Ignore the Sideshow, Focus on the Main Event: Where are the Toddlers? Where are the Girls?

As BettyC posted, it is being reported that the President blinked and is going to use an Executive Order to back down and end the family separation policy that he and Attorney General Sessions implemented on the advice of Stephen Miller. The New York Times has the details (emphasis mine):

President Trump is preparing to issue an executive order as soon as Wednesday that ends the separation of families at the border by indefinitely detaining parents and children together, according to a person familiar with the White House plans.

Mr. Trump’s executive order would seek to get around an existing 1997 consent decree, known as the Flores settlement, that prohibits the federal government from keeping children in immigration detention — even if they are with their parents — for more than 20 days.

“We’re going to be signing an executive order in a little while,” Mr. Trump said Wednesday. “We’ve got to be keeping families together.”

The order would keep families together, though it is unclear how Mr. Trump intends to claim the legal authority to violate what have been legal constraints on the proper treatment of children in government custody, which prevented former President Barack Obama from detaining families together during a similar flood of illegal immigration two years ago.

And the president could quickly find himself the subject of another legal challenge to his executive authority, much the way he attacked Mr. Obama for abusing the power of his office with an immigration executive order in 2014.

While Mr. Trump’s actions appear to stop short of calls for an end to the “zero tolerance” policy, it would be a remarkable retreat for a president who has steadfastly refused to apologize in almost any other context. And it would be a testament to the political power of the images of the immigrant children to move public opinion.

People close to the president said he remains convinced that his immigration policies are appropriate and necessary. But Mr. Trump is said to be increasingly frustrated by the criticism he is getting, and aware that he is boxed in by the legal argument his administration has made.

Aides said that Mr. Trump is aware that his actions could once again be tied up in lengthy court battles. But the president and his allies believe that taking action would put pressure on Democrats by eliminating the criticism that Mr. Trump is separating children from their parents.

The lawyer who tweets as NYCSouthpaw is all over the shenanigans here:

Josh Marshall’s analysis is spot on:

The actual aim seems to be to pick a fight with the courts and allow separations to continue while blaming judges. According to The New York Times, the President will sign an executive order allowing children to be detained indefinitely with their parents. The problem is that that violates a 1997 consent decree saying that you can’t detain/imprison children for more than 20 days (technically what’s currently happening isn’t detention). It straight up violates that order. So what will almost inevitably happen is that a court will step in, say you can’t do that and then Trump will announce that the judge is forcing him to keep separating families.

The President telegraphed this during his remarks to the National Federation of Independent Business when he went on a rant about judges, especially immigration judges, how they were chosen, and that it was all a scam.

As far as appearances are concerned it looks like the President blinked. It looks like he’s deescalating and backing down in the face of all the negative imagery and the negative public response and push back. Keep the Trump Doctrine – “I will be treated fairly or else…” in mind. The President, as The New York Times reported, believes that his policies are “appropriate and necessary”. That all he’s doing is trying put America First and Make it Great Again! He will interpret the negative responses that he’s received as not being treated fairly. He is incapable of accepting defeat, especially a very public one that makes him look weak. An “or else” is coming. And it will likely be ugly and brutal!

But beyond the need to even the scales, DHS and HHS and the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR) still cannot account for all the toddlers and haven’t even tried to account for the girls. They don’t even have that information!!!

DHS, HHS, and ORR has no idea who a lot of these kids are, especially the younger and youngest (pre-verbal) ones. The younger ones may not know how to spell their names yet, if one parent has a different last name from the other, they may not know that either. And the pre-verbal ones can’t even answer these questions. And all of them have been traumatized unlike anything most of us can imagine, even with ProPublica’s publishing of the audio on Monday, which is going to make it even harder for them to identify themselves. I’m pretty sure DHS, HHS, and ORR actually don’t have much of an idea where they all are. And a significant amount of parents have been given no guidance on how to get their children back.

A skirmish has been won. A specific objective – rescinding the policies that separate families – has been partially achieved. This is positive. But these children are still at risk and in danger. The current administration, understaffed on purpose and by design in order to fail under a crisis, has no capability to actually resolve the crisis they’ve created. It is appropriate to take a bit of time today, catch your breath, relax and rest up, so that the pressure can be maintained and increased starting tomorrow. We need to keep asking where are the toddlers and where are the girls. And demanding answers to those two questions. We need to keep asking how the reunifications are going to happen because there is no plan in place to do this and it is clear they have don’t have even a partial clue as to how to make these reunifications happen.

We need to keep pushing for an end to not just the zero tolerance policy, but also a change to the policy within CBP to prevent anyone from entering at an official point of entry so they can claim asylum.

Get some rest, you all did good. But this battle is far from over. The President, the Republican Party, movement conservatism all need to be made to own this. If the GOP majority on the House Oversight Committee can, with straight faces, hold hearings on June 19, 2018 about Secretary Clinton’s emails to continue to run interference for the President and their own failures as a governing majority; the President, the GOP, and the movement conservatism and the white conservative Christians that enable and support them can all be made to own this and have it shoved in their faces every day until the end of time!

Updated at 4:15 PM EDT

Here’s the meat of the EO the President just signed:

#Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls? #Republican concentration camps for kids!!!!!

Stay angry! Stay ready!

Open thread!

172 replies
  1. 1
    ruemara says:

    I’m always angry.

  2. 2
    MisterForkbeard says:


    #Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls? #Republican concentration camps for kids!!!!!

    Other than that – right on. Trump has ‘backed down’ in a way that isn’t actually backing down, and he’s escalating in other, less public ways. The nation can’t forget that he did this, and is trying to make it even worse every way he can FOR NO REASON. He’s just a cruel asshole trying to distract his racist asshole base.

  3. 3
    Death Panel Truck says:

    Will someone please show this person how to tuck long posts below the fold, like the other front pagers do?

  4. 4
    LAO says:

    oh good this has been upgraded to the level of Japanese internment https://t.co/LouYPfcPgW— Sam Thielman (@samthielman) June 20, 2018

  5. 5
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @MisterForkbeard: Already fixed. LAO pinged me.

  6. 6
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Death Panel Truck: You are free not to read them if they offend your sense of aesthetics.

  7. 7
    jl says:

    Thanks for very timely report.
    Looks like Trump folds in the face of determined opposition he can’t counter with his usual PR BS, or when he has to put in even the slightest effort. The Congressional GOP was ready and eager to help him run a vile con on the country but passing BS unneeded legislation full of stuff just as bad as this to end Trump’s self made crisis. But Trump couldn’t even handle that, and spent an hour on a loony angry rant about high taxes, and random BS and ended by insulting some of the Congresspeople there.

