Arrested Development, Not Just a Name

If you haven’t already, the Arrested Development cast interview in the NY Times is quite the read:

SHAWKAT But that doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. And the point is that things are changing, and people need to respect each other differently.

WALTER [THROUGH TEARS] Let me just say one thing that I just realized in this conversation. I have to let go of being angry at him. He never crossed the line on our show, with any, you know, sexual whatever. Verbally, yes, he harassed me, but he did apologize. I have to let it go. [Turns to Tambor.] And I have to give you a chance to, you know, for us to be friends again.

TAMBOR Absolutely.

WALTER But it’s hard because honestly — Jason says this happens all the time. In like almost 60 years of working, I’ve never had anybody yell at me like that on a set. And it’s hard to deal with, but I’m over it now. I just let it go right here, for The New York Times.

There’s a lot to unpack there, but one of my first thoughts, since it is my reaction to whenever something or someone is pissing me off or shitting all over me, was “Why didn’t she just leave?”

Obviously, SHE SHOULDN’T FUCKING HAVE TO BE THE ONE TO LEAVE because she wasn’t the one creating the toxic environment and you’d think someone would have put an end to his (Tambor’s) bullshit, but they didn’t. And then it dawned on me- even though she’s been in the industry for 60 years, she’s probably been paid shit compared to her male coworkers the whole time, and might just need the money.

At any rate, give it a read. I certainly think less of Jason Bateman and would not be surprised if Justine reads him the damned riot act.






259 replies
  1. 1
    JPL says:

    Jason Bateman apologized for his words https://twitter.com/yashar/status/999630687358636032

    Read Bateman before you totally write him off.

  2. 2
    MrSnrub says:

    @JPL: Agreed.

  3. 3
    stinger says:

    Women leave toxic environments all the time — often they have few options. And then a) their careers suffer, because they are leaving for probably a less desirable job and because their record now shows that they don’t stick with a job, and b) the toxicity continues for someone else.

    The ones who leave and still somehow manage to have great careers are the exceptions. Often they “redefine” what success means, and then other women (gays, minorities) can follow that path. So good can come out of evil.

  4. 4
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    This is nothing compared to Morgan Freeman. He’s a real sick puppy:
    Women accuse Morgan Freeman of inappropriate behavior, harassment

    One of the three, CNN entertainment reporter Chloe Melas, the co-author of this article, says she was subjected to inappropriate behavior by Freeman more than a year ago, when she interviewed him at a press junket for “Going in Style.” According to Melas, who was six months pregnant at the time, Freeman, in a room full of people, including his co-stars Arkin and Caine, shook Melas’ hand, not letting go while repeatedly looking her up and down and saying more than once a variation of, “I wish I was there.” She says he also said to her, “You are ripe.” Cameras were on and recording during one of Freeman’s remarks to Melas — “Boy, do I wish I was there” — but not for the rest. As is common practice with such junkets, Melas was the only CNN employee there at the time.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but is this Freeman admitting he has pregnancy fetish?

  5. 5
    The Moar You Know says:

    So Tambor’s a rage screamer. In my previous life as a musician, I’ve worked with those. No fun, people shouldn’t be like that but sometimes they are – you can’t take that shit personally. If you do you simply won’t be able to work in the industry.

  6. 6
    Mike in DC says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:
    A pregnancy fetish is fine. A sexual harassment fetish is not.

  7. 7
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @JPL: pretty good apology, and I haven’t listened to the audio yet, but it sure as hell read like the men were all piling on– not just Bateman (who picked a particularly bad time to go on Colbert and riff on how Will Arnett’s a big girl, he did keep hitting the joke again waiting for laughs that never came. Made me wonder if the audience had been reading twitter, and he hadn’t), but also Arnett, David Cross (who is probably gonna hear about it from Amber Tamblyn, who doesn’t seem to fuck around) and Tony Hale.

  8. 8
    trollhattan says:

    @JPL:
    I’ll give him his due for not issuing a non-apology apology but an actual mea culpa. But Christ, what does it take for people to realize how they’re contributing to and not stemming [banana reference] these problems?

  9. 9
    Roger Moore says:

    The whole thing just seems like classic behavior around an abusive person. They’re all tip-toeing around the abuser trying not to set him off, and even when it’s somebody else having problems they’re far more worried about placating the abuser than about supporting the victim.

  10. 10
    trollhattan says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:
    I’ll limit myself to fucking creepy and weird. As to what he’s actually saying, not gonna go there.

  11. 11
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @The Moar You Know: even before the Transparent stories, I’d heard about Tambor being a (probably unstable) dick to co-workers and interviewers. Made me wonder about The Larry Sanders Show, but I imagine nobody could intimidate or out-crazy Rip Torn.

  12. 12
    LAO says:

    @JPL: I appreciate Bateman’s apology but I can’t stand the impulse that man have to defend the bad behavior of other men.

    Also, the audio of the interview is MUCH worse than the transcript.

  13. 13
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Mike in DC:
    No, I mean it seemed like he wanted to be the fetus in her womb. Notice he said, “I wish I was there”. If I’m correct, I can’t believe he thought that was okay to say out loud. That’s weird.

    The sexual harassment is just the tip of the iceberg for me. I don’t usually judge people, but there are some lines that should just never be crossed.

  14. 14
    ruemara says:

    @JPL: pff. He wouldn’t be trash if he’d been remotely considerate during the interview and resisted showing his ass to cozy up to Tambor. Bros over hoes indeed.

    Welcome to being a woman, JC. Sometimes you have to deal with hostile environments, up to & including angry, near-violent bosses, sexual harassment and obvious boys’ club practices. It has to be pretty bad to go. She’s 77. Great roles for women over 38 are few in Hollywood. Fewer if you stand up for yourself. Being straight is definitely not a choice because god I’d love to be a man for a bit. Think how lovely it would be to not fear what you’re attracted to or have no way to express anger at what’s bothering you so you regret having a vag instead!

    I’d be madder at these guys but, boy, I’ve gotten used to expecting some level of trash behavior from everyone. They got some pushback, probably chewed out by hardworking, largely female publicists, plus relatives & are doing some level of damage control. Yay. I remain hopeful that this is a permanent improvement in their understanding.

  15. 15
    trollhattan says:

    Some worthwhile reading for fans–Drew Magary interviews Sarah Silverman.

  16. 16
    Readily says:

    @The Moar You Know: Then maybe it’s time to change fucking industry?

    I’ve had it with accommodating toxic men and their raging, raping, yelling ways. That behavior needs to be stigmatized (and prosecuted) as much as taking a giant dump on the conference room table would be.

  17. 17
    Nicole says:

    even though she’s been in the industry for 60 years, she’s probably been paid shit compared to her male coworkers the whole time, and might just need the money.

    Ding ding ding. Not to mention, had she done so (walked off), guess who would have been the one labelled, “difficult to work with”? Hint: not the one with the p*n*s. Add onto that, being a woman over 40 in entertainment and she might never have worked again. Yes, Virginia, it’s that bad for women in the industry.

    One of my favorite (and frustrating to hear) stories about her is when they were casting Archer, the call went out for a “Jessica Walters type” for the role of Archer’s mom, and it was Walters’ agent who had to make the call to casting to say, “How about, you know, Jessica Walters?”

  18. 18
    JPL says:

    @LAO: I definitely agree and I think someone mentioned that he sounded like an ass.

  19. 19
    HeleninEire says:

    @JPL: WOW. An apology that I actually believed is sincere. Who knew?

  20. 20
    Nicole says:

    Dangnabbit; I’m in moderation. I’ve been here long enough; you think I’d know better than to use the “P” word, but clearly I don’t.

  21. 21
    Brachiator says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    pretty good apology

    Yep.

    @The Moar You Know:

    So Tambor’s a rage screamer. In my previous life as a musician, I’ve worked with those. No fun, people shouldn’t be like that but sometimes they are – you can’t take that shit personally. If you do you simply won’t be able to work in the industry.

    The arts world is strange. Shit that would get you fired in any other industry is too often standard operating procedure.

    I’ve had bosses who liked to shout at people. For one boss, it was really more like letting off steam. I never saw him actually direct abuse at anybody. Another boss wrongly thought that shouting at people was a form of motivation.

    Neither boss ever shouted at me. I guess I gave off vibes that I would not put up with that bullshit. As a supervisor, I never yelled at an employee.

  22. 22
    Betty Cracker says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: Oh, FFS. If Tom Hanks is revealed as a creeper, I’m giving up on Hollywood!

  23. 23
    oatler. says:

    “I’ve made a huge mistake.”

  24. 24
    Mart says:

    “I wish I was there”

    I read that as wishing he was the one who impregnated her.

  25. 25
    HeleninEire says:

    @trollhattan: I think part of that is they (the men) who are hearing it “live” for the first time think “Well I didn’t see it it didn’t happen to me so how could it have happened?”

  26. 26
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:
    Of course he could have just meant that he wishes he was there when the kid was conceived or that he could have been the father of said kid. Any which way you look at it, creepy is the only way to describe it.

  27. 27
    Bobby Thomson says:

    What I’m struck by is that Walter’s had a pretty sheltered existence if she hasn’t been yelled at in 60 years of working in any job. Shouters yell at everyone, they come in both male and female variations, and in my business they’re not rare.

  28. 28
    trollhattan says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    “Tom Hanks and Ron Howard sex slave ring, revealed!”
    –Hollywood Reporter

    Something like that?

  29. 29
    guachi says:

    The closest I’ve come to hanging around Hollywood types was spending a day on the set of the new Mystery Science Theater 3000 in September 2016. We hung out for 12 hours from 10 am to 10 pm. Everyone was professional and friendly. I even got to see Mark Hamill, who showed up to the set still with his Jedi beard and shaved it all off to do a scene. The main actors were really nice and seemed a bit overwhelmed. The director/head writer (wrote for The Daily Show) was nice. All the producers were nice. It’s what you’d expect from professionals. It never occurred to me that they’d be jerks or anything.

    The End.

  30. 30
    Nicole says:

    @Bobby Thomson: That’s not what she said. She said she’s never had anyone yell at her “like that,” which indicates pretty clearly to this lady-parts owning person that it must have been pretty bad, because trust me, we lady-parts owning folk are very familiar with being screamed at by the non-lady-parts owning folk. I guarantee you, she’s not sheltered at all; Tambor is the sheltered one, because he’s protected from the consequences of his crappy behavior, probably for decades. I’d be curious to hear if Joyce DeWitt has any stories from his days on Three’s Company.

