Friday Morning Open Thread: Let Them Call It A Win, If It Stops the Argument…

Look, any Bernie supporters want to declare victory and get out, I am more than willing to give ’em a big hand on their way. Even better, should the more realistic ones choose to actually become Democrats, I’ll give ’em a second chance to show that they’re willing to do the hard work of winning voters, not just stanning a celebrity. From Politico (so: whole shaker of salt), “Bernie 2016 alums wary of 2020 sequel”:

With the Vermont senator kicking off a nine-state tour on Friday with stops in Iowa, South Carolina, Nevada and California, a sizable contingent of the people who helped build his insurgent 2016 campaign is ambivalent about a second run, according to interviews with more than a dozen former staffers. Many of them are looking for a different progressive champion to finish what Sanders started.

Sanders should just declare victory, they said, content in the knowledge that much of his 2016 platform has been adopted by other ambitious Democrats considering White House bids. Plus, he’s a white man who would turn 80 in his first year as president, who’d be trying to lead a diverse party fueled by the energy of young voters, women and people of color.

“I think that if a younger candidate can pick up the mantle and have Bernie’s support, I think that would be a better option for 2020. I feel like 60 to 70 percent of former staffers are looking around for another Bernie-esque candidate this time around, even if it’s not him,” said Daniel Deriso, a field organizer for Sanders’ 2016 campaign who went on to help run a successful insurgent mayoral campaign in Birmingham, Ala., last year. “But if Bernie called me to have me work on the campaign then I’d do it.”…

Enough fervent supporters — from the 2016 campaign’s top officials to field organizers — are wary of a 2020 run that it could be difficult to reignite the 2016 movement. Jeff Weaver, who managed the 2016 race, has been talking about the idea of a “Draft Bernie PAC” of sorts after the midterms. But many supporters have been noncommittal, according to two people with knowledge of the discussions…

A common frustration among former staffers is that they feel Sanders and his tight circle of aides have taken their support for granted and failed to keep their 2016 team cohesive, which would have been an inherent advantage in a second run.

Multiple former staffers said that the Clinton campaign alumni network is far more connected and active than Sanders’…

“He’s the grandpa of the movement,” said another campaign worker from 2016, “but that might not make him the best choice for 2020.”

So… People who want an actual career working in politics have accepted their loss and are calculating their next moves. Tad Devine is lying low, waiting for Robert Mueller to wrap up his various investigations. Jeff Weaver wants to get the band back together — but being the Media Village Idiot’s “More Virtuous Than Thou” Gadfly is pretty much a one-man enterprise. Just look at the latest performance reviews for its most famous modern exemplar:

(If Nader is hoping / expecting Bloomberg to throw him a bone, or a paid consultancy, he must really be desperate. Mayor Mike has been content to let the Horserace Pundits do his testing-the-candidacy-waters media for free, all these years; I seriously doubt pity, or excitement at Nader’s celebrity, will loosen his pursestrings at this point.)

205 replies
  1. 1
    PsiFighter37 says:

    Fuck both of them – both are resposible for kneecapping Democrats in important electoral years.

    As for me, I am up because my goddamn fire alarm decided that 4:45 AM is a GOOD FUCKING TIME to start chirping about ‘low battery’, and I can’t turn it off.

  2. 2
    Anne Laurie says:

    @PsiFighter37: We always end up taking out the batteries to make it stop. Once it does, it’s safe to put in the new ones.

  3. 3
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    A common frustration among former staffers is that they feel Sanders and his tight circle of aides have taken their support for granted and failed to keep their 2016 team cohesive, which would have been an inherent advantage in a second run.

    Multiple former staffers said that the Clinton campaign alumni network is far more connected and active than Sanders’…

    So… A one man party is incapable of creating anything more than a one man party, while his “steeped in the corrupt Democratic Party” opponent is able to keep a diverse group of people together and pulling in the same direction. Who’da thunk it?

    “He’s the cranky grandpa of the movement,” said another campaign worker from 2016, “but that might not make him the best choice for 2020.”

    FTFY, you’ll get my bill in the mail.

  4. 4
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: How’s the wing?

  5. 5
    Lapassionara says:

    Yesterday I saw the effing NYTimes had devoted a large space on its editorial page to telling HRC to shut up. Seriously? If it wants to waste its editorial space telling politicians to be quiet, I can think of a few who could really use that advice, including the “grandpa of the movement.”

  6. 6
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    136 years after construction began, the Sagrada Familia finally gets a building permit. This is no way to run a city.

    I worked on an ADA upgrade of a fast food restaurant where the home office insisted we do it without a permit. (their guy was an officious ass) On a major thoroughfare. With a 20 yard dumpster parked in front of it. With electrician, plumber, and HVAC vans alongside it. And the GC’s tool trailer.

    The Stop Work Order was issued about 10 am on the first day by one very pissed off electrical inspector and even tho it meant a week long layoff for us carpenters, we were all smiling as the asshole got it shoved down his throat.

  7. 7
    Chris Johnson says:

    This. Sanders should ONLY run if Clinton tries to run for a third time, because accelerationism and highlighting the contradictions.

    Which is to say, hell no. Warren’s looking good: the right trolls are cranking up to fight her. She’s kind of old but Bernie’s WAY too old. And in 2018 he does not have the sole voice of sanity against the evils of oligarchy. Plus he’s an old white male and even as one of those, I’m so done with those.

    I would only vote for him in a primary this time around, if he was running against only Biden or Clinton or both. They all need to step aside.

  8. 8
    Schlemazel says:

    The damn things know! Mine have done this at 2 AM every time they decide one of them needs a new battery. They are all connected so if one needs a battery they all chirp & then they complain for a while after their batteries are changed.

    I blame HRC (sticking with the theme of the thread!)

  9. 9
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Chris Johnson: Clinton’s made it clear she’s not running again. Biden’s making some feints, but IMO that’s more out of habit than conviction; once the midterms are over and the many new possible-candidates gear up, I expect he’ll slide into the role of Wise Old Party Elder with real vim.

  10. 10
    Schlemazel says:

    We had a remodel done to our house ~15 years ago & a subcontractor set fire to the house on the first day while cutting out radiators. We found out after the the first thing the GC did when he got the call about the fire was run to city hall and pull a permit.

  11. 11
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @raven: It hurts. One day to the next it’s hard to say it’s getting better but it is better than it was 2 days after the surgery. Pretty sure the Doc’s gonna order PT when next I see him in 2 weeks because it’s doing a lot of snap, crackle, and popping. I shouldn’t be surprised, I’ve been dealing with this for almost 8 years and 8 years of favoring it is bound to get the muscles out of whack. At least that is what I’m hoping the problem is.

  12. 12
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Lapassionara: I think the same editorial ran in the Guardian yesterday. No, I didn’t bother reading it.

    @Schlemazel: I don’t know why people try to pull that shit. Proper planning and running of a good job site makes inspections as easy as 1-2-3 and the permits don’t cost a nickel compared to all the other expenses of a job. But a pissed off inspector? They’ll cost you an arm and a leg every time.

  13. 13
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yea and you’ll have to break that scar tissue too but it should progress over time.

  14. 14
    Chris Johnson says:

    @Anne Laurie: Then there’s no problem, is there? Biden does not fit into a #MeToo world, we’re not going to talk about Clinton unless absolutely necessary because No Good Will Come Of That, and again, I am seriously done with old white millionaires.

    And I do intend to keep the guy a Senator (I’m a Vermonter lefty, what am I going to do, vote for a ratfucker?) but I think his whole sketchiness around taxes is because he’s a millionaire like mostly every other Senator (literally?) and it was off-brand. Fine, incremental steps, hypocrisy aside Sanders was one of the first places I heard a full-throated anti-oligarch, anti-billionaire message. I can’t speak for everyone but I think I do speak for a lot when I say it was always about that message, and subsequent events have only underscored its importance.

    But the guy’s eclipsed by events and was always too old and simply does not represent what the Left is capable of in 2018, and he has the Clinton problem every bit as bad as Clinton does/did: by now, no fucking way can he be in a Presidential primary. Just no. Russian trolls have been convincing people that he’s solely responsible for the Dem loss to Trump for several YEARS now (or was a full-on Manchurian Candidate) and you can’t untangle that, and even if they hadn’t exploited that divide very effectively, he made too many enemies. No no a thousand times no, by now he ranks with the most contentious figures that have ever contended for a Democratic presidential run.

    No never nope not a chance no. Please please bring us a younger and female candidate because it’s time, and please let’s leave Sanders as a way-station, outmoded and no longer anything remotely like the vanguard for the Left that he once appeared to be.

