Sunday Morning Garden Chat: Shutting Down for the Season

As we approach the hinge of the year, some reminders of better days, from the indefatigable & gifted Ozark Hillbilly:

We had a rather colorful Fall, with each tree in turn, turning its appropriate colors. As usual the oaks were mostly on the subdued side but the dogwoods, maples, and hickories more than made up for them.

Peak color came in the 1st week of November. (I remember when the 3rd-4th week of October was peak color. Global warming anyone?)

Then our first snow came on November 8th, followed by the 2nd on the 11th, and the 3rd on the 14th.

At top: I have several stands of maples and a few of pines. This pic captured the best of both.

Our dogwoods were special this year, taking on many colors.

A view of one of my stands of maples looking down a holler.

I planted Mexican Sunflowers for the first time this year. While I was disappointed in how they propagated, I was not disappointed in the pollinators they drew.

“I’m not dead yet!”

By the 2nd measurable snow fall, my mums, and my garden, had succumbed.

97 replies
  1. 1
    JPL says:

    This was the least colorful that I remember in my location so I appreciate the pictures. It’s 35 and might drop another degree so fortunately no ice or snow for us today.

  2. 2
    Mary G says:

    That first picture is fantastic, really peaceful. No trees changing colors here, but we have had nearly 3.5 inches of rain, which is a lot for So. Cal. and the wildflowers will be great next year if this keeps up.

  3. 3
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    On a Sunday morning sidewalk
    I’m wishing Lord that I was stoned
    ‘Cause there’s something in a Sunday
    That makes a body feel alone
    And there’s nothin’ short of dyin’
    That’s half as lonesome as the sound
    Of the sleepin’ city sidewalk
    And Sunday mornin’ comin’ down

    Sure is quiet around here

  4. 4
    Swiftfox says:

    NOAA nailed it for the South – colder than normal this winter. Foliage color in the mid-Atlantic was mostly non-existent and one spot of snow so far.

  5. 5
    oatler. says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Are you a problem when you’re stoned? :)

  6. 6
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @oatler.: Something about getting older makes getting stoned ever less attractive. :-(

  7. 7
    satby says:

    Good morning everyone! Slept in until 6:30, about two hours later than I have most of this week. The dogs were a bit annoyed, even more when we went out into 10° cold. Fall color seems so long ago.

  8. 8
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning,Everyone 😄😄😄

  9. 9
    Immanentize says:

    Happy Sunday, All. It is COLD here near Boston. 20 degrees and grey. Even my cat wants to stay in. We won’t see the 40s again until Friday.

    We had the last leaf pick up this week, but like Satby, I never got to the back yard. If I get some time this week, I will rake and pile on the veggie garden area.

  10. 10
    rikyrah says:

    The pictures are beautiful, Ozark😏

  11. 11
    Immanentize says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I agree. Now legal in MA, but I have no real desire to drive to the first shops which are over an hour away — even just for the novelty of being able to buy OTC.

  12. 12
    Elizabelle says:

    In Richmond, awaiting our first snow of the season. Rumor is 5 to 8. Will be low 40s tomorrow, so the white stuff is not staying. Nothing going on out there at this hour.

  13. 13
    Elizabelle says:

    @ Ozark: beautiful photos. You have had a lot of snow this year already. Is that usual?

    Also, FWIW: the Christmas Market in Philadelphia is worth heading out to see. Some beautiful items for sale (and many are authentic to what you find in German Christmas markets). The gluhwein is not that tasty, alas. But warming.

    I really liked the Reading Terminal market too. Always up for a road trip.

  14. 14
    satby says:

    Update on the porch kitty. We decided not to give her back to the Humane Society after all. She’s very sweet and deserves better than what they threw her into, and they already seem to have lost track that I have her anyway. So my group is going to keep her and get her adopted.
    I kind of want to keep her, but I really am at my limit, which has gone down as I have gotten older. 7 is my limit now 😉

  15. 15
    Immanentize says:

    @satby: I thought the limit on cats goes up as one gets older…. If I were close, I’d take porch kitty. This house needs a kitten. Maybe this Spring.