  31. 31
    nwerner says:

    Is working with an unstable person prone to outbursts really a gender issue?

    I haven’t been working for 60 years and I most certainly haven’t made her lifetime wages but I have an adequate amount of money stockpiled to not be treated like an asshole. It’s not like she’s hustling tables for tips with mouths to feed at home.

  32. 32
    stinger says:

    @LAO: Haven’t listened to the audio and I realize the “transcript” was edited, but it really stands out that the men are all downplaying, joking, universalizing, and changing the subject. It’s Jessica Walter — and not the interviewer — who has to bring the interviewer back to his(?) original question, and the only other woman, Alia Shawkat, who calls it unacceptable and talks about respect. It’s as if the men don’t yet quite acknowledge how wrong it was.

    Bateman’s apology seems good, though it’s for Walter, not me, to determine that.

  33. 33
    NotMax says:

    Time to watch Play Misty for Me again.

    For whatever it may be worth, Walter’s husband, actor Ron Leibman, was at one time known for having epic shouting matches with directors, including walking off sets or stages in fits of pique.

  34. 34
    LongHairedWeirdo says:

    Ironically, my life has often been such that, if I’m the one getting crapped on, I was the one who had to leave, because *I* was the problem.

    I’ve had a couple people tell me I have that “special something” that says “bully/abuse me” to the right kind of person. And worse, I no longer put up with it, so I don’t follow the script, and that makes me a troublemaker. And then, when people try to brush me off, I’m so *ungrateful*, because I want to know what protection I have from having this repeated, rather than promises that I’ll never, ever earn this mistreatment again, by, you know, getting flustered, confused, or, you know, breathing….

  35. 35
    JPL says:

    @LAO: OT FBI file on Epstein was just released
    https://twitter.com/christinawilkie/status/999720073140035586

    NEW: @FBI just released nearly 300 pages of files on Jeffrey Epstein, a billionaire alleged to have ties to both Donald Trump and Bill Clinton.

  36. 36
    stinger says:

    @Bobby Thomson: So she should just get over it.

  37. 37
    Brachiator says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Made me wonder about The Larry Sanders Show, but I imagine nobody could intimidate or out-crazy Rip Torn.

    Rip Torn is one of the greatest redundant names in show biz.

    The other is Peter O’Toole.

    The best self-contradictory name is Dick Van Dyke.

    @trollhattan:

    Some worthwhile reading for fans–Drew Magary interviews Sarah Silverman.

    Still cannot quite reconcile her defense of Louis CK.

    And even though I was sad that Al Franken resigned, I cannot endorse what Silverman is selling:

    I’ve never met a more pure person

  38. 38
    rikyrah says:

    #ICYMI: Lucy McBath, #GunControl advocate will advance to a primary runoff in #GA6. @jamilahking profiles @LucyWins2018, who lost her 17 yr old son to gun violence & demanding attention be paid to communities of color impacted by everyday shootings. https://t.co/CU43NwvBOC

    — Lawyers’ Committee (@LawyersComm) May 24, 2018

  39. 39
    rikyrah says:

    @JPL:
    is t hat the one with the underaged girls?

  40. 40
    Mary G says:

    If Bateman wrote that apology himself I will be very surprised. And everybody who is calling her hypersensitive can fuck right off. You are doing the same thing he did.

  41. 41
    rikyrah says:

    The Parkland Kids emphasis on voter registration is a smart move for a number of reasons:

    1. It’s true that you need the votes to vote people in and out.
    2. It’s something CONSTRUCTIVE that you can get ANYONE involved with. Not everyone can do policy. Not everyone can be in the POLICY lane. But, pretty much anyone can be in the VOTER REGISTRATION lane.
    3. Most gun laws are local. Legislative bodies aren’t always in session. What do you do when they’re NOT in session – register people to vote, so that they can be contacted when they’re back in session.
    Movements can stall if folks think they’re nothing to do. Voter registration is something that can always been done.

  42. 42

    Never seen the show, don’t know any Hollywood celebrities.

  43. 43
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @guachi:
    There are plenty of people who work in Hollywood who are individually nice people, like the ones you met. But people also put on masks in different social situations; not necessarily a problem since we all have to do it. You don’t act the same way you would around close friends at your job for example, interacting with customers/members of the public.

    Sometimes we just don’t know what goes on behind closed doors. The real issue is that entertainment industry has systemic problems that are present in wider society.

  44. 44
    Yutsano says:

    @JPL: Guess which one the press will target. Come on.

  45. 45

    @rikyrah: Agreed, they are smarter than the Occupy Wall Street people.

  46. 46
    Brachiator says:

    @Nicole:

    I’d be curious to hear if Joyce DeWitt has any stories from his days on Three’s Company.

    Whose days on Three’s Company?

  47. 47
    Nicole says:

    @nwerner:

    I haven’t been working for 60 years and I most certainly haven’t made her lifetime wages but I have an adequate amount of money stockpiled to not be treated like an asshole. It’s not like she’s hustling tables for tips with mouths to feed at home.

    So you’re saying she should give up something she likes to do because we can’t possible expect the guy actually exhibiting the bad behavior to be held accountable. Talk about your “boys will be boys” mentality.

  48. 48
    The Other Chuck says:

    People who cannot accept a sincere apology will find that eventually nobody bothers to apologize to them.

  49. 49
    JustRuss says:

    Bateman’s Twitter apology is pretty good. I’m disappointed in Tambor, he seems to be making the minimum acceptable apologetic noises, not sure he really gets it. It’s impossible to change that kind of behavior until you own that you are the problem…speaking from experience.

  50. 50
    JPL says:

    @rikyrah: I haven’t read the report, but yes. I have company coming in a hour and need to vacuum. lol

    The beds are made though

  51. 51
    Nicole says:

    @Brachiator: Jeffrey Tambor’s. He did recurring roles on it, as I recall. Mind you, I was watching as a child, so he may have a doppelganger, but I remember thinking, “Oh, that guy from Three’s Company and The Ropers” every time I saw him on something.

    I don’t claim to have had good taste in TV as an 8-year-old.

  52. 52
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Nicole: I’ve been yelled at by the Michelangelos of yelling. It’s called life, and it’s not a male-female thing.

  53. 53
    trollhattan says:

    @Brachiator:
    That was my first learning she stabbed Al in the head with a pencil on SNL.

  54. 54
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Roger Moore:

    The whole thing just seems like classic behavior around an abusive person. They’re all tip-toeing around the abuser trying not to set him off, and even when it’s somebody else having problems they’re far more worried about placating the abuser than about supporting the victim.

    Yep. The abuser has the most amount of power — Tambor was the only one of the cast to be a “name” at the time — so everyone else has to accommodate him.

    And I’m horrified by the assholes who think the solution was for Walter to quit her job and let Tambor continue abusing everyone else. WTF is wrong with you?

  55. 55
    geg6 says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    I’ve been in the workforce for over 40 years. I’ve worked jobs ranging from my current position in academia all the way back to my first jobs as a lifeguard and waitress. I have never once been screamed at by a boss or co-worker. They have snarked at me, flirted with me and interacted in pretty much every possible way to interact in the workplace. But never, ever been screamed at. The only people I’ve ever had scream at me on the job were customers (almost always men) and unhappy students (again, almost always men).

    I don’t understand why you seem to think this is something that everyone has to deal with and get used to as a part of working. That’s bullshit.

  56. 56
    trollhattan says:

    Oopsie.

    Iowa state Sen. Nate Boulton (D) announced he “is suspending his campaign for governor just weeks before the Democratic primary, following allegations of sexual misconduct from multiple women,” Politico reports.

    “Boulton, one of the top tier candidates in the Democratic primary competing to face Republican Gov. Kim Reynolds, was accused by three women of sexual misconduct in a report published by the Des Moines Register on Wednesday. Boulton did not deny the allegations, initially telling the paper that he did “not have the same recollection.”

  57. 57
    JustRuss says:

    @Brachiator: Tambor was in the the Threes Company spinoff about their landlords. He did appear on 3C a few times.

  58. 58
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Bobby Thomson: The reason “it’s called life” is that people are willing to make excuses for assholes, such as excusing inexcusable behavior by claiming that “it’s called life.”

  59. 59
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    It’s called life, and it’s not a male-female thing.

    Wow. Nice to know that workplace abuse is A-OK with you because, hey, you got yelled at a couple of times and you didn’t mind.

  60. 60
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Exactly. The Parkland kids understand that in order to change the system you have begin by playing by the system’s rules to an extent. Only by electing reps that got their primarily by their money and votes will there ever be an end to the NRA’s influence.

  61. 61
    Brachiator says:

    @Nicole:

    Jeffrey Tambor’s. He did recurring roles on it, as I recall. Mind you, I was watching as a child, so he may have a doppelganger, but I remember thinking, “Oh, that guy from Three’s Company and The Ropers” every time I saw him on something.

    I don’t claim to have had good taste in TV as an 8-year-old.

    Ah. OK. I watched the show now and then, but Tambor’s appearances, I guess, never registered because I can’t recall him at all.

    I remember the show being funny enough for TV, and John Ritter did pretty good pratfalls.

  62. 62
    geg6 says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    They are men. They don’t think it’s a problem at all.

  63. 63
    Yutsano says:

    @trollhattan: Better now than later. The last thing we need is a sex scandal popping up out of nowhere.

  64. 64
    JR says:

    Jeffrey Tambor is a fucking prick
    David Cross is too

    The irony of the latter is that most people thought Odenkirk was the asshole of the Mr. Show duo

  65. 65
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    The reason “it’s called life” is that people are willing to make excuses for assholes, such as excusing inexcusable behavior by claiming that “it’s called life.”

    Yep. Also known as My parents beat me with a belt every day, so my kids shouldn’t complain when all I do is punch them in the face once or twice a week.

  66. 66
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    I know. Tom Hanks being an asshole or creep would really suck. I’ve liked nearly every movie he’s ever been in.

  67. 67
    nwerner says:

    @Nicole: I would think that walking off the job would force the issue more than suffering in silence for years. She had a very visible platform with a devoted following yet she couldn’t leverage it to her advantage?

