Saving NATO From Trump

After Donald Trump blew up the G-20 meeting, it looks like his advisors decided that shouldn’t happen at the NATO meeting.

Senior American national security officials, seeking to prevent President Trump from upending a formal policy agreement at last month’s NATO meeting, pushed the military alliance’s ambassadors to complete it before the forum even began.

The work to preserve the North Atlantic Treaty Organization agreement, which is usually subject to intense 11th-hour negotiations, came just weeks after Mr. Trump refused to sign off on a communiqué from the June meeting of the Group of 7 in Canada. (New York Times)

According to the article, which cites “European diplomats and American officials” as the sources, it was John Bolton who insisted on completing the “communiqué — renamed for the meeting as a declaration.”

All kinds of fascinating things to unpack in this. Could it be that Bolton doesn’t want to burn down the international order? And the diplomats and officials who spoke to the Times reporters know that this could upset Trump, which could lead to any number of untoward results. But most interesting is the continuing split between Trump and the government, in which Trump tries to undermine Western alliances and the government tries to preserve them or Trump cozies up to Putin and the government slams sanctions on him.

On the other hand, it’s entirely possible that now that the spectacle is over, Trump doesn’t care about outcomes, so the sources figure we might as well know what is going on.

I guess we’ll see in tomorrow’s tweet storm.

99 replies
  1. 1
    Chip Daniels says:

    The most astounding thing of course, is the open acceptance that governance must be shielded from the madman at the helm.
    No one even bothers to deny it anymore.

  2. 2
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    I think it’s your first choice. Bolton isn’t mixed up in this Russian mess (at least not at any level I’m aware of), so he’s probably trying to save NATO from the Great (Rotted) Pumpkin.

  3. 3
    Mart says:

    When John Bolton is a moderating influence…

  4. 4
    PsiFighter37 says:

    Decline and fall, baby. It’s a helluva a drug.

  5. 5
    raven says:

    I just realized how dumb it would be to pay $185 for a room in Providence when I’m only going to be in it for 5 hrs or so. Best Stay in in Plaineville here I come!

  6. 6
    Mike in NC says:

    Tomorrow is Friday and I’m hoping for some toxic shit about Trump and Manafort and Cohen to drop.

  7. 7

    @The Midnight Lurker: Bolton made a video for the NRA to encourage the Russian government to loosen gun laws. I’m not sure what that means.

  8. 8
    geg6 says:

    When I am counting on John Bolton to pull our asses out of the fire, you know we are in a total fucking shitstorm. Jesus.

  9. 9

    In contrast to the two-bit soulless ratfuck criminals in the Legislature, perhaps not everyone is trying to loot the place or burn it down before they get thrown out on their sorry pasty-white asses. As I recall, the dickhead conservatives once upon a time were the first to run around screaming about the reds under your bed. Working to preserve NATO and the alliances is still in the best interest of everyone. Compare to Sen Rand fuck-you-I-got-mine Paul inviting the Russians to a group grope. That’s gotta sting ole’ Johnnie B right where he used to live.

  10. 10

    @raven: Travel safe and feel better, Raven. Take your vitamins and stay hydrated!

  11. 11

    I could see Bolton preferring the status quo re NATO, compared to the great Trump unknown.

  12. 12
    TenguPhule says:

    Could it be that Bolton doesn’t want to burn down the international order?

    No. This is Bolton taking credit for some poor grunt’s hard work.

  13. 13
    TenguPhule says:


    As I recall, the dickhead conservatives once upon a time were the first to run around screaming about the reds under your bed.

    Only because the reds were not the right kind of white racists they are now.

  14. 14
    EBT says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: This one strange trick let Russian peasants overthrow a dictatorship.

  15. 15
    jayjaybear says:

    I’m not sure I can deal with a reality in which I’m cheering on John Fucking Bolton.

  16. 16
    TenguPhule says:

    @The Midnight Lurker:

    Bolton isn’t mixed up in this Russian mess

    Of course he’s mixed up in the mess. He’s John Bolton.

