Okay, this is weird…

Trump eats paper? According to Omarosa Manigault Newman, yes. She claims she saw Trump stuff a note into his mouth and eat it as she was escorting Michael Cohen out of the Oval Office. Via TPM:

“I saw him put a note in his mouth. Since Trump was ever the germophobe, I was shocked he appeared to be chewing and swallowing the paper. It must have been something very, very sensitive.”

Manigault Newman also claims she turned down $15K per month to keep her mouth shut after she was fired. The Post, which got an advance copy of the book, says Omarosa “depicts Trump as unqualified, narcissistic and racist.”

Too bad she didn’t figure that shit out before her embarrassing “kneel before Zod” comment. Manigault Newman is a reality show clown without a whole lot of credibility, IMO, but if she gets under the Tang Tyrant’s orange skin with her book, more power to her.

Open thread.

239 replies
  1. 1
    dmsilev says:

    Trump attracts only the best, classiest, most qualified people to work for him.

    Like attracts like, after all.

  2. 2

    ISTR this came up before in the discussion of the problems with Trump not complying with the Presidential Records Act. In addition to his habit of tearing up documents after reading them, there was a mention of him chewing them up. I guess that’s what he does if he decides they’re too sensitive to be just torn to pieces. So while it’s funny and bizarre, it’s also almost certainly illegal.

  3. 3

    I had to click over when I saw this headline on my Twitter timeline, because I wondered how you would pick out one thing.

    Also, I see others finding this weird, but it seems obvious to me: something sensitive was written on that piece of paper, or something Trump deemed sensitive. There’s a long movie tradition of eating secret papers.

  4. 4

    the only thing I can think of was trump was trying to dispose of evidence in a way that nobody expected. why use a trash can when nobody checks the toilet?

  5. 5
    JPL says:

    Hangs head in shame, since I admit to eating a last minute xmas list, in order to prevent my son from seeing it.

  6. 6
    Mike in NC says:

    Paper is one of the least disgusting things Trump crams down his throat.

  7. 7

    @Roger Moore: I thought I remembered that too. Ick. I feel like I’m choking just contemplating eating paper in any amount.

    As an aside, my publisher released the cover for The Wind Reader today. I linked to twitter. If you are so inclined, you can retweet and give us some signal boost. Apparently the book will be available for preorder next week, which is…soon.

  8. 8

    @JPL: Seriously? You swallowed and everything?

    OK. That sounded dirty.

  9. 9
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Roger Moore: @Cheryl Rofer: @JPL: @Dorothy A. Winsor:

    1) Has it been documented that Michael Cohen ever visited the President at the White House? I’ve seen a lot of reporting that a lot of effort was put in to keeping him away from DC.

    2) If he did, indeed, visit the President at the White House and did pass him a note with sensitive information on it, it most certainly had nothing to do with the US government and governmental functions and everything to do with either some aspect of the President’s business or Michael Cohen’s attempts to peddle access to the President.

    3) My guess is he started eating these types of things when someone clued him in that McGahn and Kelly had two staffers assigned to pick up and paste documentation that he rips up and throws on the floor back together in order to be in compliance with the National Records Act.

  10. 10
    opiejeanne says:

    Michael Steele has been getting the better of her on Twitter, calling out her opportunism. He pissed her off, she tried to threaten him, and he just laughed at her. .

  11. 11

    Manigault Newman is a reality show clown without a whole lot of credibility

    So totally qualified to be President.

  12. 12
    Peale says:

    Frankly, I don’t really give a crap what Omorosa has to say now that she’s been kicked out of the club. She could spout off that she came across Trump and the Russian Ambassodor making love on a pile of rubles and I’d still want her off the air, uninterviewed by anyone. Let her go on Alex Jones. Its the bed she made.

  13. 13
    Gelfling 545 says:

    If the worst thing he did was eat paper we’d be ever so lucky.

  14. 14
    Robert Harvey says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Isn’t there a Three Stooges episode where they have to get a map out of Larry’s stomach?

  15. 15
    Bill K says:

    Where was this before the election? She has no credibility. She sold her soul to suck up to Trump and gain power. Now she’s trying to cash in with a tell-all book. Just a generally despicable person.

  16. 16
    Jeffro says:

    Can we look into supplying the WH with copy paper made of laxatives?

    Or, for REAL laffs, spiked with melanin?? Oh boy, now THERE is a comedy movie plot right there…

  17. 17
    Immanentize says:

    @Peale: That’s like saying Gates shouldn’t testify in the Manafort trial.

  18. 18
    Adam L Silverman says:

    We go now to footage of the Trump administration’s January 2017 training session on compliance with the National Records Act.

  19. 19
    Gin & Tonic says:

    I’m just pissed off that she was offered $15k/mo to not write a book. I’d be happy to not write a book for a mere $10k/mo.

  20. 20
    MJS says:

    The paper was simply a cheeseburger wrapper.

  21. 21
    JPL says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Does it help that it was just a small piece of paper? BTW the son appeared horrified..

  22. 22
  23. 23
    Immanentize says:

    @Bill K: Trump chose her. Despicable like attracts despicable like, eh?

  24. 24
    JPL says:

    @Adam L Silverman: What we can assume is that the attorneys will ask Cohen about that incident.

  25. 25
    randy khan says:

    I’m pretty confident the book is going to be filled with strange and appalling things.

    And she’s definitely an opportunist, but that’s a fine American tradition.

  26. 26

    @JPL: If it’s bigger than spitball size, it’s too big.

  27. 27
    Origuy says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Maybe it was about Trump’s personal finances, in which case it would probably be red.

  28. 28
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @JPL: I would expect so.

  29. 29
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    Isn’t she waaay over her fifteen minutes?

  30. 30
    dmsilev says:

    @Gin & Tonic: No no no, that’s all wrong. You need to offer to not write a book in exchange for $20K/month.

  31. 31
    oatler. says:

    Trump’s really in his own Hell, burning with rage, envy, gluttony, lust, etc.
    More gasoline please.

  32. 32
    TenguPhule says:

    Missouri is full of idiots. Apologies to any BJ folks living there.

    Scott Long, a refrigeration mechanic, is a supporter of Trump. But he joined with a large majority of voters in this red state this week to reject “right-to-work” legislation that would have sharply constrained unionorganizing.

    The 43-year-old union member said unions have played an indispensable role in his life. “Our benefits are just awesome. Our health care is top of the line. I have a pension, so I’m going to be set when I retire, we get a 401(k), my medical and dental and vision plans are awesome,” he said. “If I get laid off, they look for another job for me, and you can’t really ask for better, in my eyes.”

    Economic anxiety, amirite?

    Trump has shown hostility toward organized labor, and his Republican allies in Missouri were behind the right-to-work legislation. But pro-union, pro-Trump voters say that even if they consider unions crucial, they see many other reasons to back Trump.

    “I like what Trump is doing for the country, though I don’t agree on all of his policies,” Long said. “If you want to be a citizen, you shouldn’t just walk across the southern California border. . . . I like how Trump wants to close the border down.”

    Dennis Brinkler, a union electrician who voted against the legislation, also cited immigration as a reason he’s supporting Trump and state Attorney General Josh Hawley, an anti-union Republican who is challenging Sen. Claire McCaskill (D) in November.

    “I vote my faith and morals, number one; my country and the Constitution second; and then for my union third,” said Brinkler, 65. “Without the Constitution, there are no labor unions. Without my country, the union means nothing, because we’d have no work.”

    I don’t want these people to vote any more. I want them to shut up and stay home forever and a day.

  33. 33
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    My guess is that Trump is a pig who’ll eat anything.

    Okay, my real guess is that this is nothing new for den Scheißgibbon. Trump has been eating paper for a long time. He’s been destroying Trump Org records this way for decades to conceal certain of his, ahem, less-than-savoury business activities. If, for instance, the New York AG’s office got a warrant to Trump Org and look at its records, it might find some interesting omissions.

  34. 34
    WaterGirl says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: love the colors on the cover! very nice.

