Loving You Both Is Breaking All the Rules

I think some of you nerds like science fiction. I do too. Let me weave a dystopian tapestry before your wondering eyes and you can tell me what you think.

The year is 2020. There are now flying cars and cheeky robot companions. You have neither of these things. You have a slightly fancier phone and a couple of new shirts.

Your state’s primary has been pushed to the end of the season and its outcome will be pivotal. Democratic primary voters have said they will not go to Cochella. They will not go to Bonaroo. They won’t even go to Lollapalooza. The voters in the other 49 states have proclaimed that they want Paul Revere and the Raiders or The American Breed. This tortured analogy is trying to tell you they want Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders.

Let’s say that Joe has stayed his course  as the WWWC (Wooer of the White Working Class) candidate. Bernie has staked out the leftmost pragmatic position on all of your favorites: Healthcare, education, minimum wage, full employment.

And there you are, in the voting booth. Between Scylla and Charybdis. For whom do you pull the lever?

While you muse on this bummer episode of The Twilight Zone, please observe what I have in my other hand: It’s the fund that’s split between all eventual Democratic nominees in House districts currently held by Republicans.

Goal Thermometer






181 replies
  1. 1
    piratedan says:

    Joe… because its painfully apparent that Sen Sanders, despite originating from a relatively decent place, is in someone else’s pocket. I’m getting tired of being offered a supposedly viable political choice who is being funded by foreign entities who are opponents of the very system they are attempting to undermine.

    Its all well and good to make a buck, not so much on making one selling out the ideals of the country, the system that is its foundation and your friends and neighbors.

    and to be fair I fucking like Paul Revere and the Raiders, and while Bend Me, Shape Me was nifty tune, but you’re going to need to bring up that the guy behind it was one of the best studio masterminds of all time and was the driving force of many a one-hit wonder.

  2. 2
    Roger Moore says:

    @piratedan:

    Joe… because its painfully apparent that Sen Sanders, despite originating from a relatively decent place, is in someone else’s pocket.

    Also, Joe would have some idea of what to do with the office once he had it; I have no faith that Wilmer would.

  3. 3
    Jack the Second says:

    Joe, with the caveat that if it’s 2019 and the only two viable candidates are Joe and Bernie, I’m throwing my own goddamn hat in the ring.

    I think Joe can at least work constructively with Democrats in Congress to do … something. I don’t trust Bernie to play well with others.

  4. 4
    Mike J says:

    Joe is competent and has actually passed legislation. We’ve seen what happens with an incompetent buffoon in office.

  5. 5
    dnfree says:

    I have gotten called a troll for saying things like this before, but I’m in my 70s. All three of the major candidates (Hillary, Sanders, Trump) as well as Biden, are in my age group. When Obama was elected I thought, “Thank goodness, we’ve seen the last president from my generation.” Couldn’t believe the Democrats couldn’t come up with someone younger and more appealing in 2016. Naturally I voted for Hillary, but I will NOT vote for anyone my age in 2020 no matter how otherwise-qualified they are. Republicans in the past have been the party of “It’s his turn”. Democrats should not emulate them.

  6. 6
    john (not mccain) says:

    I’ll never vote for Trump-enabling filth like Bernie.

  7. 7
    The Dangerman says:

    Since this is Science FICTION, let me propose the future where votes are weighted; if you have an Advanced Degree or show signs of independent thought, your vote is weighted at 150%. Truly believe Fox is fair and balanced, you get 0.75%. Believe Obama was born in Kenya or Hillary shot Vince, you get 0.1% (and mocking laughter).

  8. 8
    Yutsano says:

    And there you are, in the voting booth. Between Scylla and Charybdis. For whom do you pull the lever?

    I take the Democrat. I take the one who has always been a solid Democrat who has no taint of Russian support. Uncle Joe. Zero question.

    @The Dangerman: Ooh…are we doing the thought crimes thing? I love the thought crimes thing!

  9. 9
    Mnemosyne says:

    Ahem. Coachella. I hear they have a carrot festival, too.