  16. 16

    @Immanentize: How does the state legalization affect drug test requirements for workers in places like schools and nursing homes?

  17. 17
    Elizabelle says:

    @satby: She’s a lucky little kit to still be hanging out chez Satby. Am sure you’ll find her a marvelous home. And she will always appreciate that, in her little kitty heart.

  18. 18

    Chilly here in South Central Indiana, but my heart was warmed at the men’s basketball game last night. The Indiana Hoosiers managed to come from behind 3/4 of way through the game vs. Louisville, take a five point lead with only a few seconds left. And then the new high profile recruit from New Albany, Indiana, Romeo Langford, committed the most grievous possible freshman mistake, he fouled a Louisville player in the act of shooting a three pointer! Argghhhhh! Anyway, after Louisville had to commit a couple of fouls, Indiana finally made the crunch foul shots, put us four points up with 2.2 seconds. Louisville in-bounded, got the ball down court, and nailed a three pointer. Fortunately, this time Indiana players stood as far away as possible, the game buzzer sounded, and we won by a magnificent one point. At which point my heart resumed beating.

    FWIW, I smuggled my sound meter in the jacket of my pocket, it did not set off the security gate. During the video history of Indiana men’s basket ball that plays after the visiting team is introduced and before Indiana starters are introduced, the video averaged 98 bleeping decibels for about two minutes.The average noise level during the game measured around 85 decibels, e.g. when the band was playing. The music school prof who belted out the national anthem managed to score 102 decibels when he hit his emphatic last few notes!

    Anyway, the noise level is bad enough WITHOUT the speakers putting out noise at almost 100 decibels during videos and commercials and urging fans to MAKE SOME NOISE. I always wear earplugs through the game. My wife is losing her hearing, and trust me, it is something you should do all you can to avoid. I will of course email the Athletic Director again, as I do at beginning of every season, so that he can ignore my complaints again.

  19. 19
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    You have had a lot of snow this year already. Is that usual?

    While snow in November is not unusual, three *measurable* snowfalls before the 15th is. Noaa is predicting normal temps with normal precip this winter, so continuing forward we should get more snow than we did the last 2 years combined.

    ** I define measurable as an inch or more. So far we have had 1″, 1 1/2″, 4-6″, and 1″. You northerners will scoff at those numbers, and rightly so, but measurable is measurable.

  20. 20
    geg6 says:


    I love Reading Terminal! I try to get there every time I’m at that end of the state.

  21. 21
    Cermet says:

    Good morning Jackals. Only 26 here, so warm compared to some of you.

    I will be working on my aquatic garden today – I was surprised to learn my aquatic plants are arriving today – Prime does do that, which I didn’t realize till I checked the delivery status.

    Since this is an aquarium indoors not an issue for the work. Of course, I’ll have to carefully keep watch for the delivery since these are tropical plants and the cold would be a disaster if they sit to long waiting at the mail box. Oh well, the fish will like them (now that they’ve grown as much as I think they can – time to plant the aquarium.) Also, time to start adding secondary support fish to help with tank maintenance.

  22. 22
    Immanentize says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:
    That is a great question with an unknown answer. Of course if you have a federal job, it has no effect as marijuana is still illegal in the fed. system.

    You can, of course, contract away your right to use marijuana so you could still be fired for use if your contract specifically prevents it.

    But, there was a case where marijuana testing was held to be insufficient for firing because 1) medical mj (then) was legal, 2) there was no proof of use during work and 3) mj tests notoriously cover a wide range of days (rather than hours like alcohol or cocaine) so use might have been private, legal, at home on weekends. But it is still unsettled.

  23. 23
    waratah says:

    Beautiful photos, I really liked the timeline from gorgeous color to snow.

  24. 24
  25. 25
    A Ghost To Most says:

    Bah. I feel the same way about alcohol, which causes FAR more problems than weed.

  26. 26
    satby says:

    @raven: beautiful! Glad you had a good time!