    Trump folds, but he can’t admit it. I heard a clip of him today and it was a bizarre rant about STRENGTH and weakness, and how weakness will result in the country being over run by evil brown people. What a toxic ass this guy is.

    But, looks like Trump will fold immediately if faced by any determined opposition.

    Edit: But the possibility they totally messed up handling the toddlers is horrifying. That cannot be undone.

  8. 8
    The Moar You Know says:

    But the president and his allies believe that taking action would put pressure on Democrats by eliminating the criticism that Mr. Trump is separating children from their parents.

    I find this a baffling bit of reasoning, even given who we’re talking about here. Dems don’t have to do a fucking thing. The Republicans are in charge of everything. Let them fix this.

  9. 9
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: What’s the over under that the Roberts’ court would actually uphold a challenge using Korematsu as precedence with Alito writing the opinion signed by Roberts and Kennedy with both Gorsuch and Thomas writing their own even more egregious concurrences. The former just being largely smug, smarmy, and wrong. The last one arguing that there is no enumerated, explicit, or implicit right to movement anywhere in the Constitution.

  10. 10
    NotMax says:

    “Just give’ em any kid. They all look the same to me anyway. After all, if you’ve seen Juan, you’ve seen them all.”

  11. 11
    Waratah says:

    Thank you Adam I think that answering the inquiries about the girls toddlers and babies was what caused this change. They know they have a mess with this that is hard to dress up. I bet no one wants to answer this. I hope the pressure is kept up and destroys them.
    I am really worried for these children.

  12. 12
    LAO says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m genuinely afraid that we are exactly find out the answer to your hypothetical.

  13. 13
    Mnemosyne says:

    He will interpret the negative responses that he’s received as not being treated fairly. He is incapable of accepting defeat, especially a very public one that makes him look weak. An “or else” is coming. And it will likely be ugly and brutal!

    This. It’s the toxic narcissist’s automatic response to being shamed or thwarted.

    He will double down on his anti-immigrant policies, and it will be brutal and ugly because he has a compulsive need to prove to the people who try to control him that they are not the boss of him.

  14. 14
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: If the reactionaries on the court go anywhere near that, I think articles of impeachment would be salutary measure. Along with strong election results, might sway them a little.

    At this rate, one of them could write an opinion based on 1 + 1 = -5, there would be pundits blabbering that is OK, It’s the law now.

  15. 15
    rikyrah says:

    #Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls?

  16. 16
    NotMax says:

    Turns out Lewis Carroll embellished a lot.

    On the other side of the looking glass is a sewer.

  17. 17
    Josie says:

    @Death Panel Truck: It’s good to see that you know what is important here. Not!

  18. 18
    efgoldman says:

    Totally off topic, but I know some of the jackalhood was interested:
    Mrs efg, her mother and her sister had a conference call today with the Vermont state’s attorney about murdering bastard.
    Short version: state charges temporarily dropped, he agrees to serve eight years federal time for the gun charges (real prison – I’m thinking Lewisburg or Danbury, not Club Fed – under extremely strict probationary terms during and after. One slip and he’s back in the sneezer for life. (Likely will die there anyway)
    AFTER the Fed sentence, Vermont reserves the right to refile Murder2.
    Not as punitive as we would like, but resolution. The bullshit is over.

  19. 19
    Mnemosyne says:


    Ever seen Changeling (2008) with Angelina Jolie?

    It will be that times 10,000.

  20. 20
    ruemara says:

    @LAO: So very angry. You know, I know internees. They voted Trump because BLM for one friend’s family (the “rioting” & “why can’t they just follow the law”) & the other friend’s parents are religious nutbars – mom especially. American internment camp victims, who voted for Trump.

    Edited to reflect – FUCK THAT FUCKING HONDA AD! You can’t stop it and you can’t mute it.

    @efgoldman: I’m glad for her & her family. I know it won’t bring anyone back, but I hope it starts a healing process.

  21. 21
    scav says:

    I look foreward to and hope for a time when there will be a metric shitload of people with odd gaps in their employment history. People will start drinking their lemonade, soda and sweet tea lukewarm because ICE is such a dirty word.

  22. 22
    Librarian says:

    Also, they’re going to try to repeal the ACA again soon. Evil never sleeps.

  23. 23
    trollhattan says:

    My congresswoman, born in an internment camp, would like a word.

  24. 24
  25. 25

    Concentration Camp T publicans.

  26. 26
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Always happy to see my obsessive levels of spelling correction aren’t needed. :)

    @LAO: I think this is basically how I’m going to frame it when I talk about it. It’s illegal and will get struck down soon, but Trump’s fix is to make it just slightly worse than the internment camps. Now you can be in jail… WITH your kids! Instead of a camp.

  27. 27
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: You all doing okay with it?

  28. 28
    trollhattan says:

    Correct. LIkewise they will continue assaulting Social Security and Medicare, spiting their very voter base and for which their base will instantly forgive them.

    #46 will have a bigger cleanup job than Obama did. I think they’re counting on it because that way they can call all of Trump’s disasters “A Democrat problem.”

  29. 29
    🌷 Martin says:

    Anyone who works in government is going to be extremely pessimistic about this. This shit is seriously hard to do right, and even with years of planning is almost certainly going to be off a bit.

    I work with a generally well documented population. One that typically has a good identity trail. Understand that ‘identity’ is a much more ephemeral thing than people realize. Virtually every form of identity is merely a proxy for some prior form of identity. At the end of the day, your identity is almost entirely dependent on a single form filled out in the hospital where you were born, from which every other form of identity is derived. We might validate that somewhat via DNA tests against other people and their identity chain, but that’s it. And even in a setting where have great documentation and are dealing with a population of 10s of thousands of people, you have mix-ups of people with identical names, ambiguity in a person’s status, and the like. 3 times per year we take a definitive snapshot of the population and the first pass is about 99.9% correct, and the last 0.1% takes days and hundreds of man-hours to correct. And that’s in a system where employees are personally motivated to get this right, the population being counted is personally motivated to get this right, and everyone speaks the same language and is old and capable enough to speak on their own behalf. And what happens if our census misses somebody? Well, there’s a temporary financial inconvenience until the person points it out and we fix it. Nobody dies. Nobody vanishes down a human trafficking hole. Nobody has long term psychological problems.