  10. 10
    Emma says:

    Joe. As I’ve said before in these threads, Bernie reminds me of the old line communists in Cuba, too willing put all their eggs in one basket because as soon as the proletariat paradise was achieved all problems would go away, no matter what methods were used. Secondly, and less of an emotional response, I don’t like people who try to present themselves as the great defenders of the peepul while bashing folk who’ve been walking the walk for most of their lives.

    (edited a bit for clarity)

  11. 11
    Mary G says:

    Ditto. Bernie is Trump 2.0. We’ve had quite enough handwaving already.

  12. 12

    Joe Biden, unquestionably. Sanders isn’t left of anybody. Sanders has a few slogans idealists want to hear, and has demonstrated concretely that he has no understanding of them beyond the slogan level, and no principles of his own. In fact, I would seriously consider that he might deliberately take a dive in the general, because he’s sure as Hell done nothing consistent but ratfuck Democrats. I can have mixed feelings about the Democratic candidate like I would with Biden. That’s fine. Sanders is a steaming barrel of rat shit.

  13. 13
    Cermet says:

    And since it is SF, then O’Malley is there as well. I’ll take the guy who in not so old dino’s remember them.

  14. 14
    Paula says:

    If it came down to this choice, Joe. Among many things, he’ll have had the experience of Obama’s administration in terms of people and procedures and etc. Whoever follows Trump will have to rebuild the federal government.

  15. 15
    eemom says:

    Ugh, I hate that song.

  16. 16
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    I won’t vote for Sanders, ever. I’ll be looking for the exit.

  17. 17
    Yutsano says:

    @Cermet: It would also be nice to have a President with a six pack again. Canada is showing us up hardcore on that score.

  18. 18
    PJ says:

    After years of Onion articles on him, I tend to think of Biden as more of a BTO/Steppenwolf/Foghat man, but if we choose to accept your analogy (which seems to me the most bogus one you have come up with yet), Paul Revere and the Raiders had so many classic songs (just off the top of my head: Kicks, Him or Me, What’s It Gonna Be, Let Me, Just Like Me, Hungry, The Legend of Paul Revere) and the American Breed had none, so I think it’s no contest.

    Also@Roger Moore: Biden knows what it entails to be President of the entire US, including having some interest in foreign affairs.

  19. 19
    The Moar You Know says:

    This tortured analogy is trying to tell you they want Joe Biden or Bernie Sanders.

    First, I’m buying futures in defibrillators and embalming fluid. Neither one of those two has any business running at their age.

    Second, no contest. I know who’s pocket Biden is in. Bernie, on the other hand, has proven himself more than willing to throw a national election to a Republican if he isn’t the anointed one. I won’t even get into the free vacation house of mysterious origins.

  20. 20
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    having always been deeply ambivalent about Joe Biden, that would be a very, very easy choice

    Bernie has staked out the leftmost pragmatic position

    My suspension of disbelief just broke, even in a hypothetical. Trying to remember what Chris Hayes said the other night– something about the need for pragmatism in purple districts, I think– that made me literally shout at my Tee-Vee, “Why don’t you run that by your fucking hero Bernie!”

  21. 21
    Brachiator says:

    Let’s say that Joe has stayed his course as the WWWC (Wooer of the White Working Class) candidate. Bernie has staked out the leftmost pragmatic position on all of your favorites: Healthcare, education, minimum wage, full employment.

    There is no universe, multi-verse or alternate reality in which Bernie gets my vote.

    @The Dangerman:

    Since this is Science FICTION, let me propose the future where votes are weighted; if you have an Advanced Degree or show signs of independent thought, your vote is weighted at 150%. Truly believe Fox is fair and balanced, you get 0.75%.

    Advance degree don’t mean shit by itself. I propose a critical thinking test. Fail it and you get an incapacitating electric shock. If you believe that Fox is fair and balanced, you get two shocks.

  22. 22
    TenguPhule says:

    For whom do you pull the lever?

    I assume at that point its linked to a nuclear suitcase.

