is a historian? Who fucking well oughtta know better? Delbanco’s Very Serious Person reply exemplifies the tone police in all its imbecilic glory.

    Another quote from a guy (Frederick Douglass) who knew whereof he spoke: “Power concedes nothing w/o a demand. It never has, and it never will.”

  23. 23

    @jk: So Native leadership now ends up supporting Trump, who would steal their land and their children. Seriously, WtF?

  24. 24
    laura says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: Call the burn unit! That is beautiful.

  25. 25

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: On civility before the Civil War, I like Joanne B. Freeman’s work, on threats of violence in the antebellum Congress. They were very civil – or else they were called out! Listen to this interview, conducted by Chris Hayes.

  26. 26
    Mandalay says:

    @jk:

    Kamala Harris, Kristen Gillibrand, and Amy Klobuchar are much more viable candidates.

    I’m with you all the way on the age issue, but both Harris and Gillibrand have more political baggage than Warren.

    Klobuchar not so much, but I suspect that she may be viewed too much as a lightweight with middle of the road policies to get the nomination.

  27. 27
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @Raven Onthill: Thanks for recommendation, been meaning to check out Chris n Rachel’s podcasts, so now am doubly motivated.

    Wondering if you are referencing the caning of Charles Sumner on the floor of the Senate by the rep from the South “cradle of American sedition” Carolina, Preston Brooks?

  28. 28
    gwangung says:

    @Raven Onthill: Other POCs see how Native Americans are being treated.

    Just saying.

  29. 29
    Sab says:

    @Mandalay: Hasn’t debit said that Klobuchar’s office sucks at constituent service? That’s a big part of her job, and reflects very badly on her management skills.

  30. 30
    Mandalay says:

    @James E Powell: What you said x 1000. And it’s also worth noting the double standard employed when it comes to Republicans. So instead of pointing out that Bush 2 was an intellectual lightweight (bad), he was portrayed as the kind of guy you’d want to have a beer with (good). In contrast, Kerry was an elitist snob who went windsurfing (bad), so clearly not the type of person that you would be comfortable having a beer with.

    And similar absurd rationalizations get peddled to justify Trump: “they knew he wasn’t a saint when they voted for him…” (so whatever he does is OK), and “let Trump be Trump” (as if that is automatically a good thing).

    Of course these are all carefully honed talking points originally provided by Republicans, but the media is more than willing to embrace them and assume ownership.

  31. 31
    SectionH says:

    @Cathie from Canada: Oh yes – SHE actually was instrumental in getting some financial oversight/rein that they hate. Which addressed a piece of the actual issues the Bernie bros seem to tout. Bernie himself? Actual legislation? Hmmm…

    @FlyingToaster: I’m not on board, mind, but I think the early announcement is fine.

  32. 32

    @gwangung: Yeah. She’s being called out for being racist, when she seems to mostly have been clueless.

    And side with Trump? Really, Cherokee Nation?

    But, as I said, likely she will constantly be called on this, despite alternatives being far more racist. But they don’t threaten the financial services industry, so we won’t hear about that.

    @poleaxedbyboatwork: That’s included, but there was a whole culture of dueling, it turns out.

  33. 33
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mandalay:

    Or more generally, some prominent Democrat jumping in early is a good thing – it didn’t specifically have to be Warren.

    For once, we agree. It’s good to have an early announcer out there to draw some fire and see what the attacks are going to be. I think SPW is going to be able to handle them.

  34. 34
    Fair Economist says:

    @jk: There was nothing wrong with Warren getting a DNA test. Trump lied and she disproved it the only way that is possible. It has nothing to do with tribe enrollment and she said as much. 99% of Native Americans don’t care. Yes, you can find a few dozen whiners to complain, and that means – precisely nothing. You could find enough flat earthers to make a commercial too.

    Don’t amplify the Republican bullshit. Didn’t we learn that with Hillary in 2016?

  35. 35
    Brachiator says:

    How does Elizabeth Warren avoid a Clinton redux — written off as too unlikable before her campaign gets off the ground?

    I must be out of the loop on this, and I thank the Deity for it. I don’t know much about Warren, but I’ve never thought of her as unlikable. Nor do I see her as some lesser copy of HRC.

  36. 36
    Mnemosyne says:

    @gwangung:

    It’s tricky, though, because there is not any other ethnic/racial group where DNA is downplayed so much. If Warren had said she had, say, African-American or Mexican-American heritage, and those tests had also come back positive, I don’t think those communities would have sided with Trump.

    The problem is that the MSM is doing a very poor job of explaining that being Native American is primarily about membership, not race. There are plenty of people who have Native American DNA and the family trees to back it up, but their ancestors didn’t enroll with the government, so they’re not official American Indians.

    And you know what? That’s not a problem. Groups get to define themselves. But I do think that it’s very short-sighted of Native American groups to think that Warren is going to get called “Pocahontas” but, say, Sharice Davids won’t. You can’t leave that door cracked open for racist assholes like Trump, because they don’t give a shit about your gradations and nuance. They’ll just decide that it’s now A-OK to call any woman with Native American ancestry “Pocahontas” because NA groups said it was okay to call Warren that.

