Excellent Read(s): Hot Enough For Ya?

From Joshua Keating, at the Washington Post: “This is what happens when climate change forces an entire country to seek higher ground”

Small island states like Kiribati and the Maldives have become symbols of the potential impacts of global warming. At the 2015 Paris climate summit, they pressured larger countries to accept the goal of limiting global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius, rather than two degrees, over preindustrial levels. (It was mostly a symbolic victory: Barring unforeseen circumstances, particularly since the Trump administration pulled the United States out of the accord, both targets will be exceeded.) They are also working to develop first-line defenses against the effects of sea-level rise, including planting mangroves to prevent coastal erosion and improving rainwater-collection systems to protect water quality.

But if none of that works, they may have to consider more drastic options. And so, in 2014, Kiribati purchased about eight square miles on the Fijian island of Vanua Levu for a little less than $9 million, potentially for the purpose of moving its population there one day. “We would hope not to put everyone on one piece of land,” the country’s then-president, Anote Tong, said. “But if it became absolutely necessary, yes, we could do it.” Fiji would become the new home of the nation’s inhabitants, known as the I-Kiribati.

The relocation of people due to climate change isn’t unprecedented. Papua New Guinea has already begun moving the population of the Carteret Islands, a group of low-lying atolls, to the mainland. But this would be the first time an entire country had to relocate because the land on which it was built no longer existed. This raises a new and frightening question: If a country no longer exists in physical form, can it still exist as a political entity? Can a nation just up and move?

I knew Tong by reputation from the impassioned speeches he delivered at U.N. General Assemblies and climate change conferences during his time as president, from 2003 to 2016. So when I visited Kiribati in 2016 to research a book about border changes and the future of the world map, I called him. When we met one afternoon in Tarawa, he had just come in from fishing and was relaxing in shorts and a sleeveless T-shirt in the maneaba, or meeting house, outside his family’s home in a crowded residential neighborhood. John Denver played softly from a Bluetooth speaker. But the former president was troubled. “One of the most difficult things I’ve had to expect is planning for the demise of my country,” Tong told me.

He wants the I-Kiribati to stay if it’s even remotely possible. But, he rued, relocation is probably unavoidable. “The science is pretty clear: zero emissions, we’ll still go underwater. Unless some drastic work is undertaken, there will be no option. That’s the reality. It’s not a hope. It’s not a desire. It’s the brutal reality.”

Yet no one’s quite sure what that reality will look like. When I visited Secretary of Foreign Affairs Akka Rimon, she cracked the joke I’d been afraid to make: “Climate change really put us back on the world map. The irony is that we’re being erased from the world map.” Rimon had tried to think through what relocation could entail, though she didn’t really know how Kiribati’s nationhood could be preserved. “We don’t have the answer. There doesn’t seem to be any entity that looks after that. Sovereignty exists within the borders of your nation, but what happens when that changes? Nobody has the answer,” she said…

… Countries like the Maldives and Kiribati are probably disappearing — and not that long from now. I came to Kiribati expecting to find a place planning for its own destruction, but instead I found something more dispiriting: a place that, with a few exceptions, wasn’t even contemplating that destruction. “Who wants to believe that their home won’t be here?” said Tong. It was an understandable sentiment. “People here don’t even like to plan for next week. But we’ve got to be hardheaded about it.”…

125 replies
  1. 1
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    From the NY Mag article linked above:

    MSNBC’s Chris Hayes — whose show, All In, has distinguished itself with the seriousness of its climate coverage — described the dilemma facing every well-intentioned person in his spot: the transformation of the planet and the degradation may be the biggest and most important story of our time, indeed of all time, but on television, at least, it has nevertheless proven, so far, a “palpable ratings killer.” All of which raises a very dispiriting possibility, considering the scale of the climate crisis: Has the end of the world as we know it become, already, old news?

    I keep saying the MSNBC prime time hosts ought to slip stories about health care and income inequality in between Russia segments. I guess I need to add climate change to the list, but I don’t know how much editorial control they have. And fucking Hayes would just have fucking Joe Barton or some even more obscure extraction lobbyist on. Again, his choice or not, I don’t know.

    And I don’t know if more “mainstream outlets” giving the story more attention would change anything. Between the “yeah, yeah, it’s a shame, somebody oughta do something some day” people and the “I’m wearing shorts in February!” people, I don’t know how, as with so many other issues, you make people care.

  2. 2
    Mike in NC says:

    Fat Bastard will accept climate change as soon as Mar-A-Lago is under water.