  23. 23
    The Moar You Know says:

    Also, damn you for putting that inspid garbage song in my head. I’m a big fan of 70s soft rock, but not that one for some reason.

  24. 24

    How about neither. I would like someone who is not 70+.

  25. 25
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    There is no universe, multi-verse or alternate reality in which Bernie gets my vote.

    Not even your evil mirror universe clone?

  26. 26
    Drunkenhausfrau says:

    Joe. Bernie is a fraud.

  27. 27
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    If you believe that Fox is fair and balanced, you get two shocks.

    Why stop at two?

  28. 28
    ruemara says:

    1. Neither.
    2. I shall be emigrating to another continent with hopefully, less madmen.
    3. Your biggest fantasy there is that Bernie would be pragmatic.

  29. 29
    TenguPhule says:

    Bernie has staked out the leftmost pragmatic position on all of your favorites

    Pragmatic? I’m sorry is this supposed to be science fiction or fantasy?

  30. 30
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    FWIW, I listened to some of the O-Bros’ interview with Biden, and he sounded like a candidate. He has that disease for which Dr Udall said the only cure is embalming fluid.

  31. 31

    Three amigos
    Favor the cult of BS
    Title their posts with song lyrics.

  32. 32
    Karen Potter says:

    @dnfree: I am with you, the last thing needed is another old person; I don’t care race or sex but no one old. We need fresh young blood, under 45 would be great.

  33. 33
    Mike in DC says:

    My earnest hope is that the Big 3–Biden, Sanders, Warren–choose not to run, leaving the field to younger candidates with less baggage.

  34. 34
    hueyplong says:

    This feels like a ban test, but one I can pass.

    NeverBernie.

  35. 35
    nonynony says:

    Who are their running mates? Given their ages by 2020, that would be the million dollar question, I think.

    Also I’d fall into a deep depression that Democrats by 2020 had reached the point where two old white guys who have both run for president before are the best the party could find. But that’s another story.

  36. 36
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    Intriguing. I seem to have run afoul of bot/sockpuppet twitter. Say something positive about Mexico, and get beset by dozens of profiles of people claiming to be women with flags and banners about their love of Trump, Jesus, the Troops. They’ve got thousands of followers and follow thousands, and tweet about conservative American things even if they’re claiming locations in the UK, the EU, Brazil, Australia….

  37. 37
    TenguPhule says:

    Time to panic. Kudlow has spoken.

    “Absolutely not. Absolutely not. And let me just say right at the top, number one, blame China, not Trump. Because they’ve been going on for many years.

    Trump is really the first to fight back and to put a shot across the bow, stealing intellectual property rights, technology transfers, high barriers, investment limitations, high tariffs – this stuff really is not just unfair, it’s unlawful. It’s outside the boundaries of the WTO. Every country in the world knows this.

    Every analyst knows this is the case. Somebody’s got to deal with it. Trump is going to deal with it. There’s no trade war here. What you’ve got is the early stages of a process which will include tariffs, comments on the tariffs, then ultimate decisions and negotiations. There’s already backchannel talks going on. So look, I understand the stock market’s anxiety. I get that. But on the other hand, don’t over react. We’ll see how this works out.

    My view Stu, look, you know I’m a growth guy, I’m a Reagan supply side growth guy. I think that at the end of this whole process, that at the end of the rainbow, there’s a pot of gold. And if you open up that pot, you will see better economic growth, more trading going on, improved wages for both sides.

    Anytime you lower barriers, anytime you lower barriers, and that’s the key, the president will say this, lower barriers is the key, don’t raise the barriers. Anytime you do that, it’s good for growth. It’s good for American growth and American workers, it’s good for China’s growth, it’s good for the rest of the world’s growth.”

    Via the Guardian.

    WASF.

  38. 38
    DesertFriar says:

    Lunatic fringe
    In the twilight’s last gleaming
    But this is open season
    But you won’t get too far
    ‘Cause you’ve got to blame someone
    For your own confusion
    We’re on guard this time (on guard this time)
    Against your final solution

  39. 39
    TenguPhule says:

    Carl Quintanilla

    @carlquintanilla
    Kudlow, asked by reporters if US could lose a trade war, says, “No. I don’t see it that way. This is a negotiation, using all the tools.”

