Compare and Contrast

Today, before the inflamed and pulsating orange pustule that occupies the Oval Office departed to embarrass us in Europe, he was asked by a reporter why his administration missed a deadline to return migrant kids under age five to the parents from whom his minions had jacked them. Trump said this:

“Tell people not to come to our country illegally,” Trump told reporters. “That’s the solution. Don’t come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally.”

Trump, who has previously advocated denying due process for migrant families accused of crossing the southern border illegally, also brushed off a reporter’s question about whether he was calling for punishing children.

“I’m saying this: We have laws,” he said. “We have borders. Don’t come to our country illegally. It’s not a good thing.”

Also Trump, also today:

President Trump on Tuesday pardoned father-and-son cattle ranchers in southeastern Oregon who were sentenced to serve prison time on two separate occasions for the same charges of arson on public lands, a move their supporters hailed as a shift in how the federal government approaches the West.

Trump’s decision to set aside the convictions of Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond could have major implications for how federal officials enforce rules on grazing and other activities on tens of millions of acres owned by taxpayers.

To recap, the law must rule with an iron fist when dealing with Central American toddlers whose desperate parents fled violence and chaos in their home countries — conditions frequently caused and exacerbated by decades of sleazy US government policies and corporate depredations. But freeloading arsonists who put firefighters in mortal danger and destroy federal property merit a pardon.

The rancher-arsonist pardons, like the Arpaio pardon, are a sop to the MAGA chuds. Unlike every awful Republican president I can remember, Trump doesn’t even pretend to give a shit about anyone but his base, which comprises a dwindling but still depressingly large chunk of the electorate.

Trump will keep throwing bloody chunks of cow at his base from now to November, as enthusiastically as if he were pelting Hurricane Maria victims with paper towels from a Sam’s Club mega-pack. We either turn our folks out this November, or we are even more screwed. It’s as simple as that.

Open thread.

177 replies
  1. 1
    cmorenc says:

    I find myself torn between the strong urge to hide myself under the bed-covers, hoping I and this country will somehow awaken from this nightmare at least partly in Nov 18 and mostly in Nov 20, and the strong urge to constantly shout out the window a la Network and storm the streets to overthrow Trump and his monsters forthwith.

    I conclude that periods of doing each are necessary to keep sanity and hope alive.

    For the next 2-3 hours, I’m going to bury myself in the figurative bedcovers to watch the Belgium v. France WC semifinal, and return to yelling and storming the streets tomorrow.

  2. 2
    Corner Stone says:

    After Trump does whatever he thinks he can to try and remove the US from NATO, I wonder if we will finally hear another world leader publicly and roundly condemn Trump for a buffoon and mental patient?

  3. 3
    lowtechcyclist says:

    Trump is on the side of the cops when they take on brown toddlers, but not when they take on white supremacists. It’s that simple.

  4. 4
    trollhattan says:

    Reagan started this shit in the West by meeting with and encouraging the Sagebrush Rebellion thieves, then installing James Watt to dish them virtually everything they could steal while Neil Gorsuch’s mommy to make sure the neighbors weren’t protected while they destroyed the environment. Trump is a Reagan who can’t tell a folksy joke.

  5. 5
    Shell says:

    But freeloading arsonists who put firefighters in mortal danger and destroy federal property merit a pardon.

    But theyre here legally. Well, not when they were squatting on and torching federal land, but you know what I mean.

  6. 6
    Hildebrand says:

    I shouldn’t be surprised any more, but I am once again surprised by the complete, utter lack of sympathy or empathy in Trump and the rest of the Republican horde. How hard is it to feel something, anything for people in horrible situations? How dead inside do you have to be to think and act like this?

  7. 7
    Corner Stone says:

    After Trump’s recent comments about the UK being in anarchy, or disaster or similar, I would hope T May and the Queen would refuse his entry into the country. Or something else appropriately middle-fingerish.

  8. 8
    germy says:

    We either turn our folks out this November, or we are even more screwed.
    It’s as simple as that.

    Hoping for a Blue Wave.

    No, a Blue Tsunami.

  9. 9
    Roger Moore says:

    Trump doesn’t believe the law is supposed to be an impartial arbiter. He sees it as a weapon to be used to attack one’s enemies and defend one’s friends. Rule of law is a completely foreign concept to him, and it’s hopeless to expect anything else.

  10. 10
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @trollhattan: Yep, as always let 1980 be your guide. Every graph I’ve ever seen about any subject starts a downward trend in 1980 (only have sarcastic).

  11. 11
    Corner Stone says:

    The rancher pardons are going to get some poor federal lands worker murdered.

  12. 12
    Corner Stone says:

    I didn’t watch it but did Kavanaugh open his acceptance speech by declaring his first act as a Justice would be to enshrine in precedent that Trump is 6’3″ and 239lbs today and forever?

  13. 13
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    There need to be consequences for the Bundys. Perhaps some public shunning is in order?

  14. 14
    donnah says:

    I wonder if there’s a tipping point, something so egregious that even the most hard-hearted Republican would give a little. Since we’ve seen infants literally stolen from their parents and an island population in dire conditions go unaided and a new Supreme Court justice pre-selected for a seat that will probably change our democracy for generations to come, I guess there won’t be that one grand moment.

    Start now, if you haven’t already, and support your local Democratic candidates, make sure friends and family members are registered to vote, check to make sure older and senior voters are still registered. My mom has missed a couple of primaries due to illness, so I’m going to make sure she’s still on the rolls. And plan to drive those who can’t drive themselves.

    Who knows how much the Russians have tampered with our system, but we can’t sit around and wait to find out. November will be here before we realize it. Our democracy will depend on it.

  15. 15
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @donnah:
    This.

  16. 16
    Shell says:

    surprised by the complete, utter lack of sympathy or empathy in Trump

    Just burble “Our hopes and prayers…” every so often. That satisfies their empathy quota, as far as theyre concerned.

  17. 17
    TenguPhule says:

    But freeloading arsonists who put firefighters in mortal danger and destroy federal property merit a pardon.

    Federal Officials obviously shouldn’t bother to try and arrest white sovereign citizens.

    They should just shoot them and save us the expense of a trial followed by a pardon.

    /?

  18. 18
    TenguPhule says:

    @donnah:

    I wonder if there’s a tipping point, something so egregious that even the most hard-hearted Republican would give a little.

