Post-Racist America Open Thread: Toppling Silent Sam

Once again, in a less news-intensive week, the protest where a notorious monument to treason in the defense of slavery was pulled down would’ve been a leading headline and the excuse for much punditorial thumb-sucking…

But of course the WUT ABOUT MAH HURTIGE?!? crew — and we’re not talking UNC students, we’re talking Repub opportunists and the revanchists who support them — will not let their bronze idol go unavenged. Per the local News & Observer:

The UNC Board of Governors will hire an outside firm to look into university and police actions at the protest where Silent Sam was toppled this week, the board’s leader said Wednesday.

At least one board member, former Republican state Sen. Thom Goolsby, posted a YouTube video with his questions about the incident, including what’s being done to repair and reinstall the statue.

Harry Smith, who became chairman last month, said Wednesday in an interview he wants an independent group to study the facts of what happened, or what didn’t happen, during Monday’s rally. A group within a crowd of about 250 protesters used rope to pull down the controversial Silent Sam Confederate monument Monday night, more than two hours into a rally…

In a Facebook post Wednesday, state Rep. Bob Steinburg said he was outraged protestors got the opportunity to tear down Silent Sam.

“It is absolutely inexcusable and those responsible, including security who stood by and let it happen, need to be prosecuted, no excuses!!” Steinburg posted.

In a telephone interview, Steinburg said he was appalled at the reaction of law enforcement officers — standing back, “even smiling” as protesters took down Silent Sam.

“Whoever was on that security detail that allowed this to take place and are seen in this video and can be identified … need to lose their jobs,” Steinburg said.

He added that he’s heard from many constituents, even Democrats, who want to keep the monuments in place…

On Wednesday, Goolsby, the UNC Board of Governors member, tweeted: “NC State law is CLEAR. Silent Sam MUST be reinstalled,” along with a link to the 2015 state law governing historic monuments. The law says, in part: “An object of remembrance that is temporarily relocated shall be returned to its original location within 90 days of completion of the project that required its temporary removal.”

Smith said he went to see the Silent Sam statue Tuesday, which he said was being stored in “a secure location.” He said the statue did not appear to be seriously damaged.

He said the process for deciding the future of the statue is a little unclear. But he expects campus trustees and Folt will consider next steps with the statue, make a recommendation and then the Board of Governors would “have a seat at the table.”…

(Video of the protest at the link.)

Frank J. Cirillo had a good, forwardable summary in the Washington Post on “Why ‘Silent Sam’ had to go”. Eugene Scott’s WaPo report is even better:

For more than a century, individuals walking across the northernmost part of campus at the country’s first public university often set eyes on Silent Sam, one of the tallest — and most offensive — monuments on campus.

But for most of the 100-plus years that Silent Sam stood on the campus, what people did not see was a memorial honoring the black people enslaved by the university and others who built some of UNC’s oldest buildings. While UNC became America’s first public university in 1789, it was not until 2005 that it dedicated a much smaller, less visible and not nearly as grand statue recognizing the enslaved black people whose blood and sweat built the university.

As I tweeted the news about the destruction of Silent Sam, I was greeted with much pushback. Some people seemed to question the very fact that enslaved black people helped build the university and wanted names of those involved as proof. Others protested the method in which Silent Sam was removed, cautioning against the spread of anarchy and advocating for confidence in the state legislature’s process to remove similar memorials.

Given the elevated profile of white supremacy in these fraught times, fears that the worldview that led to the erection of Silent Sam could become more dominant should outweigh concerns about a student body that is no longer interested in looking up to a memorial that celebrates “the purest strains of the Anglo-Saxon race.”

Based on the Twitter photos and bios of those objecting to my tweet, I’m guessing none of these individuals knows what it is like to be a descendant of black people who were enslaved in North Carolina and to be studying on a campus that repeatedly honored those who supported that very enslavement. I do.

And for me, my main hope is that future Tar Heels who look like me — and who look nothing like me — can complete their college education in an environment that does not include a statue that was dedicated with a KKK supporter recounting how he “horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds.”…

For those most concerned about honoring Southern culture, there has to be a way to do so without continuing to romanticize the dehumanizing abuse of some of the people who have made some of the most significant contributions — and sacrifices — to the South. I am confident that if there is a place that has the ability to do this honorably, it is the University of North Carolina. It is more than past time.






137 replies
  1. 1
    Gozer says:

    Confederate monuments, the ultimate participation trophies.

    As my Bronx cousins would say “Geddafuckouttahere!”

  2. 2
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Here’s the transcript of Julian Carr’s speech at the installation of Silent Sam. Be aware, this is not pleasant to read, even as a historical document from the Jim Crow era in North Carolina.
    http://hgreen.people.ua.edu/tr.....peech.html

    JULIAN CARR’S SPEECH AT THE DEDICATION OF SILENT SAM
    “Thy Troy is fallen; thy dear land
    Is marred beneath the spoiler’s heel;
    I cannot trust my trembling hand
    To write the things I feel.”

    “Unveiling of Confederate Monument at University. June 2, 1913”
    There are no words that I have been able to find in the vocabulary of the English language that fittingly express my feelings in this presence of this occasion. But you know and I know, that though I might speak with the tongue of men and of angels, neither song nor story could fittingly honor this glorious event. The whole Southland is sanctified by the precious blood of the student Confederate soldier. Their sublime courage has thrown upon the sky of Dixie a picture so bright and beautiful that neither defeat, nor disaster, nor oppression, nor smoke, nor fire, nor devastation, nor desolation, dire and calamitous, and I might with truth add, the world, the flesh nor the Devil has been able to mar or blemish it. The tragedy of history fails to record anywhere upon its sublime pages anything comparable to it. All the time will be the millennium of their glory.

    The canopy of the South is studded with stars which shall grow brighter and brighter as the ages in their endless procession succeed each other.

    No nobler young men ever lived; no braver soldiers ever answered the bugle call nor marched under a battle flag.

    They fought, not for conquest, not for coercion, but from a high and holy sense of duty. They were like the Knights of the Holy Grail, they served for the reward of serving, they suffered for the reward of suffering, they endured for the reward of enduring, they fought for the reward of duty done. They served, they suffered, they endured, they fought, [and died – crossed out] for their childhood homes, their firesides, the honor of their ancestors, their loved ones, their own native land.

    This noble gift of the United Daughters of the Confederacy touches deeply and tenderly the heart of every man who has the privilege of claiming the University of North Carolina as his Alma Mater. It is in harmony with the eternal fitness of things that the Old North State’s daughters of to-day should commemorate the heroism of the men and youths whom the mothers and sisters, the wives and sweethearts of half a century ago sent forth to battle for the South. As Niobe wept over her sons slain by Apollo, so the tears of our women were shed over the consummate sacrifice of their loved ones. And as the gods transformed Niobe into a marble statue, and set this upon a high mountain, as our native goddesses erect this monument of bronze to honor the valor of all those whom fought and died for the Sacred Cause, as well as for the living sons of this grand old University.

    The years of the future will laurel the story,
    How often the tender, the brave, and the true,
    Stood feet on the fields of their merited glory,
    A thin line of gray ‘gainst the legions of blue.

    O! what if half fell in the battle informal?
    Aye, what if they lost at the end of the fray?
    Love gives them a wreath that is fadeless, eternal,
    And glory investeth the line of gray.