  17. 17
    dmsilev says:

    Bolton wants very badly to bomb Iran, and he’s smart enough to know that pissing off NATO will make that harder, since pissed-off allies are more likely to leak inconvenient facts poking holes in whatever bomb-Iran figleaf excuse he and his crew come up with.

  18. 18
    TenguPhule says:

    @Chip Daniels:

    The most astounding thing of course, is the open acceptance that governance must be shielded from the madman at the helm.
    No one even bothers to deny it anymore.

    We are so fucked.

  19. 19
    Lee says:

    I agree. The government is starting to publicly distance itself from Trump. For me the biggest indicator was when the DHS Nazi lady announced that we working to prevent Russia from tampering with our next election.

  20. 20
    TenguPhule says:

    I have to vote in Hawaii’s primary this weekend and I hate pretty much all of my available choices except for the Senate. Because at least I’m not in Gabbard’s district!

  21. 21
    Walker says:

    @Chip Daniels:

    If only there were a constitutional amendment to deal with that.

  22. 22
    Ken says:

    @Chip Daniels:

    the open acceptance that governance must be shielded from the madman at the helm.


    The government is starting to publicly distance itself from Trump.

    It would be annoying if his name became a permanent part of the vocabulary, along the lines of “Potemkin village” or “Quisling”, as a shorthand for a division in the executive.

  23. 23
    dexwood says:

    … Bizarro World.

  24. 24
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Oh, really? Well… thanks for the 411.

  25. 25
    Regnad Kcin says:

    @Ken: Vichy. Pétain. Smoot.

  26. 26
    Mnemosyne says:

    Bolton is only now realizing that the monkey’s paw always extracts its price in a way he didn’t expect or want, and he’s all out of wishes to reverse it.

  27. 27
    Waldo says:

    @dmsilev: Not to mention we might need some allies willing to join us in the fight against Iran that Bolton’s been itching for.

  28. 28
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Yeah, I just watched it. That’s Bolton advacating for laws in Russia. That’s probably NOT on Putin’s agenda. Maybe he was just looking for a payday between wars?

  29. 29
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Regnad Kcin: Why mix poor Oliver in with Nazi collaborators? What did he do to you?

  30. 30
    clay says:

    @geg6: I think Bolton wants America to continue to be the biggest-swinging-dick on the global stage, and recognizes that this is only possible if other nations actually respect us. He also recognizes that Trump has diminished that respect in almost every conceivable way.

  31. 31
    Mnemosyne says:

    In less depressing news, I’m sitting at the Hollywood Bowl waiting for the screening of The Empire Strikes Back with live orchestral accompaniment to start. Everyone else bailed on me, but fuckem. I got a free lightsaber and they didn’t.

  32. 32
  33. 33
    EZSmirkzz says:

    Here’s some food for thought;

    But he’s right about one thing: Steele relied on Deripaska for intelligence, and even while he was screaming about Trump’s compromise by the Russians, he was under the impression that Deripaska, who virtually owned Donald Trump’s campaign manager during most of the time Steele was digging dirt on Trump, had been purified of his corrupt ways and influence by the Kremlin.

    If this is what it appears, it should be an opportunity for both sides to step back and agree, Jeebus christmas did Russia ever pawn our collective asses in 2016!, and move on to cooperating on ways to recover from all that.

    That won’t happen, of course, because both sides still believe the parties were in charge of dealing the dirt, and not Russia, dealing it on both sides.

    For the sake of argument, suppose that this is what really is happening, that Russian is pwning everyone. Would they do that to us?!

    As far as Bolton goes, he’s a war monger, and will have assessed the necessity of a strong NATO in the grand game, so this is a no brainer, IMHO.

    Even if we ceded that Trump is a showman extraordinaire manipulating the media as some have written, (not I, YMMV,) when it comes to the international order the guys clueless except for how it might interfere in, or facilitate his own personal bidness’s. I wouldn’t ascribe anything but GAF to the guy in a lot of these things. He does shit to be smug and coy, not because he has just finished reading Will and Ariel Durant’s “Story of Civilization” and has well thought out plan for arranging the world in a kinder gentler sort of way. There ain’t no thousand points of light, and I doubt if there is even a point, much less any light in any of this.

