All of us doing the small things is as powerful, if not more powerful, than a few trying to do the big things.

Stay alert! Stay safe! Vote like your life and the life of America depends on it! And get everyone you know to vote like their lives and the life of America depends on it!

Open thread!

154 replies
  1. 1
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Those folk who heckled Sessions aren’t true Christians according to most Rightwingers so it’s all good.

  2. 2
    Humdog says:

    I am heartened by Sessions finally getting pushback from Christian leaders. I hope they keep speaking up, particularly in their sermons. I will not waste my breathe trying to convince them to change their hearts or voting patterns, but if change will ever come to them, it will come from what they hear on Sundays.
    This is good news.

  3. 3
    Gator90 says:

    That Islamic leader put tears in my eyes just now. Good tears.

  4. 4
    NotMax says:

    Sad statement on our deformed times when simple human decency becomes an act of heroism.

  5. 5
    J R in WV says:

    Those ministers didn’t heckle Attorney General Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III – they preached the gospel of Jesus Christ to him, and were dragged out.

    I wish I could say I was astounded that at a meeting to discuss “religious freedom” ministers preaching the gospel were dragged out, and that people were not shocked by that. Apparently most attendees at the meeting applauded the actions of the police, dragging out ministers preaching the gospel.

    I am not at all surprised by this example of religious hatred on the part of AG Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III and the others attending the meeting about “religious freedom” at all, and only understand that their intentions are very clearly religious freedom for me, and no freedom at all for thee. None.

    @Patricia Kayden:

    And I am not heckling you at all, I know that you’re agreeing with me and putting the reichtwing anti-christians at the meeting in their place.

  6. 6
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @J R in WV: Federalist Society meeting. You know the people that spend all their time that one must always go with the original meaning of the text.

  7. 7
    japa21 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: The text not including the four Gospels.

  8. 8
    debbie says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Nothing more blasphenous than 25:42—43, is there? //

  9. 9
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @J R in WV: I forgot the sarcasm tag.

  10. 10
    debbie says:

    Last night, I read about a letter being sent to Trump by Pittsburgh religious leaders asking him not to come to Pittsburgh. Guess that was fake news since he’s announced he’s going there? :(

  11. 11
    Timurid says:


    I hope he gets booed off the stage.

  12. 12
  13. 13
    Ha Nguyen says:

    I just read this from File770, but going to the source:


    Survival of the Richest
    The wealthy are plotting to leave us behind

    Douglas Rushkoff
    After I arrived, I was ushered into what I thought was the green room. But instead of being wired with a microphone or taken to a stage, I just sat there at a plain round table as my audience was brought to me: five super-wealthy guys — yes, all men — from the upper echelon of the hedge fund world. After a bit of small talk, I realized they had no interest in the information I had prepared about the future of technology. They had come with questions of their own.
    They started out innocuously enough. Ethereum or bitcoin? Is quantum computing a real thing? Slowly but surely, however, they edged into their real topics of concern.
    Which region will be less impacted by the coming climate crisis: New Zealand or Alaska? Is Google really building Ray Kurzweil a home for his brain, and will his consciousness live through the transition, or will it die and be reborn as a whole new one? Finally, the CEO of a brokerage house explained that he had nearly completed building his own underground bunker system and asked, “How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?”

  14. 14
    geg6 says:


    Thousands of Pittsburghers have signed that letter, including me. It is still getting signatures.

  15. 15
    Mathguy says:

    I thought about commenting on the Sessions item, but the man sickens me so much I’m at a loss for words.

  16. 16
    debbie says:


    I’m glad it’s for real.

  17. 17
    jl says:

    Thanks. Got repeated weepy eyes looking at those inspiring items on this end.

  18. 18
    Coldie says:

    The man in the main video is comedian haha Davis. He always shows love. I love that guy!

  19. 19
    debbie says:


    Are only Pittsburghers supposed to sign?

  20. 20
    jonas says:

    @debbie: Conservative Christians get pissed when they’re reminded that Jesus cares about how you behave towards others, particularly the poor and marginalized, not just that you can pack a circuit court with a bunch of corporate whores.

  21. 21
    zhena gogolia says:


    I love those men, using the words of Jesus Christ to rebuke him, and he calls it an “attack.”

  22. 22
    satby says:

    @Ha Nguyen: that’s insane, and unfortunately not surprising.

  23. 23
    dm says:

    Heckling Trumpsters with Bible readings is the new incivility.

  24. 24
    zhena gogolia says:


    I was supposed to read that Scripture in church right after the family separations got going in earnest. I broke down and couldn’t finish. All respect to that man for his calm ability to quote it at the Pharisee.

  25. 25
    debbie says:


    Thanks. Jews are unequaled when it comes to writing awesome letters!

  26. 26
    debbie says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    He had to be shaking in rage.

  27. 27
    chris says:

    @geg6: Thousands maybe but there is one rabbi who said he’d be honoured to meet the president. I just heard that the shitgibbon and Melamine are going to Pittsburgh tomorrow.

  28. 28
    jl says:

    @jl: Though weepy eyes mixed with a little rage at the Sessons clip.

  29. 29
    evap says:

    Just back from voting! There were a lot of people voting, but the line moved quickly. I was happy to see a bunch of people voting who appeared to be in the 18-29 group. Go Stacey!!!

  30. 30
    Gelfling 545 says:

    He was not just any religious leader but a UM minister, one of Sessions’ own denomination and he called on him as a brother in faith to repent and conform to the Gospel and Sessions had him evicted.

  31. 31

    @dm: It’s brilliant really

  32. 32
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @debbie: I’m sure Rightwingers can find a way to interpret those texts to support their hateful beliefs.