    No, SATSQ. Trump has already telegraphed exactly what Republicans are going to do if they fail to win the election.

    Refuse to acknowledge the results as legitimate.

  19. 19
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @donnah: There is no tipping point. By the time we’re in the boiling water it will be too late. I think Adam needs to do a post about how liberals need to arm up and how to do it if you have no experience, because they’re coming for us eventually. The 3%, the Militia etc. are all being prepped to be Trump’s extrajudicial enforcement corps. Don’t think it could happen? No one thought Trump would be president 2 years ago.

  20. 20
    TenguPhule says:

    @Corner Stone:

    The rancher pardons are going to get some poor federal lands worker murdered.

    Every federal employee’s life is worth a little bit less today.

  21. 21
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Refuse to acknowledge the results.

    Yeah, I’m sure that would work out perfectly for them //

    See this: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DystopiaIsHard

  22. 22
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Corner Stone:

    After Trump’s recent comments about the UK being in anarchy,

    For a moment there, I was marvelling at the news that Trump was a Sex Pistols fan.

    The Trump administration is willfully disobeying a judge.This must mean some kind of court sanction. What’s going to happen in that regard?

  23. 23
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @TenguPhule: Always has been. Oklahoma, Alfred P. Murrah Federal building.

  24. 24
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Donald Trump is illegal in every way.

  25. 25
  26. 26
    The Dangerman says:

    We have borders. Don’t come to our country illegally.

    Has anyone seen any documented arrest by ICE (or whomever) of someone of, shall we say, a more European Heritage?

  27. 27
    J R in WV says:

    I saw the news about the arsonists who’s prison sentences — those poor boys!– on BBC, while NO American news outlet had a mention of that story!

    Also saw, way down deep in the cave rescue story that the final 3 Thai Navy divers and a doctor were out of the hell hole. Also that a big vehicle with 11 people in it had gone off a road, injuries reported but no details.

    Trying not to think of the vileness that inhabits 1600 Pennsylvania right now. Whatever he says about anything, it’s worse than I can imagine, so I’ve quit.

    Whatever Putin has on Trump, and it is obvious that he controls Trump completely and totally, it is way past prostitutes in a hotel room. That would just be shrugged off as boys will be boys, as despicable is that reaction would be.

    I’m thinking something much worse, but my imagination fails. Thankfully!

  28. 28
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @TenguPhule: To be a sovcit is to be a mass of contradictions that can be resolved in two ways. One is not pleasant at all.

  29. 29
    Adam L Silverman says:

  30. 30
    Adam L Silverman says:

    I just want to emphasize this one:

  31. 31
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    “I’m saying this: We have laws,” he said. “We have borders. Don’t come to our country illegally. It’s not a good thing.”

    That doesn’t excuse you to lock up children in chain-link fence cages. Laws can be wrong. They can be interpreted in their enforcement to do what was never intended. There is no law that made you kidnap children from their parents. You chose to do that Trump, and history will judge you for that.

  32. 32
    TenguPhule says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    Yeah, I’m sure that would work out perfectly for them

    Didn’t say it would. But every institution has failed or is in the process of failing. Much as I’d love to see the FBI or local police arresting and frogmarching the Republicans in federal government for refusing to turn over power peacefully, its an open question as to what would actually happen in that event. Simply because its been “unthinkable”, we know how its supposed to work in a perfect world, but this is a world where Republicans break the rules and the law with impunity unless caught almost literally with their pants down and their hands on the murder weapon.

  33. 33
    MomSense says:

    @donnah:

    I think the people who are still Republican are lost to us forever.

    What I have found unnerving this whole time, increasingly so since the child abductions, is that the Republicans in Congress and trump administration are not behaving as though they expect to be held accountable. I fear the election fix is in. So, like you I think the only hope we have is to win so decisively, run up such huge margins, that the elections can’t be stolen.
    The GOP senators who spent Independence Day kissing Russia’s ass set off all my alarm bells. And now Kavanaugh, who is on the record saying essentially that presidents can’t be prosecuted, is just the he fucking get out of jail free card trump wants.

    I want to burn shit down I’m so mad.

  34. 34
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Also, both the parent and the child who’s been in the government’s custody “might be U.S. citizens.”

    JFC. HHS head and ICE head need to be fucking marched up against a wall and shot.

    Fuck civility.

  35. 35
    MomSense says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Wait what???? May be US citizens?

  36. 36
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TenguPhule: Your options are sternly worded tweet or nothing. Sorry, the menu on Tuesdays is somewhat limited.//

  37. 37
    TenguPhule says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    What’s going to happen in that regard?

    Nothing much. if past performance is any indicator.

  38. 38
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Also, both the parent and the child who’s been in the government’s custody “might be U.S. citizens.”

    Extrajudicial imprisonment?

    DOJ says one child under 5 can’t be reunited because “the parent’s location has been unknown for more than a year.”

    At risk of sounding like an idiot, what’s the significance of this one?

  39. 39
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Shades of the War on Terror. We’re back to “Abducted and imprisoned by your own government? Fuck you, no legal recourse!”

  40. 40
    Leto says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Absolute fucking shitshow in every single way. What about the other 54? Also, because they lie about every single thing, I don’t believe them about the 14.

  41. 41
    TenguPhule says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    At risk of sounding like an idiot, what’s the significance of this one?

    The kid is now an orphan due to poor record keeping.

  42. 42
    Betty Cracker says:

    @MomSense: They are counting on our apathy. Honestly, it’s not a bad bet, but I hope to God enough people who used to be apathetic are now outraged. On the ground, I’ve seen it, but anecdata… Like you said, run up the numbers so the elections can’t be stolen.

  43. 43
    TenguPhule says:

    @Leto:

    Also, because they lie about every single thing, I don’t believe them about the 14.

    Hell, I don’t even believe them about the 34. Live interviews with the reunited families of GTFO HHS.