  37. 37
    Bess says:

    Could we have a little review?

    Apparently the community in which Elizabeth Warren’s parents lived believed that one side of her family had some Native American blood and treated them as ‘less desirables’ because of that. Warren’s parents had to elope in order to be married because of racial assumptions. This information was passed down and believed. Family myths are hardly anything rare.

    Warren took a DNA test and discovered that she had very little NA ancestry. That’s pretty much the story.

    As for the Democracy Now video, the far left can be as big an obstacle to progress as the far right.

  38. 38
    SectionH says:

    @Fair Economist: “jk” is not our jl.

  39. 39
    Mandalay says:

    @Sab: I don’t know anything about the constituent service issues, but in general aren’t those more likely to be handled by the relevant congressperson rather than the state’s senators?

    The NYT did an article about her a few weeks ago (“Amy Klobuchar Is ‘Minnesota Nice.’ But Is That What Democrats Want for 2020?“) that damned her with faint praise, and mentioned this:

    On Capitol Hill, Ms. Klobuchar’s reputation is not all sweetness and light; she is said to be brutal to work for. A survey of senators by the website LegiStorm found that from 2001 to 2016, her office had the highest turnover, which earned her a prominent mention in a Politico article headlined “The ‘Worst Bosses’ in Congress?”

    Not good, but that’s hardly going to prevent her running for president. And if she’s crafty she can use that to counter the the Republican framing of her:

    “Cotton Candy Amy, because there’s no nutritional value; you put it in your mouth and it melts away and there’s nothing really there.”

    (Also, maybe I’m just being a creepy weirdo, but I really don’t think it’s coincidence that Republicans mention “put it in your mouth” when demeaning a female Democrat. Would they ever criticize a male Democrat in those terms?)

  40. 40
    Brachiator says:

    @jk:

    Warren’s decision to get a DNA test was truly fucking dumb and incredibly contemptuous of Native Americans. Plus, she’s too old to be President.

    You’re joking, right?

  41. 41

    @Fair Economist: DNA testing is a big issue for natives. Some of them hate it. It opens up identity issues, and on top of that it risks allowing white authorities deciding who is a tribe member or not. It is understandable that the Cherokee Nation are sore about Warren’s DNA test, but siding with Trump? Really?

    2005 LA Times story here

  42. 42
    SectionH says:

    @Bess: Well, fuck, damn straight. I long ago ran out of fingers and toes of friends who believe in their NA ancestry in various ways. I suspect they’re often right, even if their Diversity Positive ™ myths aren’t accurate.

  43. 43
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @Sab:

    Hadn’t heard that about Klobuchar, but will offer this bit o’ anecdotal evidence that haven’t heard anyone reference before (it’s a small thing, but I suspect it is reflective of a reflexive impulse toward the chimera of civility):

    During the Rapey McShoutface Senate confirmation hearings, and during Sen. Klobuchar’s questioning in same, there arose a moment when she asked Bart O’Kavanaugh about his drinking. Everyone prolly remembers Kavanaugh’s belligerent accusatory reply, but here’s what stuck with me during that exchange re: Sen. Klobuchar: she gave Kavanaugh an out.

    Just after Klobuchar asked Kavanaugh about whether he had any blackout experiences, and he replied, “I don’t know. Have YOU?!” and Klobuchar, as if talking to a child (which she was), asked rather forthrightly: “Could you answer, judge?”

    An uncomfortable silence followed. Which fucking well should have been allowed to continue — until the man answered the question. Instead, imo, Klobuchar blinked. She broke the silence, helpfully (for Kavanaugh) interposing: “So that’s [blackout episodes] not happened? Is that your answer?”

    No, no, no. Sen. Klobuchar is intelligent and kind and a sterling example (inna non-sarcastic way) of Minnesota nice. But when you got the living epitome of entitled dickish assholery drowning in fail and indicting himself during a hearing for a lifetime appointment, my thought is you do fucking NOT hand him a rhetorical life-preserver but instead hand him the anchor of “Please proceed.”

    I get that Klobuchar was uncomfortable in that moment, and being a kind empathic human being, she prolly reflexively did what she did as part of her nature. But: Fuck. That. Guy.

    So. I will vote for any Dem who gets nominated, but that window into Sen. Klobuchar’s soul spoke good things to me about her basic humanity but bad things about her ability to effectively counter the gooper menace.

    (And as re: the subject of Anne’s post: think it’s an unalloyed good that Warren is running. At minimum, she will help frame the debate inna substantive way, and she might even win the nom. Warren is under no illusions about the obstacles our country faces, or where the roadblocks lie, and yet [ahem] she persists.)

  44. 44
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Brachiator:

    You’re joking, right?