  27. 27
    Immanentize says:

    @raven: Looks so warm and lush. The opposite of where I am. Glad you had a great trip.

  28. 28
    satby says:

    @Immanentize: We can arrange travel 😉

  29. 29
    Immanentize says:

    @satby: Thanks, but not just yet….

  30. 30
    waratah says:

    I received a seed catalog in the mail that I did not request from Seeds N Such. I always have to search all over for seeds of small tomatoes I can grow in pots. I was happy to see they had a good choice and some I have not seen before. I like to put some in flower pots.
    The first I planted came from Tomato Growers in Florida. Red Robin and. Canary Yellow.
    They don’t seem to carry the Canary yellow any more.

  31. 31
    satby says:

    @waratah: once you get on one garden catalog list, you’ll get on them all. I just got a gorgeous one that offers seeds in packets for home gardeners to per the pound for farmers.
    They’re like crack for gardeners.

  32. 32
    Brachiator says:


    I agree. Now legal in MA, but I have no real desire to drive to the first shops which are over an hour away — even just for the novelty of being able to buy OTC.

    I recently participated in a training seminar at a hotel near LAX. As we drove into the area, I noticed a billboard advertising medical and recreational cannabis sales nearby. There are limits to the number and location of shops in California. Makes sense though, that they would try to hit the tourist trade.

    But I find that I am not that curious, especially since there are no shops near me. Plus I think you have to pay cash.

  33. 33
  34. 34
    zhena gogolia says:

    I don’t have time to read this right now, but Alexandra Petri’s list in WaPo of the 100 best (worst) Christmas songs looks hilarious:

  35. 35
    satby says:

    @HeartlandLiberal: I dislike most public events because of the volume they all consider appropriate. Almost always deafening. A shame really.

  36. 36
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @raven: Tight lines!!

    @A Ghost To Most: I include alcohol in the above statement. I have to seeing as I haven’t smoked any dope since somebody passed me a dipper in HS. I haven’t been drunk in decades and *tipsy* more than once or twice in that time.

    **tipsy- legally prohibited from driving but still appearing sober. Somewhere short of “Boy, I shouldn’t have drank that last one.”

    ETA: and I am speaking only about my personal preferences, that as I’ve gotten older, being sober has an increased attractiveness for me

  37. 37
    Raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I think I lost the big snook because it took off and my light reel was screamin’. It suddenly turned right at the boat and spit it.

  38. 38
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: I just received my first bit of garden pron from Baker Creek.

  39. 39
    waratah says:

    @satby: the farm stores in our small town used to carry seeds by the pound or smaller amounts. I used to get my green bean seeds by the scoop. Black eye peas, okra and corn when I planted for canning.

  40. 40
    satby says:

    @satby: dammit, now I see stuff I want to buy for next summer.

  41. 41
    satby says:

    Wow, NotMax must already have gone to sleep, he’s usually around for the morning threads.

  42. 42

    @geg6: I kept trying to figure out what kind of reading would go on at a terminal.

  43. 43
    JPL says:

    @raven: That looks like fun. How’s the weather in your neck of the woods? It’s just cold and windy near me.

  44. 44
    Eric S. says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: My company, home base Wisconsin and i’m in chicago, retains a zero tolerance policy. Supposedly because of federal contracts. It specifically states that even if you have visited a place where it is legal, even if you have a state issued and doctor approved medical card to use it, you’re out.

  45. 45

    @Immanentize: Interesting area of the law then. I guess things are always unclear as some factor changes because of the way laws tend to interact.

    ETA: Eric S., wow. That’s pretty clear.

  46. 46
    debbie says:


    We had one day of blazing color, probably heightened because there was one of those cobalt blue skies that result after a cold front has swept through. Happily, it was a Saturday, so I wasted all kinds of gas driving around leaf-gazing (my entire town has been declared an arboretum). The leaves had faded by the next day, but the intensity of those colors on that one day reminded me of all the Kodachromes I had taken with a polarizing filter. Spectacular!

  47. 47
    JPL says:

    @Immanentize: It’s not 18 but it’s 34 and feel like 26. It’s the time of year that I wish I had invested in a good parka and a pair of uggs.