    With 100% certainty, at least one child has already died as a result of DHSs inability to properly account for everyone. They’ll blame language, lack of identity documentation, and so on. But this is a situation where all of the incentives are aligned against success. You have employees that are highly motivated to cover up any problem. You have people being counted that cannot speak for themselves, and are in many cases motivated to not cooperate. Refugees are an administrative worst case scenario because by definition of the population, every thing that usually works in favor of success is lacking. And in this case, if you had an employee population that was highly motivated to get this right, you might stand a fighting chance, but nobody signs up to work as a border patrol officer with this goal in mind. The job is about keeping people out, not taking care of those that are in. Toss on top the politicization and inevitable ass-covering when this thing goes tits-up and I’m predicting at least hundreds of children will simply vanish, and more than that will never be reunited with parents because the government fucked up so badly and is unwilling to release a child to their rightful parents because some form doesn’t line up with some other form.

    From the viewpoint of a high-level administrator, you never, ever, ever agree to do a system like this because the likelihood of failure is so high, and the consequence of that failure is of such magnitude, that you just never go near it. From an administrative standpoint, by keeping children and parents together, you solve so much of the accounting problem because child and parent are mutually and actively invested in ensuring the accounting is right. If your worry is human trafficking, that too will be revealed in that interaction provided you keep them together. Hell, you can do a cheap and easy DNA test to help verify that the adult’s story checks out. Once you separate, there’s no fucking way you can tell who was and was not trafficked, and because of that, if trafficking is your real concern, there’s no way you can ever reunite the child with the parent, because any mechanism that you might have had to ensure that relationship is valid was lost in the separation process.

    If someone had come to me with this idea, with me being responsible for implementation, I would advise them to toss out any pretext that there would be a reunification process, and make clear from the outset that this is an orphanage project where reunification is a desirable exception rather than a realistic expectation and construct around that and see if the concept and motivation to pursue it still holds. If nobody did that then they are utterly incompetent and should be fired and go to jail. If they did that, and the policy was pursued anyway, than everyone in the chain should be fired and go to jail.

  30. 30
    trollhattan says:

    Happy is the wrong word but I’m very relieved for you. Your daughter gets some justice and you rid all of us of this monster. Know peace.

  31. 31
    Mnemosyne says:


    I am very glad that Mrs efg and her mother will be spared the stress of a trial. That would have been the last thing they needed right now. Hopefully the asshole will die in prison so you don’t have to worry about what happens if he gets out.

  32. 32
    lamh36 says:

    Adam…did you see PBO posted a statement about an hour ago?


    Immigrant children forcibly injected with drugs, lawsuit claims https://www.revealnews.org/blog/immigrant-children-forcibly-injected-with-drugs-lawsuit-claims/ via @reveal

  33. 33
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    You all doing okay with it?

    Yeah, thanks. Two and a half years later it was time for resolution. Given his age and health (an asthmatic smoker!) and his big mouth that’s already gotten him in trouble in county lockup, we don’t expect him to come out. The actual numbers don’t matter.

  34. 34
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @efgoldman: Condolences, but there’s no chance of a hung jury or even an acquittal in this case. He will get at least 8 years and the abusive bastard will inevitably lose control, lash out, and he’ll be in for keeps, not to mention the Murder 2 charge that hangs over his head as well.

  35. 35
    rikyrah says:


    Glad that your family got some resolution. You know where he’ll be for the next 8 years. I guess that’s something.

  36. 36
    🌷 Martin says:

    Help. I edited comment #29 and it got flagged as spam. Please retrieve it – it’s not a throwaway comment.

  37. 37
    LAO says:

    @efgoldman: As long as you and your loved ones are ok with the resolution, then I’m glad for you all.

  38. 38
    cckids says:


    But the possibility they totally messed up handling the toddlers is horrifying.

    It’s not a possibility, it is a fact. This damage has already been done to these kids, most particularly to the babies and toddlers. If, IF they are quickly reunited with their parents it might, again, MIGHT be mitigated. It cannot be undone.

    Reading the account of the ER doc regarding how traumatized the babies she’s seen are was horrifying. I’m in constant rage and despair about this; it hits me on a very personal level, (as I’ve shared here before) and I can’t get past it at all.

    There are so many stories out now about people volunteering to foster these kids, and while they are well-meaning, it isn’t the answer!! They need their OWN parents, NOW. And I seen no chance that that will happen. Monsters; sick depraved worthless animals are running this country.

  39. 39
    efgoldman says:

    Thanks to jackals all.
    That’s why I love you
    [Oops I never said any such thing. Harrumph].

  40. 40
    cckids says:


    Now you can be in jail… WITH your kids! Instead of a camp.

    While of course, none of this should be happening, being in jail with their parents is incalculably better than being separated and jailed/fostered without them. Kids can deal better with all kinds of issues when they are with a parent who loves them. That person is their world.

  41. 41
    MomSense says:


    I hope somehow this helps make space for some measure of healing for you, your wife, and family.

  42. 42
    🌷 Martin says:

    @efgoldman: I hope this doesn’t get misinterpreted, but the reality is that situations like this can never be made right. There is no resolution that will feel sufficient. The best you can hope for is something that you can tolerate and allow everyone to move forward in some way. It’s hard to embrace that outcome as a victory, but it actually is.

    Hope all involved can look ahead and find peace.

  43. 43
    cckids says:


    Evil never sleeps.

    Yeah, well, their level of evil has ensured that I mostly don’t sleep anymore, either. Makes me entirely bitchy, and gives me more time for angry phone calls and letters. Lose/lose, I guess, but I’ll take it over letting those asshats win.

    They needed to take lessons from St. Ronnie & keep their worst side on the down-low, it takes longer for people to notice. But no, DT brought out the inner Nazi in the Repubs, and they are proudly flying that flag, which rallies our troops. Evil and stupid is how they go through life.

  44. 44
    zhena gogolia says:


    I’m the close relative of a murder victim too, and I know this is the “gift” that keeps on giving. I’m glad you have some resolution.

  45. 45
    zhena gogolia says:


    I liked that essay somebody posted yesterday that started, “I thought I hated GWB . . .” Here I am, I thought I hated St. Ronnie, I thought I hated GWB, but now I realize that was just mild dislike compared to what I’m feeling now!

  46. 46
    GregB says:


    May this help to bring some semblance of an end to this horrible chapter in your lives.

  47. 47
    trollhattan says:

    Now I’m smiling. :-)

  48. 48
    efgoldman says:

    @🌷 Martin:

    There is no resolution that will feel sufficient.

    Sure, but it is the necessary third and last step of closure. First was the initial mourning and memorial service, second was the creation and dedication of a small park and concrete and stone bench in her name across the street from the general store where she worked, and finally the resolution of the legal case against murdering bastard.