    Let’s outsource this to Ms. Petri:
    I’m fine with women in power, just not this one specific woman currently in power

    I’m a little frustrated that we keep putting forward this specific woman who really grinds my gears. Not because she’s a woman. I would know if that were why. It is not that. It’s just — ugh, her, you know? She just doesn’t excite me, and I feel that she is too compromised. That’s not a woman thing, though. It’s just a her thing. I would have that issue with anyone who had her baggage, that same difficult-to-pin-down sense that something about her was fundamentally tainted.

    All I can say to these NA groups is: “so what was she supposed to do, exactly? Please spell it out, and keep in mind that Shtiler and her other opponents have been slurring her with this for years, going back to Scott Brown. Are you saying that every woman with some possibly-arguably-maybe-in-some-light-problematic issue should go into the woods and never come back?”

    This shit is fucking ridiculous.

  45. 45
    Bess says:

    @Raven Onthill: I wonder if there is any dislike of DNA testing as it conflicts with some Native American creation myths. I’ve seen resistance to the information that First Americans came here from Asia as opposed to being created here.

    That could just be my small sample.

  46. 46
    Brachiator says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The problem is that the MSM is doing a very poor job of explaining that being Native American is primarily about membership, not race.

    There’s nothing much complicated here. Ancestry and tribal membership are too different things. Warren never claimed that she was a member of any particular Native American tribe.

    I guess that Warren might have spoken with tribal leaders to reassure them that she was being respectful of their authority, but otherwise this should not be a big deal. Trump will try to use it to his advantage, but only hypocrites and morons will care about it.

  47. 47
    eemom says:

    The naivete/disingenuousness on display here is mind boggling.

    How, exactly, does Native American disapproval of Warren’s high profile DNA shitshow equate to support of trump?? We’re still in the pre-primaries, remember?

    Also, “amplifying republican bullshit” is what Warren herself chose to do in publicizing that ridiculous test. She played right into trump’s itty bitty hands.

    As for “coming out against the financial services industry” — um, hello, the $$$ is going to fight back against any Dem who does that, whether or not s/he possesses a white pen1s. What we need to do is find a candidate inspiring enough to get the votes in spite of them.

    Finally, this

    What I see as her greatest liability, right at this moment (apart from interference by foreign nationals, of course) is that Warren seems like she could lose the nomination and happily go back to her objectively pleasant life with no regrets

    has got to be the dumbest thing I ever heard, given that the same could be said of every presidential candidate in recorded history.

  48. 48
    jk says:

    @Raven Onthill says:
    Native leadership are not supporting Trump, but are rightfully calling out Warren for her jaw dropping fucking incompetence regarding her claim of Native American ancestry.

    @Fair Economist says:
    “There was nothing wrong with Warren getting a DNA test.” There was everything wrong with Warren getting a DNA test because she revealed herself to be a fucking idiot. She’s kept this issue alive and Republicans will forever hound her.

    @Mandalay
    I’ll take Harris’ and Gillibrand’s political baggage over Warren in a heartbeat.

    @SectionH
    You don’t know what you’re talking about

    Whether you all like or not, Elizabeth Warren has demonstrated massive fucking incompetence regarding her Native American ancestry heritage claim. This issue won’t go away because of her own goddamn stupidity and tone deafness. Her candidacy is toast and she needs to end it and make way for Harris, Gillibrand, or Klobuchar.

  49. 49
    tobie says:

    It’s too late and I’m too tired to think through what it means to claim membership in a community, but one thing that does occur to me is that Warren was born and raised in Oklahoma, where a number of people claim Cherokee ancestry. Until the midterms there were only two members of the House listed as Native American. They were Tom Cole and Markwayne Mullin, both Republicans from Oklahoma and both members of the Cherokee nation. Sharice Davids and Deb Haaland bring the number of Native Americans in the House to four.

  50. 50
    eemom says:

    @Bess:

    There’s also the minor fact that DNA testing is rightly excoriated as providing an excuse for all kinds of horrific discrimination.

  51. 51
    SectionH says:

    @Sab:

    “Constituent” service issues are all about the US House members. If you are a member of the US House of Congress, you are expected to pay attention to the problems of your actual constituents, i.e. the people who you represent.

    Your Senators aren’t. They’re Special. Any BS about what any Senator’s office didn’t do for someone in Minnesota is either from complete ignorance, or deliberate malice. Pick your poison.

  52. 52
    eemom says:

    @jk:

    Her candidacy is toast and she needs to end it and make way for Harris, Gillibrand, or Klobuchar.

    I would totally THIS this, but I can’t stand Harris or Gillibrand either. Especially Gillibrand.

  53. 53
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @jk:

    She’s kept this issue alive and Republicans will forever hound her.

    Oh bullshit. *Shitler* keeps the issue alive. By analogy, do you REALLY think that if Obama hadn’t produced his birth certificate, Shitler wouldn’t be banging on about that to THIS DAY? Fucking Joe Arpaio is STILL banging on about it.

    GImme a fucking break.

  54. 54
    Sab says:

    @eemom: Since when does the tribal government of the Cherokee Nation in Oklahoma speak for all Native Americans everywhere?