    “Boys will be boys”? I am quite certain, from personal experience, this personality profile is not a gender specific one.

  68. 68
    Mnemosyne says:

    @geg6:

    Roger gets it, and he’s a man. So is Goku, IIRC. There are some guys who get it.

    But the ones who don’t get it by now are the ones who refuse to understand.

  69. 69

    @guachi: Very cool! I’m jealous. I wish I was th– oh, shit, wait.

    DAMN YOU, MORGAN FREEMAN.

  70. 70
    Mnemosyne says:

    @nwerner:

    I would think that walking off the job would force the issue more than suffering in silence for years.

    How did that work out for Rose MacGowan, Asia Argento, Salma Hayek, Annabella Sciorra .. do you need me to go on?

    Plenty of actresses have walked out when they couldn’t take the abuse anymore, and nothing changed.

  71. 71
    Tenar Arha says:

    There was an article on NPR that was good Under The Skin: Why That ‘Arrested Development’ Interview Is So Bad.

    IMHO I guess Bateman apologized unreservedly, but he also spent time explaining that his comments during the interview were not what he intended to convey. Intent isn’t magic, & I believe we forgive too soon when we see a whole group of men show their a**es this way. I think we all need to look at exactly how this went down, because otherwise we’re going to be back here again in just a week or three pointing out another egregious example of men behaving with utter thoughtlessness & women suffering through the consequences.

    ETA believe it or not, what’s unfortunately & incorrectly refreshing about this whole episode is that the verbally abusive workplace behavior seems so “normal” (it’s not) after reading the other crapola coming out today.

  72. 72
    donnah says:

    I’m surprised by the people who are giving shouter/screamers a pass here. That type of behavior is immature, unprofessional, and unacceptable anywhere, workplace or home, privately or in public. It’s bullying and demeaning.

    People who are screamed at do not deserve it, shouldn’t be told to “get over it”, “deal with it” or “don’t be so sensitive”.

    Jeezus, when do we stop critizing the victims and call the abusers out?

  73. 73
    Jack the Second says:

    I’d also note that Lucille is a much more important character on the show than George/Oscar. I think the show would work fine if you took away any individual except Lucille or Michael.

    So the producers/directors/whoever it is whose job it is to be the responsible adults are making clear that it is ok for a secondary male actor to yell at a leading female actress.

  74. 74
    Brachiator says:

    @nwerner:

    I would think that walking off the job would force the issue more than suffering in silence for years. She had a very visible platform with a devoted following yet she couldn’t leverage it to her advantage?

    Oh, stop it. Actors often get a lot of shit, but women often catch shit and then get extra shit piled on if they are “difficult.” They then get labeled and don’t get work.

    And you see Harvey Weinstein deliberately labeling women as difficult after they rebuffed his advances. And what happened? Their careers got stalled.

    I know that people can have different opinions about what people should or should not put up with. But damn, pay attention to the goddam evidence in front of you.

  75. 75
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @geg6: must be nice. There’s a reason academic jobs are referred to as an ivory tower. They aren’t typical.

  76. 76
    geg6 says:

    @nwerner:

    So you’ve had a female boss or co-worker who was a shouter. But here’s a couple of questions for you, if you are a male:

    1) When a co-worker or boss shouted at you in a sudden rage, were you afraid for your physical safety? Were you smaller and less strong than that person? Is it likely that you could be physically intimidated?

    2) Were you a middle-aged woman in a career with few prospects for women over the age of 40 and were suddenly making some of the best money you’d made in decades? Are you in a career that only a very small, lucky number of people every make a cent in, let alone the paycheck that a hit show can provide?

    If you can’t answer yes to those questions, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

  77. 77
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Brachiator:

    And you see Harvey Weinstein deliberately labeling women as difficult after they rebuffed his advances. And what happened? Their careers got stalled.

    Yep. But Walter was supposed to quit her job because that totally would have changed things, unlike the hundreds of other times when hundreds of other actresses quit and not a damn thing changed. Because Jessica Walter is just. that. powerful. 🙄

  78. 78
    Roger Moore says:

    I’ve seen a number of commenters making some variant of “dealing with abusive people is part of the working world” explanation, and I think it’s missing the point. Maybe that’s the way thing have been, but there’s no good reason to continue putting up with it. We don’t accept physical abuse in the workplace. Why should we accept verbal abuse? The goal should be to change the culture so people no longer have to accept abusive coworkers as a condition of keeping their jobs.

  79. 79
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    I worked at a banquet center job for 4.5 years. I can only think of a handful of times where my bosses ever raised their voices at me. Could they be dicks sometimes? Sure. But they never screamed at me.

    Asshole bosses who scream and demean their employees are terrible leaders who can’t keep their positions filled.

  80. 80
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Neither is being screamed at in the workplace. I’ve had exactly one (1) job where that was a problem, and I work in entertainment.

    You should perhaps consider that you have worked in shitty, atypically abusive places if you think this behavior is normal.

  81. 81

    @Mnemosyne: Well, you know, one guy put up with it once, so these women are too sensitive. But you know, we’re emotional like that.

    Gosh, I wonder why men triggered into screaming their heads off in a professional setting aren’t considered too sensitive. Whatever could the reason be?

  82. 82
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Bobby Thomson: Yup. Sexism, sexual harassment, the preferential treatment given to overbearing (and almost always overrated) “stars”, these things are unknown on university campuses.

  83. 83
    geg6 says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    Fuck off, asshole. I worked in menial jobs for the first twenty years of my work life, ten of those after I entered academia because I was being paid starvation wages for that cushy “ivory tower” in academia. I’ve worked as a lifeguard, a waitress, a bartender, in retail…and, to be honest, in my area of academia, there is no ivory tower. I started my academic career teaching in a GED/ABE program. I moved from that to disabled student services. I am currently a financial aid director and, believe me, there is nothing cushy or sheltered about my job. I work with the public all day, every day, in some of the most stressful situations you can imagine. But you be you. Glad I don’t work with you.

  84. 84
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    I am a man, as you remember correctly. All it takes is listening and a little empathy.

  85. 85
    stinger says:

    @nwerner: Load of crap.

    Sure, #notallmen and sure, #somewomen, but your personal experience notwithstanding, that type of abusive behavior is predominantly adopted by those with power = men.

  86. 86
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    Twenty some odd years ago, I worked for an equal opportunity rage screamer. He ate opioids like M&Ms, fired previous associated lawyers on a whim, drove away any notion of me having my own clientele and fabricated excuses to rip me off from pay I was due. He’d routinely fly into fits at either me or the secretary (sometimes both), and was incredibly abusive about time, as he’d drift into the office after 3 pm and want me to stay until 8 or 9. At the time, I had a mortgage, three small children, two car payments and a wife who was a homemaker.

    I did it because I had to, for 14 long months. Two things happened – he completely boned a two week wrongful death med mal trial – a case that he’d neglected and mismanaged for the previous 10 years before I ever got there (his case theory was wrong and the medical expert was an idiot). I’d gotten it ready for trial and had twisted enough around for it to be sellable. I’d gotten the opening done and had done a credible job on the first few witnesses when, high as a goddamned kite, he decides he wants to take over. Spent the next week and a half babbling incoherently and completely undoing what I’d carefully built. Jury was out for less than an hour before rendering a defense verdict. The second thing was that I’d scheduled an expert depo for the litigation which ultimately resulted in bar discipline for him – it was a fiasco case, also a decade old, grotesquely mismanaged from the start (never should have been filed). I had a good roadmap (it was a liver transplant expert), and was ready for it. He went into a rage at his the secretary for not reminding him about it more than three days in advance – I reminded him that I had told him about it 10 days before, and he turned his ire at me for not giving him a double reminder and working with him on it for “strategy”. It was bad – he directed that it be canceled and that another motion to continue the trial would have to be filed.

    After he and the secretary left, I gathered what files were my individual cases, made a list of the cases I’d need to withdraw from and file liens on, put my pager and door keys on the table, triggered the thumb lock and set the alarm. Left no note – I just went home and poured on a helluva drunk as I worried about the future.

    He didn’t call and never sent a letter – he knew. I didn’t talk to him for two years, when we settled a chunky lien I had on one appealed verdict. Apparently, no other associate he had ever held his feet to the fire like I had, and he told me he’d been surprised that I left like that. Since then, he’s actually sent me cases from time to time.

    Raging people are going to rage – and it isn’t always about picking on women or toxic masculinity (you should hear what I listen to on a routine basis in terms of recordings from women in child custody cases. You should also hear about managers – men and women – who are incredible rage monkeys in the workplace).

    Both genders are capable of being angry assholes, and their targets are nonspecific.

  87. 87
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    May I say that I am so tired of these abusers and their enablers? As rikyrah says, the curve for mediocre white men is real:

    USC’s Academic Senate Calls on President to Resign Over Gynecologist Scandal.

    First the university takes its sweet time dismissing the harassing physician at the student health center, and then they do not report him to the medical board, so he can continue in his harassing ways elsewhere. SMDH.

  88. 88
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Mnemosyne: well, I certainly don’t think it’s the same sport as some lech whipping his dick out. I’ve never considered verbal abuse to be remotely comparable to physical abuse.

  89. 89
    nwerner says:

    @Mnemosyne: Indeed. I don’t believe that Jeffrey Tambor, as an allegedly co-equal member of an ensemble cast on a serialized program, had the same power that Weinstein did. I find the presumptions about the lack of agency to be sexist in their own right. It’s about power and knowing the power that one has.

  90. 90
    germy says:

    I remember Tambor from MASH. He was all over TV in the ’70s, one of those character actors I found personally repellant. Back then he had thick hair and sideburns.

    He’s one of the old actors I didn’t recognize when I saw him recently. I didn’t make the connection to the 1970s version of him. Same thing happened to me when I saw Orson Bean in something. I didn’t realize he was the guy I’d seen be so pompous on the Merv Griffin show.

  91. 91
    Elizabelle says:

    Breaking news from the Vichy Times: Harvey Weinstein expected to be arrested tomorrow in NYC for sexual crimes.

    Investigators in Manhattan were preparing to arrest Harvey Weinstein on Friday after a monthslong inquiry into allegations that he sexually assaulted numerous women.

    Mr. Weinstein is expected to surrender to authorities on Friday morning, according to two law enforcement officials.