  35. 35
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    Do you think in the future, there will be like a Trump-Con? You know, a convention where everybody cos-plays their favorite (or least favorite) character from this whole sick, sorrid affair? And at these conventions, there will be a row of sad people, sitting at desks, signing books and 8X10s of their mug shots; Comey, Spicer, Flynn, Huckabee, etc. And someone will ask, “Where’s Omarosa?” And everybody will gesture towards the ‘adjacent’ convention area.

  36. 36
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Without the Constitution, there are no labor unions

    I don’t have my pocket Constitution handy – which Article is that in?

  37. 37
    Immanentize says:

    Why are people here so intent on running her down and dismissing her? What else is in Trump’s orbit but people of her quality? The only way the Trump story gets told is if bad actors tell it. And I wonder if we would get the same, “Who gives a shit?” responses if it was Kelly writing a tell all. He is certainly more despicable that she. Hmmm, He? She?

  38. 38
    ruemara says:

    @TenguPhule: Fuck those guys.

    In an unrelated note, I am very tired of working with engineers. I don’t know why the most arrogant and narrow-minded rise to the top, but seems like that’s a rule. Oh, hey, save nym is back! Yay! Thanks Alain et M4!

  39. 39
    TenguPhule says:

    @oatler.:

    Trump’s really in his own Hell, burning with rage, envy, gluttony, lust, etc.

    The problem is he’s dragging along the rest of us in with his cold tiny little hands,

  40. 40
    jl says:

    During the paper eating competition for the 2020 presidential debates, Thor Michaelson will crush the vile Trump.
    Michaelson will make Trump look sad and low energy at snarfing up a cheese burger and fries too.

    Omarosa just buried Trump. Good thing. Thor will crush at barking and slobbering too.

  41. 41
    Ruckus says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    I’d bet you are right. This doofus is one weird semi human assortment of shit in a large, lumpy, ugly, orange pile.

  42. 42

    @Adam L Silverman: Yeah, on your point 1), I agree that Omarosa is another liar, but it’s as plausible as anything else about Trump.

  43. 43

    @WaterGirl: Thanks! I’d like to claim credit but all I did was be here to look at it.

  44. 44
    Ruckus says:

    @Immanentize:
    Nice.
    Started to read that and went wh….. but then I finished and had to giggle at it.

  45. 45
    Immanentize says:

    @Gin & Tonic: The strongest argument against unions has always been the commerce clause of Article I.

  46. 46
    zhena gogolia says:

    @ruemara:

    Don’t worry, your nym will disappear again after you leave the site and come back.

  47. 47
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Amir Khalid: Or he has pica.

  48. 48
    Millard Filmore says:

    @The Midnight Lurker: [ … And someone will ask, “Where’s Omarosa?” And everybody will gesture towards the ‘adjacent’ convention area.]

    In keeping with the spirit of the Trump administration, that would be in the separate segregated area?

  49. 49
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    My guess is he started eating these types of things when someone clued him in that McGahn and Kelly had two staffers assigned to pick up and paste documentation that he rips up and throws on the floor back together in order to be in compliance with the National Records Act.

    He needs to be charged with obstruction of justice. And of the colon.

  50. 50
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    “I saw him put a note in his mouth. Since Trump was ever the germophobe, I was shocked he appeared to be chewing and swallowing the paper. It must have been something very, very sensitive.”

    Memory Hole indeed.

  51. 51
    Immanentize says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Ooo ooo! I remember PICA commercials on WPIX or WNEW from my childhood — trying to reduce lead paint eating.

  52. 52
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Unfortunately those are both true and not mutually exclusive.

  53. 53
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Immanentize: You are officially old. Please see AL on the mezzanine level for your complimentary belt onion.

  54. 54
    p.a. says:

    @Gin & Tonic: “Without the Constitution, there are no labor unions

    Do all those Eurotrash unionists realize they have our constitutional rights!!??

    Lucky bastards…

  55. 55
    Immanentize says:

    First, I can certainly tell stories that go nowhere.
    Two, is there an elevator to the mezzanine?

  56. 56
    rikyrah says:

    Omarosa is a slave catcher. A snake.

  57. 57
    MattF says:

    My guess is that Trump picked up a variety of disgusting habits from the mobsters he dealt with. Eating paper is probably the least of it.

  58. 58
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @p.a.: I watched that idiot Credico try to explain to Ari Melber that Jullian Assange, who is not an American, is not residing in the US, and is not a journalist has 1st Amendment rights and protections to freedom of speech, which is why Credico isn’t cooperating with Special Counsel Mueller’s investigation.

    This country is facing a crisis of failure to properly teach and understand 8th grade civics!

  59. 59
    rikyrah says:

    BC,
    We know that Dolt45 routinely tears up paper. So, why not eat it?

  60. 60
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    They’re thinking that without the Constiutional framework there wouldn’t be the possibility of unions. They’re right and wrong at the same time. Labor unions as they have existed since FDR’s time weren’t around for the first hundred years the Constitution was in force. It’s entirely possible for labor unions to not exist under the current constitution.

  61. 61

    @Immanentize: Yeah, Kelly and Omarosa had just the same CVs before they went to work in the White House. FFS.

  62. 62
    HeleninEire says:

    @Adam L Silverman: This. Thank you Adam for putting a name to it. My sister Mary, who is now “developmental disabled” (she was retarded when we were growing up, more on that in a minute) eats paper and other non-nutritional/inedible things. It is a sign of a mental disability and called pica.

    So I told you all about Mary maybe a year ago when I thought I would have to go back to America. That disaster was averted for at least now.

    Anyway I want to talk about the word “retarded.” The only thing I defended Sarah Palin about was when she called her son “my retarded one.” SP is my age. When we were young “retarded” was not an insult. It was a descriptor. We called Mary “retarded” the same way we called her “blond.”

    Anyhow the moral of the story is Donald Trump is an asshole. The end.

  63. 63
    opiejeanne says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: That’s a great cover.

  64. 64
    Peale says:

    @Immanentize: She’s free to testify in any court she wants or is needed to. She can fuck off if she wants a 10 minutes on TMC or 2 minutes on Meet the Press. If she’s witnessed a crime, she should go to the authorities and stay away from my TV.

  65. 65
    Immanentize says:

    OT — I am in Austin with the Immp looking at UT and their pretty great Computer Science program. Ate great BarBQ at Blacks, which used to oy be in Lockhart Texas, but is now also north of campus. But the real story is that the Immp and I have been cruising around on Lime electric Scooters. Totally the future in places like this.

    But just to be clear, as I was scootering, I did wear an onion in my belt. From the BarBQ place. Which I think is still also in Lockhart near San Antonio….

  66. 66
    Immanentize says:

    @Peale:

    stay away from my TV

    And Adam says I yell at clouds….

  67. 67
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Please see AL on the mezzanine level for your complimentary belt onion.

    Hey! I had to BUY mine

  68. 68
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I don’t know if it’s been documented that Cohen visited the White House. I seem to recall the Trumpsters reversed the Obama administration’s policy of making the visitor logs public. But according to The Post account, Omarosa claims she was scolded for bringing Cohen in.

  69. 69
    JPL says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Although you aren’t suppose to judge a book by it’s cover, yadda, yadda, yadda, a good cover helps to sell books. Congrats!

  70. 70
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Note the speakers age

    said Brinkler, 65. “Without the Constitution, there are no labor unions. Without my country, the union means nothing, because we’d have no work.”

    Short timer who cares less about the Union. He’s got his so fuck everyone else.

  71. 71
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Are you sure he wasn’t just claiming Assange has a right to some generic sense of “free speech” that so many assholes try to claim a right to when private platforms try to moderate them/kick them off?

  72. 72
    efgoldman says:

    @HeleninEire:

    When we were young “retarded” was not an insult. It was a descriptor.

    Sorry, doesn’t wash.
    When I was young there were niggers and spics and chinks….

  73. 73
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @HeleninEire: You’re welcome.

  74. 74
    James E Powell says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷:

    But don’t try to explain such things to Trump supporters. It only makes them angry.

  75. 75
    Inventor says:

    @ruemara: As an engineer I can only say: yep.