    Bolton, I think, is just as fixated on establishing the hyper powered America as he always been. His lunacy is about the only reliable barometer as far as I can tell. It’s like graft and corruption of the Presidents cabinet members. These things are integers, not variables.

    Not sure how to define Russia in the above, but it may be worth taking another look at everything with soft eyes.

  34. 34
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    On a completely different note – I just stepped outside to see an amazing lightning storm here. Trying to get some bulb setting shots. Also, there’s a jack rabbit eating in Mrs. Lurker’s garden. Uh-oh.

  35. 35
    Platonailedit says:

    Why do you assume it was bolton who saved the bacon? I read that article and it cites many others including pompeo and mattis who worked behind the scene traitorous turd’s ass with nato officials to make it happen. bolton was presented with a fait accompli and the fucker could do jacksquat about it,

  36. 36
    Nicole says:

    @Mnemosyne: I’m sorry your posse bailed. If I lived on the Left Coast I totally would’ve gone with you.

  37. 37
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @Mnemosyne: Wish I was back in LA – I’d go with you. You’d have to let me play with your lightsaber though.

  38. 38
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    OT: DeShone Kizer is a better QB than Brett Hundley. OTOH we need Rodger healthy to do anything.

  39. 39
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Rodgers, damn it.

  40. 40
    Aleta says:

    @Mnemosyne: live orchestral accompaniment to TESB!! Free light saber. They lost big.

  41. 41
    Mnemosyne says:


    My spouse forgot to put it on his calendar and didn’t take the night off work. 🙄 No free lightsaber for him!

    @The Midnight Lurker:

    You’d have to let me play with your lightsaber though.

    Phrasing! 😂

    There are many, many cosplayers here, which is always amusing. Lots of parents with their kids, often in family costumes.

  42. 42
    Doug R says:


    In less depressing news, I’m sitting at the Hollywood Bowl waiting for the screening of The Empire Strikes Back with live orchestral accompaniment to start. Everyone else bailed on me, but fuckem. I got a free lightsaber and they didn’t.

    No spoilers, OK? I don’t want my childhood destroyed retroactively.

  43. 43
    Steeplejack says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    It was in furtherance of the fiction that we (Trumpian America) share so many things in common with Russia: whiteness, Christianity and deep love of (and access to) guns. Cletus will never realize that your chances of owning a gun in Russia are exponentially worse than in some liberal hell-hole blue state.

  44. 44
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Doug R:

    So far, I’ve managed not to punch anyone whining about The Last Jedi, which is a win as far as I’m concerned.

  45. 45
  46. 46
    gwangung says:

    @Steeplejack: Don’t forget whiteness. Russia looks down on diversity markers like gayness or race.

  47. 47
    Mary G says:

    Isn’t Bolton’s major mania Iran? He’s all hooked up with MEK, I think. So Russia is their supporter, so bad in Johnnie’s book.

  48. 48
    Mnemosyne says:


    I’m gloating about it on Facebook. I never claimed to not be petty.

  49. 49
    The Dangerman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    ….better QB than Brett Hundley…

    I watched him closely at UCLA; he’s great at everything except throwing the ball. If that’s what’s needed, Green Bay, we have a problem.

    He’s Johnny Manziel. Great College QB but not designed for the NFL. For my money, Baker Mayfield will join them as a bust. Sorry, Cleveland.

  50. 50
    MomSense says:

    JFC I thought I hit my low point when I liked a Bill Kristol tweet and now I have to root for John Fucking Bolton to dial back the insane clown dictator?

    This is no way to run a superpower.

  51. 51
  52. 52

    @EZSmirkzz: I disagree with Emptywheel’s contention that the Steele dossier is fully and totally Russian disinformation. I do think there’s probably some in it – that’s a natural hazard of doing intelligence on the Russians. But we’ve seen enough similarities in other information that has come out that I think the dossier is at least 60-70% accurate. Steele is a professional and would be alert for disinformation.

    That said, I agree that it’s likely the Russians were trying to turn everyone. The difference is that there’s no evidence that the Democrats would have done anything but call the FBI if they were approached in the way the Trumpies or the NRA were.

