Thursday Morning Open Thread: Sail On, Sail On, O Mighty Ship of State!

Longfellow published the poem quoted in Cohen’s song in 1849, another bad divided era of American history. We survived the inevitable conflict that was brewing then, and if we have the same courage and dedication, we’ll survive this one as well. (Hopefully with less bloodshed, since we’ve got that earlier example to remind us.)

From the Washington Post, “Sharice Davids, who sees past discrimination as her asset, could become the first gay Native American in Congress”:

If elected in November, she would be the first gay Native American to claim a seat in the Capitol’s chambers. She would also become the first openly gay person to represent Kansas in federal office and possibly one of the first two Native American women to enter Congress. Deb Haaland, a Democratic nominee in New Mexico, is a member of the Laguna Pueblo tribe; Davids is a member of the Ho-Chunk Nation of Wisconsin.

The history-making potential of Davids’s candidacy is not the focal point of her pitch to voters. After all, this is Kansas, where only a slim majority of people said they supported same-sex marriage in polling conducted last year.

“I definitely think there are quite a few people who are excited about that, but the thing I hear more often is that people are excited about electing someone who just has a shared experience,” Davids, 38, said, still basking in her victory in last week’s six-way primary…

Enumerating the experiences she shares with Kansans, Davids described being raised by a single mother, being first in her family to attend university, starting out at community college and having to work while in school, whether as a carhop at a Sonic Drive-In or as a bartender at a Marriott.

At first, she didn’t even note her sexual orientation — the reason, said Brett Hoedl, chairman of the Kansas City Metro chapter of Equality Kansas, that so many gay voters placed their trust in her.

“It’s one thing to fight for someone else’s rights versus having someone who has experienced discrimination or experienced the issues that the LGBT community has faced,” Hoedl said. This desire, to have someone of your identity representing you, is driving a surge of gay candidates seeking office this year, just as it’s driving a surge of female and Muslim candidates, he said. “When you look at the rhetoric coming out of this administration, and some of the policies getting rolled back,” he said, “there’s a need to actually have these folks in office.”…

At the beginning of the year, when Davids looked at the slate of candidates vying to take on Yoder — a fellow attorney who was elected to the Kansas House of Representatives in 2002, the same year he earned his law degree — she wasn’t satisfied, she said. There was no woman in the race, for one. “I remember looking around and thinking, ‘who is a strong woman who could get into this race?’ I felt like since I was asking the question, I should be part of the solution.”…

Goal Thermometer

138 replies
  1. 1
    OzarkHillbilly says:


  2. 2
    prostratedragon says:

    I grew up with the Pilgrim Hymnal, from which we regularly sang bracing stuff by such as J.R. Lowell from Longfellow’s era, like this and this.

  3. 3
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  4. 4
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    One loves Ms. Collins and all, but Cohen singing Cohen is best.

  5. 5
    NotMax says:

    After reading such an ebullient review, have carved a mental note to be on the lookout for the film. Mentioning it in case any others might be similarly inclined.

    Dawson City: Frozen Time is nominally a documentary—it is a documentary—but describing it as a documentary is something like describing Ulysses as a travel guide to Dublin. The film is transfixing, an utterly singular compound of the bizarre, the richly informative, the thrilling, the horrifying, the goofy, the tragic, and the flat-out gorgeous.

  6. 6
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    It’s a tough time for mayonnaise. Over the last few decades, foreign condiments have been coming in droves to the US and stealing all the sandwiches. And it’s not just the migrants attacking America’s good, old-fashioned nutritional values; the gays are also at it. One of the top items on the Gay Agenda (US edition) is the complete elimination of mayonnaise from the American diet. We have come for your wedding cakes and now we are intent on queering your condiments. If something isn’t done soon, the mayonnaise Americans know and love won’t exist any more. Instead, everyone will be eating politically correct “identity condiments”.

    Say what?????

    Please don’t deport the messenger. I did not invent the notion of “identity condiments”, though I rather wish I had – I am simply filling you in on a viral Philadelphia magazine article called How Millennials Killed Mayonnaise. “The inexorable rise of identity condiments has led to hard times for the most American of foodstuffs,” Sandy Hingston writes. “And that’s a shame.”

    The horror!

    If mayonnaise has achieved such remarkable success simply because it is a superior condiment, why should it be threatened by the appearance of a variety of different condiments, you might ask? Shouldn’t it relish (no pun intended) the new competition? Rather than explaining this with a rational argument, Hingston resorts to another familiar trope: the idea that white people are now an oppressed minority unwelcome in their own country.

    “I thought young people today were supposed to be all about inclusion – about kindness and compassion and making other people feel welcome,” she laments. “So how about you include a little mayo in your picnic fare?”

    You know, despite all the other “identity condiments” available today, I’m pretty sure you’ll still find that mayonnaise over-indexes in people’s picnic fare.

    Probably everyone here already knows of this latest threat to America, I am always the last to know these things, but I liked the take down.

  7. 7
    raven says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: And Sean Connery is THE James Bond!

  8. 8
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Hey, I got a call from DeSoto, MO yesterday. That ain’t you is it?

  9. 9
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Mayo is evil.

    @raven: I won’t argue.

  10. 10
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @raven: A hop, skip, and a jump away. Jefferson Co, the county east of Washington Co.

    ETA I am in NW Washington Co, about halfway between Sullivan and Richwoods.

  11. 11
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  12. 12
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    Good morning! ☕

  13. 13
    satby says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning 😊!