  44. 44
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @MomSense: Not uncommon, but fortunately a somewhat rare occurrence. ICE and CBP often wind up scarfing up US citizens, or, at least, legal/documented resident aliens. This is especially true with ICE because of how the enforcement side of the house does its sweeps. In CBP’s case it happens when they run their checkpoints or stops and searches. Often within 100 miles of the border or an entry point to the US. Since almost no Americans travel with their passports, let alone their birth certificates in their day to day lives, movements, and travels, the CBP officers conducting the stops make a determination of whether they believe any given person’s claims of being a citizen or a documented/legal resident alien. The worst cases is they do a quick determination and deportation, dumping a US citizen over the border in Mexico with no actual documentation. Which makes it hard for them to get back into the US.

  45. 45
    ruemara says:

    I hate these people. I hate this country. I hate all the people who said this was hyperbole & that they won’t be conned into the lesser of two evils. I hate everyone who supports this regime. I hate Russia. I hate the inactivity of Americans who sit here like if they fret & share memes, that’s doing something. I hate their comfort. If hate were a fuel, I could run a planet. I do not hate my hate, because they’ve earned it. America didn’t fall this fast, Americans jumped head first into it.

  46. 46
  47. 47
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    You are apparently better off trapped in a remote flooded cave in monsoon season than in the Trump administration’s custody. https://t.co/SG660kOGVI— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) July 10, 2018

  48. 48
  49. 49
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @MomSense:
    Could also have as much to do with arrogant overconfidence or the fact that they know they’re going to lose and are trying to break as much shit as possible on the way out.

  50. 50
    TenguPhule says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    Oklahoma, Alfred P. Murrah Federal building.

    Value actually went up back when it was made clear there were consequences for attacking federal employees.

    Now, if I were on federal lands as an employee, I’d be worried about the target that just sprouted on my back.

  51. 51
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: Same case. The parent and child may be citizens and the government doesn’t know where the parent is.

  52. 52
    LAO says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    At risk of sounding like an idiot, what’s the significance of this one?

    Oh, IDK — the US took the kid, kept the kid and deported the parent(s) to parts unknown.

  53. 53
    TenguPhule says:

    @ruemara: Come sit by me.

  54. 54
    Jager says:

    @The Dangerman:

    Page one, rule one of the ICE Handbook:

    If they’re brown, take em down

  55. 55
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Leto: From my reading the reporting so far today, Judge Gee is not amused. I fully expect that some contempt determinations are going to be handed out if the DOJ attorneys defending the government on this keep trying to have their cake and eat it too despite her telling them they get no cake and there will be no eating anything anyway.

  56. 56
    Gravenstone says:

    @Adam L Silverman: A broad net sometimes catches innocent fish…

  57. 57
    jacy says:

    @MomSense:

    You’re assuming people a) think things through to logical consequences, and b) act rationally in accordance. You have to remember that most people, when faced with something unpleasant, will ignore it. You’re assuming that the Republicans are doing what they’re doing because they have some assurance they’ll get away with it. More likely, they’re just living in the moment and trying to get whatever they can while the getting is good. They’re not thinking about the future, because the future is scary. People who do bad things do them precisely because they do not think of the consequences, especially when things start to spiral out of control. Then it’s pretty much in for a dime, in for a dollar. It’s rare there is an attack of conscience that just makes people stop once they’re started down that road.

  58. 58
    Mary G says:

    I think that the fact that it only took six years after Watergate to get Bedtime for Bonzo elected and marketed into a cargo cult of Best President Evah™ taught Republicans that they can get away with murder and the ignoramuses who are a far too large percentage of the American electorate will conveniently forgive and forget in order to act out their racism. Trump is just accelerating the trend.

  59. 59
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Betty Cracker: Everyone who protests has to vote. And they have to register a friend and bring them along. And that friend has to register a friend and bring them along to vote. If all that happens is the protests, but not the voting, then things will get worse.

  60. 60
    Leto says:

    @MomSense: What I see a lot of, from Republicans, is excusing the kidnappings, doing bothsiderisms (OBAMA WAS JUST AS BAD), or offering a similar rational to Trump (DON’T COME ILLEGALLY). You’re correct in your assessment: they’re lost to humanity, forever.

    I want to burn shit down I’m so mad.

    I’ve been this way for a long time now. Just today I found out there’s a SC Secessionist Party (I honestly shouldn’t be surprised, but I am). They’re going to have their third annual Confederate Flag raising day on the state capitol steps. If we could agree to let them all go, in exchange for all the people who don’t want to live there (or the new US) to leave peacefully, I might be for that. Let them have their wide open tracks of uninhabitable land, with no-one there to do the manual work next to the super fund sites, with no regulations or workers rights… let them finally have their dystopian evangelical nightmare they so fervently want.

  61. 61
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: Pretty much.

  62. 62
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Oh shut. Trump deported a US citizen and orphaned a kid. What a fucking monster. This needs to be blown up all over the media. The Trump admin violated a US citizen’s rights and orphaned their child. That alone should sink the fucker.

    Verbally beat down anyone who tries to make excuses for that.

  63. 63
    The Thin Black Duke says:

    @J R in WV: Don’t overthink it, alright? I think it’s as simple as Trump owes Putin a shitload of money, and if Trump doesn’t do what Putin tells him to do, he’s dead. That’s all. Bottom line, if a video surfaced of Trump killing a child, the people who voted for him, the talking heads on FOX and the Republican Party wouldn’t give a damn.

  64. 64
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: And they both may be citizens, but the government, after a year, still can’t figure it out. Or doesn’t want to.

  65. 65
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Or doesn’t care.

  66. 66
    ruemara says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Option 2. these people are only incompetent at doing good. They’re quite competent at evil.

  67. 67
    Leto says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Does Judge Gee have any enforcement ability if they find the government in contempt? Basically, how do they enforce the ruling? I keep thinking of that old quote, “Yes, they have made that ruling, now lets see them enforce it.”

  68. 68
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Leto: US Marshals.

  69. 69
    Leto says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Trump: NO COLLUSION, NO COLLUSION!

    US Marshal: I don’t care!

    Trump jumps off the Hoover Dam.

    /end scene

  70. 70
    Jager says:

    @Leto:

    No, he gets captured trying to get his fat ass over the guardrail.

  71. 71
    Karen S. says:

    @ruemara:
    Yep.

  72. 72
    Mary G says:

    I’ve linked to this LA Times article from April before about the American citizen held by ICE for 1,200+ days before being released. The average time citizens picked up are detained is 180 days. Six momths!
    http://www.latimes.com/local/l.....story.html

  73. 73
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: The Holocaust was perfectly legal under Reich law.