  53. 53


    The rushed machinations to get the policy done, as demanded by John R. Bolton, the national security adviser, have not been previously reported.

    I read this (and other parts of the article) as Bolton’s being the immediate force in getting the document completed before Trump could ruin it. And yes, he couldn’t do it without others. I figured folks could read the whole article. YMMV.

  54. 54
    dmsilev says:

    @Doug R: You might want to sit down. I’ve got some bad news about Darth Vader.

  55. 55
    Platonailedit says:

    “Chain immigration” for me, none for thee.

    Fucking corrupt treasonous thug of an asshole.

  56. 56
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    She had to clarify the post a couple of times at the bottom because what I think she’s trying to claim is that the Russians actively tried to disguise what they were doing to tamp down Obama and Hillary’s responses until it was too late. That’s what her updates seem to say, anyway, but that definitely didn’t come across.

    She’s not saying that the Democrats also received stolen information from the Russians. She’s saying that the Russians actively worked to prevent the Democrats from realizing how much the Russians knew. Those are two very different things.

  57. 57
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @The Dangerman: Yeah, Hundley was Mr. Pre-season. When Rodgers got hurt last year, he couldn’t do it. He is not an accurate passer. But, like I said, if Rodgers goes down for a lengthy period, the season is fucked. GB’s back-up QBs are there to finish games and cover a short term Rodgers injury.

  58. 58
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    As long as none of the kids sitting near me have a screaming tantrum or hit me with their lightsaber, it should all be good.

  59. 59

    @Mnemosyne: Thanks. I find her posts hard to read and mostly skim them now. I can believe that the Russians would have tried to prevent anyone from realizing how much they knew. And, in that vein, I’ll note that the US intelligence community estimate was that the Republican Party was also hacked, but we have never seen those emails.

  60. 60
    The Dangerman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Yeah, Hundley was Mr. Pre-season.

    I would have added except I can’t edit, he’s a first class Dude; fine, fine gentleman, not a skeleton you’ll find in his closet. A great leader. Fine runner (or was, at least). Just can’t throw the ball.

  61. 61
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @The Dangerman: “Great College QB but not designed for the NFL”

    That should be inscribed above the winner’s name on every Heisman trophy

  62. 62
    Steeplejack says:


    Uh, whiteness was the first thing I mentioned.

  63. 63
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @The Dangerman: I have heard nothing against him as a person. His teammates like him. He just couldn’t do what GB needed from him last year.

  64. 64
    Chip Daniels says:

    If only there were a Congress willing to enforce it.

  65. 65
    dmsilev says:

    If you’ve ever been curious about how a scientist goes about politely calling another scientist a liar who fakes their data, I’d recommend taking a look at this little piece. Adventures in passive-aggressive phraseology.

    Link is to the summary, but the full PDF is only a page or so long.

  66. 66
    The Dangerman says:

    @Steve in the ATL: @Steve in the ATL:

    That should be inscribed above the winner’s name on every Heisman trophy

    Let’s rename it the Pat Sullivan Award (he was actually a bit before my time, but pretty sure he was a massive bust).

    At least Tebow won a few games before he flamed out.

  67. 67
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @TenguPhule: The Soviet Union, however hypocritically, got a huge amount of propaganda mileage out of bashing the US’s horrible civil-rights record (to the point that “But you are lynching Negroes” became shorthand for any instance of Soviet whataboutism). Naturally that was going to piss off racist Americans. Now that Russia is happily embracing and promoting racism everywhere, they’re A-OK with these people.

  68. 68

    @The Dangerman:

    For my money, Baker Mayfield will join them as a bust. Sorry, Cleveland.

    He had fun at the pre-season opener. So did Tyrod Taylor. Let’s see how it goes when AFC North fires up its grind-core applications, aka Steelers and Ravens defenses.


    Mr Wildes called family-based migration “a bedrock of our immigration process”, and when asked if the pair had gained citizenship through the system reportedly replied, “I suppose”.

    It’s almost like they try to out-cognitive-dissonance each other.

  69. 69
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Mnemosyne: I love those kind of shows. We took our daughter to see a Bugs Bunny at the symphony show a few years ago – we all loved and I got a spear and magic helmet


  70. 70
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Just One More Canuck: I do have a spear and magic hewmet.