    @OzarkHillbilly: 😘

    As long as it’s real mayo, not that other stuff, it’s ok in my book. Miracle whip is of the devil.

  14. 14
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @satby: You are wrong.

  15. 15
    Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman) says:


    What could be more American than a picnic with mayonnaise and Sal Monella?

  16. 16
    p.a says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Wasn’t that a bit of a Seinfeld meme: salsa becoming the most popular condiment?

    First they came for the ketchup, but I did nothing because I’m a mustard guy…

    (I know spoofing Niemöller’s words is bad. Couldn’t resist.)

  17. 17
    Amir Khalid says:

    The phrase “identity condiment” makes me think of people carrying around a personal bottle of sriracha/Worcestershire sauce/ketchup/mayo/hoisin/whatever with their photo and an ID number on the label, to be shown when boarding flights or voting.

  18. 18
    Baud says:

    @Amir Khalid: Don’t give Kobach any ideas.

  19. 19
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: Meh. Miracle whip has it’s uses. Strictly speaking, it is not a substitute (it’s called “salad dressing” for a reason). Mayo as a condiment is really rather boring, but used in conjunction with other things, it works. My wife makes a killer garlic mayo from scratch that I dearly love on elote’s.

    @Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman): I made Sal’s acquaintance in a MO roadside fish shack. He is not good company.

  20. 20
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Amir Khalid: One year when my son went to summer camp we packed him his own shaker of Tony Chachere’s Creole Seasoning (“Great On Everything”)

  21. 21
    evodevo says:

    @satby: Yes. Kraft mayo, or nothing. Miracle Whip cannot pass …

  22. 22
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @p.a: I don’t know, never watched much Seinfeld, but it sounds like him.

  23. 23
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @NotMax: “ebullient review” indeed. The last 2 paras really sell it:

    The film’s essence is echo, paradox, allusion—the lust for gold that drove hundreds of thousands toward the top of the world only to perish; film, the history-altering substance that records, informs, preserves, gives joy, consumes itself, and kills; Dawson City, the town that sprang up on frozen land, flourishing by impoverishing another population; the cyclical catastrophes from which it continued to rebuild itself. Not only are both nitrate film and Dawson City expressions of humanity’s irrepressible creativity, they are also both expressions of humanity’s irrepressible destructiveness.

    It’s chastening to witness the pliant material of history as it’s being made and at the same time what that history has come to mean and what it has brought into being. That the Dawson City archive made its way to us through the frozen earth reminds us how inestimably much vanishes. What endures casts an ephemeral shadow—that insistent, spectral commentator, the future, which asks us to consider what subsequent generations will see in surviving records of our own life that is invisible to us now.

  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @NotMax: I gave up on reading Ulysses.

  25. 25
    debbie says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Agreed! There’s far more to singing than hitting all the notes correctly. (Though I do love Judy Collins.)

  26. 26
    MomSense says:


    Just say no to mayo.

  27. 27
    debbie says:


    Seconded. Miracle Whip is appalling stuff.

  28. 28
    satby says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: to be honest, I seldom use mayo either, and I am not a millenial.
    So I should be agnostic in this debate.

  29. 29
    satby says:

    @debbie: it’s the extra sugar that turns me off.

  30. 30
    Baud says:

    @MomSense: I did a long time ago.

  31. 31
    debbie says:


    My grandmother (Southern) swore by Miracle Whip. To quote someone else, blech.

    I did try Dukes. It’s not bad, but I still like Hellemn’s best.

  32. 32
    HeleninEire says:

    @Baud: Everyone did.

  33. 33
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    I love the divide between the users of Mayo and the users of Miracle Whip. Am I the only person in the world who uses both?

  34. 34
    debbie says:


    Depends. Which would you use with peanut butter?

  35. 35
    satby says:

    In my experience, Southern cooking ruins a lot of dishes with too much sugar.
    But then there is pecan pie. Exception to every rule.

  36. 36
    hueyplong says:

    Was it Mr Johnson who said the loudest yelps for mayo protection come from slave drivers?

  37. 37
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: Dill pickles. (really really good) Or apple.

  38. 38
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @satby: Garrison Keiller did the funniest of skits on southern cooking. “Deep fried salad” was among the list of deep fried things.

  39. 39

    @OzarkHillbilly: That article is a joke, right?

    “I thought young people today were supposed to be all about inclusion – about kindness and compassion and making other people feel welcome,” she laments. “So how about you include a little mayo in your picnic fare?”

    That can’t be on the level. It just can’t.

  40. 40
    Haroldo says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Not horribly far from Johnson’s Shut-Ins! That was possibly my favorite place to go as a sprout, many years ago. I hope time and people have not ravaged it too much.

  41. 41
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Actually she appears to be serious (the Philadelphia mag article). It’s more white grievance about the changing of America. My first link takes you to the takedown of it. It’s funny.

  42. 42
    Lapassionara says:

    @debbie: I think Duke’s is made without sugar, like in the old days. But it tastes oily to me. I usually ask for no mayo on my sandwiches when purchasing, as diner cooks want to slather it on, which is yuck. But how do you eat a “MLT” without a little mayo?

    Good morning, everyone.

  43. 43
    Betty Cracker says:

    I have a strategic mayo reserve in my laundry room/pantry. Duke’s will do in a pinch, but Hellmann’s is the one true mayo. The main ingredient in Miracle Whip is Satan’s semen.

  44. 44
    JPL says:

    Mayo is good with homemade fries. Don’t mock me unless you have tried it.