  55. 55
    Brachiator says:

    @eemom:

    I would totally THIS this, but I can’t stand Harris or Gillibrand either. Especially Gillibrand.

    So, is there anyone you like?

  56. 56
    eemom says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    She was “supposed” to fucking treat it with the contempt it deserved by ignoring it, instead of fanning the flames of idiocy by engaging with it. Again, she played right into Dump’s tiny paws.

  57. 57
    Bess says:

    @eemom:

    I fail to see a damn thing that Warren has done wrong.

    As soon as Harris, Gillibrand, Klobuchar, Castro, O’Rourke or any other Democrat starts to look like they might be the Democratic candidate the far right will find some sort of issue with them and create a potentially damaging fantasy just like they did with PBO.

    It’s far too early to tell anyone that they need to drop out. Let’s let everyone get on stage and show us what they have to offer. It’s time to stay very neutral, not to join factions.

  58. 58
    eemom says:

    @Brachiator:

    is there anyone you like?

    Excellent question, and that’s exactly why I am in such a shitty mood going into this terrifying new year. There ARE people I like for various reasons, but there is none that strikes me as the kind of candidate we need.

  59. 59
    Sab says:

    @SectionH: Sherrod Brown ‘s office is excellent at constituent service. That is a good thing because my Congressman tries, but he doesn’t seem to have much influence.

  60. 60
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Conservatives still insist that Hillary killed Vince Foster.

    Warren didn’t release her DNA results to appease Trump, any more than Obama released his birth certificate to appease conservatives. She did it for the same reason Obama did: to show normal non-Trumpist people that she is not a liar and that she had proof of her claims.

    And then the Cherokee Nation’s officials decided to step on their own dicks and make it okay for white racists to call Native American women “Pocahontas.” 🙄

  61. 61
    Mnemosyne says:

    @eemom:

    Remember when John Kerry treated the swift boat allegations with the silent contempt they deserved? That sure turned out great.

  62. 62
    Bess says:

    @eemom:

    We need someone who is honest, intelligent, is able to work with others, and is willing to work very hard to put this country back on track.

    We want someone who agrees with our general values which boil down to the guiding principle of the country which is that all people are created equally and deserve the same rights.

  63. 63
    jk says:

    @Brachiator:

    If Elizabeth Warren had possessed a modicum of common sense and never stupidly made a claim of Native American ancestry, we’d never be having this damn discussion right now.

    Donald Trump is a malignant cancer and his presidency is a crime against decency and integrity. We need to find a candidate who can beat him and Elizabeth Warren has shown that she’s incapable of getting out of her own way and yes she is also too old as are Biden and Sanders.

    Anybody but Biden, Sanders, or Warren in 2020.

  64. 64
    SectionH says:

    @Sab: Good for him, but dammit, he’s picking up the slack.

  65. 65
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @jk:

    If Elizabeth Warren had possessed a modicum of common sense and never stupidly made a claim of Native American ancestry

    Alexandra Petri beat you to it, Einstein.

  66. 66
    jk says:

    @Bess:

    It’s far too early to tell anyone that they need to drop out.

    No it’s not.

    Donald Trump is a racist, sexist, Islamaphobe, Anti-Semite, homophobe and a criminal. He’s also in his seventies.

    The Democrats have many viable, capable, qualified candidates who are not in their seventies, so why should we nominate a candidate who is simply too old for this job?

  67. 67
    Bess says:

    If Elizabeth Warren had possessed a modicum of common sense and never stupidly made a claim of Native American ancestry, we’d never be having this damn discussion right now.

    Put the blame on the community where her parents lived before they were married. That’s where the claim of Native American ancestry came from. Warren just repeated a family story that has now been shown to be a bit shaky.

    Do you also think Nancy Pelosi and Ruth Bader Ginsburg should have retired years ago?

    I agree that there might be advantages with a younger person but I’m going to attempt to judge on ability. Age would play a role only if it look like the individual was starting to be impacted by their age. Warren is looking pretty sharp to me.

  68. 68
    jk says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Hey genius, if you want to lose in 2020, go ahead and nominate Warren. I’d prefer to see Trump defeated, so I oppose Biden, Warren, or Sanders.

  69. 69
    Bess says:

    @jk:

    why should we nominate a candidate who is simply too old for this job?

    We should nominate the best person possible. The most highly qualified person who also has the ability to win in the general.

    Trump would have been a bad choice when he was 40, 50, 60, …. There are plenty of people who are crackerjack smart and capable well into their latter years.

    Don’t start kicking people out of the race unless they disqualify themselves. If they are shown to be dishonest, if they can’t deal intelligently with the issues, if they can’t communicate their ideas, if they party too hardy – those are reasons to toss candidates aside.

  70. 70
    eemom says:

    This is kind of what I meant about the black hole into which we are all going to perish.