  76. 76
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷: No, he was specifically linking Assange’s activities as being both protected political speech and journalism under the 1st Amendment and the Special Counsel’s investigation, using the IC report from December 2017 that identified Wikileaks and Assange as Russian Intelligence assets as the connection for why he won’t cooperate. So he’s going to get subpoenaed.

  77. 77
    zhena gogolia says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Good one!

  78. 78
    JPL says:

    @efgoldman: There was a difference between hurtful slang words and retarded. My cousin who is the same age as I was considered to be retarded, and it was an acceptable term. I’m glad we evolved from that though.

  79. 79
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: Please see AL on the mezzanine level for two belt onions…

  80. 80
    Immanentize says:

    @HeleninEire:
    When we were working to end the death penalty for those with mental retardation, the dispute was whether to call someone “mentally retarded” or to use the “person with mental retardation” language. Then, we shifted to “person with a developmental disability.”. I’m not sure we’ve gained much in the last change in language, but I think objectifying the illnes as not being the same as the person is a good thing.

    Fun fact — at least one main stream “mental retardation” organization argued in favor of imposing the death penalty on such folks because their whole shtick was mainstreaming. They were sort of ostracized from the disability advocacy world for that argument….

  81. 81
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @efgoldman: ..with noses as long as your a-a-a-arm…

  82. 82
    Ruckus says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    They also don’t understand that with freedom of speech comes responsibility of speech. Causing riots, panic and in general being an ass, etc. Sure you have free speech but you are also responsible for what comes out of your pie hole. They want all the freedoms for themselves, none for anyone not in their group and they absolutely want none of the responsibility. Sovereign “citizens” are about the worst at this, but conservatives in general aren’t much better.

  83. 83
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    So he’s going to get subpoenaed.

    Speaking of which, I saw a headline that Ratfucker Stones’s chief deputy is refusing to testify and has been held in contempt.
    Lock him up,

    Fuckem

  84. 84
    geg6 says:

    @Immanentize:

    Having once watched part of a season of the Apprentice (the one where she was on it the first time), I knew this was exactly what would happen. She’s a horrible person, but, I agree, everyone in this administration is a horrible person. At least Omarosa has not jailed children or sold out to the Russians or stolen from the tax payers. In some ways, she’s one of the best people he hired. And she has recordings, apparently. Those might be interesting.

  85. 85
    HeleninEire says:

    @efgoldman: Nope. I lived it. I love my sister. I defended her to the end. And the word had nothing to do with it. You are wrong.

  86. 86
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Immanentize: My father started his professional career in psychology working with youth. Largely either at risk or developmentally disabled. This was mid 60s, so I remember as a kid in the 70s still seeing and hearing the clinical term mongoloid to describe the physiognomy of people with Down’s Syndrome.

  87. 87
    burnspbesq says:

    @Immanentize:

    Austin would be a much more attractive place to live if it weren’t in Texas.

  88. 88
    Ruckus says:

    @HeleninEire:

    Anyhow the moral of the story is Donald Trump is an asshole. The end.

    QFT
    And I liked how you got there.

  89. 89
    efgoldman says:

    @JPL:

    it was an acceptable term.

    I think it depended which end of the naming you were. I certainly never found “Kike” or “Hebe” acceptable.

  90. 90
    Lapassionara says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I saw that episode. The stupid, it burns!

  91. 91
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    ” This country is facing a crisis of failure to properly teach and understand 8th grade civics! ”
    People trying to evade civil and criminal liability for their actions can put even bad civics lessons to bad uses.

  92. 92
    JPL says:

    This is from the washington post

    Before court resumed, Downing was seen leaving judge’s chambers. The lawyers and Judge T.S. Ellis III entered the courtroom at about 2:18 p.m., when the judge said, “Let me have one of you please from each side.” Prosecutor Greg Andres and Manafort attorney Kevin Downing spoke with the judge at the front of the courtroom before they returned to their tables.
    “All right Mr. Andres, you can call your next witness,” Ellis said returning to the bench without any discussion of what the side conferences were about.
    “The jury, your honor?” Andres asked, sparking laughter in the courtroom before the jury filed in to take their seats.

    The judge could just be flustered, but considering he forgot a few other things, I wonder if there is something going on.

  93. 93
    TenguPhule says:

    @efgoldman:

    Hey! I had to BUY mine

    Back when a nickel was real money.

  94. 94
    MattF says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Once upon a time ‘idiot’, ‘imbecile’, and ‘moron’ were considered acceptable clinical terms for varying degrees of mental disability.

  95. 95
    Patrick II says:

    @Immanentize:

    I didn’t know destroying the constitution was part of McCaskill’s platform.

  96. 96
    TenguPhule says:

    @geg6:

    . At least Omarosa has not jailed children or sold out to the Russians or stolen from the tax payers.

    That we know of. So far.

    Hell, she might be Trump’s eighth mistress for all we know.

  97. 97
    Immanentize says:

    @efgoldman: Sadly that guy is out of jail while he appeals the contempt ruling. Which appeal he will lose. So, this is really just some time for him to cut a better deal or bring his toothbrush to court. I really hope he gets a little lock up time just to demonstrate to others the feds aren’t playing.

    Just so people know -+ if you are held in contempt for failing to testify before a grand jury, sending you to jail is not, technically, punishment for what you did, but rather a method of coersion to get you to do the right thing and testify. As the cases say, the individual holds the keys to his/her own confinement and can “purge” their contempt simply by testifying.

  98. 98
    JPL says:

    @efgoldman: I didn’t mean that, I meant mentally retarded. My cousin would be called a retard which was very ugly and hurtful for the family, but that’s different.
    The city where I was raised had a polish church, a french church, and irish church. The next city over was largely Italian, so I’m familiar with all the hateful terms.

  99. 99
    TenguPhule says:

    @Immanentize:

    Sadly that guy is out of jail while he appeals the contempt ruling. Which appeal he will lose. So, this is really just some time for him to cut a better deal or bring his toothbrush to court.

    What are the odds of him fleeing the country? Did they take away his passport?

    Frankly I’m surprised there hasn’t been more contempt of courts, given how little Trumpsters hold the law in esteem when its working against them.

  100. 100
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: The issue with this, of course, is whether holding him in jail based on the contempt ruling will actually compel his cooperation. The Manhattan Madam appeared before the grand jury yesterday, but this kid – Miller – as well as Credico are playing games. Nunberg tried this and quickly thought better of it. This leads me to two questions:
    1) what, exactly, was Stone, actually involved in that has everyone around him so spooked and
    2) what instructions did Stone give to these people about cooperating or not cooperating.

    Stone does not strike me as the type to not obstruct justice.

  101. 101
    clay says:

    Re: paper eating

    Look… shouldn’t we just be glad he’s getting some form of fiber?

    (After all, the faster he poops, the less time he’ll have for tweeting.)

  102. 102
    RedDirtGirl says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Just retweeted, although most of my followers are from here, so will see it anyway! How are you feeling?

  103. 103
    debit says:

    @MattF: “Dummy” also springs to mind.

    I will also go to the mezzanine level for my belt onion.

  104. 104
    Immanentize says:

    @Patrick II: meaning?

  105. 105
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Immanentize: I read that he wanted the contempt finding so they could appeal further – this is part of his legal team’s strategy to de-legitimize Mueller.

  106. 106
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Lapassionara: I’m not quite sure why he has him on. His broadcasting of the Candace Owen’s experience this week was also a sight to behold.

  107. 107
    TenguPhule says:

    Exhibit 1,000,001 for why Megan McArdle should be burned at the stake in the public square..

    If you are on a pharmaceutical company board and you tell your son to sell the firm’s stock because its new drug just failed in trials, there is basically a 100 percent chance that regulators are going to connect the dots. And if your son tells his fiancee and his future father-in-law, and said father-in-law then tells his brother and sister — well, the chances that someone close to you will be indicted are also good.

    In this case, it was Collins, his son and the father of his son’s fiancee who were charged with wire fraud, securities fraud and conspiracy to commit securities fraud. All three pleaded not guilty, and Collins vowed not only to keep his seat but also to continue campaigning for reelection in November.

