Flynn Sentencing at 11 AM (Open Thread)

Disgraced former National Security Adviser and “Lock Her Up” chant leader Michael Flynn is due in court shortly. It’ll be fascinating to see how this phase of the Mueller probe plays out.

The conventional wisdom is that since Flynn’s crimes were serious and Mueller let Flynn plead guilty to a relatively minor offense and recommends no jail time, Flynn’s cooperation must have been incredibly valuable to the investigation, perhaps even instrumental in hooking a very big fish. I sure hope so.

But Flynn is trying to have his cake and eat it too by (absurdly) claiming entrapment, and that line has echoed throughout the wingnut media sphere. The Post says Flynn’s double-dealing could increase the hearing’s drama quotient:

But in their sentencing submission, Flynn’s attorneys suggested he might have been fooled into lying to the FBI because he had not been warned in advance that doing so is a crime. That prompted the judge to request more documents, and the special counsel’s office last week vigorously pushed back on the idea that Flynn was mistreated.

Trump has ripped Michael Cohen as a rat while at the same time putting his tiny orange thumb on the scale in Flynn’s favor, repeating the entrapment lie. From this morning’s Twitler Twitter extrusions:

Good luck today in court to General Michael Flynn. Will be interesting to see what he has to say, despite tremendous pressure being put on him, about Russian Collusion in our great and, obviously, highly successful political campaign. There was no Collusion!

I try to remain agnostic on the idea of Mueller as the incorruptible, nonpartisan defender of American democracy who will expose the traitors and restore the rule of law, though it’s tempting to cling to that myth as our other checks and balances are dithered away by corrupt and spineless swine.

But on the issue of Flynn, it seems to be a battle of wits between Trump and clowns like Giuliani vs. Mueller and his team. My money’s on the latter — or really, any random group of people — against those idiots.

As for Flynn himself, he strikes me as a pinwheel-eyed partisan loon — a true believer. But Cohen once said he’d take a bullet for Trump. We’ll see.

Open thread.

229 replies
  1. 1
    germy says:

    George Capen #IndictTrump

    Trump uses relationships to hedge against loyalty drift:

    Sarah Sanders – Mike Huckabee
    Betsy DeVos – Erik Prince (and her husband)
    Elaine Chao – Mitch McConnell
    Ronna McDaniel – Mitt Romney
    Ben Carson’s son
    Don McGahn’s wife
    Giuliani’s son

    Those are just the obvious examples.

  2. 2
    Corner Stone says:

    But Flynn is trying to have his cake and eat it too by (absurdly) claiming entrapment, and that line has echoed throughout the wingnut media sphere.

    Since Flynn will not have any career to speak of, my guess is he is building up cred for the RWNJ welfare speaking circuit.

  3. 3
    germy says:

    But Flynn is trying to have his cake and eat it too by (absurdly) claiming entrapment

    I’m guessing Flynn has his eye on his future career/income source, and he knows “rats” aren’t popular on the wingnut welfare circuit.


    see comment #2

  4. 4
    Corner Stone says:

    The Trump Foundation aka Trump Slushfund has been dissolved according to MSNBC.

  5. 5
    WereBear says:

    But Cohen once said he’d take a bullet for Trump.

    A lot of stuff gets said when there is no gun in the room.

  6. 6
    MattF says:

    So, the legal theory is that Flynn will lie all the time unless he’s warned not to? And so, lying is just an oopsie, and that man Mueller is a mean person for suggesting otherwise?

    There’s something vaguely familiar about this reasoning, truth to tell. I get the feeling I’ve heard it before.

  7. 7
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    But Flynn is trying to have his cake and eat it too by (absurdly) claiming entrapment, and that line has echoed throughout the wingnut media sphere.

    The bewilderingly high-profile neocon Eli Lake has joined the “Flynn was entrapped!” chorus. According to his self-described friend Josh Marshall:

    Josh Marshall @ joshtpm
    Eli, lemme help you and the other readers. Flynn was working with Eli’s friend Jim Woolsey on the Turkey scam and a book with Eli’s mentor Michael Ledeen. So he’s deep with Flynn. Eli, this began as a CI investigation into the conspiracy between the Trump campaign …

    my memory of the Iraq fiasco is getting cloudy as the firehose of trump bullshit keeps spewing, but Woolsey among other things was promoting the idea that there was a link between 9/11 and Saddam. And he’s been involved in IIRC more shady foreign lobbying and grifting than Flynn. Ledeen’s specific history escapes me

  8. 8
    Gin & Tonic says:

    News is saying the Trump Foundation agreed to dissolve under judicial supervision.

  9. 9
    Platonailedit says:

    Why is the totus thug acting so solicitous of this traitorous thug?

  10. 10
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy: Ronna McDaniel – Mitt Romney

    I tend to think Willard’s all but inevitable Flakery in the Senate is due to the dream of “the Mormon Kennedys”. Young Bagg or Ragg will need the mouth-breathers to vindicate the robbery of Father’s destiny in 2012

  11. 11
  12. 12
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Flynn was working with Eli’s friend Jim Woolsey on the Turkey scam

    What should be remembered about that is Jim Woolsey saw or heard something that was too much for him to go along with and he quit that scam with Flynn. And Woolsey is bug fucking nuts so that should tell you how bad the scheme must have been.

  13. 13
    Platonailedit says:

    The New York Attorney General says that the Trump Foundation has signed a stipulation agreeing to dissolve.— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

    Underwood said her investigation found "a shocking pattern of illegality involving the Trump Foundation – including unlawful coordination with the Trump presidential campaign, repeated and willful self-dealing, and much more."— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

  14. 14
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ledeen was the guy who famously said every few years, America needs to pick up some crappy little country and throw it against the wall.

  15. 15
    EBT says:

    No jail time for Flynn, but they should recall; court martial, and shoot him instead.

  16. 16
    SiubhanDuinne says:


    That’s a good list. I’d add Anthony Kennedy and his son, leading to Brett Kavanaugh on the SCOTUS.