  45. 45
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Hmm, wonder who it was?

  46. 46
    Haroldo says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: There was a debate on this very subject in the blog “Every Day Should be Saturday” ( The consensus was it was, indeed, on the level. Further investigation showed the author of this piece was a semi-prolific writer of romances, for what that’s worth.

  47. 47
    Haroldo says:

    @Betty Cracker: Your wisdom is surpassed only by your ability to turn a phrase. Hellman’s is the Way, the Truth, and the Light.

  48. 48
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Haroldo: Time and people have had their way with it (Johnson Shut ins were always too crowded for me) but they were nothing compared to Ameren:

    Five injured, park destroyed in dam break

    LESTERVILLE – Five people were injured and a park was destroyed when a malfunction occurred at Ameren’s Taum Sauk power plant, causing the upper reservoir to release a billion gallons of water. This morning Gov. Matt Blunt signed two State of Emergency Disaster Executive Orders authorizing state agencies and the Missouri National Guard to respond to local requests resulting from the reservoir failure. The reservoir emptied within about 12 minutes through a V-shaped, 600-foot-wide breach which authorities believe occurred about 5:30 a.m. Wednesday. Firefighters immediately began searching for those who were swept away in the water.
    …………………The reservoir, built in 1963, was dug out of the top of 1,590-foot Profit Mountain, with huge, sloping, 90-foot-high walls made of the stone removed from the peak. The reservoir – the upper of two reservoirs at the hydroelectric plant – was lined with concrete and asphalt.

    Normally, water released from the reservoir rushes down a 7,000-foot shaft and tunnel and spins the turbines to generate electricity. In Wednesday’s accident, water gushed through the breach and streamed down the side of the mountain and into a valley, draining the reservoir like a bathtub.

    The shut-ins of course remain but the park will never be the same, at least not in my lifetime. It wiped out everything like a giant eraser. They have rebuilt all the buildings, new headquarters/visitor center, maintenance sheds etc. but where the flood hit all the trees are gone. Boulders as big as Buicks remain where the waters left them.

  49. 49

    Put mayonnaise on your baked and mashed up potato. LOTS of mayo. Trust me. You will never think of using butter or (yech) sour cream on potatoes again. This is one of my absolute favorite dishes. Sprinkled generously with herbs and salt mix and black pepper.

    For the record, and I will email site fixer, yesterday I commented, had to fill in name and email, told it to remember me. Today, it did NOT remember me, and no, I am not cleaning cache or flushing cookies. I do not even use NoScript anymore in FireFox, the hassle just became too great. I do use AdBlock, but disable it on Balloon-Juice.

  50. 50
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @raven: Nobody I know, as I currently don’t know anyone in that area.

  51. 51
    Lee says:

    Apparently the media is fighting back against Trump’s “enemies of the people”

    I am sympathetic to their plight, but if they don’t recognize that they are partially to blame for this situation then I really don’t feel too sorry for them.

    For decades the press was afraid to call out the lies of the GOP because they wanted to avoid being labeled a ‘liberal media’. Trump’s labeling them ‘enemies of the people’ is just the natural evolution of the process they played a large part in.

  52. 52
    Anne Laurie says:

    Don’t use mayo on my sandwiches, but I tried a bottle of Kewpie mayo on a whim — really makes an excellent potato salad!

  53. 53
    Booger says:

    @Baud: Hah! I’ve read the first chapter of Ulysses dozens of times! Even the first chapter of the literal Cliff Notes version!

  54. 54
    Tarragon says:


    Mayo is good with homemade fries.

    It is. But malt vinegar is better.

  55. 55
    Kay says:

    Someone please alert QAnon:

    Steve Bannon shared a secret meeting with reviled billionaire pedophile Jeffrey ­Epstein at the financier’s notorious Upper East Side mansion.
    Former White House chief strategist Bannon was spotted stepping out of his SUV and entering the registered sex offender’s sprawling 21,000-square-foot mansion at 9 E. 71st St. shortly before 7 a.m. Wednesday.
    Epstein’s ­palatial pad is one of his homes where young girls were allegedly brought in to perform massages and used as “sex slaves.”
    We assume Bannon wasn’t there for a massage.
    Sources speculate that the disgraced ­Epstein wants to use his millions to work his way close to political power again.

    Bannon is starting a grift/political marketing organization to “save Trump” .

  56. 56
    Chyron HR says:


    Apparently the media is fighting back against Trump’s “enemies of the people” wants Trump to abide by the covenant where the media blatantly supports the GOP and the GOP only directs the mob’s hate at gays, blacks, and other acceptably marginalized targets.

  57. 57
    Haroldo says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Thanks for the information – I was totally unaware of that. And I’m sure that the Mighty Mouse (I think it was called) roller coaster at Chain of Rocks Amusement Park is no more. And without looking, I’m guessing that amusement park is no more also. Ah well….we grow old, we grow old.

  58. 58
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Pete Souza’s instagram account is worth a daily visit even if I only get there once a week or so.

  59. 59

    If you are so inclined, my publisher has the kindle of my new book up for pre-order for $3.99. This is the book inspired by the old TV show Psyche. The character fakes telling fortunes and winds up as the royal (fake) fortune teller trying to avert an assassination.

  60. 60
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Haroldo: The old Chain of Rocks bridge is still there! Now part of a biking trail. The old water pumping station is still there too. I rather doubt it is still operating. I’d give my left eye tooth to get inside it.

  61. 61
    Steeplejack says:


    It is known that the current version of the remember-tron times out after about 30 minutes without a comment.

