Late Night Open Thread: Why Diversity Matters

135 replies
  1. 1
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    I have lived in a non-diverse country – Japan in the mid 2000s – and it was pretty nice. About as nice as America, on average

    As nice as Japan is, aren’t they facing demographic collapse in a few decades because because they’re so xenophobic and homogeneous? Their birthrates are extremely low, like many other developed nations and immigration isn’t making up the shortfall.

  2. 2
    Connor says:

    In a word: perfect.

    The America you describe is worth fighting for. It is the America I want my daughter to experience. Hell, yes.

  3. 3
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    Also, fuck Tucker Carlson. Our common values are a commitment to democracy, freedom, equality, and yes, diversity. Different languages can be barriers, yes, but they don’t have to be if you are either willing to create programs that teach non-English speaking immigrants to speak English and/or encourage more your citizens to learn foreign languages. As I’ve said before, being a superpower has left us arrogant, lazy, and provincial. Carlson is a perfect example of this.

  4. 4
    MagdaInBlack says:

    If these frightened little people wish to entomb themselves in their tiny white-bread world where nothing ever changes, thats fine. They do not speak for me and they do not get to entomb me along with them.
    It’s a big beautiful interesting world full of interesting people, and I /we can and do learn and grow from this diversity. I embrace it.

  5. 5
    lollipopguild says:

    Hitler called us a “mongrel nation”, and he was right. It was the one of the reasons we were able to win WW2. We probably have people in our country from almost every country on the planet.

  6. 6
    BC in Illinois says:

    Ex uno unum.

    Sounds easier and smoother, but it ends up with a vision of a bunch of white guys sitting on a rock, being white.

    There’s more to America than that.

  7. 7
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    I hate to dominate the comments, but I do fear that continued minority rule by the GOP will undermine the free and diverse society that has emerged in America.

    Putin also fears and hates us for our diversity because he doesn’t want a diverse society in Russia because that means less control. That’s another reason the Russians have been courting the R’s; they’re more alike than the MSM would care to admit.

  8. 8
    Geoboy says:

    May I suggest that Tucker relocate to Pitcairn Island? That’s got to be among the least diverse group of people on earth.

  9. 9
    Yutsano says:

    @lollipopguild: Mongrels tend to be stronger dogs than purebreds. We have a LOT more work to do in regards to integrating this country fully, but our society might just pull it off. As we get exposed to the various cultures that make up this country we get to figure out how we all get along and how each of us make this country great.

  10. 10
    B.B.A. says:

    @Geoboy: With the world’s highest rate of child molestation per capita… well, I’m not going to be uncivil and suggest that Tucker would fit right in there. Perish the thought.

  11. 11
    AnotherBruce says:

    If Tucker Carlson does not like living in a diverse nation, he should leave.

  12. 12
    Yutsano says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: Eh fuck Vladdie. His own society is showing cracks and the only reason he gets listened to at all is the old Soviet nuclear arsenal.All he can really do is interference schemes to undermine Western society so he and his oligarch friends can keep soaking the Russian people.The problem is he played our right wing like a Stradivarius. And the worst part is how many don’t care as long as it pwns the libs.

  13. 13
    SenyorDave says:

    Occam’s Razor. Carlson is a racist. He doesn’t like POC.

  14. 14
    Geoboy says:

    Upon reading further in the Wikipedia entry for Pitcairn Island (estimated population 50), I came across these:

    “n 2004, charges were laid against seven men living on Pitcairn and six living abroad. This accounted for nearly a third of the male population. After extensive trials, most of the men were convicted, some with multiple counts of sexual encounters with children.[28] On 25 October 2004, six men were convicted, including Steve Christian, the island’s mayor at the time.”

    “In 2010, the then mayor Mike Warren faced 25 charges of possessing images and videos of child pornography on his computer.[36][37] In 2016 Warren was found guilty of downloading more than 1000 images and videos of child sexual abuse. Warren began downloading the images some time after the 2004 sexual assault convictions. During the time he downloaded the images he was working in child protection. Warren was also convicted of engaging in a “sex chat” with someone who he believed was a 15-year-old girl.[38]”

    In other words, the perfect end state for the current members of the Republican Party.

  15. 15
    B.B.A. says:

    Has Les Moonves killed himself yet?

  16. 16

    Always appreciate Noah Smith. My husband saw him on Muni the other day. Tweeting about rabbits, I think he said.

  17. 17
    Mary G says:

    @Yutsano: There’s footage on the news today of Putin’s police roughing up peaceful protesters and shoving them into buses, including a big beefy guy with a young girl. He’s got hold of her backpack and raised it high in the air while she’s still wearing it, which has to be choking her. The protests arose because the Russian government cut old-age pensions, which affects everyone there who isn’t an oligarch. He needs Trump, the rise of right-wing parties all over, and the war in Syria to distract and disrupt the rest of the world.

  18. 18
    Evil_Paul says:

    @Yutsano: Exactly. Purity leads to stagnation and decline.

  19. 19
    BruceJ says:

    @lollipopguild: the soliquophy in Stripes has always resonated with me:

    Cut it out! Cut it out! Cut it out! The hell’s the matter with you? Stupid! We’re all very different people. We’re not Watusi. We’re not Spartans. We’re Americans, with a capital ‘A’, huh? You know what that means? Do ya? That means that our forefathers were kicked out of every decent country in the world. We are the wretched refuse. We’re the underdog. We’re mutts!