    (Not to mention, of course, Trump’s very own Uday, Qusay, and Jarvanka.)

  17. 17
    germy says:

    Sullivan asks Flynn if he was aware that lying to the FBI was illegal.

    "I was aware," Flynn says.

    He is NOT taking Sullivan's offer to withdraw his guilty plea.

    — Steven Portnoy (@stevenportnoy) December 18, 2018

  18. 18
    germy says:

    Sullivan now asks Flynn's attorney if he believes his client was entrapped by the FBI.

    "No, your honor," says the lawyer.

    — Steven Portnoy (@stevenportnoy) December 18, 2018

  19. 19
    Mike in NC says:

    Flynn should lose his military pension and have to go begging for coins at DC Metro stations with a tin cup in hand.

  20. 20
    narya says:

    I don’t know how to quote a tweet, but this from @HoarseWisperer is interesting: “In other words, Mueller charged Flynn with the bare minimum, robbed Trump of a reason to pardon him, and left Flynn vulnerable to further prosecution.”

  21. 21
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Platonailedit: Beutler lays out a possible scenario, others say that the combination of the release of interview transcripts and Flynn Jr’s exposure make this unlikely. I, myself, have no freakin’ idea what will happen

    Brian Beutler @ brianbeutler
    Had a sinking feeling for weeks that Flynn is working an angle, not unlike Manafort. Instead of fake-cooperating, he’s provided truthful info, but will recant all of it after sentencing, claiming he was entrapped, in exchange for a pardon for all charged and uncharged conduct.
    I originally assumed (and it may still be the case) that Flynn is only angling to cash in on the conspiracy theory after sentencing, but that doesn’t really account for why Trump has treated him more like Manafort than like Cohen–the one top cooperator who fully betrayed him.

  22. 22
    West of the Rockies says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    This always makes me shake my head:
    45 U.S. presidents…
    1 was Catholic.
    No Mormons, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc.
    Everyone else was Protestant (including Presbyterian, Episcopalian).

    No atheists.

    We do not easily embrace differences.

  23. 23
    germy says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I tend to think Willard’s all but inevitable Flakery in the Senate is due to the dream of “the Mormon Kennedys”. Young Bagg or Ragg will need the mouth-breathers to vindicate the robbery of Father’s destiny in 2012

    Yes, he’s playing the long game. Either Bagg or Ragg or Tragg or Trigg has a destiny to obey, and it involves taking away what’s left of our social safety net and replacing it with religious charities.

  24. 24
    MattF says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: There’s a difference: Flynn is crazy and Manafort is evil. They could end up in the same place, but by different routes.

    ETA: And btw, WaPo reports that the WH has retreated on shutting down the government.

  25. 25
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy: Sullivan sounds like somebody who has low nonsense-tolerance

    Andrew Prokop @ awprokop
    Judge Sullivan says he is “concerned,” and wondering if Flynn has truly accepted responsibility, because of his sentencing memo.

  26. 26
    Ben Cisco says:

    @germy: @germy: Uh huh

  27. 27
    germy says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    The bewilderingly high-profile neocon Eli Lake has joined the “Flynn was entrapped!” chorus.

    It’s so hard nowadays being a rightwing opinion columnist yelling “Flynn was entrapped!” when Flynn’s own lawyer tells the judge “Nah, that didn’t happen.”

    “Michael Flynn is owed an apology” Eli writes, hits send, and then sees the news and asks himself “Why the fuck do I even bother?”

  28. 28
    tobie says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: My understanding is Judge Sullivan was concerned that the FBI acted inappropriately.

    Steven Portnoy

    Verified account

    8m8 minutes ago
    Saying he’s “puzzled” by the documents he’s seen, Sullivan makes it explicitly clear he was concerned by the circumstances of the FBI interview, but Flynn and his attorneys are *repeatedly* declining the judge’s offers to delay or steer the proceeding off course.

    Judge Sullivan sounds like Judge Ellison from the Manafort trial, as in someone who would like to exonerate the administration if the facts were not so glaring and, in this case, if Flynn hadn’t entered a guilty plea.

  29. 29
    Platonailedit says:


    There goes the true believers’ collective heads boom.

  30. 30
    Barbara says:

    @germy: This is the kind of thing that judges do when they think you are being an idiot. This is what happened when Manafort’s lawyers complained that he couldn’t prepare properly for trial from a location two hours away. The judge called their bluff and moved him to Alexandria, where he was not given nearly the same preferential treatment. It was stupid for anyone on Flynn’s side to promote such a preposterous argument in advance of the sentencing. Judges see people allocuting to 1001 violations everyday when it was clear that the FBI knew the answer to the question before they asked it. If nothing else, lying means they have to go to some effort to prove the truth, rather than getting an admission, and in this case, revealing sources and methods. THESE PEOPLE ARE IDIOTS.

  31. 31
    Platonailedit says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    What is Beutler smoking?

  32. 32
    Martin says:

    @MattF: The rule is that white men are allowed to lie in the privacy of other white men. That’s the basis behind the ‘locker room talk’ defense, and Flynns. It’s this unspoken compact between white men that because society won’t allow us to let our racist/sexist freak flags fly, we can confide in others of our type to express our frustration that women and black people won’t stay in their place. Because we are also social creatures, the above law of aryan patriarchy also allows us to congregate in hoods and robes to the same effect.

  33. 33
    The Moar You Know says:

    Please God let there be a peanut gallery yelling “lock him up”.

  34. 34
    TS (the original) says:

    @West of the Rockies:

    No atheists.

    At a minimum, trump is agnostic – but I would think an atheist.

  35. 35
    Mike J says:

    @germy: They’ll all argue that of course Flynn was entrapped and he was lying when he accepted responsibility. And lying about accepting responsibility is admirable when you’re entrapped.

    It would be interesting to see the justice system work the way Republicans think it should work for them, but for regular people.

  36. 36
    Martin says:



    Of course they are. Trump is nothing if not a character test for idiocy. If you sign on with him in any capacity, you’re an idiot. QED.