  71. 71
    jk says:

    In 2013, the overall expectation of life at birth was 78.8 years, unchanged from 2012.
    h/t https://nchstats.com/category/life-expectancy

    Let’s cut this bullshit once and for all, Biden. Warren, and Sanders are too damn old to serve as President.

  72. 72
    Achrachno says:

    @jk: “Anybody but Biden, Sanders, or Warren in 2020.”

    I’d vote for any of those in preference to any Republican known to me. My preference order among them: Wa., Bi., Sa. I like Warren quite a lot and if I could magically select the next president I might pick her.

  73. 73
    Bess says:

    @jk: That gives Warren time to complete two terms.

    You sure you aren’t suffering from the natural stupidity of youth? Friggin’ sophomores who think they know it all….

  74. 74
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @jk: It’s nice how you start with “she’s incompetent” and when that doesn’t work, you switch to “she’s too old”.

  75. 75
    SenyorDave says:

    @jk: Plus, she’s too old to be President.

    So, exactly what i syour cut-off age for POTUS? Maybe 65 is too old to be president, maybe that age should disqualify you from most jobs.

  76. 76
    jk says:

    @Bess:

    Booker, Gillibrand, and Klobuchar are eminently qualified to serve as President. Biden, Warren, and Sanders should do the right thing and step out of the way for a new generation.

  77. 77

    Attacking one of Trump’s opponents supports Trump.

    When the LA Times did their article natives were divided over the merits and uses of DNA testing. They cited one tribe that required it.

    I figure that any potential Democratic Presidential candidate will have some negatives. When the media apply their usual biases I think they will favor some mediocre rich or connected white guy, because that is what they always do.

    Fk.

  78. 78
    CaseyL says:

    I just don’t get the pearl-clutching over Warren’s Native American ancestry. IIRC, she didn’t make an issue of it at all; some RW radio jerk did so, and she responded to that. Ignoring shit like this does not make it go away (just ask John Kerry), so what the hell was she supposed to do?

    Oh, that’s right: Democrats, and particularly Democrats who happen to be women, have to do just the opposite of whatever it was that they did. “Clinton Rules” now apply to all Democrats.

    Thanks, guys.

  79. 79
    SenyorDave says:

    @jk: In 2013, the overall expectation of life at birth was 78.8 years, unchanged from 2012.
    Let’s cut this bullshit once and for all, Biden. Warren, and Sanders are too damn old to serve as President.

    You might want to try looking at it the correct way. Life expectancy for a female, age 69, in the US is approximately 86 years. This includes a substantial amount of people with major health and lifestyle issues (overweight, heart conditions, etc.), which Senator Warren probably does not have. A 71 year old in good health is not too old to be POTUS.

  80. 80
    Mnemosyne says:

    @jk:

    Warren’s parents died at 83 and 88 according to Wikipedia. That’s not extraordinary longevity, but it’s above average. US women have better life expectancy than men at 81.1 years, so I’m more likely to bet on a non-smoking woman’s longevity than a man’s.

    More to the point, it’s too early to rule out any member of the Democratic Party who wants to run. I think 6 solid candidates by November of this year would be an ideal number to run, though I’d be willing to go as high as 8. And the first person to declare is rarely the winner anyway.

  81. 81
    jk says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    She handled the claim of Native American ancestry with great incompetence AND she’s too old.

    @SenyorDave:

    I draw the line at 68 years old.

    You people are fucking pathetic. You have a bunch of great candidates to choose from in their fifties and you can’t stop slobbering over Elizabeth Warren who’s too old and created this goddamn mess about Native American ancestry.

  82. 82
    SenyorDave says:

    @jk: You people are fucking pathetic.

    Always nice to see someone who argues for a while, and when they see that their argument doesn’t seem to persuade or is contradicted by other facts, goes right to insults. Those are the people who are “fucking pathetic”.

  83. 83
    Bess says:

    @jk: I haven’t seen anyone pick Warren over other potential candidates. Everyone except you, as far as I can see, wants to take a good look at everyone who steps up.

    You’ve put people in the position of needing to stand up for her with your ridiculous attacks.

  84. 84
    Mnemosyne says:

    @CaseyL:

    It’s related to a slightly different but annoying problem where white people (including white supremacists) will use a claim of having Native ancestry to run down actual Native American people, usually along the lines of, Well, my great-great-great-grandfather was a Cherokee, but he realized that he would never get ahead by living on the reservation, so he left and made something of himself, unlike those lazy people who still live there!

    The right-wing propaganda machine has done a pretty good job of presenting Warren as one of those types of white people in Native American media, so some people in that community have been pissed off at her claims since at least her first Senate run. Remember, W’s corrupt buddy Jack Abramoff had a lot of business ties to a lot of tribes that wanted casinos, so quite a lot of the leadership is more Republican than one might assume. Note above the two current Native American representatives in the House are both Republicans who are Cherokee men from Oklahoma … which just happens to be where Warren is from. 🤔

  85. 85
    SectionH says:

    There is point when Troll-B-Gone should happen… I think we’re getting there.