    Okay, what Collins is alleged to have done wasn’t too bright. But was it wrong?

    At some level, yes, it’s wrong because it’s illegal and you shouldn’t break the law. Except people break the law all the time when they think no one is being harmed, as when they speed on a deserted stretch of road or put money into the office pool during March Madness.

    Who was hurt by what Collins allegedly did? The answer might seem obvious: anyone who bought the stock that Collins’s son, Cameron, and others sold. But it’s not as if Cameron Collins went door to door persuading pensioners to buy his ticking-bomb shares. According to the indictment, he used a broker to sell the stock. The broker presumably sold that stock to people who already had an interest in buying it.

    Yes, Cameron Collins allegedly knew that the interest was misguided. It would have been selfless of him to hang on to the stock and bear the losses himself. But if he hadn’t sold, those interested buyers would have bought shares from someone else. And here’s the kicker: Since share prices tend to decrease as the supply of shares increases, the buyers might have actually paid a higher price if Cameron Collins’s weren’t on the market, and thereby would have lost more money.

    But maybe insider trading is bad for the market? Actually, insider trading probably makes markets more efficient. During the interval between the discovery of material nonpublic information and the publicizing of that information, the shares are being systematically mispriced through general ignorance. If insiders were trading, the shift in the supply of the stock would tend to push the price closer to a more realistic value.

    Even seamstresses have standards. McArdle has none.

  108. 108
    Immanentize says:

    @TenguPhule:
    I don’t think he has the resources to flee. He was an aid, not a partner to Stone. In any case, if he did flee, that would be the last person in this whole investigation allowed to remain out pending appeal without serious bail or other constraints.

  109. 109
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @MattF: I’m aware.

  110. 110
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Come on, snowflakes, What Makes America Great?

    It’s candied apples and ponies with dapples
    You can ride all day!
    It’s girls with pimples
    And cripples with dimples
    That just wont go away!
    Its spics and wops and niggers and kikes
    With noses as long as your arm!
    Its micks and chinks and gooks and geeks
    And honkies
    Who never left the farm!

  111. 111

    @TenguPhule: In those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on ’em.

  112. 112
    danielx says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    True dat. It’s not like being a reality show clown is disqualifying these days,

  113. 113
    Johnny Gentle (famous crooner) says:

    @JPL: Better than eating your son to prevent him from seeing your Christmas list.

  114. 114
    Immanentize says:

    @Gin & Tonic: But all you get is more judges as a group — and the question is simply does the grand jury have reason to talk to him. No appellate judge likes to over turn a lower Court judge — especially on such a basic question. Sure, the defense team is trying to tart up the issue and good for them!! But this is so basic. Susan MacDougal did IIRC over 20 months for her refusal to testify about Whitewater

  115. 115
    Chris T. says:

    I still wonder if the Omarosa Tapes (which are rumored to have Bad Language on them) will be the thing that turns the Rs officially against Trump, the way the Watergate Tapes (which did indeed have Bad Language on them) turned the Rs officially against Nixon.

    Treason: aw shucks! No biggie! Slap on the wrist in public, it’ll be fine!

    Saying “f*** the (ethnics)”: whoa, guess we have to impeach!

  116. 116
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Gin & Tonic: And all they’re going to do is now get their second appellate court ruling the Mueller’s appointment was constitutional.

  117. 117
    danielx says:

    @The Midnight Lurker:

    Do you think in the future, there will be like a Trump-Con?

    Only in some really sick weird alternate universe.

  118. 118
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Immanentize: Hey, I wasn’t saying it’s smart, just telling you what I read. You’re the law guy.

  119. 119
    L85NJGT says:

    @TenguPhule:

    They’ll for sure vote Democratic if we all sign a pledge to dump Pelosi.

  120. 120
    ruemara says:

    @Chris T.: I think they’ll improve his support with the base.

  121. 121
    Litlebritdifrnt says:

    I am in the UK and watching the most recent Masterchef Junior. Could anyone tell me what Beni is? I don’t want to be judgmental but is Beni a girl trying to be a boy or a boy trying to be a girl? She looks like a boy but everyone keeps referring to her as a girl, my husband looked at her without any prior knowledge and said “that is a boy”. I am confused and I want to be not confused. I have tried Google and the Wiki for Masterchef Junior gives no clues. Help anyone?

  122. 122
    geg6 says:

    @TenguPhule:

    True. Unbelievable that I can now think of her as one of the least worst people in the administration, though. She’s just horrible. But never struck me as a monster, just as a bitch.

  123. 123
    debit says:

    @Chris T.: Doubtful if foul language regarding race would even raise an evangelical eyebrow. But if there’s something on religion or a religious figure…maybe it would cause a mild upset. I honestly can’t think of anything bad enough that would turn his hardcore supporters off.

  124. 124
    JPL says:

    @TenguPhule: I hope that Tom Levenson doesn’t read that, because it will cause him to start posting about her again. On the other hand, there would be some pretty pictures of beautiful paintings.

  125. 125
    JPL says:

    @debit: If she said that trump has a crush on Obama, they would flee.

  126. 126

    @RedDirtGirl: I’m feeling ok. I tire fairly easily, but other than that, I’m good. On Monday, I have to call the doc to be cleared for cardiac rehab, whatever that will be.

  127. 127
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Johnny Gentle (famous crooner): The other, other white meat.

  128. 128
    geg6 says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Beni is definitely a girl. She considers herself a punk. I loved her.

  129. 129
    J.A.F. Rusty Shackleford says:

    @TenguPhule: This fucking woman?

  130. 130
    MattF says:

    @TenguPhule: McArdle is making the standard libertarian argument that there’s nothing wrong with insider trading. It’s just information asymmetry, and information asymmetry is what free markets are all about.

    And, in fact, financial markets regularly skin investors who are naive and/or ignorant and no one objects to that– if the information in question is publicly available. The issue is, should information that’s not publicly available be used to make money. The law, American financial markets and the SEC say no.

  131. 131
    Immanentize says:

    @Gin & Tonic: If I were the defense attorney for that guy, I would be trying as hard as possible to get immunity for my client. I haven’t yet heard that he was granted immunity…. So he can still just plead the fifth before the Grand Jury. He has lots of moves to make. So I think this appeal is not just to weaken Mueller, but to strengthen an immunity deal.

    ETA by which I mean it is a smart move by the defense counsel, just not an ultimately successful one as to quashing the subpoena. It’s a time extender.

  132. 132
    Jeffro says:

    @TenguPhule: Bad for the market? As if that was a cardinal sin. Makes markets more efficient? As if that was the highest of virtues.

    These fucking Randians’ values are so warped, they can’t just note the basic immorality of what Collins did. What a twisted little shriveled-soul of a creature she is.

  133. 133
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @burnspbesq:
    Since Austin seems to be a reaction to the rest of the state, I’m not sure it would be the same city if not surrounded by christian fascists.

  134. 134
    L85NJGT says:

    @ruemara:

    Stan Greenburg’s FU Boyz are his base. They don’t give a shit about propriety, or any of that honor duty country stuff. They love Trump because he’s an asshole.

  135. 135
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Exhibit 1,000,001 for why Megan McArdle should be be burned at the stake in the public square..

    Ha! Yep. In some jurisdictions, her pernicious feat of intellectual masturbation would be illegal.

  136. 136
    boatboy_srq says:

    @PaulWartenberg: Can Lord Dampnut’s entrails then be examined via FOIA request? Can they be read a la ancient scroll? That could prove most informative, and would eliminate the need for ongoing investigation because the prime suspect’s entrails would have become his entrails in the discovery process.

  137. 137
    TenguPhule says:

    @geg6: I miss the days where we didn’t have to classify our shame and disgust with different members of the executive branch by degrees.

  138. 138
    TenguPhule says:

    @MattF: The best part is she’s trying to defend herself in the comments and the commentors are having a field day.

  139. 139
    🇺🇸🌎 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)  🗳🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Well, then. That’s even stupider.

  140. 140
    NCSteve says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Or, possibly, a piece of that grease-absorbing paper that they put into every box and bucket of Kentucky Fried Chicken.

