Donald Trump’s Trade War Will Kill Us All

Trump slaps tariffs on China, and China retaliates.

One of the classes of item that the Trumpies have been thinking of putting tariffs on is medical supplies.

So far, none of those medical products have landed on the final tariff lists. But lower-level trade negotiations with China concluded on Thursday with few signs of progress, increasing the likelihood of additional tariffs.

The United States relies on China not only for H7N9 influenza samples but for medical supplies, such as plastic drip mechanisms for intravenous saline, as well as ingredients for certain oncology and anesthesia drugs. Some of these are delivered through a just-in-time production model; there are no stockpiles, which could prove dangerous if the supply was disrupted, health officials said.

Can you say cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face? Yes, you can.

The most concerning of that very concerning list is the H7N9 influenza samples. China is where people and animals trade influenza viruses most frequently, and increasing cases of H7N9 influenza have been reported. It is not very transmissible at this point, but influenza viruses mutate rapidly, and exchange between people and animals facilitates that mutation. So it’s important for multiple laboratories to be looking at as many H7N9 samples as possible.

China has been sticky about providing samples in the past, and this round of non-sharing precedes Trump’s easy-to-win trade war. But the trade war is making it worse.

168 replies
  1. 1
    Ryan says:

    Doesn’t Puerto Rico provide us with a lot of our medical supplies too? I remember reading about that at the time of the hurricane. How strange.

  2. 2
    Doug R says:

    This offshoring of medical supplies seems very shortsighted to me. Considering how disasters can make an area inaccessible for a week or more, having supplies closer would seem to be a smart idea.

  3. 3
    Gravenstone says:

    China is also a major source of specialty and commodity chemicals. We use Chinese sources for our custom synthesis work, many of whose products feed into an assortment of pre-clinical or clinical drug candidates. So this potentially impacts future treatments as well as current ones.

  4. 4 says:

    Trade war or War war
    He’ll murder us all

  5. 5
    Mnemosyne says:

    Well, it’s not like rich people have to worry about a massive influenza epidemic hitting them. They can just wall themselves off like Prince Prospero in “The Masque of the Red Death,” right?

    Wait, hang on a sec … (flips to end of story) … oh, crap.

  6. 6
  7. 7
    trnc says:

    The obvious solution is to give the Koch Bros a no-bid multibillion dollar contract to manufacture a couple of weeks worth.of saline drips. Couple it with deregulation of sterility standards to make it worth their while.

  8. 8
    Calouste says:

    @Ryan: Puerto Rico used yes, until the hurricane. There have been shortages ever since. The hospital where Mrs. Calouste works has been having daily meetings to address shortages of various supplies and meds for a year now.

  9. 9
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    This asshole without a doubt will go down in history as the worst US President.

  10. 10
    Dan B says:

    My father had the Spanish Flu as a 6 year old. He was sick for months. He was sent to Alabama from Chicago because they thought the cold weather would kill him. He had a mastoid (sinus cavity adjacent the ear) infection for years. We learned a lot about the flu as kids. It’s funny how having direct experience affects a family / community when data has no impact.

  11. 11
    Mnemosyne says:


    As Mrs. Calouste has probably been telling you, there have been shortages for years now. When G was still in healthcare 3 years ago, saline shortages were already happening. I’m assuming it’s even worse now.

  12. 12
  13. 13
    debbie says:

    His statement today, “We’re going to tariff Canada,” almost made my head explode..

  14. 14
    boatboy_srq says:

    Won’t matter. Lord Dampnut already declared war on US healthcare.

  15. 15
    raven says:

    Anybody get the new shingles vaccine?

  16. 16
    Elizabelle says:

    Think I will stay out of this thread. It’s all just too depressing, and stupid, stupid, stupid.

  17. 17
    boatboy_srq says:

    @Doug R: Have we not agreed we should not expect intelligent decisions from this maladministration?

  18. 18
    MagdaInBlack says:

    😄 yeah, gosh darn it all…

  19. 19
    Jay says:


    “But in truth, “here” is pretty close to where we were before.

    There is still no signed Mexico deal. And, unfortunately for Trump, he does not actually have authority from Congress to split NAFTA into two separate bilateral deals.”

    Wonkette has the inside baseball,

    Hair Shitler is either trying to gaslight the Gullibillies into believing he got something done after the week from hell,

    Or Hair Shitlers Moron Minions are trying to gaslight the boss into believing something got done after the week from hell.

  20. 20
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @raven: I’m signed up to get it at work in about three weeks. My PCP said “do it.”

  21. 21
    Patricia Kayden says:

    I swear to heavens that this idiot is going to get us all killed because his ego is out of control and he lacks the sense of a gnat. November can’t come quickly enough.

  22. 22
    debbie says:


    My doc recommends it based on the tests/studies, but she hasn’t received it yet. They have to go through their supply of the old stuff before they can order the new vaccine.

  23. 23
    debbie says:


    P.S. She likes it because it’s a dead virus, unlike the previous version.

  24. 24
    TenguPhule says:


    They can just wall themselves off like Prince Prospero in “The Masque of the Red Death,” right?

    Actually Trump currently receives top priority for any care, so yes, yes he can.

    The rest of us are on our own.

  25. 25
    raven says:

    @debbie: My wife got the first one and it hurt!

  26. 26
    TenguPhule says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    This asshole without a doubt will go down in history as the worst US President.

    Assuming there’s anyone left able to remember when this is all over.

  27. 27
    debbie says:


    The pneumonia one hurt a lot too. I’ll take the pain if the shit works. I couldn’t get the first one because it was supposed to screw up autoimmune issues.