  37. 37
    Platonailedit says:

    Michael Flynn has said he does not want to challenge the circumstances under which he provided false statements to the FBI.

    Attorney Rob Kelner added that Flynn's rights were not violated during the FBI's interview with Flynn.— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

    There goes the Beutler’s theory.

  38. 38
    ET says:

    OK I have watched enough cop dramas to know that regardless if it cops or federal law enforcement, IT IS EFFIN STUPID TO LIE TO THEM AND WHEN/IF THEY FIND OUT YOU WILL GET IN TROUBLE FOR THAT ON TOP OF THE TROUBLE YOU ARE ALREADY ARE IN BECAUSE YOU ARE A CROOK.

    Flynn is old enough to know better and if his lawyers are saying that he needed better lawyers because they are too stupid or making a bad faith argument. I should add this is likely not going to go down well with the judge because honestly this is stupid.

  39. 39
    JR says:

    @germy: Taking hostages from vassals is just standard practice for pre-modern monarchies. Which is basically what Trump aspires to be.

  40. 40
    Martin says:

    @TS (the original): He’s an atheist. No fucking way he believes anything is more divine than he is.

  41. 41
    TS (the original) says:

    Arizona governor taps Martha McSally to fill Senate seat once held by McCain

    Hoping all those who voted against her in 2018 do the same in 2020

  42. 42
    Platonailedit says:

    "The judge appears to be making it crystal clear that Michael Flynn has plead guilty because he is actually guilty, and not because he was coerced by any person or entity. Flynn has repeated his understanding … and remains adamant he was not coerced."— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

    Dershowitz should be debarred forever.

  43. 43
    Schlemazel says:

    @TS (the original):
    Oh, Dump believes in a God alright. He just believes it is him

  44. 44

    @Platonailedit: Let’s see what he says once he’s out of court. The guy appears to be about as reliable and Trump.

  45. 45
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @TS (the original):

    At a minimum, trump is agnostic – but I would think an atheist.

    Well, he claims the mantle of Christianity — but he refers to Holy Communion as “my little wine, my little cracker” and once put money in the communion plate.

  46. 46
    rikyrah says:

    such an arrogant mofo. wish he got the book thrown at him..but, he squealed first, so he got the prize get out of jail free card.

  47. 47
    tobie says:

    I seem to have mistakenly found my way into a Trumper twitter feed. Steven Portnoy’s account of the proceedings doesn’t match entirely with what others are saying. Specifically he’s making it seem as if the Judge questions FBI procedures with the Flynn interview. Seeing the agonizing cries of the magats on his twitter feed that Flynn was framed would be amusing if I didn’t think 35% of all Americans would buy this line.

  48. 48
    The Dangerman says:


    He’s an atheist. No fucking way he believes anything is more divine than he is.

    There’s a reason he skipped the Apostle’s Creed at the funeral.

  49. 49
    Luthe says:

    @West of the Rockies: I’m pretty sure some of those early Presidents were Deists. Jefferson comes to mind.

  50. 50
    Platonailedit says:

    Judge Sullivan on Flynn: "This is a very serious offense. A high-ranking senior official of the government making false statements to the Federal Bureau of Investigation while on the physical premises of the White House." —@MSNBC— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

    Lock him up, lock him up, judge.

  51. 51
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I’ve always thought that the Country Club and Church Basement factions of the Republican Party regarded each other with contempt, as useful idiots in getting what each side wants, but I have been a bit surprised at how enthusiastically White Evangelicals have embraced the man who speaks of religion with such obvious and dismissive contempt, “two Corinthians… that’s the one you like, right?”. Their real religion is the “white”, not the “evangelical”

  52. 52
    TS (the original) says:

    @Platonailedit: I don’t know who Steven Portnoy is, but he sure seems to be tweeting for trump supporters – putting a pro Flynn point of view in every tweet

    Edit: what tobie said at #47

  53. 53
    West of the Rockies says:

    @TS (the original):

    I will argue that Atheism takes thoughtful consideration, of which Trump is incapable. If anything, he is Athinkist.

  54. 54
    Felanius Kootea says:

    Betty do you think Mueller will show that he’s a Republican in the end? I always get that vibe from you when it comes to the investigation.

  55. 55
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @Mike in NC:

    Flynn should lose his military pension and have to go begging for coins at DC Metro stations with a tin cup in hand.


    There’s a cartoonist named Sam Gross who’s done a lot of beggar-sign jokes, like this one that is the title of a collection of his work. I’d like to see what he would come up with for Flynn.

    The site I found that image on says I am Blind and My Dog is Dead is back in print. Yay!

  56. 56
    MomSense says:


    Given that Flynn’s charges included kidknapping and extrajudicial extradition to a country he was working for on the down low and that he didn’t get any jail time, the person(s) he flipped on and the seriousness of the charges against them must be Yuuge. Bigly even.

    My wicked smaht phone really wants to change Flynn to Fucking.

  57. 57

  58. 58
    Corner Stone says:

    There is no way Trump believes in a God. He has never had the capacity to consider anything deeply enough to contemplate faith. What exists for Trump, exists. Nothing else matters.

  59. 59
    trollhattan says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:
    The optics of a general “playin’ dumb” are suboptimal. Dude, did you go to class at The Point?

  60. 60
    germy says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: A few nights ago there was a discussion here about eating frogs’ legs and I was reminded of his cartoon of the legless frog pulling himself along with two bricks and a tiny wagon, rolling out of the restaurant kitchen and staring dolefully at the seated couple who had just ordered the chef’s special.

  61. 61
    West of the Rockies says:

    Quite so (or so says Wikipedia).

  62. 62
    trollhattan says:

    @Corner Stone:
    I could see Trump being foursquare behind prosperity gospel. “I’m rich because He found me to be worthy above all others. Amen”

  63. 63
    trollhattan says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    I’m liking this judge’s jib cut.

  64. 64

    @Cheryl Rofer: Whoa. “Sold your country out.” That’s cold.

    @MomSense: Your smart phone knows which word you’re more likely to use!

