I met one of my heros today@Emma4Change pic.twitter.com/EQZYERiRGE
— James Shaw Jr. (@JamesShawJr9) May 12, 2018
Meeting the young adults of the Parkland incident so much fire and inspiration in their eyes was a great joy pic.twitter.com/DLPJ01K8e2
— James Shaw Jr. (@JamesShawJr9) May 12, 2018
Not only did we meet him, we won him a teddy bear out of a claw machine. It took @Emma4Change TWELVE tries but, for @JamesShawJr9, it was worth it. https://t.co/Msm25Nwole
— Diego Pfeiffer #NEVERAGAIN (@firepfeiffer1) May 13, 2018
Per the Washington Post:
… It was a change of scenery for James Shaw Jr., who wrestled an AR-15 from a gunman in a Waffle House in Tennessee last month, which authorities said likely stopped the spree that left four people dead.
The 29-year-old found himself in Florida on Saturday, trading the Waffle House for a Denny’s with some company — students from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High in Parkland.
“[T]he Most Legendary Breakfast ive ever had in my life,” Emma González said on Twitter afterward…
[Shaw] seems focused to keep going with his story beyond the drive.“Thank you great meeting you all, let’s keep inspiring and bringing ppl together,” he wrote on Twitter to the students…
Bonus note:
A Twitter story in three acts: pic.twitter.com/sIdsaHgQXq
— Sarah Lerner (@SarahLerner) May 13, 2018
rikyrah
Good Morning Everyone ???
NotMax
FYI.
Romney doesn’t seem to mention the other nasty, bigoted piece of ‘Christian” work who will be there, only the one who has assailed him personally..
Pete Downunder
A few days ago in Western Australia a grandfather shot and killed his wife, their daughter, four of her kids (his grandchildren) and then himself. The seven dead made it the worst mass killing in Australia since the mass shooting in Port Arthur, Tasmania in 1996 when Martin Bryant killed 35 and injured 23 more. As a result of the Port Arthur massacre, the Australian government essentially banned all guns and engaged in country wide buy back. While the US cannot go to that extreme, there is no legal reason why it cannot impose very strict limitations – such a single shot rifles and limited capacity handguns only. Perhaps these kids can make that happen.
Baud
@rikyrah: Good morning.
Baud
@NotMax:
That prophecy turned out to be true.
NotMax
Early returns, anyway, pointing to a shuffling of power in Iraq.
On another topic from the same area of the planet, hardliners flexing their muscles in Iran in the wake of Dolt 45’s rampant stupidity re: the JCPOA.
bystander
@NotMax: So glad we paved the way for another theocracy in the ME. Well worth the investment of blood and treasure.
Baud
@NotMax: Conservatives of all cultures use conflict with each other to promote themselves.
OzarkHillbilly
@NotMax: Meanwhile in Europe…
ETA
satby
Those are great pictures to start the day with. These young adults deserve every bit of support we can give them.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: Europe should nationalize Trump’s golf courses.
OzarkHillbilly
@Baud: Heh. That would get his attention.
satby
@rikyrah: Good morning rikyrah ?!
Barbara
@OzarkHillbilly: Every time you ask who wins, the answer is always Russia. President bought and paid for is working for Russia. Parochially, I venture that the impact on Boeing alone will flip the seat currently occupied by Dave Reichert — small consolation
I am heartened by the number of guys in that picture. Sometimes I worry with all the crazy Internet spaces occupied by men.
satby
NPR is all about the Jerusalem embassy opening, without mentioning the Xtianist speakers. NPR is also garbage.
OzarkHillbilly
Just finished reading Anne’s post from yestereve, Sunday Evening Open Thread: Look for the Helpers and this gave me a chuckle:
My Spanish born wife has had professors say the same thing to her.
debbie
It is kind of scary the Twitter hate Emma and David have generated. Pizzagate-level hate.
WereBear
@debbie: And why not? These happy faces and laudable goals expose them as the low-level crap they are.
They can’t even smile like these pictures, ever notice? They tend towards the “I’m showing you my teeth” style and their eyes remain kind of dead…
Barbara
@OzarkHillbilly: Nabokov was a master of English grammar and puns partly because it was not his native language. My daughter went through a Spanish immersion program and by high school she was asking her teachers esoteric questions about Spanish grammar that they had to research.
Baud
@OzarkHillbilly: The best English speaker here is from Malaysia.
Quinerly
May have been posted. Interesting and gossipy piece. http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/05/sean-hannity-donald-trump-late-night-calls.html
Baud
@satby: Today show briefly mentioned it.
OzarkHillbilly
@Barbara: The funny thing about my wife is that she still can’t write in her native language (Mallorcan, a dialect of Catalan) because the teaching of it was banned by Franco.
Quinerly
@Baud: entire segment yesterday on one of the NPR shows.
Just one more canuck
@Baud: unpossible
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
This morning, I’m reading some stuff about Qatar and the Russian oil company and bribes and blockades. I’ve heard of this before but it’s come up again because of the pictures Michael Avenatti posted yesterday of people in a Trump Tower elevator. Apparently one of them was from the Russian oil company which reportedly offered one of Trump’s guys a cut if a sale went through.
You see how confused I sound? And I’m interested but starting from zero knowledge. If the country is going to get outraged over this stuff, at some point, we need a clear, easy to take in narrative. It should probably have a hook sentence at the start that sums it up.
satby
@Baud: it’s a challenge to be a higher level TEFL teacher in Asia, because most high school students have the grammar rules down better than native English speakers. We’re there mainly to improve pronunciation and conversational skills by that stage. It’s humbling.
Edited to improve the grammar of that last sentence. ?
OzarkHillbilly
Pretty cool.
Baud
@satby: Just teach them how to use the nasty words correctly. They’ll be thrilled.
gene108
@NotMax:
Why are my tax dollars supporting a prayer service for the opening of an embassy? I don’t recall other embassy openings turning into a major prayer service.
Lapassionara
@Barbara: Maybe someone will explain why Trump is helping China save its telephone company. It looks like helping China is also a priority for him.
Meanwhile, a Harley-Davidson factory in KC has closed.
Good morning, everyone,
MJS
Great line on the Simpsons last night. Homer wants to leave Denmark, but Marge doesn’t, because she likes it there too much. Homer – “I want to go back to the greatest country on Earth, the United States of American, 1917 to 2016.”
Baud
@gene108: To be fair, that sort of thing isn’t usually newsworthy.
OzarkHillbilly
White House leakers leak about leaking
‘Nuff said.
Cheryl Rofer
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): I totally agree we need a simple narrative. We’re not there yet, and there may never be a simple narrative, because it looks to me like it’s entirely possible that the Russians sent out feelers to Donny’s empire from many directions and in many ways. We keep getting pieces of this, but not a master narrative. I’m playing with some of that and have a post in development, but I have one other piece I need to finish first, hopefully this morning.
What you are talking about may tie in with the Steele dossier, which says that Donny and company were to be paid off bigly from the sale of Rosneft (I think, it may have been another oil company). The connections so far look tenuous to me, though.
I can barely keep track of all the players and plot lines.
The bottom line, though, is that this administration has far too many Russian connections and far too many people indicted for serious financial crimes not to be doing something wrong. Big time.