  28. 28
    Elizabelle says:

    @Mnemosyne: You know, it feels like we are living through the runup to “Masque of the Red Death”, or the Decameron. Or anxiety as dangers approach. (Climate change. The emergence of long-gone pathogens.)

    About to get shaken out of our comfort zones, and our isolation, many of us.

  29. 29
    trollhattan says:

    Not the latest but got the other one last year. Hurt like a motherfucker and I’m not generally bothered by needles and such. Still, watching my granny suffer from shingles on and off for decades, I took the hit.

  30. 30
    Yarrow says:

    @raven: I think if you’ve had the old vaccine you can’t get the news one, but good to double check on that.

  31. 31
    Patricia Kayden says:


    Hair Shitler is either trying to gaslight the Gullibillies into believing he got something done after the week from hell,

    Does this even matter? Since it doesn’t matter what Trump does when it comes to the support of his deplorable base, why does Trump do anything at all? He could play golf 24/7 or spend his entire days on Twitter and they’d still lap up his claims of astounding “accomplishments”. The good thing is that the majority of us aren’t being fooled and we vote.

  32. 32
    raven says:

    @trollhattan: I had the last one too. Reminded me of the gamagobulin (sp?) we got before shipping out. I got shingles on my forehead and in my eye while I was finishing my diss. Part of the treatment was to avoid stress!

  33. 33
    raven says:

    @Yarrow: OOO, I will.

  34. 34
    raven says:

    Should you get Shingrix if you’ve already had the Zostavax shot?

    Yes. The CDC recommends that you get the Shingrix vaccine if you’ve already had Zostavax, because it’s more effective than the older vaccine and the protection lasts longer. Wait at least 2 months after you have Zostavax to get Shingrix.

  35. 35
    Platonailedit says:

    But, but … this ‘incredible deal’ with Mexico?

  36. 36
    oatler. says:

    25th amendment come on down! with extreme prejudice.

  37. 37
    Nelle says:

    I had the old shot several years ago. I’ve had one and two of the new ones. I had to pay out of pocket, but I have a strong fear of shingles.

  38. 38
    Platonailedit says:

    fugly vid warning.

    Can't stop watching Trump trying to get the President of Mexico on speakerphone. (via CBS)

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) August 27, 2018

  39. 39
    Yarrow says:

    @raven: Maybe it’s the waiting part I remember. I talked to a doctor about it but it has been awhile and I can’t remember the exact conversation.

  40. 40
    VOR says:

    @Dan B: I just finished reading a book about the 1918 Spanish Flu epidemic. It killed more people than World War 1, a full 3-5% of the world’s population. Some places has mortality rates above 40%. Normal flu kills off the old and weak, this thing killed young people in their 20-30s. Note: It didn’t actually begin in Spain but since Spain wasn’t part of their war and their press wasn’t controlled the first press articles happened in Spain.

    I can’t imagine how the Trump Administration would handle a major public health crisis. Look at how they messed up Puerto Rico and yet Trump gave himself an A+ grade.

  41. 41
    Jay says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    The Gullibillies, Deplorables need to be told, just like the NoDeal Korean Deal. The illusion needs to be done outside twitter and the KKKlan KKKonnventions.

  42. 42
    Elizabelle says:

    @VOR: Was it Gina Kolata’s book?

  43. 43
    Mnemosyne says:


    Re-read … As the Band Played On. Getting top-notch care after contracting a deadly virus only takes you so far.

    Remember, those US healthcare workers survived Ebola because there’s a well-established protocol for treating it that’s been in place for 20+ years. Now picture an unknown virus with an equally unknown transmission pattern and incubation period and tell me that there’s no way Trump or the Kochs could possibly catch it or that they’re guaranteed to survive it. Roy Cohn thought he was rich enough to survive AIDS.

    IANAD, but I know how to read and I understand why medical authorities are freaking out about this stuff.

  44. 44
    VOR says:

    @Elizabelle: No, “Pale Rider: The Spanish Flu of 1918 and How It Changed the World” by Laura Spinney

  45. 45
    TenguPhule says:


    But, but … this ‘incredible deal’ with Mexico?

    “We agree in principle that Mexican cars should be 75% made in North America.”

    That’s it. That’s the big agreement buried in the details of his announcement.

    Nothing else has been agreed on and the rest of NAFTA remains in a limbo.

  46. 46
    TenguPhule says:


    I can’t imagine how the Trump Administration would handle a major public health crisis.

    One word.


  47. 47
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Ryan: Just personnally experienced the effects of the national shortage of IV bags due to the yet unaddressed damage in Puerto Rico. Fortunately it was not life or death for me. Just a procedure more likely to cause side effects (it did) if administered by alternate means. We’re already dealing with shortages and Trump wants to make it worse.

  48. 48
    Elizabelle says:

    @VOR: Ah, thank you. Will look into that one.

    It seemed to me like the Spanish Flu went down a memory hole. Barely covered in history classes, because there was so much about WWI, and the League of Nations. and the Depression …. and the Spanish Flu took so many people, young and healthy too, so rapidly. No avoiding it. One great-aunt lost her young husband to it. And then — silence. We talked of polio, but not of the Spanish Flu.

  49. 49
    Ohio Mom says:

    Every now and then I become amazed, in a sort of aesthetic way, at how extensive the damage Trump is doing. It’s like those moments when you stand at the ocean’s edge or look up at the Milky Way, and are overwhelmed how big the universe is and how small you are.

    In these moments I am not angry at Trump or the people who made (and continue to make) him possible, or fearful of the future he is creating, or newly inspired to resist, I am just quietly stunned at how totally pervasive the damage he is doing is. It really is incredible, the scale of it all. This is one of those moments.