  49. 49
    Peale says:

    @LAO: Yep. We see the Japanese internment as fundamentally wrong. That’s not how the right has ever viewed it. That’s why whenever there’s any kind of crisis, they want to lock everyone up. From anyone who ever did anything with Ebola, to Gays who may or may not have HIV but you can never be too careful, to anyone muslim after 911, to the gang members – both real and imagined, to the unaccompanied kids from 2014. The Japanese internment was not a failure, you see. We were at war then and when Laura Ingraham echos Pat Buchanan in calling immigration an invasion, they mean to say we are at war now.

  50. 50
    rikyrah says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    That was me.
    It was from The People’s View blog.

  51. 51
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @efgoldman: I’m glad this outcome represents some form of closure for you and the family.

  52. 52
    Yarrow says:

    @efgoldman: Glad to see you’re all getting a resolution to the whole horrible saga. May Mrs. efg, her mother and sister be able to let down a bit now.

  53. 53
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    One question that springs to mind is, “How do they know which child belongs to which family?” It makes me physically ill and nauseated having to write that sentence.

    The kids are too young, the parents are locked up elsewhere, what did the administration think was going to happen? Apart from the temporary dissolution of families as a cruel and inhumane “deterrent”, did none of these people think of how this was going to be resolved at the end of the detention period?

    One thing we know for sure is that we should be thankful for the bravery and honor of gentlemen like Mr. Lewandowski, who had the courage and valor to stand up and mock a disabled child for having the temerity to come to this country with her parents (likely) seeking asylum. He is likely guilty of treason for his role in the 2016 election. He was also so strong and mighty as to assault a female reporter. It does not escape me that Mr. Lewandowski, like all true heroes, likes to talk big when the targets are much weaker than he is (literally, women and children!)

    I am an immigrant and a recent citizen. I am brown-skinned (from the same city in India as Srinivas Kuchibhotla), and I am a father to a six-year-old. But even if I were none of these things, this atrocity would be intolerable. These fine people talk about laws, and enforcing laws. Well, was it not legal to enslave an entire race and deny them their basic humanity? It was! So the entire argument about just following the law, and also blindly adhering to the constitutional vision of the founding fathers is not only perverse, but also immoral and invalid.

    Furthermore, as far as laws go, aren’t we supposed to seriously consider asylum seekers? AFAIK, the US is party to those treaties. So the scum in human form who goes by the name of Homan, should perhaps consider that while debasing himself on CNN (https://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/most-bracing-ugliest-moments-of-ice-chief-interview-on-cnn)

  54. 54
    efgoldman says:


    They needed to take lessons from St. Ronnie & keep their worst side on the down-low

    Sanctus Ronaldus would be lucky to win a primary today. He (falsely) presented himself as much too nice

  55. 55
    Leto says:

    @efgoldman: I hope this brings some peace/resolution to you and your family.

  56. 56
    WereBear says:

    @efgoldman: Glad there is some punishment and some peace for the victims.

  57. 57

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: Homan is an Obama admin hold over. Was he always like this? How did he get the job?

  58. 58
    Yarrow says:

    So someone suggested calling these camps Trump Hotels. I’m not totally on board with that but I do know “Hoovervilles” worked as negative branding for Pres. Hoover. Since Trump is in the hotel business, it seems like wrapping his name and the idea of hotels into what these camps are might work. I think called them “hotels” makes them sound far too nice. Needs to be catchy. Anyone have any better names?

  59. 59
    rikyrah says:

    DA PHUQ?

    Members of Congress who visit detention facilities at the border aren’t allowed to talk to migrant children who have been taken from their parents and will be denied entry if they don’t give two weeks’ notice of a planned visit, per a new directive from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

  60. 60
    gratuitous says:

    This analysis is spot-on, and I can’t believe that the popular media haven’t figured out the Trump Doctrine yet. They’ll just follow on, led by the nose, following every predictable twist and turn as Trump destroys something else, all the while pretending that Trump is dealing fairly and with integrity. Anyone who comes back to this post some weeks or months down the line will no doubt be astonished at how prescient it was: How could you have KNOWN?!

    In the meantime, anyone who can see what’s happening (again) and is actually concerned about the issue will be waved aside: Don’t you want to see this problem resolved? And if you get upset about it and say a swear, Frank Bruni will write 800 words about you in the New York Times, scolding you for your naughty language while children continue to be brutalized, physically, psychologically and spiritually. Because not saying swears is more important than a child’s life, that’s why!

  61. 61
    LAO says:

    Just in from the White House pool: "POTUS signed an executive order to end family separations at the border. He sat at the Resolute desk in the Oval Office with VPOTUS on his left and Kirstjen Nielsen on his right."— Dominic Holden (@dominicholden) June 20, 2018

    I can’t wait to see it — not really, I’m sure it will be awful.

  62. 62
    Captain C says:

    An “or else” is coming

    Is there any way we can convince him that us liberals would be very upset if he resigned, liquidated all his assets, gave the proceeds to, say, Doctors Without Borders, and then Did the Honorable Thing?

  63. 63
    zhena gogolia says:


    Good comment.

  64. 64

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: Was SK from Bangalore? I forget.

  65. 65
    LAO says:

    Smart point from a friend: This was “the strongest indication yet of trump’s racism…not just bc you have to be a racist to do it. but bc the racism blinded him to how outraged other people would be. why would people be outraged by what happens to a bunch of brown kids?”— Isaac Chotiner (@IChotiner) June 20, 2018

  66. 66
    LAO says:

    So still concentration camps just family concentration camps now. Still be mad about this and do not let these people off the hook.— Kim Jawn PHL (@FanSince09) June 20, 2018

  67. 67
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @lamh36: I did.

    I saw reporting yesterday that they take the parents into custody under the zero tolerance policy before they process the kids. This has allowed them to list the kids in the system as unaccompanied. This was done to both obscure the total number of separations, as well as to make it impossible for parents to reclaim their kids because they’ve set this up so they can turn to the parents and claim they need proof because the system says their son/s or daughter/s are unaccompanied.

  68. 68
    catclub says:


    Michael Cohen Has Resigned From the RNC
    President Donald Trump’s former personal lawyer resigned from a position on the Republican National Committee, sources said.

    So I wonder if Broidy is still a member of that committee?

  69. 69
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    @zhena gogolia: Thank you. I’ve been reading all of the comments from the jackals here, especially the threads relating to this immigration thing posted by Adam late last night and early this morning. As I’ve said before, as long as there are people in the US like those here on BJ, hope is not lost: we can and should show the world that we are not in congruence with the scum. Goodness wins in the end, but only if one keeps struggling (“Never give up, never surrender”!)
    @schrodingers_cat: No, Kuchibhotla was from Hyderabad. Re: Homan, he is a collaborator (in the Vichy French sense of the word), who has seized this moment to act out his basest fantasies. I don’t understand how people can debate these guys on TV. Just call them Nazis and concentration camp guards and be done with it!