    They broker it, the thousands, the might of a nation,
    Hurled back the weak line in its pitiful plight;
    The deeds that had challenged a world’s admiration,
    Went down ‘neath the pall of a pitiless night.

    The war between the states was fought, really, by the women who stayed at home. Had they uttered a cry, had they complained, the morale of Lee’s army would have been dissipated in a day.

    How many mothers were there in those days of stress and storm like her of that touching interlude of Tennyson’s?

    “Home they brought her warrior dead,
    She nor swooned nor uttered cry;
    All her maidens watching, said,
    She must week or she must die.

    Then they praised him soft and low,
    Called him worthy to be loved,
    Truest friend and noblest foe,
    Yet she neither spoke nor moved.

    Stole a maiden from her place,
    Lightly to her warrior stepped,
    Took the face-cloth from the face,
    Yet she neither moved, nor wept.

    Rose a nurse of ninety years,
    Set her child upon her knee,
    Like summer tempest came her tears,
    ‘Sweet my child, I live for thee.’”

    And how she lived for him, that patient widowed mother of the South; what a man she made of him; how she has kept true in his breast the best traditions of his race; how she has fed him, clothed him, brought him up through poverty to wealth, from weakness to strength, to the high honor of hard work, through the indomitable example that she set! She has made of the sturdy manhood of the South the highest product which a Christian race has yet attained.

    God bless the noble women of my dear Southland, who are to-day as thoroughly convinced of the justice of that cause. They are the guardians of the sacred honor the the [sic] departed; they will protect the memory of the hero’s spirit no less than preserve from desecration from the sand [handwritten insertion of– sand] dust of his body.

    Nothing in all the marvelous record can equal the fortitude, the constancy, the devotion of the women of the South. Whatever history has written of Andromache or Penelope, of Virginia or Lucretia, of the Carthagenian maids whose hair supplied bowstrings of battle; of Boadecia or Helen of Troy, of Elizabeth or Joan of Arc; it was for the women of the Confederacy, our dear old mothers, our wives, and our sweethearts, God bless them every one, to show forth again in such resplendent guise, that neither history nor romance can approach its everlasting glory.

    The educational institutions of the South here a conspicuous part in respect to the number of students who represented them in the ranks of the army of the Confederacy. Nowhere in all the South was the approaching conflict more keenly scented than in the universities and colleges, and the gallant boys, then pursuing their studies, lost no time in preparing themselves for the hour when the call should come. Long before the shot on Sumpter, which as heard around the world, was fired, companies of students were drilling on the campus. Within a week or two after that fateful April day, they were on the march to the front. On every battlefield they gave good account of themselves, and with their life-blood the sealed the compact of patriot and hero.

    In the foremost rank of the schools whose students rallied ‘around the Stars and Bars stands on own beloved University. One only is ahead of us in the list, the University of Virginia, of whose students, 2,481 served in the Confederate Army and Navy, and 488 of whom gave up their lives. Washington College – now Washington and Lee University – sent out a company, early in 1861, under the name of Liberty Hall Volunteers. It numbered 76, 26 wounded and 9 died in the service. All in all, Washington College gave 450 men to the Confederacy.

    Even the great Northern universities – Harvard, Yale and Princeton – furnished quotas of soldiers for the Confederate ranks. From Harvard came 257, of whom 58 were killed in battle and 12 died in the service, and in this large list appear 8 brigadier-generals and 5 major-generals. Of the graduates and students of Yale, 48 entered the Confederate service, and of these 8 were killed in battle or succumbed to disease At Princeton 55 men left the University, early in 1861, to enter the Confederate service, and from the somewhat incomplete records of that University it appears that a considerable percentage of these young men were killed in battle, or died from disease.

    At William and Mary College, 44 enlisted in the Confederate service, of whom 6 were killed.

    Of the students and alumni of the University of North Carolina, about 1800 entered the Confederate army, of whom 842 belonged to the generation of 1850-1862. The University had in the service 1 lieutenant-general, 4 major-generals, 13 brigadier-[page break 8] generals, 71 colonels, 30 lieutenant-colonels, 65 majors, 46 adjutants, 71 surgeons, 254 captains, 161 lieutenants, 38 non-commissioned officers and about 1000 privates.

    I regard it as eminently appropriate to refer briefly at his point to the magnificent showing made by our state in the military service of the Confederacy. North Carolina furnished 84 regiments, 16 battalions and 13 unattached companies, besides the companies and individuals serving in commands from other states, and 9 regiments of Home Guards. Losses on the battlefield and by disease indicate that her contribution to the Confederate army was somewhat more than 1 to 5, while here military population stood in the proportion of 1 to 9. The entire Confederate loss on the battlefield was 74,524, of which North Carolina’s share was 19,673, or more than one-fourth; 59, 297 died of disease, and of these, 20,602 were North Carolinians.

    And I dare to affirm this day, that if every State of the South had done what North Carolina did without a murmer [sic], always faithful to its duty whatever the groans of the victims, there never would have been an Appomatox[sic]; Grant would have followed Meade and Pope; Burnside, Hooker, McDowell and McClellan, and the political geography of America would have been re-written.

    It is not for us to question the decrees of Providence. Let us be grateful that our struggle, keeping alive the grand principle of local self-government and State sovereignty has thus far held the American people from that consolidated despotism whose name, whether Republic or Empire, is of but little importance as compared with its rule.

    This beautiful memorial is unique in one aspect. I have participated at the unveiling of several Confederate monuments, and have intimate knowledge of a great many more, but this is the first and only one in which the living survivors have been distinctly mentioned and remembered, and in the distinguished presence I desire to thank that Daughters of the Confederacy, in the name of the living Confederate students, for their beautiful and timely thoughtfulness.

    The duty due to our dear Southland, and the conspicuous service rendered, did not end at Appomatox[sic]. The four years immediately following the four years of bloody carnage, brought their responsibilities hardly of less consequence than those for which the South laid upon the altar of her country 74,524 of her brave and loyal sons dead from disease, a grand total of 133,821.

    It is true that the snows of winter which never melt, crown our temples, and we realize that we are living in the twilight zone; that it requires no unusual strain to hear the sounds of the tides as they roll and break upon the other shore, “The watch-dog’s bark his deep bay mouth welcome as we draw near home”, breaks upon our ears—makes it doubly sweet to know that we have been remembered in the erection of this beautiful memorial. The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God.

    I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.

    With pardonable pride I look upon the grand record of my Alma Mater, near whose confines I first beheld the light; in whose classic halls three of my sons have graduated and a fourth is now a student, and where my brother and three of his sons also matriculated. The glorious record of this seat of learning is embalmed in affections of our family.

    A brave soldier, a devoted son of the South, an honor graduate of this grand old University, led the brave phalanxes of the South fartherest [sic] to the front, up the bloody, slippery heights at Gettysburg, along the crest where death in full panoply with exultant glee held high carnival – I bow my head while I mention the name of the chivalrous J. Johnson Pettigrew – the Marshall Ney of Lee’s Army.