  141. 141
    Immanentize says:

    @A Ghost To Most: I never thought of it like that. But I like that way of thinking of Austin.

    When I lived in Texas, I first lived in Austin and then in San Antonio. I have always thought both were great cities to live in, just sadly surrounded by Texas.

  142. 142
    Litlebritdifrnt says:

    @geg6: Thanks geg. I was a tomboy as a child and can relate, but she does a damn good job of being a tom BOY.

  143. 143
    JPL says:

    @NCSteve: That’s just gross.

  144. 144
    Zinsky says:

    Trump is a disgusting, filthy liar, so it should come as no surprise that the turd burglar eats paper and his own boogers too, the repulsive degenerate…I keep hoping for a massive cerebral hemorrhage soon, given the pervert’s lust for cheeseburgers and his wimpy, fat ass physique, due to a complete lack of exercise.

  145. 145
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: Does it matter? Beni sounds like a very good Beni.

    Disclaimer: parent of a gender fluid person.

  146. 146
    ruemara says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: The best way to not be confused is to stay fluid in your mind by saying, “I’ll let Beni say what pronouns & gender they identify as, since it really isn’t critical to whether they’re a good person & chef or not”. That’s how I handle these situations. Usually, the other person will let me know if it’s important.

  147. 147
    randy khan says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Others have commented on the wrongness of McArdle’s analysis, but they key point here is that the chairman of a public company has a fiduciary duty to *all* of the shareholders, not just the ones who are related to him or happen to be friends with him, so if the information is going to a relative, it has to be going to everyone else, too.

    Besides, the notion that insider trading improves market efficiency is stupid. If it did, the stock would start moving as soon as the insiders traded, and that basically never happens. (It may have moved in this case, but only because the insiders were responsible for more than half of the volume that day.) It’s purely a way for people who have information they’re not supposed to have to avoid losses (or take gains) when people who don’t have the information can’t.

  148. 148
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @TenguPhule: Wow – what a fucking idiot – Penn and the University of Chicago should ask for their degrees back

  149. 149
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: Is she really defending the column in comments? I may have to find that conversation. Goddamn, that’s the dumbest fucking column I’ve read in The Post since…last time Thiessen or Abernathy published a column. But really, it’s even dumber than their dreck — those two deliberately create bad-faith justifications for amoral behavior. McArdle seems to be truly ignorant of how this shit works. I’m a stupid English major who struggled with balancing my checkbook before online banking came along, and even I could see the yawning idiocy of McArdle, MBA’s central premise.

  150. 150
    Domestic short hair tabby (fka vheidi) says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: done

  151. 151
    different-church-lady says:

    Insane recognize insane.

  152. 152
    different-church-lady says:

    Also: LOVING the new in-line comment editing engine!

  153. 153
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    Betty – I have a comment in moderation (due to fumble-fingeredness) that I would like to have simply deleted. Please?

  154. 154
    debit says:

    @L85NJGT: Great article, thanks for the link.

  155. 155
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @ruemara: I know some people oppose using “they/their” pronouns, but it works for us.

  156. 156
    HeleninEire says:

    @Immanentize: Good on ya hun for your first sentence. Imagine a country that executes the mentally retarded. Oh wait, what?? Thank you.

  157. 157
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: I don’t see anything from you in moderation, trash or spam.

  158. 158
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Is she really defending the column in comments?

    Yep. She’s even whinier in her comments then the article, believe it or not.

  159. 159
    efgoldman says:

    @MattF:

    The law, American financial markets and the SEC say no.

    The law is for the little people.

    And save nym disappeared even though it was checked

    This fucking blog.

  160. 160
    L85NJGT says:

    @Just One More Canuck:

    “I like money, and will do anything for it” isn’t much of a thesis statement, but at least it’s an ethos??

  161. 161
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @Betty Cracker: It’s with my name, not my nym. I’m an idiot. I sent you a message via “Contact a front-pager” with both. THANKS.

    ETA: my hero!

  162. 162
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    Ed Rogers certainly deserves mention in that conversation. I won’t give any of them views.

  163. 163
    TenguPhule says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Megan McArdle Staff
    5 hours ago
    Okay, how does it hurt them? If I was going to hold my stock regardless of what Cameron did, I’m no worse off. If I was going to buy, I’m better off, because I bought at a lower price. If I was going to sell, I’m slightly worse off, but not much.

    A taste of the pure snowflake’s distress.

  164. 164
    Haroldo says:

    @A Ghost To Most:Exactly the conclusion I came to w.r.t. Lawrence, KS, 45 years ago!

    @ruemara (Comment #146): A delightful way of living our lives, no matter what the social situation. Respect to others.

  165. 165
    Brachiator says:

    @MattF:

    McArdle is making the standard libertarian argument that there’s nothing wrong with insider trading. It’s just information asymmetry, and and information asymmetry is what free markets are all about.

    I suppose if I were trying to find some rational foundation in this libertarian argument, it would be that McArdle sides heavily in favor of caveat emptor. But McCardle and her ilk live in a fantasy world in which Randian Ubermen and women heroically make only right decisions. But in a realistic libertarian universe, scoundrels would monopolize information forever, and libertarians would wither away and die.

  166. 166
    Yutsano says:

    @Just One More Canuck: Obviously, she is not a lawyer. And also just as obvious, the legal profession is very thankful for that.

  167. 167
    Chris T. says:

    @L85NJGT:

    Stan Greenburg’s FU Boyz are [Trump’s] base.

    Incidentally, I just want to make it clear that what I’m wondering about is not Trump’s base, but what remains of the Trump-infested, once-respectable (in the 1880s that is), formal Republican party.

    In the 1970s, they were the ones shocked, shocked at foul language. The fact that Nixon was a crook and was, for instance, using the IRS to punish the people he viewed as “enemies”, did not bother them. But that he said particular words, why, that was way over the line.

    Murder, treason, torture, arms-for-hostages, all those kinds of actions (all done by Republicans since Nixon) that maim and kill humans, those are all forgivable. But bad words…

  168. 168
    Comrade Colette Collaboratrice says:

    @efgoldman: Apples and oranges (or maybe apples and anthrax). I agree with @HeleninEire: – back in the 60s when I knew “mentally retarded” kids, that was the only term we had to describe developmental/intellectual disabilities. If there were others, they had not penetrated my small-town surroundings. Sure, the word could be used as an insult – and was, sometimes by people who should have known better – but primarily it was a descriptor. There were plenty of other factual, non-derogatory ways to describe or identify Black, Hispanic, Jewish, or Chinese people then, so using a racist epithet was a choice. We had no other commonly-used clinical (for lack of a better term) words to take the place of “retarded.”

  169. 169
    different-church-lady says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Oil from Canada, gold from Mexico, geese from the neighbor’s backyard – boom boom.

  170. 170
    Jeffro says:

    @TenguPhule: This was a pretty good response to Megan McIdiot

    Standard GOP think. Privatize the profit, socialize the risk. The problem comes in cheating. It tilts the playing field toward the insiders, so they will always win and those in the outside will always lose. No, one or two violations will not bring down the system. But if all the insiders do that all the time, you no longer have that arms length deal where everyone is treated equally and his exposed to the same risk. What McArdle is proposing sounds like approving playing poker with a marked deck. Sure, the amount of money bet at the end of the night may be the same, but the distribution of that money will definitely not be, with one person unfairly getting most of the money and everyone else getting less.

  171. 171
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Haroldo: I’ve never been to Lawrence, but the theory seems to work.

    I have been to Manhattan, KS, and once was enough. Talk about East B.F., Nowhere.

  172. 172
    HeleninEire says:

    @Comrade Colette Collaboratrice: I thank you. Mary does too. She is the best!.

  173. 173
    jacy says:

    @Immanentize:

    LSU has a brand new engineering complex, and they now have the DMAE (Digital Media Arts) complex. Baton Rouge is attempting to make itself the Silicon Valley of the South, and there are lots of software start-ups here. It’s a fabulous campus. (Just in case you wondered….)