  3. 3
    Cermet says:

    Yet this is such small patato’s compared to what will start in twenty to thirty years – summer nights in the equatorial regions that never go below 100 F for the entire night. These terrible nights (and hotter daytime temps) in these humid regions will extend longer. When they occur for a few days on end to a week, the area becomes deadly. This will happen to billions of people; India (all low lying), Southern China, parts of the Middle East and South America. Even the Mississippi valley will (later) follow suit. This, my fellow jackals is the REAL and overwhelming consequence that everyone needs to come to grips with – the forced moment of billions of people to cooler regions and the staggering level of famine, disease, and terrible wars for living space and water. This is what will happen from 2040/50 onward. Add in the loss of most liquid fuels (oil) and the mix spells disaster like the world has never experienced. If this doesn’t frighten you, then you are not human.

  4. 4
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    With the abnormal heat here my electronics have periodic flare ups. Last night my laptop started acting up. I was scrolling past some Facebook friend suggestions and apparently my touchpad decided I wanted to be friends with someone. Damned if he didn’t friend me back, someone from high school a grade back from my class that I don’t remember. Okay fine, so this morning my feed is chock full of RWNJ crap from this guy. Dozens of posts going back 24 hours. I muted a bunch of the pages he posted from (Diamond and Silk, Alex Jones, etc). Facebook’s new controls are not easy to find or very consistently laid out.
    At any rate heat is dangerous, be careful out there.

  5. 5
    chris says:

    @Mike in NC: I don’t think we can wait that long but the flood is coming. Good picture of Mar-a-Lago with and without ten feet of sea level rise.

  6. 6
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: We just have to bundle the Russians with promoting climate denialists in a plot to warm Siberia. That should hook MSNBC.

  7. 7
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: How about telling people we’re shitting in our own mess kits? https://www.thebalance.com/economic-impact-of-climate-change-3305682

    Climate change already costs the economy in many ways. For example, as the country experiences more extremely hot days, food prices will increase.That’s because corn and soybean yields in the United States plummet precipitously when temperatures rise above 84 degrees Fahrenheit.
    Climate change is causing mass migration around the world. Immigrants are leaving flooded coastlines, drought-stricken farmlands, and areas of extreme natural disasters. By 2050, climate change will force 700 million people to emigrate.

    Better build a taller wall, or is that make the pie higher? Find out what sort of work they do and point out how it has already impacted their job/wages. This is one on one stuff for sure, but if you can reach one, you’ll reach ten.

    Same with tax cut https://egbertowillies.com/2017/12/05/ali-velshi-nails-republicans-tax-cut-scam/

    It has been very disappointing the poor job most journalists have been doing to debunk the GOP lies about their tax cut scam. Velshi & Ruhle are a couple of journalists that’s been hard hitting. Velshi, in this clip, shows how one should do these types of critiques.

    It focuses on the middle-class (LIE)
    It won’t benefit the wealthy (LIE)
    It’s terrible for Trump’s family fortune (LIE)
    The tax cut scam will pay for itself (LIE)
    It will help pay down the national debt (LIE)
    .4% boost in GDP will pay for the tax cut scam and more (MISLEADING)

    look people like to be humored, so find a humorous way of laying out the facts.

    A young salesperson at a leather store was telling me all about the failure of Social Security and how she could do better investing her own money, so I asked her how much she had already saved and she wanted to talk about her low wages, so I pointed out she should be saving ten percent of her income to build an investment egg, so she could gamble on the stock markets or commodities, and she said she didn’t make enough to save any money and she was living at her parents house to make ends meet. She thought she was still pwning the libs so I asked her if she had ever made anything besides her bed and maybe a ham sandwich. Pissed her off to the max, but the other clerks had a good laugh and are probably inclined to support Social Security now I hope.

    Facts have a liberal bias but our sense of humor should give them a nice 15 degree edge. JMHO YMMV of course.

    Y’all have good week hear?

  8. 8
    🌷 Martin says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): Well, take some solace that ammunition cooks off at about 145 degrees. The confederate states will see that first.

  9. 9
    Hungry Joe says:

    Rep. Duncan Hunter Jr. (R), running for re-election in CA-50 (eastern San Diego County — the district next to mine): “Thousands of people die every year of cold, so if we had global warming it would save lives … We ought to look out for people. The earth can take care of itself.”

  10. 10
    Sherparick says:

    One still unreported story is but the Climategate episode of 2010 and the manipulation of the right in the interests of petroleum producing states such as Russia and Saudi Arabia may have been a trial run of the 2016 election. In both cases the MSM media took the bait of a “gotcha” story based on stolen emails without realizing they were being manipulated and ethically challenged by their pursuit of eyeballs and clicks. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2016/dec/22/russian-email-hackers-keep-playing-us-for-fools

    In this horror, there are real heroes. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-wildfires-animals/retired-marine-rescues-horses-from-raging-california-wildfire-idUSKBN1KJ09T

  11. 11
    Jay says:


    Don’t google “Human Dew Point”,

  12. 12
    Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.) says:

    I saw this in the paper this morning, but I couldn’t bring myself to read it the whole way through.

