Rudy Giuliani Needs To Sit Down With Rudy Giuliani So They Can Get Rudy Giuliani’s Story Straight!

The Mayor of 9-11 has some major issues. First among them is his mouth appears to be disconnected from his short and long term memory! Yesterday NBC reported that Rudy Giuliani told them that Special Counsel Mueller told him that the President can’t be indicted because of the 1970s DOJ Office of Legal Counsel guidance.*

Special counsel Robert Mueller’s office has told President Donald Trump’s legal team that he won’t indict a sitting president, according to Rudy Giuliani, one of Trump’s lawyers.

“They (the special counsel’s office) acknowledge the fact that they can’t indict us,” Giuliani told NBC News on Wednesday, indicating that the information had been conveyed to Trump’s lawyers. “They know they don’t have that power. So their function is to write a report. We would like it to be the fairest report possible. But even if it isn’t, we’re prepared to rebut it in great detail, so we’d like them to do it.”

He added: “It’s as clear as can be that they don’t have the right to indict under the Justice Department rules. And I know they’re not going to indict.”

Unfortunately for Rudy Giuliani, Rudy Giuliani then told the Washington Post that Rudy Giuliani wasn’t actually at the meeting.

Let’s just emphasize the important news that Rudy Giuliani broke about Rudy Giuliani to Robert Costa in the transcripts that Costa posted in his tweet above – click it to embiggen the top right side of the transcript, which I’ve transcribed below for your convenience (emphasis mine):

The Washington Post: Did Mueller explicitly say he would not charge the President?

Giuliani: “He didn’t say that. One of his – I have to check with Jay, he’s in Israel right now. One of his top people told him that.

So according to Rudy Giuliani, who was clarifying to The Washington Post what Rudy Giuliani told NBC News, one of Mueller’s top people told Jay Sekulow, whose currently in Israel, that Special Counsel Mueller would not charge the President. Rudy Giuliani has now further muddied Rudy Giuliani’s messaging up by explaining that Rudy Giuliani doesn’t actually know what was specifically said because it was said to Jay Sekulow who is in Israel, but whatever it was it wasn’t said by Special Counsel Mueller himself.

Unfortunately, Rudy Giuliani who has now explained that Rudy Giuliani does not actually know what happened at this meeting between the Special Counsel and some of his personnel and Jay Sekulow because Jay Sekulow is in Israel and Rudy Giuliani was not there did not get with Rudy Giuliani who decided to further clarify Rudy Giuliani’s clarification of Rudy Giuliani’s statement that the Special Counsel told Rudy Giuliani directly that he couldn’t prosecute the President. Take it away Talking Points Memo!

He didn’t seem to want to give the answer,” Giuliani told the Post. “It reminded me of that scene in ‘The Godfather,’ with Sonny and the Godfather, where he said, ‘Oh, you’re going to take care of us? We can take care of ourselves.’ One of his assistants broke in and said, ‘Well of course, we’re bound by Justice Department policies.’ Mueller looked at him like, ‘Don’t interrupt me.’”

In case everyone has, like the various Rudy Giulianis, lost the plot here, let me summarize:

  1. Rudy Giuliani told NBC News that Special Counsel Mueller told him directly that he could not prosecute the President because of the 1970s guidance from the Office of Legal Counsel.
  2. Rudy Giuliani, in an attempt to clarify what Rudy Giuliani told NBC News, told The Washington Post that he doesn’t actually know what Special Counsel Mueller or his personnel told Jay Sekulow and he can’t find out because Jay is in Israel.
  3. Rudy Giuliani, in an attempt to sound tough and make Special Counsel Mueller look bad, as well as further clarify Rudy Giuliani’s clarification to The Washington Post of Rudy Giuliani’s (who comes from a family that was mobbed up) statement to NBC News, stated that Bob Mueller (who brought down John Gotti) is like an Italian mafioso from a movie.

According to The Washington Post:

A spokesman for the special counsel declined to comment.

Everybody clear?

Open thread!

* Neal Katyal who wrote the existing guidelines for DOJ Special Counsels had this to say about the 1970s Office of Legal Counsel guidance:

“This old opinion from 20 years ago does preclude, in general, the Justice Department from indicting a sitting president for constitutional reasons,” Katyal said. “But an exception can be given.”

Katyal repeated Wednesday that the rules “permit Mueller to depart from DOJ policy.”

Referring to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosentein, who is acting as attorney general in the context of the Russia investigation because Attorney General Jeff Sessions recused himself, Katyal said on MSNBC’s “All In With Chris Hayes”: “The way to do this is to ask the acting attorney general, so he does have a way forward.”

While I’m sure everyone will have fun with this in the comments, there really is no settled law on this. As a political scientist and criminologist I understand all three of the major legal theories/positions on this, and definitely have my own view on which is right, as well as why the OLC memo was written the way it was written during Watergate. That said, I expect that Special Counsel Mueller will play everything straight based on his career as a Federal prosecutor and Director of the FBI. Regardless, we will just have to wait and see.

239 replies
  1. 1
    TenguPhule says:

    First among them is his mouth appears to be disconnected from his short and long term memory!

    There is still an element of doubt about this?

  2. 2
    TenguPhule says:

    So according to Rudy Giuliani, who was clarifying to The Washington Post what Rudy Giuliani told NBC News, one of Mueller’s top people told Jay Sekulow, whose currently in Israel, that Special Counsel Mueller would not charge the President. Rudy Giuliani has now further muddied Rudy Giuliani’s messaging up by explaining that Rudy Giuliani doesn’t actually know what was specifically said because it was said to Jay Sekulow who is in Israel, but whatever it was it wasn’t said by Special Counsel Mueller himself.

    Unfortunately, Rudy Giuliani who has now explained that Rudy Giuliani does not actually know what happened at this meeting between the Special Counsel and some of his personnel and Jay Sekulow because Jay Sekulow is in Israel and Rudy Giuliani was not there did not get with Rudy Giuliani who decided to further clarify Rudy Giuliani’s clarification of Rudy Giuliani’s statement that the Special Counsel told Rudy Giuliani directly that he couldn’t prosecute the President.

    This is a Mel Brooks film tribute taken to the point of complete absurdity.

  3. 3
    kindness says:

    TrumpCo is all in on the Chaos Theory covering their asses for everything looks like.

  4. 4
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TenguPhule: Thank you. I’ve been thinking through how to do this justice all day. You don’t find this type of bespoke, Mel Brooksian tribute snark on just any blog or website.

  5. 5
    LAO says:

    Rudy is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad defense attorney. That is all.

  6. 6
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman: The only other thing that comes immediately to mind is the Court Jester’s classic:

    “Hawkins: I’ve got it! I’ve got it! The pellet with the poison’s in the vessel with the pestle; the chalice from the palace has the brew that is true! Right?

    Griselda: Right. But there’s been a change: they broke the chalice from the palace!

    Hawkins: They *broke* the chalice from the palace?

    Griselda: And replaced it with a flagon.

    Hawkins: A flagon…?

    Griselda: With the figure of a dragon.

    Hawkins: Flagon with a dragon.

    Griselda: Right.

    Hawkins: But did you put the pellet with the poison in the vessel with the pestle?

    Griselda: No! The pellet with the poison’s in the flagon with the dragon! The vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true!

    Hawkins: The pellet with the poison’s in the flagon with the dragon; the vessel with the pestle has the brew that is true.

    Griselda: Just remember that.”

  7. 7
    dmsilev says:

    I suspect that if Mueller came across as a character from a Mafia movie, it would be this one:

    Mr 9/11? You can have my answer now, if you like. My final offer is this: nothing. Not even the fee for the gaming license, which I would appreciate if you would put up personally.

  8. 8
    LAO says:

    I’m just just going throw this out here:

    Law enforcement sources tell me Rudy Giuliani was just involved in a minor accident in midtown, at 49th & 8th. Opened passenger door, hit pedicab. No injuries.— Alex Silverman (@AlexSilverman) May 17, 2018

  9. 9
    Ella in New Mexico says:

    I think Goooliani is trying to make a Hail Mary defense case that Trump has been so sabotaged by incompetent council who have essentially plead guilty for him that it would be impossible to ever get a fair hearing–in an impeachment or in a court– on his criminal activities and thus should not be held accountable for them. Only reasonable explanation because we simply cannot be so lucky as to have his behaviors as Trump’s legal counsel be as stupid and miscalculated as they appear to be.