  65. 65
    West of the Rockies says:

    @Felanius Kootea:

    I don’t mean this flippantly, but what IS a Republican these days? Is he a Rockefeller Republican maybe?

  66. 66
    JR says:

    @tobie: Probably just making sure that Flynn makes his plea unambiguous for the record.

  67. 67
    Platonailedit says:

    Judge Sullivan: On the "very serious crime," you "can't minimize that.""Arguably, you sold your country out. The court is going to consider all that." —@MSNBC— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

    Lock the bastard up.

  68. 68
    TS (the original) says:

    Sullivan is now asking the special counsel’s office whether it ever considered charging Flynn with treason.

    Prosecutor Brandon Van Grack struggles to answer, saying it wasn’t considered.

    From @stevenportnoy – seems to have given up on supporting Flynn

  69. 69
    trollhattan says:

    @West of the Rockies:
    I’m hoping Teddy R. Republican, armed with three sticks.

  70. 70
    hueyplong says:

    Trump is not an atheist. He is a me- theist and always has been.

    “Evangelicals” don’t give a shit about that. He shares their prejudices and hurts their targets.

    These are people on record believing in “faith” when it conflicts with apparent fact.

    They will only let go of him when he is perceived to be a loser.

  71. 71
    Betty Cracker says:

    The T word! The judge said the T word!

  72. 72
    LAO says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: @Dorothy A. Winsor: @trollhattan: this isn’t going well for Flynn.

  73. 73
    Barbara says:

    @TS (the original): This kind of public sentencing colloquy is one of the few means that Judges have of fighting back in public.

  74. 74
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @West of the Rockies: The “party over country” group that runs the Presidency, House and Senate. More seriously though, she’s (vaguely) expressed some doubts about Mueller once or twice and it just made me wonder.

    Now, the New York Times is run by Rockefeller Republicans who are often mistaken for liberals but more people are catching on.

  75. 75
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @TS (the original):

    Sullivan is now asking the special counsel’s office whether it ever considered charging Flynn with treason.


  76. 76
    kindness says:

    Flynn deserves time in jail. Some dare call his actions treason after all.

  77. 77
    TS (the original) says:

    Sullivan recesses until 12:30pmET because Flynn has asked for the chance to confer with his lawyers before moving forward…

  78. 78
    Platonailedit says:

    Have the rethugs like ghouliani started demonizing the judge yet? Man, he is actually telling it like it is.

  79. 79
    eclare says:

    Here at work, thanks to all for the play by play

  80. 80
    Mike in NC says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Trump would drop a dime in the collection plate and withdraw a dollar bill. That’s his approach to life in a nutshell.

  81. 81
    Gin & Tonic says:


    this isn’t going well for Flynn.

    This kind of high-powered legal analysis is what keeps us coming back here.

  82. 82
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Wow indeed.

    Section 3.
    Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

    If the judge is identifying Russia as that enemy what was aided and comforted, that should scare the shit of a whole bunch of people in the trump outfit(s)

  83. 83
    raven says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Hammering his ass

  84. 84
    Kay says:

    Stephanie Mencimer
    ‏Verified account
    2h2 hours ago
    Chris Cox from Bikers for Trump is outside the DC federal courthouse with his dog Trigger where he says he’s come to defend Michael Flynn’s family from Antifa, though admits that Antifa doesn’t seem to be here.

    You wonder why it’s so important to them to be victims. Each Trump conspiracy theory includes a huge dollop of victimhood.

    I think it’s to keep them all riled up so they can’t think straight, because this is crushing for them if they accept the reality of it- these Trump hires are sell-outs. They weren’t working for US interests- they were working for the highest bidder.

  85. 85
    TS (the original) says:

    @TS (the original): Flynn be thinking he may get some jail time – might be better to wait? or is he still angling for a pardon?

  86. 86
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Did anyone else who has MSNBC on just check their phone when somebody on set got a text message ding?

  87. 87
    Betty Cracker says:

    So, safe to say Flynn’s attempt to have it both ways blew up in his face? LMAO!

  88. 88
    LAO says:

    @Gin & Tonic: well, nobody’s paying me for my insight…but seriously, the Flynn sentencing memo was egregious and bordering on malpractice (although not technical malpractice).

  89. 89
    LAO says:

    @Betty Cracker: This was some supernova bad lawyering.

  90. 90
    Corner Stone says:

    @TS (the original):

    because Flynn has asked for the chance to confer with his lawyers before moving forward

    Sounds like Flynn just now started to feel the heating pad under his ass get hot.

  91. 91
    SFAW says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    “The Treason is coming from INSIDE THE WHITE HOUSE!!!!!”

  92. 92
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Poor Trigger.

  93. 93
    Platonailedit says:

    Judge Sullivan: "I'm not hiding my disgust, my disdain for this criminal offense."— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) December 18, 2018

  94. 94
    West of the Rockies says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Trump’s NSA being called the T word, plus the Trump Foundation being shut down and described as a grossly law-breaking entity… So much winning for one day!

  95. 95
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I am assuming that was during the Pete Williams bit? Glad I always mute him.

  96. 96
    ET says:

    @TS (the original): It is hard to be either when you think yourself a god.

  97. 97
    Platonailedit says:

    Shorter Judge Sullivan: What’s all this BS on Fox News about you being trapped?
    Flynn: Nevermind.

    — Ken Dilanian (@KenDilanianNBC) December 18, 2018

  98. 98
    oldgold says:

    Sullivan was appointed to DC Sup Court by Reagan, to DC Court of Appeals by Bush, to US District Court for DC by Clinton.

    Judge Sullivan is doing an excellent job. Flynn’s attorneys tried to gild the lily and there may be a price to pay for it.

    I am still confused as to why the Special Counsel has recommended such a lenient punishment.

  99. 99
    bluefoot says:

    @Martin: Truth. I once worked for a start up, and the things that were said in the few board meetings I attended was appalling Sexist, anti-Semitic, etc. It was how they all signaled to each other that they were part of the “in group” – that they could say these things and there were no repercussions. There was no mechanism for reporting them.