    I never want to live somewhere everyone’s the same.

    Sure it was a dumb Harold Ramis comedy…but it’s true.

  20. 20

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    I do fear that continued minority rule by the GOP will undermine the free and diverse society that has emerged in America.

    Thatโ€™s rather the goal, yes.

  21. 21
    dmsilev says:

    Last week, I mentioned an interesting pizza recipe, which involved baking just the crust with some ice cubes on top and using the resulting pool of hot starchy water to make a cheese sauce right on top of the baked crust. I tried it today and it was pretty damn good. The dough was tedious to make (mix the starter on Friday, the dough yesterday, and then shape it and bake today), but it gave a wonderfully air-filled and crunchy crust, and the cheese and black pepper sauce was nicely creamy and very tasty (cheese was 3/4 cup of aged grated Parmesan and nothing else, finish with fresh-ground black pepper and a splash of olive oil).

    (recipe from this cookbook)

  22. 22

    Does this clown actually have a segment called “Answer Me This”? Christ. I think that’s even worse than the guy on Murphy Brownwho had a segment called “All’s I Know”.

  23. 23
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @Mary G:
    Yup. He has to tear everybody else down so he can even stay afloat, let alone on top. He’s an evil fuck who’s destroying the global order when humanity could least afford it as a species. Russia is even a signatory to the Paris Agreement so he has to be aware of climate change. How does it make it any fucking sense to disrupt the most advanced nations on Earth that could contribute to solving this threat. I believe he even has a daughter. Doesn’t he give a shit what will happen to his descendants?

  24. 24

    @John Revolta: โ€œyou know what really grinds my gears…โ€

  25. 25

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: like the rest of the wealthy I imagine heโ€™s sure his descendants will be fine.

  26. 26
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @Mary G:

    The protests arose because the Russian government cut old-age pensions

    Huh, sounds like something Republicans would do and would prefer to treat protesters. Funny, that. All of these ideological similarities keep popping up. And nobody in Beltway media ever seems to acknowledge this. Nobody seems to want to discuss this, except us dirty fucking hippies.

  27. 27
  28. 28
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    My friend in HS used to say that all the time

  29. 29
    dmsilev says:

    @John Revolta: He’s probably trying to ape Bill O’Reilly’s talking-point thing while not seeming to ape it _too_ closely.

  30. 30
    burnspbesq says:

    Noahโ€™s a bloody genius. He doesnโ€™t blog as much as he did a few years ago, but every post is severely worth reading, even if you end up disagreeing. Example:


    He might end up being his generationโ€™s Krugman.

  31. 31
    Another Scott says:

    An excellent defense of American diversity. Thanks.

    If one is just of a materialistic bent, there are excellent arguments for diversity as well. E.g. Snopes:

    […] the contribution of immigrants to the United Statesโ€™ Nobel Prize tally has still been extraordinary over the years.

    If we take into account all categories, going back to the year 2000, our analysis shows that out of the 122 Nobel laureates who were based in the U.S. at the time of their award, 39 were not born in the United States. Thatโ€™s 32 percent.

    Given that the foreign-born population of the United States as a whole was 12.9 percent at the last census in 2010, this suggests that foreign-born researchers and scholars have made an outsized contribution at the highest levels of American science and economics.

    This trend is particularly pronounced in the natural sciences. Out of the 83 physics, chemistry and medicine laureates based in the U.S. since 2000, some 32 were born outside the United States, which is 39 percent.

    Which makes sense.

    It’s horribly disruptive and stressful to pack up and move – especially to a new country! One has to be really, really motivated to do that. Being really, really motivated shows up in other areas of life, like working really really hard in school, business, art, literature, and more. People willing to do all that enrich all of our lives.

    Racists aren’t only evil, they’re stupid not to see that.


  32. 32

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: well in this case itโ€™s just because theyโ€™re both anti-poor conservatives.

  33. 33
    HalfAssedHomesteader says:

    I wish he would go back to his little boy bow ties. That way you knew to punch him before anything spewed from his ugly gob.

  34. 34
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    I belive the reply to Tucker is “Amurica love it or you can f-off back to your home country loser” America has always been a nation of immigrants.

  35. 35
    The Dangerman says:

    What does a “non-diverse” nation look like? Only Christian? Only Caucasian? Only blonde haired, blue eyed Aryans? If the last, Tuckers got a problem;.

  36. 36
    Suzanne says:


    Occamโ€™s Razor. Carlson is a racist. He doesnโ€™t like POC.

    This isn’t about liking or not liking anyone. It’s not about anyone’s personal feelings or their black friends or their adopted African children or whatever.

    Carlson and his cohorts do not want minorities, women, LGBTs, Muslims, etc etc etc to have power in society commensurate with their number and participation. THAT is why he is racist.

    Diversity is our biggest strength. No one needs a team full of first basemen.

  37. 37
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    The irony of someone called Carlson railing against diversity. His mothers maiden name was Lombardi. Not a Smith or Jones among them.

    Sorry, I should have realised, it is non-white diversity that he finds so offensive.

    Tucker Carlson is a racist piece of shit.