    Plus I’m guessing he’s trying to soften the upcoming whams on the head with a cast iron skillet Trump cult worshipers being nourished daily watching Fox are going to be getting soon…by floating to them Trump actually did do everything he’s been saying is Fake News.

  10. 10
    trollhattan says:

    Somebody punked the Mormon Church bigly.

    A fake Mormon news site popped up and caused a flurry of controversy throughout Salt Lake City Thursday after the Church of Latter Day Saints met with leaders of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), the Salt Lake City Tribune reported.

    While the meeting with the NAACP was factual, the fake-news site claimed that the church was announcing an official apology for their past racism. For two centuries the church had an institutionalized policy preventing black men of African descent from joining the clergy. To make matters worse, Mormon church founders Joseph Smith and Brigham Young claimed that black skin was part of a “Curse of Cain” or the “Curse of Ham.”

    The fake site published what it said was an official apology to people of color.

    “I offer a full unqualified apology for the error of racism which was taught from this office and in the tabernacle and over the pulpits of our churches the world over,” LDS Church President Russell M. Nelson was quoted as saying.

    The problem, however, is that Nelson never said it. Now the church is in the awkward position of having to tell the public that they have not apologized for their racism.

    Yup, awkward.

  11. 11
    TenguPhule says:

    @trollhattan:

    Now the church is in the awkward position of having to tell the public that they have not apologized for their racism.

    Couldn’t happen to a nicer bunch of assholes.

  12. 12
    opiejeanne says:

    @LAO: but I’m not wishing he’d move to Australia.

  13. 13
    danielx says:

    Which Giuliani is on first? CAN’T ANYBODY HERE PLAY THIS GAME?

  14. 14
    Shell says:

    Are we sure he willingly left his former law firm?

  15. 15

    As a political scientist and criminologist I understand all three of the major legal theories/positions on this

    But are you aware of all internet traditions?

  16. 16
    Brachiator says:

    Rudy Giuliani Needs To Sit Down With Rudy Giuliani So They Can Get Rudy Giuliani’s Story Straight!

    If Trump weren’t such a dope, he’d fire all three of these incompetent ambulance chasers….

  17. 17
    Kay says:

    I can’t listen to Giuliani. He’s one of the Trumspters I really loathe.

    The “can’t indict a sitting President” thing bothers me. The United States has a really harsh criminal justice system. Sentences are ridiculously long, everything and its brother is a felony and for a country like ours, where we seem to LOVE punishment, to decide that the President can’t be subject to to the same process as everyone else? It just sticks in my craw.

  18. 18
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TenguPhule: That was a great scene as was the Monkees’ spoof/tribute/homage to it.

  19. 19
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @LAO: Full disclosure: I am not related to Alex Silverman.

  20. 20
    trollhattan says:

    @kindness:
    Every moment is a Gish gallop. Suspect it’s part who they are; part looting “quick, before the cops arrive”; and part squid-cloud obfuscation and misdirection–“there’s nothing to see here hey, is this your watch?”

  21. 21
    trollhattan says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Sarah? I want to meet Sarah.

  22. 22
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @trollhattan: Well played!

  23. 23

    @trollhattan: well, sometimes they’re just being idiots.

  24. 24
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I did type:

    click it to embiggen

  25. 25
    gene108 says:

    @LAO:

    Rudy is a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad defense attorney. That is all.

    You assume his job is to defend his client in court. I think it’s to create enough talking points to inoculate the right-wing base against any truth that might come out. He’s a PR man masquerading as a defense lawyer.

  26. 26
    germy says:

    I was sort of half watching the CBS Evening News with Jeff Glor last night, but it looked like they presented the “Can’t indict a sitting president” as fact. The reporter told Glor it was a DOJ tradition, and then they moved on to the next story.

  27. 27
    opiejeanne says:

    @trollhattan: I love this! I’m sure the Tribune staff giggled with glee.

  28. 28
    Roger Moore says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    I think Goooliani is trying to make a Hail Mary defense case that Trump has been so sabotaged by incompetent council who have essentially plead guilty for him that it would be impossible to ever get a fair hearing–in an impeachment or in a court– on his criminal activities and thus should not be held accountable for them.

    I think this is overthinking things. The much simpler and more obvious explanation is that Rudy Giuliani is an incompetent buffoon who would never have been allowed near a legal proceeding of this importance and complexity if Trump were able to hire somebody better.

  29. 29
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Brachiator: And that’s at least 2 Rudy Giulianis more than anyone wants and/or needs.

  30. 30
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @trollhattan: I’m not related to her either.

  31. 31
    LAO says:

    @gene108: Fair enough. I think he’s a shitty PR guy as well. At some point Trump’s legal team (and I use that term loosely) is going to have to expand their efforts towards convincing non-RWNJs. I’m not sure that Guiliani accomplishes that.

  32. 32
    Kay says:

    @Ella in New Mexico:

    He’s a terrible lawyer. Bad lawyers overpromise and then when they can’t deliver they start screaming that everyone is corrupt and they were robbed. Good lawyers don’t overpromise and all he does is overpromise. He promised the Trumpsters that Clinton was going to prison too. When it didn’t happen he then had to start screeching and defaming everyone else.

    He’s TOO OLD to be this bad at this, which means it’s hopeless. He’ll always suck.

  33. 33
    Mary G says:

    I still find it hard to believe that we handed America over to these senile loons.

  34. 34
    trollhattan says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    Darn the luck. She’d be perfect to spice up those dreaded dull family gettogethers.

  35. 35
    ruemara says:

    I am absolutely sure this is a misinfo/”my counsel was obviously incompetent” campaign. It feeds the base the lies they need to keep supporting him, muddies the waters for the low info viewer as it’s always unchecked by the pundit they’re talking to & makes a bunch of traitorous grifters look like they’re the 3 stooges and just accidentally have been crooks for most their lives. Nah, not buying it.

  36. 36
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This should be fun!

  37. 37
    trollhattan says:

    Kent State U is known to most for but one thing. Now you may add another.

    A woman who slung an assault-style rifle across her shoulder for her graduation photos has sparked a fierce debate over personal freedom, student protests and white privilege.

    Kaitlin Bennett graduated from Kent State University with a degree in biology. The following day, the 22-year-old returned to the campus with an AR-10 semi-automatic rifle strapped to her back and posed for photographs while holding a graduation cap emblazoned with the words “come and take it”.

    Bennett, who later posted the photographs on Twitter, says she was protesting against a university policy that prohibited students, professors and employees from carrying “lethal weapons” on campus – but allows “guests” to possess them on school grounds (but not in buildings).

    She noted that Kent State was the location where “four unarmed students were shot and killed by the government” – a reference to the 1970 incident where 28 Ohio National Guard clashed with Vietnam War protesters, firing shots that hit 13 protesters and bystanders.

    Oh, the humanity.

  38. 38
    LAO says:

    @trollhattan: Apparently, on Fox and Friends (or some Fox show) this am, Bennett claimed she was the victim of racial discrimination because people were calling out her white privilege. SMH at the level of pure, rank stupidity.

  39. 39

    @trollhattan: I saw that. She’s… literally advocating shooting national guard troops.

    ETA also it is 100% pure trolling and I have spent all the mental energy on it that I’m allowing myself

  40. 40
  41. 41
    catclub says:

    @LAO:

    At some point Trump’s legal team (and I use that term loosely) is going to have to expand their efforts towards convincing non-RWNJs.

    Nope.

    Next you can tell us that Trump needs to pivot to being presidential, and stop his twitter rants. Nope.

    He only needs to feed his base. As long as he keeps his base and the GOP in the House and senate, he has NO need to convince anyone else.

  42. 42
    Mike J says:

    So Rudy thinks Mueller has enough to prosecute a normal person, but the only thing holding him back from throwing Trump in jail is that he can’t indict a president. He then goes on to compare himself and the Trump org to an organized crime family.

    Never, ever use your one phone call to call Rudy. Your speeding ticket is going to turn into a death penalty case.

  43. 43
    Mike in NC says:

    Donald Trump only hires the very best people. Like lawyers who haven’t actually practiced law in more than 20 years.