Lee
From all accounts that newspaper article actually downplays the increase in business Ellen’s has seen.
It is really heartening to think the influence of the NRA has waned so much and so quickly and it was a bunch of kids/young adults that started it all.
gene108
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
Putin’s puppet works for me.
gene108
@Baud:
To be fair, this sort of thing probably doesn’t have the feel of a big tent revival meeting, either.
rikyrah
@debbie:
Because they are smart, articulate, fearless and walk in truth.
rikyrah
@Quinerly:
Morning to Poco and the tribe ??
satby
NPR just reported that 28 Palestinians have been killed in border clashes in Gaza provoked by the U.S. embassy move today alone.
Just a senseless waste of lives inspired by a viciously senseless action by the Traitor in Chief.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@debbie: I worry about them. They seem to be letting the hate roll off their backs, but they still have to feel it, particularly after surviving a traumatic event like the shooting. I admire the heck out of them.
@gene108: As a hook, you mean? I’ve heard worse
rikyrah
@Cheryl Rofer:
It sort of angers me when people talk about how ‘complicated’ this is.
It’s not complicated at all.
The President of the United States and most of his inner circle are traitors against this country, because they are bought and paid for assets of a hostile foreign country.
That’s not confusing in the least.
OzarkHillbilly
@satby: But an Israeli soccer team just changed their name to Beitar Trump Jerusalem because of trump’s ‘courageous’ actions. So you see? It all balances out.
rikyrah
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I worry about them too, but they have found a purpose. And, they are not alone.
Cheryl Rofer
@rikyrah: That’s sort of the bottom line I gave. It’s not a bad way to keep track of what’s being uncovered.
But Mueller needs stories that will stand up in court. And the rest of us need to be careful in our accusations.
I don’t disagree with you in a general way, but to convince others we need more. Mueller is getting it.
NotMax
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
It is complicated – the classic tangled web, especially so for those of us who are interested but not obsessive. A map with many side roads, cul-de-sacs, roundabouts and detours on it.
Once trials do begin and public testimony is made the journey ought to become not less complex but more understandable.
OzarkHillbilly
@rikyrah: I suspect the majority are just greedy soulless sycophants who are only in it for the money and don’t really care where it comes from.
rikyrah
@Cheryl Rofer:
I disagree with being careful with the accusations
Simply put?
There? aren’t ? enough ? coincidences ?in?the? Western ? World ?
For any other explanation to make sense.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@NotMax: When is Manafort’s first trial (the state one)? Is it June?
ETA: Google answered my question: July 10. We should get some information then.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@rikyrah: When I talk about this, I’m remembering Watergate. The opinion of the country solidified against Nixon when the tapes came out. Suddenly we heard the president engaging in the cover up of a criminal act. You couldn’t argue, and Nixon was done and gone.
I want Trump done and gone. I’m afraid the opinion of the country won’t gel unless there’s a clear, understandable story. I don’t think what we have now will do it. Most people are, at best, only vaguely aware of all the shady stuff.
NotMax
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
Offhand, dunno.
If it comes down to “You want it done right or you want it Tuesday?” I vote firmly for done right and hold no truck with those who are impatient.
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): State trial? Or do you mean the Federal case proceeding in the Virginia District?
Baud
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Plus, a lot of non-die-hard voters we need to persuade to turn against Trump were complicit in his election. They are going to be resistant to anything less than solid evidence.
Leto
@rikyrah: It’s not exactly complicated to us because we follow most of this material. And even for those of us who do follow most of it (thinking most of us here at BJ), it’s still a tangled web that we have difficulty tracking. For the average low voter info American? They need it laid out for them in color-by-number fashion, and even then we’re still going to have to hold their hand, dip the paint, move the brush…
Elizabelle
Good morning all.
Every day should begin with thinking about James Shaw Jr and Emma Gonzalez and all those making a difference for the better.
Glad to hear about Ellen’s Restaurant too.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@OzarkHillbilly: Yeah, that’s what I mean. The first one. I googled and got July 10
NotMax
@NotMax
To be more clear, when I said those who are impatient was not including you among them.
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
We’ve had that moment and yet trump is still here. sigh….
Baud
@NotMax: You talking to yourself again?
Tokyokie
@Barbara: Joseph Conrad did OK writing in his second language as well. Although I suppose right-wingers would point to Ezra Pound instead.
@gene108: You think the Israeli hosts would be as enthusiastic about the guest speakers if they were keenly aware that the Bible-thumpers only support Israel to the point of precipitating Armageddon and extinguishing all Jews?
satby
@Baud:
a number of them won’t believe even solid evidence, because they don’t believe solid evidence of anything that contradicts their world view. But they aren’t the majority in this country even if every single moron who voted for Drumpf stays unconvinced. We’re the majority, and once we energize the disengaged we will overwhelm the new know-nothings.
OzarkHillbilly
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): OK thanx. I just wanted to make sure I hadn’t missed something. Lord knows, that never happens to me.
Ksmiami
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): ok I’ll bite-“Since Trump is a total fraud in business, no American banks would lend to him so the Russians started the spigot through Deutsche Bank and now they own his ass.”
Baud
@satby: I agree when it comes to elections. When it comes to holding Trump accountable, we need more than our own people.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
I’m off to the gym. Thanks for the warning about NPR being on the embassy opening. I’ll listen to my Hamilton CD instead.
Leto
@satby: We had Lester Holt get him to admit that he fired Comey because of the Russia investigation. He admitted it to the Russian envoy he let into the Oval Office, and people still hem and haw. They’re all f’ing idiots.
Kay
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I think you know I share your take on the Russia interference- not a “nothingburger”, should have been revealed and explored prior to the election, etc. but I have to say Democrats aren’t running on it. Really none of them are. It’s almost like there’s a division of duties- they know the investigation continues and there will be further revelations and they’re leaving that in the purview of law enforcement/justice system. This seems smart to me, to focus on what they can control – their policy message – as opposed to what they can’t control- this tangled web of Russian oligarchs and conservatives (because it’s bigger than Trump- these connections go back to 2009 at least). The thing is they don’t know. No one knows, because we haven’t been told enough to make some kind of coherent case. It seems clear to me that this alliance between Putin’s policy objectives and the US Right’s policy objectives is much bigger than campaign funds or screwing with elections- these people agree. They agree on objectives. The US Right is allied with Putin’s Russia on a broad array of conservative policy objectives. That’s how Russia reached them. They reached them because they agree.
Democrats DO know their health care and wage and anti-corruption platform is broadly popular and so they’re running on that. They haven’t been doing badly, either. They’re winning a lot of elections on it. They’re trending in what I think is a good direction. They’ve dropped a lot of the abstract BS about “opportunity” that no voter understood or cared about and running on VERY practical issues. The loss in ’16 forced them to focus in on their strengths.
Quinerly
@rikyrah: waves and tail wags back to you from NC. John Lennon is holding down the homestead in St. Louis. Have a great day.
Kay
I’m surprised there hasn’t been more coverage of the US Today analysis where they read every Russia-sponsored election ad and found they were overwhelmingly focused on US racial divisions.
Because we’re getting into a chicken/egg situation. I don’t know where Putin’s Russia begins and US conservatives policy preferences begin. Did Russia exploit the racist political campaigns Republicans were already running or is this an actual alliance- Republicans share a lot of the same policy goals and tactics as Putin’s Russia?