  38. 38
    KlareCole says:

    Diversity, I suppose it is constitutionally implied, like right to privacy. But Iโ€™m doubting our founders had our definition of diversity in mind as they were white supremicists. Diversity is really nothing more than decency, and we arenโ€™t a very decent society anymore. I donโ€™t need the constitution to tell me what is right about diversity. There is no โ€˜racialโ€™ or ethnic purity anywhere. The history of humanity is migration & cross pollination. Unfortunately we are very clannish & exclusionary by nature. But our quality of reason tells us that if we believe in equality, then it extends to everyone, whether we like them or not. Conservatives & Trumpies donโ€™t get this, donโ€™t want to. If there was just some way to extinguish Fox News that wouldnโ€™t violate free speech, well, that would stop a source of awful propaganda.

  39. 39

    @Major Major Major Major: @dmsilev: I suppose we should be thankful they left off the first part: “If You Think You’re So Smart…………”

  40. 40

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    Putin also fears and hates us for our diversity because he doesnโ€™t want a diverse society in Russia because that means less control.

    Putin has a diverse society. Russia is an empire, and it has the kind of diversity that’s inherent to conquering a bunch of your neighbors. What Putin wants is to make sure that it remains a Russian dominated empire rather than a pluralistic society where all the subject people actually get a say. It’s very similar to the views of racist whites here; they are afraid that letting minorities get any power will result in them being subjugated the same way they’ve been subjugating everyone else for the past few centuries.

  41. 41
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @The Dangerman:
    Stepford, CT

  42. 42
    Bonnie says:

    As an American Indian, I will go along with Carlson not wanting diversity; and, he is very welcome to leave America any time soon. However, I like the balloon juicers and you all are welcome to stay.

  43. 43
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @Another Scott:
    It takes more courage than I have.

  44. 44

    @John Revolta: They also left off the end: “You think you’re better than me?”

  45. 45
    Dmbeaster says:

    Hating diversity is just the latest Atwater code speak for fvck brown, black, yellow people or every other shade of non-white people.

  46. 46
    Wapiti says:

    @lollipopguild: Having a diverse population helped us win the peace after WWII, too. We had a ton of Italian-Americans who still spoke Italian that could do civil affairs in post-war Italy. We had tons of German-speakers who worked in Germany.

    It continues to modern day. We had Haitian-creole speakers alongside our forces in Haiti in ~1994 and we were able to recruit Americans with Arabic language skills for the invasion of Iraq.

  47. 47
    NotMax says:


    He also named his personal train Amerika* as an homage to our racist laws and history.

    *changed only after the U.S. entered the war

  48. 48

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    How does it make it any fucking sense to disrupt the most advanced nations on Earth that could contribute to solving this threat.

    A lot of Russians mistakenly believe that they’ll benefit from climate change. They see cold as the big enemy and thing global warming will make their country a nicer place to live. Evil and stupid.

  49. 49

    @Dmbeaster: I donโ€™t think it quite rises to that level of euphemism.

  50. 50
    gwangung says:

    In a slightly different take, this dude makes the point

    a) we’ve dominated the world BECAUSE we are diverse and our products come from a diverse society,

    and b) it’s HARDER to have a monocultural society because you waste so much time keeping things “pure”…

  51. 51
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    The America experiment must continue.

    It’s not just an American experiment. It’s an Australian, New Zealand, British, Dutch, Swedish, Spanish, Canadian, etc, etc experiment. In general it’s an experiment of the Western World.

    America has 13% of its population born abroad. In Australia that percentage is 28%. In NZ it’s 19%. In Spain it’s 14%.

    If America can’t get this right, the rest of the world will.

  52. 52
    NotMax says:

    Sigh. It never ends.

    Finished the pre-Olivia mowing (2+ hours). Went to connect a hose to the mower to wash out the blade table and the standpipe snapped off below ground from the gentlest of tugs on the hose when moving it into position.

    Shut-off valve engaged and gonna leave it be until after the storm passes completely. Luckily the only things without water now are two hose spigots further down the line from any living quarters.

  53. 53
    J R in WV says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    …I imagine heโ€™s sure his descendants will be fine.

    Does Little Tucker have descendants? At all? I don’t, but I’m not a conservative asshat… I love diversity.

  54. 54
    HarlequinGnoll says:

    clearly tucker has not seen any RTS (real time strategy) ever. only use 1 unit type in an army and you’re going to get crushed by a mixed force if not a straight counter to your unit.

  55. 55
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:
    In generations past, when there were fewer people of colour, Tucker Carlson’s Lombardi ancestors wouldn’t have been considered white enough by the real white people. Racists always have to have someone to feel superior to, someone to shun.

  56. 56
  57. 57

    @Another Scott:
    While it’s interesting to focus on high-end immigration, the need for cheap labor has been a driving force for large-scale immigration. We’ve repeatedly brought in poor, desperate people from across the world to do the dirty work the previous generation of immigrants are now no longer willing to do. I guess today’s racists have decided to get off the treadmill and try to create a large, permanent underclass who will continue to do the dirty work because they have no chance of doing better.

  58. 58
    Mnemosyne says:


    Our ongoing technology explosion happened after the Civil Rights Movement. Turns out that choosing scientists on the basis of merit rather than race or gender means that you make scientific advances more quickly.

    The more civil rights people have and the less employment and educational discrimination there is, the faster science moves forward.