    Permit me to refer at this point to a pleasing incident in which that distinguished son of the South, Woodrow Wilson, President of the United States, had the leading part. A year or two ago diplomas were given by our University to all the students who had interrupted their studies to enter the military service of the Confederacy. Mr. Wilson, then President of Princeton University delivered these diplomas. One man only of the Class [handwritten – that Matriculated in 1862] wearing the Confederate uniform, came forward to receive that highly prized token. It was the humble individual who now addresses you. At the dinner, later in the day, Professor Wilson greeted me with the remark that in many years nothing had so much touched and warmed his heart as the sight of that Confederate uniform.

    The “old gray” always awakens sad and tender memories, glorified more and more by the receding years. Those of us who donned it and brought it back tattered and torn after the final battle had been fought, and our banner had been furled at fateful Appomatax [sic], and who are yet here to recall those days that tried the souls of the men and women of the South, how in profoundest gratitude before you, Daughters of the Confederacy, for this tribute of your love, for this token of your devotion to the spirit of the South, the spirit that animated all those who for four long years fought against overwhelming odds, and to whose unflinching valor their whilom adversaries bear fervent testimony to-day.
    In our forums, in our halls, in our universities and colleges and schools they tell us, through tradition, song and story of the wonderful deeds of the ancient Greeks and Romans, Thermopylae, Marathon, Platea, of Caesar and his 10th Legion, which carried the Roman Eagle to the confines of the known world, of the chivalric knights of the Middle Ages, of Saratoga and Yorktown, of Cowpens and King’s Mountain, of Lodi and Austerlitz, of Napoleon and the Old Guard, of Jefferson Davis and Buena Vista, and Monterey, but there is nothing recorded which surpasses the achievements of the Student Soldiers who wore the gray. For undaunted heroism, unyielding endurance, patient suffering, incessant fighting and deathless valor, he is without parallel. He was the ancient Greek of modern times, led by the Miltiades of the 19th Century, the world’s greatest hero, Robert E. Lee.

    The Spartan lived again in the Confederate Student Uniform. When the flag of the Stars and Bars was unfurled, consecrated by woman’s devotion, sanctified with woman’s tears, with all the hopes that clustered around it, with all the mighty millions of forces arranged to crush it, Leonidas, clad in the Confederate Students Uniform, arose from the dead to fight under its folds again for his country.

    O, they are not dead! If they are not here to-day, I know where they are , fellow comrades, I know where they are, — just over the narrow river, camped in silent tents, on the green sward, under the shade of the trees, on the bank of the crystal stream of life.

    They tell us, the foolish ones tell us, that when Stonewall Jackson, the world’s greatest strategist and the great general and Christian soldier, was dying, he became delirious. But he was not delirious. It is true, the light of the world was fading before his vision, but as it faded, he caught a glimpse of this beautiful camp in which are so many of his brave soldiers, and as the light of the world faded away, and the vision of that tented field rose before his closing eyes, he said:
    “Let us pass over the river, rest under the shade of the trees.”

    Ever and anon, through all the vicissitudes of life, we are prone to ask ourselves: “What am I, whence did I come and whither do I go?” Are our lives like bubbles cast upon the ocean of eternity to float for a moment, then to sink into nothingness? Or like the islands that slumber on the bosom of the sea for a day, and then go down beneath the waters? Or like the meteors which streak the heavens with their lines of light and then go out forever? Is there no place where the soul can say, “This is my home?”

    Why were these instincts of immortality implanted in our breast? Were they placed there to mock us in our desolation?

    Why were the stars, in their unapproachable glory, set in the skies above us, if there is no hope? Why was the rainbow ever painted before our eyes, if there is no promise?

    There must be, there IS a land that is fairer than day, where the rainbow never fades, where stars never go down, where these longings of immortality shall leap like angels from the temple of our hearts, and bring us rest; where the good and true, who fall before us like Autumn leaves, shall forever stay in our presence. There, there, fellow comrades, is the Confederate soldier’s paradise, the Confederate soldier’s heaven of eternal rest.

    That for which they battled in memory of this monument is reared, as well as for the survivors of that bloody drama, was not achieved. But the cause for which they fought is not lost, never can be, never will be lost while it is enshrined in the hearts of the people of the South, especially the hearts of the dear, loyal, patriotic women, who, like so many Vestal Virgins (God’s name be praised), keep the fires lighted upon the Altars. Nay, as long as men anywhere pay tribute to the self-sacrificing spirit of a peoples’ ideals.

    Ah! never shall the land forget
    How gushed the life-blood of her braves,
    Gushed, warmed with hope and courage yet,
    Upon the soil they fought to save.

    Yea, though thou lie upon the dust,
    When they who helped thee flee in fear,
    Die full of hope and may trust,
    Like those who fell in battle here.

    In the knowledge of subsequent developments, the progress, peace and prosperity of our united, common country, victor and vanquished now alike believe that in the Providence of God it was right and well that the issue was determined as it was. And the people of all sections of our great Republic, moved by the impulse of sincere and zealous loyalty, of fervent and exalted patriotism may say: “All is well that ends well.”

    Again, dear Daughters of the Confederacy, I thank you in the name of the eighteen hundred brave, loyal, patriotic, home-loving young student soldiers who went out from this grand old University to battle for our Southern rights and Southern liberties, five hundred of whom never came back. God bless every one of you, and every Daughter of the Confederacy in our dear Southland.
    I thank you – God bless you.

    Source: Julian S. Carr, “Unveiling of Confederate Monument at University. June 2, 1913” in the Julian Shakespeare Carr Papers #141, Southern Historical Collection, The Wilson Library, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.

  3. 3
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    punditorial

    Is that yours? I love it! The English language has been waiting for that word.

  4. 4
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    Not racist at all.

    “One hundred yards from where we stand, less than 90 days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady,” Julius Carr said when he delivered the dedication speech on the steps of Silent Sam in 1913.

  5. 5
    Keith P says:

    How about replacing it with a statue of Serious Sam and see if anyone notices.

  6. 6
    burnspbesq says:

    Given the composition of the NC Legislature and the recent history of academic and athletic scandals at Chapel Hell, we’re a long way from knowing how this will play out. I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before someone blames the whole thing on Duke and/or State students.

  7. 7
    Mary G says:

    Amusing: Paris Dennard, who Twitler was so pleased with on CNN, has been suspended after it has come to light that he was fired from ASU for sexual harassment, according to WaPo. Some gory details:

    Dennard also admitted to touching the first woman’s “neck with his tongue,” according to the report. In that instance, Dennard “came up behind EMPLOYEE 1 during another [McCain Institute] event and whispered in her ear that he wanted to ‘f—’ her.”

    EWWWW.
    Can they not find one Trump supporter who’s a good person? I guess not.

  8. 8
  9. 9
    Corner Stone says:

    @Keith P: I propose Yosemite Sam.

  10. 10
    Corner Stone says:

    Damn it to effin hell.

  11. 11
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mary G: Actually, he licked a subordinate’s neck. So he should more properly be referred to as a sexual assaulter.

  12. 12
    hueyplong says:

    I am learning this week that I have an almost endless capacity for Schadenfreude.

    Here is the text of a letter to the editor in today’s Charlotte Observer:

    Does the fact that the statue was pulled down change history? Not hardly. During the Civil War a large representation of the UNC Chapel Hill campus left the institution to go fight for the right of state sovereignty, the right not to be coerced by other states in the union.