  70. 70

    This EO will imprison families seeking asylum indefinitely. He hasn’t backed down.

  71. 71
    catclub says:

    I would say that Trump has induced yet another crisis by his own action, and this is really the first time he is getting blame for it.
    (The other two are cancelling DACA with no solution, and making a crisis with N Korea.)

  72. 72

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: Debating these people is pointless. I have had similar experiences with Indian Modi Bhakts.

  73. 73
    PPCLI says:

    @catclub: Broidy stepped down right after it “came out” that “he” paid off the playmate Béchard to keep silent about “their” affair. That’s one of the many reasons I’m convinced that he was covering for Trump. Cohen and Wynn weren’t asked by the RNC to step down and they didn’t bother. Broidy on the other hand suddenly wants to get out of the spotlight.

  74. 74
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌷 Martin: I freed it. I have no idea why it went into spam.

  75. 75
    Leto says:

    @Yarrow: Trump Shacks? Trump Shanties? Trump Huts? Trump Lodge? Trump Dumps? Trump Hovels? Trump Slums?

  76. 76
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: The US has always been very stingy in making grants of asylum because the process is not controlled through the regular Federal courts, but through a specialized group of administrative courts – immigration judges – who work for DOJ and are under the control of, and therefore the views of, any given attorney general.

  77. 77
    SFBayAreaGal says:

    I want these monsters to be hounded for the rest of their lives. I want them to be booed, to be spat on, to be shamed until the day they die.

    No quarter given to any of them.

  78. 78
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @schrodingers_cat: No, he worked his way up the career chain and was an SES. Everything I’ve ever seen about him was that he was much more moderate about this stuff, but remade himself to get in line with both the CBP/ICE Union positions and the President’s views in order to be nominated as the actual director. The union folks think he’s a squish, that he’s just faking it because he wants to be the Senate confirmed director. As a result he’s had the White House withdraw his nomination for the ICE directorship and is retiring over the summer.

  79. 79
    Captain C says:

    @Yarrow: I’ve seen “Trump Camps” and “Trump Concentration Camps” bandied about on the intertubes.

  80. 80
    JPL says:

    Why is the president attending a rally, but preventing Congress from having a picnic? I haven’t read the thread yet, so sorry if it has been asked and answered

  81. 81

    @Yarrow: Trump Camp. Or, Camp Trump.

  82. 82
    Eljai says:

    @catclub: Just read this over at the TPM blog under the headline “He’s Flippin'”

    In Michael Cohen’s letter resigning his position as a Deputy Finance Chair at the RNC he also took a moment to call the President’s family separation policy “heart wrenching” and said that “children should never be used as bargaining chips.”

  83. 83

    @Adam L Silverman: So he is not monstrous enough for the T-party.

  84. 84
  85. 85
    Adam L Silverman says:

    I got nothing…

  86. 86
    JPL says:

    @efgoldman: Good news!

  87. 87
    Yarrow says:

    @Leto: I like those! Especially Trump shanties.

    @John Revolta: I like it, but think Camp Trump would bring to mind summer camp with cabins and lakes and fun.

    Edit: Maybe Trump Tenements?

  88. 88
    Adam L Silverman says:


    How could you have KNOWN?!

    I’m a professional. Don’t try this at home.//

    More seriously, thanks for the kind words.

  89. 89
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @catclub: And he apparently put a dig in on the family separation policy in his resignation letter/statement. You don’t burn bridges like that if you haven’t decided to burn all of them. I would put money on his new attorney being in the process of working out a cooperation agreement with the US Attorney’s Office for the Souther District of New York as I type this.

  90. 90
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Is mostly a synonym for only? Asking for a friend.

  91. 91
    Me in Barcelona says:

    All the kids parents’ do have different last names in Spain and its former colonies because everyone has two last names (Spanish forms always ask for “primer apellido” and “segundo apellido”): their father’s first last name followed by their mother’s first last name. And the pool of first and last names and traditional first names (biblical) of Spanish origin is limited. Even if identities are being documented properly, this is going to be a mess that requires DNA testing to sort out.

    If you’re interested, José López Talavera marries María González Murillo, no one changes their name; their son, Felipe, is Felipe López González. There may be millions of people in the world with that exact same combination of first and last names. Where we use a middle name to narrow down the possibilities, Spain and its former colonies use the two last names. I imagine in the U.S. people drop the second last name, so our Felipe is now Felipe López, increasing the number of people with the exact same name even more.

  92. 92
    Calouste says:

    @John Revolta: Trumpwitz. Or Bergen-Nielsen.

  93. 93
    Dev Null says:

    @🌷 Martin: Thanks for taking the time to write this, Martin! It is an excellent backgrounder / ‘splainer.

  94. 94
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Money talks, bullshit walks.

  95. 95
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: There are no guarantees. It could happen (again) here because it could happen (again) anywhere. It will not happen, however, without a fight!

  96. 96
    Adam L Silverman says:

  97. 97
    Ohio Mom says:

    @efgoldman: Glad your family has some resolution, not that there could ever be enough resolution for your sister-in-law’s murder.

    I think it perfectly fine to interrupt threads with news of this level of importance — thanks for the update.

  98. 98
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: American Airlines said that and less than an hour later Michael Avenatti posted this picture of boys being flow to DFW on an AA flight. They can talk all they want but actions speak louder than words. Did the boys board that flight?

    Here is a pic I just took at the McAllen airport of seven young boys of detained parents being transported out of the area by handlers via AA flt 5772 to DFW. Who knows where they are going from there. Sending children 1000 miles away from their parents is a disgrace. #Outraged pic.twitter.com/zrqdIFnsWY— Michael Avenatti (@MichaelAvenatti) June 20, 2018

  99. 99
    JPL says:

    And the power is now out in much of downtown Duluth, where President Trump is hosting a rally tonight.. hmmm


  100. 100
    Dev Null says:

    @Adam L Silverman: hunh. I thought you said – in the wee hours of the morning – more or less the opposite… that not even Federalist Society judges would support Трамп power grabs.

    Did I misunderstand you?

    The possibility you raise here is exactly the sort of creeping Nazification that seems to me all too possible should Dems fail to take the House in the midterms and/or Mueller’s probe be shut down or fail to produce sufficiently shocking dirt.

  101. 101
    Dev Null says:

    @LAO: “The law is what the Supreme Court says it is.”

    Not sure where I heard that. Couldn’t be law school, because IANAL.

  102. 102
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @schrodingers_cat: The President was, apparently, okay with him. But the union and the rank and file don’t trust him. He got the message and has had his nomination withdrawn and will retire.