  33. 33
    J R in WV says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I heard the sarcasm tag just fine. I tried to post an ETA to make it clear that I wasn’t trying to heckle you, but my connection dropped out before I could update the post. No offense towards you at all~!!!~

    Commenting is sometimes hard… to be clear about who you intend to spear, who you want to support. Of course, I will always be putting Herr Drumpf down into his proper place, and supporting nearly all B-J jackals, with the few exceptions we are all aware of.

  34. 34
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Gelfling 545: Someone recently joked that if Jesus Christ came back, he would be killed by Christianists since their tolerance of foreign, brown skinned, Middle Easterners is at an all time low.

  35. 35

    It’s just that simple: The Talibaptists want us dead. Or at the very least, not exist.

    From someone who shared his support of trans people in a some large Trump Facebook groups:

    The post got hundreds of comments, finally thousands. Immediately. The Trump supporters had a very clear answer and they were adamant about it. Almost no one answered with “the men’s room”. A few said things like “if they’ve got a vagina, they use a woman’s room, if they have a penis, they use the men’s room.” But the majority of the of the commenters had an answer I hadn’t considered at all. These people had worked out a very simple solution to the problem of transgender people and the norms revolving public restrooms.

    They wanted transgender people to die.

    They were quite explicit about it, very blunt. “They should die.” That simple. That concise. “They should die.”

    Let me be entirely clear about this – they knew what they were saying, they knew exactly what they wanted. They didn’t want a trans man in the men’s room and they didn’t want a trans man in the woman’s room. They wanted the trans man to be dead.

    Of course some of them were more loquacious than that. They had reasons they should die, preferred methods, they expressed their feelings about the fantasized the deaths, but death or something similar was the most common answer. “Stop being”, essentially. A lot of other people answered “they should stay home”, maintaining the status quo without having to deal with the problem while still allowing transgender people to, you know, live, but mostly death or some sort of violence was the preferred option. Comment after comment, they should die, fuck them, stay-at-home, don’t use the bathroom, I’ll kill them if I catch them in the bathroom with my daughter, they should die, they should die, they should die.

    Oh, and in case That’s not plain enough, it wasn’t just death they were threatening. They were threatening anything they could think of. Torture, castration, humiliation, at adults and children alike. Any brutal, vicious insult or threat imaginable. I’ve watched these groups for years, dozens of them. Anyone who watches the news, who’s seen our president make a speech, knows how mean, how grotesque, how petty and ugly these people can be. The things they say about Mexicans, Muslims, about women, gay people, immigrant children. Even if you haven’t been in one of these groups, it’s not hard to imagine. Jesus, our president publicly mocked a disabled man. But I still wasn’t prepared for the comments in this thread. Just sheer, stark, gut level hatred, unencumbered by the slightest empathy. Loathing. Disgust. Raw hate.

    As much time as I’ve spent in these groups, examining these people, I didn’t think anything could shock me. I was wrong. Maybe it shouldn’t have, but it did.

    There is not one single issue that brings the evil out in Trump supporters the way trans-people do, there is no class of people more loathed. More than anything else, gender self-determination symbolizes precisely the social progress that animates the Trump right. They despise it and the people who embody it. Understand this. This issue is central to these people on the right, there is nothing they feel more deeply about. The Trump right does not want a solution to the social problem of trans people and restroom use. They simply do not want trans people to exist. That is what they want. What they demand. Nonexistence.


    Yeah, that’s what we face. Trans people are heros for just daring to leave the house every day.

    #WontBeErased #StillFuckingHere

  36. 36
    geg6 says:


    Don’t know. It went out to several local FB groups that I’m on.

  37. 37

    Looks a reference to a body part put my comment at moderation. Front pagers, can you lend a hand. Thanks.

  38. 38
  39. 39
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @geg6: How you all holding up?

  40. 40
    lamh36 says:

    @J R in WV: were they people of color? Cause ya know, as many Black Republicans have learned, their Republican brethren see color first, then affliation afterwards.

  41. 41
    Mary G says:

    @Ha Nguyen: I am really starting to believe that most rich people do believe in climate change and are counting on it to cut down the poor population so they won’t have to pay as many taxes. I don’t think it’s going to work out the way they think it will.

    @Gelfling 545: From his own denomination should leave a mark, but I’m afraid Sessions is beyond any shame.

    Small thing I did today, besides postcards: changed my Twitter avi to an “I Voted” sticker. I am sure 100% of my small following have already voted or plan to, but it made me feel curiously good.

  42. 42
    geg6 says:


    That would be the rabbi of the Tree of Life congregation. However, the letter was started by the previous rabbi. Plus, he doesn’t speak for the other two congregations or the Squirrel Hill community. Let alone the city. We’re talking about one of the most liberal and progressive communities in the city. People are agonized about this. They hate him and want to protest, but no one wants to ruin a funeral or cause an incident that he can use to paint the protesters as insensitive to the mourners. We’re all waiting to see what Bend the Arc decides would be best.

  43. 43
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:


    Sad statement on our deformed times when simple human decency becomes an act of heroism.

    Has it not always been this way?

  44. 44
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ha Nguyen: How’ve you been?

  45. 45
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @zhena gogolia: Saducee. The Pharisees were the early rabbis. The historical Jesus was a Pharisee.

  46. 46
    geg6 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    We have great leadership here. Pittsburgh strong! Heading out to a Conor Lamb rally!

  47. 47
    lamh36 says:

    So Jewish faith leaders in Pittsburgh told Chump not to come while they are focused on buring their dead…and tha mofo is going anyway..

  48. 48
    lamh36 says:

    With all the fuckery going on in Georgia, the Georgia Dems are calling in the big dog! ATL/Morehouse…guess who’s coming your way!!!