This is bigger than Donald Trump. Russian political ads now mimic GOP political ads. Or the other way around.
O. Felix Culpa
@rikyrah:
Speaking of not being alone, did you see this splendid reaction to the woman calling the cops on a black BBQ in public park?
Massive Cookout Thrown in Park Where Cops Were Called On Black Family BBQ.
Montanareddog
@Tokyokie:
I am sure they are perfectly aware – the Israelis most likely view them as useful idiots.
Immanentize
@Kay: And, gas prices up another 6 cents this morning. It is going to be a weird summer.
Kay
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I’ve already personally witnessed how “Democrats” (well three Democrats) are handling this in terms of campaigning. It’s a big issue to the Dem base which is completely legit- no matter what the NYTimes says Dem base voters are permitted to discuss Trump/Russia and even demand their lawmakers take action on it. We’re allowed to have issues we care about, just like Republicans do. So if Dem political activists bring it up (and they do- again- they care about it) the Dem politician agrees but they’re not letting it become THE issue not for any nefarious reason but because they don’t think that’s their strongest hand to play.
Kay
@Immanentize:
People have to feel it before they’ll vote on it. All those stories we’re reading about fish producers in Maryland and soybean farmers? They’re feeling it.
Immanentize
@Kay: Agreed. And gas prices cut working people hard. Even working class white folks!
rikyrah
This made me LOL
https://twitter.com/Olivianuzzi/status/995861759113289728?s=19
Yarrow
@Cheryl Rofer: I disagree with your assessment that we don’t have a simple narrative. I agree with rikyrah‘s take that the narrative is simple:
Why is that so hard for people to understand? It seems pretty simple to me. Once you look at things from that perspective, everything makes sense. All their actions make sense.
What we don’t have are all the details to pull it together so we can say, “A did B, then C happened, then D.” Those details are going to have to go back to 1987, so it’s going to be a long story of explaining how the Russians cultivated Trump as an asset and roped in various players through the years, like creating bonds with evangelicals, the NRA and so forth and used our free press against us.
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
Rikyrah’s sentence that I quoted above seems pretty good to me. We could also go with something like, “Our President is a traitor” or “The Republican party sold American to our enemy.” Things like that work too.
KSinMA
@O. Felix Culpa: Excellent!
MomSense
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I think that was a teaser/warning shot from Avenatti that he would make public the information he has about this if they don’t come forward.
Yarrow
@rikyrah:
I’m with you. It’s not complicated. Trump, his family, his associates, his cronies, top GOP and a lot of lower level GOP are traitors. Pretty simple to understand.
Leto
@Kay: This is bigger than Trump because the Russians were deploying this type of disinformation during the run up to the Brexit elections, as well as a few years before that. The political disinformation campaign is both separate and connected to all the financial corruption involved with Trump/2016 US election. Even if Trump didn’t make win the GOP primary, Putin still would’ve attacked us in an attempt to weaken HRCs overall position. Just like Trump took it personally when Obama made fun of him at the White House correspondents dinner, Putin took it personally when HRC (as Sec of State) told the world that the Russian elections were rigged. The simple answer is he’s an ex-KGB agent doing what he was trained to do. He wants to make Russian Great Again, and this type of campaign is his bread and butter. Republican’s assault on our basic democratic values/institutions, as well as most of the American public just not giving a shit about it, just make his job easier. Hopefully more of the country is waking up. This Nov is a big test to that.
Yarrow
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
I don’t just want Trump done and gone. That won’t really solve the problem. The bigger problem is that the GOP is filled with traitors. As an entity the RNC was laundering money for Russia. We cannot just take out Trump and everything will be fine. The larger issue has to be dealt with. Mueller is rolling them up like the criminal mob that they are and he’s got plenty of experience in taking down the mob.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Lee: This story is great. We just so happen to be currently visiting our family in Sanger, TX as I write this. Now that our Mother’s Day obligations are filled the next few days will be our chance to get out and explore scenic drives, hunt for some local wildflowers, try some breweries and museums etc. Now we have a good spot to hit in downtown Dallas.
I must say, I’m surprised at how little MAGA/NRA etc., bullshit I’m seeing. Even up here in the sticks I haven’t seen a single red hat yet. Whereas last year they were much more common. Also seen a healthy amount of Beto signs! Hopefully these are good omens.
Leto
@Yarrow: As Baud said upthread, a lot of people have Trump vote stink on their hands so getting them to admit they helped usher in this griftocracy is hard. Better to focus on local issues to get D’s into office who will be able to take direct action against the corruption by controlling the agenda of the House/Senate. Do that and we can start to fix shit, ranging from obvious corruption by government officials to having real Congressional investigations. We can also lob in a few grenades by explaining how Trump/Griftco are selling out the American people. Work small, go big.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
I see no contradiction in those statements, and the evidence seems clear. Republicans have been running this kind of racist campaign for all of American history. Russia threw in a lot of financial support, provided stolen strategic information, and greatly increased the online presence of these strategies. Different Republican groups and individuals had/have different levels of direct acceptance of this help. The base is happy another white supremacist nation is helping them put down the darkies. The NRA, Mercers, and some of the people in Trump’s campaign seem to have been actively talking to Russia about receiving support. Others in the Trump campaign were even doing so in a quid pro quo fashion, or were actual established Russian agents. Blackmail is probably involved somewhere, but I haven’t seen anyone under Russian influence who would need to be blackmailed. They’re all people who would welcome it with open arms.
MomSense
@Leto:
Putin is also a cheater. The way they cheated at the Sochi Olympics (watch Icarus to see the details) was just so pathetic. The whistle blower makes an interesting comment in the documentary that by helping Putin to cheat and achieving such good results at that Olympics, he thinks it helped give Putin the boost he needed to invade Ukraine.
Icarus is a fascinating documentary. Cheating, mysterious deaths, military parades, and all the rest over sports.
Yarrow
@Kay:
If you have read any of Adam’s posts on the subject or done any reading on Russia’s tactics in the information arena, you’ll remember that they always exploit already existing cracks. They didn’t create anything. It is not an actual alliance–only an alliance until it’s long longer in Russia’s interest for it to be so.
As for exploiting already existing cracks, see also the split in the Democrats last election. Expect plenty more of that in 2018 and 2020.
MomSense
@Kay:
I recently listened to an interview with Michael Hayden on Intelligence Matters. They discussed this very topic. You don’t create the rifts when you conduct psyops, you exploit the existing rifts. Russia exploited our racism and sexism perfectly.
japa21
The article on Ellen’s is interesting. That is not the only business that shows you can be political in a liberal way and benefit. I read that and immediately thought of Penzeys.
Cheryl Rofer
@Kay: The links between the Russians and the NRA are finally being investigated. That’s another avenue that predates Trump. NPR is doing a good job on this and some of the other Russian stuff, but I don’t have a link up in my tabs at the moment. We need to expose them all and bring them down.
GregB
I find a couple of things very fascinating.
One is how the entire political right and even much of the media has pooh-pooed the ability of the Russian/Trump media info war to have effected the results of the election. Mind you this is the same right wing that has spent decades decrying the liberal medias and their ability to shape opinions and cause people to behave in ways they don’t like. For instance, there isn’t a gun problem in the US, it is a media problem. People see and hear things in the media and that causes them to act violently.