  100. 100
    Schlemazel says:

    not sure who the cartoonist was but it was in the National Lampoon
    I wish I had saved all my copies

  101. 101
    TS (the original) says:

    Sometimes even reporting from a court of law seems to be too hard for some – Kyle seems to get it right

    Kyle Griffin Retweeted
    Ken Dilanian

    Shorter Judge Sullivan: What’s all this BS on Fox News about you being trapped? Flynn: Nevermind.

    Kyle Griffin

    Judge Sullivan asked, hypothetically, could Michael Flynn have been charged with treason.
    Prosecutor Van Grack: “Because it’s such a serious question, I am hesitant from answering.” —@MSNBC

  102. 102
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Human sober-side Chuck Rosenberg (MSNBC Former Federal Prosecutor, for you cable cutters) is almost agitated by this “mercurial judge”. He might just drop a “By gum!” or “My goodness!”

  103. 103
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Well, it’s just an outing for Trigger. Imagine all the places he gets to go to defend against phantom enemies.

  104. 104
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @trollhattan: Fingers crossed but I don’t expect too much. I remember reading a book by an American lawyer who said that the tougher the Judge talked during sentencing, the lighter the sentence they would eventually give.

  105. 105

    @Kay: The Brahmin men who are amongst Modi’s biggest followers revel in similar victimhood. It totally disgusts me. I have seen it from close quarters.

  106. 106
    Corner Stone says:

    @LAO: “Hmmm…let’s see. Sentencing day is coming. On one hand we can emphasize all the service to country, cooperation with Mueller and the beneficial sentencing recommendation. Oooorrr, we can throw a bone out and see if Trump bites and pardons me at the last minute, and I can maintain my standing in the RWNJ community. That’s a tough one…”

  107. 107
  108. 108
    tobie says:

    With the exception of Mimi Rocah, everyone on MSNBC (Pete Wilson, Chuck Rosenberg, Ken Dilanian) is saying what the judge is doing is so inappropriate. If they do mention Flynn’s last filing, it’s to say that it “ticked” the judge off.

    Well, Ignatius just added that Flynn’s lawyers made a “terrible mistake” in suggesting Flynn was framed.

  109. 109
    CliosFanBoy says:

    @tobie: from what I read Sullivan is always careful of defendent’s rights, not just in this case… FWIW

  110. 110
  111. 111
    The Moar You Know says:

    Sullivan recesses until 12:30pmET because Flynn has asked for the chance to confer with his lawyers before moving forward…

    @TS (the original): If I’m his lawyers, I advise him to pull his plea as the judge is about to throw the book at his lousy ass, agreement be damned.

  112. 112
    LAO says:

    @tobie: I’m super glad not to be watching MSNBC right now — cause I’d be throwing things at the TV.

  113. 113
    CliosFanBoy says:

    @germy: cartoonist was John Callahan

  114. 114
    A Ghost To Most says:

    Dude, take the delay in sentencing, and run away. The judge sounds (rightly) pissed.

  115. 115
    WaterGirl says:

    @Kay: It’s really too bad that this is so long – it really would make a lovely rotating tag:

    …outside the DC federal courthouse with his dog Trigger where he says he’s come to defend Michael Flynn’s family from Antifa, though admits that Antifa doesn’t seem to be here.

  116. 116
    Miss Bianca says:

    I’m still trying to wrap my head around the notion that a Lt. General in the United States Army could possibly hope to get away with the argument that he “didn’t know that lying to the FBI – the fucking FBI, for fuck’s sake! – was a crime.”

    I mean, seriously? And anyway, aren’t these LawnOrdure right-wing types the ones that are always piously intoning that “ignorance of the law is no excuse”?

  117. 117
    germy says:

    @Schlemazel: It was Sam Gross. Google “Sam Gross Frogs Legs” and you’ll see the cartoon.

  118. 118
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: Trigger is probably having a lovely day hanging out in public with lots of interesting people walking by.

    edit: I see that Kay had the same thought.

  119. 119

  120. 120
    tobie says:

    @LAO: It helps that I’m not a lawyer. The TV legal commentary must be like nails on a blackboard for you, Immanentize, and all our super sharp BJ lawyers. Thank you for your informative posts!

  121. 121
    Kay says:


    I really loathe Flynn for the “lock her up”. He’s getting a much more due process than he would extend to his enemies.

    To the end his word isn’t good. He made a deal. Central to the deal was his admission of guilt. That’s not incidental to the deal, it is the bargain he made. He reneged on it with all this “I was framed” bullshit. The judge should refuse to accept it.

    Fuck him. He wants the get out of jail free card without the stain. That wasn’t the bargain.

  122. 122
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: The argument could be made that we are already at (cyber) war. I don’t believe it specifies declared war

  123. 123
    Tom Cahill says:

    @Platonailedit: Forrest Church (Frank Church’s son) wrote a book arguing(persuasively imo) that none of the first five presidents were Christian. I don’t think JQ Adams was either—making Andrew Jackson the first Christian president.

  124. 124
    Platonailedit says:

    @The Moar You Know: How would pulling his guilty plea now help him?

  125. 125
    Barbara says:

    @Miss Bianca: Yes, it’s simply outrageous, but it’s even more outrageous because they know it’s 100% inaccurate and they are obviously doing it for reasons that are signaling to someone who is not the judge. This is not a game, and Flynn must realize that if he reneges his plea, he could be subject to a lot of additional charges. His best move is still to go through with the sentencing, especially if his son’s jeopardy is in the mix of things he was considering when he pleaded guilty.

  126. 126
    GregB says:

    Has Q’s angel army descended from the Heavens on gossamer wings and spirited brave General Flynn off to the promised land?

  127. 127
    WaterGirl says:

    @tobie: I actually like Chuck Rosenberg, but I have no idea who the others are. What is upsetting him about this? I think the judge is great.

  128. 128
    LAO says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: This so true — whenever a federal judge takes the bench and thanks me (defense counsel) for my insightful and thorough papers, I die inside because it means he/she’s going to impose a significant sentence. But I agree with Popehat — the Judge’s question leans toward jail time.