    Governor candidate, GA
    BREAKING: President @BarackObama is coming to Georgia! Learn more: http://GeorgiaDemocrat.org/obama #gapol

  49. 49
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: should be free now

  50. 50
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @geg6: We’re Keeping good thoughts for you all.

  51. 51
    debbie says:


    Hope Kemp reacts better than he did to President Carter’s request he remove himself from running the election.

  52. 52
    montanareddog says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Someone recently joked that if Jesus Christ came back, he would be killed by Christianists since their tolerance of foreign, brown skinned, Middle Easterners is at an all time low.

    Just after Rod Dreher and his ilk sneered at him for being a “Social Justice Warrior” who wants to destroy Christianity in order to promote homosexuality and transgenderism

  53. 53
    FelonyGovt says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: Shaking with rage at those comments. What the hell is wrong with people (a question I have been asking myself more and more, especially lately). Please know that there are many of us who are outraged and stand with you.

  54. 54
    Lapassionara says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: Whoa! What screwed up people! I can’t even imagine!

  55. 55
    Matt says:

    @Ha Nguyen:

    How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?

    Start eating lots of food that tastes bad, that should buy him a couple extra weeks.

  56. 56
    The Fat Kate Middleton says:

    Though I’m debating whether to respond here (I mainly lurk, due to that fact that anything I try to say seems unbearably stupid to me), I am in tears after watching the first two videos above, and I have had a difficult day. You may or may not know that I’ve been dealing with breast cancer for the past year and a half, and just three months ago, my oncologist declared I was in remission. Yay! Today she told me I had another very suspicious bump, and wants me to come in tomorrow morning for a mammogram and an ultrasound. I tell myself it could be anything, but this news on top of all the awfulness of the past week have nearly done me in. Thanks for letting me share here – no need for response or even sympathies – I know this group well enough to know it’s there. Again – those videos were so needed. Thanks for sharing, Adam

  57. 57
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @lamh36: first Will Ferrell, now Barack Obama? Go Dawgs!

  58. 58
    grandpa john says:

    @J R in WV: Republican Bibles don’t contain the New Testament Books which actually contain the teachings of Jesus

  59. 59

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I’m sure Rightwingers can find a way to interpret those texts to support their hateful beliefs.

    They already have. Their reading is that when Jesus says “Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren”, the emphasis is on “my brethren”. IOW, it applies only to helping other Christians, not to any people whatsoever. Naturally, they use the same definition of who’s really a Christian they always use, so it really only means they have to help other members of their own church.

    Shorter: they’re Pharisees. They always look at each passage individually and apply a cramped, legalistic interpretation that lets them do as they please, rather than trying to understand Christ’s teachings as a consistent whole.

  60. 60
    Brachiator says:

    Sing it, children

    How many miles will it take
    To see the sun
    And how many years until it’s done
    Kiss my confusion away in the night
    Lay by side when the morning comes

    And the baby looks around him
    And shares his bed of hay
    With the burrow in the palace of the king

    He’s a stranger in a strange land
    Tell me why
    He’s a stranger in a strange land
    Just a stranger in a strange land

    Leon Russell

  61. 61
    J R in WV says:


    Are only Pittsburghers supposed to sign?

    Too late, I’m already on the list of signers. Not Jewish, not from Pittsburgh, but against hate and religious and political and racist violence, big time!!

  62. 62
    Humdog says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: Very sorry to read of your new scare. It is important to take comfort where you can find it. Sending you support and good wishes over the intertubes.

  63. 63
    Citizen_X says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: Holy crap, that’s appalling.

  64. 64
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Sister Golden Bear:
    Maybe those bigots are the ones who should die. How would they like being told that? To have their hatred thrown right back in their faces?

    These people are going to kill somebody. Not even potentially just some innocent trans person but somebody they perceive to be trans but is really cis.

  65. 65
    lamh36 says:

    The View’s Joy Behar snaps after Meghan McCain interrupts her twice to complain https://www.rawstory.com/2018/10/views-joy-behar-snaps-meghan-mccain-interrupts-twice-complain/#.W9eRS39VI-4.twitter

    Look, like it or not, whatever “deference” Meghan was getting because she’s John McCain’s daughter…is almost if not at its sell by date.

    The McCain name may still do something for her in some circles, but in many…that “McCain” protection she was getting is over.

  66. 66
    Felanius Kootea says:

    I voted already in CA because I will be out of town November 6. I’ve maxed out on political donations.
    My heart is heavy – I keep thinking about the 97 year old woman who survived the holocaust, made a life
    here and then had it cut short in what should have been a safe place by a shooter. That eats at me.
    I don’t know what else to do.

  67. 67

    @lamh36: I had that same thought about Meghan McCain. A lot of what she had to offer was access to her father’s thoughts. We have no reason to care about her own.

    @Felanius Kootea: A holocaust survivor was one of the dead in the Virginia Tech shooting too. It’s heart breaking.

  68. 68
    Schlemazel says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton:
    7 year cancer survivor here: STAY STRONG. You beat the bastard once so even if the news is not great you can do it again. It is entirely possible it is just a cyst & nothing will come of it (MIL get those and with a history of breast cancer it always causes stress). Unload here, it might make you feel better and these jackals are a special bunch.

  69. 69
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @FelonyGovt: Mostly the people commenting think it’s funny and/or cool to show off at being outrageously hateful. That’s how they “own the libs.” That’s what gives them the sense of being alive. And frankly I want *them* to stop being. I don’t want them to get better. I don’t want them to feel meaning or love or like they have a place in the world. I don’t have to be the bigger person. They are loathsome. I didn’t use to feel this much hate for total strangers, but at this point that’s what being a Republican gets from me. I just do not care what happens to them. Morally, civic-ly, this is a problem. Emotionally, it’s quite satisfying.