Secondly, the same folks who have claimed the Russian/Trump info war didn’t cause any change are currently in the midst of a media campaign to tell us that their shining lights of the right wing dark web are under assault by the liberal media and they are under assault by Twitter attacks. They are under siege and they ate suffering ill effects from sustaining criticism from social medias.
What is it? The liberal media is powerful and influential yet the Russian/Trump info war had zero impact.
Two, liberals and lefties need to suck it up and get over the silly notion of Russian media influence and their silly attempts at divisive media manipulation and also too, Kevin Williamson is being torn asunder by the powerful Twitter attacks and Bari Weiss thinks this is one of the most powerful propagandistic campaign ever.
Quinerly
BBC reporting 41 Palestinian protesters dead, including a 12 year old boy.
Yarrow
@Leto: Work on all sorts of levels. Electing Dems is essential, so whatever works to make that happen is what needs to be done.
Brachiator
@Cheryl Rofer:
What Mueller needs is evidence of criminal activity, and he is pursuing that.
This is separate from any political narrative that might cause outrage among voters. And here it is so simple that even Trump understands it. He keeps saying that there was no collusion and no attempt to influence the election.
Yes, there was. And bribery of public officials. Possible payoffs to electoral candidates (Stein, Sanders).
If Mueller can gather enough evidence to prove his case, I think he can lay it out clearly for a jury and for the public.
Kay
@MomSense:
Thanks. That’s the one question. But I’m asking another. I’m asking if Russian conservatives and US conservatives share policy goals and that’s why they seem to be such a perfect match, that’s why they JOINED in exploiting racial divisions in the US.
Because this isn’t a tactic. This is actual policy. Trump didn’t just exploit racial divisions. He appointed people who believe black and brown people are actually lesser and the people he appointed are acting on that. John Kelly really believes rural Mexicans with less education are INFERIOR to the rural Eupropeans with less education who are his relatives. Kelly believes that and so does Sessions and then they act on it. So my question is are Russian conservatives sympathetic to this point of view? I think it’s clear they are. They didn’t want “chaos”- they wanted a United States that looks like Russia.
Cheryl Rofer
@Yarrow: The problem is that if you can’t back that up with facts all the way down, the opposition will find the weak points and destroy the narrative. And the details of the narrative matter. Was Trump an idiot real estate developer who was cultivated by the Russians, or is he a Mob boss making an agreement with another Mob boss (Putin)? It looks to me like the facts available publicly support either narrative. That’s what I’m working on for a post.
Kay makes excellent points about the politics. We don’t know how Mueller’s investigation will turn out, how many more surprises Avenetti or someone else will come up with. And some of the surprises could be in favor of Trump, even if they haven’t been so far. Democrats have a solid social program to run on, and it’s always better to have a positive vision than just run against the bad guys.
Frankensteinbeck
@Brachiator:
THIS. Mueller is pursuing a courtroom strategy. People here often confuse that with a political strategy. They are wildly different. Stuff like public opinion is irrelevant.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Kay: White paranoia over the threat of skeery Black/Brown people, is so prominent that Putin could see it all the way from his lawn. That White Fear has been a crucial element of just about every Republican victory since Nixon, couldn’t have been lost on him and his KGB ratfucking operation, and they customized their attacks appropriately. It’s almost comically ironic that while much of America was (and still is determined) to see Trump’s appeal through a lens of Economic Anxiety™, that Putin knew all along that it was racial fear and resentment all the way down. He even managed to see and target/exploit the racism of the Wilmer Revolution (something that most of (White) Americans still refuse to see/admit.) Of course Putin didn’t even need to do a sophisticated historical review going back to 1860, all he had to do was witness the collective freak-out that America had over Obama and BlackLivesMatter. All he had to do was witness the way his orange-faced asset felt as a (sad) representative of the feelings of a whole lot of bigoted Americans. Putin saw that 40% of American voters would pull the lever for Racism no matter how ridiculous the candidate…in fact, the more ridiculous and offensive, the better. Putin knew us better than we knew ourselves, and planned accordingly.
tobie
@MJS: I didn’t know the Simpson’s were still producing new TV episodes. So good to hear this!
Uncle Ebeneezer
@MomSense: THIS
Yarrow
@Kay: “Conservatives” the world over want similar things. Racism and abuse is common to all of them.
Kay
Democrats right now remind me of Democrats in 2004. “The base” (again, legit, they’re the base and they’re allowed to have strong opinions) wanted anti-Bush campaigns but “the voters” weren’t there yet. They got there but it took until 2006. Voters caught up to the base, which takes a while because voters are less engaged than the base.
Democrats didn’t have the anti-Bush argument nailed because they didn’t have the series of events and facts yet. They’re in the same position with Russian interference. They can’t make this argument yet because they (and we) don’t know enough yet to present it coherently and quickly. It isn’t yet available to them.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Kay:
Given the popular sentiment towards LGBTQ-phobia and the fact that the Russian population is mostly White, I think the safe bet is: Yes.
Waynski
@Quinerly:
Fear not. Javanka’s on the job.
Kay
@Yarrow:
I want more focus on this because I do not believe that the Russian government put all this effort into this with the idea that they would just let it spin out in chaos, they might win, they might lose.
They want something past chaos. They want the United States to LOOK like something when this is over. I imagine they want it to look like Russia.
Kay
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Well, then, let’s say that. It isn’t (only) that the Russian government wanted “chaos”- they wanted the United States to be more like Russia, because they have ideological and political goals. It’s a much harsher thing to say and it will hurt a lof of feelings on the Right but this is shaking out to look more and more like US conservatives share a heck of a lot more with Russian conservatives than love of Donald Trump. They AGREE on a lot of things.
Yarrow
@Cheryl Rofer: We are working on multiple levels here. An overriding story is important to help people understand what is going on. We don’t have to have all the facts to make the case in that arena and get people thinking along those lines.
I also agree that it’s important to run on other things. I wouldn’t advise Democrats to run only against Trump/Putin. That’s a bad strategy.
As for Trump being a mob boss, I would not say that is the case at all. Putin is the mob boss and Trump is useful to Putin and allowed to behave as a mob boss to a certain extent because it’s useful to Putin. Since Trump has never once criticized Putin or Russia, it’s pretty clear who the boss is.
germy
The rabbi who blessed jared & ivanka:
Yosef has a history of questionable remarks, suggesting women who dressed immodestly were “animals” and claiming non-Jews were forbidden to live in Israel.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Yarrow: Exactly.
Kay
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Okay, and I don’t mean to beat this to death, but what if “Putin knew us better than we knew ourselves” because Putin shares these views and these policy preferences? That’s not “chaos”. That’s an ideological and political alliance between Russia’s conservative political bloc and US conservative’s political bloc. They want the same things.
tobie
I just spent the weekend with two couples, all Trump voters. They are all blue collar, small business owners, who have worked their way into the middle-class, though they identify strongly with the white working class. (They love Roseanne, for instance, and think she’s the incarnation of authenticity.) One way the Republican party has stroked their egos for decades is to refer to them as businessmen, job creators, the engine of the economy, etc. They are extremely parochial in their outlook, unaware of and uninterested in the larger world, but also incredibly sensitive if it seems like one values experts over them. As far as they’re concerned they are the engines of the economy and we should be listening to them. One of the many crazy things they’d like to see again: chain gangs in prison.