    I wonder if they’ve got him on suicide watch. I don’t see how he skates on these charges.

    ETA: Here’s the Times’ actual headline: Harvey Weinstein, Accused of Sex Assault, Facing Arrest in New York

  92. 92

    @nwerner: She shouldn’t need to walk off the job ffs. She wasn’t doing anything wrong. WTF?!

  93. 93
    germy says:

    @Elizabelle: He seems like the type to flee to a foreign embassy.

  94. 94
    geg6 says:

    @Bobby Thomson:

    I’ve never considered verbal abuse to be remotely comparable to physical abuse.

    Glad you’re not working in psychology or social work. Because you’d know better if you were. Verbal abuse can be deadly.

  95. 95
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Both genders are capable of being angry assholes, and their targets are nonspecific.

    Yes, but when women do it (or even just act stern, when being a boss demands it) they are called “bitches”. When men do it, sometimes they are called assholes, but often get away with that shit. Women are also more easily victimized because they are socialized by society to not be aggressive, to always question themselves when a man screams at them.

  96. 96

    @nwerner: Because pointing out sexism is sexist. Okay.

  97. 97
    Elizabelle says:

    @germy: Ecuador got one in NYC?

  98. 98
    germy says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Ecuador got one in NYC?

    #Free Weinstein!

  99. 99
  100. 100
    Mary G says:

    @The Other Chuck: Just to be clear, I accept the apology. It’s an excellent apology. I imagined what John did – that the audio came out and he saw the flames on Twitter or got yelled at by his wife/sister/mother/agent/random woman on the street and was either legitimately horrified at his behavior or at the rage directed against him and got help with writing an apology. I give him the benefit of the doubt.

    It was an interview designed to sell the show to viewers and how you do that is be funny and charming, so that was the role they were trying to play. They had probably done it with 15 other journalists who are not of Sopan Deb’s quality and were thoroughly sick of it. But it does not in any way excuse Tambor.

  101. 101
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Bobby Thomson: I’ve worked in commerce and industry for over 40 years, and have been screamed at precisely one time. It is not typical.

    Oh, and when he did, I walked out of his office and said “I’ll come back when you’re feeling better.”

  102. 102
    ruemara says:

    @guachi: Many of those guys have amazing reputations. Mark was sweet as anything to me when I met him and a friend of mine lived near him in NYC. Had nothing but good things to say from her & the local store employees. But still, everyone has bad behavior.

    @rikyrah: Yep.

    @The Other Chuck: Men need to shut up and not tell women what to do with apologies.

  103. 103
    geg6 says:

    @Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA):

    The mansplaining in this thread has my blood pressure spiking.

    It’s everywhere, even on an almost top 10,000 blog.

    So, so, so sick of it.

  104. 104
    clay says:

    @Nicole:

    One of my favorite (and frustrating to hear) stories about her is when they were casting Archer, the call went out for a “Jessica Walters type” for the role of Archer’s mom, and it was Walters’ agent who had to make the call to casting to say, “How about, you know, Jessica Walters?”

    That seems to be a fairly common Hollywood story. From John McGinley:

    I got the pilot for Scrubs sent to me, and in the margin for Dr. Cox, it said ‘a John McGinley type.’ So when I went in to audition, I said to Billy Lawrence, who’s a dear friend of mine, I said, ‘Well, I’m John McGinley.’ And he said, ‘I know, but because there’s so many ladles in the soup in television, you have to go through an audition process.’ Disney was the producer, so I had to audition twice at Disney. And NBC was the exhibitor, and so I auditioned twice at NBC. So I auditioned for ‘a John McGinley type’ five times.

  105. 105
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA):

    Because pointing out sexism is sexist. Okay.

    Of course it is. Just like pointing out racism is racist, dontcha know.

  106. 106
    nwerner says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: You seem to be think of this in a way that she’d be depriving herself of her livelihood by walking off the job. I look at it from the vantage point that she had a valuable platform to highlight an issue that is important. Why do workers strike? Certainly they are depriving themselves of their livelihood but the aim is toward a higher end.

  107. 107
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @geg6:

    So, so, so sick of it.

    Word.

  108. 108
    zhena gogolia says:

    @guachi:

    Thank you! If Mike Nelson turned out to be a creep, I don’t know what I’d do.

  109. 109
    Nicole says:

    @Brachiator:

    John Ritter did pretty good pratfalls.

    Better than pretty good. That man was a genius at slapstick.

  110. 110
    germy says:

    Hugh O’Brian gave me the following points—as The Five Most Important Stages in the Life of an Actor:

    (1) “Who is Hugh O’Brian?”
    (2) “Get me Hugh O’Brian as the star of our next picture!”
    (3) “Get me somebody who’s a Hugh O’Brian type.”
    (4) “Get me a young Hugh O’Brian.”
    (5) “Who WAS Hugh O’Brian?”

  111. 111
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @nwerner:

    Why do workers strike?

    Workers strike en masse, not individually, for a reason. I shall assume you are merely pretending to be stupid.

  112. 112
    ruemara says:

    @Bobby Thomson: You really need to experience verbal abuse, then. It can be quite as horrible as some lech whipping his dick out.

    @zhena gogolia: He’s a republican. Mostly sane, but, there’s that.

  113. 113
    Nicole says:

    @geg6:

    The mansplaining in this thread has my blood pressure spiking.

    Yeah. I’m with you there. Patriarchy. It’s all-pervasive.

    I didn’t like Bateman’s apology. It was the, “I was trying to encourage Tambor to grow!” Dude, your other co-star is literally in tears, right there.

  114. 114
    germy says:

    Somewhat OT, but a NYPost and NYT obituary:

    Patricia O’Grady, an obscure Off-Broadway actress, named publicly by esteemed director, Herbert Berghoff, one of the best actresses in the United States, died on March 12. She was 84 years of age. She died from injuries after being hit by a car near her home in Greenwich Village, New York City, according to her sister, Roberta O’Grady. Ms. O’Grady had a 50 year career in the theater, starting with a lead in an original high school musical in 1950 and ending in 2000 with “The Dora Project,” a play at the HB Studio on the later life of Dora Maar, one of the mistresses of Pablo Picasso.

    Ms. O’Grady often said that she “made a life in the theater without making a living in it,” (A quote not original with her) and this was made possible by her Village apartment where she lived for over 60 years and paid under $30 per month rent! A friend once dubbed it a ‘dump with character,’ and as primitive as it was, it enabled her to do exactly what she wanted to do.​

    When Patricia O’Grady moved into the top floor of a Greenwich Village walk-up in 1955, she and her three roommates helped sweep the hallway in exchange for a discounted rent of $16 a month.

    The unit was bare, no more than floor and walls, so the girls, all aspiring actresses, slowly improved it themselves, installing a sink and other modest amenities. While her roommates moved on, O’Grady never left the unit, and for that she received the ultimate New York City prize: unbelievably affordable rent.

    Until March, when O’Grady, 84, was fatally struck by a car just a few feet from her home, she paid $28.43 a month for the apartment.

    “I consulted with an attorney to find out if this rent was possible,” recalls Adam Pomerantz, who bought O’Grady’s building, which also houses his business, Murray’s Bagels, in 2002.

    It was legit, he found, but using a rent-control-formula worksheet, he was able to increase her rent a whopping $1.98 — it had previously been $26.45.​

    “I didn’t even know that [cold-water flats] existed anymore,” Ava Farkas, executive director of the Metropolitan Council on Housing, said in a phone interview, “I think that’s highly, highly rare.” Farkas had not heard of a lower current rent in New York City.

    O’Grady spent her days at the 14th Street YMCA, where she swam, showered, and read the New York Times, friends remember.​

    With O’Grady gone, Pomerantz will be gutting and renovating the apartment, renting it out as a two-bedroom in the $5,000 range.​

  115. 115
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    Can we agree to drop the demeaning term “mansplaining”? In the ecology of my career, explanation for one’s reasoning is very much a relevant data point for everything that a judge listens to, analyzes and uses as the basis for her decision (keep in mind that 9 of 10 of my local family court judges are women, and the demo break is probably 60% female to 40% male of the regular practitioners in Louisville). If someone said “that is mansplaining” in their presence, they’d have some choice phrases to use.

    My youngest daughter uses the term a lot when I either disagree with the way she’s treated her mother/sisters or when I explain why I can’t do something that she wants me to do.

    It is juvenile, and is all too frequently used to shout down due process objections in the public sphere.

  116. 116
    nwerner says:

    @O. Felix Culpa: When you’re part of a serialized program with an ensemble cast, the power is comparable. One visible member controls a large component of the means of production. This wasn’t labor vs. management, it was an internecine dispute among rank and file.

  117. 117
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @nwerner: And there goes everyone’s point flying past your head. Whoosh!

  118. 118
    Mary G says:

    @geg6: @Nicole: @O. Felix Culpa: Preach it, sisters and/or brothers. Also, Mingobat, but I was afraid of four links.

  119. 119
    geg6 says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    But it’s not at all juvenile or shouting down due process objections when men tell women what the women’s experiences are and how they should react to them. That’s just life, I guess.

    Jesus fucking Christ, I’m outta here before I have a stroke.

  120. 120
  121. 121

    @O. Felix Culpa: So much for that assumption. I think it’s genuine.

  122. 122
    germy says:

    WASHINGTON (AP) — The Latest on President Donald Trump canceling his planned summit with North Korea (all times local):

    2:10 p.m.

    Donald Trump’s letter to North Korean leader Kim Jong Un was dictated by the president to his national security adviser, John Bolton.

    That’s according to Republican Sen. Cory Gardner, who met with Bolton at the White House on Thursday, hours after Trump announced he was withdrawing from a planned summit with Kim next month.

  123. 123
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @nwerner: Sorry, the power is not comparable. Scripts can be – and are – rewritten and main characters can suffer untimely deaths and be replaced. It is particularly not comparable for actresses over a certain age, for whom roles are exceedingly rare, especially if they become known as *difficult.*

  124. 124
    Yutsano says:

    @nwerner:

    One visible member controls a large component of the means of production.

    ….
    You have no idea how Hollywood works do you?

    This wasn’t labor vs. management

    Now I’m confused. If it’s worth striking over, who is the actor supposed to strike against anyway? And if it’s a different power dynamic, why bother mentioning that in the context of collective action?