    This fact seems to be lost on present day “feel-gooders” who only want to destroy what they say are vestiges of white supremacy. Are we pulling down symbols of racism or insulting those who stood for principles of individual liberty and justice?

    Judging by the actions of the UNC administration it seems they’ve cast their lot with the Marxists. Id do not want my state tax dollars to fund this institution.

    Jonathan Varnell, Elm City

    – – –
    Dude typed that, read it, satisfied himself that it was the apogee of pwning the libtards, and hit SEND. There is something to love in nearly every sentence, but my favorite is the Nazi-like insistence that Confederates stand against Bolshevism.

    More importantly, his bitter tears are delectable with Irish whiskey.

    This business week still has two days to go, and I’m feeling greedy.

  13. 13
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Corner Stone: Too slow!

  14. 14
    Aleta says:

    From the Atlantic

    Historically black colleges and universities (HBCUs), half of which are public, draw a lion’s share of their revenue from state and federal funding. And as states tighten their belts on higher-education spending, HBCUs are struggling to come up with the funds …

    But there’s a way for colleges to circumvent their funding woes to pay for campus improvements: taking on debt. But even then, the legacy of racism in the treatment of black colleges is apparent.

    There are a couple of steps colleges have to go through to issue bond debt. First, they have to find a bank to buy the debt. The bank will then sell the debt to public investors. … But the banks don’t do this for free. They typically sell the debt at a slight markup as compensation for expenses and management fees—and that ultimately falls back on the college to pay off.

    A forthcoming study in the Journal of Financial Economics examines the differences in these markups for HBCUs and non-HBCUs. The researchers—Casey Dougal of Drexel University, Paul Gao of Notre Dame, William Mayew of Duke University, and Christopher Parsons of the University of Washington—used a 23-year sample of 4,145 tax-exempt municipal bonds issues issued by 965 four-year, not-for-profit colleges.

    They found that black colleges pay more to issue debt. “For the typical non-HBCU, 81 cents out of every $100 raised flows to banks. The average for HBCUs is 11 points higher, at 92 cents per $100 raised.” So, for a $30 million bond issuance, a black college would pay $276,000, while a non-HBCU would pay $243,000.

    The hard part of the analysis, Gao told me, was figuring out whether the difference could be attributed to any factors other than black colleges’ affiliation with racial minorities. So, the researchers controlled for the bond features such as the amount raised, when the bond will be paid off, and colleges’ ability to pay early. They also looked at the quality of the bank selling the bond, as well as school metrics like enrollment, alumni-giving rates, and rankings.

    But even after controlling for all of these factors, black colleges still paid significantly more—16 points more than non-HBCUs.

    Another possible explanation, that HBCUs have bad credit and aren’t appealing to investors, also couldn’t explain the difference. The researchers controlled for credit rating, and only looked at deals with AAA-ratings (—) and the difference, 16 points, remained the same.

    That led the researchers to conclude that there could not be any other answer: Racism was the primary driver.

    Yet another finding drove home that conclusion more clearly. “If racial animus is the primary reason why HBCU-issued bonds are harder to place,” the researchers wrote, “then these frictions should be magnified in states where anti-Black racial resentment is most severe.” And sure enough, by separating out black colleges in Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana, the researchers found that the markup rates for HBCUs were 30 points higher than non-HBCUs in those three states, nearly triple the 11-point difference elsewhere in the country.https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2018/08/black-colleges-loans-racism/568168/

    Other numbers are at https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=667

  15. 15
    Corner Stone says:

    After Pecker inserted himself into this issue, I can not wait to see highlights from the Fox interview w/ Trump tomorrow.

  16. 16
    Betty Cracker says:

    Oh hey, the POTUS just took his domestic white nationalist movement global:

  17. 17
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.

    Dear Christ. I am ashamed to acknowledge this brute as a fellow human being. Horrified.

  18. 18
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Corner Stone:
    I second this proposal. Let the people be amused.

  19. 19
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I almost bolded that, but decided not to. As well as the bit about Confederate soldiers being the protectors of white Christendom.

  20. 20
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Corner Stone:

    After Pecker inserted himself into this issue

    Phrasing!

  21. 21
    NotMax says:

    @Adam L. Silverman

    How about Silent Bob?

    :)

  22. 22
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    If they have to erect a statue, how about Michael Jordan, with James Worthy and Brad Daugherty. Don’t forget Dean Smith.

  23. 23
    Mary G says:

    @Adam L Silverman: This part where he basically says the South lost the war, but won the Reconstruction, is awful:

    The duty due to our dear Southland, and the conspicuous service rendered, did not end at Appomatox[sic]. The four years immediately following the four years of bloody carnage, brought their responsibilities hardly of less consequence than those for which the South laid upon the altar of her country 74,524 of her brave and loyal sons dead from disease, a grand total of 133,821.

    It is true that the snows of winter which never melt, crown our temples, and we realize that we are living in the twilight zone; that it requires no unusual strain to hear the sounds of the tides as they roll and break upon the other shore, “The watch-dog’s bark his deep bay mouth welcome as we draw near home”, breaks upon our ears—makes it doubly sweet to know that we have been remembered in the erection of this beautiful memorial. The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God.

  24. 24
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Oh hey, the POTUS just took his domestic white nationalist movement global

    I resent that! Our racist potato headed Prime Minister in waiting has already been there for months.

  25. 25
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: But then Jay is going to want a statue and then where does it end?

  26. 26
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mary G: Yep. You’ve got both the Southern men saved white Christendom crap in there and what I’ve stated here many a time: the Confederacy lost the war and won the peace.

  27. 27
    hueyplong says:

    … the Confederacy lost the war and won the peace, whining every step of the way.

    Finished that for you.

  28. 28
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It is truly sickening.

  29. 29
    Suzanne says:

    @Mary G: As an ASU alumna, I am very pleased. Fuck that guy.

  30. 30
    Ommes Omnibus says:

    : @Adam L Silverman: I shall say” Gah!”

  31. 31
    Mr Stagger Lee says:

    I seem to recall, that Zebulon Vance th governor of North Carolina. during the Civil War, ran the state like a dictatorship, and used the Home Guards to hunt down Confederate deserters, as well as any Tar Heel who refused to fight.

  32. 32
    Mandalay says:

    So Maggie Haberman gave up tweeting a couple of months ago? She’s sent out 25 pearls of wisdom today.

    There must be something about being in the loop that makes life unbearable when you exile yourself from the loop.

    Or maybe there’s not a lot of stenography to be done at the moment.

  33. 33
    Inventor says:

    Every southern state except South Carolina supplied regiments to the Union Army. In some cases, such as Missouri, Tennessee and Arkansas, significant amounts. A stroll through the Vicksburg battle ground will reveal monuments to both the Confederate and Union soldiers of the same state.

    Replace monuments to traitors with monuments to patriots from the same state. A much better lesson for the children….and the adults.

  34. 34
    AM in NC says:

    UNC Alumna here. School administrators should have handled this long ago. Good riddance to an awful symbol that was very prominent on campus.

  35. 35
    Yarrow says:

    So there’s this.

    🚨 Trump said he is considering a pardon for Paul Manafort, Fox's Ainsley Earhardt says after interview pic.twitter.com/q2JawuT4p6— Jon Passantino (@passantino) August 23, 2018

  36. 36
    Jeffro says:

    @Adam L Silverman: So much eloquence in the service of Mammon.