  59. 59
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:
    And not just in the Western world. Malaysia has considerable ethnic diversity, thanks to its pre-colonial history as well as the British practice of bringing in labour from India and China. Dealing with that diversity, with what it means to be Malaysian, is part of our journey as a nation too.

  60. 60
    joel hanes says:


    Iโ€™m doubting our founders had our definition of diversity in mind

    You’re right; they built an historic solution to a different diversity problem.

    The founders were looking back at a Europe repeatedly devastated by wars, not between races or ethnicities, but between different sects of Christianity.
    And the Colonies spanned the gamut, from founded-as-a-Catholic-enclave Maryland to intolerant Puritans to pacifist Quakers to atheists-in-all-but-name Deists. Almost every sect that made its neighbors uncomfortable in Europe contributed a group who went to America to escape religious oppression by making a place for themselves in the vast space of the new world

    So the bits in the Declaration and the Constitution that in later years have inspired us to enfranchise women and persons of all races were largely intended to reassure white men of historically-conflicting religious traditions that all would have freedom of conscience, and that the state would not favor one religion over another. So religious affiliation became the first protected class — unless of course your religion was not Christian.

  61. 61
    joel hanes says:


    we were able to recruit Americans with Arabic language skills for the invasion of Iraq.

    But then, for the second invasion of Iraq, W’s minions got many of those with Arabic skills tossed from the armed forces for being gay.

  62. 62
    NotMax says:


    Massive, continuing post-war infusion of federal dollars into R&D (which also created a plethora of new slots to be filled) had a little something to do with it.

  63. 63
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:


    If there was just some way to extinguish Fox News that wouldnโ€™t violate free speech, well, that would stop a source of awful propaganda

    There are plenty of ways to extinguish Fox News that don’t violate First Amendment protections.

  64. 64
    EBT says:

    Just like I responded to Noah with, Look at an inbred dog. That is why diversity is good.

  65. 65
    Oklahomo says:

    @Mnemosyne: Nazi Germany drove out the Jewish scientists and derided Einstein’s theories as Jewish nonsense (fake science, if you will). Guess who benefited from all those European physicists fleeing the anti-Semites…

  66. 66
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @joel hanes:

    I watched a clip on YouTube on Sam Seder’s show and the interns (I think) were hosting a call-in segment. He was a self-described “constitutionalist” and was a wingnutty teabagger of course.

    I barely remember most of the video as I watched it a few years ago, but what I do remember was the intern essentially mocking his originalist bullshit.

    He did this by saying that if some of the Founding Fathers appeared now and saw a smartphone, they would go, “What the fuck is that”? and not know what it was. He also said, while laughing, that many of the Founders were, “wife-beating, slave-owning losers”. Basically, while they had some good ideas, they weren’t perfect and in some respects were pretty terrible people who likely wouldn’t relate well to modern America’s issues or values.

  67. 67
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    Whatever happened to commenter shortstop on this blog? I liked something about her style, and she would occasionally refer to the second baseman, whom I took to be her partner.

    (Pretty sure shortstop was female, but couldn’t swear to it.)

  68. 68

    @Oklahomo: of course, then later we took in those Nazi scientists…

  69. 69
    NotMax says:

    @joel hanes

    So religious affiliation became the first protected class โ€” unless of course your religion was not Christian.

    Off base. How about this instead:

    So religious belief became an enumerated right โ€” unless of course you were non-white.

    Insofar as Christians, anti-Catholic sentiment was all too evident and widespread still when both Al Smith and JFK ran for prez during the 20th century.

  70. 70
    Doug R says:

    FFS America had a bunch of homogenous cultures linked to each other by trade until a bunch of Eurotrash invaded and messed everything up. Then they brought people in chains to do the manual labor and the descendents of this SAME Eurotrash have the gall to complain about their precious culture being disrupted? If Tucker hates America so much, why doesn’t he learn Swedish and go back to Europe. F*ck these fragile Eurotrash privilege idiots. America was built by refugees, anyone doesn’t like that is free to leave.

  71. 71
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Hey, we couldn’t let the Evil Empire get all of them could we?

  72. 72
    Doug R says:

    Japanese culture? It’s actually Koreans that emigrated and squeezed out the native population. There’s still pockets of them, the pearl divers who used to dive topless.

  73. 73
    patrick II says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    Our original national motto was “E Pluribus Unum”, or “From the Many, One”. Diversity was the nature of the country or founding fathers fought for.

  74. 74
    Doug R says:

    @BruceJ: Stripes was directed by a Canadian working with Americans and Canadians, probably why that speech of Bill Murray’s runs so true.

  75. 75
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    In political and economic terms Malaysia and Singapore are pretty much defacto of the West, no matter how much they proclaim differences.

    The West, like Western countries themselves, is becoming less and less ethnically European.

    South Korea and of course Japan are the obvious examples. They are certainly not European, but they certainly are Western.

    I think Indonesia is headed the same way over the next couple of decades, barring disasters.

  76. 76
    Felanius Kootea says:

    Why does Tucker Carlson get to decide anything? What ideas of value and substance has he contributed to the US? Spewing white supremacist shit that could end up destroying the US as a democracy on a propaganda network thatโ€™s pretty similar to the genocidaire radio network of Rwanda? It must be something to get paid millions to destroy the country you claim to love so much. Hope heโ€™s bought his dacha.

  77. 77
  78. 78
    Oklahomo says:

    @Major Major Major Major: The kind of diversity that Tucker & Co. would be okay with.