  48. 48
    waratah says:

    @satby: You are wonderful, thank you I saved it.
    I want to tell you I bought that Ball jam and jelly maker and I love it. Small batches are enough for us and I am also experimenting with freezing the jam.

  49. 49
    JPL says:

    @debbie: My japanese maple was a brilliant red, but that’s the only one. The maples were duds.

  50. 50
    Raven says:

    @JPL: It’s raining like hell too. Should be a great day for the parade tomorrow!

  51. 51
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Raven: Damn.

    Once while probing a long deep hole on the Current River I hooked a smallie of historic proportions. They are usually in the 10-15″ range with the rare one getting up to 18″ so I always fish with lightweight tackle. As soon as I hooked this one I knew I had a monster. Managed to work him out of the barely visible boulders down in the deep blue and started bringing him up a little when he turned and I caught the barest glimpse of a tail larger than the spread of my hand and SNAP! he was gone.

    Yep, another story about the one that got away.

  52. 52
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: The usual I suspect, books, magazines, newspapers. //

  53. 53
    madmommy says:


    Such a great bit of lyrics Kris wrote! I have a question about dogwoods. I live in Louisiana, just north of lake Pontchartrain. I’ve bought several dogwoods over the years and they all died. A landscaper friend told me that the only way they flourish is if they occur naturally. I finally gave up on having one. I assume the ones on your property are naturally occurring, have you ever heard this theory?

  54. 54
    satby says:

    @waratah: I love that thing too, but I haven’t used it since I moved to South Bend. I used to make jams and jelly for gifts to the neighbors at Christmas, but where I live now is kind of a depressed area. It’s mostly rentals investors bought to flip unsuccessfully, And the houses behind, next to, across the street, and in the opposite corner are all vacant 😮.
    It’s nice and quiet though 😆

  55. 55

    @OzarkHillbilly: I finally dawned on me it’s like the Reading Railroad in Monopoly.

  56. 56
    Elizabelle says:

    Marvelous news in the next thread.

  57. 57
    frosty says:

    @HeartlandLiberal: There’s a good sound meter app for iPhones that I use for the same reason: SPLnFFT. They don’t have one for Android because the hardware varies so much among the different phone manufacturers.

    I’m sitting here listening to the ringing in my ears this morning. It gets really noticeable under 40 dB.

  58. 58
    Elizabelle says:

    It’s snowing in Richmond VA. Woo hoo!

  59. 59
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Eric S.: The carpenters union has a pretty strict no tolerance policy too (3 strikes and your out) which always pissed me off. Not that I imbibed, but over the years I had worked with any number who did and never worried they might get me killed. As opposed to all the still drunk assholes, passed out in the jobsite parking lot, depending on a compatriot to wake them up in time to crawl from their cars to the gangbox before the whistle blew.

  60. 60
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @madmommy: I live in the boonie woods, 12.5 acres so yeah, all mine are natural. I have seen plenty of dogwoods in the suburbs so I’m pretty sure they will take given the right conditions (soil, moisture, sunlight etc).

  61. 61
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Take a ride on the Reading!

  62. 62
    Raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: That’s three trips this fall with no lunkers to show but I’ve had a great time. In guess I’ve crossed into the time of my life when I love the process as much as the outcome. We had nice trout, mangrove snapper and sheephead I made whitefish veracruz and spent three days with guys I’ve been friends with for nigh on 50 years. We were in a grocery store and a lady said “are you brothers”? Ah, yep.

  63. 63
    Princess says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Since it’s in an old train station (right?) it is probably the *source* of the Reading railroad.

  64. 64
    Platonailedit says:

    Exclusive: Before Trump tapped Bill Barr to be his new AG, he reached out to him for another job: his defense lawyer. @SkullduggeryPod @YahooNews @dklaidman— Michael Isikoff (@Isikoff) December 8, 2018

    So, now the tax payers foot the for the tax dodger and tax cheat?