    Good riddance, Silent Sam.

  37. 37
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:
    There’s another story at the Sydney Morning Herald about the question mark over Peter Dutton’s eligibility to sit in Parliament at all. How is that playing out, especially for his effort to unseat Turnbull as PM?

  38. 38
    Suzanne says:

    @Yarrow: Is he really that stupid?

    Shit. The answer’s in the question.

  39. 39
    Mary G says:

    @Mandalay: FTFNYT did a redesign of their web site and removed all the bylines, so now Maggie has to promote her stories again.

  40. 40
    Mary G says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Also a bonus “these kids today!”

  41. 41
    Kelly says:

    via Oliver Willis a useful video on how to defend yourself from a knife attack,
    https://twitter.com/Garvinsnell/status/1031869373617786880

  42. 42
    Jeffro says:

    @hueyplong: Oh, is THAT what they were fighting for? “State sovereignty”? How intriguing! It’s almost like the history books are all wrong and this guy has a lock on The Truth.

  43. 43
    EBT says:

    As a WNC native who’s ancestors crossed the line and fought for the union (a common occurrence; the civil war memorial on the AB Tech campus has 12 union slates and half of a single confederate slate.), fuck silent sam; fuck the racist old white piece of shit they quoted, and fuck every other racist piece of shit crying about a symbol of oppression being pulled down.

  44. 44
    Aleta says:

    William Sturkey … documented a life-long history of Carr’s white supremacist actions including his stereotyping of African Americans as violent criminals lusting after white women. Carr was also against the right for black North Carolinians to vote. One of Carr’s most notable White Supremacist actions was his aid in the take down of the “Fusion Movement.” He was able to acquire the News & Observer newspaper to influence an overthrow, which also contributed to the Wilmington Massacre of 1898 where over 60 African Americans were murdered – what Carr claimed was a “grand and glorious event.” He also used this description in his Silent Sam Speech.

    –from a fucked up both sides article (not linking) Names in Brick and Stone: Histories from UNC’s Built Landscape
    History/American Studies 671: Introduction to Public History, UNC-Chapel Hill

  45. 45
  46. 46
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Peter Dutton’s eligibility

    The eligibility of a member of parliament can only be determined by a court, but first the parliament has to vote to refer the case to the court.

    Labor brought up the vote and lost 69-68. Of course one of those 69 votes was Dutton’s. So Dutton voted to save his own job.

    Yes, it’s that kind of government.

    There is also a little matter of improperly using his ministerial position to get two au pairs who were being denied entry to the country, instant visas. That is simmering in the background.

    The Libs have canceled this sitting of parliament until Sept 10. Presumably by then they will have decided which dickhead they want as leader.

  47. 47
    Schlemazel says:

    I posted this on a thread last night, it is from the dedication speech for fuckheadSilent Sam

    I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro wench until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison

    http://hgreen.people.ua.edu/tr.....peech.html

  48. 48
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Viva BrisVegas:

    Of course one of those 69 votes was Dutton’s.

    I’m gobsmacked.

  49. 49
    NotMax says:

    @Jeffro

    a lock on The Truth.

    Truth is not truth.

    Locks are not locks.

    The is not the.

    :)

  50. 50
    Mary G says:

    Manafort juror speaking out on Fox News – one women held out from guilty on all counts:

    1. One of the Paul Manafort trial jurors Paula Duncan is on Fox News right now.— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) August 23, 2018

  51. 51
    phein58 says:

    Why are there no statues of Nat Turner in the Carolinas? Why not on the Capital grounds? Slave revolts are as much a part of Southern Heritage as Confederate soldiers, and at least they adhered to American ideals. Nat Turner is a true American hero, no doubt about it.

  52. 52
    Mary G says:

    @Mary G:

    2. Duncan says that it was only one juror that prevented the jury from convicting Manafort on the other 8 counts. Duncan says another woman juror was the holdout and the jury kept trying to convince her Manafort was guilty on those counts. Duncan says woman had reasonable doubt.— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) August 23, 2018

    3. Duncan says she's speaking out because she doesn't feel a threat. She says she's not afraid at all. She says that she felt like the public needed to know how close it was. Adding "I didn't want Manafort to be guilty, but he was…and no one is above the law."— Yashar Ali 🐘 (@yashar) August 23, 2018

  53. 53
    Keith P says:

    @Corner Stone: We should be inclusive and have displays for several cultural Sam’s.

  54. 54
    Amir Khalid says:

    @NotMax:
    That depends on what the meaning of “is” is. ;)

  55. 55
    Chyron HR says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Why is a Good Man like Paul Manafort in jail for “alleged” crimes while Mandela Nelson is a free man? SAD! MSAGA!

  56. 56
    Shell says:

    Okay, why is he called Silent Sam?

  57. 57
    NotMax says:

    @EBT

    As a WNC native who’s ancestors

    whose

    /inner editor

  58. 58
    Schlemazel says:

    @Schlemazel:
    I see many got there before I did. This ugly truth has to be shoved in the face of everyone of these treasonous bastards until they choke to death on it

  59. 59

    Not everyone in America is post-racist. This is a white supremacist talking point, directly from Tucker Carlson’s lips to The Orange One’s tweet button.

  60. 60
    tobie says:

    @Mary G: I just got wind of this. I guess the evidence really was so overwhelming that even the holdout couldn’t claim reasonable doubt on all 18 counts. That the vote on ten counts was 11-1 does make you wonder about that one juror.

  61. 61
    Chyron HR says:

    @tobie:

    No, it makes me wonder how the deep state stacked the jury with ten globalist soy elite cucks (brain dribbles out ears)

  62. 62
    cain says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Jesus H. Christ, what a wind bag. People could stand around in the southern heat and listen to this guy? Never mind the casual racism of his speech, but goddam what a pompous fuck.

  63. 63
    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.] says:

    Replace it with the statue of a kneeling football player. UNC is a big football school right? I’m sure nobody would mind that…. //

  64. 64
    cain says:

    @Corner Stone:

    After Pecker inserted himself into this issue, I can not wait to see highlights from the Fox interview w/ Trump tomorrow.

    I see what you did there. And I like it.

  65. 65
    Amir Khalid says:

    @cain:
    There was a real-life basis for the Foghorn Leghorn stereotype.

  66. 66
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @Shell:

    Because it hurt his feelings when they called him “racist Sam”.

  67. 67
    tobie says:

    @Chyron HR: Heh. Not 10, 11. The Deep State found 11 tree-hugging, vegan, PETA-supporting people for the jury. How can a cheating, lying, stealing friend of brutal autocrats get a fair trial in Alexandria, VA?

  68. 68
    Mary G says:

    @tobie: Makes a good case for a retrial on those 10 counts.

    Brian Stelter’s daily email has the next Time cover, by the same artist who did “Nothing to See Here” and “Stormy” with the wind and rising water in the Oval Office. The new one is called “In Deep” and now the Oval is full of water and all you can see is Twitler from the chest down flailing to stay afloat.