  13. 13
    Kelly says:

    The swimming season in the river we live by used to be July and August. A few days in June and September have become most days in June and September plus a few days in May. That change happened in the last 5 years. It’d be great but the wildfires have us covered in smoke for a few weeks a summer now and that trend seems to be accelerating.

  14. 14
    Jay says:


    Annual forest fires here have gotten so bad, we have an ionizing air cleaner, to keep the air in the house breathable.

  15. 15
    Corner Stone says:

    This fucking guy.

    2) Heat hurts productivity well before it reaches dangerous levels

  16. 16
    Mary G says:

    @Hungry Joe: He’s on my list. Maybe in 2020.

  17. 17
    Mary G says:

    @Kelly: It does seem to be accelerating a lot faster than predicted.

  18. 18
    Ruckus says:

    Your link doesn’t like my adblocker. I don’t like their site.
    I understand making money. But we have to come up with a better way than being inundated with crap ads of things I’m never going to purchase or even contemplate purchasing. Decades ago cable used to be the relief from TV ads, after all we do pay for cable access, and/or internet access, and/or movie channels. My internet access is $65/month. That’s just internet access. Oh and fuck Charter in case you might be wondering. They tell me that’s the competitive rate. There is only one provider here, there is no competition, zip, nada, none.
    Back to my rant. We are inundated with ads from all directions, mail, internet, TV, radio, billboards, print. And most of the stuff is crap that we don’t need. Why do we have ads for prescription medications? I’m supposed to demand a prescription for something I may have no need for or that’s dangerous to me from a doc who also gets inundated with salesmen and ads?
    OK I’ll shut up now.

  19. 19
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I just can’t watch him any longer. If he isn’t doing 45 minutes a night about the immigration disaster then fuck him. This isn’t “blog what I want you to blog about” territory. We are destroying these kids.

  20. 20
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    It was mostly a symbolic victory: Barring unforeseen circumstances, particularly since the Trump administration pulled the United States out of the accord, both targets will be exceeded.

    Would it have made enough of a difference if Trump hadn’t pulled us out?

  21. 21
    Kelly says:

    My cousin that lives down by the Rogue River had to evacuate from the Taylor fire yesterday afternoon. They have been on Level 2 “be set to leave at a moments notice” for a week. They were ready. They are optimistic. They have had sprinklers running throughout the wait and have always landscaped with fire in mind. Plenty of water in the Rogue just a few hundred feet away.

  22. 22

    Sure is fun living in a cyberpunk dystopia.

  23. 23
  24. 24
    oatler. says:

    “Soylent Green” from 1972 is a more accurate portrayal of 2018 than any drooling MSNBC pundit-wank.

  25. 25
    Corner Stone says:

    What the hell is a:

  26. 26
    Corner Stone says:

    @oatler.: What I wouldn’t give for a good MSNBC pundit-wank right about now.

  27. 27

    @Corner Stone: Don’t subtweet, it’s rude :P

  28. 28
    A Ghost To Most says:

    5645′ altitude (our house) is looking wiser all the time.

  29. 29
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @Corner Stone: Uh, “Han shot first!”

    Too soon?

  30. 30
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Hungry Joe:
    Mother Earth may have to take care of herself at humans’ expense, if we become a present danger. Indeed, one could argue that this is already happening. The outcome of a conflict between humans and earth will obviously not be to our liking.

  31. 31
    Corner Stone says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Shut up, noobie.

  32. 32
    frosty says:

    @Cermet: A commenter on the now-defunct OilDrum blog had a tagline: “Is mankind smarter than yeast?” My analogy: Beer, yeast eat all the sugar and die: Peak Oil. Wine, yeast eat and eat and die in their own (alcohol) waste: Climate Change. You’re predicting both.

    No, mankind is not smarter than yeast.

  33. 33
    Jay says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    We passed that point 20 years ago.

  34. 34
    Chetan Murthy says:

    @frosty: The Oil Drum! Deepwater Horizon! Good Times! [not! Oh, sigh, also weep.]

    That blog was *brilliant*. I especially loved the explainers about drilling, coal-mining, etc. *Brilliant*.

  35. 35
    Jay says:

    @A Ghost To Most:

    The relief you feel is only temporary.

  36. 36
    chris says:

    @Ruckus: Sorry about that although BI’s ads are not bad.

    Big yes! to the rest of your rant. When I watch US TV I’m amazed by the ads, particularly the drug ads. “This’ll fix what ails you! Warning: May cause leakage and/or death.” WTF1 Also fuck all cable companies.