  44. 44
    Roger Moore says:

    @trollhattan:

    The following day, the 22-year-old returned to the campus with an AR-10 semi-automatic rifle strapped to her back and posed for photographs while holding a graduation cap emblazoned with the words “come and take it”.

    I’d be somebody who really wanted to could do just that. The could just walk up behind her and grab the thing; unless she’s exceptionally wary, they could get both hands on her gun before she noticed they were there. It’s not as if she could actually get a gun slung that way into action fast enough to respond to a crisis, either.

  45. 45
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    And that’s at least 2 Rudy Giulianis more than anyone wants and/or needs.

    Don’t you mean three?

  46. 46
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    It just sticks in my craw.

    Its also not true. They are gaslighting on this.

  47. 47
    catclub says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    She’s… literally advocating shooting national guard troops.

    um… that …. is doing a lot of work. She may be suggesting that if the students had been armed the Guard might not have shot at them, but even that is a stretch.

  48. 48
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I am not related to Alex Silverman.

    I dunno, we go far enough back in your family tree, I’m sure we’ll find something.

    Or are you really a robot, who is also a sea monster?

  49. 49
    Adam L Silverman says:

    I’m not sure what the Czechs did to deserve this, but it must have been very, very, very, very bad!

  50. 50
    LAO says:

    @Mike J: It’s kind of funny, if you think about it, that the defense offered by Giuliani is — Trump may have committed some felonies but since Mueller can’t indict a sitting president, the investigation should be shut down.

  51. 51
    catclub says:

    @Mike in NC: it says right there ‘best people’, not best lawyers.

  52. 52
    Baud says:

    Noun + Verb +  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

  53. 53

    @catclub: She seems to be suggesting that she could have won a firefight with the National Guard troops.

  54. 54
    ruemara says:

    @catclub: That’s exactly what she’s saying. If the students had had guns, they National Guard wouldn’t have been able to kill them. It’s not a stretch, it’s verbatim. Unless you have some other way of interpreting what she said.

  55. 55
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike J:

    Your speeding ticket is going to turn into a death penalty case.

    The good news is that this now applies to white people. Progress!

  56. 56
    Baud says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Makes Russian aggression seems like a welcome respite.

  57. 57
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Lanny Davis to Debate Steve Bannon in Prague

    Isn’t that against the Geneva Conventions?

    If not, it should be.

  58. 58
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Roger Moore: I could have the magazine out, the chamber cleared, and the sling cut before she could turn around. Or, I could be mean and just leave it intact and apply a lateral vascular restraint on her with the sling, using the AR 10 for leverage, before she could turn around. What she did was stupid.

  59. 59
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    At some point Rudy is going to start accusing Rudy of lying.

    @Shell:
    It’s pretty clear from the reporting that he was fired for publicly saying the firm was a party to illicit hush-money payments. Was it true? Shrug.

  60. 60

    @Adam L Silverman: Prague is in Ukraine now?

  61. 61
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @TenguPhule: I was giving it the benefit of the doubt that someone, somewhere wanted one.

  62. 62
    jl says:

    Thanks for an informative post on this. Glad to see that Rudy is providing, under pressure, some policing for Rudy’s BS.

    IANAL, not an expert on political science or criminology, and I am not aware of all internet traditions. I’m not an expert on the three major theories on impeachment and criminal indictment and trial of a sitting president.

    So, all I can do is appeal to common sense. I thin both expansive ‘living constitution’ and textualist/strict constructionists/original intenter schools recognize that it is important to pay some attention to what the Framers said, explicitly said, very explicitly said, about what impeachment and consequent trial and removal from office by Congress is and is not. And I think there was an unusual consensus among people of different ideological persuasions, like Madison, Hamilton, Wilson, Mason, Franklin, etc. And note that they managed to persuade some initial skeptics like Morris and I believe Pickney. And any theory that directly contradicts what they said should be considered very doubtful, and we don’t need to take it seriously. And from reading what the Framers said, I think the following points are clear:about impeachment and criminal liability of Presdient
    Not intended for violations of statute law, but also for political crimes against the people of the US not covered by criminal law
    There is no double jeopardy for impeachment and criminal liability for same ofenses
    Acts that are, on their face, lawful or constitutional can be impeachable offenses if done for corrupt purpose (unitary executive theory is bunk at least on that point)
    Congress is sole judge, House for indictment (impeachment) and Senate for trial and removal

    Also, note that Aaron Burr spent a good chunk of his term as VP on the lam from two state murder charges. I don’t remember anyone thinking anything odd about that, since a lot of evidence he shot and killed Hamilton in an illegal duel. So I think that precedent shows that no constitutional bar to indictment of executive branch officers. There are pragmatic arguments against indictment of president, but that is a different matter.

    That is the IMHO on it.

  63. 63
    LAO says:

    Kimba Wood is an awesome District Court Judge. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Cohen must be fuming right now.

  64. 64
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    What she did was stupid.

    But is it any stupider then the stuff we’re seeing day after day from the ReallyNot Goodfellas?

  65. 65
    Mike J says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Actually it’s a clip.

  66. 66
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Where was he radicalized? Who was his minister? Will the NRA denounce him? Will all other white, male conservative Americans denounce him? Why won’t they speak up?

  67. 67
    Spanky says:

    @opiejeanne: If the LDS had any brains, they’d claim that Nelson actually did say that. Just get the damn thing over with.

    Also too: Nelson

  68. 68

    @catclub: fine. She’s literally advocating being willing and able to shoot national guard troops at a moment’s notice.

  69. 69
    geg6 says:

    @Kay:

    Well, the people saying this aren’t really on solid ground, are they? It was the judgment of the DoJ in the 1970s that you couldn’t indict a sitting president, but that doesn’t mean that is correct. It’s never been tried, so I don’t see any reason Mueller couldn’t give it a shot.

  70. 70
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, fingers got ahead of my processor. I’ll fix it. Good catch!

  71. 71
    🌷 Martin says:

    My best friend’s sister’s boyfriend’s brother’s girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who’s going with a girl who overheard Mueller say that the President can’t be indicted at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it’s pretty serious.

  72. 72
    TenguPhule says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Will the NRA denounce him? Will all other white, male conservative Americans denounce him?

    No.

    SATSQ.

  73. 73
    jl says:

    @jl: And I’ve never read that there was push back on Franklin’s pithy summary that if things got so bad with a president that it would be very important for the safety of the country to remove the jackass by any means necessary, a less extreme measure like impeachment and trial in Congress was vastly preferable.

  74. 74
    J R in WV says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Oh, darn.

    I was hoping we could get some pro-grade snark around here. I kid ;-) . But you knew that.

  75. 75
    🌷 Martin says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Where was he radicalized?

    Fox News.

    Who was his minister?

    Sean Hannity

    Will the NRA denounce him?

    Heh

    Will all other white, male conservative Americans denounce him?

    Come on, now you’re just being silly.

  76. 76
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @LAO: Nonsense. He is merely extremely efficient. He presents both sides of the case himself. And a few extra, jusr for fun.

  77. 77
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Thanks. I read a little about it so I know it’s discretionary to a certain extent. I just hate how people say it “he CANNOT be indicted!” It sounds gross to me- like courtiers for the King or something.

    If I were a Democratic politician I would run on “there is a white collar crime wave and we have to crack down!”

    Just like that. That blunt. My God, the examples you could cite! The greed, the grossness, the special pleading and privilege. I feel like someone could tell this story in a way that would reach people. Tough on crime, but with a twist.

  78. 78

    @Mike J: Well played.

    When I was in the army the words were interchangeable. Obviously, as professionals not obsessive freaks, we had no idea what we were talking about.

  79. 79
    Adam L Silverman says:

    Off to the gym, you all play nice or Rudy Giuliani will ask Rudy Giuliani to ask Rudy Giuliani to come and explain things to you!

  80. 80
    LAO says:

    @jl: Whether we like it or not, the question of whether the Department of Justice can seek and obtain an Indictment against a sitting president is an open question — and partially because we, as a nation, have never been in this situation before. As Adam cited in his post, Neal Katyal doesn’t dismiss the possibility of an indictment out of hand. Also, I have recently read, that one of the distinctions the DOJ will look at, is whether the criminal conduct occurred during the Presidency or prior to it, with the belief that the President may be un-indictable for current conduct, but not prior conduct. I really not sure where I read it or I would include a link.