  69. 69
    cmorenc says:

    I am a UNC-Chapel Hill alum, and for decades all “Silent Sam” represented to all but a negligible fraction of students and townspeople was the standing joke that Sam only fired his gun when a virgin walked past, and he hadn’t fired the gun in decades. Frankly, hitherto decades of UNC students have given little thought to Sam as a memorial to Confederate soldiers, and vanishingly few knew of the circumstances and timing of the statue’s establishment on-campus – the statute was simply a campus landmark that brought a really stale (and somewhat sexist) joke to mind to the vast majority of students and townspeople, which statue sparked vanishingly little thoughts about the Confederate or racist past of the state. I’ll bet that a week ago, (or pick any week in the past 40 years) you could walk up to 100 students and ask what the inscription on the statue said, and vanishingly few would have any idea.

    This obsession some on the progressive left have with pulling down by mob force every statute memorializing Confederate soldiers or a particular southern state’s past as part of the Confederacy is frankly counter-productive. You really think you’re going to pull down the obelisk in virtually every southern courthouse square or state capital dedicated to that location’s confederate soldiers who died in the war? And by doing so, change anyone’s mind that needs changing? These statues were for decades artifacts forgotten in plain sight by the vast majority of even the white population.

    Any confederate statues that need to come down should be done by lawful persuasion of local or state governments. That worked to get even South Carolina to remove the confederate flag from the statehouse, and a confederate statue removed in New Orleans. True, a hard-core modern Confederate sympahtizer group (“the Secessionist Party) has, since that removal, counter-protested by raising the flag on state grounds every year on the date of the removal, but the group was small to begin with, and has been smaller every year.

    You frankly do more to keep this Confederate crap alive than to kill it off by vandalizing statues rather than strategically pushing for legal removal of the most egregious ones (e.g. honoring Nathan Bedford Forrest).

  70. 70
    Platonailedit says:

    Forget the turd’s noise machine.

    Flagging: WSJ reports that David Pecker, the chair of American Media Inc., has provided prosecutors with details about payments Michael Cohen arranged with women who alleged sexual encounters with Trump, including Trump's knowledge of the deals. https://t.co/et8NobcMev— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) August 23, 2018

  71. 71
    cain says:

    @Shell:

    Okay, why is he called Silent Sam?

    Because in real life the fucker was a long winded entitled prick. In death, we can finally heave a sigh of relief that he’s finally shut the fuck up.

  72. 72
    NotMax says:

    @tobie

    The employment make-up. Also racial make-up, which I find an unnecessary data point to disclose.

  73. 73
    Platonailedit says:

    @Mary G:

    And of course, cnn had to dig deep through the muck to hire him as a ‘trump supporter’.

  74. 74
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    It gets more amusing.

    Current PM Turnbull has just announced that if he is turfed out of the top job he will immediately resign from parliament.

    His seat is a blue ribbon inner city electorate which would rather fall into the sea than vote Labor. However they do have a history of voting for Independents when the government is on the nose. Should an unfriendly Independent take the seat, the government would immediately lose its majority. Then it will be on for young and old.

  75. 75
    cmorenc says:

    @Shell:

    Okay, why is he called Silent Sam?

    For decades, it’s been a running stale (and somewhat sexist) joke on campus that the statue of Sam only fires the rifle held in his hand when a virgin walks by – and he hasn’t fired it in decades. That’s why the statue is called “Silent Sam” – cause he hasn’t ever fired that gun in his hands.

  76. 76
    Chyron HR says:

    @cmorenc:

    You really think you’re going to pull down the obelisk in virtually every southern courthouse square or state capital dedicated to that location’s confederate soldiers who died in the war?

    I don’t see how that’s any more unreasonable than the obsession some on the regressive right have with pulling down social security and medicare so they can give the money to a dozen billionaires instead.

  77. 77
    cain says:

    @cmorenc:

    For decades, it’s been a running stale (and somewhat sexist) joke on campus that the statue of Sam only fires the rifle held in his hand when a virgin walks by – and he hasn’t fired it in decades. That’s why the statue is called “Silent Sam” – cause he hasn’t ever fired that gun in his hands.

    Surely, he fired when that fuck Dinesh D’Souza walked past..?

  78. 78
    Jay says:

    @Shell:

    Out of ammo,

    One of the mass produced, cheap, bronze plated Treason in Defence of Slavery Participation Trophies the Daughter’s of Confederation crowd funded their grift off, then had made in the North as cheaply as possible.

    Basically a 1914 era MAGA hat.

  79. 79
    Aleta says:

    @burnspbesq:
    Carr helped found Duke and has a building named after him there too.

    Removing Carr’s name from buildings is called Carr-Washing.

    Carr’s defenders at the university say
    ‘on the other hand he was a successful businessman’ ; and
    ‘he was so generous!” (gave $ to UNC, a Confederate group, Trinity-Duke, and a church); and he was the sole donor for a UNC CH campus building. (Therefore he was allowed to name it. He chose The Carr Building.)

    “His most interesting contribution is to the city of Carrboro – located directly next to Chapel Hill. … The town of Carrboro is literally named after Julian Carr for sharing electricity to the town when their last mill was shut down.” The point seems to be that Carr is already unmentionable in so many places; isn’t that enough? Besides, Carrboro is a diverse community. But the former mayor wants to rename it !

    I leave the opinion of Julian Carr to the interpretation of the researcher or reader.
    ( Written by Anne Mitchell Whisnant, history instructor at UNC CH, for a course in public history.)
    The University of North Carolina aims to inform the public with facts about Julian Shakespeare Carr, along with other civil war monuments on campus.

  80. 80
    Mike in NC says:

    I visited UNC-Chappell Hill in 1984 when I left active duty Navy. Had a buddy there at the school. Seemed like a very nice college town.

  81. 81
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: The next jury is coming from the DC circuit. And the next judge isn’t Ellis.

  82. 82
    Calouste says:

    “the purest strains of the Anglo-Saxon race.”

    So would that be the Angles strain, the Saxon strain, the Celtic strain, the Picts strain, the Roman strain, the Viking strain, the Norman strain, …?

  83. 83
    NotMax says:

    First of the rains underway as of about 15 minutes ago. And we’re still about a full day away from the real stuff.

  84. 84
    Jay says:

    @Calouste:

    http://anti-racistcanada.blogs.....d.html?m=1

    Delusions are unbounded,

    Polliveau was asked today about Trudeau’s Nazi heckler, and I snorted my drink out my mouth,

    He said he should have Jean Cretien’d her.

  85. 85
    NCSteve says:

    @cain:See reactionary screed above. Only fired off his gun when a virgin walked by.

    The other piece of eyewash about Sam is this: he was supposed to memorialize the UNC students who died in the was. What they didn’t tell you is that the reason for their service is that they shut down the university for the duration and drafted the lot of them.

    The sculptor, somewhat subversively, did a good job of catching some of that by putting a reluctant somewhat bewildered thousand yard stare resignation in his face. But it was the gas-bagging postbellum white supremicists that paid to put it up.

  86. 86
    NCSteve says:

    @Aleta Ah, Carrboro. Where the students without rich parents lived. Reminds me of how, back in the 80s, the DJ’s at the school’s college station called it Radio Free Carrboro.

  87. 87
    Mary G says:

    The juror who went on Fox News to talk about the Manafort trial is a full-fledged Trumpista:

    Her account of the deliberations is no longer a secret. And neither is the pro-Trump apparel she kept for a long drive to the federal courthouse in Alexandria every day.