    Just sayin’.

  74. 74
    TenguPhule says:

    Wapo is letting Ken Fucking Starr write a tongue bath for his former minion Kavanaugh.

  75. 75
    TenguPhule says:

    And the numbers are revised (this is my surprised face). Instead of 54 reunited kids, HHS is down to 38 of 102.

  76. 76
    danielx says:

    @Hildebrand:

    How dead inside do you have to be to think and act like this?

    Very.

  77. 77
    gene108 says:

    @donnah:

    I wonder if there’s a tipping point, something so egregious that even the most hard-hearted Republican would give a little.

    A 2008 style economic collapse, which directly impacts people. Others in this blog have speculated, and it makes some sense to me, that people vote for the “like to have a beer with” guy for President, when things are good and there’s no harm in letting an asshole be in charge, because it’d be more fun.

    Otherwise, I doubt there is anything that can change people in the short term.

    For a lot of Republicans, it is a matter of defending their very existence as it relates to their privileged status as white people. There’s no rational way to combat it.

  78. 78
    TenguPhule says:

    @gene108:

    There’s no rational legal humane way to combat it.

    Corrected,

  79. 79
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Would the US Marshalls arrest the HHS secretary? I doubt it.

  80. 80
    NotMax says:

    However shall he occupy his time before Fox & Friends airs at noontime in Europe?

  81. 81
    gene108 says:

    @MomSense:

    I want to burn shit down I’m so mad.

    Come, sit by me. I have matches.

  82. 82
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    The IIIers and militias can try to come to Los Angeles, but I wouldn’t advise it. It turns out that all of those brown people they despise love their guns around here and know how to use them.

    And I would ask the same question I’ve asked TP in the past — how do you picture a small group of militia controlling all 4,751 square miles of Los Angeles County?

  83. 83
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @gene108:

    Otherwise, I doubt there is anything that can change people in the short term.

    As dark as this sounds, would beating them up work?

  84. 84
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    He probably imagines they would just compliment the regular federal forces, rather than be an occupying force unto themselves.

  85. 85
    jacy says:

    @danielx:

    Assuming they were ever alive inside. Mostly I think they’re just hollow.

  86. 86
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Adam L Silverman: When I referred to facts “on the ground,” I wasn’t talking about protests, but point taken.

  87. 87
    scav says:

    Of course, they justify taking the child away from the parent because they’re illegal immigrants and there are laws ya know, and then justify not reuniting them (when ordered by a judge) because well, hey, the dog ate the paperwork they’re citizens in any case. By now, such a stance coming from evangelical conservative white americans is so banal that it feels utterly worthless to repeat it (it’s utterly normal for 35 year olds to date 13-year-olds! The coach and cohorts was only sexually coming onto adult wrestlers, so what’s the fuss about?!). Ambulatory carrion in a just world, which we’re clearly not.

  88. 88
    NotMax says:

    @Goku (aka Amerikan Baka)

    There you go again.

    :(

  89. 89
    Spanky says:

    @TenguPhule:

    HHS is down to 38 of 106.

    Why should I have any confidence it’s 106 rather than 1000?

  90. 90
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NotMax:
    More like at my wits’ ends trying to reach these people and failing. I’m grasping at straws and I know it.

  91. 91
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    how do you picture a small group of militia controlling all 4,751 square miles of Los Angeles County?

    I don’t believe they’re interested in control at this point. They just want to burn everything down.

  92. 92
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Asylum seekers are not here illegally. This needs to be repeated loudly and often.

  93. 93
    TenguPhule says:

    @NotMax:

    However shall he occupy his time before Fox & Friends airs at noontime in Europe?

    Tweeting about Harley Davidson.

  94. 94
    TenguPhule says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    This needs to be repeated loudly and often.

    I’m sure the media will get right on that. //

  95. 95
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Yeah, but there’s more of us than there are of them.

  96. 96
    TenguPhule says:

    @Spanky:

    Why should I have any confidence it’s 106 rather than 1000?

    You shouldn’t. The lack of records is beyond infuriating.

  97. 97
    TenguPhule says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    Yeah, but there’s more of us than there are of them.

    Out of control wildfires are a great force equalizer. //

  98. 98
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    Thank You !
    This just infuriates me

  99. 99
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Patricia Kayden: That’s what I was scrolling to the bottom to say in case no one else had. Trump STILL NOW has no motherfucking idea what asylum is, and I’m pretty sure he still now has no motherfucking ideas that there are countries between Mexico and the Panama Canal. He thinks the kids are Mexicans lying to put one over on “us.” Like how Republicans don’t really think there’s such a thing as trans people, just perverts lying to put one over on “us.” He’s so ignorant about all things and so smug about how it’s never impeded his life of gold and pu$$y. It will be so fantastic when there is not one molecule of him left in the universe.

  100. 100
    rikyrah says:

    SEEKING ASYLUM IS NOT ILLEGAL!!

    FFS!!

    The United States WROTE THE INTERNATIONAL RULES ON HOW TO SEEK ASYLUM

  101. 101
    TenguPhule says:

    @rikyrah:

    SEEKING ASYLUM IS NOT ILLEGAL!!

    And how many divisions do the Democrats in Congress command? //

  102. 102
    cynthia ackerman says:

    @Corner Stone:

    How about just detaining his kids indefinitely.

  103. 103
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    It’s called State Sponsored Terrorism. Trump, Sessions, Nielsen and the rest of those criminals are responsible for these atrocities.

    Bring them to justice. Now.

  104. 104
    rikyrah says:

    They BLOCK the legal points of entry where people would come and formally request ASYLUM.

    Then, when they tried to get in other ways, ARREST THEM AND TAKE AWAY THEIR CHILDREN.

  105. 105
    waratah says:

    Trump and the Republicans are just making a mockery of our government from whitehouse Congress and Justice .

  106. 106
    The Moar You Know says:

    And I would ask the same question I’ve asked TP in the past — how do you picture a small group of militia controlling all 4,751 square miles of Los Angeles County?

    @Mnemosyne: You could easily do it with a couple of hundred people, given two things which don’t exist: a disarmed populace and a militia that is doing what the majority of the folks in that area want done anyway.