    One of the reasons drugs are cheaper here in Canada is that the drug companies aren’t allowed to advertise. When Dems control the government…

  37. 37
    Ohio Mom says:

    Being reminded just how awful life on earth is going to get makes me very, very sorry, and guilty, I had a child. Ohio Dad and I are old enough that we will probably miss most of it but I can’t bear to think about how Ohio Son will fare. He is not equipped to handle upturned circumstances.

    @Ruckus: On a lighter note (because I need to distract myself), my favorite internet ad will always be the one for the swimsuit from Macy’s that graced my screen for weeks and weeks *after* I bought it. What did they think they were accomplishing? They already had my money.

  38. 38


    The relief you feel is only temporary.

    Now that would make a good rotating tagline.

  39. 39
    WaterGirl says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Do we still have a ttool for nominating rotating tag lines?

    There was a great line in an article on LGM or Lawfare today: In conclusion, Jake Tapper is very bad at his job.

    I would love to see that as a rotating tag line. :-)

  40. 40
    Amir Khalid says:

    Indeed we did.

  41. 41
    Corner Stone says:

    @Chetan Murthy: Great, Thanks. Next you’ll be ruining the whole caste system thingie for…me…dammit…

  42. 42
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    My parents, whenever I bring up how much hotter it’s been getting within the last 10-15 years always tell me it’s gotten this hot before when they were young. My father in particular seems to subscribe to the idea that the climate is cyclical and that cows had a bigger effect on global warming than anything. Not sure if he was joking, but I would of course point out that cows are still human-caused since we’re the ones who keep them in such large numbers.

    The increasing levels of extreme weather is obviously caused by us. It’s not a conspiracy theory that carbon in the atmosphere retains heat. This has been known since the late 19th century.

  43. 43
    WaterGirl says:

    @WaterGirl: FYWP for not letting me edit to correct “ttool”.

  44. 44


    Do we still have a ttool for nominating rotating tag lines?

    Not at the moment.

  45. 45
    frosty says:

    @Mary G: Accelerating? Yes, if the methane hydrates and permafrost are melting and the forests are burning we may be into the realm of positive feedback and runaway warming. I hope not.

  46. 46
    Steeplejack says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The spoliers are inside the house!

  47. 47
    chris says:

    We just passed the thirtieth anniversary of Dr. James Hanson telling the US congress that global warming is real and here now. They’re still not listening to him.

  48. 48
    frosty says:

    @Chetan Murthy: True, OilDrum was a brilliant blog with people who knew what they were talking about. I miss it. My understanding was that they foundered on differing views of climate change. Ironic, right?

  49. 49

    @chris: No, they’re too busy trying to prove him wrong by hauling snowballs onto the floor.

  50. 50
    Corner Stone says:

    @Steeplejack: @Steeplejack: What is this? A Stephen King novel? Damn youse, Iowa!

  51. 51
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    Climate change is cyclical. It’s driven by the dominant life forms on the planet. The Earth was much hotter, when the great mass of early life forms evolved to live in a carbon dioxide rich environment.

    Then, new life forms evolved to consume carbon dioxide and poison their competition with deadly oxygen.

    Eventually, they changed the environment into a much colder, oxygen rich environment.

    Now of course, we are heading backwords as the dominant life form that spews carbon.

    When the next dominant species arises eventually, after the CO2 based mass extinction, maybe this time it will be intelligent.

  52. 52
    frosty says:

    @Major Major Major Major: As a new back-pager, I’m assigning you the task of updating the taglines. Thanks to Adam, add this one/

    And don’t forget to stay hydrated!

  53. 53
    The Pale Scot says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):

    in a plot to warm Siberia

    I honestly think this could be a thing in Putin’s head. Predicted rainfall patterns are looking to be suitable for agriculture in Siberia. Turning the soil into productive land would take centuries, but Russia’s northern harbors and river mouths become accessible year around. He has to have some kind of end game scenario where Great Russia has gained its rightful place and has global influence. He’s very good at using other people’s shortcoming against them. So sell oil (rope) to the capitalists which they use to ruin their lands. With a wet survivable climate protected by a 1st world equipped military and more than enough nukes to deter attempts to pressure it. The people that own USA politics will happily pony up whatever’s necessary to purchase a dacha in some 1st world mimicking sub-division. Russia stands alone as an organized state with security the Stasi would envy among a world scorched dry.

  54. 54
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Steeplejack: Spoiler was a sled!

  55. 55
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    How do you know?

  56. 56
    Ruckus says:

    It’s not just leakage.
    May cause ANAL leakage and/or death

    If you have too much anal leakage, death is sweet relief.