  62. 62
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    Pastafarianism is not a religion, Dutch court rules And to think I once liked the Dutch.

  63. 63
  64. 64
    raven says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’ve always been fascinated by that. I remember the bridge from our move to LA in 1957!

  65. 65
    Platonailedit says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Their bothsiderism has now both sides wanting them dead. Karma.

    Just caught The Post yesterday where they show in the end, nixon ranting about banning wapo. The traitorous turd is 1000 times worse than that punk and yet the media minions played footsie with him. Time to pay.

  66. 66
    Jeffro says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: @Omnes Omnibus: @JPL:

    Mayo is great…you can’t have a BLT without some Duke’s!!

    However, Sriracha mayo is beyond great. It’s truly a gift from the FSM (speaking of Pastafarianism ;)

    In other news, I see that John Brennan has fired back: Trumpov’s Claims of ‘No Collusion’ are Hogwash. Go get ’em John!

    …The already challenging work of the American intelligence and law enforcement communities was made more difficult in late July 2016, however, when Mr. Trump, then a presidential candidate, publicly called upon Russia to find the missing emails of Mrs. Clinton. By issuing such a statement, Mr. Trump was not only encouraging a foreign nation to collect intelligence against a United States citizen, but also openly authorizing his followers to work with our primary global adversary against his political opponent.

    Such a public clarion call certainly makes one wonder what Mr. Trump privately encouraged his advisers to do — and what they actually did — to win the election. While I had deep insight into Russian activities during the 2016 election, I now am aware — thanks to the reporting of an open and free press — of many more of the highly suspicious dalliances of some American citizens with people affiliated with the Russian intelligence services.

    Mr. Trump’s claims of no collusion are, in a word, hogwash.

    The only questions that remain are whether the collusion that took place constituted criminally liable conspiracy, whether obstruction of justice occurred to cover up any collusion or conspiracy, and how many members of “Trump Incorporated” attempted to defraud the government by laundering and concealing the movement of money into their pockets. A jury is about to deliberate bank and tax fraud charges against one of those people, Paul Manafort, Mr. Trump’s former campaign chairman. And the campaign’s former deputy chairman, Rick Gates, has pleaded guilty to financial fraud and lying to investigators…

    I think he’s just getting started, too…he’s already tweeted that ‘once the extent of your betrayal of America is fully known, you’ll be regarded as our worst president’…something to that effect anyway! GO JOHN GO!

  67. 67
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Why is Epstein not living in jail instead of a palatial mansion? Or huddled under a bridge, his assets sold off to compensate his victims? Ha, just kidding, of course — he’s rich!

  68. 68
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    Aargh. Please delete #63.

    Tried to hand-edit an HTML tag and obviously screwed it up about sixteen different ways.

    It is impossible to put in a link from a phone. And also on the phone I have no editing, no delete capability, no buttons to insert HTML tags, and no memory of my nym.

    Otherwise the mobile version seems to be OK.

    No nym memory on the laptop (Firefox, MacAir, OS X 10.13) but at least the browser caches the info.

  69. 69
    The Pale Scot says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: The Dutch, still bloody Calvinists

  70. 70

    @Jeffro: I know it sounds bizarre, but I still think Trump is surprised Brennan can publish stuff like that after Trump pulled his security clearance.

  71. 71
    MomSense says:

    One kid uses a bit of pesto on his sandwiches, another uses a thin spread of hummus, and the third uses all sorts of spreads but not mayo.

    If you put mayo in your lobster roll, beware. Butter, lemon juice, a bit of zest, and a bit of fresh herbs on the top. Chervil or chives are tasty. They use mayo at the lobster shacks so they can boil and pick the lobsters waaaay in advance and mix them with mayo. If you want fresh lobster for your lobster roll, do not order one made with mayo.

  72. 72
    Jeffro says:

    @Anne Laurie: Speaking of potato salad, I made some sweet-potato potato salad last week (w/ blue cheese crumbles, light sour cream, light Duke’s, and scallions) – wow was that awesome! I think the recipe was in Giant’s ‘Savory’ magazine.

  73. 73
    Steeplejack says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Epic link fail. Fixed: “Recipes so awful we had to make them.”

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    You can always put in a “naked” link. Just copy and paste it like regular text.

  74. 74
    Jeffro says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: It’s not bizarre at all – this is a guy who doesn’t get time zones, after all. He probably thinks Air Force One flies by magic incantation or something.

    It’ll drive him even more nuts to see that he’s made a bad situation worse for himself, and that’s great news. The media is even on to the “this happened three weeks ago…why are you releasing this info now? Is it because of Omarosa’s revelations?” angle, which is just so sweet.

  75. 75
    Zinsky says:

    Ilhan Omar, a Muslim refugee, is poised to take Keith Ellison’s seat in Minnesota’s 5th Congressional District. She is a beautiful, intelligent woman whose smile can light up a room. She personifies the grace and beauty that immigrants bring to this country and fuck Stephen Miller, Donald Trump and anyone else who thinks otherwise!

    BTW – Judy Collins is still a stunningly beautiful woman and her eyes still melt my heart….

  76. 76
    p.a. says:

    Hellmans. Is Cain’s still in business? Their mayo is good. Liked Miracle Whip as a kid. Don’t use mayo at home anymore, may get it at a sandwich shop as a splurge. I know people who get mayo on an Italian GRINDER. Sacrilege! Chix salad, ham salad, tater salad require it, but tuna salad, mac salad do ok with vinagrettes. It’s ok on fries, but malt vinegar is best.