    The tyranny that the 2nd Amendment apologists/fetishists are always gassing on about is here, and to no one’s surprise, it’s working for them, not us. Draw your own conclusions.

  107. 107
    rikyrah says:

    I will say it again:

    This wasn’t incompetence. This was MALICE.
    Your local cleaners has a better way of keeping track of your laundry than the federal government did with these children.
    They LOST paperwork?
    They DESTROYED paperwork?
    The reason that you know it was complete malice was the revelation a week or so ago that they had done a PILOT PROGRAM of ripping children from their parents.

    They did a PILOT PROGRAM, and in no step along in the process, they had put in place a detailed REUNIFICATION PROCESS.

    Let me make it clear for the bleacher seats.

    THEY.HAD.NO.INTENTION.OF.REUNITING.THESE.PARENTS.WITH.THESE.CHILDREN.

    When you can’t present the judge with a detailed outline of how you will reunite the parents…

    YOU NEVER HAD A PLAN.
    One only doesn’t have a plan..

    IF THEY NEVER INTENDED TO REUNITE THESE CHILDREN WITH THEIR PARENTS.

  108. 108
  109. 109
    TenguPhule says:

    @rikyrah: Speaking to the choir here. And I expect it to get worse after the July deadline passes and those kids are not reunited.

  110. 110
    Calouste says:

    @TenguPhule: They’re like domestic abusers heading to a murder-suicide. If they can’t have all the power over America, no one is going to have it.

  111. 111
    Mnemosyne says:

    @rikyrah:

    Kelly and his buddies have said up-front what the plan was, multiple times: to punish attempted asylum seekers by stealing their kids, which would deter other people from seeking asylum.

    Taking the refugees’ kids away from them forever WAS THE ACTUAL PLAN.

    That’s why there was no provision for reuniting families. Taking the kids away was the punishment for seeking asylum.

  112. 112
    TenguPhule says:

    And now Costco has announced they will no longer sell Polish Dogs at the food court.

    WHY ARE YOU DOING THIS TO US, FSM?! HOW HAVE WE DISPLEASED YOUR NOODLEY APPENDAGES?!!!

  113. 113
    Yutsano says:

    @Mnemosyne: A lot of these people believe the military and the police are on their side. While some would certainly join up because their sympathies already run to these beliefs, they will be sorely disappointed when in fact the majority end up respecting their oaths and defend the people against their nuttiness. I’m honestly in the just try it mofos camp.

  114. 114
    rikyrah says:

    @ruemara:

    I hate these people. I hate this country. I hate all the people who said this was hyperbole & that they won’t be conned into the lesser of two evils. I hate everyone who supports this regime. I hate Russia. I hate the inactivity of Americans who sit here like if they fret & share memes, that’s doing something. I hate their comfort. If hate were a fuel, I could run a planet. I do not hate my hate, because they’ve earned it.

    EVERYTHING.YOU.JUST.WROTE!!

    EVERY.DAMN.THING.

  115. 115
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yutsano:

    they will be sorely disappointed when in fact the majority end up respecting their oaths and defend the people against their nuttiness.

    I’m sorry, I’ve seen too many white gunhumpers unmolested and too many unarmed dead black boys and men because “we were afraid for our lives” to make that assumption.

  116. 116
    Mnemosyne says:

    @ruemara:

    I don’t hate this county because I still think that the people who actively sought this are a minority trying to control a majority that hates them, and that’s way harder than I thought.

    I do think that most of your RL white friends are selfish dicks, but you already knew that. 😘

  117. 117
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Argh. I hate not having an edit button:

    *country, not county

    harder than *they thought, not I thought

    Also, I hate the new mobile pop-up ad, but at least it allows me to banish it immediately. I just wish it didn’t show up EVERY FUCKING TIME I REFRESH THE PAGE!

  118. 118
    EBT says:

    Simply put, every single person in Central and South America deserve to be here for the 125 years of us fucking them over with invasions and coups.

  119. 119
    japa21 says:

    @TenguPhule: The local one here dropped polish sausages a couple years ago and replaced them with bratwursts. Now they have dropped those and replaced them with chili. In fact, they recently dropped the chili and replaced that with some health food salad.

    Still love Costco, however.

  120. 120
    germy says:

    See poll below. The better question is: Will the Dems nominate another tired, highly experienced, establishment candidate to run against Trump and expect that it will end in a different result than the first 15 such politicians he beat. #Basta https://t.co/wbzxatuNZO
    — Michael Avenatti (@MichaelAvenatti) July 8, 2018

    And to be clear, I’m not calling Hillary tired. I am referring to many of the others that ran against Trump and the messaging that went with a number of the candidates.
    — Michael Avenatti (@MichaelAvenatti) July 8, 2018

    I voted for Hillary. She would have been up there in the greatest president list.

  121. 121
    jacy says:

    @The Ancient Randonneur:

    That’s what I’ve been telling everybody. This is literally the definition of terrorism. It was a plan to sow terror in a targeted population. And they didn’t have a reunification plan, I don’t think they even had a plan to keep track of the children. The wanted to inflict maximum pain. That was their whole rationale. I have no doubt that they’ve lost some of these kids. Irretrievably lost. I believe some of them are likely dead.

    And I wish journalists would hammer home the fact that they’ve been trying this out for almost a year. A YEAR. They just started small, with a “pilot program.” The people responsible for this should really go to jail. Specifically Miller, Kelly, and Neilsen.

  122. 122
    Brachiator says:

    President Trump on Tuesday pardoned father-and-son cattle ranchers in southeastern Oregon who were sentenced to serve prison time on two separate occasions for the same charges of arson on public lands, a move their supporters hailed as a shift in how the federal government approaches the West.

    Trump’s decision to set aside the convictions of Dwight Hammond Jr. and Steven Hammond could have major implications for how federal officials enforce rules on grazing and other activities on tens of millions of acres owned by taxpayers.

    With this move, Trump has proven once again that he is the president of angry, stupid, resentful white people. Not that he is pandering to them, or considers them a base who must be catered to. No. Trump and these dopes are one. He is their Borg King, and they are the Trump Collective.

    And no, this does not mean that he has sealed the deal on re-election, blah, blah, blah.

    But Trump has thrown down. He is saying that he is for government of angry white people, by angry white people, and for angry white people.