  70. 70
    lamh36 says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Right…it’s just the way it is. Unlike say Caroline Kennedy or Maria Shriver, who used their family name to continue to do good works…uh…what has Meghan done with her daddy’s name other than getting on the wingnut circus? The View is more mainstream…than anything on Fox…so…what else can Meghan do?

  71. 71
    Barbara says:

    @lamh36: She was flummoxed because she hadn’t been given the party approved obfuscation talking points before the subjects came up.

  72. 72
    Barbara says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: The VTech professor blocked the door to give his students a chance to exit by the windows. He literally gave his own life for them.

  73. 73
    Brachiator says:


    The View’s Joy Behar snaps after Meghan McCain interrupts her twice to complain

    Trump insulted her father numerous times and Meghan McCain still wants to defend him. Sad!

  74. 74
    gbbalto says:

    @Ha Nguyen: At least that last guy was thinking ahead. The answer is that you cannot keep the guard from mutinying. The captain might well knock you off and “marry” your daughter.
    I suspect that this didn’t happen to feudal lords because all the neighboring lords would immediately march to put down the mutiny, for obvious reasons. These guys won’t have an organized system like that.
    ETA: They won’t last long.

  75. 75
    Bill Arnold says:

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    It’s just that simple: The Talibaptists want us dead. Or at the very least, not exist.

    That’s a considerably higher level of evil than I expected. Is it actually representative, or self-selected?[0]
    Is there a good (realistic) discussion available of short-term and long-term tactics?
    (A cassandra in another venue (with a uncanny view of the future) was warning any American trans readers well over a year ago that they should have escape plans ready, including passports. I’m trying to uhm reverse engineer how she knew this; there were other warnings too.)
    [0] Global Attitudes Toward Transgender People, Ipsos online poll roughly late oct/early nov 2017

  76. 76
    JPL says:

    @lamh36: After watching the entire thing, I’m not sure what McCain is suppose to be . She obviously thinks her job is to disagree and that segment left her out in the cold. Sad.

  77. 77
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: Aboout 3 or 4 yrs ago the topic for the SoBapt annual meeting was transgender people. Within a yr or so the state legislatires started passing ‘bathroom bills’. When I first heard about the SoBapt focus, I couldn’t understand where it had come from.

  78. 78
    lamh36 says:

    @Brachiator: isn’t her husband one of the conserv think tank guy? Without her dad around, my bet is she takes whatever position her husband is spouting. Not saying a wife always goes with the husband, but even before she was married, she basically clung to whatever her dad’s talking points were. Now she’s got to find another

  79. 79
    Bill Arnold says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    Maybe those bigots are the ones who should die.

    I thought that too, for more than a moment.
    For sure, their power in American politics needs to be totally drained, ASAP.
    How to change those attitudes, quickly, is a seriously important question/problem.

  80. 80
    JR says:

    @Ha Nguyen: it’s like the last days of the Ancien Regime

  81. 81
    CarolPW says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: My first post-mastectomy lump was a silicon granuloma because my implant was leaking and my second was a neurofibroma so both completely benign. I know how terrifying it is when you have a new lump, but I got my first mastectomy when I was 34, and I just turned 68. Got no boobs left, so I’m bequeathing every single bit of my breast cancer luck to you. I’m so sorry, be well.

  82. 82
  83. 83
    Sister Golden Bear says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks!

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: They already kill us. google Transgender Day of Remembrance. Per capita trans people have the high hate crime murder rate of any minority group in the states.

    And they already kill people who are gender nonconforming. For example, there was a horrific case in LA recently where a couple abused and tortured their young son to death becuse he was too feminine.

  84. 84
    lamh36 says:

    Eric Holder, taking the stage for Andrew Gillum in Fort Lauderdale, interrupted by heckler accusing him of inciting violence. Holder responds: “Yeah, yeah, yeah… Why don’t you cut out the fake outrage, my man?”

    2:52 PM – 29 Oct 2018

    Totally read this hearing Holder’s voice…lol

  85. 85


    I suspect that this didn’t happen to feudal lords because all the neighboring lords would immediately march to put down the mutiny, for obvious reasons.

    The feudal lords had three big advantages over these douches:

    1) They and their followers were Christians who honestly worried about going to Hell for murder.
    2) They were smart enough to keep the peasants around, which gave the followers both somebody lower in society to look down on.
    3) They were warriors themselves, so they had a reasonable chance of being able to kill any follower to tried something.

  86. 86
    Jeffro says:

    Jennifer Rubin has the. epic take on why Trumpov can’t tone it down – selling hate and spreading division is all he has.


  87. 87
    Ocotillo says:

    Embarrassing but my wife and I record The View and watch it in the evening. I know I must be annoying my wife by pausing the show and shouting at Meghan. It’s just that it appears she feels she should get to talk half of the time because everyone else is a liberal and ganging up on her.

    Her husband is Ben somebody who lost a couple of jobs because of plagiarism.

  88. 88
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Jeffro: It’s hard to believe she was once Jenghazi.

  89. 89
    tybee says:

    @raven: stained water. i’m guessing no trout?

  90. 90
    lamh36 says:

    Following Following @Eclectablog
    More Chris Savage Retweeted Howard Mortman
    VP Pence apparently couldn’t find an actual rabbi. Instead he got a Christian leader of a group of Christians who call themselves “Messianic Jews”. Yeshua = Jesus. Actual Jews paying attention to this are outraged at this decision, btw.

  91. 91
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Gelfling 545: brother in faith? More like grifter to grifter.

  92. 92
    debbie says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton:

    I’m responding anyway. I hope it’s nothing and that it will be resolved ASAP.