    He can be a reliable Senate vote for socialist policy, because we’re going to need loads of that or we’re all going to literally die. The Republicans have too thoroughly wrecked any hope of salvaging the basically right-wing course of mainstream American policy. From climate to economics to identity, we have to backlash brutally against what America is becoming, or we and the world with us, are going to burn.

    That means somebody actually good for President, and the blue wave. And that’s not Sanders and will never, ever be.

  15. 15
    Schlemazel says:

    The odd part to me was I knew the GC, our sons had been scouts together & he was fastidious & did things the right way. Then that happened. Apparently he was different in his work life than his personal one!

    I didn’t get the impression the inspector was PO’ed but I would expect him to be. That whole thing was an odd deal too, he looked through the wreckage & made some demands that really helped us out but let other stuff go despite my asking him to reconsider. Then there was the recovery contractor the insurance company hired – OY! Took them over 4 months & that included many days and at least one whole week were literally no work was done.

    Take the PT – I think you will find it helps more than you are imagining. Good luck!

  16. 16
    Chyron HR says:

    Sanders should just declare victory, they said, content in the knowledge that much of his 2016 platform has been adopted by other ambitious Democrats considering White House bids.

    It was adopted by the ambitious Democrat who was actually running in 2016, and you skidmarks claimed that it didn’t count.

  17. 17
    Baud says:

    The best thing for this country would be for young progressives to realize that bitter old, white progressives have been part of the problem.

    Also, too, thread needs more Michael Moore to round out the analysis.

  18. 18
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Schlemazel: It’s possible he was going to pull one that day anyway. I have worked for several GC’s who didn’t wait for a permit to be issued before beginning demolition and many building departments won’t penalize for that (on residential, commercial? No.F’n,Way.)

    Then there was the recovery contractor the insurance company hired

    Insurance companies ALWAYS take the lowest bid, then they ALWAYS pressure the guy to go even lower and make him cut every possible corner.

    Take the PT – I think you will find it helps more than you are imagining.

    I’ve been thru physical therapy many times for many reasons. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it doesn’t. (once did PT for 3-4 months of agonizing pain, finally the Doc sent me for an arthrogram. radiologist did a preliminary x-ray, comes to me and says, “Well, I don’t know what the arthrogram is going to show, but your wrist is broken.”) Sometimes it only works up to a point (6 years ago I did a stint of PT on this shoulder, it got better and then it hit a wall and we were wasting time and money)

    I worked with a laborer for years and he tore his shoulder up on the job. He went thru a nightmare because of company and insurance moves but they finally did do surgery on a torn rotator cuff and torn bicep tendon. First day of PT the therapist tore the tendon again. Vince is not a laborer anymore. Can’t lift his arm above his shoulder.

    I’ll do the PT, no problem. But I know all too well they’re no miracle workers.

  19. 19
    Baud says:

    @Anne Laurie: I don’t want Biden to win, but I kind of hope he runs just because I think he can take some of the air of out Bernie’s sails.

  20. 20
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  22. 22
    geg6 says:

    Where do these people live? I stupidly put on the Joe and Mika morning fun show and the two of them are frothing at the mouth at what they call Dem complacency, no national message and only one superstar this cycle who is going to lose. Said it’s killing enthusiasm and no one wants to go out and vote for all of these meek and whiny Dems who can’t get the base angry enough and who are just rolling over in the face of Trump’s strong message about caravans and jobs. Do they ever step out of their fucking bubble? Personally, I thought I knew what Dem enthusiasm looked like in 2008. The energy I’m seeing now is at least double. And this time, instead of happy energy, it’s an angry and determined energy in the base and a bunch of candidates speaking to people’s real life concerns. Arrrrrgh! This shit drives me nuts. Time for local news.

  23. 23
    Baud says:

    @geg6: I’m not all that enthused. But I don’t need to be because I always vote regardless of how excited I am about it.

  24. 24
    Schlemazel says:

    He personally had been working on the house before the fire, replaced every window. It was the first day for anyone else though. But you may have a point, I didn’t know that about permits.

    2 stories from the recovery:
    The manager for the team took a week off to go on a cruise. no worker showed up even for a minute that entire week.
    One day the electrician showed up about 10:30. He set up all his stuff then said he was going to lunch. He came back around 2:00, packed up his crap & left.

  25. 25
    germy says:

    Tad Devine is lying low, waiting for Robert Mueller to wrap up his various investigations.

    Has Tad ever worked for a winning candidate? Or is it his job to make sure they lose?

    I remember during the 2016 campaign, Jane Sanders expressed impatience with the FBI’s investigation into Hillary Clinton. She suggested she was hoping Hillary would be locked up soon.

    So, in that spirit, I’m wondering here how the investigation into Jane (and Bernie’s) finances are going. Any hopes for a conviction?

  26. 26
    germy says:


    Time for local news.

    Local News: Our motto: “If it bleeds, it leads.”

  27. 27
    Baud says:

    @Lapassionara: That calls for a The NYT is garbage.

    @OzarkHillbilly: The Guardian is garbage too.

  28. 28
    Lapassionara says:

    @Chris Johnson: I like Jason Kander a lot, and I wish he had beaten Blunt. He was running for mayor of KC, but dropped out to get treatment for depression. So I don’t know what the future holds for him. I also like what I have seen of Beto, but who knows what the future holds for him.

    I think a Dem has to win the presidency next time, and I hate to say it, but I don’t think the electorate is over its misogyny, so I think we have to go male and pale this time. And young, meaning not yet 70 or close to it.

  29. 29
    Schlemazel says:

    heard a thing that made me smile so I thought I would share
    Canada has made a few changes since Wednesday
    They have replaced the Canadian Mounties with the Canadian Munchies
    They renamed the national anthem “Oh Cannabis” and the Capital city is now ‘Potowa”

  30. 30
    Immanentize says:

    Morning, All.

    I will voice a nagging worry. Already people are saying that the next Dem candidate must be a woman! That might be nice. It might not. But this is the kind of set up that leads to bitter acrimony and failure.

    For me, the next Presidential candidate on the Dem side must be the one who wins the primaries and gets the nomination of the party.

    @OzarkHillbilly: Take it carefully, Ozark, that is one high-end, expensive and finely tuned shoulder you own. Break her in easy.

  31. 31
    Baud says:

    @Lapassionara: I hope I don’t let it affect my primary vote, but I have the same concern. 2016 made me skittish about the strength of the Dem party.

  32. 32
    germy says:

    Mocking Biden for saying he wants to fight Trump, Trump again alludes to Gianforte's assault on Jacobs: "He'd be down faster than Greg would take him down. He'd be down so fast. Remember?…Faster than Greg. I'd have to go very fast. I'd have to immediately connect."
    — Daniel Dale (@ddale8) October 19, 2018

  33. 33
    Baud says:

    BTW, for all the people who are already wishing for a Beto 2020 run, he strikes me as someone who would adopt Obama’s stance of look forward, not back. Do you disagree, and if not, does it matter to you?

  34. 34
    JPL says:

    @Anne Laurie: IMO Joe is trying to stay relevant in order to finally cash in.

  35. 35
    germy says:

    Ocasio-Cortez isn’t endorsing Bernie Sanders’ 2020 bid— New York Post (@nypost) October 19, 2018

  36. 36
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    One day the electrician showed up about 10:30. He set up all his stuff then said he was going to lunch. He came back around 2:00, packed up his crap & left.

    shakes head…. Over the years I worked with some guys like that. I don’t get it, never did. When I showed up for work, I was there to work. And at the end of the day I could always look back and say, “Yeah, I did that.”

  37. 37
    Baud says:

    @germy: Smartest thing I’ve seen her do since the primary. The headline is misleading, though. She’s simply saying she’ll wait and see.

  38. 38
    debbie says:

    Broke a toe on my left foot yesterday morning. Along with my frozen right arm, I’m a real fucking mess. If I may: Blech squared.

  39. 39
    Baud says:

    @debbie: Ouch. Feel better soon.

  40. 40
    germy says:

    This painting is similar to the one hanging in the white house, but it’s hanging in his mind instead:

    Trump’s idea of hell 😂— Vote Blue November 6💪🌸 (@Brasilmagic) October 18, 2018

  41. 41
    JPL says:

    @germy: Trump’s an uncivilized jerk.

  42. 42
    Baud says:

    @germy: That’s awesome.

  43. 43
    debbie says:


    What do you mean by looking back? Focusing on impeachment?

  44. 44
    Steeplejack (phone) says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    “Vim”? Vim, you say? There’d better be some vigor to go along with that!