  174. 174
    Jeffro says:

    @TenguPhule: I love how she is somehow magically able to rationalize away “I’m slightly worse off, but not by much” due to someone else’s breaking the law. What the hey, it’s only insider trading, well-off folks do it all the time. Happy to subsidize my fellow white folks man!

    But find a poor person somewhere in the entire world who’s using food stamps to buy anything other than dried beans, and it’s WTF?!? YOU’RE RIPPING ME OFF/DISTORTING THE MARKET!!! THE PRECIOUS, PRECIOUS MARKET! FREE RIDER!!

    Why aren’t rich thieves “free riders”?

  175. 175
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: Good God. I hope someone replied, “BECAUSE THE MARKETS WOULD COLLAPSE DUE TO LOSS OF INVESTOR CONFIDENCE IF YOU LEGALIZED SWINDLING, YOU GIGANTIC IGNORAMUS!” What a peerless demonstration of libertarians’ inability to grok the very concept of social consequences of individual actions.

  176. 176
    joel hanes says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    DC: That’s America, buddy! just remember-Abraham Lincoln didn’t die in vain, he died in Washington, D. C.!

    BABE: I see …well, who am us, anyway?

    EDDIE: We’re one of you, and you’re one of us. I think.

    JOE: Maybe …

    DC: Possibly …

    BABE: How do you tell? How do you know for sure? How do you ever really know?

    JOE: They didn’t ask questions like that back in 1776!
    No, they didn’t have time back in 1776!
    Back in 1776, boy, they were too busy singing songs like…

    EDDIE [Singing]:

    “Yankee Doodle came to terms,
    Writing Martin Buber.
    Stuck a Fuhrer in our back,
    And called it Shicklegruber!”

    DC: Come on, Mr. and Mrs. Too-Busy-To-Be-A-Homecoming-Queen!
    Get in step with the voices of the feet already dead in the service of their Country!

    JOE: 1829! In the midst of an ever-deepening sense of Prosperity,
    Chester Allen Arthur climbed to the top of his bedroom wall,
    thrust his defiance at the Javanese, and shouted

    ARTHUR [badly recorded]: Give me Them, or I’m going Over There!

    https://webspace.ringling.edu/~ccjones/curricula/03-04/satire/readings/sixties/firesign.html

  177. 177
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    ’m a stupid English major who struggled with balancing my checkbook before online banking came along, and even I could see the yawning idiocy of McArdle, MBA’s central premise.

    That’s only because you haven’t been adequately schooled in the finer points of libertarian economics. It takes a lot of garbage in to produce this quality of garbage out.

  178. 178
    ruemara says:

    @A Ghost To Most: I tend to go with whatever the person wants. If Monday you’re a boy, hello, sir. If Tuesday you’re a girl, morning, lady! Wednesday, you’re neither? Ok, nym it is. I’m not you and I don’t know what’s under your skin & in your head. But I do want to know if you’re nice, kind, smart, funny and empathetic.

    @Haroldo: I’ve found that’s the method that allows me to live myself the best. Purely selfish reasons.

  179. 179
  180. 180
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I hope someone replied, “BECAUSE THE MARKETS WOULD COLLAPSE DUE TO LOSS OF INVESTOR CONFIDENCE IF YOU LEGALIZED SWINDLING, YOU GIGANTIC IGNORAMUS!”

    About 7 variations on that theme so far, half in caps. The rest are getting quite inventive. Almost golden age BJ level quality jackal dissections.

  181. 181
    hueyplong says:

    In a rational society, McArdle’s policy-based support for insider trading would end her career.

    In the late 2010s it won’t be remembered after a news cycle or two.

  182. 182
    California Stars says:

    @A Ghost To Most: Hello A Ghost to Most…just wrote you a comment that got eaten, but maybe it’ll show up later. Just wanted to chime in as a parent of a nonbinary person. We use they/them too. And yeah, wow, so weird to have to occasionally respond to desperate “need-to-know” questions about, basically, my child’s genitals.

  183. 183
    different-church-lady says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    Could anyone tell me what Beni is?

    Beni is a junior master chef, apparently.

  184. 184
    TenguPhule says:

    10 minutes ago
    Clearly, Ms. McArdle, you failed Economics 101. I’m guessing that you didn’t do too well in Rhetoric 101 either, but I digress. A capitalist system, and a free market, relies upon a balance of risk and reward. The risk and reward must be equivalent for the system to work: if it becomes possible for individuals to shield themselves from all risk, while reaping rewards of capital gains, the system becomes both hopelessly corrupt and terminally unproductive. To argue that ‘there is no victim” is as specious as it is vacuous. The victims are the other investors, not only in that particular company, but in stock or equities markets in general who—unless criminals like Mr. Collins are caught—pay the price for corruption, greed, and the patently criminal behavior that underlies it.

    To defend Mr. Collins, or any insider trading criminal, is to trumpet oligarchy, autocracy, and the worst sort of graft and greed imaginable. It is bad enough that the current occupant of the White House and many of his cronies who serve in positions of governmental power or influence have embraced that creed of illegal behavior. To proselytize so that any one can embrace the idea that trading stocks based upon information that is not available freely and fairly, so that moral hazard can be borne by the unwitting, and that the immoral can profit, is inexcusable. In addition, it’s just plain dumb.

    If you need remedial education, I would be happy to provide tuition money for you to take introductory courses in economics, public policy, and rhetoric. If we must contend with your so called “libertarian” blather on the pages of the Washington Post, it might be nice if you were intellectually enlightened enough to at least put a veneer of cogency and decency on your screeds. To state this more bluntly, a little “learning” might train you to put lipstick on your libertarian pigs.

    From the comments.

  185. 185
    Haroldo says:

    @A Ghost To Most: I spent most of my youthful summers about 35 miles due south of Manhattan. You’re not wrong.

    P.S. Incidentally, it’s where Timothy McVeigh loaded up his Ryder truck with fertilizer prior to his terrorist attack on OK City. The Flint Hills can be starkly beautiful, but that state really breeds the crazy.

  186. 186
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @jacy: as a Baton Rouge resident and native, it’s one of my favorite places to just walk around, though the older I get the weirder it looks for me.

  187. 187
    Ruckus says:

    @Chris T.:
    They don’t care about the doing, only the appearance of doing it. The propriety, not the act. Because if they had to act like they want you to talk, how could they possibly get rich?

  188. 188

    @jl:

    Michaelson will make Trump look sad and low energy at snarfing up a cheese burger and fries too.

    Sure unless a Russian agent starts up a vacuum cleaner.

  189. 189
    Ohio Mom says:

    Re: Retarded
    As noted by others in this thread, “mentally retarded” used to be a clincal term, created and used by professionals. It was as neutral as saying, “She has a broken leg.” (Really, efg, this is true).

    Then the rabble started using the word as an insult. The disability world reacted by changing the terminology to “developmentally disabled” and “ID” (intellectually disabled). Nowadays when someone uses the word retarded to describe someone with cognitive challenges, it sounds as out of place as someone describing an African American as Colored.

    The new “R word” we are told is Respect. You can pretty much bet though that eventually, Developmentally Disabled will evolve into an insult and the dance will start all over again.

    I see the same thing happening with my son’s disability: “That’s so autistic!” It won’t be long until that “autistic” and “autism” are general, all-purpose insults, as removed from the actual condition as idiot, moron, and imbecile are from ID (as someone noted above, these were also clinical terms long ago).

    Meanwhile, gay people manage to own the insults once thrown at them. They are proudly Queer, they are happy to be call themselves Dykes, and so forth.

  190. 190
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @California Stars: Good luck. Is your child autistic as well, as our child is?

    He is now 29, working as a para with autistic kids, and contemplating grad school. It is just a different journey.

  191. 191
    hueyplong says:

    @TenguPhule: On the plus side, a mere two days after Collins’s arrest, they are already to the point of “insider trading should not be a crime,” skipping right past any attempt to call him not guilty.

  192. 192
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @TenguPhule: The commentator is clearly wrong, I don’t recall any ethical market behavior theory being discussed in ECON 101 or any real world economics for that matter. Perhaps in higher level courses, but I doubt it is common, given the raft of morally impaired economists that flood the media. I can count on one hand the few who seem to have an ethical grounding who show up in any media.