  93. 93
    Aleta says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: That’s a lot to endure tonight. Let us know how it goes tomorrow. Sending live love.

  94. 94
    Jay says:


    Yeah, no. My Clan got started in 810, when the Laird died with out issue. He had 14 illigitimate sons. He was also the Earl of Mar.

    So, the illigitimate sons formed Clans and went to war with each other and the newly appointed Earl to try to seize and hold the castle and the seat.

    My many many many great Grandfather one day, woke up in a nice, fortified village, looked around at all the warriors, men, families, cattle, villages and farms he lead, and said “fuck it, I’m a Laird”.

    Several years later, on a winter’s day, his son and a handful of supporters, forced their way into the castle, and as the Ddeside Tales tells it, ” so abused the poor Earl that he promptly died of his wounds”.

    There was a sword point marriage to the Earl’s recent Widow, and it was all nice and “legal”.

    Nobody wanted to “deal with” the “revolt”, because it was winter, it was a strong Clan, with allies, a Bishop had performed the marriage, and it was not worth “going to war”, and maybe losing their holdings to the Clan, an ally of the Clan, or a neigboring Clan while they were away fighting.

    So they just sat tight, holding onto what they had.

    In Primitive War, you skirmish, you raid, you steal, but you only go to war when you have a 98% chance of winning, and it’s every man for themselves.

  95. 95
    gbbalto says:

    @gbbalto: Figure that when you build your bunker/compound in any remote area that the locals will be VERY interested in what you are up to. If you start stockpiling it, they will notice.
    OK, things go to hell. If you don’t have an adequate guard force already in place (I figure >20 for 24-7 coverage) the locals are likely to beat you to the spot. Then you have to deal with defeating your own defense arrangements. If you manage that, a lot of your defenses will be destroyed in the process. Then you are an easier target for any bandit group that is around. Or if you prevail, why shouldn’t the guard force take over? There will be fewer mouths to feed. The big shot really has no resources at this point beyond the stockpiles. What can he offer the guard NOT to take over?
    The Tuscan hill towns seem to be the best examples of long-term survival through many episodes of chaos (up to 3000 years!). The town is walled, including the back sides of houses. The people cultivate fields on the flat below the hill but can run for it if needed. There are enough fortifications and defenders to deter the smaller bandit operations. If a bigger bandit (i.e. a powerful nobleman/warlord) appears, you can probably cut a deal so that he avoids losses, and avoid being sacked, and retain some level of independence.
    I’ve tried to think this out because this may be our future, sooner than we would like to think. I think only communities of at least several hundred people can hope to survive…
    ETA: These are fools, however rich. They are being suckered into paying for elaborate but essentially useless hidey-holes.

  96. 96

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: I’m so sorry. Hope it turns out to be nothing. Hugs, if hugs are OK.

  97. 97
    Brachiator says:


    isn’t her husband one of the conserv think tank guy?

    She only recently married this guy, in 2017. Maybe she still needs him emotionally since the death of her father. Based on what she said at his funeral, I thought she had more of her parents’ toughness.

    Her husband seems to be a second rate conservative pundit, no big deal.

  98. 98

    @Brachiator: Why is she even on the show. Besides being McCain spawn what are her qualifications?

  99. 99
    oatler. says:

    The moneylenders throwing Jesus out of the Temple.

  100. 100
    gbbalto says:

    @Jay: OK, Scotland! You are right, sometimes a fait accompli would also work, not just in Scotland. Illegitimate sons could pull that off sometimes. I just think, that in general, the local lords would put down a revolt to discourage the practice. Who got the fiefdom afterward would depend…

  101. 101
    Jay says:


    Prince Prospero and the Red Death is how the “Elites” figure they will survive global climate change.

    Unfortunately, only communities can survive, not rich douches sitting on piles of MRE’s and ammo in a bunker.

    In order to survive communities will have to adapt constantly.

    With out functioning high technology Nation States, able to undertake massive programs of mitigation, survival will require communities preserving, adapting and changing for 10,000 years.

    The MRE’s will have run out by then.

  102. 102
    Jeffro says:

    @A Ghost To Most: she does know how to bring the righteousness-glad she is using her powers for good (for now)

    I like this whole new energy I’m seeing of people calling out Fox, calling for boycotts if its advertisers, of beating on the GOP enablers (instead of just spinning in rage at Trumpov all day). Much more productive!!

  103. 103
    raven says:

    @tybee: Actually I caught a couple of really nice ones but the SCDNR has asked people to catch and release because the cold weather did a job on them last year.

  104. 104
  105. 105
    gbbalto says:

    @Jay: Absolutely agree. But as John Michael Greer points out, each generation will only have to deal with/survive their current step in the collapse. The Mayans who survived their civilization’s collapse simply started operating small farming villages, which they have lived in until now. I foresee a grim future but also survival via communities. Humans can do this: we have done it before.

  106. 106
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: I did not know that…

  107. 107
    tybee says:

    @raven: water in that pic doesn’t look as muddy as the shot with the red.
    glad you caught some. GA DNR wants everything trout over 18″ released for the same reasons.

  108. 108
    raven says:

    @tybee: Yea, we had hits from two big reds offshore a bit but both broke lines. The 5.5 lb flounder was really fund as were the two slot reds. I’m actually going to go out with him again Wed. It’s more than I need to be spending but what the hell.

  109. 109
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Jeffro: I may be a heretic, and I’m definitely a heathen, but I see a whole new generation of real, un-courtier journalists who are pissed, and honey-badgering these assholes every chance that get.

    I haven’t seen this much hard journalism since Watergate. I find that encouraging.

  110. 110
    MomSense says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton:

    Sending you a big hug. Whatever happens, we care about you and we are here for you.