  86. 86
    eemom says:

    We’re all gonna die. 😢

  87. 87
    SectionH says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes. And the troll “I don’t know what I’m talking about” which was relating real words my real friends said to me – right. Fuck that troll.

  88. 88
    Schlemazel says:

    @Sab:
    Don’t know debit but I have mentioned that her staff has lied to me when I questioned her voting for GOP proposals. I brought i to her attention face to face & she promised she would look into it. Took my number & made notes. I never heard from her.

    In ’04 she appeared at every Kerry rally & was a firebrand speaker. Since becoming a Senator she has worked on the blandest least controversial things possible. Her performances on the Judiciary committee have been anything but forceful. She will never be my choice in the primaries but I will vote for her if that is my only choice.

  89. 89
    Elizabelle says:

    Do you guys not realize that “jk” is a troll?

  90. 90
    Amir Khalid says:

    For what it’s worth, the kerfuffle over Warren’s native ancestry doesn’t strike me as disqualifying or a sign of political incompetence. It’s not disqualifying because she has never lied about it, nor has she ever fraudulently sought any kind of benefit from it. It’s not a sign of political incompetence that she spoke of it publicly, after someone else had raised the subject. Once the matter was out there, there were always going to be people who would use it to paint her in the worst possible light: politically inept about it, trying to score points with voters of colour, a white person carpetbagging on a claim of Native identity, whatever. Look at her political record: has she been doing such things? To my knowledge, no. When it comes to assessing her on merit as a candidate for President, I just don’t see its relevance.

  91. 91
    Brachiator says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    The right-wing propaganda machine has done a pretty good job of presenting Warren as one of those types of white people in Native American media,

    I don’t think this is what they are doing, but I don’t care about their bullshit. It’s hypocritical nonsense, and unfortunately some tribal leaders are playing into their hands if they persist in attacking Warren.

  92. 92
    Schlemazel says:

    @SectionH:
    Thats funny because I have been involved in MN politics my entire life. My dad was on the State Central committee for years and we had personal relationships with every major DFL pol for years. I know my dad made calls to our COngressman (Keith MN4) to get issues resolved but I heard conversations with McGovern, Humphrey and Mondale asking for assistance on matter of government roadblocks. Paul Wellstone won large majorities of Vets votes despite the GOP trying to label him as an anti-military hippy because he provided great service for vets when asked.

    I think your take is very wrong

  93. 93
    sukabi says:

    @Amir Khalid: I don’t get it either, especially since it shouldn’t matter in the least what your ethnic background is or isn’t.

  94. 94
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @eemom:

    She lost me with that Native American DNA bullshit, which was the stupidest, most tone deaf move in recent political history. Just like Wilmer in 2016, she’s the one the republicans are secretly PRAYING will be the candidate ….

    Completely unconvinced this is true. If the gooper war on Pelosi is instructive (and I think it is), it suggests that gooper’s attack those they fear. It is no coincidence that GOP flaks offered interminable and unflagging “advice” about why Pelosi was a bad, bad, horrible choice to lead Dems in the House. (Bless their hearts, thanks guys!) Why? Because Pelosi is smart, tough and effective. And they know it.

    Like many, I await the primaries with interest and am reserving final judgment till we get a good look at how they all campaign, but I suspect most of the sturm und drang swirling around Warren’s attempt at defining herself is a premature overreaction that fails to acknowledge the “damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don’t” nature of our puerile media environment.

    The fake outrage is to be expected from bad-faith Republicans. It’s their shtick and the media fluffs them every step of the way because the douchecanoe commentariat are, on balance, theater-critic assholes. I don’t like it either, but it is what it is.

    But the hysterical pants-pissing about Warren’s “misstep” from fellow travelers is all out of proportion and rather unseemly. *Every* Dem candidate is (eventually) going to be subjected to exactly the same line of disingenuous attacks (excepting those who are not feared by Republicans and thus not a threat). Every. Single. One. They will all spend time in the same unfair barrel. To me, the more interesting and instructive question is how they handle it.

    imo, ymmv

  95. 95
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Elizabelle:
    And not a subtle one, either.

  96. 96
    Chris Johnson says:

    Bunch of trolls and possibly russians popping up to attempt to manufacture an appearance of consensus against Warren.

    Just like on Reddit there’s a bunch of trolls popping up to attempt to manufacture an appearance of consensus against Beto.

    I’m sure there’s a bunch of trolls on Twitter against all of the above.

    Fuck them all. Pisses me off. I love how we dutifully pretend it’s the circular firing squad when we know it’s enemy action.

  97. 97
    Elizabelle says:

    @Amir Khalid: It’s sickening. I don’t think people here should fall for it.

  98. 98
    Fair Economist says:

    @eemom: DNA testing is not “ridiculous”. It’s a simple and straightforward way to get info about ancestry. The test showed she had a Native American ancestor about 6 generations back. It’s not materially different from a series of birth certificates and indeed is often used where birth certificates are absent or altered. It’s perfectly OK to have a Native American ancestor and perfectly OK to investigate your ancestry.