  125. 125
    Mary G says:

    No link, because I don’t have a subscription, but WSJ headline says:

    Roger Stone Sought Information on Clinton from Assange, Emails Show
    Ex-Trump adviser urged intermediary to ask WikiLeaks for specific dates of rival candidate’s communications

    ETA: Bit more attached to this tweet:

    There’s cheeky and then there’s this https://t.co/9hUrbnXO9I pic.twitter.com/D6NOxvrlkk— southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) May 24, 2018

    That has cheered me up.

  126. 126
    GregB says:

    Wall Street Journal had the conspiracy good on Roger Stone.

    The election was stolen. Stolen. Stolen.

  127. 127
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @germy: dictated by the president to his national security adviser, John Bolton.

    I’ll be damned. He must be one of those who practices imitating the Beast’s twitter patterns, cause there were at least two sentences I could hear in that voice.

  128. 128
    Nicole says:

    Can we agree to drop the demeaning term “mansplaining”?

    No.

    Also, where does a mansplainer get water?
    From a well, actually.

  129. 129
    Ruckus says:

    @Brachiator:
    I once had a boss who liked to chew me out in public. And I do mean in public, like at an event that people paid money to get into. The second time he tried that shit, and for something he was totally wrong about, I grabbed his arm and drug him behind closed doors and told him he doesn’t get to do that. I can not imagine a woman getting away with that. I still had to later leave that job because he was a fucking drunk.

  130. 130
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mingobat (f/k/a Karen in GA):

    Gosh, I wonder why men triggered into screaming their heads off in a professional setting aren’t considered too sensitive. Whatever could the reason be?

    Well, but, see, when a man goes into a screaming tantrum, it’s a logical and manly screaming tantrum, unlike what a woman’s totally illogical and irrational screaming tantrum would be.

    And, just to be clear, women bosses shouldn’t be screaming at their subordinates, either, but those women usually get fired pretty quickly once the employees speak up. Funny, that.

  131. 131
    geg6 says:

    @Nicole:

    Heh. ;-)

  132. 132
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:
    Let’s not. Mansplaining is intended to be used for when men try to explain something to woman that she is already well aware of (and the man should be aware she is) such as their own life experiences.

  133. 133
    Nicole says:

    @geg6: I was hoping you’d see that before you left the thread. That makes my day.

  134. 134
    gwangung says:

    @nwerner: HA HA HA HAH HAH!

    Clueless about the entertainment industry, too.

  135. 135

    @Mary G: Cheeky? Is southpaw British? If not using British affectations is just sad.

  136. 136
    VeniceRiley says:

    @ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) : Yeah as soon as I saw the count say the guy sent him cases, I was like… not if you were a woman, dude. If you were a woman, he’d do everything he could to ruin you, likely.

    As for Jessica Walter and Jason Bateman, I am on the side of Walter. The boys came off smelling like they were excusing tambor behavior as WTF NBD and protecting their show. As if his set behavior happens in isolation and like they totally disregarded how he just got effinf fired from Transparent, where he was the damn lead character!
    It should not have been up to Jessica to correct them on air, but good for her. Like … I’M SITTING RIGHT HERE AND I CAN HEAR YOU, DUDE.

    If your on the call sheet and walk out or don’t show, it is highly unprofessional and costs a ton of shoot money. This isn’t a waitressing gig or even a lawyer gig. She’d be toast. You’ll notice Tambor is still minimizing his shit. It’s also noticeable he was accused of worse behavior on the show created by a woman and run by women.

  137. 137
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Mary G:

    How about not having a flippant, catch all term. Everybody gets to say their piece while each party listens respectfully to the complaint of the other. The party that acted like an asshole acknowledges being an asshole, and the party who is aggrieved engages in self-reflection at the scope of their reaction to the behavior and whether it was proportional to the behavior engaged in.

    This current pop psychology notion that “we must all be allowed to wallow in emotional affront to the point of being crippled and incapable of advancing our lives because of it” that seems to be erupting is going to hit some really fucking dark times when people attempt to use it in custody and visitation cases. We work in the world of functional parenting – and #MeToo is not compatible with that.

  138. 138
    Kay says:

    Sarah Sanders says “neither Chief Kelly nor Mr. Flood actually attended the meetings but did make brief remarks before the meetings started to relay the President’s desire for as much openness as possible under the law.”

    Can we get proof of this, please? I’ll need to see time-stamped video of them arriving and then leaving.

    Sanders has consistently lied on this meeting. This is her third different story in 48 hours. We’ll find out this too is a lie in the next 24.

  139. 139
    Mnemosyne says:

    @nwerner:

    When you’re part of a serialized program with an ensemble cast, the power is comparable.

    Oh, honey, no. Now you’re just embarrassing yourself. “Troublesome” actresses have been fired from the shows they were the stars of. And you think an ensemble actress has enough power to stage a one-woman walkout and get things on that set to change?

    You poor dumb bastard.

  140. 140
    stinger says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Nope, sorry. It describes a very specific activity for which there is no other word, and it is the activity that is demeaning. People sometimes misuse the word, sure, just like they often misuse “comprise”.

    I’d be glad for mansplaining to stop happening, but when it happens I’m calling it what it is.

  141. 141
    zhena gogolia says:

    @geg6:

    God, I hate that “ivory tower” b.s. Just like, “So you’re off all summer?”

    Nope, working 7 days a week just like the rest of the time.

  142. 142
    PST says:

    @germy: The landlord can get his car fixed with the first month’s rent check.

  143. 143
    Brachiator says:

    @Ruckus:

    I once had a boss who liked to chew me out in public. And I do mean in public, like at an event that people paid money to get into. The second time he tried that shit, and for something he was totally wrong about, I grabbed his arm and drug him behind closed doors and told him he doesn’t get to do that. I can not imagine a woman getting away with that.

    Yeah, I know what you mean. I know people like that. I do, however, know some women who would have pulled the guy aside, but I absolutely agree that this is not common.

    I often eat at cafes and restaurants, don’t do a lot of home cooking. And as I noted earlier, I guess I give off vibes that I don’t put up with a lot of bullshit. Once, I was distracted from my meal by a manager who was berating an employee about something. Hand to God, I got up went over and said, “Ya know, it’s not cool for you to be disciplining this guy out in front of customers. You should take it in back in private somewhere, and also you would get your point across better if you weren’t so mean.” The guy looked at me for a second as if he were going to tell me to mind my own business, but backed down.

    FWIW, I’ve been known to call a manager over and make a point of noting good service.

  144. 144
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Mnemosyne: One of the (many) things I didn’t like about the Netflix season of AD is that they brought in Kristin Wigg, whose appeal has always escaped me, to play the young Lucille. The assumption seemed to be that her mere presence was funny. I think Jessica Walter is one of the best things about the show, but I could see Wigg being brought in to replace her due to “creative differences”, and it might even have worked with most viewers.

  145. 145
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    How about not having a flippant, catch all term. Everybody gets to say their piece while each party listens respectfully to the complaint of the other.

    You realize that the reason you get called a “mansplainer” is because you have not stopped to listen to the other party but insist on continuing to lecture her about what you think she should do, right?

    Look in the mirror. The next time your daughter says that you’re “mansplaining,” put your hurt feelings aside and take a second to actually LISTEN TO WHAT SHE IS TELLING YOU.

    Stop trying to score points in the argument. She’s your kid. Do her the courtesy of listening to her and attempting to see things from her perspective, not yours.

    Stop dadsplaining. She’s not a child, she’s an adult.

  146. 146
    MattF says:

    Via NYT: Harvey Weinstein, charged with sexual assault, is facing arrest.

  147. 147
  148. 148
    Mary G says:

    Following the NYT debacle, all UK #ArrestedDevelopment interviews scheduled for tomorrow (including my own) have been cancelled. Netflix statement: pic.twitter.com/EgxKGYEAzy— Christopher Hooton (@ChristophHooton) May 24, 2018

  149. 149
    gwangung says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Heh. No.

    But I’m not going to pile on. I’ll just say you’re being an oblivious twit who justifies the term and move on.

  150. 150
    stinger says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Everybody gets to say their piece while each party listens respectfully to the complaint of the other.

    What world do you live in? Mansplaining describes those occasions when the woman has expressed or is trying to express her lived experience, and the man is NOT “listening respectfully” but is instead talking over her and telling her about her life/education/work experience as if HE KNOWS AND SHE DOESN’T. God, I could give a dozen personal examples.

    And now at last there’s a WORD for it.

  151. 151
    eric says:

    @Mnemosyne: i dont think that is what he is saying. I hear him to be suggesting that we all must avoid a reflexive response to any criticism that can actually diminish the power of the critique. So for example, I am not mansplaining his meaning to you even though I am explaining what i think his meaning is to you. I think that is the point being made. Not saying that you are suggesting he is mansplaining.

  152. 152
    WereBear says:

    I had to stop listening to the audio of the interview, I’m supposed to keep my stress down. (I know I know, good luck with that!)

    As a cis-woman, let me tell a story and see if any men chime in with how it happened to them, shall we?

    Back in the day, our new satellite dish offered a gadget to put on the VCR that would let you record off the signal. Usually worked great, but if I did a block of back-to-back comedies on the same channel, I would only get every other one.

    I figured out what was wrong with the programming, fought my way through layers and layers until I got to the actually tech department, where I spoke to the head of programming and design. He apologized, explained they’d been working and working on it, and it was a really tough problem…

    I broke in and told him what was wrong.

    He went on to say that he would get back to all the customers as soon as it was fixed, these things come up and can be difficult…

    I broke in and told him what was wrong. Again.

    He continued to try to apologize and explain and at this point my husband took the phone and, in a MALE voice, told him what was wrong.

    There was this incredible silence and then he went nuts about how that has to be the problem, he’d fix it right away, and sir, we are sending you the very first fixed gadget. And they did.

    I don’t think he even realized a woman had told him the same thing twice. Because he was so used to not hearing anything a woman said.

    The End.

  153. 153
    Nicole says:

    @Mnemosyne: Sending you heart emojis right now.

    In one thead, male commenters have groused that Jessica Walter is being too sensitive about getting yelled at by a coworker and must have lived a sheltered life, and also complaining that the word “mansplaining” should be eliminated because it hurts their feelings. So interesting. Still so determined that the lady-parts-having people should do all their emotional work for them.