    @Sister Golden Bear:

    The evil is overwhelming sometimes and it makes me furious that transgender people have to contend with such hate. I just want you to know that there are people who care and who love you and want to help. Sending you a big hug.

  111. 111
    germy says:

    There's no evidence Andrew Gillum is a thief. That's the first time Trump has called someone a thief on Twitter. Gillum is a Black man. pic.twitter.com/sfNUpceDOF— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) October 29, 2018

  112. 112
    tybee says:


    but both broke lines

    back off on the drag. :)

  113. 113
    Jay says:


    Sicily, Italy, Germany, France, all medeval societies had case after case of usurper’s taking power.

    For every “knight” it takes hundreds of skilled peasants to keep him fed, armoured, horsed and fortified.

    Vampire Capitalist Peter Thiel isn’t going to dispatch part of his security force to “rescue” a fellow 1%’er from a Maori/Sheepfarmer revolt lead by Peter Jackson. First off, he has no peasants, just stacks of useless cash, bitcoin, gold, ammo and MRE’s.

    Second off, guns. Knights and Men at Arms trained 60 hours a week training how to kill other “warriors”. Guns change that.

    The key to medieval societies came, when Lord’s rights were protected by Laws, from the King, greater Lords, lesser Lords, and those Lords informally extended some of those protections to the peasantry.

    Our Masters of the Universe find that anthema.

    Some ex-military Maori is going to be sitting at Vampire Capitalist Peter Thiel’s table about 2 years after “The Collapse”, with Peter Thiel’s head as the key ornament on his chair, or a goblet on the table.

  114. 114
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @gbbalto: Actually this happened more often than you’d think, especially in the very early days of feudalism.

    But, as Roger Moore noted, the feudal lords in question were themselves warriors, so ambitious underlings always had to ask themselves, “Am I tough (and/or devious) enough?” Most successful coups of this nature took place when the Lord was elderly or after he had died and his heir was young or seen as weak.

  115. 115
    germy says:

    “First they came for the journalists, and I did not speak out – because I was not a journalist. We have no idea what they did after that.”
    – Martha Irvine

  116. 116
    Tenar Arha says:

    @Jay: I’v read SFF all my life practically (one of my first loves when I was a new reader was fairy tales & greek mythology). And everything I know from good disaster SFF is that you need to work together to survive, survival skills don’t generally include amassing large fortunes, & any security you hire will turn on you, perhaps killing but definitely expropriating your food/shelter/refuge, if & when it becomes clear that the world in which you made your fortune is gone, especially if you were always a terrible human. (& If that’s not clear from the writing, I tend to zone out of the story).

    ETA I expect tech bros have bad cases of last man on earth syndrome 😉

  117. 117
    A Ghost To Most says:


    : Some ex-military Maori is going to be sitting at Vampire Capitalist Peter Thiel’s table about 2 years after “The Collapse”, with Peter Thiel’s head as the key ornament on his chair, or a goblet on the table.

    That’s a nice thought.

  118. 118
    Jay says:

    @Sloane Ranger:

    Or, his back was turned.

    There were many cases where it took a dozen to take down the “Lord” in an hours long brawl.

    Gun’s make it all easier.

  119. 119
    Steeplejack says:

    @Felanius Kootea:

    Rose Mallinger’s death was horrific, but she was not a Holocaust survivor. (Snopes)

  120. 120
    Jay says:

    @Tenar Arha:

    Back in the day, when apocalyptic doom infused a Tech Company I was working for, ( one specific end of the World project for the USN),
    I was voted “The Guy Who’s Tribe You Most Want To Join As The World Ends”.

  121. 121
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @J R in WV: The vast majority of evangelical “Christians” do not follow the teachings of Jesus. They are Mammonists and/or Moloch worshipers.

  122. 122
    Jay Noble says:

    They might do better than we think – “Blast From the Past”


  123. 123
    Jay says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton:
    @Sister Golden Bear:

    We are here for you.

    Sister Golden Bear, we will fight for you.

  124. 124
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Well, the xians who aren’t fascists need to stand up and reclaim their religion for what it is supposed to be from the grifters who are using it to subvert democracy.

    Eta: A little more Jesus, a lot less Christ!

  125. 125
    Fair Economist says:

    @Mary G: There was a Republican on another discussion board I used to be who was always arguing the global warming wasn’t real – and bragged that his house was just above the flood level from a total icecap melt. Yeah, conservatives who are active in communication are mostly evil, not deluded.

  126. 126
    Emma says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: Hang in there. Double bump here. Just got off a 5-year oral treatment of letrozole followed by tamoxifen. You will survive this one too — whatever it is. My third scare turned out to be a misreading of the old scar.

  127. 127
    Steeplejack says:


    [Meghan McCain’s] husband is Ben somebody who lost a couple of jobs because of plagiarism.

    Ben Domenech—complete right-wing hack. The plagiarism is just the tip of the iceberg.

    In a 2010 post written for CBS, Domenech wrongly described Supreme Court Justice nominee Elena Kagan as potentially the “first openly gay justice.” He later added an addendum stating, “I have to correct my text here to say that Kagan is apparently still closeteds—odd, because her female partner is rather well known in Harvard circles.” In fact, however, numerous reports confirmed that Kagan was not gay, forcing Domenech to issue a public [non-]apology to Kagan “if she is offended at all by my repetition of a Harvard rumor in a speculative blog post.”

    In 2013, Domenech was involved in a journalism scandal that resulted in the removal of his work from the Washington Examiner and The Huffington Post when it was disclosed that Domenech received $36,000 from Joshua Trevino, a conservative pundit and lobbyist, to write favorable opinion pieces about the government of Malaysia without disclosing the relationship.

    Also the founder of The Federalist website and a co-founder of RedState.