    (via @reuters)

    This is not a drill.

  40. 40

    @TenguPhule: Kudlow is an idiot or high or both.

  41. 41
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Yeesh, Biden will be 77 in 2020? Age isn’t high on my list one way or the other, but that seems like it would be a tough sell

  42. 42

    In this fictional universe where Sanders is proposing pragmatic solutions and Biden is focusing on the WWC, I’d vote for Sanders.

  43. 43
    TenguPhule says:

    @schrodingers_cat: He is consistently wrong. You could set your watch by how wrong he is on everything. We are in so much economic trouble now.

  44. 44

    @TenguPhule:
    Well, that was incoherent, self-contradictory drivel that will only coincidentally resemble what Trump’s White House actually does. So, same old, same old.

  45. 45
    CaseyL says:

    If those are my choices, Joe. No question. Hope he’s not the nom, though; I like him a lot, but I do worry about the age issue.

    Add me to the list of people who will not cast a primary vote for Bernie under any circumstances. He’s an ignorant demagogue and grifter.

  46. 46
    oldgold says:

    I am hoping to survive Scylla and Charybdis and vote on the Isle of Ogygia for a candidate as enchanting as Calypso.

  47. 47
    Jewish Steel says:

    @eemom: Which is worse? Torn Between Two Lovers or Sad To Belong?

  48. 48
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I don’t really give a flying fuck about IP. The only people who are going on about IP are Hollywood (who among us cares if China does cheap knockoffs of movie plots in the age of streaming music and video) and pharma (oh, no – China is reverse engineering the shit Big Pharma charges rent for, eking away a fraction of a point of profit).

    We need to quit parking IP rights anyway.

  49. 49
    Jewish Steel says:

    @The Moar You Know: See my reply to eemom. :D

  50. 50
    hueyplong says:

    There is no world in which Sanders proposes pragmatic solutions.

    This is a word test of whether Bernie’s brand is well and truly fucked and the answer is yes, it is.

  51. 51
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    There is no universe, multi-verse or alternate reality in which Bernie gets my vote.

    Not even your evil mirror universe clone?

    Bernie is already president in the evil mirror universe. My mirror universe version did not vote for him.

  52. 52
    joel hanes says:

    Sanders would be a disaster as President, a mirror image of Trump’s rightwing ego-driven foolishness.
    He has no interest in governing a nation; he wants to Be President and Bully us from the Pulpit.

    A Sanders Presidency would drive the nation’s voters far to the right.

  53. 53
    randy khan says:

    I would vote for Bernie in a general election, but he’s shown no evidence of understanding the broader Democratic coalition or how to govern, so he’d have to be running against the Democratic equivalent of Alan Keyes to get my vote in a primary.

    I would add that I don’t think it violates the hypothetical to imagine that Biden, even as the WWWC, would demonstrate more understanding of and sympathy to women and people of color than Bernie, which would make the choice even easier.

  54. 54
    Jewish Steel says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: You should contact @conspiritor0 on twitter. He/She does a great job in outing bots and trolls.

  55. 55

    This thread makes me happy because overwhelmingly, everyone shares my opinion of that ratfucker Bernie. Good. That mask needed to come off and be stomped into the dirt.

  56. 56
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Brachiator:

    Everybody wants to be Spock in all universes. Is there a mirror universe in which Spock is an asshole?

  57. 57
    Brachiator says:

    @oldgold:

    I am hoping to survive Scylla and Charybdis and vote on the Isle of Ogygia for a candidate as enchanting as Calypso.

    If asked by a one-eyed poll inspector, I voted for “no man.”

  58. 58

    @schrodingers_cat: Given Kudlow’s past, both would be a good guess.

  59. 59
    MomSense says:

    Sanders? I hate that fucking guy.

    I hope we have a younger generation choice by then.

  60. 60
    TenguPhule says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Is there a mirror universe in which Spock is an asshole?