  77. 77
    Elizabelle says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Having my coffee. Hold the mayo.

    Interesting article. Two new vocabulary words: omphalos and esculent. Like we see those every day.

    There’s still Sriracha mayo, wasabi mayo, mayo with shallots and parsley … do not count mayo out. Interesting to think of it, though, as from the Mayo and Sputnik era. Jello salads did not survive. But mayo sort of does — and certainly in the South. (Gotta be Hellman’s in this house.)

    Also a great point on how recent immigrants (used to?) want to assimilate culinarily somewhat, at least outside the home. Actually, we are better as a melting pot for all the scrumptious food offerings we enjoy now.

    Good ol’ mayo has become the Taylor Swift of condiments.

    But that’s harsh! But this is fascinating:

    In 1912, the German-immigrant owner of an Upper West Side deli, Richard Hellmann, began to sell mayonnaise packed in jars decorated with three blue ribbons, according to culinary historian Andrew Smith. These jars differed from those of Hellmann’s condiment competitors in one vital way: They had wide mouths, enabling customers to get big-ass spoons inside.

    Packaging innovation, although the product was superior, too.

  78. 78
    Steeplejack says:


    Pesto is a good spread. One place I go to has a tasty sub with chicken breast, bacon, avocado, melted Brie, pesto, lettuce and tomato on a crunchy roll.

  79. 79
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @Steeplejack: I just googled for “horrible recipes”. What I was really looking for, and I’m sure the BJ commentariat has the relevant links, was horrible 50s-60s recipes made with mayo. I’m sure there’s a lime jello-mayo-mold out there somewhere.

    When I was a kid, our adopted grandma (I never knew my actual grandmother and my parents’ first landlady became our de facto grandma) used to serve a lime jello mold that had lettuce in it. It was surprisingly good actually, if you were a kid in the 60s and exposed to only what the 60s offered. I’m pretty sure it had no mayo in it also, too.

  80. 80
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    Also in mayo’s defense, I’ve heard that real mayo, the kind you make yourself fresh from eggs, is pretty darned good. My daughter, whose food snob tastes were educated in Brooklyn and Philly (as an adult so I had nothing to do with it) swears by it.

  81. 81
    WaterGirl says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I love that, thanks for posting!

    edit: arghh. After posting on the other thread, I forgot to refresh the page on all the open BJ tags so I would get my nym etc on all the tabs.

    edit 2: and then BJ told me I had a typo in my email address, so I had to fix that, post my comment again, and THEN go back and refresh all the open tabs again. On the bright side, I haven’t yet read of anything Trump did overnight to further destroy our democracy and turn this into a banana republic.

  82. 82
    Haroldo says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Water Pumping Station / Dentist’s Office: an idea whose time has come.

  83. 83
    WaterGirl says:

    @MomSense: Just say no to all those white foods: mayo, miracle whip, sour cream, cream cheese, drinking milk.

    if, however, you add chocolate to milk, then I like it. If you add a bunch of sugar and turn cream cheese into cheese cake with sour cream on top (also sugared) then I like it.

    But there is no redeeming either mayo or miracle whip.

    edit: Ice cream, I forgot about ice cream. Yum. And custard and pudding, double yum. Apparently it’s all about the sugar.

  84. 84
    Elizabelle says:

    @Steeplejack: Wow, those were awful. Liked this reader comment appended to your post:

    I credit lime jello and carrot shred “salad” with pushing me to leave home and get my first apartment. Even though I paid just as much room and board to my parents as my brother did when I started working, meals were planned to his schedule. My meal was just shoved in the oven to keep warm – sometimes for hours – until I got home from work. The final straw was when there was lime and carrot jello salad on the plate and my mother didn’t bother to remove it before putting it in the oven. The whole meal, swimming in lime jello. Mmmmm, thanks Mom!

    We had this jello salad that I loved. Think it was lemon or orange jello with shredded carrots and crushed pineapple; suspect Mom might have made it with the pineapple liquid. Serve it with a dollop of Hellman’s. My brother in law was incredulous we were eating it.

    Kind of would like to make that again … I think Mom might have served it with baked ham and scalloped potatoes and asparagus. Pretty much Easter dinner. It was festive.

  85. 85
    Elizabelle says:

    @NotMax: That movie was at a recent film festival; didn’t see it, because it didn’t get such an ebullient promo piece.

    Would like to see it. Would bet the director is an artist with old film, and the soundtrack sounds like it’s good too …

  86. 86
    Jeffro says:

    The Goon Squad continues to dig in: Trumpov’s Lawyers Prepare to Fight Subpoena All The Way to The Supreme Court

    Rudolph W. Giuliani, President Trump’s lead lawyer for the ongoing Russia probe, said Wednesday that he is still awaiting a response from special counsel Robert S. Mueller III to the Trump team’s latest terms for a presidential interview, which were made last week in a letter that argued against Trump’s having to answer questions about his possible obstruction of justice.

    In the meantime, Trump’s lawyers are preparing to oppose a potential subpoena from Mueller for a Trump sit-down by drafting a rebuttal that could set off a dramatic fight in federal courts.

    “We would move to quash the subpoena,” Giuliani said in an interview. “And we’re pretty much finished with our memorandum opposing a subpoena.”

    Giuliani added that Trump’s attorneys are ready to “argue it before the Supreme Court, if it ever got there.”