    Conversely, he is establishing new standards, new norms. He hates immigrants and especially immigrant babies. And he has thrown down here has well. There is no pretense that any of his actions are about keeping America safe. The United States is now a Trump property. A private club. And membership is by invitation only.

    Yeah, this shit has to be defeated, and burnt out root and branch. But it will take longer to change the hearts of bigots who have nursed resentments and hatred, and are now free to let all of it hang out. And they know it must be OK, because their president told them so.

  123. 123
    jacy says:

    @Brachiator:

    We need constant pushback. Not just at the ballot box, although that is the most important. But in every day life, every single time — no more live-and-let-live, every person, every time should be shunned, mocked, complained about to their employers, denied service. We take back the norm. We show that if you’re a racist, you better just keep it inside your own head, because if you do ANYTHING to show it, we are going to come down on you like a ton of bricks. EVERY SINGLE TIME.

  124. 124
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    But it will take longer to change the hearts of bigots who have nursed resentments and hatred, and are now free to let all of it hang out.

    A sufficiently sharp scalpel and a good working knowledge of anatomy can take care of that.

  125. 125
    Corner Stone says:

    @germy:

    I voted for Hillary. She would have been up there in the greatest president list.

    IMO, HRC would have been largely stymied on any new initiatives. The best we could have hoped for was a status quo and/or slight improvement of ACA, and Executive Orders that would be upheld by courts. Hillary would have been a good manager, and again IMO, a very good process person. But I seriously doubt she would rock any future historians with her bold achievements, simply because she would not be allowed to have any.

  126. 126
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    “Tell people not to come to our country illegally,” Trump told reporters. “That’s the solution. Don’t come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally.”

    Leave it to Trumpy McTrumpy Face to think he can negotiate with someone in a life or death situation.

  127. 127
    TenguPhule says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Leave it to Trumpy McTrumpy Face to think he can negotiate with someone in a life or death situation.

    The right to be allowed to live is where negotiations start. After all, people can be “mostly dead” and still be fine. Look at Clarence Thomas.

  128. 128
    Steeplejack says:

    @germy:

    Will the Dems nominate another tired, highly experienced, establishment candidate [. . .]?

    This ties in with something someone said above (or maybe in another thread—I’ve been hopping around). Every election the Republicans hork up a wretched, non-charismatic, semi-competent (if that) hack candidate, and nobody in the MSM or pundit class says a word. (And that candidate starts with 40% of the electorate as a floor.) But somehow the Democrats are obligated to find an endless supply of candidates who combine the best qualities of Solomon and George Clooney in order to satisfy the finicky tastes of the pundits and the mythical swing voters.

    ETA: And, by the way, Avenatti, you’re doing God’s work poking Trump with your trident, but please remember that in the last election our “tired, highly experienced, establishment candidate” beat Trump by three million votes but lost the election because of our crazy Electoral College system.

  129. 129
    Rob in CT says:

    @germy:

    Dude thinks he can be President. And hell, after Trump, why the hell not? I mean, I can think of reasons, but demonstrably the electorate doesn’t really give a shit.

  130. 130

    @ruemara:Did you find those tweets about the second civil war funny? I didn’t.

  131. 131
    Corner Stone says:

    Ghouliani and Rosenstein shaking hands and big smiles all around at the SCOTUS announcement. It’s all a big fucking game, just a big sideshow to fool the rubes.

  132. 132
    germy says:

    @Corner Stone: In my crazy fantasy world, she serves alongside a democratic congress and house.

    Crazy, I know.

  133. 133
    germy says:

    A woman seeking asylum alleges in court documents that ICE officers asked her "Don't you know that we hate you people?"https://t.co/uAPsSPT9zs— Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) July 10, 2018

  134. 134
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Now comes news that the craven Croatian Football Federation has issued an apology to the Russian public for the fact that two of its members (including a star player) went on Instagram after defeating Russia and said “Slava Ukraini (Glory to Ukraine,)” a statement as anodyne as “Vive la France.” The star player in question, Domagoj Vida, has played for Ukraine’s Kyiv Dynamo squad, so is not a stranger to the country. Russia, for those keeping score at home, continues its invasion of Ukrainian territory, resulting in the loss of over 10,000 Ukrainian lives in the last four years.

    Fuck the Croatian Football Federation.

  135. 135
    Corner Stone says:

    @germy: You crazy.
    In (ALT)reality, it seems most likely to me that we had a small bump in House and (possibly)Senate seats in 2016 and then get a complete wipeout in the 2018 midterms. Both Congressional and State elections. Chaffetz and Gowdy would be walking around with permanent erections. The balance in the Senate would be 50-50 at best and we’d need to constantly be marshalling Manchin, Heitkamp, Tester and Donnelly.
    On the whole I would take being able to go to sleep at night knowing kids weren’t being locked up in cages, muslims(immigrants) were welcome, equality was still an upheld concept and a dozen other things. In that world, we’d probably know like one of HRC’s Cabinet member’s names because she’d appoint a stinker like an Arne Duncan-type somewhere, but the rest of them we’d be like, “Who? Where do they work, again?”

  136. 136
    ruemara says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: Like all zombies, a head shot suffices.

    @Mnemosyne: I. Said. What. I. Said. And yes, quite a few of them are. “Oligarchs!”, he barked, uselessly unregistered to vote.

    @Brachiator: I follow Amy Siskind and she’s all “Why would he do this? It makes no sense!” I am so tired of people who supposedly get it, not getting it. It says federal agents are worth less than conservative white men. It says that violence against the state is condoned and also violence against POC. It says might makes right, guns over humanity and socialism for white men is no. 1 priority. It’s a HUGE message. I need smart white people to not achieve dumb when clear white supremacy is on display.

  137. 137
    ruemara says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I find nothing funny. I am strangely lacking in humor lately.

  138. 138
    Roger Moore says:

    @ruemara:

    Option 2. these people are only incompetent at doing good. They’re quite competent at evil.

    I’m not sure they’re particularly competent at evil. It’s just that entropy is a sufficiently powerful ally that evil simply doesn’t require the same level of competence for success that good does.

  139. 139
    TenguPhule says:

    @Corner Stone: Actually in that timeline half of the Republican Congress is in jail without bail for kiddy prostitution in a pizza parlor. The other half fled to Russia to escape warrants regarding illegal campaign financing and formed a government in exile under McConnell.