    Yes, in that universe, Nimoy didn’t get the part.

  61. 61
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    If asked by a one-eyed poll inspector, I voted for “no man.”

    Well played.

  62. 62
    Aleta says:

    From CNBC (excerpts) around noon today

    The Trump administration’s proposed tariffs on China may not actually take effect in the end, … National Economic Council Director Larry Kudlow told reporters, when asked if there was a chance (the) measures … would not go into effect.

    “It’s part of the process. I mean, I would take the president seriously on this tariff issue,” he added. “You know, there are carrots and sticks in life, but he is ultimately a free trader.”

    On Tuesday, the Trump administration unveiled a list of Chinese imports it wants to target in retaliation for alleged intellectual property theft. … China then announced tariffs on 106 American products such as soybeans, cars and whiskey. The administration does not expect to take any more trade action to react to China this week, according to a White House official who declined to be named.

    Fears of a trade war led to major U.S. stock indexes diving on Wednesday morning, only to make up some of those losses throughout the day.

    Kudlow called the stock market reaction to the moves “mild” and cautioned against overreacting …

    Kudlow, a free-market advocate and longtime CNBC personality, started in his White House position this week.

  63. 63

    @randy khan:

    Biden, even as the WWWC, would demonstrate more understanding of and sympathy to women and people of color than Bernie

    Another thing I detest about Sanders. He’s learned to say he values minorities of all kinds, but all the subtext spits on them. It’s exactly like how he supports the Democratic Party.

  64. 64
    TenguPhule says:

    @Aleta: Which means they will go into effect.

    Because Kudlow is ALWAYS WRONG.

  65. 65
    Brachiator says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Everybody wants to be Spock in all universes. Is there a mirror universe in which Spock is an asshole?

    No. Spock is a bad muthafucka in all universes. It is, after all, logical.

  66. 66
    Mary G says:

    It’s not the crime, it’s the coverup:

    JUST IN: Facebook says it now believes the Facebook information of up to 87,000,000 people, mostly in US, "may have been improperly shared with Cambridge Analytica" – @NBCNewsBusiness— NBC News (@NBCNews) April 4, 2018

    They have gone from “nothing to see here, move along” right after the election, to $1,500, to 50 million, now 87 million. Glad I never activated FB; I downloaded my stuff and it was tiny.

  67. 67
    Roger Moore says:

    @oldgold:
    Just so long as our voters don’t get stuck in the land of the lotus eaters.

  68. 68
    Rand Careaga says:

    Well, if we’re running a tab here, put me down as a vote for Smokin’ Joe over the Sage of Burlington, but along with others here I’d prefer someone younger (and Biden has only a decade on me).

  69. 69
    Mike in DC says:

    Gillibrand, Harris and Booker appear to be the strongest potential contenders among presidential newcomers. Warren would technically be a newcomer as well.

  70. 70
    Leto says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: I’m sure Lockheed and Boeing would like to have a word with you about that. While I know most around here will basically say, F the MIC, at the same time having that information stolen isn’t exactly beneficial to us.

  71. 71
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Gillibrand, Harris and Booker appear to be the strongest potential contenders among presidential newcomers.

    Anyone besides Gillbrand.

  72. 72
    debit says:

    @TenguPhule: If she’s the nominee, I will vote for her.

  73. 73
    BC in Illinois says:

    2016 – – I heard Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Jason Kander, Joe Biden (speaking for Jason Kander), and Clair McCaskill (rousing a Saturday morning crowd of door-knockers for Jason Kander at a union hall).

    They were all great speakers, but Joe Biden was the best by far in making the passionate case for what government can do for good, when led by people committed to what the Democratic Party stands for.

    I want him by the side of the Democratic candidate — for everything! — in 2020. But in 2020, I will be 71. I want the candidates I vote for, by and large, to be younger than me.

  74. 74
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @Mnemosyne: What a gull-a-bull

  75. 75
    Lalophobia says:

    @dnfree:

    Couldn’t believe the Democrats couldn’t come up with someone younger and more appealing in 2016.