  50. 50
    zhena gogolia says:

    @raven: @raven:

    My arm was sore for several days, and I got dead tired every afternoon for four days. Not looking forward to the second one.

  51. 51
    TenguPhule says:


    Now picture an unknown virus with an equally unknown transmission pattern and incubation period and tell me that there’s no way Trump or the Kochs could possibly catch it or that they’re guaranteed to survive it. Roy Cohn thought he was rich enough to survive AIDS.

    Unless transmission vectors include teleporting agents, the odds of Trump or the Kochs getting infected are slim. Their distain for the general public works for them in this instance.

  52. 52
    Thoughtful David says:

    @TenguPhule: Ten-to-one odds he doesn’t know that Mexico is North America. That’s why a) it’s called the “North American Free Trade Agreement” and b) why he thinks “US-Mexico Trade Agreement” would be a better name.

  53. 53
    Elizabelle says:

    @VOR: If the public health crisis takes out Pence first, and then Trump, I could possibly see the hand of the Lord in that. After we prevail in the midterms.

    Otherwise … I would bet those who have made a career out of public health are plenty concerned. We should figure out if there are any good blogs and websites on that topic …. or perhaps not. Already enough Trumpsomnia.

    Heard the word Trumplorables today. It’s a keeper.

  54. 54
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @raven: Yes. Had no problems with it.

  55. 55
    Mike in NC says:

    The trade war with Canada will be epic. Imagine them boycotting US companies until the layoffs start.

  56. 56
    Jay says:


    Nope. They are surrounded by people, and those people are also surrounded by people, and many of those people are poor.

    They arn’t isolated individuals at all, not like a trapper in a cabin some where or Howard holed up in a hotel suite.

    They just don’t notice all those people around them because they are lessor’s.

  57. 57
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @raven: Damn. I got it on my eye when I was writing my Master’s thesis. Not fun.

  58. 58
    jl says:

    @TenguPhule: There is a little bit more than that

    ” Under the changes agreed to by Mexico and the United States, car companies would be required to manufacture at least 75 percent of an automobile’s value in North America under the new rules, up from 62.5 percent, to qualify for Nafta’s zero tariffs. They will also be required to use more local steel, aluminum and auto parts, and have 40 to 45 percent of the car made by workers earning at least $16 an hour, a boon to both the United States and Canada and a win for labor unions, which have been among Nafta’s biggest critics. ”


    ” One contentious issue that remains unresolved is whether the administration will exempt Mexico from its steel and aluminum tariffs. Mr. Trump hit Mexico, along with Canada, the European Union and other nations, with 25 percent tariffs on steel and 10 percent tariffs on aluminum, in part to force concessions on other trade issues. Mexican officials said they expected the tariffs to be addressed down the road. ”

    Also, limited right of corporations to sue sovereign governments for violations, but with exemptions to industries that are most likely to use it (fossil fuels and telecoms) But, it’s not a final deal yet, so not sure why Trump is making a good deal about it, especially since he is threatening to ‘tariff’ Canada.

    Thing is, Obama administration successfully completed a an actual real negotiation of NAFTA that would address many complaints of US workers, but it was tied to TPP, so went down when Trump nixed TPP (I forget where I read that). Trump could just have started by using that as a platform. But looks like he didn’t.

  59. 59
    raven says:

    @Gelfling 545: I was lucky, it didn’t damage my vision but it was close.

  60. 60
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in NC:

    The trade war with Canada will be epic. Imagine them boycotting US companies until the layoffs start.

    Started July 3rd. The boycotts are already in progress and hurting cross border trade. Canadians are reportedly boycotting American products where it hurts. Food, non-food animal parts, manufactured goods, etc.

  61. 61
    Anotherlurker says:

    @Elizabelle: I will as soon as I’m cleared to. I was diagnosed with Shingles in early June. After 1.5 months on my back, I’m better, but I still have symptoms, including fatigue, itching and burning on my eye and occasional flu-like symptoms. Doc says these symptoms can continue for months or longer.
    Shingles is not something I ever want to experience again.

  62. 62
    jl says:

    @Mike in NC: I’ll stock up on Nanaimo bars, and ketchup potato chips.

  63. 63


    Normal flu kills off the old and weak, this thing killed young people in their 20-30s.

    Yes. The flu normally kills by directly killing your cells, resulting in pneumonia. That’s most dangerous to people who have weakened immune systems that can’t protect them from the virus. In the really deadly outbreaks, it can cause a “cytokine storm”, which is basically a massive immune response that can cause tissue damage far beyond what the virus causes directly. That excessive immune response is most dangerous in people with healthy immune systems rather than defective ones.

  64. 64


    I can’t imagine how the Trump Administration would handle a major public health crisis.

    Panic and incompetence would be the smart bet.

  65. 65
    Mnemosyne says:


    You think that Trump and the Kochs cook their own food and clean their own houses? Yeah, right.

  66. 66
    Elizabelle says:

    @Anotherlurker: My sympathies. My dad suffered with shingles one summer; he was stoic but it sounds horrible. A prof cancelled a class I was really looking forward to (History of the American West), due to shingles many years ago. She knew she would be out for an extended period.

    I hope you are feeling so much better, soon.

  67. 67
    Anotherlurker says:

    @Elizabelle: I’m sorry for the out of the blue response, Elizabelle, I clicked on Reply to your comment instead of Raven’s, the preceeding one.
    What have I learned from this? Wear my f’n glasses, when responding.

  68. 68
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @raven: Have been told it’s much better. IIRC it’s given in 2 parts 6 months apart?

  69. 69
    Anotherlurker says:

    @Elizabelle: I have good days and bad days. The Redtide here in Fl. isn’t helping, either.
    BTW, thanks for your good wishes.