  57. 57

    @EZSmirkzz: Most humans live in a pile of shit & love it; I don’t think that’ll make any difference.

    By the way, the temp. in my L.A. apartment has not been below 81°F for the last three wks. or so. At least it hasn’t made it above 86°F.

  58. 58
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @The Pale Scot:
    I think Putin might have a long term plan for Russia but I think his regime will die with him. “Greater Russia” will fragment like any other nation will in 60-70 years. Probably before Putin’s body cools.

  59. 59
    Corner Stone says:

    I have credibly been accused of a few things. But this one…

    Now he has been exposed as a devotee of Bigfoot erotica.

  60. 60
    Ohio Mom says:

    @The Pale Scot: Yeah, well that creating productive soil taking centuries is definitely a little bit of a snag, isn’t it? Canada will have the same problem.

  61. 61
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    Yeah, but when they say climate change is cyclical they mean the climate changes irrespective of what humans are doing.

  62. 62
    Ruckus says:

    @M. Bouffant:
    Well it’s 91 right now in Pasadena. And have to go for a walk to the store in 1/2 hr. And heat exacerbates all of my physical crap. Global warming and a heath problem that gets worse with it. Fun times. Tell me again how wonderful it is to be alive in the 21st century.

  63. 63
  64. 64
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    I went to school in Canada. We had these courses called “sciences”.

  65. 65
    chris says:

    @Ruckus: I edited for a family blog. Silly me.

  66. 66
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    Yup, but they are the Common Clay of the New West.

  67. 67
    WaterGirl says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Can my comment above be a manual submission, then?

  68. 68
    WaterGirl says:

    @frosty: I love that video!

  69. 69
    Ruckus says:

    Don’t ever let it fucking happen again, capire?

  70. 70
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    Don’t be a jackass. I was asking how you knew.

  71. 71
  72. 72
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:


    Tell me again how wonderful it is to be alive in the 21st century.

    Beats the alternative, probably.

  73. 73
    efgoldman says:


    When I watch US TV I’m amazed by the ads, particularly the drug ads. “This’ll fix what ails you! Warning: May cause leakage and/or death.”

    Local cable around here seems to be ambulance chasers, class action lawyers, ripoff used car dealers and medicare fraudsters.

  74. 74
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    No, he was being a smartass.

  75. 75
    Ruckus says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
    Well yes, I was hoping for a bit more bucking up.
    OK I know, this is BJ.

  76. 76
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    Like I said, we had these classes called sciences,

    Linky thingy,


    Here in BC, we have this fossil trove called the Burgess Shale.

  77. 77
    hilts says:

    Another good read

    interview with Jeff Goodell,author of The Water Will Come: Rising Seas, Sinking Cities, and the Remaking of the Civilized World

  78. 78
    chris says:

    @efgoldman: Did not know that. I watch MSNBC and some CNN because i hope to see the moment when Mueller’s Hammer comes down. The Big Pharma ads are awful.

  79. 79
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @Ruckus: You need a MIWTBA (MakeItWonderfulToBeAlive) hat. All I got is a IABU (I am bucking up) hat.

  80. 80
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @M. Bouffant: Yeah, the high pressure over us last week is over you this week. Stays around 82 in 96 out with heat index around 100-104. Perhaps we are the renowned frog in the pot of water? I don’t care what most people chose to live in, and I’m not too sure it isn’t more effective than sitting behind a keyboard discussing things with like minded people. Waiting on the DC crowd or ‘political activist’ to do the work is the same as sitting at work and waiting for other people to do the work. It doesn’t get done. We have to engage them.

    What is it we want and when do we want it?

    Don’t expect Nancy Pelosi do a thing until we make her do it. So how do we get people to the polls? It ain’t gonna happen with keyboards and phones, or commenting on blogs, that ship sailed in 2012. It ain’t gonna come from traditional media reporting. This is on us as individuals. This is word of mouth, it’s the only long term, sustainable strategy given the forces arrayed against us.

  81. 81
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Ruckus: Rock m Roll baby, Rock n Roll.

  82. 82
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    Only partially, it is “basic” science. Something you come out of Grade 9 here with knowledge of.

  83. 83
    Jay says:


    “This is on us as individuals. This is word of mouth, it’s the only long term, sustainable strategy given the forces arrayed against us.”

    Double yup!

  84. 84
    raven says:

    @Ruckus: Better than going to Theodoric of York for your dental work!


  85. 85

    @WaterGirl: Sorry, we only accept submissions through the deactivated submission form.

  86. 86
    The Pale Scot says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: After Lenin came Stalin, you can turn up authoritarianism way past “11”. If he can unravel the global organizations and pare Nato down to Germany and France he sit then back and let Nature ignite the chaos. He will die long before it actually starts but he provided a template. What’s his plan for dragging China down, that will be interesting.