    My impression was everyone in the left field thought Hilary was a lock and didn’t want to embarrass themselves going against her. I’m thinking (hoping?) this time around that won’t be a problem. We might even have the opposite situation, where everyone will want to step in because everyone wants to be known as the guy or gal who slayed the two-headed Trump/Putin dragon. Especially since if things keep going the way they are, it’ll be even weaker and easier to take down by then. Hopefully.

  76. 76

    @Mnemosyne: Hmmm, the kid never mentioned the carrot festival.

  77. 77
    Spider-Dan says:

    There are a lot of Never Bernies in the comments, so just to clarify: that’s not referring to the general, right?

    I wouldn’t vote for Bernie in virtually any primary, but I would run to the polls to vote for Bernie in the general if he had a (D) next to his name. I’m neither a hypocrite nor an idiot.

  78. 78
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    I didn’t even bother to respond, because I think my opinion of Bernie has been crystal clear for a while now.

  79. 79
  80. 80
    Tony Jay says:

    OT – But if any BJers are passing Malaysia could they pop into Amir’s place to peal him off the ceiling? Champions League Quarter Final at Anfield, Liverpool vs Manchester City, the runaway champions-elect of England. Liverpool 3-0 up after a rampant first half.

    Long way to go, but Come on You Reds!!

    Interruption over.

  81. 81
    BC in Illinois says:

    @BC in Illinois:

    And I don’t want him, or any of the other elders to wait for 2020.

    I want September, October, and the first week in November of 2018 to be filled with a nationwide outpouring of fantastic speakers, stumping for candidates for Congress, Senate, Governors, county executives, states reps, and any other office . . .

    making the passionate case for what government can do for good, when led by people committed to what the Democratic Party stands for.

    I want Joe Biden to be everywhere, along with Elizabeth Warren, Kamala Harris, Tammy Duckworth, Maxine Waters, John Lewis, Sherrod Brown, Pat Brown, and — yes — Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, and Michele Obama. I want the entire Democratic Party making the case why democracy is important in 2018.

    (If Senator Sanders from Vermont wants to join the Democratic Party, then he can come, too.)

  82. 82
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA:

    Maybe they hold it at a different time of year. 🤔

  83. 83
    Ridnik Chrome says:

    Biden over Bernie, any day.

    @joel hanes:

    A Sanders Presidency would drive the nation’s voters far to the right.

    I’d say Bernie would be another Jimmy Carter, except that would be unfair to Carter, who was actually a better president than people give him credit for. Not only would Sanders have none of Carter’s good qualities, he’d have all the bad ones, raised to the nth power.

  84. 84
    White & Gold Purgatorian says:

    Joe. With glee, even. Because after that other old white man’s performance in April – July of 2016 I could never cast a vote for him unless the only alternative on the ballot is a Republican.

    Long time lurker here, just had to weigh in on this.

  85. 85
    Mnemosyne says:

    @BC in Illinois:

    I’ve been seeing a lot of Tammy Duckworth on social media. I think she may be a dark horse candidate for 2020.

  86. 86
    Spanky says:

    So the Dow started the day down 400 on the China trade news. It’s been rising nearly continuously, and now stands 200 points above yesterday’s close, a rise of 600-some points.

    If anybody says they can predict the market, that’s one person you know is full of shit.

  87. 87
    Betty Cracker says:

    Does anyone ever mention Chris Murphy of CT as a 2020 contender? I think he’d be a terrific candidate. He’s great on the issues, youngish for a presidential candidate, not hard to look at and appears to have at least some charisma. His work on gun control would be appealing to the future voters who are fed the fuck up with school shootings.

  88. 88
    kindness says:

    I like Bernie but until he can show me the math behind how any one of his programs will be funded, I won’t vote for Bernie in a Primary. Sorry but there is a whole lot of hot air there.