  129. 129
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @Betty Cracker: I love the idea of the remaining Trumpists spending 2019 worrying about treason being on the table with the other obvious conspiracy and money laundering charges. I don’t think Trump himself has the sentience to realize what any of this means, but Ivanka and Jared can work up a nice flop sweat, that will help fuel my schadenfreude for a while.

    I hope the judge’s words about the Trump Foundation being a criminal enterprise get some legs in the press as well. Peel off a few more of the hard core. Sooner or later some of these people have to come to the realization that this is a crime family and it always has been one. Trump talking about “rats” has to help cement that image.

  130. 130
  131. 131
    Kay says:

    There are 15 year old juvenile delinquents who whine less than the Trump hires.

    Man up, Trumpsters. These are the terms you negotiated. Just be glad low quality people like you aren’t handling process, or we’d imprison you-all without trial.

  132. 132
    The Moar You Know says:

    How would pulling his guilty plea now help him?

    @Platonailedit: Forces it to trial. He’d get a couple of more years of not being in jail. And he might get off. Might be worth it to him.

  133. 133
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I loved that book! Gross is a great cartoonist.

  134. 134
    JPL says:

    @LAO: So is this a lock him up moment? Yesterday southpaw speculated that the Eastern District of VA could still bring additional charges.

  135. 135
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @WaterGirl: layman’s guess: As a Mueller supporter, Rosenberg is worried that the judge being harsher on Flynn than Mueller et al want will make future/current cooperators more willing to plead not guilty and take a chance on one MAGA juror?

  136. 136
    Tazj says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I didn’t understand his reaction at all. He seemed really angry that the judge might not agree with the sentencing recommendations. Would prosecutors be angry because they could find it harder to make deals for information from defendants?
    I think it’s a travesty that Flynn would get no jail time considering what many other poor and mentally ill people go to jail for.

  137. 137
    JPL says:

    Gosh I wish trump and his idiots would just disappear down a rabbit hole. You walk away for ten minutes and there is breaking news.

  138. 138
    Platonailedit says:

    @Kay: Exactly. The thugs don’t see how fairly they are all being treated, which courtesy they don’t extend to anyone.

  139. 139
    Barbara says:

    @sukabi: Flynn established a back channel to negotiate preferences for a foreign country in direct contravention of existing U.S. policy. It doesn’t matter who was president. It was wrong. It probably wasn’t treason, but arguably, a country under sanction by the U.S. does fit the definition of an enemy. They are so used to floating around in their own bubble that they really have a hard time understanding how bad this looks to judges and prosecutors who are fully aware of many prior instances of prosecution for espionage and what kind of bad acts were at issue.

  140. 140
    tobie says:

    @WaterGirl: My impression is that Rosenberg believes the judge is upsetting whatever agreement has already been reached. Also, the sentencing guidelines are for 0-6 months, so a recommendation from the Special Counsel for no jail time based on substantial cooperation is well within the norm. Rosenberg also believes the cooperation must have been super significant for the SCO to make the recommendation that it did.

    ETA: Jim, Foolish Literalist at #135 hits the nail on the head.

  141. 141
    Tazj says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I see you’ve answered the question, and others have as well.

  142. 142
    Platonailedit says:

    Was the shutdown of trump.orgy foundation today coordinated with the special counsel?

  143. 143
    mr gravity says:

    @TS (the original): tRump thinks he has both god and the devil on retainer.

  144. 144
    ruemara says:

    @The Moar You Know: There was! It was outside.

  145. 145
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Ah, that makes total sense. “Do not upset the applecart that we have so carefully assembled!”


  146. 146
    sukabi says:

    @Miss Bianca: it’s not just that he was a lt gen, it’s that he was, prior to being fired by Obama in charge of one of the country’s nat sec. agencies. He had to know about “what constitutes treason” as well as little things like lying to federal officials being crimes…that was part of his job, as well as part of the training when you get a security clearance.

  147. 147
    LAO says:

    @JPL: I think the Flynn team takes the adjournment offered by the Judge and then Defense Counsel submits papers taking the full blame for the submission for the world’s stupidest sentencing memo. And Flynn shuts his trap on the TV. The defense team needs his supporters to shut up as well, but I don’t know how they accomplish that task. And, then they’ll have another sentencing hearing in the future.

    ETA: He hasn’t violated his agreement in the eyes of the government, so I wouldn’t expect further charges at this stage.

  148. 148
    Kay says:


    The flip side of Flynn getting his get out of jail free card is us being able to wonder what he had that he traded for it. It had to be big. Who. Who he traded for it.

  149. 149
    TS (the original) says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Andrea Mitchell notes on @MSNBC: Michael Flynn’s plea agreement with the Special Counsel’s Office said that he waived his right to appeal the sentence in this case.

    Which was fine when he thought it would be a “no jail” sentence

  150. 150

    Flynn and his attorney are back in the courtroom.

  151. 151
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Tazj: I agree with you that lurking behind all this Concern for a corrupt and treasonous (if not in a strict Constitutional sense) retired Lt General are the god knows how many thousands of mostly minority youths sent to prison and into a hellish downward spiral with convictions that (again in my layman’s mind) don’t stand up to a common sense of decency

  152. 152
    different-church-lady says:

    Right. So. The Trump Foundation is shut down for “persistently illegal conduct”

    The Clinton Foundation continues.

    Must be fun over at Red State right now.

  153. 153
    Betty Cracker says:

    Boy, it sure sounds like Flynn screwed himself. We know the investigators have corroborating evidence. If Flynn thought he could get off without cooperating, he wouldn’t have cut a deal. Now the judge is saying maybe delay your plea until you finish cooperating so you can get more credit? Worse case scenario, right? Perhaps they’ll go after his insane son if the deal falls through.

  154. 154
    Raven says:

    @TS (the original): Xin Loi motherfucker.

  155. 155
  156. 156
    Raven says:

    “On the other hand the judge is doing his job”

  157. 157
    zhena gogolia says:


    I know, I’m trying to get work done, dammit!