  79. 79

    @Oklahomo: they certainly think itโ€™s okay to invite Nazis to speak at colleges.

  80. 80

    @joel hanes:

    So religious affiliation became the first protected class โ€” unless of course your religion was not Christian.

    It wasn’t just Christians, either. There were both Jews and Muslims in the US from its founding, and at least some of the founding fathers were explicit in saying that was just fine. For example, George Washington wrote a famous letter to a Jewish congregation in Newport, RI assuring them that they could keep worshiping as they pleased without being bothered for it. Less famously, but IMO more interestingly, the principal author of the “no religious test” clause in the Constitution, Charles Pickney, was asked flat out if it meant Muslims could hold high office. He replied not just yes, but that he hoped to see it happen.

  81. 81
    KlareCole says:

    @joel hanes:

    So religious affiliation became the first protected class โ€” unless of course your religion was not Christian.

    A sizable caveat. But yes, the foundation of tolerance was sprinkled about the Declaration and Constituion enough to flesh out freedoms. 18th century culture was very restricted but compared to a monarchy from which they rebelled, we were a very liberal movement. And that foundation obviously continues in fits and starts.

    I agree with the several views on what makes diversity desirable. Many benefits to all concerned. But conservatives will only tolerate it when forced by some circumstance. Conservatism by nature clings to enduring patterns. Patterns which engender homogeneneity. Diversity is as natural as conservatism, so they will have to adjust. They make the diverse suffer a lot in the meantime.

  82. 82
    EBT says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: They let more immigrants in than the USA does, per capita, right from Noah’s mouth some months back.

  83. 83
    Ruckus says:

    @Another Scott:
    Isn’t being fucking stupid their defining characteristic?

  84. 84

    @EBT: we have a higher birth rate though, and nothing like their generational cliff issue.

  85. 85
    Oklahomo says:

    @Major Major Major Major: They also don’t have a problem with them working as White House staff, it would seem. But what a fall — instead of Nuremberg rallies with pillars of light we have incels with Tiki Torches.

  86. 86
    Ruckus says:

    Along with the ongoing industrial revolution, where advances could piggyback on other advances. Which requires a better more diverse workforce to continue. Yes the dollars paid for people and equipment to do the work but dollars without smarts just gets people with money. The smarts, the differing educations that flow from a diverse nation are what makes advances faster.

  87. 87
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    According to the Kardashev Scale, we’re currently a type 0.7 civilization. What type does that make the Roman Empire (and similar contemporary civs) at its height?

    And are ancient civilizations considered more distinct than the ours. Is there a single modern human civilization or are there still several?

  88. 88
    Mandalay says:


    As an American Indian, I will go along with Carlson not wanting diversity

    Then you might go along with Bill Maher not being too keen either. On his show last Friday night he was mocking Trump for losing money from owning casinos, then joked โ€œEven the Indians can make casinos work!โ€.

    I understand that sometimes jokes just don’t work out, and I get it that we all say stupid shit we truly don’t really mean or believe occasionally, but WTF was going on in Maher’s head for him to even think that in the first place?

  89. 89
    Ruckus says:

    The easy answer for Fucker Carlson is:
    Diversity helps the United States by lowering the percentage of asswipes like you.

  90. 90
    EBT says:

    @Roger Moore: Don’t forget the letter Jefferson wrote in or about 1807 affirming America’s friendship with Muslim nations.

  91. 91
    EBT says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Yes, but that is a different problem from xenophobia and closed gates.

  92. 92

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    And are ancient civilizations considered more distinct than the ours.

    Given that there was less intermingling, in many ways yes.

  93. 93
    EBT says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: The quote was better when Spyder Jerusalem quipped we were still a type 0 civilization.

  94. 94
    EBT says:

    @EBT: And we aren’t even a .7. For earth to have a type 1 civilization we need to harness 7* 10^17 watts of energy. That is five orders of magnitude more than we do now. Far far far away from 70% even on a logarithmic scale,

  95. 95
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @Roger Moore:

    Less famously, but IMO more interestingly, the principal author of the โ€œno religious testโ€ clause in the Constitution, Charles Pickney, was asked flat out if it meant Muslims could hold high office. He replied not just yes, but that he hoped to see it happen.

    Evidence that the “product of their times” is a piss poor excuse and certain human values like freedom and equality transcend time and place; that a universal morality exists and you don’t need God for it either.

  96. 96
    EBT says:

    @EBT: (we would be a type .000001 for the record)

  97. 97
    Martin says:

    @Geoboy: If we relocated him to the moon, it’d be even less diverse.

  98. 98
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Roger Moore:
    I did not know that about Pickney.

  99. 99
    Mike J says:

    Good movie or bad movie?

  100. 100
    EBT says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: This times a thousand. Everyone always fucking knew slavery was wrong, but everyone has the awful idea that we can’t call the past out for being racist shits.

  101. 101
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @Mandalay: I caught that too and shook my head. The problem is that toxic ideas like Tuckerโ€™s and Bannonโ€™s and Trumpโ€™s are seeping in everywhere in this era and liberal/libertarian assholes like Maher are not immune. This is why you donโ€™t give genocidaires a national propaganda network. Their reach is much further than the ditto-heads watching Fox News.