  70. 70
    rikyrah says:

    @Ohio Mom:
    It is in these moments that my resolve to never forgive those who made this happen hardens.

  71. 71
    jl says:

    @Roger Moore: pandemic flue is very unpredictable and dangerous. Something happened between 1917 and 1918 that made the flue particularly lethal for young adults. Some researchers think related to evolution of flue during mass transmission among troops at end of WWI.

    China has been reluctant to share samples in the past. It is not a bilateral thing with the US, so hopefully Trump’s BS can be kept out of it. There are international agreements for sharing with World Health Organization.

  72. 72
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @debbie: Here we don’t get it from dr, we get it from pharmwcy where we get rest of our prescription meds.

  73. 73
    jl says:

    @jl: meant ‘flu’, not ‘flu’ I think autocorrect is adding an ‘e’? Not sure. I am a slob, so might be just me.

  74. 74
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne: Much of what Trump eats only qualifies as food due to a very liberal definition of such.

  75. 75
    Gravenstone says:

    @TenguPhule: Even the elite need guards and food preparation/acquistion. Lots of ‘common folk’ on the near periphery.

  76. 76
    Citizen_X says:

    Issues like access to the H7N9 influenza samples are why nowadays I get furious at anti-“globalization” talk, whether from the right or the left. We have a global civilization, idiots, how can we not be “globalized?”

  77. 77
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @debbie: Nurse wouldn’t give it because I was taking methatrexate for rheumatiod arthritis. My arthritis dr said there was no problem. Such fun!

  78. 78
    debbie says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: @Ladyraxterinok:

    We also have that option here. I would rather give my doctor the business than CVS.

  79. 79
    Mnemosyne says:


    A virus doesn’t care if it’s being transmitted on a chateaubriand or a Big Mac. It just rides along to its destination.

  80. 80
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @oatler.: Oh FFS. For what must be the 13,672nd time: I urge yinz to read the goddamn Amendment. with especial attention to Article 4 It requires

    the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, [to] transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, [at which point] the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

    However, if the sitting POTUS claims no such disability exists, s/he recovers the powers of office unless a 2/3 vote in both the House and the Senate, taken within 3-4 weeks, that POTUS is unable to discharge etc etc etc.

    IOW, a Presidential-level Goat Rodeo.

    It would be easier (i.e., requires fewer votes – simple majority in the House, 2/3 in the Senate) to impeach the sumbidge.

  81. 81
    Mary G says:

    Heh heh heh:

    Boston, MA (August 27, 2018) — A new Emerson College e-Poll finds the US Senate race neck
    and neck with Senator Ted Cruz at 38% and US Rep Beto O’Rourke at 37%; 4% are voting for
    someone else and 21% were undecided.

    The same poll has the governor 20 points ahead in his race for re-election, so this is personal with Ted.

  82. 82
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: “…within 3-4 weeks, declares that POTUS…”
    “…to impeach and remove the sumbidge.”

    Ah, for those thrilling days of yesteryear, when an Edit function walked the blog….

  83. 83
    debbie says:


    Yikes! My doc also says treating shingles is very effective if started quickly. I may hold off getting it; getting both vaccines just seems like too much.

  84. 84
    Platonailedit says:

    There is zero chance Trump does not insult McCain within the next 48 hours. Zero chance.

    — God (@TheTweetOfGod) August 26, 2018

    And the traitorous thug proved god right.

  85. 85
    jl says:

    @Mary G: ” this is personal with Ted. ”
    I’ve heard Ted likes to feel special. So, sounds like a win for him, then.

  86. 86
    Jay says:


    It’s also a vaguely worded 3 page, unsigned Memorandum of Understanding,

    It needs to be expanded into formal regulation, signed by both Presidents and ratified by both Congresses,

    The current Mexican President tried to ‘splain to Dolt 45 4 time in the call that Canada had to be included and agree,

    The incoming Mexican President doesn’t agree to the MOU and takes office in December.

  87. 87
    jl says:

    @Jay: If Trump weren’t so messed up, he could have just resurrected the Obama NAFTA renegotiation from the TPP, and make a few changes, and claim credit for an actual deal. But that probably actually did too much to help US and Mexican workers, and environmental protections with some teeth, so not ‘the best’ in Trump’s view.

  88. 88
    Tokyokie says:

    @Mary G: Well, it’s also a case that Beto has been much better at increasing his name recognition outside of his El Paso-area congressional district than former Dallas County Sheriff Lupe Valdez has been. (In fact, I had to look up Abbott’s opponent as I have not seen or heard Valdez’s name since I voted for her in the primary and I had forgotten it.)

  89. 89
    Jay says:


    Naw, TPP got signed and agreed to because Dolt 45 pulled out and with out US obstructionism, a better deal was signed.

    President Obama’s NAFTA section of the TPP was only “passable” in the greater context of the TPP.


  90. 90
    Dan B says:

    @VOR: Yep. There’s a great deal of history about the Spanish flu, that probably originated in Kansas and mutated overseas. Us kids got every vaccination as soon as it was possible. Since my parents were born before antibiotics they’d grown up with death and disfigurement. They wanted nothing to do with preventable disease.

    I had the Hong Kong flu as a child, was delirious for hours. It was anither killer but mostly of the old and infants.

    One Spanish flu theory is that people older than 30 had gotten a flu that granted immunity. I don’t believe that’s been proven.

  91. 91

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    It would be easier (i.e., requires fewer votes – simple majority in the House, 2/3 in the Senate) to impeach the sumbidge.