  71. 71
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Yeah, I’m with you. I think whatever Steele uncovered is a whole lot bigger than Russian ratfucking and peepee tapes.

  72. 72
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Just One More Canuck:

    I saw that one, too, 20+ years ago. We saw 2001: A Space Odyssey here a couple of years ago and that was cool. The one annoying thing is that this is Los Angeles, so a bunch of idiots got up and left as soon as the end credits started rolling even though the orchestra was still playing. Morons.

  73. 73
    tobie says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    The difference is that there’s no evidence that the Democrats would have done anything but call the FBI if they were approached in the way the Trumpies or the NRA were.

    Succinct! I’m not even sure it’s comparable to say that the Democrats hired someone who got some information from Russians and other foreign figures that Trump was colluding with Russia and Trump campaign officials actually colluding with Russia. I’m surprised Wheeler’s making this false equivalence, which also just happens to be how Trump is trying to exonerate himself.

  74. 74
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @Mnemosyne: But that’s some of the best music at the end! Are you at the Dome?

  75. 75
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Please don’t give us a sample. 😘

    (I can’t quite spell Elmer’s pronounciation of “sample” as it deserves.)

  76. 76
    HumboldtBlue says:

    @The Dangerman:

    Steve Spurrier won a Heisman.

    Let that sink in.

    College players he finished ahead of?

    Bob Griese (Purdue), [watched as Earl Morrall, journeyman quarterback who was like, 50, lead the Dolphins to their famous undefeated season and Super Bowl title after he got his leg broke against the Chargers in like, week 5]

    Floyd Little (Syracuse, the last of the Orange to wear the fabled #44 jersey, he was as awesome as Spurrier was trash)

    Terry Hanratty (Notre Dame, he sucked)

    George Patton (Georgia, DL, who knew?)

  77. 77
    Mnemosyne says:

    @The Midnight Lurker:

    Hollywood Bowl.

  78. 78
    The Dangerman says:


    Steve Spurrier won a Heisman. Let that sink in.

    Spurrier was mostly before my time, too; he had some success in the pros, as I recall. Not great, but not a complete dog. I can vaguely remember Plunkett at Stanford. I can vaguely recall the first Monday Night Football game (thought it was going to go noplace; oops).

    Last time I spend any time in Humboldt, it was when 299 and 101 were both closed for landslides (this goes back a year or so). Almost that same way again (I don’t know 101 is closed, but 299, I would guess, still is and will be for a while). Back a year or so ago. I went 36 for a ways, made it to some no horse town (Bridgeville?), went a few more miles and said NFW (it was icy). It can be fun getting there and getting out of there.

  79. 79
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @Mnemosyne: Even better. Seat or blanket?

  80. 80
    Amir Khalid says:

    If a kid hits you with their lightsaber, remember you’ve got one too.

  81. 81
    Jay says:


    I don’t think that Marcie Wheeler is trying to “make a false equivalence”,

    I think she is explaining poorly, her suspicions that the Russian active measures targetted both campaigns, but in different ways, with different disinfo ops and “outreach”.

    As a result, some of the information provided by Steele’s Russian contacts, may be compromised.

  82. 82
    remima says:

    @MomSense: Hey were you the commenter who talked about Hurray for the Riff Raff? If so, I just wanted to let you know that I love them!

  83. 83

    @tobie: With the Steele dossier (which started out funded by a Republican organization), Democrats were paying an organization to dig up dirt on the opposition. A long, if somewhat seamy, tradition in American politics.

    The Russians came to the Trump organization and offered, for free, stolen emails. That’s a campaign donation, in addition to the illegal way they acquired them.

    No equivalence at all. But I don’t think Emptywheel is making that equivalence. It’s the Republicans who are.

  84. 84
    HumboldtBlue says:


    In this short comment I point out a very surprising feature in the data: an identical pattern of noise for two presumably independent measurements of the magnetic susceptibility as a function of temperature.

    Funny, that. <shrug>

  85. 85
    burnspbesq says:

    There is a non-zero probability that Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III could be going to jail. DOJ really pissed off a District Judge today, putting a mother and daughter on a plane and flying them to El Salvador during their hearing.