  140. 140
    TenguPhule says:

    @ruemara:

    I find nothing funny. I am strangely lacking in humor lately.

    All we need is clown makeup and the transformation is complete.

  141. 141
    Roger Moore says:

    @TenguPhule:

    The lack of records is beyond infuriating.

    The deliberate destruction of records damn well ought to be illegal.

  142. 142
    Roger Moore says:

    @Yutsano:
    I see this kind of thing as one more reason for police departments to try to become as diverse as the population they’re protecting and serving. They’re a lot less likely to be successfully infiltrated and taken over by white supremacists if they aren’t majority white male.

  143. 143
    ruemara says:

    @Yutsano: You have a lot more positive views of the parami- I mean, law enforcement, community than I do. May it be so.

  144. 144
    Mandalay says:

    Nobody could have predicted...

    Closely watched GOP moderate Sen. Susan Collins speaks favorably of Kavanaugh

    …Sen. Susan Collins, R-Maine, a moderate who supports abortion rights and has said she could not back a nominee who opposed Roe v. Wade, told NBC News she was “glad” about remarks Kavanaugh made more than 10 years ago that the 1973 ruling legalizing abortion was “settled precedent.”…

    “He clearly has very impressive credentials and extensive experience having served for more than a decade on the D.C. Circuit Court. I know that he is held in high regard by many attorneys and judges whom I know.”

    Rand Paul used to be the undisputed king of talking the talk but not walking the walk, but Susan Collins is equally full of bullshit.

  145. 145
    Brachiator says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    “Tell people not to come to our country illegally,” Trump told reporters. “That’s the solution. Don’t come to our country illegally. Come like other people do. Come legally.”

    Leave it to Trumpy McTrumpy Face to think he can negotiate with someone in a life or death situation.

    Trump does not care that some immigrants may be in life or death situation. Soon, he will be issuing shoot to kill orders at the border.

    @Roger Moore:

    I see this kind of thing as one more reason for police departments to try to become as diverse as the population they’re protecting and serving. They’re a lot less likely to be successfully infiltrated and taken over by white supremacists if they aren’t majority white male.

    Cops are expected to protect the brotherhood. It’s always been that way, and you are seeing situations in which nonwhite and non male cops are targeted for retribution. This is tough to overcome.

  146. 146
    MagdaInBlack says:

    @ruemara:
    Ive had more than enough of the ” Why would he do that?” headscratching from the media.
    Simple: Because he is a 5 STAR ASSHOLE.
    PERIOD

  147. 147
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I think if Hillary had become president and had even 50 Democrat senators, it would have literally ushered in a new golden age of liberal jurisprudence. Instead, we are suffering through an attack on modernity itself . I will hate the Bernie Bros and the Stein humpers until I die.

  148. 148
    Mnemosyne says:

    @ruemara:

    I just don’t want you to change your mind about what we were emailing about. Change can happen from the inside.

  149. 149
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @germy: The election was stolen plain and simple. Trump is illegitimate and so are the judges he appoints. No one will do anything. Watch Trump will pull us out of NATO after meeting with his boss. The military won’t even utter a peep.

  150. 150
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Roger Moore:
    The deliberate destruction of public records is, theoretically at least, illegal anywhere. The problem here, as I understand it, is that the destruction is being done by public servants because the records are evidence that they are breaking the law. And there is no one to refute their claim that the records were misplaced/destroyed in some calamity/eaten by the family dog.

  151. 151
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    Soon, he will be issuing shoot to kill orders at the border.

    The order will not be issued in writing. It will be done by tweet.

  152. 152
    The Dangerman says:

    @germy:

    She would have been up there in the greatest president list.

    Hillary would have only kept the chair in the Oval Office warm for at least 2 years, probably 4. Nothing would have passed. Especially a SC Justice.

    Now, to be clear, that would have been preferable to the bullshit we’re all watching.

  153. 153
    Yutsano says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: NATO is a treaty. He can’t just pull out of it on a whim.

    Not that I expect Congress to hold him accountable. But there’s nothing short of removing all forces from Europe that Dolt45 can really do about that.

  154. 154
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @EBT: “Simply put, every single person in Central and South America deserve to be here for the 125 years of us fucking them over with invasions and coups.”

    QFT.

  155. 155
    Roger Moore says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    I think a number of the records at issue weren’t destroyed so much as they were never created. If you take kids away from their parents and then ship them halfway across the country without ever keeping track of what you’ve done, you make it nearly impossible to reconnect them without actually destroying any records.

  156. 156
    tobie says:

    @Corner Stone: Wasn’t Rosenstein a member of the Federalist Society? Maybe that would make him chummy with Kavanaugh.

  157. 157
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy: I’ve enjoyed his performance wrt trump and Stormy, I hope he did some people some good at the border, I don’t have the training to judge his legal work (curious what any lawyers here may think) but if that’s an example of Avenatti as a pundit, much less as a politician, he’s in his sixteenth minute

  158. 158
    stinger says:

    @Corner Stone:

    HRC would have been largely stymied on any new initiatives.

    This assumes that Congress — without Russian interference, without James Comey’s insufferable self-righteousness — would have had the same makeup as it does now with those two factors.

  159. 159
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Roger Moore: “I see this kind of thing as one more reason for police departments to try to become as diverse as the population they’re protecting and serving. They’re a lot less likely to be successfully infiltrated and taken over by white supremacists if they aren’t majority white male.”

    But what’s their incentive for diversifying? They seem to enjoy being racist dicks.

  160. 160
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @stinger: I have a gut hunch– wild, uninformed speculation with no statistical or even anecdotal evidence to back it up– that Feingold (WI) and McGinty (PA) lost very close races cause tote-bagger types thought that HRC was gonna win and a GOP Senate would “keep her honest”

  161. 161
    Amir Khalid says:

    @The Dangerman:

    Hillary would have only kept the chair in the Oval Office warm for at least 2 years,

    A foreshortened presidential term? How so?

  162. 162
    Brachiator says:

    @ruemara:

    It says federal agents are worth less than conservative white men. It says that violence against the state is condoned

    Some of this is a consequence of Trump demonizing the FBI and the intelligence agencies, in the nonsense about the deep state and in his trying to base federal service on loyalty to Trump alone. He is also feeding on old lies about how the federal government is not legitimate (Southern and rural Western whites eat this shit up).

    and also violence against POC.