    The vote totals are higher for impeachment than for removal by the 25th Amendment, but the politics would be different. The key is that the rest of the Republican party is complicit in most of the wrongdoings that would justify impeaching Trump, so they have to resist it as a matter of self-preservation. The 25th Amendment would give them an out. They could pretend that whatever disability they were using to justify removing him from power was new, so there wouldn’t be any bad reflection on them for getting rid of him.

  92. 92
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @debbie: Trump loves Russia and is cool with North Korea but hates Canada. Go figure.

  93. 93
    Jay says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    The Toronto pried the gold letters off the building.

  94. 94
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I finally figured out what trump wrestling with the speakerphone– “Enrique…? Hello…?”– reminds me of. It’s Peter Sellers as the president in Dr Strangelove. “Dmitri…. Dmitri…. Of course I call just to say hallo…. Dmitri….”

  95. 95
    Dan B says:

    @TenguPhule: There chances may be lower but there are a lot of poorly paid people prepping food and those crowds at his pep rallies should be wearing masks, walking through footbaths, and getting their hands swabbed with antiseptic.

  96. 96
    Redshift says:


    The obvious solution is to give the Koch Bros a no-bid multibillion dollar contract to manufacture a couple of weeks worth.of saline drips. Couple it with deregulation of sterility standards to make it worth their while.

    Just as likely, they’d keep barely adequate sterility standards but introduce “surge” pricing. Hey, what good is on-demand production of not for price gouging?

  97. 97
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @debbie: I’ll probably go to CVS for my flu shot this year as I dont see my pcp until December and ANOTHER medical appointment is just more than I care to do right now. I’ve done it there before with no problems.

  98. 98
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Except that the president of Mexico is the sensible one in the Trump version of the scene.

  99. 99
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Ladyraxterinok: Less than six months. Mine are scheduled for Sep 19 and Dec 4.

  100. 100
    Zelma says:

    @Mike in NC:
    There is already a boycott of a sort by Canadians. I live in a resort area that is usually crawling with Canadian (mostly Quebecois) campers all summer. This year there seemed to be many fewer. Why would Canadians put themselves through the horror that crossing the border entails? I know that reservations were down in many campgrounds. This will hurt;

  101. 101
    trnc says:

    @Redshift: Not to mention the added bonus of getting the politicization of catheterization courtesy of Hannity, etc.

  102. 102
    Felanius Kootea says:

    OT: My husband and I walked by Elizabeth Warren at Washington National Airport today on our way back to LA. I managed a “Hi! Elizabeth Warren!” because she probably needs strangers to remind her what her name is from time to time and my husband chimed in helpfully, “2020!” She smiled, but I wish I’d had the presence of mind to commend her on her recent proposals and ask her to press on with her financial reform proposals in particular (workers electing some corporate board members, etc., etc). She is waaay skinnier than I realized – it all happened so fast!

  103. 103
    trnc says:

    @Gelfling 545: Yup, I’ve gotten flu shots from CVS a few times, no problem. I got one at Rite-Aid last year, and I wouldn’t have known she gave it to me if I hadn’t been watching.

  104. 104
    Brachiator says:

    I was listening to a BBC interview with a Robert Kelly, who suggested that Trump was confusing China. He wants to keep punching, but is actually unclear as to what he wants from China. And China does not fear him. They can respond with their own tariffs and also play the North Korea card. Trump ssems ineffectual and stupid and is hurting the country more than he is helping.

    Kelly suggests that China would be willing to make concessions if Trump had a clear idea of his foreign policy and trade objectives. Instead we get this empty display of force which only impresses the dumbest rubes back home.

  105. 105
    trnc says:

    @Felanius Kootea: Well, she probably realizes that anyone who knows her name and isn’t hurling some invective is a supporter. Now you have the opportunity to send her a non-rushed message with your comments. You might even be able to work in an airport comment, although it might be tough to do that without sounding stalkerish.

  106. 106
  107. 107
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Roger Moore: And every frackin’ Congresscritter with an (R) after its name who voted in favor of sideliining Twitler via the 25th Amendment would put his/herself in the (metaphorical) crosshairs of the Trumplorable base. Not. Gonna. Happen.

  108. 108

    @Brachiator: Kelly is a smart commenter on China and Korea.

  109. 109

    @trnc: I love his daughter. But he is careful to keep the door to his office closed when he does interviews now.

  110. 110
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @TenguPhule: They got *servants*. Poorly-paid servants. Those people cook their food, clean their toilets, change their bedding, care for their descendants during childhood. Must demur: they’re just as vulnerable as anybody else.

  111. 111
    tobie says:

    @raven: I got the two installments of the new shingles vaccines. It does hurt, and unfortunately the second time is worse than the first. I had a huge, burning welt the second time for 2-3 weeks. The good news is that it does pass, and after that you have something like a 97% protection rate. So just tell your wife to grit her teeth and bear it. I actually forgot about the discomfort until you asked about the vaccine, which means the vaccine is worth whatever temporary irritation.

  112. 112
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Natasha Bertrand @ NatashaBertrand
    Roger Stone says in an Instagram video that a story is coming in The New Yorker which says Stone explicitly told Trump in October 2016 that WikiLeaks had/was going to dump the Podesta emails.

    I think this is another Ronan Farrow story. MSNBC fired him as part of its campaign to return to “hard news”. The hour he anchored (admittedly, not very well) is now given over to Andrea Mitchell talking about John McCain with people she socialized with

  113. 113
    Platonailedit says:

    A federal court has ruled for the 2nd time this year that North Carolina's congressional map was drawn to so severely benefit Republicans it violates the Constitution.

    The ruling raises the potential of drawing new congressional districts before November.

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) August 28, 2018

    2nd time? What happened to the 1st ruling?

  114. 114
    raven says:

    @tobie: Yea, we’ll both suck it up.