    In recent weeks, Giuliani said members of Trump’s team have “had conversations” with Emmet T. Flood, a White House lawyer working on issues related to the federal investigation. He said Flood “would have a big role to play here and would assert presidential privilege” but declined to say more about those discussions.

    White House officials have privately said Flood has cautioned Trump and others about the unpredictability of a subpoena fight that could be decided by the Supreme Court. Such a case would be unprecedented. Independent counsel Kenneth W. Starr served President Bill Clinton with a subpoena to compel him to appear before a grand jury, but it was withdrawn after Clinton agreed to testify.

    Three quick thoughts:

    1) Innocent non-colluders do this all the time, amirite? Demonstrate their innocence not by throwing open the doors and testifying loud & clear, but by taking it to the Supremes? LOLOL

    2) Back in the good old bad old days of the Clinton Impeachment, I seem to remember my RWNJ dad and brother noting that “Clinton’s going to answer that [Ken Starr] subpoena or he can go right the hell to jail”. Hmm, I wonder why subpoenaing Trumpov would be any different? I think I’m gonna go ask them…

    3) To state the obvious: this kind of BS is yet another reason why non-Garland Brett Kavanaugh CANNOT be seated on the Supreme Court until the Mueller investigation has concluded. The president* is being investigated for conspiracy with a hostile foreign power against the Unites States…no WAY does he get to nominate the swing justice who could conceivably get him off the hook.

  87. 87
    WaterGirl says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Will that eventually be available on iBooks? (I don’t like the kindle app on my iPad.) If it does, throw up a flag and I will buy it. thanks. and congratulations!

    Forgot to say that the book premise sounds really fun.

  88. 88
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @WaterGirl: Two words: Bechamel sauce. Basic milk and white flour, but it can be pretty wonderful in some dishes. Like Greek moussaka. Or the amazing French sandwich called the croque monsieur (grilled ham and fancy-schmancy French cheese with white sauce).

  89. 89
    Elizabelle says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Love moussaka and croque monsieurs. Bring on the bechamel.

  90. 90
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Betty Cracker: LOL! And true. But how did you know about the secret ingredient?

  91. 91
    Steeplejack says:


    My mom used to make Jell-O salads, although I don’t remember any with mayonnaise. Hers had grapes and “fruit cocktail” bits suspended in them. Which now makes me wonder how you do that. I guess you have to let the Jell-O partially set so that all the solids don’t just drift to the bottom. My God, we’re losing part of our cultural heritage! Another food question to ask her when I’m in Las Vegas next month.

  92. 92
    OzarkHillbilly says:


    Also a great point on how recent immigrants (used to?) want to assimilate culinarily somewhat, at least outside the home.

    Immigrants always assimilate to some extent, and then tear their hair out as their children complete the process. My old man’s father and mother got off the boat in 1900 and ’04, One of the best parts of growing up in that very large and expanding family was all the foods they brought with them from the old countries. Along with the culinary delights from their own Slovenia, I grew up eating Hungarian, Polish, and Greek, all cooked in the old world ways. I wish to hell I had gotten more of those recipes. I treasure the few I did.

  93. 93

    Is people arguing about mayo, as a corner stone of their identity, white privilege?
    Mayo is the base, you add things to it to make it interesting. I make this killer dip/spread with mayo, crunchy peanut butter, sriracha garlic hot sauce and hot and sweet chili pepper sauce. Homemade or Hellman’s in a pinch.
    My favorite sandwich spread is the green chutney I make, with fresh ginger, mint, cilantro, green chilies and coconut. I like whole mustard seeds (in the tarka or phodni*) or ground mustard, I don’t like bottled mustard, too vinegary.

    Tarka or phodni is tempering the oil with dry spices and chilies and curry leaves. Mustard and cumin seeds are the most common ingredients.

  94. 94
    Betty Cracker says:

    My gran used to make an awful salad with grapes, walnuts, celery, apples and mayo — served on lettuce. It was gross, but I don’t blame poor innocent mayo for that abomination, any more than I’d blame a Chevy for being the getaway car in a bank heist.

  95. 95
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Mayonnaise, formerly called sauce mayonnaise or Mahonaisse is not American. It is French (though some say Spanish).

  96. 96
    WaterGirl says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: Is that basically the sauce in scalloped potatoes? Or au gratin potatoes (cheese added) or mac and cheese? Because I like all those. Interesting, though, no sugar!

  97. 97

    @OzarkHillbilly: Immigrants assimilate, I can no longer eat really hot stuff that folks in India from my neck of the woods would consider spicy but my food would still be too spicy for your average New England person.
    As an immigrant you are a part of many worlds yet an outsider.

    Dhobi ka kutta, na ghar ka na ghat ka (Washerman’s dog doesn’t belong at home nor the riverbank)

  98. 98
    Steeplejack says:


    I wish to hell I had gotten more of those recipes.

    This is one of my perennial “issues” with my mother. She was an excellent cook—raised as a “from scratch” Southern cook in Tennessee and then added to her repertoire as an Air Force wife traveling all over. I say “was”; she’s still alive, hale and hearty, but years ago she said she has “retired” from cooking, and it’s hard even to get her to talk about it. She’s not deliberately evasive, but she’s one of those maddening “Well, you put in a dab of this and a little of that and there you go” people.

    There are six or seven recipes, or just everyday things she made, that I’d really like to nail down while she’s still on the scene. I’m going out to Las Vegas next month to house- and dog-sit for my RWNJ brother while he goes on a three-week motorcycle trip, so I’ll have yet another opportunity to work on her.