    “Every day when I drove, I had my Make America Great Again hat in the backseat,” said Duncan, who said she plans to vote for Trump again in 2020. “Just as a reminder.”

    She didn’t want Manafort to be guilty, but he was, based on all the paper evidence.

  88. 88
    stinger says:

    @cmorenc:

    decades of white UNC students have given little thought to Sam as a memorial to Confederate soldiers

    Fixed that for you.

  89. 89
    Jay says:

    @NCSteve:

    Nope, Silent Sam is based on no ammo pouch,

    Can’t fire,

    A “stabbed in the back” post Reconstruction Treason in Defence of Slavery myth.

    “Similar to his Daniel A. Bean sculpture, Wilson created a “silent” statue by not including a cartridge box on the subject’s belt so he cannot fire his gun.[11] Like the Daniel A. Bean statue, Wilson used a northerner—Harold Langlois, a Boston man—as his model.[10] This was part of a tradition of “Silent Sentinels,” statues created in the North (often mass-produced), depicting soldiers without ammo or with their guns at parade rest.[12] Like these other statues, Silent Sam is positioned to face north, towards the Union.[10]”

  90. 90
    Это курам на смех says:

    So would that be the Angles strain, the Saxon strain, the Celtic strain, the Picts strain, the Roman strain, the Viking strain, the Norman strain, …?

    Don’t confuse me with the facts.

  91. 91

    @Suzanne: I read that ASU is opening a satellite campus here in LA in the old Herald Examiner building.

  92. 92
  93. 93
    NotMax says:

    FYI.

    …on Wednesday afternoon, the governor’s office announced that the president had approved a disaster declaration for the state, paving the way for FEMA and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to provide emergency assistance if needed. Source

    Shall refrain from editorializing.

  94. 94
    lgerard says:

    I’ll bet some of those Silent Sam supporters cried when they saw the Iraqis tear down that Saddam Hussein statue

    It was history!!

  95. 95
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: Do you need paper towels?

  96. 96
    Platonailedit says:

    @Mary G:

    “A lot of times they looked bored, and other times they catnapped – at least two of them did,” Duncan said. “They seemed very relaxed, feet up on the table bars and they showed a little bit of almost disinterest to me, at times.”

    With a scoldy ‘but fair’ judge right there? Typical trumpturd lying pos. With her blatant bias, how did she even make it into the panel?

  97. 97
    cmorenc says:

    @NCSteve:

    @cain:See reactionary screed above. Only fired off his gun when a virgin walked by.

    You’re probably referring to my post above (post #69), and deliberately mischaracterizing it. My central point was that self-action by protesters to tear down the statues is counterproductive to your ultimate goal: 1) the predominant public perception is that the protesters are violent vandals, not legitimate civil rights protesters. 2) Pulling down the statues by force breathes life back into symbols that had hitherto been forgotten in plain sight by most of the citizenry. 3) the people you satisfy by pulling the statues down were already firmly on your side – you don’t bring others on-board with removal of the statues going about it this way. 4) you’re thereby creating martyr symbolism for the mouth-breathers and racists among the population to feed on, not killing it off.

    It would be far better to go about this by galvanizing a majority of current UNC students and a large number of alums to press for removal of the statue. I would support that, and it would be far more meaningful if the University itself voluntarily (under pressure) removed the statue.

  98. 98

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m sure Trump will be by with paper towels soon.

  99. 99
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Platonailedit:

    Judge Ellis rammed Voir Dior through in less than half the time it would normally take from what I understand.

  100. 100
    hueyplong says:

    @cmorenc: I do not see a basis for your assumption that the people outraged about the demise of the statute “in this manner” are people who can be won over.

    It’s gone now, and after spending a while fulminating over it, the people who are outraged will be outraged about something else.

  101. 101
    hueyplong says:

    @celticdragonchick: I’d guess that a juror anxious to brag about her exploits on Fox News is someone who would have been willing to conceal her biases regardless of how long the voir dire process took.

    Ellis wasn’t the best ever, but I’m not sure this juror’s presence is on him.

  102. 102
    Jay says:

    @hueyplong:

    Yup x 1 million

  103. 103
    Hkedi [Kang T. Q.] says:

    So a legal question for a friend… are voir dire questions taken under oath? In this day and age that might be an intelligent change to the legal process if it doesn’t already happen.

  104. 104
    Gary K says:

    @celticdragonchick: Voir Dior? The judge didn’t even let them use the catwalk!

  105. 105
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @Jay: I love the “more people would agree with you if you weren’t so distasteful” argument when it comes to public monuments to the Confederacy.

    As a black man in Louisana, it makes me chuckle in that way where you’re trying not to scream bloody murder.

  106. 106

    @Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]:

    are voir dire questions taken under oath?

    Yes.

  107. 107
    Jay says:

    @BlueDWarrior:

    Yup, the comity police cometh.

  108. 108
    Mnemosyne says:

    @cmorenc:

    It would be far better to go about this by galvanizing a majority of current UNC students and a large number of alums to press for removal of the statue.

    I guess you missed the part where the North Carolina legislature made it illegal for any city, county, or public university to remove any Confederate memorial statue from its current place. So getting a majority of students and residents to want to remove it doesn’t do a lick of good because the state mandates that it stay, no matter what the people who have to look at it every day think.

    And, like it or not, when the government doesn’t give people any other choice but to break the law, they’re going to break the law.

  109. 109
    Jay says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Yup, shaming, shunning, then violent dissent,

  110. 110
    joel hanes says:

    @Yarrow:

    That’s why Mueller has arranged for a separate trial on state charges, which Trump cannot pardon.

  111. 111
    Gretchen says:

    My grandson is descended from North Carolina slave owners, an the family still owns the land that the plantation was on. I am descended from starving Irish peasants who survived the famine. But they didn’t leave Ireland until a generation after the Famine. What did they do to survive when so many didn’t? Past generations did horrible things, some just to survive, some to keep their advantage. It’s hard to know how to feel about that as a descendant Is it my fault? Should I feel ashamed of something I didn’t have a say in? I don’t know.

  112. 112
    joel hanes says:

    @cain:

    Ben Shapiro

  113. 113
    Jay says:

    @Gretchen:

    We can’t change the past. We can however, acknoledge and make amends.

    Victoria for example. The City has been working with First Nations to reconcile, on a huge array of past and present issues. Almost 3 dozen First Nations groups have engaged, from housing, education, jobs to policing.

    Unforunately, the hundreds of First Nations delegates to the Commitee’s have had to, several times a day, walk past a hailographic statue of Sir John A.

    He’s a chief architect of Confederation, the first Prime Minister,

    But also the guy who united Two Nations, omitting and repressing the other 2, the father of the Residential School system, the attempts to extinguish First Nations culture, and the racist Indian Act.

    So, Victoria pulled the statue and put it in storage, then erected a plaque, explaining why it was moved.

    Unfortunately, the plaque keeps getting vandalized by Nazi’s.

  114. 114
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    As an Af-Am, I’m tired of the handwringing about “heritage” when it comes to finally pulling down these appalling memorials to exploitation and treason. I’m sorry that Confederates had ancestors who fought (perhaps even heroically) for shitty leadership and an even shittier cause.