  45. 45
    debbie says:


    If I were speaking to my Trumpie brothers, that’d be my Christmas gift to each of them!

  46. 46
    Schlemazel says:

    When people say “must be young, female / POC” I always want to say “please name 3-4 so I can evaluate their positions and experience” These are unicorns until real people are identified.

  47. 47
    germy says:

    @Baud: And the woman standing in the background of the painting… Elizabeth Warren.

  48. 48
    Schlemazel says:

    Those things always seem to come in groups.
    Hopw you overcome soon

  49. 49
    germy says:

    @debbie: It’d make a nice stocking stuffer.

  50. 50
    Baud says:


    There’s a lot of talk here and on the tubes about what we do if we control the government after 2020, and a lot of people understandably and legitimately want the Dems to enforce the law against Trump and the GOP, which is something Obama didn’t do with Bush. I don’t see Beto doing that if he’s elected president. Like Obama, he seems like someone who wants to try reconciliation rather than enforcement.

  51. 51
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: Chances are, any DEM who gets nominated is going to do the same. But they will be only one player in the game. The hard part is going to be the picking and choosing of which sin to litigate. That battle could tear everything apart.

  52. 52
    Lapassionara says:

    @Baud: It will affect my primary vote. From my perspective, we are receding into the dark ages as a country. The chances of us turning this trend around are limited and every chance to make a turn toward a better future has to come out in the correct way for my grandchildren to have a brighter future than the one I foresee for them as things are now.

  53. 53
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: Blechs are for those who need them. Sorry about the toe, that sucks. Very painful, not much they can do.

  54. 54
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, I agree that it’ll be hard on any Dem to really do what we all here would like in that regard. And maybe Beto becomes a different person if he’s playing to a national audience rather than Texans. In any event, the fact is that there WILL be injustices that go unpunished. That’s inherent in letting these people wield power in the first place.

  55. 55
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @JPL: trump’s a wannabe tough guy who never had to fight for a damn thing in his entire life. He always paid somebody else to do it for him. “My lawyer is gonna beat you up.” is not what tough guys say.

  56. 56
    debbie says:


    I can understand the wanting that, but I think the focus needs to be on undoing the damage that’s been done. I honestly don’t see the point of impeachment. It would be quicker just to vote him out and move on. The next two years should be about stopping all of Trump’s policies. That alone should make his head explode!

  57. 57

    Sympathy to all ailing jackals. We seem to have an unusual number of them right now.

    I walked past a TV playing Fox yesterday and the chyron was about Warren’s DNA. What a weird world.

  58. 58
    debbie says:


    Thanks, but you both are going through worse. I wish speedy recoveries for us all!

  59. 59
    Baud says:

    @Lapassionara: I hear you. But aside from Beto, most of the white male candidates aren’t as interesting as the other candidates we talk about. And I really don’t know where we’ll be in 2020 in terms of the balance between women vs. the misogynists. Let’s not diminish the enormous world-wide 30-year effort it took to prevent Hillary from being elected, and that’s before our people were “woke.”

  60. 60
    Baud says:

    @debbie: That’s fair. But people still debate Obama’s choice, so whatever the Dems do this time will be controversial within our party.

  61. 61
    germy says:


    The next two years should be about stopping all of Trump’s policies. That alone should make his head explode!

    That, and his name being removed from buildings. That’s already happening, and it must drive him nuts.

  62. 62
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Baud: I’m not sure if this means enforcement, but from last night:

    Beto O’Rourke says Trump’s performance in Helsinki was “collusion in action” and his firing of Comey was “obstruction in action.” He says “there is enough there” to impeach Trump and hold a trial in the Senate. But says he doesn’t want to “prejudge” the Senate trial.

    He’s going a lot farther than anyone else has, but that statement not withstanding, I can’t think of anyone who would go the enforcement route because it would suck up all the media oxygen during the crucial first year window to pass legislation.

  63. 63
    Baud says:

    @germy: From what I understand, he’s losing more money than he’s earning through the grift and the graft. That’s a good thing.

  64. 64
  65. 65
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    the fact is that there WILL be injustices that go unpunished.

    Yeah, somebodies’ sacred oxen will have been gored and they will want revenge. When they don’t get it, we will enter perilous territory.

    While I feel some should most definitely have bars in their future, I think I am willing to settle for thorough and open investigations and legislating into law some/most/all of these norms that have been getting violated willynilly by the GOP.

  66. 66
    satby says:

    Good morning crew! Sympathies to all our achy morning crew today getting over illness or injury.

    In my most optimistic political fantasies I imagine that the Toddler in Chief, if faced with a hostile Congress, just stomps off in a huff and resigns. He’s a quitter.

  67. 67
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: I don’t know about that. Depending on how bad you broke your toe it could be far worse than my hopefully now slowly healing shoulder. Especially if it’s the big toe.

  68. 68
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @germy: Anybody know what the center standing Obama has his nose buried in?

  69. 69
  70. 70
    Betty Cracker says:

    @geg6: On the rare occasions I’m tempted to tune in to the Joe and Mika show, I ask myself why would I want to listen to an aging Republican frat douche talk over his girlfriend about politics? And then I find something else to watch. If I want to hear an arrogant shit-stain pontificate and shush his long-suffering paramour, I’ll go to Denny’s and eavesdrop on the next table. At least I won’t have to cook my own breakfast then.

  71. 71
    rikyrah says:

    The next Democratic Party Presidential nominee has to be a Democrat.
    And, no, I am not interested any muthaphucka 😠 who has talked smack about Nancy Smash.
    It can be a woman, if a woman is nominated. I will admit openly that I underestimated the misogyny of those in the MSM who were shaping coverage.

    Will not make the same mistake twice. They will not be given the benefit of the doubt. We must be ready to challenge them on their bullshyt.

  72. 72
    Kay says:

    Balls and strikes, just calling balls and strikes:

    The closed-door “training academy” was aimed at a select group: recent law school graduates who had secured prestigious clerkships with federal judges. It was organized by the Heritage Foundation, a conservative group that has played a leading role in moving the courts to the right, and it had some unusual requirements.
    “Generous donors,” the application materials said, were making “a significant financial investment in each and every attendee.” In exchange, the future law clerks would be required to promise to keep the program’s teaching materials secret and pledge not to use what they learned “for any purpose contrary to the mission or interest of the Heritage Foundation.”

    The worst part is, the law clerks all agreed to these terms! Sure- I’ll enter into a secret pact to serve the Heritage Foundation rather than the public- the public who actually pay my salary- sign me up! They sold out so cheap. They get some gross networking opportunity and free continuing legal education? For that they’re giving pledges to wealthy donors?

    America’s most expensive high schools and colleges might want to consider adding some ethics sections. Their graduates seem to be mindless drones who will agree to anything as long as it advances their careers.

  73. 73
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Kay: Same as it ever was Kay.

  74. 74
    Baud says:


    America’s most expensive high schools and colleges might want to consider adding some ethics sections.

    Maybe the Heritage Foundation can sponsor some.

  75. 75
    Kay says:


    Rebutting Trump is a waste of time. His lies get MUCH more coverage than any individual Democrat’s “rebuttal”. They’ve been running on health care and how the Trump tax law sucks, and they;ve succeeded on both of those.

    This is really difficult, adjusting to the fact-free environment where there’s no consequences for lying constantly. Everyone is adjusting- the public, the Democrats, everyone. The old approaches won’t work. Because it’s spreading- all the GOP candidates lie constantly now. But the opposition will figure it out. They’ll come up with a way to get past or around Trump and media. They have no choice.

    So Warren is trying direct confrontation and Beto is trying sweetness and light and Bernie Sanders is trying to co-opt Trump voters (that’s a loser and regrettable) but they’ll try and try because they’re hugely competitive people. And they’ll get it.

  76. 76
    Ken says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:

    I can’t think of anyone who would go the enforcement route because it would suck up all the media oxygen during the crucial first year window to pass legislation.

    It sort of depends on any Supreme Court rulings on the powers of the President. If those go the right way, a President Dexter Morgan could cut a huge swathe through the indicted and unindicted co-conspirators, pardon himself and anyone who assisted, and move on to governing.

    (By “right way” I mean the way that a fool with no understanding of history might rule.)

  77. 77
    A Ghost To Most says:

    Facts don’t matter to fascists. When they go low, we need to kick them in the swastika.

  78. 78
    waratah says:

    @Baud: Beto answered this last night and he is for impeachment hearings. He thinks there is enough evidence that is out there now, but wants to wait for Mueller to finish his investigation. He also promised Texas he would not run for president if they elected senator. Not for six years anyhow. This is really hard for me because I think Texas needs him here to clean up the mess Republicans have made but I also think he will be a winning candidate for the presidency.