  115. 115
    Ohio Mom says:

    @rikyrah: Oh, I have plenty of those moments too, and a list of people I know who voted for Trump I will never forgive (though I already didn’t forgive them for their Bush votes, and stopped talking to a good number of them then).

    And I have moments when I am completely discouraged, and moments when I am raring to go.

    But these moments of being stunned in a neutral way, they are weird.

  116. 116
    trnc says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: The whole thing is pretty funny, but the infant who rolls in with the walker is probably going to be a Nobel Prize winner.

  117. 117
    jl says:

    @Brachiator: Trump is obsessed with meaningless bilateral trade statistics, and has no clue what he is doing. Trump’s jiggering with the US economy (tax cut will make it almost impossible for the total US trade deficit to go down, it will probably increase substantially.

    China has to face the fact that Trump has no clue what he is doing, and his words and deeds make no sense. I can’t imagine it soon won’t.

  118. 118
    Platonailedit says:

    In WTF news from NY AG.

    The bad news is that, through an inadvertent loophole in New York law, Trump can use a strategically timed pardon to block a state prosecution. This is because New York law goes far beyond what is required by the U.S. Constitution, by generally prohibiting state prosecutors from trying a defendant “based on the same act or criminal transaction” as a prior federal prosecution — and therefore could unintentionally insulate someone pardoned by the President from subsequent prosecution for state crimes.

    Our double jeopardy law is one of the broadest in the nation. That’s why, since April, we’ve been urging the state Legislature to take action to close this “presidential pardon” loophole.

    A bill to do just that, introduced earlier this year by Assemblyman Joe Lentol and Sen. Kaminsky, has the support of legal experts, criminal justice advocates and editorial boards around the state; last week, Gov. Cuomo pledged to sign the bill if it passes.

    The state Legislature adjourned for the session without taking up this bill. But in light of recent events, it’s more urgent than ever that the Legislature act. Both senators and Assembly members must come back now to ensure that Trump’s abuse of his pardon power does not allow anyone who has violated New York’s criminal laws to avoid facing justice in New York’s courts.

    What ratfuckery is going on here?

  119. 119
    trnc says:


    What happened to the 1st ruling?

    Same thing. That’s why they were redrawing the maps this time (again).

  120. 120
    Ruckus says:

    Not an unreasonable fear to be honest.
    Had shingles on my face and neck. The vaccine, even if it hurts for a couple of days can not be as bad as shingles. And this is from a guy who gets pains regularly that run in to the 7-8 level and have had migraines that run that dial right on up to 11. I’ve also had to take massive antibiotics for an infection I got at a hospital that made it almost impossible to walk or sit for 3 days. (I’d bet you get where that shot was given) The nurse had to mix the two parts for about 15 minutes before she could give me that hit of concrete.
    Yeah singles are fun! Get the damn shot.

  121. 121
    Timurid says:


    And Darkness and Decay and the Orange Death held illimitable dominion over all.

  122. 122
    Ruckus says:

    Brown people died, of course shitgibbon would give himself an A+ for that.

  123. 123
    trnc says:


    China has to face the fact that Trump has no clue what he is doing, and his words and deeds make no sense.

    My guess is that they are well aware of this but acknowledging it would be giving up a strategic advantage.

  124. 124
    Mnemosyne says:


    Giving shots and drawing blood are underrated skills because they SEEM like they should be easy to do. Some people are good at it and some people are just bad.

  125. 125
    TenguPhule says:

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    And every frackin’ Congresscritter with an (R) after its name who voted in favor of sideliining Twitler via the 25th Amendment would put his/herself in the (metaphorical) crosshairs of the Trumplorable base.

    Given what we know about them, not so metaphorical.

  126. 126
    NotMax says:

    Because we need it, the splendiferous Randy Rainbow.

  127. 127
    Brachiator says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: That Kelly? His kids were so cute.

    He gave a very good, clear interview.

  128. 128
    tobie says:

    @Platonailedit: Will the Republicans appeal this decision just to tie the case up in court till after the 2018 elections? I guess they figure they can take it to the Supreme Court, where Kavanaugh and Gorsuch will no doubt say Republican gerrymanders are a-okay. Not a day goes by when I’m not reminded of how much I hate Anthony Kennedy.

  129. 129
    tobie says:

    @Ruckus: I agree. Get the vaccine. The discomfort is nothing compared to shingles.

  130. 130

    @Brachiator: If you’re on Twitter, he’s worth following.

  131. 131
    TenguPhule says:

    Many Trump critics celebrated last week’s legal developments, taking the Manafort conviction and the Cohen guilty plea as signs that the walls may finally be closing in on the lawbreaker in chief. But I felt a sense of deepened dread as I watched the Republican reaction: Faced with undeniable evidence of Trump’s thuggishness, his party closed ranks around him more tightly than ever.

    A year ago it seemed possible that there might be limits to the party’s complicity, that there would come a point where at least a few representatives or senators would say, no more. Now it’s clear that there are no limits: They’ll do whatever it takes to defend Trump and consolidate power.

    K-thug speaks what I’ve been saying for almost 2 years now.

  132. 132
    NotMax says:


    “The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers.”


  133. 133
    Another Scott says:

    @jl: And Canada has 3 days to accept it?!?


    While he was speaking to reporters in the Oval Office, Trump had Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto on speakerphone. After a few technical difficulties establishing the call, Pena Nieto emphasized repeatedly that Canada now needed to join the talks so it could be incorporated into the agreement.

    The Mexican president said that negotiations are now required on “sensitive” bilateral matters between the U.S. and Canada.

    Currently, NAFTA’s agriculture provisions are composed of a series of three bilateral deals, so changes must be renegotiated separately for this chapter, for example.