  99. 99
    Fair Economist says:

    @Bess:

    Warren just repeated a family story that has now been shown to be a bit shaky.

    No, Warren repeated a family story that has now been *verified*, apart from the quibble that the specific Native American ancestor from the story *might* herself only been part Native American.

    Age would play a role only if it look like the individual was starting to be impacted by their age. Warren is looking pretty sharp to me

    My thoughts exactly. Warren will be older than I’d like, but it’s not a dealbreaker, and none of the candidates are going to be perfect in every way.

  100. 100
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Mnemosyne: Something else that’s happening in Native American communities is redefinition of the rules for tribal membership. The leadership of some tribes has figured out that the more people they can find to kick off of the tribal roles, the fewer people the pot of casino money has to be split between. People in this battle absolutely do not want a DNA quantum to get mixed into this; they’re already dealing with people who have “proved” their family stories via DNA testing and want in on the money.

    @SectionH: One of the first things I heard when I moved to NC 30+ years ago was that if you wanted help with something, you called Jesse Helms. At the time, he was the primary politician, either side, with a reputation for constituent services. A number of people had stories of being blown off by the prominent Dems of the time, turning to Helms as a last resort, and his office getting things done no matter your registration. There are a lot of reasons to loathe the man, but he helped people when no one else would.

  101. 101
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @Chris Johnson:

    … I love how we dutifully pretend it’s the circular firing squad when we know it’s enemy action.

    Nice turn of phrase. Don’t entirely agree, tho.

    Will just say this: not discounting the pernicious effects of bots and assorted bad-faith rat-fuckery running wild in the world, but I’m from Alaska. I know, personally, folks who vote Dem who assign undue importance to the vicissitudes of unfair media coverage such as we’re seeing in Warren’s case. These people absolutely exist.

    A ferinstance. Have an acquaintance, also a commercial fisherman like me, who was distraught about the likelihood that alleged President Individual-1 would be “reelected”. I countered that it seems to me that a guy who has never (not once, ever) got above the mid-40s in approval and who has done nothing but pander to his revanchist herrenvolk base and is under intense, relentless investigation looks purty beatable.

    His rejoinder: “Who are the Dems gonna put up? Who’s running who can beat Trump?”

    I listed several, among them Warren. He offered what I consider defeatist reactionary replies, each one informed by and a byproduct of being led by the nose of our asinine media. And as the Flying Spaghetti Monster is my witness, re: Warren he said: “Warren’s toast. Do you really want to hear about Pocahantas on the warpath every damn day?”

    I agree with your post generally, I’m just saying that there are many people out there who vote Dem and ain’t trolls who become discouraged, not by the candidate necessarily, but by assuming that media coverage of same can and does define the candidate.

    The bots certainly “catapult the propaganda” as they usedta sez back in the bad ol’ Bush days, but the phenomenon of (some) Dems allowing the GOP to define our candidates is regrettably a very real deal.

  102. 102
    slightly_peeved says:

    How’s about this for a response?
    “Donald Trump offered a million dollars to charity if I took the test and it showed I had Native American heritage. I figured charities could use that money. The REAL question people should be asking is whether Deadbeat Donnie is just not paying up because all his charitable foundations are scams, or because he’s broke. Again.”

    The response to the Republican smears of Democratic candidates is to offer a compelling counter-narrative, not to search for a clean candidate. That can be achieved through soaring rhetoric, or it can be done by punching back twice as hard. What I like about Warren is that she’s happy to hit back, and she has a positive counter-narrative (spending her whole career protecting average families against the corruption and predation of big business). We’ll find out how well she can sell that narrative over the next year.

  103. 103
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Elizabeth Warren will travel to Iowa this weekend, holding events in: Council Bluffs, Sioux City, Storm Lake, Des Moines.

    I love this. It will drive Wilmer nuts (nuttier)

  104. 104
    SectionH says:

    @Schlemazel: Random state was srsly random. Sorry. I went to college in St. Paul (Macalester), and was politically active even then. Voter Reg, GOTV when I was 16/17 when 21 was voting age. And I def hung out with DFL types. I am so not dissing MN.

    You’re lucky with your Senators who pick up the slack, like Ohio has Brown, but my actual point was That’s Not Their Job! Yes, go good Senators, but dammit, whoever anyone’s US House Representative is, they are who should be paying attention to their constituents’ issues.

  105. 105
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    It sounds like the biggest obstetrical to a woman president is that all boi mean girl Beltway press. I

  106. 106
    Miss Bianca says:

    @eemom: @jk: Jesus, you two, get a room at the Hate Shack and beat each other off moaning and groaning about “she’s too oooooolllld” and “she’s too duuummmmbbb” or whatever the fuck else turns you on. You obviously consider your hater insights to be some sort of art flick, but I find your political grinder pron absolutely fucking nauseating.

  107. 107
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Miss Bianca: Upvote.