    I know, I know, guys. Here, I’ll do it for you so you don’t have to: #notallmen

  154. 154
    raven says:

    stop digging, dopes.

  155. 155
    trollhattan says:

    @Mary G:
    Also known as quattra linki postspikia

  156. 156
    Mary G says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I’ve never told a man who was mansplaining in person that he was, because I don’t think it’s helpful, but I get it CONSTANTLY online and sometimes you get sick of it. Women do it to, but like 1/5000th of the time. And honestly, if you don’t like what I say, pie me. I don’t mind.

  157. 157
    eric says:

    what bothers me is how quickly people say the harshest things to people they otherwise know and like here. Spanking trolls, I get. Even if someone says somethings stupid, we are “friends,” and we should not talk to our friends this way. Even when they, we, or I am wrong.

  158. 158
    raven says:

    @eric: That IS rich.

  159. 159
    zhena gogolia says:

    So this Tambor guy is quite a piece of work, is the message I’m getting.

  160. 160
    eric says:

    @raven: how so?

  161. 161
    raven says:

    @eric: You must be new here.

  162. 162
    Mary G says:

    @raven: heart emoji

  163. 163
    Mike in DC says:

    @Mary G:
    …but sometimes I can feel my blood kinda getting hot…that’s when I’ve got to move, before I get caught…cuz I’m Stone free, to ride the breeze…Stone free, to do what I please…Stone free, I can’t stay…Stone free, got to got to get away!

  164. 164
    Nicole says:

    @eric: Well, actually, Eric (ooh! That’s fun! I see why men looove to do that to ladies!) what he’s saying is that OTHER people should not have knee-jerk reactions to HIS criticisms, and should, instead, take them in and give them proper weight because he said them.

    What I would suggest, instead, is perhaps, not making the criticism or the comment in the first place, if it has to do with the female experience and one is not a female. I know that seems unfair, because males like to talk a lot, but, for example, when I, as a white person, hear someone who is black say something is racist, I no longer (because I was once an asshole about these things) volunteer, “Well, actually, what that white person meant was” because I’m not black and it has been pointed out to me that someone who has grown up black in America has a much better sense of what is racist than I do. And the way it was pointed out to me was, “How do you feel when something is said that you know was sexist and a guy tells you it wasn’t really sexist; you’re just too sensitive?”

    So, most of the time I am just quiet and I listen and it’s amazing, I usually learn something and that’s good. And sometimes I still screw up and talk when I should listen, but I no longer dismiss and get upset. Even if I get called a Becky, which does hurt my feelings because being stereotyped is hurtful. I think that’s why so many (mostly white) men hate the term “mansplaining.” Because it stereotypes them and they’re not used to that.

  165. 165
    eric says:

    @raven: ah, lol. no. I have been here a while and it has always bothered me. I get that sometimes people are cantankerous by nature, or are mutual antagonists and that people can disagree. For fuck sake, some people here talk nicer about Tom Nichols than there compatriots here.

  166. 166
    Peale says:

    Apparently no one has heard of Primal Therapy any longer. Return to the Womb, Return to the Womb. That’s all I’m saying on that controversy.

  167. 167
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Brachiator:

    For years, I’d used one particular dive shop when I went to Key West. It was generally inconvenient to where we stayed, but I’m one of those customers that stays with the known. I got my kids verified there and had probably spent $9000 there, in aggregate – and between me and my wife, had probably referred another $10,000 in business there. We’d had a middling time the last trip; the owners – a man and a woman – had kept a sullen, boring, disinterested captain around past the point where anybody else would have fired him. We hadn’t been fond of him in the past, but they had a few other captains, so he hadn’t been on all the time. This particular week, we got the jackass every day.

    Anyway, I had retrieved our personal gear at the end of the week and was interested in buying some stuff. The woman had the staff at the counter, loudly berating them over some incredibly petty bullshit over recordkeeping on reservations while I uncomfortably looked at shirts, not wanting to be noticed or to embarrass anybody. One of the employees (a really sweet guy who died from a heart attack diving the Vandenburg several months later) spotted me, and quietly said “there’s a customer in the store”. She jumped him for interrupting her, said she knew I was there, added “so what” and continued her tirade.

    I didn’t buy the stuff I wanted and left. I’ve not been back, and have referred nobody to the shop.

  168. 168
    eric says:

    @Nicole: my point is: I know him and I know you from posting here. I take it all in. I dont think the worst of him or you. Even if he is tone deaf, I can deal with that while engaging him. From what I can tell posting here, he is not a serial offender demeaning women and their opinions. He may very well be mansplaining, and your post helps me to see that. I come here because I value the opinions of the people that post. I fight with people every day for a living, i try to turn that off when i am here.

  169. 169
    Nicole says:

    @WereBear: Oh, I had one of those too! We needed to get out of our lease early, and, because I handle all of that stuff in our household, I was the one tasked with going to the real estate office to find out what, if anything, we could do. They WOULD NOT return my calls, they talked to me like I was a child, blah blah blah. They would, however, return my husband’s calls, even though the calls were, “(question from them)” Husband: “Uh, hang on; let me call my wife and find out” and then he would call me and I would answer the question and he would call them back.

    It was almost worth it for when I tracked them down at the shady, creepy office they hid out in, and they completely FREAKED (New York City landlords, what can I say), but I finally threw in the towel and had the husband deal with it so they’d actually you know, let it get done.

  170. 170
    raven says:

    @eric: You better hope eemom don’t show up!

  171. 171
    Mary G says:

    Clip from NYT reporter Matt Apuzzo on why the story that “FBI sees no links with Russia” was not wrong, just maybe “framed” wrong.

    Here’s the clip https://t.co/vyHLNSs5kj— Michael Calderone (@mlcalderone) May 24, 2018

    Dog ate my homework, or “I need this agent to keep talking to me more than I need to tell my readers the truth” level.

  172. 172
    eric says:

    @raven: LOLOL…..fair point

  173. 173
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Mary G:

    Nah, I like you. Besides, I never pie anybody, not even Jurassic Pork.

  174. 174
    raven says:

    @Nicole: When I got divorced the phone company wouldn’t let my ex change her number without my permission. That went over really well.

  175. 175
    Mnemosyne says:

    @eric:

    I hear him to be suggesting that we all must avoid a reflexive response to any criticism that can actually diminish the power of the critique.

    I hear him saying that he’s having trouble with his adult daughter because he isn’t stopping to listen to her respectfully and instead keeps plowing forward until she gets frustrated and accuses him of mansplaining things to her.

    IMO, he’s actually dadsplaining, which is in itself a hard habit to break, but she probably isn’t able to come up with that word when she’s pissed off at him for not listening to what she’s saying. Similar to mansplaining, but comes from a different place.

  176. 176
    eric says:

    @raven: opposing lawyers treat my female colleague differently than they treat me and she is every bit as smart and as capable as I am. I have seen (female) judges do it. Gender type casting is very real

  177. 177
    WereBear says:

    @Nicole: I know! It’s like they have a filter; I toyed with pitching my voice deeper the next time I had to talk to a mechanic on the phone.

    Because admittedly I know nothing about cars, but my first husband could diagnose just from listening to the engine. So I would bring the car in, tell them what was wrong, and they’d be all “haw haw” until I came back and had them tell me what had been wrong. Which was always exactly what I had told them.

  178. 178
    HeleninEire says:

    Had a HUGE comment eaten by WP. Will report again tomorrow when for my first vote as an Irish citizen I voted YES repeal the 8th.

  179. 179
    eric says:

    @Mnemosyne: fair point. Is it different that momsplaining, or are dads particularly prone to it. (asked sincerely) I try very hard not to ‘splain to my daughter. How is different that just being the authority laying down the law? The battle is to honor her agency, but protecting her from her agency. Is it just a constant battle to hear oneself?

  180. 180
    elm says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Catch-all? No.

    Mansplaining refers to a very specific and very common behavior.

  181. 181
    raven says:

    @eric: My drill sergeant treated us all the same.

  182. 182
    Mary G says:

    @eric: To me, that’s a feature, not a bug. I am not good at snark, but I love it and there are some masters of the art here. I’ve learned a lot here from people who’ve told me I am wrong, and not having to be all nice and polite all the time is relaxing. I can tell the difference from what someone on Balloon Juice says from someone being nasty. But that’s just me. I’ve never pied anyone, but there are names I’ll scroll by without reading because they usually just are GFY in more words.

  183. 183
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    Why, this very afternoon I had a master of the universe finance guy mansplain to me why my mere CPA retired executive self approached an analytical problem all wrong, even though it happens to be my area of expertise and we came to similar answers, just from different perspectives. It. Just. Doesn’t. Stop.

  184. 184
    Nicole says:

    @eric: I agree with you; I don’t think he’s a bad egg, either and I generally really enjoy his comments; it’s just that patriarchy is in the very marrow of our society, such that oodles of perfectly nice, perfectly good guys indulge in misogyny all the time and don’t realize it. Same with racial prejudice; it’s in the marrow, too. I spent Tuesday night at a public meeting about very minor changes being proposed to better integrate our horrifically segregated school districts, and plenty of parents, who, I am sure, would never in a million years, intend to say anything prejudiced, said some pretty awful things. Unfortunately, no one was able in that situation to call them out on it. We’re fighting stuff we’ve been told, in a million ways, is normal, “the way things are,” and some of the ways we fight against that may seem silly and petty, but they do make a difference.

  185. 185
    Brachiator says:

    @Mary G:

    I’ve never told a man who was mansplaining in person that he was, because I don’t think it’s helpful, but I get it CONSTANTLY online and sometimes you get sick of it.

    Absolutely true story. I’m at the movies and I hear a guy explaining Chinese cinema to a woman. I turn around and it’s a white guy explaining movies to his Chinese American girl friend. And from other things said, it is clear that this woman was born in and grew up in Hong Kong.

    Variation, and here gender is only part of the problem. I’m listening to a podcast in which a guy is talking about how much he loves anime, and the common themes in the work of Hayao Miyazaki. This is mainly a program hosted by computer and SF nerds, male and female. At some point it becomes clear that this guy knows nothing about Japanese culture, has never been to Japan, has not seen many Japanese films, has not read much about anime and of course does not speak Japanese. But he somehow thinks that brute force logic and affection for the genre makes him knowledgeable.