  193. 193
    dmsilev says:

    @TenguPhule: Impressive that that made it past the moderators.

  194. 194
    Ruckus says:

    @ruemara:
    @California Stars:
    @different-church-lady:
    Respect for the person. Such a simple thing. So very often never learned early in life. We talk here every day about people who have zero respect for others.
    None of us are your play thing, we get to be who we want to be. You don’t have to like us, because we don’t meet your expectations, which in any case is on you, but we deserve your respect for being alive and being human. Right up until the moment that your actions/words told us that you have no respect for others or even yourself. Still, you get the benefit of the doubt, right up until the moment that you showed how big an ass you can be. Current case, the shitgibbon. Even then, honorable people, such as Adam, will respect the position they hold.

  195. 195
    stinger says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor: Yay! Nice cover!

    I loved Finders Keepers and Deep as a Tomb — can’t wait for The Wind Reader!

  196. 196
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @hueyplong: The next Executive Order will simply be IOKIYAR.

  197. 197
    EBT says:

    @HeleninEire: It was hurtful and insulting when my mother was a child. She is 76. You sound Neurotypical, so maybe don’t talk for the neurodivergent. It makes you look like a prick.

  198. 198
    JPL says:

    @TenguPhule: Thank you for copying some of the comments, since I refuse to read her.

  199. 199
    Yutsano says:

    @JPL: I wasn’t so lucky. But I can confidently tell you do not go there. Even if you take blood pressure medication.

  200. 200
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Haroldo: I grew up in the same evil universe as McVeigh in WNY; I dated a girl from his HS at one point (much earlier). Small world.

    So, I take it that Lawrence is Kansas’ version of Austin? It would seem as necessary as Austin is.

    M4: stickiness returns! Woot!

  201. 201
    JustRuss says:

    @TenguPhule: Righteous. I’d like to believe that the WaPo editors published this drivel figuring they’d give McArdle enough rope to hang herself, and will now at long last be banishing her for this breathtaking display of ignorance and incompetence. I’d like to believe that.

  202. 202
    California Stars says:

    @A Ghost To Most: How super cool that your kid is helping others. Ours is still in elementary school, and not autistic, rather a social butterfly, but very persistently/insistently gender nonconforming–from about 18 months, actively resistant to any attempt to categorize or limit them according to gender roles. Which at first was so wild to us, as parents in our mid 30s/40s who were not at all hip to gender stuff. Fortunately we live in a progressive place and now enjoy a lot of support and understanding.

    Three to four times a month, someone we encounter will be openly confused/nosy/offended. It’s uncomfortable, for sure, but I understand the idea that gender can be a private or fluid thing is a relatively new concept, and so I know that sometimes folks’ circuits short if they can’t immediately categorize a child into one easy box or another. Yep, it’s a learning process for all involved…

  203. 203
    jacy says:

    @BlueDWarrior:

    We love to walk around the lakes. (My significant other works there, and my kids will be attending in the fall, so we spend a lot of time there.)

  204. 204
    WaterGirl says:

    @lamh36: That makes me smile. I hope she can have a lot of impact.

  205. 205
    Haroldo says:

    @A Ghost To Most: Yep. Lawrence is a delightful oasis of a university town in the societal wretchedness that is most of the rest of Kansas.

  206. 206
    Shana says:

    @efgoldman: Actually those terms you mention were considered bad even then and not said in polite society, unlike “retarded” which was the norm. Kind of like “negro” then vs. African-American or Black today.

  207. 207
    Ohio Mom says:

    @A Ghost To Most: I always appreciate a success story — helps to keep me hopeful. My autie just turned 21.

    He’s in community college but I wouldn’t call him a particularly serious student. He has a way to go before he finds his direction. It’s a nail biter for me.

    @EBT: Whoa! You need to read the whole thread before you pile on Helen.

  208. 208
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @California Stars: Living in a place that is progressive will help a lot. Our town was .. not.

    Sounds like you have a different journey going. Enjoy, and don’t let the bastards beat you down.

  209. 209
    WaterGirl says:

    From Booman today:

    To say the least, it’s not helpful to Trump or Stone to have headlines like: Judge holds Roger Stone associate in contempt for refusing to testify in Russia investigation in the Washington Post, so whatever they’re hiding must be far worse. It looks like Miller has become a pawn in a much larger game, and he’s probably thrown in with the wrong side.

    Interesting way of looking at it.

  210. 210
    DissidentFish says:

    @EBT: Just for everyone on the linguistic discussion of the “R” word — I’d like to propose a thought. Discrimination against persons with developmental disabilities was so baked in historically, that there was no respectful term to use. Yes, retarded was used by the medical community even through the sixties — but — in context — sterilization and extermination of the developmentally disabled was a large scale policy of “civilized countries” less than 20 years before that. Extermination in Germany; Sterilization in the US of A.

    With that history, the word retarded, which may truly have been the best word known by the most well-wishing of people, was still a slur, a marker of society’s rejection of the value of those individuals. It was the word that was used, and it may have been the best word available, but it carried the weight of persecution and neglect that in force at the time.

    Things are better for persons with disabilities, but oh man there’s a way to go…

  211. 211
    cokane says:

    Don’t believe anything from Omarosa unless it’s independently reported. Let’s not give in to the same fantasy bullshit as Trumpers, guys. This same thing happened with Michael Wolff’s book, which also was chock full of half-truths and some outright fabrications. And he’s more reputable than Omarosa.

  212. 212
    Ohio Mom says:

    @California Stars: Some parents of autistic children print up little business card-sized cards to hand out to um, overly concerned strangers. The cards explain what autism is, why their child might be behaving the way he is, what websites have more information, that sort of thing.

    It’s a way to shut people up. Maybe your family would be helped by a similar strategy?

  213. 213
    J R in WV says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    …I’d be happy to not write a book for a mere $10k/mo.

    Not me. I want $25,000 not to write my book about Trumpolini — at least~!!!

    Payment in Krugerrands only, no dirty paper money, too likely to be eaten by RWNJs.

  214. 214
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Ohio Mom: He’s in college. Current victory. Ours took a while and CC/online.

    Let him find something that interests him, and he should take off.

  215. 215
    Ohio Mom says:

    @DissidentFish: That is a good explanation.

    I sometimes like to remind people that it wasn’t until the late 1970’s that we recognized that children with disabilities had the right to a public education. Before this federal law, most disabled kids weren’t allowed in school. No one taught them anything and as a result, they didn’t know anything. A self-fulfilling prophecy.

    The entire disability landscape has changed tremendously in our lifetimes. But yes, there is still far to go.

  216. 216
    J R in WV says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    @TenguPhule:

    Without the Constitution, there are no labor unions

    I don’t have my pocket Constitution handy – which Article is that in?

    The First Amendment right to assemble, wouldn’t that be the one?

  217. 217
    different-church-lady says:

    @Ruckus:

    …but we deserve your respect for being alive and being human.

    it’s nothing personal, but there ain’t nobody on the planet who gets my respect for merely that. Polite tolerance, yes, but respect? Gotta go a bit beyond mere existence as far as I’m concerned.

    …right up until the moment that you showed how big an ass you can be.

    Wait… uh… oops.

  218. 218
    stinger says:

    @Ohio Mom: And we can thank Hillary Clinton, in part, for this change in the educational rights of children with disabilities.

  219. 219
    different-church-lady says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I’d be happy to not write a book for a mere $10k/mo.

    Would I have to not write a different book each month, or can I just continue to work on not writing the same book for years?

  220. 220
    WaterGirl says:

    @different-church-lady: Which reminds me of the old joke about the bilingual illiterate – illiterate in two languages.

  221. 221
    J R in WV says:

    @MattF:

    Once upon a time ‘idiot’, ‘imbecile’, and ‘moron’ were considered acceptable clinical terms for varying degrees of mental disability.

    Now they’re just ordinary descriptors for the President, depending on which cabinet secretary is speaking and what time of day it is.