  99. 99


    :“Well, you put in a dab of this and a little of that and there you go”

    My mother’s like that too. I have tried to reverse engineer her recipes with mixed success.

  100. 100
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: I am not a food snob but I can say that your daughter is undeniably right. My wife grew up making it and on special occasions still does. It is far superior to anything that comes out of a jar.

  101. 101
    Mel says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Sal gets around, and he’s bad company wherever he goes. I encountered him at a school festival bbq stand a couple of decades ago. Was chaperoning a busload of students on a “school fun day” to an amusement park when Sal made his presence known.

    It was a two hour bus ride and an 8 hour day at the park. Things got ugly…

  102. 102
    Steeplejack says:

    @Gelfling 545:

    This reminds me that Vivian Howard of A Chef’s Life said that mayonnaise is the “mother sauce” of Southern cuisine. I think Hellmann’s won the taste test on that episode.

  103. 103
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @WaterGirl: Bacon wrapped jalapenos, stuffed with cream cheese and cheddar is a gift from the Gods.

  104. 104
    Mel says:

    @Betty Cracker: “Waldorf Salad”?

  105. 105
    Steeplejack says:


    I’ve done that too. But the reverse engineering gets you only so far.

  106. 106
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    Done, and looking forward to reading it in a few weeks!

  107. 107
    Elizabelle says:

    @Steeplejack: That’s exactly how you do it. The jello has to partially set before you add the ingredients to be suspended.

  108. 108
    Steeplejack says:

    @schrodingers_cat, @Steeplejack:

    I am even considering the underhanded strategy of “cooking for her,” which will cause her to go into back-seat-driver mode and butt in when I’m “doing it wrong.” Just don’t know if I can take the emotional stress. LOL.

  109. 109
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @WaterGirl: Think so. You heat milk and stir in flour. Period. Can’t get more basic than that. Moussaka is a layered meat dish that I think of as a Greek version of lasagna (I’m sure Greeks would hate that description), and the top layer is pretty much scalloped potatoes.

  110. 110
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Gelfling 545: Don’t tell me, my immigrant wife makes it the old world Spanish way (with olive oil dribbled in while whipping with a powered whisk)


    (Washerman’s dog doesn’t belong at home nor the riverbank)

    I’ll have to tell my wife that. While she now calls the US home she always feels her immigrant status and when she goes home to Mallorca she feels herself to be an outsider.

  111. 111
    Elizabelle says:

    @Steeplejack: You should get those recipes. The backseat driver in the kitchen routine is an excellent strategy.

    My mom was good about sharing hers with us, because we loved her cooking.

    We have my grandmother’s traditional Christmas German fruit and nut bread recipe because my mom wrote the recipe down in the early 1960s. Grandma broke her wrist, and was a “handful of this, spoonful of that” cook, so my Mom got the recipe when she made the 12 or so loaves that year, under her mother’s tutelage. Sheer luck, or that particular take on the recipe would be gone.

    I regret not making it up more for the older relatives who have died off, one by one. Think we might be the only grandkids who have the recipe, and I will be sure to share it this year.

    Have one last aunt, my godmother, disappearing under a veil of Alzheimer’s. Will be sure to make up a few loaves for her. Maybe it will bring her back for a little while. Who knows.

    No mayonnaise anywhere near Schnitz Brot. None, nohow, no time.

  112. 112
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Steeplejack: I got several recipes from my mother, her own and some she stole, (learning to make poteca from my father’s mother, “Well you add in a pinch of this..” “Wait a minute, I need to measure that.”) We even had some of her cookbooks on her coffin at the wake and afterwards, the 5 surviving kids argued over who got which.

  113. 113
    Jeffro says:

    @Jeffro: WOW…I’m in shock…

    I forwarded that Post article to my brother and my dad with the following question:

    I do remember back during the days of the Endless Clinton Investigations, when Ken Starr subpoenaed President Clinton, you both were 100% certain and in agreement (with each other) that the president “had better answer that subpoaena or go straight to jail” (that’s as close to a direct quote as I can remember, but it is indeed close)…why should Trumpov be any different?

    And my dad got back to me with, “You recall correctly. No one above the law.”

    (jaw drop)

    It’s an anecdote, not data, but wow…the implications if it does turn out to be ‘data’ here…

  114. 114
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Mel: Oof. I’ve had it twice. Git it once at a Texas truckstop after crossing he border and everyone wanted some American food. Fought it all the way back to STL where I landed with a 105 fever. The 2nd time I was a gusher from both ends. Went to the hospital while sitting on a bucket and holding a pot in my lap. Had the wife go in and clear a path for me.

  115. 115
    Elizabelle says:

    RIP, Aretha.

    Another item on WaPost front page right now.

    Elizabeth Warren takes on corporate giants as she lays 2020 marker

    The senator has unveiled a proposal aimed at fundamentally recalibrating the mission of the biggest corporations, pushing them away from maximizing immediate returns for shareholders and executives and toward investing in longer-term value and sharing gains with workers.

    This is how you do it. You get the idea out there, get into conversation. The details will come into being in time.

    I am glad we can be talking about this. The FTF NY Times this morning, naturally, had another “Nancy Pelosi is doomed! — Democrats are running away from her!” article. Fuck those fuckers. They’re Republican whisperers, their crack ass political desk.

  116. 116
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Steeplejack: Heh.

  117. 117
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    JUst hearing that Aretha has died.

    RIP. What a loss.