    U.S. trade representative Robert Lighthizer, who was congratulated by Trump for reaching the deal with Mexico, said they hoped to conclude talks with Canada by Friday in order to comply with the 90-day window required by Congress before a deal could be signed with the outgoing Mexican administration. Pena Nieto leaves office on Dec. 1.


    It also includes new measures on digital trade, financial services and intellectual property — all improvements the U.S. had sought in the Trans-Pacific Partnership — and officials suggested the new provisions exceed those the U.S. negotiated in the TPP, to which both Canada and Mexico were signatories.


    Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland is on government business in Germany, but received updates from both the Americans and the Mexicans throughout the weekend.

    “Given the encouraging announcement today of further bilateral progress between the U.S. and Mexico, Minister Freeland will travel to Washington, D.C., tomorrow to continue negotiations,” said a spokesperson for her office. “We will only sign a new NAFTA that is good for Canada and good for the middle class.”

    “Canada’s signature is required,” Freeland’s office emphasized.

    Guajardo said Sunday that once Canada returns to the table the three parties would need at least another week of negotiations.

    It sounds to me like Canada has to be part of it or the auto part of the agreement falls apart (because so much of car parts and components manufacturing is done in Canada, in addition to the agriculture stuff).

    It’s kinda interesting (to me) that many of the “improvements” were in the TPP that so many (including Donnie) attacked. (Of course, Donnie also made noises in favor of it – he’s always on every side of a policy.)

    It’ll be interesting to see what Canada does – I expect them to refuse to be railroaded by Donnie and his Minions. Will Donnie blow up on Twitter about not getting his way in 3 days?



  134. 134
    Brachiator says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Thanks for the tip. I will try to check Kelly out. I’m not a big Twitter person, but I really appreciated the clarity of his comments.

  135. 135
    TS (the original) says:

    @Mary G:

    The same poll has the governor 20 points ahead in his race for re-election, so this is personal with Ted.

    It also is partly personal with Beto – his name recognition is heading for the skies. Need to to the same with the governor dem – and I have no idea who that might be.

  136. 136
    Chetan Murthy says:

    Well, we knew Jennifer Rubin wasn’t a progressive: The human rights community lost a champion

    Damn, just damn.

    With the possible exception of the U.S. military (including veterans and families), no group was more indebted to Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) than the human rights community. Whether it was Russia, Ukraine, Egypt, Cuba, China or anywhere else on the planet, McCain understood that America must be the friend, protector and advocate of oppressed people. In May 2017, he wrote for the New York Times:

    America didn’t invent human rights. Those rights are common to all people: nations, cultures and religions cannot choose to simply opt out of them.

    Human rights exist above the state and beyond history. They cannot be rescinded by one government any more than they can be granted by another. They inhabit the human heart, and from there, though they may be abridged, they can never be extinguished.

    We are a country with a conscience. We have long believed moral concerns must be an essential part of our foreign policy, not a departure from it. We are the chief architect and defender of an international order governed by rules derived from our political and economic values. We have grown vastly wealthier and more powerful under those rules. More of humanity than ever before lives in freedom and out of poverty because of those rules.

    Our values are our strength and greatest treasure. We are distinguished from other countries because we are not made from a land or tribe or particular race or creed, but from an ideal that liberty is the inalienable right of mankind and in accord with nature and nature’s Creator.

    Jesus. John “Bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb Iran” McCain as a human rights crusader. She goes on to adduce our intervention in Libya as proof of his (and our) human rights bona fides. It’s like some bad remake of a Graham Greene novel.

  137. 137
    NotMax says:

    Mother Nature doesn’t want to give it up. Thunderstorm outside right now.

  138. 138
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @TenguPhule: It doesn’t mean that it will work. As others have been saying for just as long.

  139. 139
    Ruckus says:

    Some are good, some are bad.
    As in everything else.
    However it is something that can be taught and it can be learned by most people. Can also not be fun being on the receiving end of that learning curve. I know because while in boot camp I ran across a corpsman who had just graduated school and said he had never given given anyone a shot or drawn blood. Only practiced on oranges. He stabbed me 3 or 4 times before I asked him to get some help, either with the blood draw or to help pick me up off the floor. He got help, who showed him how and then the newbe actually did a good job. OTOH I had an RN at the VA hospital who I swear stole the ID, there is no way she went to school and came out that bad.

  140. 140
    The Dangerman says:


    I can’t imagine how the Trump Administration would handle a major public health crisis.

    Oooo …. oooo … Mr. Kotter …. oooo …. know this one!

    Find a way to blame Obama and /or Hillary.


  141. 141
    katep says:

    @tobie: I agree. I got both new shingles and pneumonia shots in July. Neither hurt at the time, nurse was really good. Later that evening one arm got very sore and achy, I think it was the shingles arm. Took some ibuprofen, went to bed and all was fine the next day.

  142. 142
    Ruckus says:

    @Chetan Murthy:
    There is a reason, OK several reasons why we didn’t like the guy. Hard to count the ways and not be incensed.
    But remember JR has her profession listed as ball washer for the conservative right. It’s what she does.

  143. 143
    Ruckus says:

    @Another Scott:
    Wanna bet he won’t wait 3 days?

  144. 144
  145. 145
    Jay says:

    @Another Scott:

    It’s not a “deal”, it’s basically an unsigned, 3 page Memo of Understanding with a lot of vague “agreements”.

    A ton of work between the negotiators is needed to turn it into laws, rules and standards.

    The President Elect of Mexico takes office on December 1st, and he’s against the MOU.

  146. 146
    TS (the original) says:


    I can’t imagine how the Trump Administration would handle a major public health crisis

    They would ignore it – as they have ignored any other issue that a normal administration would be forced, by congress, to address.