  186. 186
    Nicole says:

    @raven: Oh gadzooks, I’m sorry. I imagine that was no fun for either one of you.

  187. 187
    eric says:

    @Nicole: this post is the bat-signal for male marxists to post that class is the real divider of humanity. ;)

    ETA….i agree with you

  188. 188
    raven says:

    @Nicole: We were cool by the time it got finalized.

  189. 189
    stinger says:

    @HeleninEire: Can’t wait to read your comment. Fingers crossed for repeal!

  190. 190
    Nicole says:

    @eric: That’s a good question- momsplaining vs. dadsplaining. I would say, probably the best things parents can do is also shut up and listen first, and then honestly present their point of view. But listen first. We don’t like to, because it takes time and effort, but hey, we’re the parent; it’s on us to make the effort.

    Giving them agency where you can helps, too. I keep having to relearn that one.

  191. 191
    Nicole says:

    @eric: Ha! That literally made me LOL. And makes me sad (but not in a terrible way)- my dad died right before the PA primary, but he was planning on voting for Bernie Sanders, and, I swear, it’s because he just couldn’t handle the idea of a woman as President. Never, ever would have expected it of him. Marrow of society, I tell ya.

  192. 192
    ruemara says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Stop doing it and then we can dispense with the term.

    @eric: Christ on a cracker.

    GUYS, STOP FUCKING DIGGING.

  193. 193
    Mary G says:

    @eric: If you listen to her reasons, repeat them back to her, and say I get why you think that, but no, here’s why, that is not mansplaining. It’s explaining. Perfectly parental. Mnem is right that it is the not being listened to, or considered a person with knowledge and expertise, that is infuriating.

  194. 194
    Leto says:

    @raven: Mine did too. Common theme throughout all indoc training programs in the military.

  195. 195
    Nicole says:

    @raven: That’s good to hear. My husband is on good terms with his ex-wife, which makes me glad. She seems like a pretty decent human being.

  196. 196
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Nicole:

    Also, where does a mansplainer get water?
    From a well, actually.

    🤣

  197. 197
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @ruemara: Thank you.

  198. 198
    eric says:

    @Mary G: understood and appreciated.

  199. 199
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes, actors have limited power and sometimes even male actors get cut for bad behavior.https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/people/2018/05/15/lethal-weapon-damon-wayans-clayne-crawford-twitter-lance-henriksen/610487002/

  200. 200
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    It’s a solid ding. LOL

  201. 201
    raven says:

    @Nicole: Oh this was years ago and we didn’t have kids. That makes it a whole different ball of wax.

  202. 202
    stinger says:

    @Betty Cracker: I only just now got that! I’m glad you responded!

  203. 203
    trollhattan says:

    A PSA: when confronting a griz, fight like a girl.

    Thank you.

  204. 204
    Yutsano says:

    @HeleninEire: WOOT!!! Read an article heavily biased towards the no side showing it’s more or less an urban/rural divide. The seeking out of nos among demographic outliers was sickening, like younger urban dwellers and whatnot. Of course I also know my opinion here so…

  205. 205
    Mnemosyne says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S):

    Gotta love how the dude spun paying a settlement to one of the people he injured as “sharing a sizeable part of [his] paycheck.” Dayum. Either he’s been doing this for years and never got called on it, or the power of being a network TV show co-star and director went to his head. Probably both.

  206. 206
    WereBear says:

    @YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S): It’s tremendous pressure; millions of dollars, lots of other people’s jobs, careers on the line, and for things that are not like making a circle with a protractor. Part of the job is meshing with others, and sometimes people are demanded to mesh too much because someone else is getting much more slack.

    Nicol Williamson, I understand, was brilliant. Not just his acting, but understanding the script and breaking it down for others involved. But he was just as difficult, and it couldn’t be sustained.

  207. 207
    Mary G says:

    @Yutsano:

    Irish women who have come #hometovote arriving at Dublin airport. pic.twitter.com/jTMm1xg9a1— Laura Silver (@laurafleur) May 24, 2018

  208. 208
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @rikyrah: Someone suggested that the NFL players who are protesting police brutality by kneeling should also become more political and encourage citizens to vote. Their movement would be more powerful and meaningful. Trump has obviously turned this into an “us versus them” fight where he gets to play the patriot and call out the players for “disrespecting the troops”. Sigh.

  209. 209
    chopper says:

    well, this thread is shittier than i was expecting out of this place.

  210. 210
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    The next time your daughter accuses you of mansplaining, I want to you respond, “I’m not mansplaining, I’m dadsplaining!” and report back. She’s either going to laugh or punch you, and I’m curious which one it will be. 🤔

  211. 211
    Yutsano says:

    @chopper: Make sure you write to our bloghost to complain about the atmosphere and request a refund of your user fee. Make sure to use all caps. He LIVES for that shit.

    @Mary G: Huh. No overseas balloting eh? Good that they came home to make their voices heard!

  212. 212
    HeleninEire says:

    @stinger: @Yutsano:

    Yes it will be REPEAL.

  213. 213
    NotMax says:

    @Brachiator

    Mustn’t forget French actress Simone Simon (Cat People</em).

    Or the musician/composer/bandleader Dick Hyman.

  214. 214
    Mnemosyne says:

    @WereBear:

    Most of the time, when a (usually male) actor is brilliant in several films and then suddenly vanishes, it’s because he was an asshole that nobody wanted to work with because life’s too short. Think Mickey Rourke, Val Kilmer, etc.

    Now think about how much ordinary shit other actors get away with and realize just how awful working with them must be.

  215. 215
    Yarrow says:

    @HeleninEire: Congratulations on your first vote! I just heard about that on the radio yesterday when the BBC interviewed two women–one for and one against. I didn’t know until then they were even voting on it. Very interested in hearing how it goes.

  216. 216
    MattF says:

    @Mnemosyne: MIckey Rourke is sort of a special case. He’s one of those ‘Famous in France‘ actors.

  217. 217
    NotMax says:

    Shocked, shocked.

    President Donald Trump earned $107,186 last year from the LLC behind TrumpStore.com, a website for Trump-branded merchandise, USA Today reported Thursday.
    [snip]
    For a week, the Trump Organization refused to acknowledge that T Retail LLC was behind TrumpStore.com. The company acknowledged the link after USA Today published its story. Source

  218. 218
    chopper says:

    @Yutsano:

    PS I AM NOT A CRACKPOT

    but seriously, disappointing.

  219. 219
    Mnemosyne says:

    @MattF:

    Darren Aronofsky tried to rehabilitate Rourke with The Wrestler and even got him an Oscar nomination, but it didn’t work because Rourke was still the same asshole he’d always been.

  220. 220
    satby says:

    @eric: well, I’m a female and I’m agreeing with you. For what that’s worth.
    As to what started this whole meshugas, I’m taking the fifth. The entire “delicate flowers of personhood” going on now just…
    I don’t know.
    But it seems we’re hanging pretty close to the top of Maslow’s pyramid.

  221. 221
    Nicole says:

    @Betty Cracker: 😀 and you know, I have to give my husband credit for being the first person to tell it to me.

  222. 222
    debit says:

    @Mnemosyne: He was utterly brilliant in Angelheart, I thought.

  223. 223
    geg6 says:

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    I get this kind of thing all the time from fathers regarding financing their kids’ college. I’ll explain the options, what we consider the best ones and why. Most respect my expertise. But a fairly large number kinda dismiss me, ask to speak to my boss and get the exact explanation from him, an explanation I taught him because HE IS NOT AN EXPERT IN STUDENT AID OR FINANCING AND I AM. Thankfully, my boss is super good and always says that they should be talking to me because I’m the expert.

  224. 224
    Nicole says:

    @raven: truth. My husband‘s first marriage didn’t have kids either. Although, one of my childhood friend’s parents split up years back and I see that they’re friends on Facebook and frequently like and comment on each other‘s posts. It’s nice to see.

  225. 225
    MisterForkbeard says:

    I can’t read through this whole thread, but I will say that Jason Bateman’s apology was excellent. Exactly what we want out of people who are in the wrong. “I was trying to do this one thing, and I completely fucked it up both in terms of intent and execution” is a good summary.

  226. 226
    Brachiator says:

    @NotMax:

    Mustn’t forget French actress Simone Simon (Cat People).

    Or the musician/composer/bandleader Dick Hyman.

    Yes! Added to my internal list.

  227. 227
    Mnemosyne says:

    @satby:

    Jeffrey Tambor just got fired for his abusive behavior on the set of “Transparent,” a show that he was the star of. If Jessica Walter says he acted abusively towards her on the set of the show she was on with him, I tend to believe her and to think that the dudes downplaying Tambor’s behavior are assholes.

  228. 228
    ruemara says:

    @Brachiator: I once had a (white) woman explain Jamaican culture to me. I am jamaican & she had stayed in Jamaica for a month & slept with a (white) rasta for while. People are… interesting. And the responses from some here… well, it does explain why women don’t talk about it much.

    Edited to reflect that Morgan Freeman has now joined the cast of SQUICK men. Wow.

  229. 229
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @satby:

    As to what started this whole meshugas, I’m taking the fifth. The entire “delicate flowers of personhood” going on now just…
    I don’t know.

    There was a lot unsaid in the original article, but this episode (or perhaps episodes, but it sounds like one in particular) was extreme, so out of the ordinary that it was remembered by the people present. It made an impression. He admitted to blowing up at others, and yet this one sticks out. I don’t think this was a delicate flower reaction.

  230. 230
    WereBear says:

    @Mnemosyne: I understand this was one of the reasons Boris Karloff broke through and worked until his death, while Bela Lugosi languished even after Ed Wood came along.

    There was a difference in talent, but they were both huge stars. The biggest difference was that Karloff was a sweetheart, and Lugosi… was not.

  231. 231
    satby says:

    @Mnemosyne: and I didn’t say I didn’t believe Walter or that she or anyone is overreacting.

    I just haven’t got much for this debate.
    Edit: I was a bit unclear, the “delicate flowers” was a reference to how this is such a social change. Not specifically about Tambor’s tantrum.

  232. 232
    Roger Moore says:

    OT, related to the big 8 meeting today:

    Emmet Flood’s presence and statement at the outset of both meetings today was completely inappropriate, and I told him so. It only underscores what Rudy Giuliani said: the President’s legal team expects to improperly obtain and use such information for their defense.— Adam Schiff (@RepAdamSchiff) May 24, 2018

    Nice to see somebody on the Democratic side isn’t going to take Trump’s shit.