  89. 89
    gvg says:

    I don’t understand the point of this hypothetical. Everyone here is known to be anti Sanders even if they weren’t 2 years ago. the age thing has also been hashed out to death.
    It occurs to me that if Sanders did get elected, it would finish heightening the contradictions and trash the democrats brand for decades again by showing us off as incompetent. If the choice was Trump and Sanders, a lot more people would tune out and not vote. It could really damage the US’s reputation and our own trust in our system. If that happened, I’d really be suspicious…..and that might have been Putins intent.

  90. 90

    I would vote for the candidate most likely to be a good president.

    Determining who this would be is left as a not very difficult exercise for the reader.

  91. 91
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @dnfree: I essentially agree but haven’t seen any viable names yet.

  92. 92
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Is there a mirror universe in which Spock is an asshole?

    Gene Roddenberry’s Andromeda Ascending was explicitly designed as a setting in which the Vulcans overthrew the Federation and caused a thousand-year-long Dark Age mainly just because they were a bunch of assholes. (In that setting, Nietcheans, the Vulcan analogues, were transhumans who based their entire society on the writings of Ayn Rand. –

  93. 93
    Joyce Harmon says:

    More PR&R fans! I knew there was a reason I liked this place.

  94. 94
    JPL says:

    @Betty Cracker: I agree, although I still think it would be cool to have Sen. Whitehouse in the White House.

    just cuz!

  95. 95
    Doug R says:

    Why have you failed to mention Kamala Harris is on my ballot? Screw those old white men.

  96. 96
    JPL says:

    Sad about Rudy and his tiara wearing wife divorcing.

  97. 97
    Ridnik Chrome says:

    @gvg: Trump versus Sanders is about the only scenario in which I could see myself voting for Bernie.

  98. 98
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Lalophobia:

    My impression was everyone in the left field thought Hilary was a lock and didn’t want to embarrass themselves going against her.

    There’s a certain irony in that. I’ve always believed that Bill only won in 1992 because he was bold enough to throw his hat in the ring at a time when Bush I had a 97% approval rating after the Gulf War. Back in 1988, everyone I knew assumed that Mario Cuomo would be the 1992 nominee.

  99. 99
    Mnemosyne says:

    @JPL:

    They were still married? Or did he acquire another wife between 9/11 and now and I just didn’t care?

    And the hopeful cynic in me says, “Trying to protect assets for when he pleads guilty of money laundering?”

  100. 100
    Spanky says:

    WaPo Red Banner:

    BREAKING: Trump to sign proclamation sending National Guard to U.S. border with Mexico

  101. 101
    Cckids says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    FWIW, I listened to some of the O-Bros’ interview with Biden, and he sounded like a candidate. He has that disease for which Dr Udall said the only cure is embalming fluid.

    I listened to all of it and . . . damn, Joe, DON’T DO IT. I thought he was an amazing VP, but do not want him as Prez. He sounds old, in thoughts and in ideas. Let’s move on.

  102. 102

    @BC in Illinois: Pat Brown might be difficult, guess they could dig him up. Jerry should be available.

  103. 103
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Spanky:

    And which governors of which states are going to allow that, again? 🤔

  104. 104
    Chris Johnson says:

    None of them, nobody over 70, especially not Biden. Seriously, Joe “bankruptcy bill” Biden? Back in the day, President Clinton pocket-vetoed an earlier attempt by big finance to hose people. Bill stopped that, at Hillary’s request, and Hillary was advised by Elizabeth Warren, back in 2000.

    I trust both the Clintons put together plus Elizabeth Warren more than Joe Biden. And they’re all far too old. None of the above.

  105. 105
    Yutsano says:

    @Mnemosyne: You and I both know Abbott and Ducey will be all over it, especially since Abbott needs his rabid base to be fired up for November. And hey a little voter oppression in the name of “border patrol” in the Rio Grande valley is just coincidence right? //

  106. 106
    eclare says:

    @Mnemosyne: Really? Wow! And to echo all, Joe over the ratfucker anyday.

  107. 107
    Faithful Lurker says:

    @Doug R: in 2020, i will be 75 years old and as an old white woman, I say- Amen, Brother and say it again.