  102. 102
    Martin says:

    Diversity has always been a bullshit boogeyman. My Irish family was originally rejected as bringing undesirable cultural elements such as Catholicism, and then was embraced as an example of diversity (both Irish and Italian communities – how diverse!).

    People in power are being threatened by those out of power, so we have to scapegoat those out of power. That’s all it’s ever been.

  103. 103
    West of the Rockies says:

    I know there are the true believers, the quintessential RWNJ’s. But is Carlson one of those? (Are Hannity and Coulter and Ingraham?) Is it all for cash, all the lies and rage and fear-mongering?

    I can’t imagine being the spouse of one of those people and hearing them say such crap; it’s hard to imagine going to the Peterson’s Sunday BBQ and seeing Judge Jeanine there and just acting like she’s a reasonable, compassionate, honorable person.

    Maybe we have progressive pundits for whom it’s all just a dog and pony show. I don’t think so, but I just can’t wrap my head around how you can be a furious “answer me this” person and still look yourself in the mirror.

  104. 104
    EBT says:

    @Felanius Kootea: Maher was always a shitty person though. Most people were just ok with him saying terrible things about minorities.

  105. 105
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @EBT: I know heโ€™s always been a shitty person and canโ€™t bear to listen to him when the topic turns to Islam, but that comment about Native Americans Friday was quite revealing. He knows to be careful with blacks especially after the blowback from his House Nigger comment. He wasnโ€™t expecting any pushback with this one. Iโ€™m saying the Trump era makes it easier for the even shittier side of the Bill Maherโ€™s of this world to emerge because they think theyโ€™re on the right side and can therefore do no wrong (I also hope Michelle Goldberg declines any future invitations to his show).

  106. 106
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:


    Carl Sagan suggested defining intermediate values (not considered in Kardashev’s original scale) by interpolating and extrapolating the values given above for types I (1016 W), II (1026 W) and III (1036 W), which would produce the formula

    {\displaystyle K={\frac {\log _{10}P-6}{10}}} ,
    where value K is a civilization’s Kardashev rating and P is the power it uses, in watts. Using this extrapolation, a “Type 0” civilization, not defined by Kardashev, would control about 1 MW of power, and humanity’s civilization type as of 1973 was about 0.7 (apparently using 10 terawatt (TW) as the value for 1970s humanity).

    Got the number 0.7 from Sagan on the Wikipedia page for the Kardashev scale.

  107. 107
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:
    The formula should be
    K= log10 P-6/10

  108. 108
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    According to the Kardashev Scale, weโ€™re currently a type 0.7 civilization. What type does that make the Roman Empire (and similar contemporary civs) at its height?

    Kardashev’s Type 1 civilisation uses all the energy that falls on its planet from its star. I think anything less than this was just regarded as “not a Type 1 civilisation” rather than on an arithmetic scale of 0.0 to 1.0.

    Being about energy use, the Kardashev Scale has some obvious limitations, such as “how efficiently can this civilisation process information?”. Which might be a better measure of civilisational maturity.

    That said, the Roman Empire probably held on average over time about 50 million people. Assuming the number of farm animals to be about the same. Assuming each animal is roughly 1 horsepower. Assuming about 90% of the human population to be engaged in manual labour. Assuming the each such person is about 0.1 horsepower. You end up with about 55 million horsepower which is about 40 megawatts. Lots of assumptions and doesn’t include the water wheels and windmills which the Romans used, which might double it.

    A Type 1 civilisation would use about 7 x 10 to the 11 megawatts. So the Roman Empire’s Empires energy use is not significant at that scale and may as well be rounded down to zero.

  109. 109
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    He was also an enthusiastic slaver and author of the Fugitive Slave Clause of the US Constitution.

  110. 110
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:
    The Type “0” level is a modification, along with Type 4 and Type 5, that was added on later by I think Carl Sagan. He’s the one that came up with 0.7 calculation for 1973 Earth. Speaking of Rome, they had discovered the steam engine. Why didn’t they see the practical applications later Europeans did such as steam locomotives and a means to power factories. In other words, why didn’t the industrial revolution start earlier? I also wonder what the environmental effects would have been by now if it had?

  111. 111
    Mandalay says:

    @Felanius Kootea:

    He wasnโ€™t expecting any pushback with this one.

    Apart from you and me, I’m not aware that Maher is getting any pushback at all. Maybe that’s due of the normalization of the ideas of the extreme right. Yet I doubt that he would have made that joke (or the house n***a one) during Obama’s presidency.

    But Maher also delights in repeatedly calling Democrats, liberals and students pu**ies and wimps because they won’t debate extremists like Ann Coulter, Steve Bannon and Milo Yiannopoulos. Despite tagging himself as a Democrat/liberal/progressive when it suits him, he actually has more in common with Republican knuckle-draggers than he realizes. For example, why does he frame a discussion about giving extremists the oxygen of publicity in terms of being strong or being a weak pu**y? That’s straight out of Trump’s playbook.

  112. 112
    ๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท says:


    Maybe thatโ€™s due of the normalization of the ideas of the extreme right.

    I doubt this is why. His audience was probably already full of asshole glibtarians.

    For example, why does he frame a discussion about giving extremists the oxygen of publicity in terms of being strong or being a weak pu**y? Thatโ€™s straight out of Trumpโ€™s playbook.