  158. 158
    sukabi says:

    @Barbara: i know that. I found the tweets in the article I linked to interesting…as in the judge is pissed that treason isn’t something he takes lightly. Also that the judge doesn’t like the games flynn’s lawyers are playing.

  159. 159
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: Depending on the outcome of this hearing, your first sentence might make a great rotating tag. It could be right up there with Breitbart is still dead, guaranteed to bring a smile and a sigh of relief.

    Boy, it sure sounds like Flynn screwed himself.

  160. 160
    Kay says:

    So can the NY AG publish all the dirt they have on the Trump Foundation?

    I, for one, am fascinated about details on how the crime family works. I love that sort of thing and we really deserve a reward for all we have suffered.

  161. 161
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @West of the Rockies: quite the infrastructure week so far

  162. 162
    Miss Bianca says:

    @sukabi: Yeah, I know, I could have got into the whole “besides, he was a government official with an actual security clearance once upon a time, he can’t possibly claim he didn’t know this stuff”, but a great and weary disgust at the folly and wickedness of it all suddenly overcame me…

  163. 163
    Raven says:

    He wants to go forward with sentencing. . .maybe.

  164. 164

    @zhena gogolia: I know! I have my book bag packed to go try to go write, and I’m sitting here refreshing the page.

  165. 165

  166. 166
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Seems like a big walk back. Maybe it was all intended to scare the other creatures in trump’s orbit? 7 dimensional chess?

    Whatever, I’m glad he brought the T word into this discussion.

  167. 167
  168. 168
    TS (the original) says:

    Tim Ryan

    Sullivan is back. He wants to correct his previous statement on Flynn, noting Flynn’s conduct occurred before he was in the White House.
    Sullivan also clarifying his hypothetical on treason earlier:
    “I’m not suggesting he committed treason.”

    Slight back track from the Judge’

  169. 169
    LAO says:

    Recess over. Flynn Atty Rob Kelner tells judge Flynn shouldn’t be punished for a filing his lawyers made.— Evan Pérez (@evanperez) December 18, 2018

  170. 170
    Raven says:

    @JPL: Didn’t the Manafort judge say all kinds of goofy shit?

  171. 171
    chopper says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    this is getting weird(er).

  172. 172
    TS (the original) says:

    @LAO: Don’t the lawyers act for Flynn? Does he not approve what they do?

  173. 173
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Uh, whoa! What is this all about?

  174. 174
    PJ says:

    @LAO: The sentencing memo wouldn’t have been filed without Flynn agreeing to it (and if he didn’t read it, he’s a bigger idiot than he already seems). The judge knows this is BS.

  175. 175


  176. 176
    Platonailedit says:

    And right on cue, the cnn talking heads start the demonization of the judge. Where were these assholes when manafort judge was openly biased against Mueller enquiry even questioning his Mueller’s mandate?

  177. 177
  178. 178
    MJS says:

    @TS (the original): Actually, if the conduct in question is lying to the FBI, the judge is wrong, because that occurred in the White House.

  179. 179
    LAO says:

    @TS (the original): @PJ: I didn’t say it was a persuasive strategy.

    ETA: I have, on occasion, submitted sentencing memos that were not reviewed by clients. But I suspect Flynn’s was deeply involved in his defense.

  180. 180

    Don’t forget, there are chunks of documents we haven’t seen yet – redacted in the documents that are out, and possibly others under seal. I think that material is a subtext for what is going on here. The judge knows what is in that material, and so do Flynn and his lawyers.

  181. 181
    chopper says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    guess they took the judge’s hint. guess this means flynn is gonna feel the need to amp up the cooperation with mueller’s team.

  182. 182
    TS (the original) says:

    Flynn doesn’t want to go to jail

  183. 183

    @chopper: Jeez. I can’t even imagine what Trump’s reaction to this will be. It’s crazy on crazy.

  184. 184
    JPL says:

    @Raven: Truthfully, I can’t remember who said what. During the trump era life comes at you fast.
    His use of foundation funds to enrich himself would normally receive 24 hr. MSM coverage, and it’s doubtful it will receive more than a few minutes.

  185. 185
    TS (the original) says:

    @MJS: I thought that too – he was still doing whatever he did AFTER the election. I’m as confused as the judge. How could he work for trump in the WH & be a lobbyist for a foreign power

  186. 186
    different-church-lady says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    “This is your Watergate…

    “…and this is Twitter.

    “This is your Watergate on Twitter

    “Any questions?”

  187. 187
    chopper says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    with any luck it’ll rhyme with ‘broke’.

  188. 188
    WaterGirl says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I can’t even figure out my reaction to this. It is crazy on crazy! I don’t believe I have ever typed “WTF” before, but WTF?

  189. 189
  190. 190
    LAO says:

    @Raven: It can be disconcerting, but Federal Judges often “think out loud” while on the bench. Weird, I know, but “life time appointment” allows them to be wacky that way.

  191. 191
    lollipopguild says:

    @TS (the original): He was good at multitasking, and he was also a traitor and greedy.

  192. 192

    The way I read this is that Flynn’s statement pissed off the judge, who then gave some careful thought to those redacted chunks. His scolding of Flynn was intended to remind Flynn of all the things he hasn’t cooperated on. Also, don’t forget that what Flynn actually did in his interactions with Russia and others, including Middle Eastern actors, is still not fully known. That could be what the judge was implying in his “treason” question. That implied that Flynn could be in a boatload more trouble and could get an ugly sentence today anyway.

  193. 193
    TS (the original) says:

    @LAO: I wasn’t querying you – just the lawyer’s statement – and I agree, Flynn had to be on board with it.

  194. 194
    different-church-lady says:

    @LAO: “This is my I’d like to throw your ass in prison right now face but there’s some larger issues at play…”

  195. 195
    chopper says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    indeed. the judge apparently doesn’t feel that flynn’s cooperation is quite enough to rationalize a light sentence. judge made it pretty clear today that it’s because he’s fucking appalled AF and wants to throw the book at him versus the cooperation to date not adding up to much. trump must be pissing his pants about now.