  79. 79
    Kay says:


    I wonder if I should enter into a secret pact with this lobbying group while acting as a clerk to a federal judge? Hmmm. Decisions, decisions. They’re just rudderless, apparently. I guess it wouldn’t occur to them to actually think for themselves and, I don’t know, decline. It’s no longer “what should I do?” It’s “what can I possibly get away with?”

    What will have to happen is they’ll have to be regulated tighter and tighter because they don’t self-police but it won’t work, because all regulation is premised on the idea that most people have some sort of internal guardrails. Nope! We’ll need a 300 page code and a police force for them!

  80. 80
    Matt says:

    Who is the candidate who is going to energize young people, besides Bernie…that is my question for you? I’ve seen Booker and Kamala Harris being mentioned, but I know few people who are energized behind them…especially Booker, he’s kinda petered out in people’s interest. If Bernie runs, it will be a good thing, for one thing, his message will continue to resonate, which has given many democrats the drive to fight for issues people care about, that are resonating in the midwest and south. Two, he will bring young voters into the primary again. I’m not sure any other Democrats have the cache with young voters as Bernie does right now. I do agree that doesn’t mean he will go anywhere, and while I hesitate to believe in Elizabeth Warren, I do think she’s a bridge between the two wings of the Democratic Party, the old Democrats, and the younger Democratic Socialists.

  81. 81
    Baud says:

    @waratah: Winning now is always better than the possibility of winning later.

    @Kay: I don’t know, why do judges get to do it but not law clerks.

  82. 82
    Baud says:

    @Matt: His energizing young people didn’t do us much good in 2016, and probably actually hurt us. Doesn’t really matter because he’s definitely running so we’ll have to deal with him no matter how we might feel about it.

  83. 83
    Kay says:

    @A Ghost To Most:

    I’m not convinced. Trump saturates the media. I’m not sure a candidates time is best spent responding to him. The Trump tax law- that was a success for Democrats. Most people think it sucks, which is good because it does. They didn’t get there arguing with Donald Trump. They got there attacking the tax law. There’s two pieces to this. There’s Trump lies and then there’s Trump policy. They;ve had the most success attacking Trump policy, because his policies are bad and unpopular.

    You can skip the Trump rebuttal (he LIED!) and just go to the low quality Trump output.

  84. 84
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: Young people energize young people. Look at the Parkland kids. And the young people of color fighting for justice in Black Lives Matter and other groups. The idea of a wasted Johnny One-Note leading youth to the polls in 2020 is laughable. I expect Bernie will get quickly stomped in two years. Primarily because no (legal) money will be going in his direction.

  85. 85
    Immanentize says:

    @Kay: As you often say, “Low quality people lead to low quality output.”

  86. 86
    Baud says:

    @Immanentize: I actually have no idea. I feel completely disconnected from what drives other voters.

  87. 87
    danielx says:


    Getting some siding replaced at the moment and was pleasantly surprised by the crew, who worked their asses off for nine hours. More or pleased with the quality of the work, even. They were pleasantly surprised that I had front and back primed the T1-11 they were installing before they started yesterday.

  88. 88
    Kay says:


    We dropped a couple of rungs on ethics when Kavanaugh wasn’t held accountable for lying. The lies before the allegation were enough. I work in ordinary county courts and municipal courts. We have some bad judges- some are stupid or biased or lazy. But they don’t lie constantly, because to a large extent the system operates on trust. That’s a bright line. Erased, now. They will reap the whirlwind alright. The lying is bad. It does damage. We won’t get out of this without paying for it.

  89. 89
    Immanentize says:


    what drives other voters.

    Well, anger is an energy.
    It seems to be one of the primary motivators? Hate? Tribalism? Fear? Disgust?

    Happy and content people don’t vote except out of habit.

  90. 90
    Immanentize says:

    @Kay: And by “we” as you know from your work, that probably means those already hurt — poor folks, the less educated, minorities, people in rural America vulnerable to environmental poisonings, etc.

    It will be like the 30’s again unless we can turn some of the lights back on.

  91. 91

    @Kay: I wish it was just they who would reap the whirlwind. I’m afraid it’s all of us.

  92. 92
    zhena gogolia says:


    That made me so furious. I wanted to see how the commenters reacted, but I refused to give it a click (I saw it in my print paper).

  93. 93
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    On the rare occasions I’m tempted to tune in to the Joe and Mika show, I ask myself why would I want to listen to an aging Republican frat douche talk over his girlfriend about politics?

    Ha, ha, hit the nail on the head!

  94. 94
    MomSense says:

    Fuck Wilmer. He admitted he knew during the campaign that Russia was interfering on his behalf. Why didn’t he sound the alarm? Why didn’t he do something about it? Why didn’t he drop out when he had no mathematical pathway to securing enough delegates to win the nomination?
    We need to bring back shunning.

  95. 95
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    So the Democrats aren’t up to Nader’s exacting standards, and he’s not going to take those excuses you call facts, how old white male of him.

  96. 96
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Immanentize: The bad behavior of the richest: what I learned from wealth managers

    When the wealthy are revealed to be drug addicts, philanderers, or work-shy, the response is – at most – a frisson of tabloid-level curiosity, followed by a collective shrug.

    Behaviors indulged in the rich are not just condemned in the poor, but used as a justification to punish them, denying them access to resources that keep them alive, such as healthcare and food assistance. Discussion of poverty has become almost impossible without moral outrage directed at lazy “welfare queens”, “crackheads” and other drug addicts, and the “promiscuous poor” (a phrase that has cropped up again and again in discussions of public benefits over more than a century).

  97. 97
    germy says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Good question. Something to do with the Affordable Care Act?

  98. 98
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Nader has been reading his vintage 1970s press clippings again.

  99. 99
    Kay says:


    Here’s how I’m looking at it. “Character” is off the table. Something like 65% of people polled say Trump is dishonest. Republicans are essentially stipulating to that- he’s dishonest, they back him anyway. We got all we can get out of “liar!” Most people know he’s a liar. Done.
    Now it’s time to focus exclusively on what he lies about, because he lies for a reason- he lies because the truth is bad for him.
    So skip the “Trump lied about X, Y, Z” and just start with “X, Y, Z’. That worked with the tax law and it worked with health care.

  100. 100
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @germy: The insignia is very similar to the Delta Airlines logo but I can’t imagine what they would be saying with that.

    ETA in fact, the more I look at it, the more I think that’s what it is.

  101. 101
    columbusqueen says:

    @MomSense: Because Russia was paying Wilmer to keep his mouth shut?

  102. 102
    Matt McIrvin says:

    The weird thing about Nader is that it’s not even “horseshoe theory” in action, where the extreme left resembles and approaches the extreme right. Nader’s instincts are actually Third Way centrist-plutocratic. It’s on full display here, but he showed signs of it in that book he wrote a while back about how the world’s billionaires should band together and save the rest of us idiots. It’s an odd position for a guy who first became prominent as an anti-corporate crusader, but maybe has something to do with his basic position being pro-consumer rather than pro-worker.

  103. 103
    Kay says:


    I just don’t think he’s a very good advocate. He’s mumbly and he’s constantly ceding points to Donald Trump, almost apologetically.

    I personally will never get over what I saw as real cowardice during the debates. I saw that and I can’t unsee it. If you’re going to call someone a corrupt liar at least stand by it when you’re debating them. I think they would have been horribly disappointed if he had won. He’s weak. He crumbles when he’s face to face.

  104. 104
    A Ghost To Most says:

    Exactly. Don’t mud wrestle with them. Call them fascists, and point out why. Bullies need to be Scut Farkus’ed. As someone who was relentlessly bullied until I grew15 inches in a year, I have one response for bullies now: head down and accelerating.

  105. 105
    Chris Johnson says:

    @geg6: That’s really weird. That’s the russian troll message for online leftists. What are Joe and Mika doing spouting THAT russian troll message?

  106. 106
    Chris Johnson says:

    @Matt: I don’t know who you’re hangin’ out with but what I’m seeing is that Bernie’s falling behind. He won’t talk about abolishing ICE, for instance. There are younger, bolder leftists and the same thing that made Bernie a hit in 2015 is now holding him back: same old Bernie. Not all his opinions jibe with the 2018 left and he’s stuck on them.

  107. 107
    tobie says:

    @Immanentize: Elie Mystal and others were saying over the weekend that the party should go full-steam ahead in crafting a platform and organizing GOTV efforts that addressed the needs of its core constituency: POC. The moderator on the show (I don’t remember which one) said that would mean not trying to win over the white working class. The entire group agreed. It was an interesting panel, composed of people who were no friends of Clinton and complain about “neoliberalism.” Yet at the end of the day they were back to endorsing her campaign strategy.