    It’s not a good idea to give people like Bannon etc oxygen as you say. However, using the right’s rhetoric against them in arguments is personally satisfying. Calling them weak, pansies, un-American etc is fun but has never actually worked in my personal experience, online at least.

  113. 113
    West of the Rockies says:


    What’s the point of debating any of those imbeciles anyway? They’ll ignore what they can’t answer, use misdirection and straw man arguments, and belittle the opposition and piss and moan the whole time.

  114. 114
    Felanius Kootea says:

    OT: DissidentFish if youโ€™re out there I was an asshole yesterday and Iโ€™m sorry. Hope to see you commenting again soon.

  115. 115
    Mandalay says:

    @West of the Rockies:

    Whatโ€™s the point of debating any of those imbeciles anyway?

    I’m with you – none at all. That’s why it frustrates me to see Maher attack those who refuse to debate RWNJs, yet he still wants to call himself a Democrat/liberal/progressive.

    With friends like Maher we don’t need enemies; he’s the enemy within. Next time he wants to boost his ego and write out a big fat check I’d love to see the DNC tell him to get lost and shove his dirty money up his libertarian ass.

  116. 116
    EBT says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: I admit I am just using Kardashev’s original definitions of “all the energy the parent star gives to the planet” for type 1.

  117. 117
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท:

    The steam engine of the Romans was the aeolipile, which was really a type of primitive steam turbine rather than an engine as such. It was probably too tricky to harness it to something to get useful work out of it and was extremely inefficient. Besides, there were plenty of slaves around sitting on their bums.

    The industrial revolution probably began as soon as it became possible to consistently engineer the parts for a reciprocating engine to the required tolerances.

  118. 118
    Origuy says:

    @Viva BrisVegas: The Romans didn’t have the machining technology to make such a device practical. Something like a piston requires pretty high tolerances, as well as metallurgy that the Romans didn’t have. They could have made a few one-off machines, but not on an industrial scale.

  119. 119
    Origuy says:

    I just realized you said the same thing I did. I should have read your comment all the way through.

  120. 120
    patrick II says:

    @Felanius Kootea:
    He’s stepped up his assholery because it pays better.

  121. 121
    ColoradoGuy says:

    An awful lot of industrial civilization rests on metallurgy. The breakthrough for railways, steam engines, and steamships was decent-quality steel that would provide durable rails and boilers that wouldn’t blow up. You can’t do that with ceramics or wood products, so this is a limitation that applies to any civilization in the galaxy, not just the path we took. Even modern plastics make pretty poor materials for building a railway … steel, aluminum, or titanium are the only reasonable choices, and the last two are pretty expensive. Steel is cheap, strong and durable, and takes high temperatures well. And iron ore is very common on Earth, fortunately for us.

    Conceivably, the Romans or Greeks could have made boilers from bronze, at astronomical cost, but the tolerances would have been very poor and efficiency very low. And spectacular blowups would have been common once steam pressures rose to usable values.

    Now if the Romans or Greeks had figured out how to make steel at scale, that might have changed things, but then the problem was the common practice of guild trade secrecy, and the lack of a patent system to disseminate new inventions. They may have invented many clever things that have been lost to history thanks to guild secrecy and the destruction of the classical libraries.

  122. 122
    zyklonbarthur says:

    I tried to watch Maher’s latest comedy special and I couldn’t get through even the first few minutes; his smugness was grating.

    Gee, the rich white guy thinks political correctness is terrible because racism and sexism don’t impact him personally.

    Color me friggin’ SHOCKED.

  123. 123
    rikyrah says:

    I went to the Aquarium yesterday. I love going to places like that. One of my favorite things to do is people watch. I love watching all the different types of people that I see..That is this country’s strength.

  124. 124
    JR says:

    @Another Scott: Hitler torpedoed German science — before then no one was even close: EInstein, Bethe, Krebs, Chain, Haber, Ehrlich, Warburg…

  125. 125
    MagdaInBlack says:

    One of my fave things to do, when I had friends in the city, was to just pick a neighborhood and explore… plan, just see what there is to see. How boring would Chicago be without her diverse neighborhoods?
    How boring would the Shedd be with only one kind of fish?

  126. 126
    JAFD says:

    @๐Ÿ‡บ๐Ÿ‡ธ๐ŸŒŽ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)ย  ๐Ÿ—ณ๐ŸŒท: There was a science fiction novel I read, in the ’80’s sometime, had hero’s great xX grandkids get time machine back to visit him. He sez ‘Welcome’, offers to take them for drive around, as he opens the door of his Buick, they say
    “Wait a second – YOU’RE ACTUALLY BURNING PETROLEUM ?!?!?!?”

  127. 127

    When we lived in Detroit, I thought all the talk about the greatness of diversity was just a way to try to get the racists to behave. After all, diversity can be annoying. People play music you don’t like, speak to one another in a language you don’t know, live at a different volume and pace. Then we moved to Iowa, and I realized diversity really is great. Just for daily living, you get better art, entertainment, food, and ideas.

    Interestingly enough, my subdivision is Iowa was more diverse than the Chicago suburb/senior citizens community I now live in, mostly because all the immigrant doctors, engineers, and professors (such as they were) lived near me.

  128. 128
    Sliggy says:

    Diversity also means that there are less sacred cows. In a homogeneous culture there is a tendenancy to have several areas that are untouchable due to sacred cowness. In a diverse society there are going to less items that attain the highest level of sacredness and even so, less enthusiasm to preserving those that are there as they are not generally universally shared in the society.