  196. 196
    Platonailedit says:

    It’s a clear indication how the ‘judicial system’ struggles when it comes to convicting old white guys even if it is treason

  197. 197
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    David Frum @ davidfrum
    So the Flynn sentencing leaves a question

    Flynn lied to FBI to conceal dealings with Russia

    Yet Flynn’s own personal legal jeopardy arose from dealings with Turkey

    So why lie about conversations with Russian ambassador?

    Not to protect himself, evidently. So who – and why?

  198. 198

  199. 199
    Sloane Ranger says:

    Well, well, well, John King asks isn’t anything straightforward in the age of Trump?

    Seems that Flynn needs to be more helpful if he wants to avoid prison.

    Will be interesting to learn Trump’s reaction. Suspect he spin it as the Judge not trusting the FBI story.

  200. 200
    TS (the original) says:

    Steven Portnoy

    A SIGNAL —
    Judge Sullivan says he disagrees with the plea agreement that saw Gen. David Petraeus avoid felony charges.

    An interesting judge

  201. 201

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Frum has some of the same questions I do.

  202. 202
    Barbara says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: The biggest risk from this kind of musing is that if the judge gives him an outlier sentence, Flynn could argue that the judge was sentencing him for a crime he didn’t plead guilty to. We had an extended conversation about the Nasser sentencing hearing on this issue, but most judges will be sensitive to this, and thus, I expect the judge to make Flynn squirm but to impose a sentence within the guidelines.

    ETA: Well, that’s certainly interesting. I wish I knew what they expect to happen in the next four months.

  203. 203
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: so trump et al twist in the wind for another three months while Adam Schiff conducts public hearings.

    I rule that I am satisfied with this outcome.

    Gavel! Gavel! (I lost my gavel)

  204. 204
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Uh…I am no longer even sure how to take any of the news coming out of this courtroom. Yay? Boo? Yay/Boo-ish?

  205. 205
    Platonailedit says:

    Well, at least the judge brought the word treason back into fashion, which the 3rd rate 4th estate media minions were avoiding like plague.

  206. 206
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: OK, there’s an interesting take on the situation…I’m going to go with “Yay!-ish!”

  207. 207
    chopper says:


    what’s interesting is, it would be a waste of time for flynn to have taken this delay if there weren’t something else he could cough up to mueller.

  208. 208
    JPL says:

    I am shocked that trump has not tweeted his pardon of Flynn yet. Maybe the judge was speaking off the cuff about treason in order to prevent that.

  209. 209

    @Miss Bianca: I think it’s not a Yay/Boo thing. As Jim, Foolish Literalist said, more twisting in the wind. To which some of us will say “Yay.”

  210. 210
    Barbara says:

    @TS (the original): It’s easy to lob accusations of bias at judges, but every judge in a federal district has imposed incredibly harsh sentences on people whose life circumstances were at best tenuous. To see someone like Flynn negotiate his way out of serving any time at all for what are objectively much more harmful actions must gall more than a few judges. Still, this is all very weird.

  211. 211
    different-church-lady says:


    Still, this is all very weird.

    Rotating tag line please.

  212. 212
    joel hanes says:

    @TS (the original):

    trump is agnostic

    Nah. Committed worshipper of Mammon, at least — and judging by his ideas of how to treat asylum-seekers, probably of Baal as well.

    ETA: and if he had a coherent philosophy, it’s be solipsism

  213. 213
    debit says:

    @Miss Bianca: I was saying Boo-urns.

  214. 214
    LAO says:

    @Barbara: As an aside and as in most (99%), Flynn waived appeal re: sentence up to the statutory maximum (60 months).

  215. 215
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Or, to quote a former colleague of mine quoting some old Zen master, “neither good nor bad, time will tell.”

  216. 216
    LAO says:

    @chopper: He took the adjournment because Sullivan signaled jail time. He wants the judge to cool off.

    ETA: I don’t care what the media reports. He’s looking to delay the possibility of going to jail.

  217. 217
    trollhattan says:

    Antifa switched from ski masks to judge’s robes, confusing Trumpers.

  218. 218
    Platonailedit says:

    @LAO: Well, he could have gotten his wish if he and his lawyers weren’t trying to be too clever by half by trying to follow the totus thug’s ‘framing’.

  219. 219
    moonbat says:

    I say, Yay-ish. Judge let him know he will have to move from Trump’s “patriot” category to Trump’s “rat” category if he wants to avoid jail time. In other words: “Get your ass back in there and fully cooperate if you want parole.”

  220. 220
  221. 221
    Barbara says:

    @moonbat: There is no parole in the federal system. There are bonus points in the form of reduced time for various kinds of good behavior, and there is probation in lieu of incarceration, but in the federal system, the sentence is the sentence.

  222. 222
    oldgold says:

    The T word is now out of toothpaste tube.

    Excellent development.

  223. 223
    Ruckus says:

    @TS (the original):
    Nah, individual 1 isn’t agnostic or atheist, he just thinks he’s god.

  224. 224
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @different-church-lady: More evidence of the Deep State and just how dastardly the Clintons were, is what I’m hearing on facebook and other sites.

    Basically, the fact that the Clinton Foundation (which sold uranium to the t3h russians11!!!) didn’t get closed and Hillary thrown in jail is just proof of how guilty she is and how the Trump investigation is just Democrats subverting law and order to go after a great president.

  225. 225
    chopper says:


    if flynn comes back three months from now with nothin’, i doubt the judge is gonna be any less pissed than he is today. guess we’ll find out soon enough.

  226. 226
    LAO says:

    @chopper: Flynn provided information that led to the indictment of his business partner in the EDVa yesterday. Should that case go forward, he will have the opportunity to testify at that trial. That’s the additional cooperation which was discussed in court today.

  227. 227
    caring and sensitive says:

    I was a civil litigator. When reading Reasons for Judgment, if I came to a part with the Judge complimenting me for my argument I knew it was over and I had lost.

  228. 228
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That made me laugh.

  229. 229

Comments are closed.