  108. 108
    stinger says:

    There’s a bias, among the media and it *seems* among the most committed primary/caucus voters, to assume that any candidate who won’t wake up suicidal the morning after their loss is a candidate who ‘just doesn’t care enough’.

    This is true, and at the same time, “ambition” in a Dem and especially in a woman is unseemly and unattractive, doncha know. Clinton/Warren/Harris/Gillibrand/whoever couldn’t/won’t win with “the media” and we’ll just have to elect her anyway!

  109. 109
    J R in WV says:

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    But Louie KC or whatever he calls himself, because he’s scared to attach his real name to his performing life, is just a terrible excuse for a human being.

    He works using hate as his primary tool, almost as much as Trumpkin does. He is despicable, cowardly, forcing his sexual desires on random people who don’t want to see his genitals used right out in front of them. This is why what he does is illegal, exhibitionism is only OK at private clubs where lookers and flashers go to titillate each other.

    People — mostly men — who do it at school playgrounds get arrested, and so should Louie KC, asshole.

  110. 110
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Another Scott: I guess this is the way I feel too. Who knows what’s coming but she’s certainly acceptable.
    Conversation at dinner Monday:
    Realtive: I don’t know about Warren. What does she know about foreign policy?
    Me: More than Trump?
    Relative: Truth.

  111. 111
    J R in WV says:

    @SectionH:

    “Constituent” service issues are all about the US House members. If you are a member of the US House of Congress, you are expected to pay attention to the problems of your actual constituents, i.e. the people who you represent.

    Your Senators aren’t. They’re Special. Any BS about what any Senator’s office didn’t do for someone in Minnesota is either from complete ignorance, or deliberate malice. Pick your poison.

    Oh, Man, there’s a lot of ignorance on display here this morning. All elected, office holding politicians are as responsible for constituent services as they want to be and are capable of performing. From your local dog-catcher who needs to come out and round up a stray dog causing trouble to your mayor and governor, your state house reps and your US Senator.

    Senators Byrd and Rockefeller were both famous for their high level of constituent services. Even Senator Joe Manchin (spit) does pretty good constituent services, although our Republican Senator Shelly Moore Capito doesn’t seem to really care much about anything but money, which talks to her in the language she loves to hear…

    So don’t go off on others’ ignorance and malice when you are such a shining example yourself.

  112. 112
    J R in WV says:

    @Brachiator:

    @eemom:

    I would totally THIS this, but I can’t stand Harris or Gillibrand either. Especially Gillibrand.

    So, is there anyone you like?

    Come on, Brachaitor, you know eemom hates everyone and everything, except perhaps herself. Perhaps. But nothing else whatsoever, ever, never.

  113. 113
    nativeprof says:

    I know from experience that Warren’s DNA announcement has been absolutely toxic in Indian country. She failed to consult the Cherokee Nation, for one thing. But the bigger threat to sovereignty is giving sanction to DNA companies, which turn the illusion of tribal belonging into a commodity for white people eager to play Indian.

    I say this as someone who thinks Warren’s Accountable Capitalism Act is the only policy proposal on the table as bold, imaginative, and suited to our times as the new deal.

    I can’t flash the warning signal loud enough. Think of how Trump’s team will react to realizing the depths of negative attitudes toward Warren among Indians. We’ll be treated to a thousand interviews and profiles of Indians with mixed feelings about Warren, even though Trump is the most hostile president on Indian policy since Truman snd has a portrait of Andrew f-ing Jackson in oval office.

    It’s a sick joke. Warren will lose because Trump managed to brand her with the one thing that’s legitimately shitty about her.

  114. 114
    J R in WV says:

    @SectionH:

    …You’re lucky with your Senators who pick up the slack, like Ohio has Brown, but my actual point was That’s Not Their Job! Yes, go good Senators, but dammit, whoever anyone’s US House Representative is, they are who should be paying attention to their constituents’ issues.

    Section8, you are repeatedly proclaiming that Senators have no responsibility for constituent sevices. Show us why. Where’s that rule? There IS NO Such RULE! You made it up, people called you on it, you can’t let it go.

    I’ve now decided you’re a troll, wonderful usage of English including using “the” correctly, so perhaps not a Russian troll, but really, truly, stupidly ignorant of how thing work in politics. Did you know people contribute actual money to congressmen? And senators? Shock! and that’s even legal!!!

    Any senator who doesn’t have staff assigned to work 40 hours a week on constituent services is just incompetent at their work.

    Like you.

    I’m so sick of people beating their little drum about their ignorance and idee fixe thoughts.

  115. 115
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    This thread is a great example of the circular firing squad in action.

    Eyes on the Prize, people.

  116. 116
    nativeprof says:

    It’s not a circular firing squad when somebody has done something as toxic and disqualifying as the DNA announcement. Read Kim TallBear’s book Native American DNA.

  117. 117
    Steeplejack says:

    @J R in WV:

    But Louie KC or whatever he calls himself, because he’s scared to attach his real name to his performing life [. . .].

    “Louis C.K.” is a close homophone of his given name, Louis Székely.

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