  65. 65
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Princess: Wikipedia:

    The Philadelphia and Reading Railroad (P&R) was one of the first railroads in the United States. Along with the Little Schuylkill, a horse-drawn railroad in the Schuylkill River Valley, it formed the earliest components of what became the Reading Company. Primarily, the P&R was constructed to haul anthracite coal from the mines in northeastern Pennsylvania’s Coal Region to Philadelphia.[2]

    The original P&R mainline extended south from the mining town of Pottsville to Reading and then onward to Philadelphia, following the gently graded banks of the Schuylkill River for nearly all of the 93-mile journey.[2][3] The line contained double track upon its completion in 1843.

    The P&R became profitable almost immediately. Energy-dense coal had been replacing increasingly scarce wood as fuel in businesses and homes since the 1810s, and P&R-delivered coal was one of the first alternatives to the near-monopoly held by Lehigh Coal & Navigation Company since the 1820s. Soon the P&R bought or leased many of the railroads in the Schuylkill River Valley and extended westward and north along the Susquehanna into the southern end of the Coal Region. In Philadelphia, the Reading also built Port Richmond, the self-proclaimed “Largest privately owned railroad tidewater terminal in the world”,[3] which burnished the P&R’s bottom lines by allowing coal to be loaded onto ships and barges for export. In 1871, the Reading established a subsidiary called the Philadelphia and Reading Coal and Iron Company, which set about buying anthracite coal mines in the Coal Region. This vertical expansion gave the P&R almost full control of coal from mining through to market, allowing it to compete successfully with like-organized competitors such as Lehigh Coal & Navigation and the Delaware & Hudson Canal Company.

    The heavy investment in coal paid off quickly. By 1871, the Reading was the largest company in the world, with $170,000,000 in gross value,[4] and may have been the first conglomerate in the world. In 1879, the Reading gained control of the North Pennsylvania Railroad and gained access to the burgeoning steel industry in the Lehigh Valley.[3]

    The Reading further expanded its coal empire by reaching New York City by gaining control of the Delaware and Bound Brook Railroad in 1879, and building the Port Reading Railroad in 1892 with a line from Port Reading Junction to the Port Reading on the Arthur Kill. This allowed direct delivery of coal to industries in the Port of New York and New Jersey in northeastern New Jersey and New York City by rail and barge instead of the longer trip by ships from Port Richmond around Cape May.

    Instead of broadening its rail network, the Reading invested its vast wealth in anthracite and its transport in the mid-19th century. This led to financial trouble in the 1870s.[clarification needed] In 1890, Reading president Archibald A. McLeod saw that more riches could be earned by expanding its rail network and becoming a trunk railroad. McLeod went about trying to control neighboring railroads in 1891. He was able to gain control of the Lehigh Valley Railroad, Central Railroad of New Jersey, and the Boston and Maine Railroad. The Reading almost achieved its goal of becoming a trunk road, but the deal was scuttled by J.P.Morgan and other rail barons, who did not want more competition in the northeastern railroad business.[2][5] The Reading was relegated to a regional railroad for the rest of its history.

  66. 66
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Raven: Bunch of old codgers.

  67. 67
    NotMax says:


    Managed to experience multiple hours of what I think people here have referred to as “sleep.” Then at 4 a.m., wide awake.

  68. 68
    Raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: The dude in the white hat is a fitness guru! He absolutely ripped and is a trainer who spent a year in China with the Bejing Ducks of the Chinese Basketball Association. His stories of long train trips and playing in gyms with only 3 or 4 Americans are intense. (fomer union hod carrier I should add)

  69. 69
    JPL says:

    @Raven: That’s a great picture.

  70. 70

    My building is having a big holiday event today. People tell me the place will be jammed. I’m supposed to sell books and I’m nervous. I’d rather give a reading in a 500 seat auditorium than sit behind a table and ask people to buy my books.

  71. 71
    frosty says:

    @raven: On our last snowbird trip we took an Eco-Tour of the 10,000 Islands and got to see just about every critter possible, including manatees and dolphins, and lots of birds.