  108. 108
    Tim C. says:

    To add: in 2021, my wife and I intend to take the kids to Disney World to celebrate our 20th wedding anniversary. I fully intend to openly weep at seeing Kamala Harris in the Hall of Presidents.

    Edit: By that I mean manly tears of pride and re-birthed hope.

  109. 109
  110. 110
    Kay says:


    I read Bad Blood, about Theranos (very good book) and what that book is about is “lying”. How dishonesty pervades an organization and takes root and poisons everything. It’s fascinating to watch people sort themselves into two groups- the ethical people leave and the people who are not ethical stay and it’s a straight downward line- you could graph it. One of the developers quits and he writes the CEO an email that begins with “lying is a disgusting habit…” A lot of the people who leave are really talented so it’s easy to say “well, they COULD leave” but even that’s not true. One of the female engineers takes a giant financial hit just to get out of there. She has to GO. She is incapable of going along with this.

    The thing is it’s inevitable. It WILL collapse. And the Trump Administration will collapse too. It’s like gravity. The institution he heads will be polluted and it will become so low quality it will fall. It can’t be other than what it is. If they stack federal courts with dishonest people, the courts won’t just operate on a separate ethical track forever. They will BE what they’re composed of.

    It was never “the institution”. It can’t transcend what it’s made up of. It was always the people in it.

  111. 111
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Chris Johnson: Joe and Mika are basically Republicans. They may claim they’re not, but they’ve marinated for all their careers in right-wing propaganda about what the Democrats are like and what’s going on. Now they want Democrats to save them for some reason, but they’ve still got these ideas derived from Republican pablum. It’s as simple as that.

  112. 112
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Raven: Congrats.

    eta a little surprised they didn’t kick you off the bus too.

  113. 113
    CliosFanboy says:

    @Betty Cracker: comments like that are why you are a front-pager. Great imagery!!!!

  114. 114
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I think that will be the conclusion of this period of American history; to many old people living in the past. Nader and Trump should be bros the way the two of them go on like it’s 1980.

  115. 115

    I think in 2016 some Ds longed for a candidate who inspired them the way Obama did. Maybe younger voters even expected that since it matched with their experience. They projected that onto Wilmer. For a lot of people who were Wilmer curious, the appeal faded once they took a closer look. IMHO, at least in Iowa, he will bomb if he runs again.

  116. 116
    Kay says:

    Daniel Dale
    ‏Verified account
    Follow Follow @ddale8
    If anyone still thinks Democrats don’t have a message focus in this election — they do, and it’s health care. New analysis finds it was mentioned in 61% of Democratic House ads between mid-September and mid-October:

    Which is nice because people wanted to talk about health care in 2016 but political media (led by the awful NYTimes political coverage) insisted on covering emails exclusively.

    But it came up again. And it will keep coming up whether they cover it or not because it’s a problem for people. Donald Trump didn’t matter at all- this wasn’t a campaign of rebutting Donald Trump’s daily lies. They ran, affirmatively, on health care. And media so ignored it they are still insisting Democrats aren’t running on anything. But it didn’t matter.

    This is the approach, I’m convinced. This works.

  117. 117
    Mike in DC says:

    If Biden, Warren and a bunch of younger Dems run, I don’t see any way for Sanders to have a large enough chunk of the vote to win. Biden cuts into his WWC support, Warren siphons votes for her better articulated but similar economic message, and younger, more diverse candidates siphon off some of the youth vote.

    Harris, Gillibrand, Castro, Booker and Warren are my top 5 at the moment.

  118. 118

    @Kay: What would “collapse” mean for the federal courts? What would that look like?

  119. 119
    Immanentize says:

    @tobie: The issues of most POC in this country are the issues of the vast majority of voters regardless of race. Health care, education, work dignity, freedom from harrassment, a real solution for addiction issues, not being treated every day like trash….

  120. 120
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Mike in DC:

    If Biden, Warren and a bunch of younger Dems run, I don’t see any way for Sanders to have a large enough chunk of the vote to win.

    How about this:

    If actual Democrats run, I don’t see any way for Sanders to have a large enough chunk of the vote to win.

  121. 121
    Chyron HR says:

    @Mike in DC:

    I don’t see any way for Sanders to have a large enough chunk of the vote to win.

    Then he can just tell his supporters that the primary was a RIGGED BIGLY FAILYUH! and have them throw a temper tantrum at the convention again. It’s a win/win!

  122. 122
    geg6 says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    The whole thing was completely unmoored from reality. They were literally yelling about how Dems are just being passive and not responding to every Trumpian statement and how they aren’t nationalizing the election like Joemika think it ought to be. That there’s no enthusiasm, no coherent message, boring candidates (except Phil Bredesen, apparently) and everyone hates political correctness and everyone is just too depressed over Brett Kavanaugh and there’s no energy because we lost that one. It’s just nuts. I spend time with our local group, Beaver County Voices for Change, which is mostly women and the youngs. I’ve never seen anything like what I’m seeing from these people. Totally focused and very enthusiastic about all of it. Are they pissed? Well, yes. That’s why they got involved, most of them for the first time ever. But they are channeling the anger and putting their noses to the ground and getting shit done. It’s quite inspiring.

  123. 123
    tobie says:

    @Immanentize: I’m not disputing that
    Nor would HRC. It’s Bernie and Co who railed against identity politics.

  124. 124
    Matt McIrvin says:


    I stupidly put on the Joe and Mika morning fun show and the two of them are frothing at the mouth at what they call Dem complacency, no national message and only one superstar this cycle who is going to lose.

    Joe and Mika are, fundamentally, Republicans (despite what they may say to the contrary). They’ve gotten disgusted with Trump for some reason and they want Democrats to save them now. But they’ve absorbed all the Republican propaganda about what Democrats are like and the state of the race, so they think a red wave is coming.

  125. 125
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Matt McIrvin: basically Republicans? Joe was a republican congressman!

  126. 126
    Tazj says:

    @geg6: They’re ridiculous, I’m glad someone is keeping an eye on their idiocy because I can’t do it. Wasn’t it two seconds ago that Democrats were too angry?

  127. 127
    Brachiator says:

    @Kay: It’s the mid terms. Local issues matter more than some simplified national agenda. And yes, in addition to this, health care is, and continues to be, a huge issue.

    Fortunately I think most voters know what they want; it’s the pundits who are confused.

  128. 128
    Immanentize says:

    @tobie: I know. It’s why he makes my blood boil.

    But trying to separate out the issues of people of color and those of other folks is embracing the Republican worldview. Which, I try to disrupt.

    The wall is not everyone’s issue. It is a substitute for serious issues. The Wall issue divides, the real issues unite.

    /S/ Senior Pollyanna

  129. 129
    trollhattan says:

    Oh, that’s good!

  130. 130
    PJ says:

    @Kay: Well, in defense of the indefensible, for the law students that embrace these kind of programs, it works for them.

    “This makes conservative networks such as the Federalist Society and now, it appears, the Heritage Foundation, very important in terms of nurturing and identifying young conservative legal talent,” she said. “These networks could nurture the next generation of Neil Gorsuches or Brett Kavanaughs.”

    From the values people like Kavanaugh express, we know they have no values. I have no doubt that many of them will, thanks to the Heritage Foundation and the Federalist Society, end up making bank as partisan hacks, if not all the way to the Supreme Court.

    Also of note are the judges and law professors being paid to dole out this swill:

    faculty, which was said to include several sitting federal appeals court judges and professors “from various prominent law schools.”

    The problem with our judiciary, and the legal profession, starts in law schools. Ethics classes are mandatory, but the underlying lesson is do whatever it takes to make the most money.

  131. 131
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Kind of cruel to have an early morning thread about Wilmer. It’s way too early in the day to have to deal with that.

  132. 132
    trollhattan says:

    @Matt McIrvin:
    Agree. They’ve had the backdrop for their conservative bonafides Overton Windowed, stage right and rather than following remain Bush 1 country club Republicans. It’s not as though they’ll suddenly be shilling for single-payer and taxing the rich.

  133. 133
    WaterGirl says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: My first physical therapist for my ankle was good for about 4 appointments, helping me see that I really could put weight on it, but after that he was totally worthless. Let’s just say he didn’t have many tools in his toolbox. The next 12 visits were a total waste of time — and my $480 of copays. I started going backwards!

    Talked to the orthopedist and requested another set of PT from a therapist I had heard about from someone else when I was complaining about the awful I guy I was seeing.