    This matters because these culture will evolve and indeed take big leaps forward which we have seen continually throughout the history of the US. Cultural homogeneity lessens the propensity to change, having more institutional blockage.

  129. 129
    J R in WV says:

    @Goku(aka Amerikan Baka):

    Diversity means Fucker Carlson is less noticeable, less influential, more insignificant, and continuously inaccurate. Fewer people will have to be aware of his meandering polemics.

    Plus the kind of food he likes will be less available, because better food from elsewhere will force it out of the marketplace, whereupon he will have to eat diverse food, or Spam. Entertainment of Fucker Carlson will have to be provided by people who do not look like, sound like, believe like Carlson, or he will have to just sit there bored — so sad. He would have to root for Black, Brown, Asian athletes and politicians, singers, actors. Or not watch TV at all.

    I search out diversity here, which even though it is a mostly white ordinary-American kind of place, has Indian and Thai and Japanese restaurants, and where I went to see Buddy Guy last night. With white people and Black people cheering him as he sang about diversity and freedom!

    Tucker Fucker Carlson is a dim-witted slow ignoramus with a tiny black shard of pure evil in his heart.

  130. 130
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Amir Khalid: Bangalore! As one of my friends of the Hebraic persuasion likes to say, Remember when we weren’t white?

    We aren’t quite that old ourselves, but my father sure could. As a young & very athletic fellow (so the stories go) his response to anyone who called him dago or wop was You’d better be smiling when you say that.

    Eventually we were Godfathered into more-or-less honorary membership into the MD2 (Malevolent Defenders of Melanin Deficiency) – and now as a group, italoamericani are IMHO the worst racists on the continent. I guess it’s a case of “last one aboard pulls the ladder up behind them.”

  131. 131
    low-tech cyclist says:


    Can you think of other institutions, such as marriage…in which the less people have in common, the more cohesive they are?

    This one’s in my wheelhouse. How about family, Tucker?

    We adopted our son from Russia several years back, and we figured at the time that because any connection between his genes and ours was completely random, he’d bring a lot of new stuff to our family.

    And it’s proven true. My wife and I are math geeks, while math is the kid’s worst subject. (He gets by with B’s, but he will never love math. And that’s fine.) But he’s incredibly artistic, he’s a good writer, he’s in the band, he was terrific in the school play last spring – a totally different mix of talents than my wife and I have. And I can’t tell you how much it enriches our lives. Would I rather that we’d had a kid whose interests and talents were the same as ours? Hell, no!

    So fuck yeah, diversity, even at the level of a family unit. And kindly fuck off, Tucker.

  132. 132
    Barbara says:

    @low-tech cyclist: Lack of genetic diversity can create obvious problems for small, cohesive populations. E.g., the Amish. The final step in the process of fertilization is a mixing of genetic material that is primed to result in someone who is different from their parents. There is a good chance that had you and your wife had a biologically related child, he/she also would not have been a math geek. It is my own view that what we call the advantage of diversity is really more the advantage of being continually replenished with a generation of strivers who come to the U.S. because they think it rewards striving. They also tend to be ethnically diverse — AS THEY ALWAYS HAVE BEEN, since at least the 1840s. My grandfather came to a rural part of Minnesota round 1900 and my dad felt like he was the victim of ethnic prejudice in his high school for a long time. Swarthy, hard to pronounce name, weird religious rituals, relatives who couldn’t speak English well — and that was just one prior generation to someone like me, who is beset by none of that. People like Carlson must have inhabited some weird imaginary parallel America that I have never seen.

  133. 133
    low-tech cyclist says:

    There is a good chance that had you and your wife had a biologically related child, he/she also would not have been a math geek.

    No doubt about it. But without wanting to get into a nature v. nurture debate, I would have expected the chance of our hypothetical natural child being a math geek to be somewhat better than random, though way less than certainty.

    I agree with you about the source of our advantage due to diversity – as Jefferson said back in 1776, “all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed,” and we humans are also more disposed to suffer than to right ourselves by picking up and moving hundreds or thousands of miles to a strange country where we’d have to start from scratch, including having to learn a new language. So we get the cream of the crop of other countries, the ones who aren’t willing to put up with things as they are, but will take great risks to improve their lot.

    But I figured that that was an easy argument to make, and without reading through the thread, I figured someone had surely made it. But since Tucker decided to bring up the benefits of diversity to extremely small groups, including marriages, my personal experience had particular relevance. (Didn’t even need to reach back to my grandparents, only one of whom was an American at birth.)

  134. 134
    cmorenc says:

    If the same question Tucker Carlson posed was asked in good-faith, it would represent a legitimate challenge to us to frame an articulate, reasoned answer explaining why diversity is good for society. Actually, even though it’s asked in bad-faith by Carlson, it’s much better for us to be able to come up with an articulate explanation than simply accusing Carlson of being the racist pig he is. We can start by easily pointing out the many examples of constructive contributions made to this country by people of diverse ethnic and national origins beyond just from northern Europe and go from there.

  135. 135
    Brachiator says:

    Diversity is the fact of the United States. Carlson has to indulge in an act of fantasy in order to muse about a non-diverse America. You might as well ask, what would fish be like if oceans were made of air instead of water.

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