Zelma
@Leto: just did a tour of Loch Ness andculloden. driver has done at least 80 tours with Americans in the past year. Only three admitted to voting for trump. Interesting. I’ve been largely without internet access for over a week. It’s been both nerve racking and relaxind
Yarrow
@Kay: Kay, you need to read Adam’s posts. A lot of what you are asking he is addressing in those. Or, ask your question in comments in his posts and he will answer it.
Barbara
@Lapassionara: I think that chip maker is being used as fodder for negotiations around other trade issues with China. There is no method, these are just opportunistic tactics used as post hoc justification to hide whatever the real underlying reason might be. And I am sure it is rather galling to European countries that this demonstrated flouting of the sanctions would go unpunished while their own companies are threatened with sanctions. Really, the Europeans should call Trump’s bluff. There are a lot of American companies that export into Europe and that depend on European components, not to mention European companies that employ Americans in American operations.
Jeffro
@Yarrow: “they are corrupt to the core, and so that’s why they were so easy for Russia to subvert”
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Kay: I think this is accurate. They wanted Trump for political reasons, but their country has alot of the same bigotry as ours so they want alot of the same policies that T-voters want. Though I still think they would have tried to exploit/meddle in our elections even in a hypothetical world where America didn’t share their bigotry. My hunch is that it was selfish/Nationalism/power was driving them, with shared bigotry being a convenient, additional overlap.
Kay
@Yarrow:
I do read his posts. I’m talking about the general way this is being presented- that Russia interfered to elect Trump and congressional Republicans because they wanted “unrest” or “chaos”. It’s becoming much clearer than that. It’s becoming clear that this is a specific POLICY alliance- on guns, on immigration, on a lack of regulation and rampant corruption and self-dealing and maybe most notably on “social issues” and social issues are really civil rights issues. Calling them “social issues” diminishes them. They’re civil rights.
Is the US far Right aligned with the Russian Right on civil rights? Because that’s a much bigger problem then Donald Trump. That will be hard as nails to beat.
Leto
@Kay: Why state what’s been obvious since 1917? Of course Russia wants the US to be more like them. Russia wants the entire world to be more like them. We had a Cold War over this concept, and it’s re-emerging from the ashes in a new form. This again goes back to most of what Adam has published regarding this subject, in that “chaos” (real/perceived) gives the Russians more room to maneuver across the entire spectrum, unimpeded. You have the French/EU threatening retaliatory sanctions against the US if the US reimposes sanctions. You have the UK still going through the Brexit debacle (again, aided by Russia). You have the US administration run by a nationalist who’s destroying American economic/diplomatic power as fast as he can (again… aided by Russia). These are just a few of the obvious examples.
Simple “chaos” gives him incredible room to maneuver, both overtly and covertly. If he gets additional political gain from us (lifting Russian sanctions, for example), that’s just a bonus.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Well, that would work against the ‘ economic anxiety’ trope, Kay.
Plus, proving that there were racial appeals, would fight against the latest trope of ‘You Democrats talking about the racism from the other side, is why they voted for Dolt45.’
rikyrah
@Kay:
Not either/or
Both/And Kay
Racism is as old as the original sin of slavery in this country.
Southern Strategy, anyone?
rikyrah
@O. Felix Culpa:
that was funny….
Patricia Kayden
@Baud: True.
Kay
@Yarrow:
I can’t get past the fact that there was Russian interfernece on behalf of GOP congressional members.
That’s not chaos at all. That’s a policy alliance. They wanted specific laws and they worked to elect the people who would get them. Bigger than “sanctions” and bigger than their personal self-interest. A way the world should look. A US that is more like Putin’s Russia and less like Obama’s “America”.
Brachiator
@Leto:
Putin’s Russia is not the Soviet Union.
Nor would Putin be as successful as he is without the active collusion of the GOP leadership. And Trump.
rikyrah
@Kay:
Elections have consequences. What did they think was gonna happen?
I have no sympathy, because it didn’t have to be this way.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@Yarrow:
Agreed, though I do think that it can be a part of the message in select areas. For example D-39 in CA has a Top-Two primary and several Dems on the ballot (enough that there’s a real potential that we might f*** ourselves by dilluting the vote so that 2 R’s end up on the November ballot.) What we need is big Dem voter turnout. So in a case like that I think it does make sense to remind Dem voters that Russia investigations will be almost DOA if we fail to take back the House. And if a Dem does make it to the November ballot, it’s likely to be a guy who is fairly conservative so we will need to remind Dem voters of why it will be so important to suck-it-up/hold-their-noses etc. Even so, it shouldn’t be the ONLY message, but definitely in the mix.
rikyrah
@Yarrow:
ICAM
RICO these traitorous muthaphuckas
GregB
Watching the goings on in Israel and Gaza and boy oh boy, Trump is really sticking it to the elites. Poor Gazans stuck in an economically strangled corner of the wealthiest and most militarily powerful nation in the region getting mowed down as the Israeli and American ruling elite hosts a big cocktail party.
Frankensteinbeck
@Kay:
This is irrelevant. Look at the special elections. We don’t need a nationwide narrative about Trump being criminal. We need our voters to be angry and motivated, and we need to help them vote. Both of those things have been happening without that narrative, and happening BIG time. I’m pretty sure they’re not motivated by Trump being a criminal, either. They’re motivated by seeing extreme racism, bigotry, and destroying the services they depend on win the election and become an existential threat.
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Yes. Overwhelmingly, even among liberals, white people do not want to face how bigoted our nation is. Historians are going to wonder how the Hell this wasn’t blindingly obvious. It’s not hidden, we’ve trained ourselves to not see it, to never, ever, EVER accuse someone of racism or sexism if we can find any other explanation.
@Kay:
No, they don’t. Putin doesn’t want the United States to be more like Russia. He wants the United States to not be the biggest threat stopping him from putting back together the Soviet Empire. That is as concrete a goal as you get. It has lots of details, like removing the US from international negotiations that Russia can then dominate, letting him protect Assad, reducing rebelliousness in his own population (America’s corruption is a big talking point there), and just maybe making NATO so weak and uncertain he can get away with invading the Baltics. ‘Chaos’ and ‘delegitimizing the American political system’ all assist that. A Republican Party that likes Russia, cripples America economically, and actively opposes the kinds of diplomacy the rest of the world wants assists that. Actually getting Trump elected is a gold mine for him. All this shit about the American century ending? THAT is the result he wants, because it helps him directly achieve all his goals. Adam has said all this stuff repeatedly.
Kay
@Leto:
I don’t think it’s at all obvious to ordinary voters. I think they have to leap over a 30 year belief that Republicans are anti-Russia.
We’re asking them to ditch everything they have heard since Reagan on Republicans/Russia. This is a radically new way for US voters to look at this relationship. We’re telling them “forget all about the Cold War- actually US GOP lawmakers and Russia’s lawmakers share a lot of ideological beliefs”.