    @Ohio Mom:
    Depends on how many people your planning on feeding

  87. 87
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:


    Don’t expect Nancy Pelosi do a thing until we make her do it.

    There’s currently little Pelosi could do anyway. She’s fairly liberal anyway, so I don’t think she would need to made to do anything regarding climate change.

  88. 88
    chris says:

    Yup, went right on by.

    2018, when "devotee of Bigfoot erotica" — (yeah, big"foot") — is uttered in politics without anyone blinking https://t.co/uhEfovTV0i— Molly McKew (@MollyMcKew) 30 July 2018

  89. 89
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @The Pale Scot:
    Didn’t Lenin basically designate Stalin his successor? Putin so far hasn’t done that. Make no mistake, there will likely be some kind of power struggle when he dies or is overthrown, all the way up to open civil war.

  90. 90
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    “Despite Lenin’s opposition, he assumed leadership over the country shortly after the former’s death in 1924. ”

    Mike Pence?

  91. 91

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: But she has to deal with her own caucus, and could barely get a flawed cap-and-trade bill passed in 2009… which earned her no favors, as the Senate promptly ignored it.

  92. 92
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Jay: I’m not interested in reaching the 70% of Republicans that support madness for the sake of greatness. They make up about, what, 22% of the population? I’ll settle for 52% of the voting population. We don’t have point out flaws in what they are doing, we, I think should point what we want and how it could benefit the disengaged.

    As we all know the Revolutionary War was fought between one third Patriots one third Tories, and one third sit on our asses and make money off of it. Such is life.

    “It does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people’s minds” — Samuel Adams

  93. 93
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: The question then, is what do you want her to do about climate change?

    We need solutions, not reaffirmation of problems.

  94. 94
    Mike in NC says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: Rent the satire “Death of Stalin” with Steve Buscemi. Supposedly a lot of the material was based on real events.

  95. 95
    Ruckus says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):
    See you did help.

  96. 96
    Jay says:


    There were solutions, 20 years ago. Now there are not.

  97. 97
    Ruckus says:

    See, now that’s what I’m talking about.

  98. 98
    Millard Filmore says:


    Climate change is cyclical. It’s driven by the dominant life forms on the planet.

    It is also driven by the placement of land masses. We may get an unsurvivable heat pulse due to our activity, but Antarctica is still over the south pole blocking the transfer of tropical heat to the area. And the Arctic is almost surrounded by Europe-Siberia and Alaska-Canada which constricts any oceanic transfer heat. After we are gone, the earth will cool again.

    palaeos.com is an easy site to browse through on Life Through Deep Time

  99. 99
    Jay says:


    Yup, GOTV, the Rethug’s are another Lost Cause,

    But The Reformation 2.0 needs to grind them out of existence.

  100. 100
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    I don’t disagree. I’m just saying there’s little she could do now since she isn’t even Speaker of the House. There won’t even be a possibility of getting real solutions until Democrats control the federal government again.

  101. 101
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Which is why we need to put pressure on legislators.

  102. 102
    The Pale Scot says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: I coulda swore that Lenin warned the Party against Stalin, where’s Adam when you need him

  103. 103
    Jay says:

    @Millard Filmore:

    Yup, but geologic time isn’t kind to species. The Earth will survive, we and a lot of other species won’t survive.


    It will be a world, but a much different one.

  104. 104
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: I’m not disagreeing with you either, I’m just saying we need to vocal about the rejoining Paris Accord, making massive investments in solar and wind power, and weening people and industry off of fossil fuels. There’s really no reason why Exxon couldn’t be investing massively in alternative energy if they were incentivized to see past the next 3 months of fiduciary responsibility to their investors. It seems a no brainer that global warming is a massive fiduciary responsibility that they are encouraged to ignore by the lazy, greedy and ignorant.

    And to think, some people have the temerity to say we live in the stupidest country on Earth.

  105. 105
    Jay says:

    @The Pale Scot:

    “Lenin’s Testament is the name given to a document (supposedly; perhaps generated by his secretary who was also his wife: Nadezhda Krupskaya) “written” (he was partially paralyzed and severely ill due to successive strokes) or dictated by Vladimir Lenin in the last weeks of 1922 and the first week of 1923. In the testament, Lenin proposed changes to the structure of the Soviet governing bodies. Sensing his impending death, he also commented on the leading members of the Soviet Union to ensure its future. He suggested Joseph Stalin be removed from his position as General Secretary of the Russian Communist Party’s Central Committee.”