  81. 81
    feebog says:

    Rudy is so comically inept at this lawyering stuff, you just have to laugh. Mueller and his team have ROTFLOL every time he makes a TV appearance.

  82. 82
    jl says:

    @J R in WV: So, there is no pic of Sarah and Adam L Silverman together.
    ALS’s snark and humor is so dry, I have been operating under the theory that they are the same person. Sarah Silverman’s moonlighting gigi under deep cover. That would explain a lot of the mysteries surrounding the supposed ‘Adam’ Silverman,

  83. 83
    geg6 says:

    @LAO:

    Also, I have recently read, that one of the distinctions the DOJ will look at, is whether the criminal conduct occurred during the Presidency or prior to it, with the belief that the President may be un-indictable for current conduct, but not prior conduct. I really not sure where I read it or I would include a link.

    I must have read the same thing (no idea where). But I’m not sure that makes any sense to me. But IANAL, so it may make sense to someone who is.

  84. 84
    jl says:

    @LAO: Since to some extent what the law is and does is a function of what the people in charge of enforcing it think it is and decide to do about, in that sense I agree completely that it is an open question.

    My point was that I don’t think there are any plausible constitutional arguments against it, at least arguments that pay attention to the Framer’s debates and subsequent statements, and evidence of practice back when almost all of them were there to comment on the current events of the time.
    Would be interesting if a state decided to indict a president. I can’t think of a better test case than Trump.

  85. 85

    @jl: I’ve talked to him on the phone he is definitely not Sarah Silverman

  86. 86
    catclub says:

    Did Qaddafi actually have nuclear weapons? I always thought he had done some research but was not all the way there.

    in some bloomberg article:

    U.S. National Security Adviser John Bolton drew the ire of the North Korean government for saying that the country’s nuclear disarmament should follow the “Libya model” embraced by Muammar Qaddafi, who after giving up his atomic weapons was later overthrown and killed in a U.S.-backed uprising.

  87. 87
    Ruckus says:

    @LAO:
    Is Rudy 9/11 licensed to practice law in any state? Or has he been in the last 25 years?

  88. 88
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @catclub: Yeah. As long as. To quote the philosopher, Tick, Tock.

  89. 89
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @trollhattan: LOL!! Perfect. How hard is it to apologize for a church doctrine which was based on nothing but racism and bigotry? Should be a no brainer especially since so many of your members are Black.

  90. 90
    jl says:

    @Major Major Major Major: You are denying Sarah Silverman’s talents as an actress and comedian who can easily adopt many guises? OK then.

  91. 91
    TenguPhule says:

    @LAO:

    with the belief that the President may be un-indictable for current conduct, but not prior conduct. I really not sure where I read it or I would include a link.

    Limited Immunity for actions performed as a official government function is a common feature.

  92. 92
    LAO says:

    Well, well, well. You get what you pay for:

    NEWS: Rudy is representing @realDonaldTrump for free.— Jonathan Franks (@jonfranks) May 17, 2018

  93. 93
    Yarrow says:

    @Kay:

    If I were a Democratic politician I would run on “there is a white collar crime wave and we have to crack down!”

    Just like that. That blunt. My God, the examples you could cite! The greed, the grossness, the special pleading and privilege. I feel like someone could tell this story in a way that would reach people. Tough on crime, but with a twist.

    OMG, that is brilliant. They should all run on that. People are still mad that almost nobody has significant jail time for the 2008 almost-depression and most of those people are back screwing people over again.

  94. 94
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’ve talked to him on the phone he is definitely not Sarah Silverman

    Voice changing devices are not that expensive these days.

  95. 95
    rp says:

    Someone should have tackled the Kent State student and said they thought she was a school shooter.

  96. 96
    TenguPhule says:

    @catclub:

    Did Qaddafi actually have nuclear weapons?

    Weapons grade Nuclear material.

    They actually had chemo and bio weapons ready for use.

  97. 97
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @🌷 Martin:

    the President can’t be indicted at 31 Flavors

    The president is holed up in a sanctuary Ice Creamery?

  98. 98
    jonas says:

    These knuckleheads are so used to going on fake news shows on Fox where their job is just to spray bullshit around the studio for 10 minutes that they forget when talking to an actual reporter that they have to, you know, remain grounded in some sort of acknowledged objective reality.

  99. 99
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Just one of those things that seemed like a good idea at the time and is proven upon later consideration to have been a mistake.

  100. 100
    burnspbesq says:

    @Roger Moore:

    I’ve often fantasized about getting in line behind one of these gun-humpers at a fast-food joint where he is struggling to comprehend the menu, and in a normal, conversational tone saying something like “hey, pal, your situational awareness is for shit. If I’d wanted to, I could have taken you out any time in the last three minutes.”

  101. 101
    LAO says:

    @Ruckus: He is currently registered in NYS. (And presumably in the Federal Courts as well).

  102. 102
    trollhattan says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    You’ll run into service writers who discuss your transmission and discover to your horror that the mechanic working on your car calls that thing a “gearbox.”

    “I demand the man who replaces my synchro gears be one who can elucidate properly!” said nobody, ever.

  103. 103
    Brachiator says:

    @catclub:

    U.S. National Security Adviser John Bolton drew the ire of the North Korean government for saying that the country’s nuclear disarmament should follow the “Libya model” embraced by Muammar Qaddafi, who after giving up his atomic weapons was later overthrown and killed in a U.S.-backed uprising.

    Trump may have just double downed on this. According to the Guardian.

    Trump’s warning to Kim Jong-un: make a deal or suffer same fate as Gaddafi

    Asked about ‘Libya model’, Trump says: ‘That model… was total decimation. That model would take place if we don’t make a deal’

    Of course, Trump doesn’t even understand what Bolton was talking about.

    The model Bolton was referring to was Gaddafi’s agreement in December 2003 to surrender his embryonic nuclear weapons programme, which included allowing his uranium centrifuges to be shipped out to the US.

    But Trump appeared to be unaware of that agreement, and interpreted the “Libyan model” to mean the 2011 Nato intervention in Libya in support of an insurrection, which ultimately led to Gaddafi’s murder at the hands of rebels in Tripoli.

    Hmmm. I think that Nobel Peace Prize Trump was counting on may be slip sliding away.

    Trump, Bolton, Rudy G. The Three Stooges of the Apocalypse

  104. 104
    jl says:

    @Gelfling 545: I for one, think we need all the Rudy’s helping us on this one. It is insufferable, but having Rudy debunk himself on a regular basis saves the rest of society a lot of needless work.

    OTOH, did you confess to giving the BJ commentariate the benefit of the doubt? Or did I misunderstand. Can’t believe anyone would be that deluded.

    Edit: sorry that was meant for Adam Silverman. I just stuffed myself with mass quantities of free lunch, so am too punchy to comment right now. My apologies.

  105. 105
    MattF says:

    The (obvious!) solution is that there are six different Rudy Giulianis.

  106. 106
    YetAnotherJay formerly (Jay S) says:

    @feebog:

    Mueller and his team have ROTFLOL every time he makes a TV appearance

    I doubt there is much laughing as each appearance requires adding to the files and possibly investigating a new crime. More Rudi, more problems.

  107. 107
    Waynski says:

    @Kay:

    I feel like someone could tell this story in a way that would reach people. Tough on crime, but with a twist.

    Can we call it Bonfire of the Hannitys?

  108. 108
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    Trump may have just double downed on this.

    Kim is going to triple dog dare Trump to stick his tongue to that flagpole.

  109. 109
    Yarrow says:

    @Waynski: That would be good. For a slightly less delicate crowd, “Jump you motherfuckers” works for me.

  110. 110
    trollhattan says:

    @Brachiator:
    “Arab Spring continues on Korean Peninsula” will be a headline for the ages. I forget, are the Kims Shia or Sunni?

  111. 111
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    Trump, Bolton, Rudy G. The Three Stooges of the Apocalypse

    Where does Scott Pruitt fit in?

    Or is it Jeff Sessions?

  112. 112
    Mnemosyne says:

    @trollhattan:

    They should revoke her degree on the grounds that she’s clearly a moron.