  86. 86
    dmsilev says:

    @HumboldtBlue: There are a couple of famous cases of faked data which were spotted because the faker didn’t take the trouble to come up with different faked noise patterns for different graphs. Most notably, the Schon scandal:

    As recounted by Dan Agin in his book Junk Science, soon after Schön published his work on single-molecule semiconductors, others in the physics community alleged that his data contained anomalies. Lydia Sohn, then of Princeton University, noticed that two experiments carried out at very different temperatures had identical noise.[3] When the editors of Nature pointed this out to Schön, he claimed to have accidentally submitted the same graph twice. Paul McEuen of Cornell University then found the same noise in a paper describing a third experiment.

    Moral of the story, kids, is that if you’re going to fake your data, take some pride in your work and do it convincingly.

    Well, OK, that’s _one_ possible moral of the story.

  87. 87
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: She didn’t say that the dossier was total disinformation, just that he was fed disinformation by OVD. The point she was hoping to make is that the Russians were playing both sides against the middle and in doing so played us all. Throwing America into disarray is, in my opinion, a far more likely policy of Russia than getting their man into the White House. I find it hard to imagine things would be much more settled in the U.S. if Hilary had won either. Of course we would have approved of her domestic policy on this side of the aisle, just as they would have disapproved on the other side of the aisle.

    Anyone who doesn’t think the current level of political discord, no matter whom one blames, isn’t easily exploited by friends and foes alike, really doesn’t take these things seriously above an emotional level. I think the ten percent of Americans in the cult of Trump are some of the most ignorant horses asses to pass through American history. I’m sure they feel likewise about me and the Obamabots, although I’d wager I’ve given due thought to their opinions without them having done likewise with mine. Still I can address the other twenty percent of Americans that are Republicans on an entirely different level, and when it comes to the political integrity of our institutions I think we should find common ground as Americans first. I ask no more of them than I do of us. I’m not concern trolling anyone either, people can believe whatever they want to believe.

    I have no doubts about Mr. Steele professionalism, he lasted a long time at M6. That doesn’t mean he hasn’t been shoveled BS from his reliable sources. A large portion of intelligence material is manure, but that’s where a good team of analysts comes into play to sort it all out, as you well know. It ain’t no FaceBook pocket pool, beer joint logic these people are doing. Still they can and do make mistakes. I think we are in general in agreement on all these matters.

    Are the seniors still whitewashing LA on the rocks up on Burnt Mountain?

  88. 88
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Spear and magic helmet?

  89. 89
    oldgold says:

    I have followed Wheeler for long time.

    She is a tree person – a damn fine tree person. Doesn’t know much about the forest.

  90. 90
    chopper says:

    @Doug R:

    lando is luke’s father!

  91. 91

    @Just One More Canuck: His spear and magic helmet!!!

  92. 92
    The Midnight Lurker says:

    @EZSmirkzz: I’m going to throw in my two cents here – I really don’t think whatever Steele uncovered was solely a plot to mess with elections in the US. I think it was much, much bigger. I also think if it was largely a pile of ‘manure’, they wouldn’t be trying to kill Steele. And Steele wasn’t just some guy at MI6 – he was THE Russian guy. And everybody went to him for intel, including our own intelligence agencies. Again, my two cents and I’m not too smart about such things.

  93. 93
    chopper says:

    @John Revolta:


  94. 94
  95. 95
    gwangung says:

    @Steeplejack: Ack. noticed that right after posting, and couldn’t get the edit window to work (sorry). (MY thought to add was that we should have been tipped off by their rampant homophobia a few years back).

  96. 96
    Steeplejack says:


    No problem. I just had to check to make sure I wrote what I thought I wrote. Doesn’t always happen. 🙄

  97. 97
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @The Midnight Lurker: I’ll take all the two cents you throw my way ML. No disagreement here with what you’ve said.

  98. 98
    remima says:

    @MomSense: Sorry I think it was Honey Honey that I remember you commenting on. I enjoy them as well.

  99. 99
    Original Lee says:

    @burnspbesq: Wow.

Comments are closed.