That was the NRA pitch in Russia. “We’re a lot like you!” Meaning “Russian conservatives”.
bluefoot
@O. Felix Culpa: The thing that just kills me about the original incident is that it was at Lake Merritt. Back in the 90s, I lived a couple blocks from the lake, and it was such a mixed neighborhood – you couldn’t tell which kids went with which parents, and if you tried to guess, you’d probably be wrong. The park and the path around the lake was always filled with all kinds of people. You’ve got to be a special kind of racist jackass to call the cops on black folk enjoying their own park.
Mike J
@rikyrah: A very Psych answer. I’ve heard both.
Uncle Ebeneezer
@rikyrah: Yup. And as the amazing book Stamped From the Beginning (which I just started) shows, it goes all the way back to the earliest days on our country. This books is so good that I’m actually planning to go get a notebook, and start reading it again while making some timelines/charts of the evolution of racist concepts.
Leto
@Brachiator: Putin’s Russia isn’t the Soviet Union, but Putin wants the Soviet Union back just with him in charge. How many articles have been linked about how Putin wants to bring Russia back to it’s former status in the world? And yes, active GoP collusion. This also happened in the UK, was attempted in the Netherlands, LaPen in France… Are you a Western style democracy? Expect to be attacked. You will have active collaborators who don’t care they’re backed by Russia, as long as they win. The general chaos theory is still solid.
Yarrow
@Kay: It’s both. Chaos gives Russia cover to act and if the “world’s policeman” and “last superpower” gets taken out or at least sidelined then it’s all good for them.
You are talking about taking on a world order run by oligarchs where the rich exploit the poor. Russia right now is working on behalf of the rich. Racism, sexism, equality of all kinds–those are things the oligarchs don’t like. They don’t want equality. They want to be rich men who run everything.
rikyrah
@Cheryl Rofer:
I still call foul on this.
Maybe because I’m part of a group who has had their patriotism consistently questioned, even though we are the group that had to find the REASONS to believe in America, and have put forth our entire existence in this country pushing America toward what IT SAYS that it is….
THE.TREASON.IS.THE.THING.I.CAN’T.GET.PAST.
YES, run on healthcare.
YES, run on saving the American Social Safety Net.
YES, run on climate change.
YES, to all of that.
BUT, Democrats shouldn’t even be letting Republicans UTTER the word PATRIOTISM, considering that we have a foreign asset of a hostile foreign government in the White House.
The TREASON part bothers me, and Democrats need to run on it TOO.
Mike J
@MomSense: There was a story last week about Putin scoring 5 goals against the Russian national hockey team.
cintibud
One thing to think about when saying that Dems need to be crying from the rooftops that Trump is a traitor and the GOP is complicit.
Remember in 2004 we had a candidate who was decorated for bravery under fire, even though he had family connection that could have prevented him from being in harms way. He was running against another man who DID use his family connections to jump to the front of the line to get a cushy, protected position AND THEN didn’t show up for well over a year! Slam duck, right? Didn’t work out so well.
Things have changed since then, but there is a reason for some strategic caution. Ask Dan Rather
Leto
@Kay: I’m just going to say, I don’t really care about “ordinary” American voters. They’re pretty much f’ing clueless as to what’s happening not only in the world, but even at a local level. How many times have you told us, “they’re not worried about X; they’re worried about putting food on the table, and getting Jenny to dance recital, about making the house payment, etc, etc, etc…” and you want them to pay attention to anything concerning strategic level moves and how those moves affect the international order that’s been upheld over the last 80 years? You want them to “leap over” that the GOP used to be anti-Russian, when we can’t even get them to “leap over” that the GOP is anti-USA.
@Frankensteinbeck: This. All of this.
tobie
@Barbara:
I’m reminded that for decades the Israeli left called on the world to support them by boycotting Israel for the actions of its rightwing government. Not much happened. Of late I’ve been feeling the same way about the world’s posture toward the US. Europe, China, Korea, Japan, and several Middle Eastern states could bring down Trump & the GOP if they would act in concert to impose penalties on the US for withdrawing from the Paris Climate Accord, for instance. But they won’t. We’re really alone.
GregB
Pardon the RU link.
But I am sure that Putin would love to see the US descend into a humiliating chaotic mess.
Just like Russia in 1993.
Yarrow
@Kay:
Yes. It’s shocking when you see it that way. Which is why we have to keep hammering it home. It’s TRUTH. It’s FACT. Keep repeating it. People are slow. They need to hear things over and over. Ask them to explain, if they don’t think Trump is doing Putin’s bidding, what of Trump’s actions actually are against Putin and Russia. They’ll have nothing. Keep after it.
When the scales finally fall from their eyes it’s going to happen quickly and they’re going to be mad as hell that they were lied to. Not everyone, of course. There will always be those dead-enders. But it will happen. Their country, our country, Republicans sold us out. It’s appalling. People will see it and they are going to be very angry when they do.
Leto
@MomSense: That’s one documentary I’ve been meaning to watch; it’s in my Netflix queue and I just haven’t gotten to it yet. Soon!
@Zelma: My wife and I loved Scotland when we were there. Hope you continue to enjoy your time!
Matt McIrvin
@Kay: I think they know it and have accepted it, because they see Russians as white and that trumps everything. The evangelicals had been converted to a pro-Putin stance years before Trump; they saw Putin as the strong leader we needed here.
Kay
@Frankensteinbeck:
I’m uncomfortable with that level of certainty. I don’t think “we know”. if we knew we wouldn’t have been completely unprepared for Russian interference in the election. If “we know” then there’s no need for a Mueller investigation. If “we know” then there wouldn’t be almost daily revelations about the extent of this. We don’t know, and while that’s difficult to deal with it also seems to be true. Seems. Because we don’t know.
I’m not sure of what anyone “knows” at this point. Comey was running the FBI during this period and he said in his testimony that Putin hates Clinton. WTF? The director of the FBI sees this as some personal venedeta? He should know a lot, right? He doesn’t seem to. He’s almost casting around for theories. All of them are.
Kay
@Matt McIrvin:
Right, and there was lots of political commentary on that “who woulda thunk it! Righties are pro-Putin!”
That’s why I object to this attitude that “we all knew” all of this. No, I don’t think we did. We’re just now getting our arms around it and that means we have a good 5 years before average voter even gets an inkling.
Yarrow
@Kay:
Kay, you know that Comey isn’t going to say everything he knows during his testimony. He had already started the investigation before Trump fired him. He knows plenty. He’s certainly not going to derail the investigation that Mueller took over by blabbing about it in open testimony.
It’s true that Putin hated Clinton. It’s also true that it wasn’t a personal vendetta against her. He didn’t like her because he knew what she would do if she became president. So he worked against her because that was in his interests. It’s not complicated.
MomSense
@Leto:
You have to watch it. I watched it as soon as it was released on Netflix. I had no idea what it was but it started with cycling and doping and I have always loved cycling. Then it morphed into a much different story that was so compelling and offered such insights into the Russian operation we are living through.
Yarrow
@Kay:
Can you explain what you mean in this sentence? Who is “we?” What did “we all” “know?” What is “all of this?”
Kay
@Yarrow:
My approach would be “more will be revealed”. I would discourage Democrats from taking a position of “we all know exactly what transpired here and all of the players and objectives” because they DON’T know.