  103. 103
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    @Adam L Silverman: OK, I think I understand it better now. As far as Homan goes, no-one with his views is worthy of anything by condemnation. But the fact that he used to have “sane” views at one point, and now reinvented himself as a fascist just to advance his career almost makes it worse. I understand why Blitzer has to thank him for his long career in law enforcement. None of us should extend him the same courtesy.

    As someone (Adam perhaps?) commented on a thread late last night, the absolute incompetence of these people is one of the only good things about this entire mess. How fucking stupid do you have to be to make a spelling mistake ON THE COVER of a document certain to be scrutinized by the entire nation and the world? I spell-check stuff before I write an email, leave alone a publication for a journal (even if I know that nobody is going to read it: my H-index needs some work). Or perhaps it’s a brilliant subversive plan by somebody in the white house (not sure what the process for crafting these things is).

  104. 104
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Me in Barcelona: I’m aware. I grew up in Florida.

  105. 105
    The Moar You Know says:

    Members of Congress who visit detention facilities at the border aren’t allowed to talk to migrant children who have been taken from their parents and will be denied entry if they don’t give two weeks’ notice of a planned visit, per a new directive from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

    @rikyrah: When I was a child, Congress (both the House and Senate) took themselves very seriously. Maybe a bit too much. But had any government agency promulgated an order like this in the 60s or 70s, they’d have been defunded within a week and it would have been by veto-proof margins, likely unanimous. You did not fuck with Congress then.

    They have given away their power and dignity to a shit-filled old man who playacts at being rich.

  106. 106
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Dev Null: District and appellate court judges not going along with a power grab because they’re constrained by what the Supreme Court has deemed constitutional versus unconstitutional. They also don’t like to have their power and authority challenged. This is different than a case making its way to the Supreme Court where a long understood to be an injustice and unconstitutional action is still lying around waiting to be weaponized by the ideologues on the Supreme Court. I was largely being a smartass in asking that question because I think that Roberts’ concern with his legacy is large enough that he wouldn’t want his name tied to making Korematsu constitutional. Alito, Gorsuch, and Thomas would do that any day of the week, twice on Saturday, with a matinee on Sunday. Kennedy will decide based on whether he got the donuts with chocolate or multi-color sprinkles in the conference room that morning.

  107. 107
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    @Adam L Silverman: That is certainly true, and we should all draw comfort from the simple absolute fact of your statement: I know I certainly do, and will not go down without fighting. If Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin and Sunayana Dumala, and Hilary Clinton, and so many other folks can find the courage to get out of bed in the morning and struggle, so can we all.

  108. 108
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: I’ve been saying since election night in 2016 that the one advantage we have is that these folks are not particularly smart. They’ve got some cunning, true, but they’re not really smart. And they’re loud, they can’t keep their mouths shut, they telegraph everything, they’re sloppy. So they’re going to do a lot of damage. A lot of people, especially those who don’t deserve to be, are going to be hurt, but because they’re loud, sloppy, and telegraph everything that gives us an opportunity.

  109. 109
    Adam L Silverman says:

    They seem nice:

  110. 110
    PJ says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Noticeably, the Administration supports a policy of detaining families together “where appropriate and consistent with law and available resources” (i.e., if we don’t feel like it, we ain’t gonna do it.) And there’s nothing about reuniting families that have already been separated. He’s hoping this is going to die down and then he can go back to taking children from their families and putting them in cages or foster care.

  111. 111
    Adam L Silverman says:

    The Ministry of Truth has issues a press release:

  112. 112
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    But, but I don’t understand… I thought it was all the Democrat (sic) Party’s fault?! How can Dear Leader do something like this, when his hands are clearly tied by the weak and evil Democrats?

    Fucking George Orwell was a genius.

  113. 113
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This looks like fun!

  114. 114
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Would bet a small amount of money I don’t have that that’s a bot.

  115. 115
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: Would not surprise me.

  116. 116
    PJ says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Deep Throat on Nixon: “The truth is, these are not very bright guys, and things got out of hand.” Fast forward 45 years, and our crooked politicians have deteriorated to the point that calling them not very bright is a stretch, and their abuses of power and the law are not designed just to maintain their power, but to enrich themselves in the most obvious ways.

  117. 117
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @PJ: Ayep.

  118. 118
    WaterGirl says:

    So I took a chance to find common ground with my evangelical sister who voted for Trump and ALWAYS votes based on abortion. The sister I was with the last summer when the nazis with torches were marching in Charlottesville and the guy had just driven his car into the crowd to kill people. When I read about that on-line, I brought up what was happening and her response was to tell me how many “children” are killed by abortions every year.

    So yesterday I texted “I am pretty out of it today, torn up y the kids who are being ripped fro their families. One of the little girls in the photos looks just like (name withheld, but her granddaughter) . Imagine her being taken away from her family and being all alone. It rips my heart out.”

    Answer today:

    “I agree with you. I also think it grieves grandparents who don’t have grandkids due to them being aborted. I think it grieves the heart of God when children He has created have their chance at life stolen through abortion. No easy answers. Love you.

    I usually ignore that kind of thing and drop the subject, but today I just couldn’t.

    My reply:

    Why do you do that? These are living breathing infants and children who are terrified. Parents like (her daughter & husband) who may never see their child again. Who don’t know where their kids are. Everything is not about abortion. Caring about these kids and families and about crimes against humanity is not a betrayal of your beliefs about abortion.

    Response: Total Silence.

    I will be seeing this sister in 3 weeks, and I am sure my response did not go over well. I am so fucking sick and tired of people using their beliefs about abortion as a weapon. It’s so self-righteous, it makes me crazy.

  119. 119
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This is interesting:

  120. 120
    Ohio Mom says:

    @WaterGirl: Remind me again why you keep up with this sister? There isn’t a right or wrong answer, just curious.

    I certainly have severely emotionally limited people in my family I keep up with, though with a private sort of contract with myself concerning the shape and form of our interactions. Not that I always succeed.

  121. 121
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: We need some kind of program to help people identify propaganda and Russian bots and trolls working to influence how we see our own country. We are woefully naive and uneducated in that regard.

  122. 122
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    @Adam L Silverman: What are the implications of this? What does it mean?

  123. 123
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @EveryDayIHaveTheBlues: If I understand Moss’s point, the FBI has an open investigation into Giuliani and leaks from the NY Field Office.

  124. 124
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Yarrow: On the other hand, we fool ourselves if we assume every asshole tweet like that one is the product of a bot. We really do share our country with people like that. They are the 27% and they are loud and proud.

    Anyone of Ohio Dad’s coworkers, save one who seems a tiny bit conflicted, could have written that tweet. He’s my hero for tolerating that environment for the sake of our family.