    I’m still waiting for my first sighting of a roseate spoonbill. I don’t think it’s gonna happen in the Panhandle (our destination this February).

  72. 72
    MomSense says:


    I learned last year that veterans who use MJ lose their eligibility for veteran treatment court even if their use was prescribed by a physician. It ended sadly for the veteran.

  73. 73
    MomSense says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Any YA former Girl Scouts you could hire to run your table?

  74. 74
    frosty says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: LOL, my friends in college in California pronounced Reading Railroad with a long E when we were playing Monopoly. Having grown up in PA, I had to gently correct them.

    And yes, the Reading Terminal is great. I had the best cheesesteak in Philly there. South 4th Street is good, but this was better.

  75. 75
    debbie says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    You’ll do great! You’ll be talking to interested people, not hawking your wares. Five hundred people: You must live in a very large building.

  76. 76

    @MomSense: I’d love to have teens run it, but I’m short on teen acquaintances at the moment. Mr DAW will serve as my lovely assistant.

  77. 77

    @debbie: Something like 300 people live in the complex, but everyone’s family will be here and staff and their families come too. My table will be located right across from a table doing face tatoos and the entrance to the theater showing “Elf.” It should be fine once I get started. It’s just not my favorite thing. Writers tend to be introverts.

    I don’t know how Satby does this so well.

  78. 78
    laura says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: our Union circulates legal bulletins from Minehan, Jackson Lewis and the like to keep us updated on case law and NLRB rulings. Most of the law firms that advise HR departments have advised limiting testing the workforce in pre-employment only due to the state of testing, the inability to determine when/how invested, and the risk of litigation for wrongful termination.
    I would never negotiate a contract that would expand testing Members beyond what is mandated by DOT regs, and have represented some who came up positive for mj.

  79. 79
    satby says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: remember, I’m not a writer (I wish I was)! Writing is much more personal a product.
    So I have space between myself and my products that can keep it more impersonal. Honestly I don’t like lavender, for instance, but most people do so I make it for them. They don’t have to like any particular thing I make and that’s fine, chances are pretty good it’s not my personal taste either.

  80. 80
    debbie says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I used to sell books (as a publisher rep) and I surprised myself sometimes with my success at it. It didn’t translate into salesmanship though. Turns out I succeeded because I loved books and I loved sharing my love of them. I’d never be able to sell other stuff like tractor parts, etc.

  81. 81

    @debbie: Part of my reticence comes because everything at this event is free except my books. So maybe I feel out of place. But really, it will be fine.

  82. 82
    Brachiator says:


    LOL, my friends in college in California pronounced Reading Railroad with a long E when we were playing Monopoly. Having grown up in PA, I had to gently correct them.

    Most people I know, even friends from the East Coast (and myself of course), pronounced it with a long E.

    Now I know better!!

  83. 83
    satby says:


    Turns out I succeeded because I loved books and I loved sharing my love of them.

    That’s the key to selling anything. It’s a bit embarrassing to admit I just love soap though.
    @Dorothy A. Winsor: you’re going to do just great!

  84. 84
    Brachiator says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Hope everything goes well and that you have a great time, and sell lots of books.

  85. 85
    Kay says:

    This really helped with my overall understanding of what exactly happened in the spring and summer of 2016 and the election.

    It’s Comey’s testimony to a House committee last week. Trey Gowdy, despite reports that he is (now) doing his job and no longer acting as Trump’s defense counsel, is still a hack, but Comey answers Gowdy’s questions completely- he doesn’t let Gowdy get away with questions that are geared to finding bias against Trump or exonerating Trump- so one really can discern some facts, despite Gowdy’s attempts to shield Team Trump and investigate Hillary Clinton.

  86. 86

    @Kay: I’m about halfway through Comey’s testimony posted on TPM. I can’t believe the Rs are still after Lisa Page and Peter Strzok. Also, they seem to think the Director did every interview and wrote every document himself. This is like asking the president of GM what engineers were thinking when they designed some part that turned out to be defective.

    ETA: Also the Steele dossier. Cripes.