I think they have to do the most difficult thing, which is let it play out until they have better and more comprehensive information.
They’re not there yet.
schrodingers_cat
@Frankensteinbeck: I also think one needs to remember that this is a very large country and a single narrative does not fit every geographic region or every demographic. Its not just the main stream pundits that make this error and make sweeping blanket statements. The truth of the matter is that T did not win even 50% overall. We have to stop behaving like the entire country agrees with the Charlottesville Tiki Torch brigade. They don’t. We outnumber them. That’s why they are running scared.
Leto
@MomSense: Will do! We’re almost in the summer TV drought, so this fits in perfectly. The first time I saw any mention of this was when it was nominated for an Academy Award. I love cycling too, so after seeing what it was about I put it in the queue.
Cheryl Rofer
@Yarrow: I agree, but we still don’t know what the overriding story is, beyond that too many people in the administration had too much to do with Russia and some of them have been indicted for that. You may disagree with the idea of Trump as a mob boss, but I want to put the evidence together. I may find that it doesn’t fit. But I don’t see anything against it yet.
Kay
@Yarrow:
Sure. This:
What if it’s different than that? I feel like there’s this settling on a motive before we know what happened. Just leave the motive undetermined until you have “the actions”- we’re jumping to “why” before we know “what” and jumping to why blinds iinquiry into “what happened”. Don’t narrow it yet. It’s uncomfortable but just keep motive or objectives open for a while until we have some of WHAT they did.
This is oversimplified but it’s as if you told me “he killed him for the life insurance” and I said “but did he kill him?” and you said “well, I don’t know- not sure, but something bad happened to him” Don’t give it a motive at all. We can figure that out later.
Yarrow
@Kay: There is room for both types of approaches. People like me \see the larger narrative and will keep speaking out about Republicans being traitors. People like you who are more cautious and will use the “we don’t know everything and more will be revealed” tactic. Both are useful.
Even among elected Dems you see various approaches. I wouldn’t advise a candidate to scream about treason because it will derail their campaign. It’s probably good for people who are in safe seats or who aren’t up for election this time to be louder about it so we have some people leading. Like I said, room for various approaches.
Cheryl Rofer
@Kay: Or Kim Jong Un. ?
Yarrow
@Kay: I don’t really care what Russia’s motive is, honestly. Russia did what they did, is doing what they’re doing, for whatever reasons. Pick a reason or don’t. My interest is in stopping the treason.
It’s clear that getting the US sidelined is good for Russia. That may or may not be their only goal or even a goal. Who knows. I don’t really care. I am interested in what our politicians are doing. Those are the people we can affect. It’s much more interesting to me to figure out why they did what they did than why Russia does anything. Why did they take Russian money? Why did they sell us out? And even that isn’t all that interesting. The why is much less interesting to me.
Maybe we need to know the “why” to fix it but right now I just want traitors to pay.
Leto
@Kay: I don’t think Dems are taking that position. What they’re saying is: “See that 300ft column of smoke? There’s probably a fire there. We should go look at that. See all those people with flamethrowers? We might want to talk to them, as they’re all running away from the smokey area.” So far we’re being stymied from investigating the fire, but it’s it’s just one of the myriad of reasons why it’s important for us to retake the controls of government, from the local to national level.
Gelfling 545
@satby: A friend mentioned at dinner yesterday that Macron had a better command of English than Trump. Led me to think how many foreign heads of state are multilingual and how few Presidents have been in the “modern” era. Most of those presidents could at least speak Englush fluently, unlike Trump. (Ok, Bush 43 was borderline. )
Yarrow
@Cheryl Rofer: My impression is that Trump acts like a mob boss. He deals with people in that manner. He requires tribute. He’s got a fixer. He is higher up than some of them, that’s for sure. But he’s not THE mob boss. Trump is unfailingly obsequious to Putin and Russia. He has yet to speak out against them. It’s clear who’s in charge.
They all behave like they’re in the mob, so that analogy is solid. It’s just that Trump is lower level and Putin is the top dog.
Cheryl Rofer
@Kay: Exactly.
Brachiator
@Leto:
Putin wants to restore Russia, or the Russian Empire. This is clear, and supported by many foreign policy articles. Again, this is not the same thing as the restoration of the Soviet Union.
Without the feeble threat of the failed ideology of communism, Putin is not much of a world threat. And despite all the fearmongering, Putin’s regime, which depends upon his domination of an unstable confederation of oligarchs and criminal gangs, he is not much of a long term threat to Europe.
But he has caused a lot of mischief, and will continue to do so for a while, because corruption, bribery, and chicanery can work magic for a time, but can be defeated if people wise up (granted, this ain’t always easy).
One of Putin’s problems is that none of what he does to Europe or to the US creates stability within Russia. So, there is a chance that his empire will collapse around him even as he plays Trump and the US for fools.
Leto
@Kay: But we already have the “what”: Russian interference in the American electoral process. Remember the intelligence community assessment that stated: yes, the Russians did interfere. Did they assess the impact that had? No, that wasn’t their mandate. Now we’re on to the “why”. And we’re seeing that play out in real time.
Gelfling 545
@rikyrah:
“Birds of a feather
Flock together.
And so do pigs and swine.
Rats and mice shall have their choice
And so shall I have mine “
Leto
@Brachiator: Ok, I see what you’re saying. Agreed. Yes, Putin doesn’t have a transition plan. It’s going to be interesting what happens to Russia once he leaves office (via a pine box). I’m hopeful something better comes out of the chaos that will follow.
Sort of O/T but I don’t know if I’m going to watch the World Cup this year. Sort of a protest. John Oliver had a piece on two weeks ago about how Russia has basically authorized/trained goon squads as roving “police” for the upcoming event. Russian soccer hooliganism was on full display during the 2016 Euro Cup in France, but I think it’s going to get even worse this summer.
schrodingers_cat
I don’t understand why it is so hard to believe that Putin wants to give the United States a bloody nose.
As the President T is diminishing America’s soft power, which is going to directly impact its economic power and its place in the world. A weakened NATO, a weakened America is what Russians have wanted since the Cold War Days.
Brachiator
@rikyrah:
Makes sense. The midterms should be easy. The Republicans were in charge and shut the Democrats out. And the Republicans failed.
They promised to repeal and replace the Affordable Car Act with something better. They lied. They made things worse and then ran away.
They promised to fix the economy. They lied. They didn’t bring coal jobs back to West Virginia. They haven’t brought prosperity back.
Their tax reform was a giveaway to the wealthy. The Democrats should promise tax reform that helps all Americans and which protects Social Security.
The Republicans let the president fill cabinet positions with his wealthy cronies who know nothing about the agencies they head up. The Democrats will insist that agencies be staffed with people who know their jobs.
You can throw in all the Trump is a traitor stuff on top of this.
stinger
@Ksmiami: Not bad.
Brachiator
@Yarrow:
Because it was there.
Because they don’t care about us.