    I could see therapy was helping by the end of first therapy session. Hell, even a the eval, she said at the end “there’s a reason you’re feeing the way you’re feeling”. Now I know – ask around and find out who the best is, and go to that person.

    You know your way around so I’m sure you know that already; I had to learn it the hard way.

  134. 134
    PJ says:

    @Kay: Institutions built on lies, and requiring their workers to accept and propagate lies, can last for decades – look at the Soviet Union. The GOP knows this is a winning strategy with more than a third and less than half of the country, and they think they can finesse the rest with voter suppression, a compliant media, and plenty of dollars placed in the right pockets. They may not be wrong.

  135. 135

    @Matt McIrvin: With Trump, I think Joe and Mika are reacting simple to aesthetics.

  136. 136
    WaterGirl says:

    @geg6: Colbert had Joe and Mika on last night. I watched the monologue, then immediately turned it off. What the hell was Colbert thinking?

    I’m also kind of pissed/disappointed with Preet for doing one of his live shows with the awful Meet the Press guy who thinks it’s not his job to say when someone is lying. WTF, Preet?

  137. 137
    SFAW says:


    Broke a toe on my left foot yesterday morning.

    I assume it came from you kicking a ton of RWA ass.

    Not much you can do about it, I hope it heals quickly.

  138. 138
    WaterGirl says:


    I don’t think the electorate is over its misogyny, so I think we have to go male and pale this time

    I agree about misogyny, but I think female and black would be the best combination this time.

  139. 139
    BellyCat says:

    OT: Question for the hive mind regarding transitions to eldercare.

    My sister works for a very bright man (an MD) that she cares deeply for and he has recently been diagnosed with dementia. (The situation is complicated by the fact that over a decade ago they were in a relationship.) The man is in his late 60s and has two children who live up north. He, and my sister, both live in Florida, several houses apart.

    While he is partially able to function, he needs,at a minimum, part-time care and sometimes full-time care for things like shopping, meal prep, and dressing.

    The children have a very distant relationship with their father and basically just want to put him in a home in Florida. My sister, who feels responsible for him on the day today level and has been helping him for the past two months when things got severe, is overwhelmed and cannot continue to take care of him part-time, let alone full-time.

    Simply put, she needs some guidance and outside perspective. Is there any good web forum where people can discuss these sorts of issues or other resources she can turn to?

    Sorry for any typos, on the iPhone the text window keeps scrolling out of my view and I can’t review it. Additionally, I am “with toddler” today and will have to check back later for any comments or help. Many thanks in advance for those willing to offer insights!

  140. 140
    Mike in NC says:

    Bernie needs to DIAF.

  141. 141
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Beto was very clear in the town hall last night that win or lose on Nov 6, a 2020 presidential run is a no go.

    He said his kids are 7, 10 and 11 (IIRC) and they promised them this two years. Win or lose in Texas for senator, they go back to being a family.

    When pressed — does that mean you would never run? Much more coy about that. Promised that if he did win this year, he will serve every single day of his 6-year term. So Beto is off the table for 2020, but may have different ideas after that when’s kids are older.

  142. 142
    SFAW says:

    @Chyron HR:

    and have them throw a temper tantrum at the convention again.

    One would hope that Lee Papa would be on the stage at the time: “And YOU WHINY MOTHERFUCKERS are a large part of the reason we have the Traitor-in-Chief occupying the Oval Office. Get your heads of of your asses, you morons!”

  143. 143
    catclub says:

    @Anne Laurie: october is the month they tell you to replace smoke alarm batteries.

  144. 144
    WaterGirl says:

    @debbie: That double sucks. Really sorry to hear that.

  145. 145
    WaterGirl says:

    @germy: I hadn’t caught that! Even better.

  146. 146
    WaterGirl says:

    @Baud: Yep. Barack Obama wanted to wait and Dick Durbin basically told him timing is everything, this is your year.

  147. 147
    VOR says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Joe and Mika bear some responsibility for Trump. They helped normalize him with all those call-ins to their show, all that free media. I want to believe they understand that somewhere deep, deep down. But they want someone else to rescue the country from the consequences of their actions without them ever having to admit error.

  148. 148
    Ken Shabby says:

    Nader, Sanders:

    New generation of suckers + betting window + Media Downs = hoarse race.

    Nothing so forlorn as a lost libertarian…

  149. 149
    WaterGirl says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Them’s fighting words.

  150. 150
    Raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: it was the first time my bride and I have voted together!

  151. 151
    Citizen Alan says:


    The joke when I was in law school was that anyone could pass the ethics exam by doing two things. Always pick the answer with the lowest dollar amount or that seemed like what Jesus would do.

  152. 152
    H.E.Wolf says:

    If your sister’s city/township has Senior Services or the equivalent – either through the city itself, or in the non-profit sector – that might be a place to start.

    Her local public library’s reference librarian can probably provide a list of nearby resources.

  153. 153
    Elizabelle says:

    @WaterGirl: I kind of think 2004 might have been Hillary’s year, and not John Kerry’s. She missed her moment, IMHO.**

    Good morning jackals.

    ** albeit, there was always the dynasty issue, and she’d not done her strong turn as Secretary of State, which made her a much more attractive candidate.

    It still rankles that Bush could not be taken down in 2004, although we did eventually get Barack Obama.

  154. 154
    Kay says:

    Beth Fouhy
    ‏Verified account
    2h2 hours ago
    ⁦@mmurraypolitics⁩ makes a great point here-where is the Democratic response to Trump’s conspiracy-laden, brute force closing midterm message? Crickets so far.

    Oh, please. Like any of them would fucking cover a response anyway. Why don’t they give him another hundred million in free campaign coverage like they’ve done for the past two years and leave us out of it. This is between them and Donald Trump. A relationship, a mutually beneficial partnership, and he knows it and they know it. It’s WHY he has so much contempt for them. He knew why they flogged his ridiculous birther campaign. Because it was profitable.

    This is their sick relationship with this man. I want nothing to do with it. It has absolutely nothing to do with anything I care about.

  155. 155
    catclub says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    in law school was that anyone could pass the ethics exam by doing two things.

    I wonder if “and now I’ll decide the case on the merits” is an answer?

    A judge receives a $10k bribe from one side, and a $15k bribe from the other side on a case he will decide.Hhe brings the two parties together, returns the excess $5k from one side, then says: “and now I’ll decide the case on the merits.”

  156. 156
    Manyakitty says:

    @Mike in DC: Add Swalwell to that list, and I think we’re getting somewhere.

  157. 157
    catclub says:

    beagles put their noses to the ground. Shoulder to the wheel, nose to the grindstone.@geg6:

  158. 158
    geg6 says:


    That echoes what Joemika was saying this morning. Amplified by Donny Deutsch. That’s the Village line today, I guess.

  159. 159
    germy says:

    So Assange is suing the government of Ecuador?

  160. 160
    glory b says:

    @Immanentize: Can’t link, but I read this just after reading about the death in childbirth of the daughter in law of television’s Judge Glenda Hatchett (the wife of the judge’s son).

    It’s in, she had blood in her catheter, the nurse asked for a stat CT scan, she didn’t get one until hours later, she died of a hemorrhage.

    She was educated, well traveled, spoke 5 languages.

  161. 161
  162. 162
    Mike in DC says:

    Harris/Castro is my dream ticket. That it is also the perfect “GFY MAGAts” ticket is sheer coincidence.

  163. 163
    eric says:

    @Kay: if you are running in a local election, you dont respond to trump unless there is a meaningful tie-in to your opponent. Trump jacks up Trump voters. From Kay’s comments here, Ohio is the best example of the localization of the governor’s race. Nothing to be said about Trump. Last I saw, Trump applauded the assault of a member of the press and excused the murdering a member of the press. So, I would think the press should speak up louder than the dems on Trump’s anti-democratic bullying.

  164. 164
    Immanentize says:

    @glory b: UGH That’s horrible. Here’s the link

    I’m not saying that there are not issues that people of people of color face that others don’t — or have to face more often in unique ways. I’m suggesting everyone can see how that is injustice. Or that really most can.

  165. 165
    Immanentize says:

    @ruemara: What is on your list that isn’t in mine?

  166. 166
    WaterGirl says:

    Just got email from Beto’s campaign : (snippets, not the entire message) Finally, a campaign that tells me HOW it is going to spend my money. Every dollar you donate now will go to Get Out The Vote.

    We have some urgent news to share: a pro-Cruz super PAC bought $1.6 million worth of TV ads in just one media market alone, just days before Early Voting begins in Texas. More money in more markets to come.