    And also white people calling the police to detain and harass people of color. Sometimes, it seems like we might be a short step away from South African apartheid and pass laws designed to restrict the movement of nonwhite people.

    It says might makes right, guns over humanity and socialism for white men is no. 1 priority. It’s a HUGE message.

    And of course,white women can have a piece of the pie as long as they make themselves subservient to white men. The shit is getting thick. Fortunately there are people who are not having it.

  163. 163
    Calouste says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: I think the military is going to be rather concerned about losing their bases in Europe, and the cutbacks that’s going to cause. There’s really not that much to do for the US military inside the US.

  164. 164
    Corner Stone says:

    @stinger: I posit in #135 that the D’s might have seen a very small bump in both houses of Congress. We were never going to slam big wins through, Comey or no Comey. IMO, I do believe we lost both WI and PA Senate seats due to voter suppression as well as Comey’s influence/interference.
    Even then, not enough to ram through any big changes. The House was still going to be majority R no matter what happened. HRC would have been a holding action presidency, a rear guard to maintain progressive gains long enough to hopefully get people used to them where they wanted them to stay. I think gay people would be less icky to the majority, muslims would be less scary, and all attacks against Planned Parenthood et al would be stuffed at their…ahh…conception.

  165. 165
    ruemara says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes. Note the conservative traitors.

  166. 166
    James E Powell says:

    @germy:

    We either turn our folks out this November, or we are even more screwed.
    It’s as simple as that.

    That’s been our situation since November 8 2016. It’s not like nothing else matters, but then again it is.

  167. 167
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Amir Khalid: Impeachment, I suppose. For whatever the republicans wanted after the standard anti-presidential primaries, kicked into overdrive by whatever pseudo-scandals republicans could dig up over the previous two years.

  168. 168
    rikyrah says:

    @Brachiator:
    Please stop saying South African Apartheid.
    We already had that.
    It was called Jim Crow.
    Both my parents grew up in the Police States known as the Jim Crow South.

  169. 169
    Ridnik Chrome says:

    Zero tolerance for the people who don’t count, infinite tolerance for the ones that do. That’s always been the agenda.

  170. 170
    J R in WV says:

    @Leto:

    Also, because they lie about every single thing, I don’t believe them about the 14.

    And who believes that there are only a few more than 100 kids under 5 in custody after seeking refugee / asylum status?? I’m thinking far more than 100, closer to a thousand. We’ve seen pictures of 100, is that the determining factor? Pictures or we don’t have them in custody?

    Monsters engaging in government-sponsored child abuse!~!~~

    Will be attending my first demonstration since boot camp soon, going to buy signage materials tomorrow.


    Stop Trump’s
    Child Abuse
    Now!!

    What do you think? Is that a good one??

  171. 171
    J R in WV says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    @gene108:

    Otherwise, I doubt there is anything that can change people in the short term.

    As dark as this sounds, would beating them up work?

    Third time’s the charm!!?!

  172. 172
    Mandalay says:

    @Yutsano:

    He can’t just pull out of it on a whim.

    No, not on a whim, but it’s surprisingly easy for any nation to walk away. Article 13 of the North Atlantic Treaty:

    Article 13
    After the Treaty has been in force for twenty years, any Party may cease to be a Party one year after its notice of denunciation has been given to the Government of the United States of America, which will inform the Governments of the other Parties of the deposit of each notice of denunciation.

    The only tricky part for Trump might be whether approval from Congress is required to leave NATO, but I’d have little hope of Republicans standing up to him.

    And while it’s only a year to leave completely, as a practical matter once a nation has expressed its intention to leave I suspect things would go downhill pretty fast. The remaining members might well want the departing nation to leave ASAP (rather like some in the EU feel about the UK stinking up the place by dragging its heels).

  173. 173
    Brachiator says:

    @rikyrah:

    Please stop saying South African Apartheid.

    I make a distinction between American Apartheid and South African Apartheid.

    Trump would love something as comprehensive as the South African model. And this new shit of white people calling the police on black people and other nonwhites over trivial bullshit is much more like South Africa than the old American version.

  174. 174
    bluefoot says:

    @ruemara: The problem is that many smart white people don’t want to admit to themselves that it’s white supremacy and that they’re complicit (intentionally or no) in it. I also think nearly all Americans (all Americans, not just white people) are unwilling to look this in the eye and see what the long-term consequences might be. Because it’s horrifying and we’ve been conditioned to think we’re powerless against TPTB and that kind of horror. The media is all about propagating learned helplessness. (Another reason why I admire all you jackals and everyone out there trying to make a difference – you can see the horror and you’re not going to f*cking take it.)

  175. 175
    Jake the antisoshul soshulist says:

    @Hildebrand:
    They absolutely do believe
    it is the other person’s fault
    Now, when something bad happens
    to them, it is the other person’s fault. They are consistent.

    Not my problem and its sucks to be you are not a moral philosophy O can support.

  176. 176
    J R in WV says:

    @jacy:
    long dead thread, still want to express my point:

    The people responsible for this should really go to jail. Specifically Miller, Kelly, and Neilsen.

    Starting with Miller, Kelly and Reichsfuhrer Neilsen, and running all the way down to the individuals who picked up a child and walked away from that child’s parent, and everyone in between.

    Jailed for participating in state-sponsored terrorism, kidnapping, child abuse.

    Forever!

    And in Real America, there would be a team of prosecutors digging into this plan, seeing where what records were made are kept, who destroyed any records however lame they were, who made decisions and created policy, and who executed those decisions and carried out that policy.

    And arresting all those bastards either mid afternoon at their workplaces OR at 3 am by breaking down their home’s doors with a SWAT team. With TV crews.

  177. 177
    J R in WV says:

    @Roger Moore:

    The deliberate destruction of records damn well ought to be illegal.

    It is illegal. There are laws requiring the protection and preservation of all federal records, and requiring them to be available to the public via FOIA requests.

    I spent much of my time providing data to reporters, scientists and environmentalists when I ran IT for my agency. I had huge reports I provided to one reporter monthly. I believe the federal FOIA requirements are much like the state requirements here. We have (or had, there’s a republican billionaire in the governor’s house now) a good FOIA policy here.

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