  128. 128
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @Steeplejack: Thanks for the Snopes correction link – the news reports I’d read Saturday said she was.
    I kind of avoided the news completely yesterday.

  129. 129
    Emma says:

    @Jay: Now that last sentence is a thing of beauty.

  130. 130
    Brachiator says:


    Why is she even on the show. Besides being McCain spawn what are her qualifications?

    They wanted a conservative, I guess. And it’s a general interest chat show, no special qualifications required. And that’s not a bad thing, necessarily. I prefer the View to any episode of the deadly boring PBS News Hour.

  131. 131
    Brachiator says:


    There’s no evidence Andrew Gillum is a thief. That’s the first time Trump has called someone a thief on Twitter. Gillum is a Black man.

    Trump is a thief. But he gets called a business Titan because he is a white man.

  132. 132
    Jay says:


    I like the fact that Peter Jackson’s gonna go all “Lord of the Rings” on his ass, sans hobbits.

  133. 133
    Karen says:

    @grandpa john: I thought it was the NT that made the whole thing Christian.

  134. 134
    Elizabelle says:

    Hero of the Hudson: the GOP has lost Chesley Sullenberger.

    WaPost: We saved 155 lives on the Hudson. Now let’s vote for leaders who’ll protect us all.

    linky: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/we-saved-155-lives-on-the-hudson-now-lets-vote-for-leaders-wholl-protect-us-all/2018/10/29/554fd0e6-d87c-11e8-a10f-b51546b10756_story.html?utm_term=.f0b80d5d68e6

    …. I am often told how calm I sounded speaking to passengers, crew and air traffic control during the emergency. In every situation, but especially challenging ones, a leader sets the tone and must create an environment in which all can do their best. You get what you project. Whether it is calm and confidence — or fear, anger and hatred — people will respond in kind. Courage can be contagious.

    Today, tragically, too many people in power are projecting the worst. Many are cowardly, complicit enablers, acting against the interests of the United States, our allies and democracy; encouraging extremists at home and emboldening our adversaries abroad; and threatening the livability of our planet. Many do not respect the offices they hold; they lack — or disregard — a basic knowledge of history, science and leadership; and they act impulsively, worsening a toxic political environment.

    As a result, we are in a struggle for who and what we are as a people. We have lost what in the military we call unit cohesion. The fabric of our nation is under attack, while shame — a timeless beacon of right and wrong — seems dead.

    This is not the America I know and love. We’re better than this. Our ideals, shared facts and common humanity are what bind us together as a nation and a people. Not one of these values is a political issue, but the lack of them is.

    This current absence of civic virtues is not normal, and we must not allow it to become normal. We must rededicate ourselves to the ideals, values and norms that unite us and upon which our democracy depends. We must be engaged and informed voters, and we must get our information from credible, reputable sources.

    For the first 85 percent of my adult life, I was a registered Republican. But I have always voted as an American. And this critical Election Day, I will do so by voting for leaders committed to rebuilding our common values and not pandering to our basest impulses.

    … I feel that I now have yet another mission, as a defender of our democracy.

    We cannot wait for someone to save us. We must do it ourselves. This Election Day is a crucial opportunity to again demonstrate the best in each of us by doing our duty and voting for leaders who are committed to the values that will unite and protect us. Years from now, when our grandchildren learn about this critical time in our nation’s history, they may ask if we got involved, if we made our voices heard. I know what my answer will be. I hope yours will be “yes.”

  135. 135
    Jay says:

    “According to Stein’s attorneys, it would be overly harsh to give him a life sentence because “2016 was ‘lit'” and the election was full of hate driven by the “rhetorical China shop bull who is now our president.” They also argued that Stein’s knowledge of the Qur’an “came directly from the internet and conservative talk-show hosts such as Sean Hannity and Michael Savage,” so he really didn’t know any better. They suggest that an appropriate sentence for his weapons of mass destruction and conspiracy charges would be 15 years.”

    It remains to be seen whether the court will buy this as a valid argument for leniency. But the idea that far-right rhetoric is spurring hatred and violence is hard to ignore.”


  136. 136
  137. 137
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @Elizabelle: I suspect they lost him long before the current president. Sully donated $5000 to Obama’s 2012 campaign while still a registered Republican, and I’m pretty sure he voted for him.

  138. 138
    Ruckus says:

    Was just going to say a very similar thing.
    @The Fat Kate Middleton:
    I’m two yrs out of radiation treatment for my cancer. I posted in another thread that I’d spent most of the day going/coming from the VA. It was to see my oncologist. My news is better but as Doc said again today, remain vigilant, fight hard because that’s what there is. Or as has been said before, don’t let the bastard win. I can not answer any issues other than support but if you need anything, I’ll help if I can. I sat with an amazing group of fellow irradiated vets getting my treatment and it was so much easier because there were many of us going through the same thing. If you need a virtual shoulder for support, tell one of the front pagers and we can get in touch directly.

  139. 139
    Elizabelle says:

    @Felanius Kootea: I did not know that.

    Proud to have him on our side. Welcome, Sully (a bit late, perhaps from me).

  140. 140
    Ruckus says:

    What will stop them is this.

    “How do I maintain authority over my security force after the event?”

    Their only hold is financial. For them everything else is secondary. They want to hold on to an ideal that really has no value, other than what they place upon it. The feudal lords had only real property to protect and that could be shared with his security forces, and was. They got to eat because of them. When all the money doesn’t mean anything, having it all means nothing. It especially means that protecting it will make things worse and taking it won’t. IOW the rich are building a paper castle and they won’t hold up or hold back in a big enough storm.