Peale
@Brachiator: One of my worries is that Americans, by and large, don’t understand very basic things about their political system. The press has portrayed all of these things – ACA Votes, Tax Reform, Raising the Debt Ceiling, etc. – as Trump vs. Pelosi and Schumer. Like the Democrats are actually in charge of Congress. I’m concerned about these soft headed voters thinking the Dems have already been sent to Congress to stop Trump so we don’t need any more. The reason for this is that there are 180 members of the House on the GOP side who are members of the Freedom Caucus and Republican Study Groups who refuse to vote on anything. Those do nothing members who have been sent to break things and not vote on anything that isn’t spiteful enough are the problem, but they seem to be disappeared from national press stories about what is happening in Washington. We need to get people mad not just at Donald Drump, but these do nothing layabouts that refuse to do their jobs or take any issue seriously. Its not a small number of GOP Congressmen who aren’t serious about the jobs that they are supposed to do.
Kay
@Leto:
Oh, I couldn’t disagree more. We haven’t been told anything regarding the extent of the interference. We have a bare “yes, they interfered” and then a bunch of theories about why they did that.
Just last week we found out that most of the ads focused on racial divisions. That’s much more specific than “interfered”, and it’s a “what” not a why. “The Russian government specifically targeted racial divisions in the US with paid ads” may get you to a better and more accurate “why” than “the Russian government interfered” would.
I think closing off the inquiry into “why” before we have the “what” is just a bad process because you’ll fit the facts that are revealed into your preexisting frame, which is “I know why they did it”.
I’m not saying any of you are wrong. I’m saying I’m not settling on a why until I have a better what. And I don’t think Democratic candidates should either- they’re not- but I don’t think they should start.
schrodingers_cat
@rikyrah: Agreed 100%. Fortune favors the brave, not the timid.
Brachiator
@Leto:
Not a big soccer fan, but I’ve seen these same stories and I think you may be right here. This stuff may get ugly.
Yarrow
@Kay:
The investigation is still ongoing. It’s as top secret as can be with zero leaks from Mueller’s team. We will not know until we do.
They are investigating the how and what and the why will follow from that. For prosecution the “why” matters less than the what and that they did it. Those are things you can prosecute.
Kay
@Yarrow:
But admit there are unknowns. Last week the Senate Dems issued findings that voter rolls could have been compromised- changed. We were told with great assurance that there was no actual tampering for 2 years. Now, “could have” is way different than “were” but we weren’t given accurate information because that was closed off as a possibility. We were told there was no tampering, as far as election systems. How the hell could they know that? They couldn’t. They hadn’t reviewed shit when they said it. They said it anyway.
They don’t know which means we don’t know. Mueller won’t solve it either. It;s too broad a question for his inquiry. He’ll give a piece.
Leto
@Kay: True to a point: we haven’t been told the full extent because 1) it’s an ongoing investigation, via Mueller, the FBI (still a counter-intel investigation going), and the Senate sub-committees. They’re not going to release that info yet. It’s an active investigation, despite the never ending efforts by House GOP members to kill it. And 2) House GOPers have shut that down without actually doing an investigation. It’s part of the reason we need Dems elected: actual investigations. Honest investiagtions that will be reported to the American public so “we” know the true extent of the fuckery.
We’re probably just going to disagree with the “what” portion, which I, and others, feel has been adequately established. I don’t think we’ve closed off the “why”, but most of the “whys” come back to a single reason. It’s the same reason he’s doing it in every other Western democracy.
J R in WV
@gene108:
And why were there so many human blood sacrifices — 41 people died, their blood spilled upon the ground — I thought we had left the worship and feeding of Ba’al behind years ago!!! But no, now we’re killing people to open a new embassy, ancient history come again, in the same old desert where abominations spring up every few years; this time it’s trumpian monstrosity!
Brachiator
@Peale:
I honestly do not think that this is a reasonable concern. I don’t think that many voters think about things this way.
But even if they did, so what? If you think that you can construct a winning campaign just on sheer anger, you still have to give people something tangible to be angry about.
The Republicans have fucked up. And this ain’t got nothing to do with Pelosi and Schumer. And it doesn’t have much to do with the press.
I remember angry Town Hall meetings where people wanted to talk about health care, and Republicans running and hiding. Video of this still exists. The Democrats should use it. It ain’t that difficult.
Every major newspaper and business news site has had articles about who benefits from the GOP tax cuts. This is low hanging fruit. Most people know whether or not they have more money in their pockets. There is even a video out there of Trump lying about how he was going to pay more because of tax reform. Again, it is easy to show this.
Debt ceiling. I didn’t mention this because nobody gives a shit. It’s too abstract. But it’s still easy to show that the Republicans lied about it.
Nobody except political weenies like you and me know about this, or care. Maybe this can be brought up in local ads in specific local elections.
Ruckus
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
You can look at those kids from a different direction and see why they aren’t swayed by the bullshit being thrown at them.
They have been through far worse in their young lives, have had far worse thrown at them. Hot lead heated even more by hate. That’s a focus that changes a person. For some it makes them bitter at everything, for others it makes them stronger. These kids got stronger. They are intelligent and focused. They have a very valid purpose. You might think it was forced upon them but it’s obvious that they don’t see it that way. Simply, these are good people. Very good.
Ruckus
@rikyrah:
QFT.
Say it often, say it loud. TRAITORS.
As a person who signed up and took an actual oath to support this country and it’s laws, I am far more than offended.
Ruckus
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
That’s part of making the shady stuff more difficult to understand.
You need a huge chart to see where one part leads to the next part and overlaps the 12th part, which is stringing along the 5th part, which leads to the 20th part, which………
It’s complicated on purpose. All those LLCs and money movements are intended to make it complicated and hard to follow. Nixon was easy, far, far easier in comparison. First there weren’t as many moving pieces. Second he was not really trying to hide it that well. In this case there are far more moving pieces and while they are actively trying to hide everything, they aren’t very good at it. And I don’t think that Vlad is trying at all to hide anything. He wants all of this out in the open because it makes our democracy look ineffective and bad at governing. He’s not trying to improve our country, he’s trying to destroy it, using very unconventional weapons, an extremely narcissistic asshole that he helped get elected. He wants to show first that he can fuck with our “free” elections, that he can control his puppet that he got elected and all the while he can destabilize this country. So far I’d have to give him a pretty good grade. I don’t think that’s going to hold btw but so far he’s gotten pretty much what he seems to want.
Ruckus
@Cheryl Rofer:
You and Kay are correct on what democrats need to run on, solid helpful policy. That is different than talking about what is going on in the republican/russian camp and how we got where we are today. I doubt that anyone here is running for office. We are concerned about what we see going on and what that means for our country, the world and the future.
The world, it has been said, is getting smaller. Of course that’s not true, that is the effect, there are a lot more people, and yet not any more land or a lot more eatable food or water. Each one of our squares are getting smaller and all the while a few people are grabbing up huge squares and squeezing out specific groups to do this. They don’t want to learn to live with others, they want it all for themselves and it doesn’t work that way any longer. The world has to grow up or blow up, and I know which will be better in the long run and it isn’t another explosion. And we are as, if not more guilty of this than most any other country. We haven’t been taking land but we have been trying, over the last few decades, of forming the narrative, all the while talking out the other side of our mouths. You and Kay are right that getting elected on looking forward is the right way to do that. But we can’t ignore what is going on now and what needs to be changed in the bigger picture. The big picture and the small details both need to be worked on.
Munira
@Tokyokie:
Conrad was actually writing in his third language. Polish and French were his first and second.