  147. 147
    Platonailedit says:


    Negotiators want to strike a deal before the newly elected Mexican president, Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador, takes office in December. Mr Obrador has been reluctant to continue Mr Pena Nieto’s opening up of Mexico’s energy sector, which could complicate negotiations.

    In order to meet that deadline, the Trump administration must present the US Congress with a deal at least 90 days in advance – by the end of this month, which is Friday.

    However, President-elect Obrador said on Monday that a two-way agreement with the US was just the first step in a new treaty.

    “We’re very interested in it remaining a three-country deal,” he told journalists on Monday. “The free-trade agreement should remain as it was originally conceived.”

    I wonder how much cash this Nieto guy was promised to sign off on this ‘incredible deal’.

  148. 148
    tobie says:

    @katep: You’re probably due for your second installment of the new shingles shot. I got my second one 8 weeks after the first, I think. Ask your doc, especially as the vaccine is in short supply.

  149. 149
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Chetan Murthy: John McCain’s appearance in Kyiv in December of 2013 was far from universally loved in Ukraine.

  150. 150
    NotMax says:

    Gonna be a chilly reception at the November parade.

    EU ‘can no longer rely on US,’ says France’s Macron.

  151. 151
    Jeffro says:

    Looks like OK Senator James Inhofe (Snowball-bringer) has decided to blame Trumpov’s flag-lowering-raising-lowering issue on…you guessed it…John McCain.

    Craven doesn’t begin to describe this. I look forward to adding a stop on my pee-on-their-graves tour a few years hence. Go long on Anheuser-Busch stock in 2022!!

    Meanwhile, Mollie Tibbets’ family continues to tell the GOP to fuck the hell off. Her dad said he considers Mexican immigrants who work on the farms “Iowans with better food”. God bless.

  152. 152
    tobie says:

    @Platonailedit: Is Pena Nieto now preparing for a showdown with Canada:

    “Given the encouraging announcement today of further bilateral progress between the U.S. and Mexico, Minister Freeland will travel to Washington, D.C., tomorrow to continue negotiations,” said a spokesperson for her office. “We will only sign a new NAFTA that is good for Canada and good for the middle class.”

    Canada’s signature is required,” Freeland’s office emphasized.

    Sounds like Pena Nieto was offered a sweetheart deal from the oil and gas industry for pursuing this agreement. What a shit. Strengthening Trump’s hand only makes life more hellish for every Mexican/Mexican-American living in the US.

  153. 153
    Platonailedit says:

    @Jeffro: Eleventeenth proof they are all corrupt cowards.

  154. 154


    Her dad said he considers Mexican immigrants who work on the farms “Iowans with better food”.

    Well, he does have a good point there.

  155. 155

    @tobie: Did Trump get Mexico to pay for the wall? No? Sad. //

  156. 156
    Ruckus says:

    In a fucking sane world this guy would be shuffling between cells with ankle bracelets on and his hands cuffed behind his back. Digging out of this shit will take 30-40 yrs and who knows how many lives.

  157. 157
    Ken says:


    It’s not a “deal”, it’s basically an unsigned, 3 page Memo of Understanding with a lot of vague “agreements”.

    Return of remains from the US-Mexican war of 1848, denuclearization of the Yucatan peninsula, free passage across the border to visit family members…

  158. 158
    NotMax says:


    Yup. The Augean stables were child’s play in comparison.

  159. 159
    debbie says:


    Jesus, that’s like watching my boss poke at all the buttons trying to get the xerox machine to work. And are those Keurig pods on the table behind him?

  160. 160
    Platonailedit says:

    @debbie: No idea. The second I saw the fugly face, I scrolled away.

  161. 161
    J R in WV says:


    here we get some vaccines at the county health department. I’ve gone to the local high school for flu shots via the Loncoln County Health Dept, to the Kanawha County Health Dept for shingles and diptheria/whooping cough/ tetanus and a third one I’ve forgotten by now. Some I get at the primary care doctor we’ve been seeing for the past 40 years…

  162. 162
    opiejeanne says:

    @NotMax: I don’t believe that Trump will go to France for their parade. He’s not welcome in any decent country and he knows it.

  163. 163
    opiejeanne says:

    @J R in WV: We got our flu shots last week at Costco. They bill our insurance; it’s $20 if you don’t have insurance. That would be hard on most families of four.

  164. 164
    Mnemosyne says:


    Obamacare says that everyone with insurance gets basic vaccinations for free — including an annual flu shot — so the majority of Costco shoppers were probably able to bill it to their insurance companies. Who knows how that’s going to change under Trump?

  165. 165
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    No, those are medallions or “challenge coins” or whatever. Probably a whole set commemorating every Infrastructure Week.

  166. 166
    SWMBO says:

    @Anotherlurker: Valtrex is your friend. I was diagnosed with shingles in 2012. The doc prescribed Valtrex. She said to take it every 8 hours. With food. Sweet Jeebus you could feel it wearing off after 7 1/2 hours. The usually prescribe 14 days. It took 28 days. They gave me ibuprofen for the pain. It will get you back on your feet in a couple of days. I told a couple of others who got shingles and they said it saved their lives. Made it bearable.

  167. 167
    Another Scott says:

    @SWMBO: I hated, hated, hated chicken pox. What an evil disease. I can only imagine what shingles are like, and hearing the reports in this thread makes me glad I haven’t had it. Yet.

    Thanks for the prodding to get vaccinated, everyone. Hang in there.


  168. 168
    debbie says:

    @Steeplejack (phone):

    Sorry I didn’t see this sooner, but thanks for the laugh.

Comments are closed.