  141. 141
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Jay: @gbbalto: I think gbbalto is right: small farms will survive. But that’s a long-term thing. Short-term? I read that the pre-Columbian population of North America was 4m. Even if it were 10x that, we’re still looking at a nearly 10x reduction in population. And I think it’s closer to the lower number, b/c all the easily-mined sources of energy are -gone-. We’d be back to purely agriculture + mammalian labor. That’s pretty low-tech. Hence, low carrying capacity. And from here to there, will involve massive bloodshed.

    The living will envy the dead.

  142. 142
    James E Powell says:


    Jennifer Rubin has the. epic take on why Trumpov can’t tone it down – selling hate and spreading division is all he has.

    Well, there’s no shortage of buyers. And the press/media love it because it brings eyes & ears to their products.

    Question. Has Jennifer Rubin ever acknowledged or explained her own role in creating Trump World?

  143. 143
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Chetan Murthy: And it won’t merely be some ex-military thug who knocks Thiel off. It’ll be the craziest sonofabitch. B/c that’s what happened last time around (the middle ages) too. It’ll take a few generations before being the craziest sonofabitch isn’t a good way to take command.

  144. 144
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @James E Powell:

    Question. Has Jennifer Rubin ever acknowledged or explained her own role in creating Trump World?

    Uh, she wants to eat after all this is over, and it’ll be on the right, not the left, where she gets her ticket punched [she’s still a neocon when it comes to foreign policy], so ….. I’m betting *no*.

  145. 145
    Ruckus says:

    @Bill Arnold:
    You can’t and never will change a majority of bigots minds. They are 1000% sure that they and only they know the truth.
    You can change minds, one at a time and slowly, with hard work. Because you have to change their history, their entire viewpoint/perspective. They believe irrational bullshit and you have to remove all the layers of bullshit they have wallowed in their entire lives to affect that change.
    Look at today’s conservatives. Not all of them are raving lunatics, but a lot of them are. And really how can you separate out the raving lunatics from the non raving lunatics? You can’t, they have to separate themselves. They have to want to and they have to decide to. At that point you can possibly convince them, but not before. Think of it like an addict. People get help getting over an addiction. They don’t get over an addiction because you tell them to, because anyone tells them to. They have to decide, they have to want to, it’s the only way it works. I have some friends. They are about 70 yrs old. They now have permeant custody of their daughters 12 and 14 yr old kids. Because their daughter OD a day after getting out of jail for drug offenses. Last time I saw this woman she was 12, and 30 yrs later she left two beautiful, smart kids for drugs. Her parents didn’t drive her there, neither did her 2 brothers. She went of her own accord. And so do the bigots. It’s an addiction, it feeds itself until it consumes the person. They have to want to escape.

  146. 146
    Ruckus says:


    But he gets called a business Titan because he is a white man.

    He got called a business titan because he’s a white man who lied about his wealth and he came from some money. When it became obvious that he’s just a half bit hustler without a truthful bone in his body, and he bankrupted a casino, he became just a guy with some money. He became a 1/4 bit racist hustler when he started running for pres. But apparently nearly half the voters think a 1/4 bit hustler/racist is the ideal president of the country. I believe it’s because they like that he thinks like they do.

  147. 147
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Ha Nguyen: The way you “maintain authority over your security forces” is to require them all to undergo a program of immunizations – & then inform them that one of those inoculations was in fact a fatal virus that cannot be purged from the body & can only be kept in check by regular injections of a specific antiviral agent that only the hedge-fundie has the formula for & a stockpile. Toe the line & hope you don’t piss off the big guy, or die.

    It sounds kinda stupid but IIRC there was a SF novel back in the 50s that used the gimmick – the Commies had conquered the USA & in the process released a plague that required people to show up once a year for an injectioin of the antidote. Great method to control the population – until the protagonist stumbles onto the fact that the inoculations don’t prevent anything, they are in fact the plague itself…

    (If anyone remembers that book , please to pass the title along.)

  148. 148
    dopey-o says:

    @Roger Moore: there were no Christians during Christ’s lifetime. They considered themselves to be Jews. And what the UM ministers did today is not so different from Christ driving the money-changers out of the Temple, is it?

  149. 149
    Jay says:

    @Chetan Murthy:

    Some estimates hold that the population of BC alone was 8-10 million, at “point of contact”, and that was already after 2-3 epedemics had already followed the trade routes into BC.

    Vancouver, roughly a 100 years later, the second contact, noted a population of about 1 million, with thousands of empty villages.

    I walk around my property and everywhere I go, I see food.

    When we first moved up here, and times were tough, we ate caana root, pine pollen fry bread, bullrush root.

    My ranch/farm feeds 2400 people, with almost no machinery.

    Supowelli jam was a no go, for two years until foodies found it, and the health nuts found out it was a massive source of vitamin C and D.

    The Sewptewimuck peoples have eaten it for at least 15,000 years.

  150. 150
    The Fat Kate Middleton says:

    To all of you who responded to my post here: each of you managed to say exactly the right thing – the thing I needed most, and didn’t even know it. This is truly a special group here. And Sister Golden Bear – even though I have not replied to you earlier, please know that I think of you often with such love and hope. I have shared your story with my beautiful nieces, one gay and the other gender fluid, and they’ve thanked me for it. And Ruckus, I am going to take you up on your offer,

  151. 151
    Amir Khalid says:

    She’s been punditing since she began blogging about her dad’s presidential campaign in 2007. As a self-proclaimed “liberal Republican” (i.e. left of the party line on social issues) she is no doubt in demand, at least among those who run mainstream news organisations and can recognise the surname.

  152. 152
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @The Fat Kate Middleton: Please send me a test message so I can send you Ruckus’s email address.

  153. 153
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Sister Golden Bear: You’re welcome. And the next post is for you!

  154. 154
    Jay says:

    God, I love the jackals,

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