  125. 125
    Felony Govt (Formerly Old Broad in California) says:

    Thank you to Adam and Betty and everyone else here at Balloon Juice. You have helped me get through these last few days. Like all of you, I’ve been so horrified and distressed about these kids.

  126. 126
    Anotherlurker says:

    @efgoldman: I’m glad your family is finally seeing justice.
    You mention the a-hole is a smoker and asthmatic?
    Here is the perfect gift: a carton of cigarettes/week.

  127. 127
    Yutsano says:

    @WaterGirl: Does she base this on Biblical beliefs? If so, shove it back in her face. The Old Testament didn’t even consider a “child” until 8 days after birth. And the New Testament is completely silent on the issue. There is no Biblical justification for being anti-abortion. Period.

  128. 128
    WaterGirl says:

    @Ohio Mom: There are 3 of us sisters, and I don’t feel right turning my back on family. Particularly in this case, if I turned my back on her, then it would also mean ending my relationships with her 3 children and their children.

    Plus, my mom was always cutting off her siblings and never forgave anything – thankfully, I did not get that gene.

    But Trump has certainly made it difficult, and our relationship is definitely strained since the election.

    edit: and since my sisters have no concept of boundaries, if I cut things off with that sister then everyone would take sides and at best everything with be strained with the OTHER sister and her family and their siblings.

    Since I am not married and do not have kids that would leave me with no family at all.

  129. 129
    Yarrow says:

    @Ohio Mom: I perused the feed and that’s why I felt it could be a bot. There are some telltale signs. But yes, your point is a good one and one we should keep in mind.

  130. 130
    WaterGirl says:

    @Yutsano: Interesting. I am not a bible person, so I did not know that. I will keep that in my pocket for future use. thanks.

  131. 131
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Felony Govt (Formerly Old Broad in California): You’re quite welcome.

  132. 132
    JPL says:

    @WaterGirl: You sister is not pro-life, she is pro-fetus.

  133. 133
    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    @Felony Govt (Formerly Old Broad in California): I heartily agree with you. Reading the posts and comments here reminds one that there are always good people in this world.

    @Adam L Silverman: Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps this means that IG Horowitz’ report that ignored the leaks is just a starting point? One can hope…

  134. 134
    BoDiddleySquat says:

    #Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls?

    They have lost those children. They have no idea how to return them to their families and they have no plan to do so.

    #Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls?

    #Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls?

    #Where are the toddlers? #Where are the girls?

  135. 135
    Yutsano says:

    @WaterGirl: The Talmud says “first breath”. Harming a pregnant woman was repaid in damages if it caused her to miscarry, not their life as with most body harm prohibitions. Hell there is historical evidence abortifacients were common in the ancient world. Modern abortion prohibitions are based on making sure there’s enough white babies.

  136. 136
    BoDiddleySquat says:

    @WaterGirl: Well, in 3 weeks punch her lights out and tell her you’re only sorry you didn’t do that more often when they were children because look how she turned out: Stupid, irresponsible, and unethical.

    Spare the rod, spoil the child. Amirite?

    OK, seriously, sorry about your sister. I’ve got the same thing with cousins and inlaws.

  137. 137
    Teddys Person says:

    @Yutsano: I’m gonna pimp a book by one of my disseration advisors.

    Abortion in America, James Mohr

    Blurb: history of how abortion came to be banned and how women lost–for the century between approximately 1870 and 1970–rights previously thought to be natural and inherent over their own bodies

  138. 138
    BoDiddleySquat says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Do you know if there is follow up on this?

  139. 139
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yutsano: @WaterGirl: Actually 30 days. If an infant dies before 30 days after birth it is not afforded a ritual burial as it was not considered to be alive. Rather it had been living off of the life energy (ruakh/spirit) of its mother. It is why within Judaic law and legal commentaries – the Talmud, as well as Maimonides compilation of Judaic health codes and bioethics, a foetus is referred to as a rodeph. A rodeph is a pursuer and is the term applied to a murderer, because murderers pursue the lives of their victims and then take them.

    In the bible the only actual mention of the foetus is as the eesh b’eesh, the man within the man. The passage that serves as the basis for the Catholic bioethics on abortion is mistranslated from the Hebrew to the Greek to the Latin. A “not’ was left out. The actual Hebrew from the Torah states (I’m translating here) that if two men fight within the market place and they knock over a pregnant woman, if the woman is killed they are responsible for the blood price for an accidental killing. If, however, the eesh b’eesh/the man within the man (the foetus) is destroyed they are only responsible as if they cut off one of her appendages, like a little (pinkie) finger. This led the Judaic law to recognize that terminating a pregnancy wasn’t even equivalent to an accidental killing/negligent homicide. And, because the foetus is living off of the life force of the mother, and cannot sustain itself, it is never in the right place until it is born and outside the mother. Therefore an abortion is not just permitted, but required, if the life and – with modern interpretations of Judaic law – health of the mother to abort the foetus until the crown of the head has breached the birth canal. Because as the foetus is living off the life force of the mother, and pursuing her life, it is never in the right place until it is born. And as it has no life force of its own at birth, if it dies before 30 days are up (it develops its own) it is not considered worthy of a ritual burial. For Judaism, then, ensoulment if you will does not happen all at once, but is a process that culminates at the 30th day after birth.

    Even the Catholic Church recognizes that the papal decree outlawing abortion in the late 19th Century is based on a mistranslation. But because it was done ex cathedra and with the full force of the papacy and has been in place for so long, they will not entertain changing things. They do recognize that an ectopic pregnancy is a pregnancy where the foetus is not in the right place, therefore ectopic pregnancies may be aborted. But for the Catholic Church, which has the most developed bioethics on this among Christians and the basis of all the other Christian anti-abortion bio ethics and dogma, as long as the foetus is in the womb, it is in the right place and cannot be aborted. Even recognizing that this is ultimately based on a translation error.

  140. 140
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @BoDiddleySquat: I haven’t seen any yet today. But I haven’t been looking to hard either.

  141. 141
    Mnemosyne says:


    Ugh. Yeah, the fetus fetishists are the worst, because they pile sheer numbers on you to claim that they have the moral high ground on all things for all time, case closed, QED. Frankly, that’s why they cling so hard to it — they don’t want to have to confront any actual moral problems that might not have simple answers.

    I wish I had an answer for you, but it’s like trying to explain to a Scientologist why the Xenu story is stupid. Though I did see a tweet from LOLGOP that expresses my thoughts:

    If you think that fertilized eggs are people but refugee kids are not, you’re going to have to stop pretending that your concerns are religious.

  142. 142
    Ohio Mom says:

    @WaterGirl: Fair enough. I was single until I was 40, I remembered how unmoored I felt, and how much the next generation meant (still means) to me. We all need roots.