    “Comrade Stalin, having become Secretary-General, has unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution. Comrade Trotsky, on the other hand, as his struggle against the C.C. on the question of the People’s Commissariat of Communications has already proved, is distinguished not only by outstanding ability. He is personally perhaps the most capable man in the present C.C., but he has displayed excessive self-assurance and shown excessive preoccupation with the purely administrative side of the work.

    These two qualities of the two outstanding leaders of the present C.C. can inadvertently lead to a split, and if our Party does not take steps to avert this, the split may come unexpectedly.”

  106. 106
    PIGL says:

    @Corner Stone: i want to hear you deny it.

  107. 107
    J R in WV says:

    I took Stephen Jay Gould’s book about the Burgess Shale on a trip to the Virgin Islands for reading. Didn’t actually get very much reading done for all the snorkeling and find dining and such on the sailboat. But it was and is a fine book about very strange fossils.

    The fact that the best people studying them got a few upside down is not important compared to the mere fact that we discovered them at all, soft-bodied critters from hundreds of millions of years ago.., amazing!

  108. 108
    Chetan Murthy says:


    There’s really no reason why Exxon couldn’t be investing massively in alternative energy if they were incentivized to see past the next 3 months of fiduciary responsibility to their investors.

    Perhaps think of it in terms of the Prisoner’s Dilemma?

    (1) Exxon’s -directors- and -execs- have VERY GOOD reasons to not invest in alternative energy: it would cut into their stock price and therefore short-term pay

    (2) Sure in the long-term, if nobody invests in alternative energy, those guys’ offspring face a chance of being ribeye steaks, but OTOH, if Exxon’s directors don’t invest, but everybody does, then their offspring get all the profits, and still get to life in a decent world.

    Prisoner’s Dilemma.

    It’s well-understood how to solve such problems when you only get one chance to play: “collective action”. In short: government. Don’t ask of these assholes what their incentives forbid them from delivering; instead, ask our governments to change their incentives.

    Just to be clear: I’m 100% with you; I often think about my poor niece/nephews, who will have to live in this world we’re leaving them. Shameful. Government is how we tackle collective action problems.

    Oh, and just to be clear: I am LIVID that we allow corps to not pay serious taxes, b/c those taxes are COMPENSATION for the “corporate barrier” (== “profits for me, losses for alla YOU SUCKAS!”)

  109. 109
    p.a. says:

    When you hear a warming denier, ask them what they spend their Nobel money on: if they’ve proved CO2 isn’t an atmospheric insulator, they must have the chemistry, possibly physics, prize.

  110. 110
    chopper says:



  111. 111
    Another Scott says:

    @EZSmirkzz: Exxon didn’t ignore the climate change science. They were conducting their own research and knew the science almost 40 years ago. Their corporate management knew, but decided to fight by spreading disinformation to prevent doing anything about it.

    Scientific American (from 2015) has more.

    BP had a decent effort in solar energy research and development (in suburban Maryland) for years.

    They all know the need and the benefits – they simply don’t care. They will all chase the higher profit-margin business even if it literally kills the next generation. If they’re able, that is…



  112. 112
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Chetan Murthy: Agreed.

    But until the government does do something to wake up the capitalists, then we should do all we can to point out to the people how the current policies are playing out against their own self interests.

    My main concern is that the generic left is playing the generic right’s game, which is running the last election. We have to be positive and optimistic, and losing our good nature because we got played in the last election isn’t the most beneficial use of our personal energy resources either. None of that stuff means a fucking thing.

    So yeah, it’s time we stuck a big government boot up their asses. We need universal health care, we need universal education, we need livable wages, we need a sustainable economic model. No one cares if we think the President is a dork. We need to talk to them about what they are interested in. Find out what they want, and when do they want it. Everyone’s just sitting around on their asses right now, deluding themselves that they are having an impact with their rhetoric. No one wants to have to listen to constant bitching, especially about other people, at least I don’t. What am I supposed to do with that besides go find a fishing pole?

  113. 113
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Another Scott: Like I said, we need to put a big government boot up their asses to get their attention. That means we have to put people into the voting booths with a bad attitude about do nothing/go along get along Democrats too. This country is starting to look like the Alfred E Nueman of the world.

  114. 114
  115. 115
    Another Scott says:


    We need to talk to them about what they are interested in. Find out what they want, and when do they want it. Everyone’s just sitting around on their asses right now, deluding themselves that they are having an impact with their rhetoric.

    I’m not sure who “everyone” is in your statement above.

    E.g. FTFNYT (from April):

    Republicans Lost Support in Every Special Election Since Trump Became President


    Democrats are fired up, large numbers of Republicans are retiring rather than running for re-election, etc.