  113. 113
    jonas says:

    @Mike in NC: Like someone pointed out upthread, these “lawyers” like Giuliani aren’t there to provide actual legal counsel in a conventional sense, they’re there to go on TV and reinforce the narrative — however stupidly, but it’s Fox viewers we’re talking about here — that the president is the poor victim of a relentless, illegitimate prosecution so that when Mueller’s report drops and basically lays a whole universe of political and financial crimes at Trump’s feet, his base doesn’t waver. If the base doesn’t waver, GOP reps and Senators won’t waver, and if GOP reps and Senators don’t waver, there’s no impeachment and (were the House to eventually flip) no conviction.

  114. 114
    burnspbesq says:

    Bob Bauer and others at Lawfare have repeatedly shredded the reasoning of the 2000 OLC opinion and it’s 1970s predecessor. Rosenstein has the power to tell Mueller to ignore them.

  115. 115
    TenguPhule says:

    SHS DOUBLES DOWN!!!

    Speaking at the White House press briefing on Thursday afternoon, Sanders said: “I don’t think the term the president used is strong enough.” She added: “Frankly I think the term animal doesn’t go far enough and I think the president should continue to use his platform and everything he can do under the law to stop these types of horrible, horrible, disgusting people.”

    I did nazi that coming.

  116. 116
    Waynski says:

    @Yarrow: I like yours better :)

  117. 117
    MattF says:

    @TenguPhule: Sarah just earned her keep.

  118. 118
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    They should revoke her degree on the grounds that she’s clearly a moron.

    But then the graduating class would become a graduating person.

  119. 119
  120. 120
    Leto says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Didn’t know that Kent State was selling degrees now. I’d say nobody that stupid could have passed, but here we are.

  121. 121
    TenguPhule says:

    Haspel confirmed, CIA now no longer under American control.

  122. 122
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @jl: she’s much funnier and much better looking than I am.

  123. 123
    jl says:

    @MattF: I think the maximum theoretically possible number of Rudy’s is eleven. So nothing to worry about. We can plan on how to handle the pain of multiple Rudy’s and how to process the theoretical maximum Rudy self-debunking rate. There’s a transform for that.

  124. 124
    Kay says:

    @Yarrow:

    It would be fun, too. So much of conservative law ‘n order is punching down. This would be punching up.

    You could do that “renounce!” thing that political media love so much, too. Make Republicans RENOUNCE white collar criminals.

    Let’s make campaigns fun again!

  125. 125
    Yarrow says:

    @TenguPhule: They’re all the Keystone Cops of the Apocalypse.

  126. 126
    catclub says:

    @MattF: she needs to bring up vermin and cockroaches more often, for full credit. Also machete’s.

  127. 127
    jl says:

    Hear on news machine that state judge is letting a defamation lawsuit proceed against Trump. So we may get a number of interesting test cases on whether a sitting president is above any law at all in the US.

  128. 128
    Mike J says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    When I was in the army the words were interchangeable. Obviously, as professionals not obsessive freaks, we had no idea what we were talking about.

    Every single person in the world calls the AK-47’s curved magazine a banana clip. I’ll bet if read NRA magazines (heh) mentioning that rifle, they call it a banana clip. There’s no reason to make a distinction unless you’re trying to silence the opposition.

  129. 129
    TenguPhule says:

    @jl:

    I think the maximum theoretically possible number of Rudy’s is eleven.

    After that we pass the moron event horizon and everything collapses into single verb and noun.

  130. 130
    Yarrow says:

    @Kay: It would be fun! I’d be all for it. Please, please, please let’s get right on making politicians RENOUNCE white collar criminals!

  131. 131
    catclub says:

    @Yarrow: That pranked website on the Mormons looks like more fun. Do them for the big banks.

  132. 132
    catclub says:

    @TenguPhule:

    maximum theoretically possible number of Rudy’s is eleven.

    this is why string theory has to collapse all those extra dimensions.

  133. 133
    Barbara says:

    @trollhattan: I give up on what she could possibly mean by bringing up the four Kent State students who were killed during a protest. Is she suggesting that if the four students had been armed they could have defended themselves from their attackers — members of the Ohio National Guard?

  134. 134
    trollhattan says:

    Those in charge of correcting the correction have been sacked. One more of these and somebody’s committing seppuku.

    A Japanese rail company has apologised after a train left a station 25 seconds early, the second such case in months.

    The operator said the “great inconvenience we placed upon our customers was truly inexcusable”.

    If the details are anything to go by, customers are faced with slipping standards: a train last November left 20 seconds early while this time it was a full 25 seconds premature.
    –BBC

  135. 135
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Trump, Bolton, Rudy G. The Three Stooges of the Apocalypse

    Where does Scott Pruitt fit in?

    I think Pruitt would be the Shemp Howard of the Stooge Apocalypse.

    @TenguPhule:

    Sarah Sanders: Trump calling MS-13 members animals ‘doesn’t go far enough’

    They have learned from their boss and clearly know what pleases him. Trump never backs down from or retracts an insult. But he is quick to demand a groveling apology for the tiniest perceived slight. This is the official standard of the Trump administration.

    They are exactly who we thought they were.

  136. 136
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: Richard Painter is basically running on this plus single payer and a few other things in Minnesota for Franken’s old seat.

  137. 137
    Corner Stone says:

    Looks like I may have to tune into Chris Hayes one more time tonight. I hope I’m not going to get “Maddow with the taxes”

    Chris Hayes
    ‏Verified account @chrislhayes
    6m6 minutes ago

    So we have some exclusive, never before seen video tonight that @realDonaldTrump is going *love*.

    (And by love, I mean hate.)

    ETA, he goes on to twit that it’s not the pee tape.

  138. 138
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I haven’t been following his candidacy. I have some contacts in MN. I’ll see what they have to say.

  139. 139
    Shana says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Link please.

  140. 140
    Jeffro says:

    MSNBC’s running Jackass’s tweets and endless “witch hunt” comments – more free airtime for the Ill Douche. Oh hey, now comments from a reporter and the cream cheese sculpture.

  141. 141
    Baud says:

    @Corner Stone: I hope it’s not something they should have uncovered during the election.

  142. 142
    danielx says:

    @LAO:

    I have to admit it – I’m coming to believe that if I was on trial for my life, Rudy Giuliani’s name is not one that would spring to my mind as a defense attorney.

    How the hell did he ever get to be a US Attorney?

  143. 143
    Brachiator says:

    WaPo almost gets it right:

    Trump’s long history of referring to nonwhite criminals as ‘animals’

    “In full-page ads, Donald Trump seemed to call for nothing short of a pogrom against these youngsters [The Central Park Accused]: ‘I no longer want to understand their anger. I want them to understand our anger,’ ” Payne wrote. “Trump, his bulldozers ever at the ready, called for the death penalty.”

    Those full-page ads by Trump that ran in the city’s tabloids included some of the dehumanizing language that Payne was concerned about. Families were afraid to walk in the park, Trump wrote, thanks to “roving bands of wild criminals” roaming through the city.

    Five of the young men accused of the rape were convicted — only to be exonerated years later after a serial rapist admitted to the crime.

    Of course, when it comes to nonwhite people, Trump cannot be bothered to distinguish between the accused and the convicted, the innocent and the guilty, or even mere bystanders.

    Trump sticks to the lie no matter what, and demands that his staff do likewise. And so, his press secretary has to stand by her man.

    ETA: Trump is never wrong. He never backed down from his false accusations about the Central Park Five, not even when they were exonerated.

    “They admitted they were guilty,” Trump said to CNN in a statement.

    “The police doing the original investigation say they were guilty. The fact that that case was settled with so much evidence against them is outrageous.

  144. 144
    Yarrow says:

    @Corner Stone: I cannot watch Chris Hayes.

  145. 145
    Doug R says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I’ve talked to him on the phone he is definitely not Sarah Silverman

    Voice changing devices are not that expensive these days.

    So is he Andy or Ollie?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hEgvtaIYBo

  146. 146
    Yarrow says:

    Speaking of white collar crime, this is good news:

    Arizona men charged in Manhattan federal court with $23 million fraud & money laundering scheme in connection with purported fundraising for numerous scam political action committees https://t.co/SpqOl8NyrX— US Attorney SDNY (@SDNYnews) May 17, 2018

  147. 147
    MattF says:

    @Brachiator: Trump’s done many, many, many bad things, but the Central Park Five business is the worst.

    ETA: I know, just one man’s opinion.