  233. 233
    NotMax says:

    Paving the road to ruination.

    Trump’s auto tariff threat could trigger global chaos, critics charge

    Exactly what the White House might have in mind is uncertain, though reports quickly begin circulating, citing unnamed administration sources, that tariffs on auto imports could jump as high as 25 percent. That would be a tenfold increase on the 2.5 percent duties currently in place — with the exception of the 25 percent “chicken tax” on imported pickup trucks that is a holdover of a decades-old trade dispute with Europe over American poultry.
    [snip]
    Earlier talk of tariff increases were scuttled under pressure from the auto industry and, in particular, car dealers. Foreign automakers, who already have invested tens of billions of dollars in U.S. plants, were also voicing opposition.

    John Bozzella, CEO of Global Automakers, which represents foreign automakers doing business in the U.S. and some domestic parts suppliers, criticized the latest threat, calling it “a bad day for American consumers.”

    “The U.S. auto industry is thriving and growing. Thirteen, soon to be 14 companies, produced nearly 12 million cars and trucks in America last year,” Bozzella said, referencing the soon-to-open Volvo plant in South Carolina. “To our knowledge, no one is asking for this protection. This path leads inevitably to fewer choices and higher prices for cars and trucks in America.” Source

    Rs in Congress are not amused.

    Republican senators are scrambling to squash President Trump’s floated tariffs on imported vehicles amid a growing fight between Congress and the White House on trade.

    Several GOP senators — including Sen. Orrin Hatch (Utah), the chairman of the Finance Committee — warned on Thursday that the administration’s proposed plan would backfire by negatively impacting American families.
    [snip]
    GOP Sen. Pat Toomey (Pa.), a consistent Trump ally, added that the tariffs are a “bad idea” and that “doing it under the false pretense of national security–Section 232–is an even worse idea, as it invites retaliation and weakens our credibility on actual trade disputes.”

    The backlash from congressional Republicans comes after Trump, on Wednesday, asked the Commerce Department to investigate whether he could levy upward of 25 percent tariffs on imported automobiles under Section 232 of trade law.
    [snip]
    Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) said the floated tariffs appear “to be either an attempt to affect domestic politics ahead of the election or for some other transactional purpose regarding ongoing trade discussions.”

    “I am very concerned about the president abusing the authorities granted to him in Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962,” he added. “This is a dangerous course and should be abandoned immediately.”

    The blowback from the potential auto tariffs comes less than a day after Ross and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin met with a group of GOP senators. … Source

  234. 234
    TenguPhule says:

    @NotMax:

    Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) said the floated tariffs appear “to be either an attempt to affect domestic politics ahead of the election or for some other transactional purpose regarding ongoing trade discussions.”

    “I am very concerned about the president abusing the authorities granted to him in Section 232 of the Trade Expansion Act of 1962,” he added. “This is a dangerous course and should be abandoned immediately.”

    “I will of course, not actually do anything meaningful to stop this. Just wave my finger and tut tut endlessly.”, Corker failed to mention.

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    Mary G says:

    @NotMax: Looks like the rats may see the ship taking on water.

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    debbie says:

    @nwerner:

    I would think that walking off the job would force the issue more than suffering in silence for years.

    Neither would force the issue. The only way to force the issue is to speak up and speak out.

    I’ll say one more thing before repairing to my evening walk. No one gets to determine what someone else feels is abuse. Sorry if the term “mansplaining” seems offensive. It is meant to be offensive because the actual ‘splaining is condescending and trivializing.

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    TenguPhule says:

    @Mary G:

    Looks like the rats may see the ship taking on water.

    The GOP will rearrange the deck chairs, nothing more.

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    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Probably a punch.

    Her mom gets told she’s gaslighting. I try and remain uninvolved until those two get into it.

  239. 239

    @ruemara: I have had that experience more than once, on Balloon Juice too, when people try to explain to me what karma means and how women are treated in India.
    How is your citizenship application coming along?

  240. 240
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Roger Moore: Schiff and his House Intel colleagues general haven’t taken much shit. I don’t know why the American people are taking it. It genuinely baffles me.

    I typed out a plaintive and mostly rhetorical comment on how Flood’s conduct must be violating some kind of ethical standard, but I guess the President’s lawyer falls under the same standard/rule as the President and the Justice Department: The only possible check on their conduct is Congress, and Congress is just gonna sit on their thumbs.

    ETA: I did hear someone MSNBC say that Flood might well find himself under Meuller’s scrutiny as part of an illegal conspiracy. IANAL, but I hope this is the case. This is so gross.

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    gbbalto says:

    @Brachiator: Did that once, asked waiter to call manager, told them that the food and service was excellent, got a free cigar!

  242. 242
    Gbbalto says:

    Cannot edit on android. Bad. That was back in the day when that was acceptable. Point is to recognize excellent servers in front of their managers. Also tip 20%.

  243. 243
    Gbbalto says:

    Cannot edit on android. Bad. That was back in the day when that was acceptable. Point is to recognize excellent servers in front of managers.

  244. 244
    ruemara says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I am procrastinating quite effectively. I’ve finished most of the paper application, I just need to drop in my A number & my bio mom’s A number. Or citizen thingy? Then I plan to avoid the whole mess while dithering regarding the tax dept & then asking my parents to put up something to confirm they’re planning on paying for the thing. Like say, an organ.

  245. 245
    Mary G says:

    It’s literally a firehose of news these days:

    NEWS: Head of the US federal prison system has resigned after 9 months on the job to protest meddling and flouting of "departmental norms" by AG Jeff Sessions and Jared Kushner. Me and @danielle_ivory https://t.co/fU17prgqOz— Glenn Thrush (@GlennThrush) May 24, 2018

  246. 246
    satby says:

    @debbie:

    No one gets to determine what someone else feels is abuse.

    People can feel they’ve been abused when they have not been. It’s not an absolute; nothing with human beings ever is.
    Edit: and before you disagree, I give you exhibit A, in the Oval Office.

  247. 247
    Brachiator says:

    @ruemara:

    I once had a (white) woman explain Jamaican culture to me. I am jamaican & she had stayed in Jamaica for a month & slept with a (white) rasta for while. People are… interesting. And the responses from some here… well, it does explain why women don’t talk about it much.

    I am not perfect. But I’ve known too many wise women, my mother, all my great aunts, my sister. It never made any sense to me to think that women were ever lesser.

    Edited to reflect that Morgan Freeman has now joined the cast of SQUICK men. Wow.

    I had heard some things, hoped they were not true. Sad. I mentioned watching “The Electric Company” with my younger brother. Morgan Freeman, who was a character on that show, helped my brother tremendously in encouraging him to learn, providing easy to digest lessons. And this was before I got into Freeman as a movie actor.

  248. 248
    Raven says:

    @ruemara: I went to Negril in 1972, what a place it was then!

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    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @satby: And yet there is such a thing as abuse. I know it from the inside. From where I sit, the experience of the abused is worsened by those who discount it.

  250. 250
    satby says:

    @O. Felix Culpa: I never said there wasn’t actually abuse. I’m very aware from personal experience that there is. And that there’s also accusations of abuse that are not, also from personal experience. People are messy.
    See, I should never have said anything in the first place.
    And FUCK I hate trying to comment from my Kindle now.

  251. 251
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @satby: I understand. I am also aware of cases where abuse is falsely claimed or assumed. We do need to be able to differentiate and on that we agree. :)

  252. 252
    debbie says:

    @satby:

    I agree with what you’re saying. Of course there are false claims, but the person feeling abused has the right to speak up and either be validated or proven wrong.

  253. 253
    Mary G says:

    @satby: @O. Felix Culpa: It does happen that people lie. Shaun King just had to rewrite a post about a woman claiming a police officer sexually assaulted her. The police produced the video, which aside from blurring her name for privacy, shows no such conduct. This is another example of why body cams for cops work. It protects cops from false claims.

    ETA: This is one reason I was so pissed off about Al Franken. You can believe or not believe, but no action should’ve been taken without due process.

  254. 254
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Her mom gets told she’s gaslighting. I try and remain uninvolved until those two get into it.

    Given some of the stuff you’ve said about your wife/her mom in the past, I wouldn’t discount the possibility that she is sometimes gaslighting your kid without you realizing it. Mild NPD is still NPD.

    But IANA therapist, so I should probably stop harassing you.

  255. 255
    Mnemosyne says:

    @satby:

    “Delicate flowers” tends to get read as saying that women need to toughen up and stop whining about little things like having their coworkers scream abuse at them, so that’s why you were getting that reaction.

    As I said, given that there are other documented episodes where Tambor did this, I tend to believe Walter over the others.

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    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @Gbbalto: This thread may be dead, but in testing for M4 in the next thread I used the edit function on my Android with Chrome.

  257. 257
    Jake the antisoshul soshulist says:

    @stinger:
    I had a boss who had no “people skill”. He wasn’t a screamer, but was very sarcastic and dismissive of others. He was fair in the sense that he treated everyone the same way.
    Finally, several people called HR hotline to complain about him. He lost his position, but did stay with the company in a non managerial position.
    The ironic thing was that he felt betrayed because he thought he treated everyone so well.

  258. 258

    @ruemara: Send it in. Do it now.

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    Ruckus says:

    @eric:
    Didn’t read all the way down to see if this had been answered but the real problem is that people do not respect others up front. Supposedly one has to earn respect. Except if everyone always has to earn respect how would anyone know what the rules of respect are, seeing as how we are all a shade of different. That’s not even accounting for color or genitalia. So very few get any respect at all and that makes life fucking difficult.
    You ask about dadsplaining/momsplaining and that generally happens because parents often don’t give their children any respect as individuals, they are considered property and have to be cared for. Kids don’t have the same legal rights as adults but they are individuals and deserve respect. When they don’t get that, they learn to treat others the same way. But really this is how respect works for everyone. You respect others until they prove they don’t deserve it. And in this country, and many others, females, a huge percentage of the time, don’t get respect from men. In this country people of color, a huge percentage of the time, don’t get respect from whites. Actually it’s often a lot worse than just a lack of respect, it’s outright hate, because they are female or not white or both.

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