    But I think you should give up on politics with them. Stick to how cute the latest thing a grandkid did is. And old family stories about the time Mom did whatever. JMHO.

  143. 143
    TenguPhule says:


    While of course, none of this should be happening, being in jail with their parents is incalculably better than being separated and jailed/fostered without them.

    This live action remake of Sophie’s choice is unwatchable.

  144. 144
    TenguPhule says:

    @Captain C:

    and then Did the Honorable Thing?

    Alas, Trump doesn’t drink whiskey, doesn’t have a library and his hands are too small to hold a revolver properly.

  145. 145
    Teddys Person says:


    This live action remake of Sophie’s choice is unwatchable.

    I do so appreciate your gallows humor.

  146. 146
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    They seem nice:

    They’re not going quietly or peacefully.

  147. 147
    Ohio Mom says:

    If we are doing bible quotes, the Torah (Old Testement) also repeatedly says something along the lines of (paraphrasing here), Remember the stranger and do not oppress him because you were strangers in the land of Egypt.

    Thinking of looking that up for the exact wording for my sign for June 30.

  148. 148
    WaterGirl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Wow, that’s all very interesting and helpful. Saving that info for later.

  149. 149
    Brachiator says:


    If you think that fertilized eggs are people but refugee kids are not, you’re going to have to stop pretending that your concerns are religious.

    Very good rejoinder.

  150. 150
    WaterGirl says:


    If you think that fertilized eggs are people but refugee kids are not, you’re going to have to stop pretending that your concerns are religious.

    That’s awesome.

  151. 151
    WaterGirl says:

    @Ohio Mom: Good advice. We usually don’t talk politics now, but I thought surely we could agree that ripping infants and children away from their parents was a bad idea.

  152. 152
    Jerzy Russian says:


    I think it grieves the heart of God when children He has created have their chance at life stolen through abortion.

    If I were an omnipotent being and something was pissing me off, I would simply make that thing go away. After all, who can stop me? So why doesn’t God simply stop all abortions himself?

  153. 153
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Jerzy Russian: God gave us free will? He’s a nasty SOB always setting us up? You can’t use logic on people like Sister Watergirl. They are immune to it.

  154. 154
    Ohio Mom says:

    @WaterGirl: Ah, hope springs eternal, does it not?

  155. 155
    lynn says:

    Need a comparison aerial photo of Trump summer immigrant camp and Nazi concentration camp.

  156. 156
    Steeplejack (tablet) says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    It’s not “aesthetics.” It is extremely cumbersome, especially on a device with a small screen, like a tablet or a phone, to scroll up or down the front page to find other posts when one takes up so much real estate. It is not a value judgment on your extremely important posts.

  157. 157
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jerzy Russian: I like the way you think!

  158. 158
    Dev Null says:

    @Adam L Silverman: This. Couldn’t agree more.

  159. 159
    evodevo says:

    @🌷 Martin: Yes. The whole thing reminds me of Argentina in the ’70’s, where minor children of detainees disappeared and were “adopted” by the families of the military elite. Hopefully, all of the children involved here will be reunited, but this maladministration will make the road difficult.

  160. 160
    Dev Null says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Sorry, I’m still not sure I understand the distinction you’re making.

    If you think it’s an obvious distinction, and that I’m being obtuse or willfully obstructionist, no need to respond.

    But srsly, I don’t understand your argument.

  161. 161
    Dev Null says:

    @Adam L Silverman: wait until tariffs drive the economy south.

    They’ll still support him, because this isn’t about economics, it’s about race.

  162. 162
    Dev Null says:

    @WaterGirl: I have a sib like that. Condolences.

  163. 163
    Dev Null says:

    @Ohio Mom: Speaking for me and my sib, my sib has occasionally surprised me by making sensible non-Gooper statements, even though my sib is a dyed-in-the-wool-of-the-Lamb prepper Gooper.

    I am resisting the temptation to say “you’re dead to me.”

  164. 164
    Dev Null says:

    @Yutsano: My sib is/was a GOP appartchik. That’s as much as I can say without exposing PII.

  165. 165
    Dev Null says:

    @WaterGirl: This.

  166. 166
    Dev Null says:

    @Ohio Mom: I don’t respond. Period.

  167. 167
    Dev Null says:

    @Steeplejack (tablet): And for what my opinion is worth (free, and worth every penny), your posts are invaluable. (Adam, not Steeplejack, with no disrespect to Steeplejack.)

  168. 168
    Dev Null says:

    @evodevo: Mentioned this to my sibs.

  169. 169
    J R in WV says:


    Members of Congress who visit detention facilities at the border aren’t allowed to talk to migrant children who have been taken from their parents and will be denied entry if they don’t give two weeks’ notice of a planned visit, per a new directive from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

    I have said it before and I’ll say it again. Members of congress should work with a judge to get a search warrant, go with federal marshalls and TV crews and show up at these Children’s Concentration Camps when least expected. Preferably different members of congress at many different camps at the same time.

    I vary between wanting them to force entry late at night, or at supper time, to see what the kitchens are serving the children for dinner. In either case, they should be prepared to arrest staff for child abuse, depending upon what they find. So they’ll need people familiar with child protection law and able to swear out an arrest warrant. If supper is an apple and some Pringle Chips, that’s child abuse.

    They will need to demand, have papers demanding, as served menus, routine paperwork Identifying all the children with parent’s names and documents providing someone responsible for the child’s well being at every site.

    I’m not a child welfare expert. But I know there are lots of very specific rules about child care, and these facilities have to have every i dotted and ever t crossed, or people should go to jail right then and there. And the children will need certified staff to care for them after the original site is shut down.

    Everyone there should go to jail, no bail, no passing GO, do not collect $200 — straight to jail and interviews with hostile prosecuting attorneys familiar with child welfare law. I’m done with patience. Prosecution of everyone in the neighborhood! No apologies, just take them away to jail, looking forward to nothing but trial and prison. If there are 500 counts, one for each child, that’s a long sentence even for a trivial offense.

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    J R in WV says:


    Well said !! It make me want to spend more time on designing my invective ! Welcome to America; we need more people like you, with good grammar and the ability to put the vile in their place.

    Stick around, please! B-J needs you on duty.

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    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Dev Null: I just got back to this. I don’t think your obtuse, but I just finished working on a project and don’t have the mental energy to pick this back up.

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    EveryDayIHaveTheBlues says:

    @J R in WV: Dead thread, probably, but I’ll respond regardless. It is very kind of you to say that: Thank you! And of course, I do plan to stick around. This is my country now and I will fucking fight as much as I need to.

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