  148. 148
    Corner Stone says:

    @Yarrow: I’ve had to stop watching him for reasons. If it were Maddow pimping a hyped tape of something I would pass and just read about it on twit. But I’ll give the easily rolled frat boy hipster douche an eyeball. Unless Miami Vice w/ Colin Farrell and Jamie Foxx is on. Then it’s all bets are off!

  149. 149
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @trollhattan: I thought that would be about the document forger.

  150. 150
    Yarrow says:

    This would be hell.

    SCOOP – UTA agent has pitched Avenatti and Mooch as a Crossfire 3.0 to two cable nets. @nytmike https://t.co/MDNq9zojZW— Maggie Haberman (@maggieNYT) May 17, 2018

  151. 151
    Kay says:

    The real “breaking news” is they aren’t denying this anymore. They moved right to “no one can indict him for anything”.

    That is a LONG ways from where they were in January of ’17.

  152. 152
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @burnspbesq:

    ’ve often fantasized about getting in line behind one of these gun-humpers at a fast-food joint where he is struggling to comprehend the menu, and in a normal, conversational tone saying something like “hey, pal, your situational awareness is for shit. If I’d wanted to, I could have taken you out any time in the last three minutes.”

    Even better “Come on pal, what if I was an Anfita She-Feminist? “Allah Akbar” would have been the last thing you heard before the dirt nap. AMERICA needs ever man in THE GAME buddy if we are to win this! Catching us with our pants down is the classic liberal game, like Hitler at St Petersburg in 1917! Are you an AmeriCAN or AmericCAN’T?”

  153. 153
    Amir Khalid says:

    @jl:

    I think the maximum theoretically possible number of Rudy’s is eleven.

    For some reason I found myself thinking of a Rudy Giuliani FC.

  154. 154
    Mandalay says:

    @jonas:

    it’s Fox viewers we’re talking about here

    They are irrelevant. There are barely 3 million of them at best, and most are going to vote Republican anyway, if they don’t die before the next election.

    Far more importantly, Fox serves as a conduit for our failed media to present the “news” that “…(someone doofus on fox says) THE MUELLER INQUIRY IS A WITCH HUNT!!!!“.

    Trump is completely correct about there being a lot of fake news. But most of it is not fake in the sense that he portrays it: as fabrication and malicious bias. It is “fake” simply because it is not news; it is not worth reporting.

    Aventatti releasing specific new information about payments made by Cohen is real news. Trump saying he doesn’t know anything about a payment to Stormy Daniels is real news. Giuliani or Sanders claiming that the inquiry is a witch hunt is not news, yet our failed media – in their pathetic desperation for breaking news – places irrelevant drivel like that on an equal footing.

  155. 155
    MattF says:

    @Kay: I guess the next step is to arrest anyone who disagrees.

  156. 156
    MattF says:

    @jl: You’d think that someone around here knows about subscripts and the summation convention.

  157. 157
    Roger Moore says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Or, I could be mean and just leave it intact and apply a lateral vascular restraint on her with the sling, using the AR 10 for leverage, before she could turn around. What she did was stupid.

    I had thought about the “strangling with the sling” aspect, too. The main thing she’s demonstrating is white privilege, but I don’t think she’s emotionally capable of recognizing the concept even exists.

  158. 158
    Mary G says:

    Reuters Exclusive: Manafort’s former son-in-law cuts plea deal, to cooperate with government: sources

    The former son-in-law of Paul Manafort, the one-time chairman of President Donald Trump’s campaign, has cut a plea deal with the Justice Department that requires him to cooperate with other criminal probes, two people with knowledge of the matter said.

    The guilty plea agreement, which is under seal and has not been previously reported, could add to the legal pressure on Manafort, who is facing two indictments brought by Special Counsel Robert Mueller in his probe of alleged Russian meddling in the 2016 presidential election.

    We’re going to need a bigger federal prison pretty soon.

  159. 159
    Yarrow says:

    @Corner Stone: I’ve decided he’s at best a useful idiot. I just can’t with him anymore. Too much Sage of the Small White State. Maybe if I’m at the gym and his show is on I’ll glance at it. Otherwise, no.

  160. 160
    JPL says:

    Manafort’s former SIL cut a plea deal with the justice department.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-russia-manafort-exclusive/exclusive-manaforts-former-son-in-law-cuts-plea-deal-to-cooperate-with-government-sources-idUSKCN1II2YM

    edit .. Mary posted it above, but the legal eagles need to weigh in.

  161. 161
    jacy says:

    @TenguPhule:

    It’s Shemps all the way down.

  162. 162
    catclub says:

    @Barbara: I think you are pretty much right. But I don’t think she even says this. I also don’t think she is calling for gunning down National Guard troops.

  163. 163
    feebog says:

    @MattF:

    Trump’s done many, many, many bad things, but the Central Park Five business is the worst.

    Robert Mueller: “hold my beer”.

  164. 164
    jl says:

    @MattF:
    Sorry, I meant ‘Rudies’, not ‘Rudy’s’. Or is it ‘Rudys’? F if I know.

  165. 165
    Kay says:

    @MattF:

    Well, Guiliani lied about who told who what, but why is he saying this at all? Their position prior to this has been there isn’t anything to indict the President on. Now there is?

    I wouldn’t find this real comforting if I were a Trumpster. “Luckily, we have this opinion that says you can’t be indicted!” That counts as good news in the Trump Administration?

  166. 166
    catclub says:

    @MattF:

    about subscripts and the summation convention.

    pick me, pick me. Einstein notation.

  167. 167
    jl says:

    @Yarrow: Wiki says Painter recently switched to Farmer-Labor and is running under that party, which in MN I think means Democrat

  168. 168
    Barbara says:

    @trollhattan: That’s a serious commitment to punctuality.

  169. 169
    Kay says:

    @Mary G:

    I’m humane so I think they should get tennis courts and a library. I’m okay with Club Fed.

    But only after state prisons get them. For everyone. And they have to pay for it.

  170. 170
    Van Buren says:

    @trollhattan: Now that, my friends, is 11 dimension chess being played at Grandmaster level.

  171. 171
    Roger Moore says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    How hard is it to apologize for a church doctrine which was based on nothing but racism and bigotry?

    Very hard. It’s always hard for somebody claiming to be relaying the truth straight from God to admit they were wrong, even when it’s obvious to everyone. See the Catholic Church’s positions on contraception and abortion.

  172. 172
    Brachiator says:

    @MattF:

    Trump’s done many, many, many bad things, but the Central Park Five business is the worst.

    ETA: I know, just one man’s opinion.

    I agree that this is bad. And compounded by Trump totally demolishing the fantasy that a person elected president accepts the deep burdens of the office and tries to elevate himself or herself. Trump, by contrast, sees his election as the ultimate vindication of every nasty impulse he has ever had.

  173. 173
    Baud says:

    @Mary G:

    We could turn some Trump Towers into prisons.

  174. 174
    Barbara says:

    @Brachiator: I am sure the Central Park 5 are trying to move forward in their lives but his continuing public statements that they were guilty are actionable. I would seriously consider suing Trump. They were exonerated and he still accuses them of having committed a crime.

  175. 175
    Corner Stone says:

    God damn it.

    Chris Hayes
    ‏Verified account @chrislhayes
    23m23 minutes ago

    Last thing I’ll say on this entire issue. Having made very clear my view that Trump’s comments were vile and bigoted, there’s no excuse for anyone reporting on those comments not to include the context of the question that prompted the rant.

  176. 176
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Brachiator:
    Well, flaunting those nasty impulses did get him elected.

  177. 177
    Yarrow says:

    @MattF:

    Trump’s done many, many, many bad things, but the Central Park Five business is the worst.

    The Central Park Five thing is a tangible example of his horrific racism and disregard for the law and justice. Knowing what he said and did there, we can only imagine things that haven’t made headlines. He’s just an awful person.

    As bad as it is, I think him selling out the country to Russia and all the destruction of the country he’s doing as president are worse. It’s like the Central Park Five thing was a preview of the horror he’d bring as president.

  178. 178
    Roger Moore says:

    @Kay:

    I’m humane so I think they should get tennis courts and a library.

    I think all prisoners deserve humane treatment. It’s part of what separates decent people from authoritarian thugs.

  179. 179
    Yarrow says:

    @Corner Stone: Like I said, useful idiot.