    Fighting for keeping slavery going was no different than those who fought for Hitler, or General Custer at Little Big Horn, or those who fought in Namibia for the Apartheid South African Army. Good people can fight for terrible causes and even worse people. But compassion means at least acknowledging that fact, not raising statues or leaving them up to those causes and people.

    Also, why should those taxpayers descended from the victims pay for and endure the memorialization of their oppressors, walking past their statues everyday? What does that say about feeling wanted and welcome and a full citizen? When a pile of granite and bronze has more protection and care, then the message is clear; the past isn’t really over. And we don’t care about your past suffering.

  115. 115
  116. 116
    Barbara says:

    @Aleta: I lived on Carr Street in Chapel Hill. Never knew where the name came from.

  117. 117
    Antonius says:

    Yosemite Sam?

  118. 118
    Barbara says:

    @celticdragonchick: Rapid voir dire is the norm in the ED Va. This juror was biased but she still voted to convict. She makes it harder for defense lawyers to argue that Manafort’s conviction was tainted by bias. She did her job as a juror so I wouldn’t waste a lot of time on her.

  119. 119
    Gvg says:

    treason statues are about intimidating black citizens today. “Know your place, or else” is a threat. Or else is and was breaking the law. You are either blind, or defending thuggish threats on purpose. Look in your own mirror and try harder to imagine being in someone else’s shoes instead of being so stuck in your own point of view. How would you like a statue that said “if you make a black person upset, fairly or unfairly, they get to whip you and the law won’t stop them”? Then imagine being told to ignore the statue, and get over it, that it is counter productive to rip it down.

  120. 120
    AM in NC says:

    @Shell: Well the story everyone gets told as a freshman (or at least the story that was told while I was at school) is that Silent Sam is silent because he’s waiting for a virgin to walk by, at which point he would shoot the rifle he is holding. Car backfires on Franklin Street lead to a lot of finger pointing and questions around who’s the virgin in the group.

  121. 121
    Citizen_X says:

    BRONZE LIVES MATTER!

  122. 122
    Citizen_X says:

    I’ll add that we are supposed to cheer at the colonists tearing down George III’s statue in NYC, at Soviets and eastern Europeans tearing down Lenin’s statue, at Iraqis–er, American troops–tearing down Saddam’s statue, but a monument to our enemy a century and a half ago is sacred? Bullshit.

  123. 123
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    Various people: Silent Sam is silent because he has no ammo for his gun. It was a Thing.

    Several months ago, when people started asking the UNC fans “but what about Silent Sam?”, I made the argument that he belonged in a museum as part of a display that talked about it being an unusual example of this type of installation. It was an actual sculpture instead of a mass-produced tchochke. We know the name of the young man who was the model. Install him in a museum with all that plus a nice, big, can’t-miss-it display about the speech and Carr, in context and surrounded by the history of Jim Crow and lynchings. Throw in one of two of the mass-produced pieces as contrast.

    The town square obelisks and the tchochkes that top them? Pull the racist “Anglo-Saxon savior” stuff off, melt down the tchochke and recast it as a modern soldier, turn them into monuments to all the local soldiers from all the wars.

  124. 124
    The Pale Scot says:

    @Mary G:

    now the Oval is full of water

    God, I hope there’s no hurricanes this year, ’cause we be fucked

  125. 125
    The Pale Scot says:

    @cmorenc:

    The predominant public perception among bigots is that the protesters are violent vandals,

  126. 126
    The Pale Scot says:

    @The Pale Scot: Someday I’ll figure out how to use the strikethrough tag

  127. 127
    J R in WV says:

    @tobie:

    That the vote on ten counts was 11-1 does make you wonder about that one juror.

    How reasonable is a juror who is disagreeing with 11 other jurors? Not very. I was on a Jury in that position, except we were 11-1 in favor of acquital, and it took hours to explain that the hold out for guilty was being unreasonable. On my birthday. We finally broke out of the courthouse about 11:30, I are my slice of birthday cake the day after my birthday!

  128. 128
    Barbara says:

    @cmorenc: It is always better when things happen by consensus but consensus seems more remote than ever for most issues involving civil rights. My association with UNC is limited, I lived in Chapel Hill for a while and attended a few classes and had a summer internship there. I don’t even know where this statue is. Nonetheless, I find it grotesque that in 2015 a legislature in a southern state was willing to protect any and all confederate monuments and memorials. You think that isn’t a thumb in the eye of African Americans living in North Carolina and attending UNC-CH? “We allow you here at our sufferance and white people are still the most important.” I hated that aspect of living in the South. Most of the white southerners I ran into didn’t even notice it, but I was from the North, and for all the bigotry and racism that exists there, and it does, there is nothing like this fixed legal firmament that is in place to remind you every day that whites rule. So, you know, at the very least, seeing a bunch of kids toppling a statue and the overwhelming majority of students cheering is a good and useful reminder to the legislature that they might be able stick their finger in the dyke for a little while longer but they are fast manufacturing their own obsolescence.

  129. 129
    J R in WV says:

    @Platonailedit:

    Typical trumpturd lying pos. With her blatant bias, how did she even make it into the panel?

    Ya think she nay have lied a little on the questionaire?

  130. 130
    J R in WV says:

    @The Pale Scot:

    Someday I’ll figure out how to use the strikethrough tag

    Looks like you have the strikethrough tag down pat. It’s more likely the /strikethrough (end /strikethrough) tag you may have trouble with!

    ;-)

  131. 131
    NCSteve says:

    @Jay: @cmorenc: Thing is, this sounds like the modern version of the Atticus Finch white southern “moderate” position on segregation that made no progress at all but gave white southern liberals comfort about the nothing that was happening.

  132. 132
    NCSteve says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: I find it odd that despite having lived in Chapel Hill for six years, went to school there and never heard that version of the name.

  133. 133
    Barbara says:

    @NCSteve: I had the same reaction. Those moderate Southerners who rankled at the idea of “outsiders” coming in and riling up “their” blacks, and promising that progress would come in due course. And don’t forget, this occurred after a concerted effort by the NC legislature to target “with surgical precision” the ability of African Americans to vote at all, the day after Justice John Roberts expressed certainty that racism no longer exists.

  134. 134
    StringOnAStick says:

    I got a notice for jury duty a month ago, but when the day came to check if my assigned number meant I had to show up, I wasn’t in the selected group and was dismissed. Dang it, I really wanted to serve on a jury, it’s been almost 40 years since I did and I find law (and new experiences in general) interesting! I suppose even wanting to serve on a jury would get me tossed on the first set of challenges.

  135. 135
    Mike in NC says:

    People outside of NC wouldn’t be familiar with Thom Goolsby, but he was a major scumbag state senator and like every Republican in the NC General Assembly, an enthusiastic neo-Confederate asshole.

  136. 136
    John says:

    The best way to assess the sincerity of Neo-Confederates is to ask how they would feel if Japanese-Americans started erecting statues to Tojo and Yamamoto as a way to celebrate their heritage. It’s been over 70 years since WWII, more than the time that elapsed between the end of the War of Southern Aggression in Defense of Slavery and the erection of Silent Sam. Isn’t about time to honor the fallen heroes of Japan? There were good people on both sides, I’m sure.

  137. 137
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @NCSteve: The “no ammo” explanation? You probably wouldn’t have heard it on campus. It’s not well known outside of the monument geeks; I heard about it in a genealogy class on interpreting symbols on grave markers.

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