  87. 87
    debbie says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Trump is tweeting that Comey lied 245 times during his testimony. Are you able to find them all? //

  88. 88
    japa21 says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I’ve seen you in that situation. You love what you do and the books you write. You’ll do great.

  89. 89

    @debbie: I just had to click away from it for a while because Ratcliffe’s questions about the FISA application on Carter Page made my blood pressure go up.

    @japa21: Thank you. I do love what I do. I feel unbelievably lucky to be able to do it.

  90. 90
    Kay says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    I can’t believe the Rs are still after Lisa Page and Peter Strzok. Also, they seem to think the Director did every interview and wrote every document himself.

    Right but that’s the Trump Preemptive Defense line of questioning they’ve been doing for 2 years. Comey is “overanswering” the questions. It’s how a witness gets information into the record now matter what question is asked. So, Gowdy asks a leading question intended to elicit a response that Trump can use and Comey gives a much more inclusive answer that encompasses what actually happened. Comey is obviously a pro- he knows how to answer questions- but even ordinary witnesses do this intuitively- they add context because narrow answers are misleading and reductive. Gowdy wants “misleading and reductive” because he’s playing the role of prosecutor re: Hillary Clinton.

    What’s disturbing is how closely Gowdy’s defense of Trump by redirecting to Clinton comports with HOW this was reported by political media. They did the same thing.

    I can’t stand Comey- I think he has a huge ego and he went far beyond his job and, worse, went far beyond his job and fucked up the job he invented, but I do think he makes a valiant attempt to get the facts out and into the narrative.

    So there will be a record. One can put these pieces together- congressional testimony and the Mueller docs- and get some idea of what happened. Which is all I want right now. I want to know what happened. I don’t know what should happen next yet. I still don’t know what happened.

  91. 91
    Schlemazel says:

    Dump is counting every “I don’t recall” or “I don’t know” as a lie. A standard we know we will not have to hold him to in order to hit 245 lies. He will hit that number just taking the oath

  92. 92
    debbie says:


    I wonder whether Trump has hit the 7,000 on his lies?

  93. 93
    Kay says:


    Comey as much as says they knew Clinton had no real exposure to prosecution – they proceeded because if she had lied that would have indicated there was more to the emails than they knew. In other words, the facts they had in front of them didn’t indicate an offense, but there’s always the chance they could find something as a result of interviews and if someone is lying that leads them to believe there’s more there.

    And that makes sense. Whatever we know or don’t know about Trump and his low quality hires we know they lied about contacts with the Russian government, so why did they lie?

  94. 94
    Kay says:

    The “head of state” immunity to prosecution is to me untenable. Trump is using this to remain in power and defer prosecution, which means we get a giant fucking lying crook as President unless we want to count on impeachment.

    Bad rules or norms should be replaced and this rule in no longer working in the public interest. Change it.

    No one should be immune from prosecution. including the president. The damage that is done by protecting him outweighs the damage that could come from charging him. We don’t have to commit suicide as a country in order to protect a norm that serves only to protect the powerful.

    Trump and his low quality hires like busting up norms. Let’s not give them the protection of this one.

  95. 95
    Platonailedit says:

    Prosecutors have examined the statute of limitations on the campaign finance violations and believe charges could be brought against Trump if he is not re-elected. ⁦@npfandos⁩ ⁦@maggieNYT@nytmike— Peter Baker (@peterbakernyt) December 9, 2018

    The rethugs were threatening to impeach Obama on all kindsa imaginary ‘high crimes and misdemeanors’ lies and the fucking press were dutifully stenographing those lies. And yet here we have actual high crimes that were committed by this thug and his team of henchmen and yet the press bastards are still hedging whether he can be impeached?

  96. 96
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: Agreed.

    It’s the same gasbags who peddled the “nothing to see here” stuff that believe the POTUS/TOTUS cannot be charged while in office. I agree it allows the criminal too much freedom to continue to do terrible harm.

    WRT Adam Schiff etc. saying that, I would guess it is a political calculation.

  97. 97

    @Kay:@Elizabelle: Thirded. No one is above the rule of law.

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