  180. 180
    Chyron HR says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Like, does she understand that outside of her family people don’t immediately equate “animal” with “string it up, throw rocks at it, and set it on fire?”

  181. 181
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Adam L Silverman: We have Julie-Annie the crossdresser malgre lui lu-eye, Ghouliani the Walking Dead-from-the-neck-up, and Goombahliani, Murka’s favorite wise-guy-full-of-whizzdumb…any others lurking under slimy rocks?

  182. 182
    Libraryguy says:

    Help?

    Hi all, just a quick bleg to ask for some emergency financial assistance due to a well-meaning but absentee landlord’s screw-up! It’s Woodstock Reveries, and the site is here

    If anyone can help, it would make a world of difference. 3 Juicers have already generously helped with almost $100 in orders (thank you!), but we need about $400 more by the weekend.

    Thanks for your patience, and all the support you’ve already sent our way.

  183. 183
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @trollhattan:

    She noted that Kent State was the location where “four unarmed students were shot and killed by the government” – a reference to the 1970 incident where 28 Ohio National Guard clashed with Vietnam War protesters, firing shots that hit 13 protesters and bystanders.

    Which of course ignores the historical context that event occurred in. People didn’t own semi-automatic assault rifles then. And if some armed student decided to retaliate it would have been even more of a bloodbath then it already was.

  184. 184
    TenguPhule says:

    @MattF:

    I guess the next step is to arrest anyone who disagrees.

    They’ve already had trial runs of this.

  185. 185
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Corner Stone: There is no context which can justify Trump’s animal comments. Keep in mind that Trump has never referred to the Neo Nazis who killed a protester in Charlottesville as animals. He couldn’t even bring himself to condemn David Duke. Trump’s animal comments play into his base’s racism. That’s all that matters to him.

  186. 186
    debbie says:

    Thanks for the summary, Adam, I was getting totally lost.

    Also, I’ve seen Godfather more than a few times, and I don’t remember that dialog.

  187. 187
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:

    include the context of the question that prompted the rant.

    What possible added context could ever make what Trump said ok, Chris?

    I don’t even know what was said, but I don’t need to. I’ve seen this asshole (Trump) in action for nearly 3 years now.

    ETA: Oh, it was the “animals” rant. What the fuck is wrong with Hayes?

  188. 188
    TenguPhule says:

    @Chyron HR:

    does she understand that outside of her family people don’t immediately equate “animal” with “string it up, throw rocks at it, and set it on fire?”

    Is that a rhetorical question?

  189. 189
    J R in WV says:

    And with all the information Adam presents up above about Rudy Giuliani’s mis-statements, not to say falsehoods, CNN is going with Wolf and his moll telling us that Trump CANNOT be indicted, period.

    There is no method to send them a correction, informing them about the actual DOJ policy documents, no way of asking if they ever requested a copy of the actual policy from the DOJ, nothing! Surely they have never read the policy doc with a lawyer explaining it to them…

    They are in a race to the bottom with Faux, with no limits to their bounding assholeiness. They are sucking Trump 24/7 in hopes of maintaining their non-existent access, in hopes that Trump will renounce his Fale News hatred of CNN, which we all know will never happen, no matter how favorable their news about Trump really is.

    Despicable! Glad I can’t watch the cable news show and see advertisements!!! wait, how will I know whom to boycott????

  190. 190
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Roger Moore: The Southern Baptists (who are still odious, btw) apologized for their racist past. It’s not that hard. Just apologize and admit that you were wrong and move on.

  191. 191
    Kay says:

    I had a nice man call me at work and (really nervous) tell me he wants to volunteer for the D House candidate here – which is the longest of long shots. He’s never done anything before but he’s an anti-Trumper. I was trying to put him at ease so I made a joke about how no one is in charge -true- but that seemed to insult him a little so stopped clowning around and told him he could help, well, me. Or I could help him. It’s kind of sad how people think this is a real organization that they have to get into, when really I spend most of my time trying not to spook them so they don’t bolt and run away.

    This is his candidate. He doesn’t seem particularly exciting to me and I actually voted for his opponent in the primary (Neu) but he inspired this one person to do something, at least, so that’s nice. I do see quite a few of his signs around.

  192. 192
    Citizen Alan says:

    @trollhattan:

    Is this stupid bint seriously suggesting that Kent state would have gone better for everyone if the protesters had been armed and returned fire against the National Guard?

  193. 193
    Brachiator says:

    @Yarrow:

    Trump’s done many, many, many bad things, but the Central Park Five business is the worst.

    The Central Park Five thing is a tangible example of his horrific racism and disregard for the law and justice. Knowing what he said and did there, we can only imagine things that haven’t made headlines.

    But the thing is, we don’t have to imagine. We can see what he is doing to people now. We can see what his Justice Department is doing now. We can see what ICE agents are doing now. We can see how he is reshaping immigration policy to discriminate against nonwhite people now.

    He’s just an awful person.

    He is a racist resurrecting American Apartheid.

    As bad as it is, I think him selling out the country to Russia and all the destruction of the country he’s doing as president are worse. It’s like the Central Park Five thing was a preview of the horror he’d bring as president.

    It’s all bad. Trump is the foreign and domestic evil that we must defeat.

  194. 194
    Baud says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:
    @Citizen Alan:

    “The hippies should shoot back” is not a position I usually associate with gun lovers.

  195. 195
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Brachiator: Someone oughta whisper in his ear, Urine the running for the IgNobel Piss Prize, no kidneying!

  196. 196
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Brachiator:
    Couldn’t people organize to stop things like ICE?

  197. 197
    Yarrow says:

    @Brachiator: My point was, there are plenty of things he has done that we don’t know about. The unknown people he has hurt through the decades. We know about the ICE stuff. It’s horrible. What don’t we know?

    One thing that will come out is the girls he has hurt. The young girls. Horrible.

  198. 198
    J R in WV says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Like, does she understand that outside of her family people don’t immediately equate “animal” with “string it up, throw rocks at it, and set it on fire?”

    So good! No, probably not.

  199. 199
    Corner Stone says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    Is this stupid bint seriously suggesting that Kent state would have gone better for everyone if the protesters had been armed and returned fire against the National Guard?

    Anyone who does not think this person would have joined up with the Guard to shoot the hippies is fooling themselves.

  200. 200
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Corner Stone: Is this going to end up being “I know Trump was extremely racist, but recently a mexican man hadn’t bowed when Trump came in the room” or “Trump said some incredibly sexist things to that woman, but it’s important to remember the context that she was very attractive.”

    Circumstances don’t make bigotry any better. They can explain but not justify.

  201. 201
    trollhattan says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: @Citizen Alan:
    I’m guessing she doesn’t know one of the Kent State dead was an R.O.T.C. student but regardless, she’s trying to make herself the target [heh] of an unfair gummint confiscation of her Precious and is essentially taunting them (who, exactly?) to come get it whilst she’s on campus, protected by thousands of living students and four ghosts.

    It is not impossible she developed an ether addiction while earning her bio degree.

  202. 202
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Mary G: Build it out at L5, blast all the Trumpanzees out there & tell them they can either stir their own shit to feed the algae that make the air they breathe, or asphyxiate.

  203. 203
    Baud says:

    This sucks.

    Democrats are concerned that California’s uncommon electoral system — in which the top two vote-getters in a primary advance to the general election regardless of party — will prevent them from winning at least three House seats this fall. The seats – the 39th Congressional District, the 48th Congressional District, and the 49th Congressional District — are each located in the battleground suburbs of Orange County, where a plethora of Democratic candidates in each threatens to split the vote evenly and allow two GOP candidates to move on.

    McClatchy.

  204. 204
    Corner Stone says:

    The video at this tweet needs to be embedded.

    TheBeat w/Ari Melber
    ‏Verified account @TheBeatWithAri

    New: Trump says the Libya “model would take place if we don’t make a deal” with North Korea but if a deal is made “Kim Jong Un is going to be very, very happy”:

  205. 205
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    FTR, Adam –

    stated that Bob Mueller (who brought down John Gotti) is like an Italian mafiosi from a movie

    – it’s mafioso. Mafiosi is plural. /pedantissimo

  206. 206
    Roger Moore says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    The Baptists aren’t perfectly comparable to the Mormons. The Baptists are very up-front that they get their ideas from reading and interpreting the Bible. The Bible is naturally authoritative, but since it requires interpretation any given reading of it can always be abandoned as a result of fallible humans misreading God’s word. In contrast, the Mormons believe their prophet is actually directly in touch with God, so there’s much less wriggle room when it comes time to make up excuses for changing your mind. I suppose they can always claim that God has changed his mind, but that is a lot harder to sell than “those guys 100 years ago misread God’s word”.