  118. 118
    satby says:

    @Steeplejack: she’ll probably take over 😄.
    On the phone so can’t really search effectively, but there are measuring spoon sets that have spoons for “a dash” and “a schotch” < doubtful spelling.

  119. 119
    Steeplejack says:

    @Elizabelle, @OzarkHillbilly:

    I am a little concerned about Mom’s trove of cookbooks. In particular, she has a lot of Air Force “wives’ club” cookbooks (equivalent to Junior League cookbooks) that are rich sources of mid-century American cooks encountering and adapting regional and foreign cuisines—for better or worse. Many of the recipes are horrible, of course, but a surprising number are really good.

    My brother here in Washington, the squire of Sighthound Hall, is a good cook, and we’re on the same page about the cookbooks. But the RWNJ brother on site in Las Vegas would definitely be a threat to carelessly jettison them in some “estate sale” or such. I hope it won’t be a problem—and certainly not for a good number of years—but the thought arises occasionally.

  120. 120
    MomSense says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Aioli is delicious. Roasted red pepper aioli is yummy, too. Aioli is garlic and olive oil emulsified. It’s tricky to do so many places use mayo instead of aioli which is upsetting for those of us who do not like mayo.

  121. 121

    @Steeplejack: Can you ask her for them? Since you said she doesn’t cook these days.

  122. 122
    Elizabelle says:


    Yeah, exactly. Ask her to give them to you, and ask which are her favorite recipes from them.

    I have my mom’s cookbooks, although she only used maybe 3. Joy of Cooking, 1964 edition is the bible. Julia Child’s Mastering the Art of French Cooking. A few of the collection types. She kept a file of written out recipes and cards from friends and family, and newspaper clippings.

    Like mayonnaise.

    You’re a Joy of Cooking house. Or you’re a Betty Crocker or Better Homes and Gardens house. JOC, all the way, and not the revised dreck put out maybe 20 years ago. No traditional tuna casserole!

  123. 123
    SWMBO says:

    @raven: Could have been my mom. She lives in DeSoto. And is prone to butt dialing.

  124. 124
    Steeplejack says:

    @schrodingers_cat, @Elizabelle:

    I have already gotten a few of her cookbooks, when I asked about specific recipes. Like most people, she has favorite recipes in a bunch of different cookbooks, marginal notes, index cards stuck in here and there, etc.

    And you’re reminding me that I’d totally forgotten about her hoard of handwritten recipes! I’m going to have to do some serious archival research when I go out there.

  125. 125
    Steeplejack says:

    Gotta dash for a lunch appointment. Mex and margs! Will check back later.

  126. 126
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Mel: Yes! God, it was awful.

  127. 127
    JWL says:

    FDR sent a handwritten copy of that poem via personal emissary to Winston Churchill prior to Pearl Harbor, when Britain stood alone. It ends, “Humanity with all its fears, With all its hopes for future years, is hanging breathless on thy fate”.

  128. 128
    J R in WV says:


    Yet no one appears to actually name a newly introduced condiment replacing mayo. I’ll tell you what I do, I use rice wine vinegar and extra strong olive oil, unfiltered, virgin. first mechanical pressing, instead of mayo, to cook with. Except for sandwiches, which get messy with oil and vinegar, compared with mayo and a little horseradish and mustard.

  129. 129
    Elizabelle says:

    @JWL: O Ship of State.

    When we are stuck in the O Ship of Fools maladministration. Let this “regime” pass soon, and quickly.

  130. 130
    NotMax says:

    re: above

    No gelatin, no particular weirdness, but IMHO this says “1950s on a plate.”

  131. 131
    JWL says:

    “You have sat too long for any good you have been doing lately … Depart, I say; and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!”.

    Oliver Cromwell to the Rump Parliament, which was echoed by conservative MP Leo Avery when addressing Neville Chamberlain in Parliament, on the day the PM was effectively driven from power. It’s not quite applicable to our situation today, if only because the republican party has never done this country any good at all, at least not during my lifetime.

  132. 132
    J R in WV says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    O My Gawd, laughed til I cried.

  133. 133
    L85NJGT says:

    Kewpie has a good flavor profile, but you pay a premium for the squeeze bottle and being a weaboo.

    I like playing private label roulette. Is it Hellman’s or Kraft?

  134. 134
    L85NJGT says:

    Kewpie has a good flavor profile, but you pay a premium for the squeeze bottle and being a weaboo.

    I like playing private label roulette. Is it Hellman’s or Kraft?

  135. 135
    opiejeanne says:

    @Baud: It’s much more fun to walk around Dublin.

  136. 136
    Mel says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Maybe ask to borrow them longterm, with the promise that you’ll share any requested recipes with your siblings, and that you’ll bring her any cookbook she might need.

    If she’s not cooking anymore, she likely won’t request any of them often, but knowing that they are still “her cookbooks” and that she can easily access them might make her feel better about letting them go. That would allow you to protect them for you, your brother, and for her as well, in case your other brother might decide on his own to “sell all the stuff Mom doesn’t use.”

  137. 137
    Dan B says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Your second meeting with Sal was probably norovirus. I had it one night, all night throne and garbage can. Thought I might pass out. Next night my partner had it. I felt bad for giving it to him. He felt glad I’d had it and survived.

  138. 138
    opiejeanne says:

    @Mel: Or the brother might just throw it out.
    My dad’s first cousin threw out a family Bible that belonged to their mutual great grandparents, and all the family photo albums. The neighbors fished them out and called the guy’s sister, thank goodness.

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