    We haven’t seen these new attack ads yet, but we can almost guarantee their goal is to scare and mislead voters on Beto’s record. That’s the textbook strategy for these kinds of Super PACs. And this new attack comes just days before Early Voting starts. We know exactly what they’re trying to do.

    We need to fight back fast, so we’re setting a new goal to match this super PAC dollar for dollar. We need to raise $1.6 million from grassroots contributions before midnight on Sunday, October 21.

    Every dollar you give will go directly into our ‘get out the vote’ program — the largest in Texas history. Click here to pitch in right now and fight back against this new super PAC attack.

  167. 167
    D58826 says:

    I saw go for it Bernie. That will then remove any doubt that Der Fuhrer will win a second term in a walk (sigh)

  168. 168
    ruemara says:

    @Immanentize: What’s on my list is not on your list. Not in the same quantity, not in the same way. When you think that I face exactly the same challenges as you, you’re pretty much thinking I’m dealing with the same things as you. I’m not. My obstacles are different. My interactions are different. Which is why the AA vote did not go to Wilmer. It went to someone who understood that while we all want the the same basic things, we face decidedly different challenges to get even partway there. You’re kinda going all lives matter when we’re out here struggling to get society to understand black lives and latino lives matter. Not your intention, I know, but still what’s happening. Please listen as people are telling you that there’s an “it” and that ain’t it.

  169. 169
    Tenar Arha says:


    Simply put, she needs some guidance and outside perspective. Is there any good web forum where people can discuss these sorts of issues or other resources she can turn to?

    There’s no easy way to convince a parent or a friend to move. Everyone is different. My father absolutely refused & every reduced capacity milestone was a fight. When it came time for me to research, I called Jewish Family & Children’s Services first.

    I’d look for local to Florida forums. Unfortunately I know of none, but there’s undoubtedly some kind of JF&CS equivalent &/ other elder care assistance organizations if we’re talking East Coastal & Palm Beach County area. She can call them to ask questions & get information on local resources. Including asking about downsizing assistance.

    The problem with her friend is that he may not be ready to admit how much help he needs or leave his home, combined with he could endanger others as he loses his capabilities. One big hurdle is driving, the other is cooking. If he is reaching the point where he needs help with both, then it’s time to try & convince him that downsizing to assisted living is best for him & his kids & the people he could accidentally hurt. Unfortunately as a last resort, that sometimes means calling on the family behind an elder’s back.

    My best wishes to your friend. None of this is easy, & it’s infinitely harder when you’re involved.
    ETA sentence re assisted living

  170. 170

    @ruemara: I have to agree with you. Your very right to exist and dignity as a human being is not questioned at every step if you belong to the demographic that the Rs and media consider the default.
    White, male and Christian.
    For example.
    If you are an immigrant, if you have a job == stole the job from a “deserving American”
    If you are a refugee that needs help == moocher, even if you are a child of 2.

  171. 171
    Gbbalto says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Just what I was thinking

  172. 172
    PJ says:

    @Citizen Alan: That reminds me of the joke a Virginia lawyer made to me about taking the VA bar exam: when in doubt, choose the answer that is more cruel and unusual.

  173. 173
    D58826 says:

    @Steve in the ATL: While I would vote for Biden/Warren in a heart beat I think it’s time to start grooming the next generation of contenders. Biden will be 80. Time for him to enjoy the status of elder statesmen and his grandkids. Warren will be in her 70’s if elected.

    I don’t mean to sound like an ageist but with Warren/Biden as the leading contenders it sucks all of the air (and money) out of the room for the next generation

  174. 174
    Gbbalto says:

    @Kay: Just like what happened to federal savings and loan operations per William K Black – corruption spreads from the top down as ethical people leave.

  175. 175
    Kay says:


    So, I would think the press should speak up louder than the dems on Trump’s anti-democratic bullying.

    Ugh. They will and he’ll laugh at them and this game will continue. I can’t watch it anymore. It’s like observing a horrible, abusive relationship. I really think they ARE at risk- I think someone is going to get hurt- but I don’t know how to fix it for them. I’m trying to elect better people. Other than that I got nuthin for them.

    A lot of people are at risk. Women, immigrants, black people- media people are, in my estimation, at a heightened risk under Donald Trump but so are millions of others.

    I want them to reexamine how they cover Donald Trump and see if they can come up with a new approach. I don’t think their old approaches work and in my view they’re clinging to them, as to a sinking life raft. Let go. Start swimming. The water is polluted and disgusting but they’ll have to adjust.

  176. 176
    Immanentize says:

    @ruemara: I don’t disagree with anything you say except your characterization of what I was saying. The previous discussion was about political messaging at the presidential candidate level. Tobie mentioned a panel that suggested that the democrats should forget about trying to win the WWC vote and focus on the issues that face POC. I agree completely. What I said was that those issues are easily generalizable and resonate with everyone. Well, almost everyone. I don’t think we have a dispute. My list covers everything you mention. You want different emphasis. Other voters want different emphasis from yours. Still, the list is solid.

  177. 177
    glory b says:

    @Immanentize: Oh, I know. Just shaking my head over the coincidence.
    And the sadness. They had a 19 month old too.

  178. 178
    Kay says:


    I look for exceptions. I can’t stand Jake Tapper- I think he’s a sanctimonious prig who invented a Benghazi scandal where there wasn’t one- but he does seem to be able to navigate Trump and retain some dignity. We have to look for ways to approach this. It’s a toxic, sick environment but it’s where we live now. I feel like I know going straight at him won’t work. There’s no ground under your feet.

  179. 179
    Manyakitty says:

    @Mike in DC: I’m good with that. Seems like the most obvious choice, too. I adore both Castro brothers, so I’m not even picky about which one runs with her. What about Sen. Duckworth?

  180. 180
    rikyrah says:


    But, Kay, they don’t disagree with the Heritage Foundation. They don’t remotely disagree with it. It’s not a difficult sell.

  181. 181
    Kay says:

    Josh Rogin
    ‏Verified account
    16h16 hours ago
    In a normal environment, we could be sure the U.S. government was more credible than the Turkish government. But today, we just can’t.

    I discovered the other day I actually do this now. Now I’m a grown up so obviously I knew the US worked things to their advantage so I wasn’t just swallowing it, but now they have NO credibility with me. I was reading about NAFTA and looking for a reliable witness. When I saw the Canadian I thought “oh, good, he was there”. I’m like “hmmm- did the German trade minister SAY that or was it from the lying Trump hires?” I need a witness :)

    I would prefer tape but I’ll take an eye witness. I skim past the Trump people statements “yeah, probably a lie” – they waste my time with their talking.

  182. 182
    rikyrah says:


    Elie Mystal and others were saying over the weekend that the party should go full-steam ahead in crafting a platform and organizing GOTV efforts that addressed the needs of its core constituency: POC.


  183. 183
    Kay says:


    I feel bad for the litigants who are putting so much into a lawsuit and in front of such hacks. Kavanaugh has issued his decision on all petitions brought by the half of the population he sees as his opponents. They lost. It’s all over but the shouting and the years of their lives and hundreds of thousands in legal fees.

  184. 184
    Mike in DC says:

    The more the merrier. As a practical matter, the field is generally cut in half before the first primary/caucus vote, though. So if there’s say 16 people running, by Feb or March it will be down to 8, and by the 5th primary, probably only 3 to 5 candidates will remain.

  185. 185
    Kay says:

    Why did Dick Durbin never run for President? Asking for my husband who may be the only passionate Dick Durbin fan in America. I was like “I don’t know- I never thought of him” and I’m still not really thinking about him, I already forgot about him :)

    I do like him though! He’s very good on student loans!

  186. 186
    Kay says:

    If you tell me Durbin DID run I will be corrected but still right, in a way :)

    I forgot. If he did.

  187. 187
    Mnemosyne says:


    I see what you’re saying, and that approach may work for rational people, but we unfortunately already know from experience that if you run on a platform of doing the most good for the most number of people regardless of race, a majority of white people will vote against you because they’re pissed that they’re losing their special privileges.

    It would need to be crafted as, We’re going to do X because it will help Black women, and also help all women. Women of color are understandably cynical when they’re assured that X is going to help all women, because history shows that that’s not true. So we need to be centering policies on how they will help people of color first, and then on how they will also help white people rather than the (usual) other way around that never fools anyone anyway.

  188. 188
    Manyakitty says:

    @Mike in DC: It does feel like we have a strong crop of up-and-comers. Now the old guard (Biden, Warren, even Moonbeam) needs to support the next generation of leaders.