    People aren’t sitting on their asses. Women, especially, are fired up. They’re working hard, and have decent results to show for it. And with continued effort we’ll do very well in 100 days…


  116. 116
    EZSmirkzz says:

    @Another Scott: Anyone on this side of the grass everyone.

  117. 117
    Another Scott says:

    @EZSmirkzz: Rhetoric is what makes people decide to give money, decide to make calls and mail post cards, decide to volunteer, decide to knock on doors, decide to drive voters to the polls.

    Talking isn’t enough. But it’s vital to drive our side to take action.

    And lots and lots of people on our side, here, are doing much more than just being keyboard commandos…


  118. 118
    opiejeanne says:

    @A Ghost To Most: We have two properties. Our year round place near Seattle is only about 450′ above sea level. It’s been damned hot here today and for a couple of weeks, but we’re promised some cooler weather next weekend. Might get a little rain, but it’s not enough.

    The cabin in the San Bernardino Mountains in SoCal is above a mile high and the temps during the day are about 10 degrees cooler than where our house is but that area is so dry now that I’m afraid of someone dropping a cigarette anywhere in a 2- mile radius of it.

  119. 119
    Ruckus says:

    Couldn’t figure out how to spell understand in Sicilian, as my ancestors would have put it (Great granddad was supposed to be a Mafia hit man who was asked to leave Sicily by the boss because he liked his job just a bit too much. Family lore, have no idea how true it is or isn’t.) so I went to google translate. It said that was understand in Italian. In my head it sounds like the godfather. Capice is the best I could do.

  120. 120
    Ruckus says:

    @Another Scott:
    BP was putting up solar powered gas stations in Franklin County, OH about 15 yrs ago. The entire canopy was solar cells. Not sure if they ran on batteries at night or just went online. The installer told me that there were enough cells to more than run the entire station for the day.

  121. 121
    The Pale Scot says:

    @Another Scott: It’s not just a thinner profit margin. The confirmed amount of oil the corp has possession of makes up a large portion of the share price, even unconfirmed deposits have a role. Probably the next effector of share price is the value of industrial plant and equipment, AND the in-house expertise to run it. Without these, the oil corp is a financial basket case, sort a like Trump. The oil industry could have a role in high capital requiring renewables, but they could never lead the way. From what I’ve heard there aren’t many second gen petroleum engineers, nobody wants their kids to become, uncertain career path etc

  122. 122
    The Pale Scot says:


    Thanks Jay, this sets me up to post my favorite Python clip, well except for.. let’s not get into that. Anyway,

    The Russian 42nd International Clambake

    Edit: I meant petroleum geologists

  123. 123
    Aleta says:

    @Another Scott: Speculating, and this isn’t well thought out: The oil companies and Russia look to benefit from the ice caps melting. New drilling sites are opening up in the Arctic. More/better shipping routes for goods. (Easier mining and drilling in Siberia?) Lots of minerals are thought to be in Antarctica, and I believe some countries have taken the long view in that case, by developing a research presence there now so that they can participate in decisions and lay claims in the future.

    I saw that the US and Russia and a few others have recently agreed on a completely voluntary agreement (fw that’s worth) about a few rules for ships in the Arctic. I remember that (before the election) Clinton as SoS participated in a group of Northern European countries trying to come up with (iirc) environmental protections for the Arctic. Anticipating, I think, what could happen there without such an agreement.

    I wondered if this was another reason Russia wanted Clinton defeated. Russian perspective could be that there are big benefits to climate warming if they get in position now.

    Which also makes me think of Japan’s rationalization for ‘expanding’ in the 30s: they needed resources and oil to develop industrially and militarily. So they formed The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere. There was some idealistic propaganda, which some believed, but in fact the nationalist movement and the military wanted to invade, dominate and exploit.

    eta US conservatives are writing about the need to cooperate with Russia on the needs we have in common.

  124. 124
    Chacal Charles Calthrop says:

    @The Pale Scot: this. Reserves, proven & unproven, have traditionally been the way energy companies were valued. If those reserves can’t be ever used, then the value evaporates. Hence the whole climate denial disinformation campaign.

  125. 125
    Robert Sneddon says:

    @The Pale Scot: It doesn’t work that way, sorry. Insolation is the key to growing plants, the total amount of light per square metre drives photosynthesis. At high latitudes like Siberia there just isn’t a lot of it even with global warming which doesn’t effect light intensity. Indeed increased global warming will produce more cloud from increased seawater temperatures, increased evaporation and a warmer atmosphere which increases humidity. This will reflect light away from the planet and result in reduced insolation. Increased cloud cover is a negative driver for warming but only a minor one, overshadowed by the heat-trapping effects of moisture in the air.

    TL:DR: No-one’s going to be growing sugar cane in Siberia or the Canadian Shield even when it’s several degrees warmer there.

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