    ;-)

  222. 222
    Bess says:

    @DissidentFish:

    At one point in time mentally retarded, or retarded, was the acceptable description of people with severe intellectual challenges.

    Earlier idiot, imbecile, moron, and feeble minded were acceptable classifications. Those were the descriptors used by Binet when he developed IQ tests.

    More recently developmentally delayed became the acceptable term. But over time the acceptable term turns into a word used by the cruel to put down people with less intellectual abilities. I’ve heard kids call each other “DDs” just as they might use “retard”.

    We can invent a new word but it will probably have a limited shelf life before jerks misuse it.

  223. 223
    different-church-lady says:

    @Bess: Lately I just use the term “everybody but me” and move on with my day.

  224. 224
    Brachiator says:

    @Bess:

    Earlier idiot, imbecile, moron, and feeble minded were acceptable classifications. Those were the descriptors used by Binet when he developed IQ tests.

    Also, I think that idiot, moron, and imbecile were meant to rank degrees of mental incapacity, with imbecile being the lowest.

  225. 225
    Ohio Mom says:

    @stinger: The first special ed law was passed in Washington state. Special needs moms lobbied the state legislature with home-cooked lunches. It really was a grass roots effort.

    That law was the model for the federal law, which yes, Hillary collected supporting evidence for in her first job out of college at the Children’s Defense Fund.

  226. 226
    J R in WV says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    …Could anyone tell me what Beni is? I don’t want to be judgmental but is Beni a girl trying to be a boy or a boy trying to be a girl? …

    I would guess (with no information at all) that Beni is a person born with ambiguous gender identity – either psychological or biological or both. As a very young person Beni may not have a firm gender identity yet, or may be in the beginning of transforming from an arbitrary gender assigned at birth to a different gender Beni feels more comfortable with.

    People are born with confusing or ambiguous biological genders, in a world with billions of people there are probably millions of children who’s actual biological gender is not clear physically at birth. In the past they frequently had that ambiguous gender “repaired” surgically soon after birth, with no input to the gender they were assigned to.

    Now that we understand that children with an biologically ambiguous gender can’t be arbitrarily assigned by a surgeon at the age of a couple of months with more than a 50% chance of success, many of these children are allowed to remain ambiguous until they can understand the choices available to them and make an educated choice as they near adolescence.

    Perhaps this is what you are seeing.

    I don’t care for kid chef shows much, given the brief segments of such shows I’ve seen before I could change the channel or shut the tuner card output off. So I’ll never know what you have seen.

    Best wishes over in Great Britain!!

  227. 227
    TenguPhule says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):

    I don’t recall any ethical market behavior theory being discussed in ECON 101 or any real world economics for that matter.

    Its called practical instead of ethical. The assumption being that you need basic rules for any game/thought experiment in economics and that nobody will bother to play if one side is always cheating to win.

  228. 228
    Bess says:

    @Brachiator:

    Correct. Binet tied the terms to a specific range of scores on his IQ test.

    Feeble minded was the highest scoring classification. A functional analysis of that group would include people smart enough to work routine jobs and live on their own but not smart enough to move higher up the ladder.

    Idiot was the lowest. Someone who would need constant care in order to stay alive for more than few days.

  229. 229
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bess:

    Someone who would need constant care in order to stay alive for more than few days.

    So basically the entire Trump clan?

  230. 230
    Ruckus says:

    @Bess:

    Idiot was the lowest. Someone who would need constant care in order to stay alive for more than few days.

    shitgibbon seems to be qualified for this.

  231. 231
    Bess says:

    As someone who spent their career working with individuals with severe intellectual problems I cringe a bit when I see statements about Trump and his circle being intellectually challenged.

    Yes, some of them may not be as intelligent as we’d want doing the jobs they are supposed to be doing. But intelligence is not their problem. They are simply people with value systems that we find onerous. They are all about themselves and a small circle of people around them. Everyone outside of those circles is of no real concern to them. That allows them to fuck over others and see nothing wrong with that.

  232. 232
    Platonailedit says:

    @TenguPhule:

    my country, the constitution.

    What a lying racist cowardly pos.

  233. 233
    Ruckus says:

    @Bess:
    I get your point. But my take is that if your “belief” system is so twisted that there is no reality left and/or you think you are the center of the universe, intelligence is part of your problem.
    And in this case we are all paying and will continue to pay a lot and a long time for having a lot of people who didn’t use their brains when voting. shitgibbon has been way out there for decades, is extremely unqualified to hold any public office and is a cesspool of crank ideology and lack of any sense what so ever. That some are unfortunately born with less than the normal/minimal mental abilities is horrible. To place shitgibbon in that category does not change that. I can see that putting him in a category to which others had no choice may not reflect well on them. But shitgibbon deserves everything we can do to point out that he is unfit almost to be called human.
    And my non professional opinion is that he has Alzheimer’s. I’ve dealt up close and personal for 20 yrs with an Alzheimer’s patient, and because of that I’ve met a number of people with similar experience and talked to a number of people who are professionals in this field. shitgibbon may not have belonged in the category prior, and although my grading system is biased, he does now.

  234. 234
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Bess: Very nicely stated. A nice bit of advocacy for the intellectually disabled and a fitting end to this thread.

  235. 235
    Bess says:

    ” But my take is that if your “belief” system is so twisted that there is no reality left and/or you think you are the center of the universe, intelligence is part of your problem.”

    If we define intelligence as the ability to learn and reason then I’ll disagree. These people learn and reason but they are living in a reality where what they value learning is more ways to benefit themselves.

    Those of us who are most angered by the behavior of our present government have a different world view in which it is important to raise everyone’s boat.

  236. 236
    Ruckus says:

    @Bess:
    If all you learn is bullshit that has no connection to reality then you aren’t really learning. It’s not a different point of view or a different value system. We all have differing points of view because we come at things from differing angles, levels of experience, training, understanding and I’m sure more. But if you take something like “The CA government has far more than enough water and is pumping it into the ocean,” when this is easily provably false, that’s not intelligence. Unless you are saying that living in an alternative, non reality is intelligent. We don’t live in a fairy tale or a horror movie or a SF novel. We live in reality. Not being in any sort of touch with reality is not a sign of intelligence. Just because you can learn something egregiously wrong does not make one intelligent. It may mean you have the capability to learn, but if you can’t discern reality from not reality, then what is your real capability? The guy they just arrested for setting the fire in southern CA, he knows a lot of “facts.” All of them are not real. Is he intelligent because he was capable of learning the opposite of reality?
    You may notice that I see intelligence as the ability to live and work as a part of a society. The more you understand your surroundings and the things that affect you the better you can make decisions about the world around you. The less you understand is exactly the opposite. Someone who doesn’t understand global warming because they say we’ve had hot and cold periods on earth before is not an intelligent person. It’s not a difference of opinion.

  237. 237
    Tehanu says:

    @Gin & Tonic: The Firesign Theatre was prescient in so many ways, partly because they were observant of the world as it really was.

  238. 238
    Bess says:

    You may notice that I see intelligence as the ability to live and work as a part of a society.

    I’ve never seen anyone else define intelligence that way.

  239. 239

    @Litlebritdifrnt:

    I am in the UK and watching the most recent Masterchef Junior. Could anyone tell me what Beni is? I don’t want to be judgmental but is Beni a girl trying to be a boy or a boy trying to be a girl? She looks like a boy but everyone keeps referring to her as a girl, my husband looked at her without any prior knowledge and said “that is a boy”. I am confused and I want to be not confused. I have tried Google and the Wiki for Masterchef Junior gives no clues. Help anyone?

    Probably a long-dead thread, but….

    As someone who identified as “bigender” for the better part of a decade — before terms like “gender queer” and “non-binary” really existed, and we wore onions on our belts — my experience is that people are often far more uncomfortable with gender ambiguity.

    When I transitioned, it was actually a lot easier for a number of people to wrap their minds around that. I was switching to Team Woman — but at least (in their minds) there were still only two teams. Whereas the idea that there might be more than two genders, or that people might identify has >1 gender, was disquieting for them.

    FWIW, there are a number of cultures around the world that recognize multiple genders (anywhere from three to five commonly).

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