    Also, as much as I think it SHOULD be Harris/Castro, I suspect Castro/Harris has a better chance of winning. Never underestimate the power of entrenched misogyny.

  189. 189
    BellyCat says:

    @H.E.Wolf: Good starting place. Thanks!

  190. 190
    WaterGirl says:

    @Kay: Dick Durbin is my senator. He is a work horse, not a show horse. I think he simply wasn’t interested. That’s just my opinion.

  191. 191
    Kay says:

    We had a situation here where a Dem candidate (female) complained about an activist because he was too controlling and ordering her around. My sense talking to her was it was more than that, that there was something harassment-related going on, but I talked to the activist and told him to back off. So I ran into her again and it was just the two of us and sure enough he has been texting her to date him. She explained, like women do, that she doesn’t date and hasn’t for 7 years- whatever, I told her- none of my business, don’t have to explain (frankly he’s horrible anyway, so there’s that- no explanation needed!)

    So I confronted him- too strong a word- I told him firmly to stop and he now tells people I “cut his throat” – which just blows me away, the whiny aggrieved drama of saying that. I did nothing of the sort. I told him privately to leave her alone. I was pissed and it showed but I in no way “cut his throat” – I don’t even know where they get this insane fucking language ‘o war.

    Boo hoo. She won’t let me bother this woman who works 18 hours a day and is 20 years older than the activist and a widow and CLEARLY not interested in him.

  192. 192
    WaterGirl says:

    @Mnemosyne: Why do we have to label it anything? Let’s do what helps black women; they are the backbone of the party. Not to mention it’s the right thing to do. If a rising tide lifts all boats, so much the better.

    I just don’t get the need to label and define everything – I think it just invites attacks. It’s like telegraphing your every move. Perfect case in point is the talking point that Trump and MBS are working on their narrative for what happened. They are evil so I’m glad they were foolish enough to telegraph that, but it lesses their believability, which was already at below ground level.

    Speaking of, did anyone see Colbert last night saying that MBS stands for Mr. Bone Saw?

  193. 193
    Mike in DC says:

    @Manyakitty: That would be fine too. I’m strongly inclined towards a ticket sans white guys, though.

  194. 194
    Kay says:


    Well, my husband is quietly supporting his candidacy. If he runs there’s 20 bucks in it. 4 installments of 5 dollars.

    I really do like him. He seems sincere.

  195. 195
    gwangung says:


    I just don’t get the need to label and define everything –

    Because…from painful experience…if you don’t make this point over and over again, the marginalized people will be marginalized again and passed over for aid.

    It’s a need because if you don’t aim it at marginalized groups specifically, it won’t get done.

  196. 196
    Manyakitty says:

    @Mike in DC: At this point, I’m strongly inclined toward a ticket that can win, but none of it matters if we don’t get it together for the midterms. (I think we’re getting it together for the midterms.)

  197. 197
    BellyCat says:

    @Tenar Arha: Did not think of the JFCS, and hoping that they offer guidance to non-Jewish folks on this topic. Great suggestion.

    Yes, they are located near a metropolitan area and it is like you are a fly on the wall. A few months ago, the doctor was involved in a serious three car crash and it is not yet clear who was at fault, but initial reports are suggestive of it being him.

    He had a head injury and brain scans identified dementia — above and beyond anything related to concussion.

    It has been long enough now that any consequence of the head injury is no longer being considered and his behavior was extremely erratic before the crash (putting his pants on backwards, couldn’t start his car because he was using his house key, did not know how to answer the phone in his office, and other clear signs of early dementia). Dementia also runs in his family.

    He has steadfastly refused to accept that he is declining and somehow believes that he will be practicing medicine again, despite the fact that my sister had to close his entire office and sell the practice to another firm.

    When he is lucid (rarely), he tells my sister that he wants her to get on with her life. Much more frequently, he says he cannot live without her AND if he can’t practice, then he has no interest in living.

    She is in an emotional free-fall. :-(

  198. 198
    JWL says:

    Indeed, Nader has caused far more damage to the country than any good he’s done. It’s almost as if all those people that perished in agony when their car’s gas tanks exploded died in vain, for having served as flaming bits of fodder that furthered Nader’s ambitions. And don’t get me started on the number of republicans whose lives have since been saved when their gas tanks failed to explode and consume them for their political iniquities.

  199. 199
    D58826 says:

    @Matt McIrvin: In his prior life Joe was a GOP congresscritter from Fla. so no surprise what direction he leans in

  200. 200
    JWL says:

    Late October 2000:

    Nader: “If you want my endorsement, I want the Interior Department”.

    Gore: [winks at Nader with exaggeration while nudging him in the ribs] “Maybe”.

    Which is to say, Gore was perfectly correct in not making the offer himself.

  201. 201
    Ruckus says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:
    I like both of these comments. Because they are spot on.
    We don’t know who will run for president in 2020, it’s too early and we have to focus on the next 3 weeks.
    We know who we don’t want. The losers from the past who are way beyond their sell by dates and have no actual platforms, just platitudes to run on. (They are like the guy at work who never seems to get anything done but has been there for decades, pontificating his greatness.) Some of them are smart enough to know these concepts. The one’s that aren’t need to shut the fuck up and go away. But of course they won’t, because they aren’t smart enough and have a way over inflated view of themselves. They look in the mirror and see superman and yes some see supergirl.

  202. 202
    Ruckus says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    his basic position being pro-consumer rather than pro-worker.

    Bingo. Everyone is a consumer, even the very poor. Not everyone is a worker. The very rich think they work. But they mostly do not. What they do is pay people to work. shitgibbon is a good example of this, but by far not the only one. Because he often fucks those workers after they get done what he wants. But even people who do work and don’t for him suffer. A fellow worker asked me about the $15 min wage concept. I asked him a question back, how can someone live on less? And why hasn’t the minimum wage gone up in steps over time?
    Nader is and always has been for the upper middle class consumers. And by association the people that make money off of them. He has no concept of anyone else, similar to shitgibbon, who has no real concept of anyone but himself.

  203. 203
    Ruckus says:


    It was always the people in it.

    Government of the people, by the people, for the people.
    Yes, I left off the last part.
    But this is what this country is supposed to be about. All the people. Not just the white males. Not just the males. Not just the wealthy.
    It’s about the people who make up the government. We hire them to do it’s work, not just the work of the rich or the white males. It’s about the people the government affects, both negatively and positively. That’s everyone within it’s borders. Especially those who can’t buy, steal, cheat their way to what they want.

  204. 204
    Tenar Arha says:

    Re: resources AFAIK JF&CS is non-denominational in the services it provides. And they’re a good starting place anyway to find out more even if they cannot help directly. I also completely forgot the Alzheimer’s Association, which has this on their website. Also try googling variations of “how to be a good friend to someone with dementia.”

    I’m so sorry, sounds like your sister is between a rock & a hard place. Remind her he isn’t her responsibility. If she does want to help him remind her too, that even for a parent’s kids, it can be hard to do much without power of attorney or guardianship though dementia is confirmed. In Massachusetts there’s not a lot of options other than contacting the family or the local city/town elder services unless a person is in immediate danger.

    This is concerning

    Much more frequently, he says he cannot live without her AND if he can’t practice, then he has no interest in living.

    but it’s not entirely clear what he means by it. Sounds like your sister would be in a better position than his kids to know if he is saying he wants to die in his home, or if he is threatening to hurt himself. Also, since it’s Florida, could he be a gun owner? Bc there’s different levels to wishing for death. My father said somewhat similar things as he got more frail, but bc I knew him & I knew he had no guns, I understood he likely wouldn’t hurt himself directly.

    Hopefully it’s hyperbole & her best bet to get him cared for really is to get the kids involved, & then support him by visiting him in his new place after he is moved. If she is willing, maybe she can make sure he has the things he likes around him by giving his kids a heads up?

    Remind your sister she can be a good friend trying to help his kids help him. Anyway, sorry to talk on, best wishes to your sister & you.

  205. 205
    Ruckus says:

    Have had some personal experience with people with dementia. My grandparents lived with us as my grandmother was deep in dementia till she passed away. And as I have stated here a number of times my father had Alzheimers. My sister decided that he was not going to end up in a home. So she took him in and hired a girl to live there and help. She lasted 6 weeks. It takes a terrible toll on loved ones to attempt to take care of a dementia patient and some of it depends on the cause of the dementia and how the person responds to it. We know a lot more about this than we did 20-40 yrs ago, which is my timeframe as a close in observer. There are numerous associations with solid information on caring for someone. Google dementia or Alzheimers care.
    But be ready to understand that it can and most often is a massive amount of work and mental anguish for those closest to the patient.

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