  207. 207
    Amir Khalid says:

    A pox on Donald Trump, that walking insult to No. It is Ramadhan and I should not be saying harsh things. Let me say instead that it would serve America best if he got some of what Najib just got.

  208. 208
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Libraryguy: What actually happened there? Your landlord forgot to pay your mortgage?

    I don’t actually need anything from your store (we’re cutting down on ‘stuff’ in general), but I’m happy to throw a bit of money your way if you guys are in trouble. Do you have a paypal donation link or an email I can just send a bit of cash to?

  209. 209
    rikyrah says:

    @LAO:
    JOHN 👏 CRAWFORD 👏 BYTCH 👏

  210. 210
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Corner Stone: So… if KJU doesn’t make a deal, we’ll start a war. We also won’t accept any deal that KJU might find acceptable.

    Good to know. Gonna go dig that fallout shelter this weekend.

  211. 211
    Baud says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    You realize we didn’t actually start the Libyan war? The “Libyan model” threat is all kinds of stupid.

  212. 212
    Bill Arnold says:

    Just because this is the sort of thing the US press should be uncompromising about, The Forward:
    Aaron Schlossberg Calls Stranger An ‘Ugly F—king Foreigner’ In New Video

    Journalist Shaun King wrote on Twitter that 13 people have reported being harassed by Schlossberg — some of which were videotaped. On Wednesday, he was captured on camera berating customers at a Manhattan deli for not speaking English and threatening to call immigration agents on the deli’s Spanish-speaking employees.

  213. 213
    rikyrah says:

    @Mary G:
    Tee hee hee 😄

  214. 214
    Mandalay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷:

    What the fuck is wrong with Hayes?

    A good question. Just 24 hours ago he tweeted this before he suddenly found the need to be fair and balanced:

    At a certain point you run out of language strong enough to describe and condemn the president’s bigotry. It’s vile.

    I think Trump must have kidnapped his wife.

  215. 215
    Corner Stone says:

    @rikyrah: At first I was like, “Yeah, Joan Crawford was universally recognized to be a bitch. But what does that…ohhhh.”

  216. 216
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Roger Moore: Paul VI’s birth control encyclical Humanae Vitae was not issued ex cathedra, i.e., “from the throne [of Peter]”, & therefore does not invoke the doctrine of papal infallibility. Even the former Cardinal Montini recognized that (as Oliver Cromwell so pithily put it to the Church of Scotland) “in the bowels of Christ”, he might be wrong.

    Which BTW is the closest I’ve come to defending anything that the One Holy Caltholic & Apostolic Church (OHCAC) did from the death of Simon Peter to the resignation of Benedict-Arnold XVI…

  217. 217
    ruemara says:

    @catclub: Let’s never ask why people don’t see something obvious yet awful.

  218. 218
    Mandalay says:

    @Corner Stone: That may be my favorite Trump video ever. He is completely clueless on what the “Libya model” is, and seems to believe that it was Gaddafi getting kidnapped, sodomized and killed.

    This afternoon Bolton must be screaming at everyone he sees that Trump is a fucking moron, while everyone is Seoul is shitting their pants.

    Nice work Mr. President.

  219. 219
    Millard Filmore says:

    @Corner Stone:

    there’s no excuse for anyone reporting on those comments not to include the context of the question that prompted the rant.

    If you accept the proposition that some people are animals, then the anti-abortion argument about the sanctity of all unborn human life goes out the window.

  220. 220
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @Kay: For some reason this reminds me of a scene in last night’s episode of The Expanse:

    Prax the botanist is about to shoot the Mengelesque doctor who kidnaped his daughter intending to turn her into a hybrid monster.

    A gloved hand comes down gently on the gun, and Amos says softly, Get out of here, you’re not that guy.

    As Prax leaves to collect his daughter, the Mengelesque doc thanks Amos profusely.

    Amos turns back & says, I am that guy, & blows him into red jello.

    Kay, you may not be that person, but TenguPhule ain’t the only jackal who is.

    (BTW anyone who isn’t following The Expanse is missing outstanding SF that IMO blows your basic stupidhero movie out of the water.)

  221. 221
    Brachiator says:

    @Yarrow:

    My point was, there are plenty of things he has done that we don’t know about. The unknown people he has hurt through the decades. We know about the ICE stuff. It’s horrible. What don’t we know?

    He is president of the United States and trying to enact overtly racist laws. His public utterances energize racists and cause them to act out, putting people in danger. He has given his Justice Department and Homeland Security Department permission to interpret law and federal procedure in ways that deprive people of their civil and human rights.

    How is speculation about “what we don’t know” about his racist thoughts and dreams and past actions of value?

    Trump is a bad human being. But Trump the bad president is can hurt far more people. And he can do it legally.

  222. 222
    Roger Moore says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Anyone who does not think this person would have joined up with the Guard to shoot the hippies is fooling themselves.

    She would have happily cheered the Guard for shooting people and defended their actions, but she’s probably too chicken shit to shoot anyone herself.

  223. 223

    @Baud: This is my problem with the ‘jungle primary’.

  224. 224
    Origuy says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Lanny Davis to Debate Steve Bannon in Prague

    Dare I hope it’s in an upper-story room with a window?

  225. 225
    Roger Moore says:

    @Origuy:

    Dare I hope it’s in an upper-story room with a window?

    Haven’t there been enough defenestrations already?

  226. 226
    bookeater (formerly JosieJ) says:

    She noted that Kent State was the location where “four unarmed students were shot and killed by the government” – a reference to the 1970 incident where 28 Ohio National Guard clashed with Vietnam War protesters, firing shots that hit 13 protesters and bystanders.

    So she’s basically implying that more bullets flying around would have improved that situation?

  227. 227
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Baud: Oh, I know. But Trump doesn’t, so we’re working off what HIS understanding is.

  228. 228
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Roger Moore: I would be willing to accept another one if it is Davis and Bannon.

  229. 229
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Shana: Don’t recall the name of the episode, but here’s a bit of a reference:
    http://monkeetv.blogspot.com/2.....ction.html

    Peter Tork was once asked about some of his influences as a performer and he listed Danny Kaye high among them. His movie, The Court Jester, is a particular favorite of Peter’s (check out the “Vessel with the Pestle” routine!).

  230. 230
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: This was the best reply to that tweet!

  231. 231
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Roger Moore: What the hell are you going to do with 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester on campus? Do they have a moose problem at Kent State? Bison? I’m willing to entertain a conceal carry argument, but that means a concealed handgun. This is just stupid.

  232. 232
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Everyone knows about the wild boar infestation just east of Akron.

  233. 233
    Roger Moore says:

    @bookeater (formerly JosieJ):

    So she’s basically implying that more bullets flying around would have improved that situation?

    That seems to be the default NRA position on any situation*; more guns is guaranteed to result in a better outcome.

    *At least for white people.

  234. 234
    Roger Moore says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    She admits she only went with the long gun to make a point, and that a concealed handgun would be more sensible for everyday carry. And I guess she didn’t think she needed to guard her back because she had a photographer with her, but the whole thing is just stupid from top to bottom.

  235. 235
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: Pure typo. Thanks. I’ll fix it.

  236. 236
    Another Scott says:

    @Libraryguy: I’m getting an “Internal Server Error” on your site once I try to pay. It seems to be having trouble handing off to the PayPal server.

    :-(

    I hope it’s easy to fix, and I hope you’re able to get through this rough patch!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  237. 237
    Another Scott says:

    @Another Scott: Checkout worked now. All done. Hope it helps. Looking forward to the goodies!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  238. 238
    Another Scott says:

    @Kay: You convinced me!! ;-) Tell your new friend that you’re a big-time party fundraiser. I sent him some money.

    My mom’s family is from that district.

    Even if he doesn’t win this time, putting up a good fight makes the next time easier.

    Good luck!

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  239. 239
    toschek says:

    @Uncle Cosmo:

    Trump has never run anywhere, not once in his fat, privileged little life.

Comments are closed.