  108. 108

    I’m gonna vote for the young 40ish energetic dark horse candidate that came out of Colorado or Washington state because I want my heart broken when she wins and then spends eight years fighting an obstructionist GOP in Congress that can still stop every progressive/moderate agenda even if the Dems control 300 House seats and 62 Senate seats. BECAUSE THAT’S ALL I KNOW after the Clinton and Obama years. /cries

  109. 109

    I just realized I can’t vote for the Democratic primary because I’m NPA.

  110. 110
    cmorenc says:

    I will vote for Joe, who actually knows how to work with people and get stuff done, as opposed to a firebrand who proclaims attractive themes, but has no clue how to work with others to actually get any of it done. Although Bernie lacks most of Trump’s worst personal and political traits, he shares Trump’s simplistic from-the-gut type of thinking that skims right over tons of important details that stand between his pronouncements and actually translating them into working policy. Oh, and also to a lesser degree, shares Trump’s contemptuous arrogance.

    Also, the final choice JS offered us in the original post is that only Bernie and Biden are on the ballot by the time this primary comes around where you get to vote. Voting write-in for some third dark-horse from Wash or Colo won’t accomplish anything constructive, except hint to the winner that there are some purity pony voters out there who might sit on their hands come the critical Presidential vote in November.

  111. 111
    BC in Illinois says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA:
    Touché.

  112. 112
    Mnemosyne says:

    @eclare:

    Hmm. She may have a “natural born citizen” technicality problem, though — she was born in Thailand to an American citizen father and his Thai wife. Under US law, she’s a citizen, but troublemakers could make hay about the “natural born” part.

  113. 113
    Yarrow says:

    @JPL: Rudy’s a traitor. Maybe Judith is smart enough to get out now.

    I’m not very interested in the 2020 presidential election right now. I’m focusing on 2018 and winning every seat possible for the Dems. I think that’s where the majority of our focus and energy should be right now. We can focus on 2020 after the 2018 elections are over.

  114. 114

    @BC in Illinois: A Brown was Governor of my state when I was born, a Brown was Governor when I graduated from high school and college, and a Brown is Governor now.

  115. 115
    Jeffro says:

    This is a total no-fucking-brainer: you vote for the Democrat you want in the primary, and then you vote for *THE* Democrat in the general…and then you keep on making yourself heard by attending meetings, donating money and time, writing your paper, “working the refs” in the media, donate some more, lather/rinse/repeat.

  116. 116
    geg6 says:

    Super easy question…

    Joe. No doubt about it. I wouldn’t vote for Wilmer to head the PTA cupcake sale.

  117. 117
    opiejeanne says:

    Probably someone else has pointed it out already, but it’s Coachella. How it ever became a destination for any kind of festival is beyond me; the place is a hole.

  118. 118
    randy khan says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think his gun control work probably makes Murphy a more viable choice if he wants to run.

    Another interesting possible candidate is Brian Schatz, if we could stand another Hawaiian.

  119. 119
    low-tech cyclist says:

    And there you are, in the voting booth. Between Scylla and Charybdis. For whom do you pull the lever?

    I don’t. I start singing, “You consider me a young apprentice…”

  120. 120
    ruemara says:

    @JPL: How could he divorce himself? I’m fairly sure he left his ethics a long time ago.

    @Betty Cracker: I do like him. And Kamala Harris, but she’s a bit unseasoned. Yes, I know. I still want her there for about another 4 years.

  121. 121
    randy khan says:

    @Gelfling 545:

    I think I’ve seen close to half a dozen viable names mentioned in this thread.

    As I’ve said before, at this point I’m partial to Gillibrand, but there are several other potential candidates who I’d happily donate to, work for, and vote for in 2020, and it might turn out that I like someone better than her in the end.

  122. 122
    Mnemosyne says:

    @opiejeanne:

    See my note at #9 about the Coachella Valley and the Great Carrot Festival therein. 😉

  123. 123
    randy khan says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    Back in 1988, everyone I knew assumed that Mario Cuomo would be the 1992 nominee.

    So I have a Cuomo/President story. In the 1984 election, I was one of the leaders of the one of the biggest campus groups supporting Mondale/Ferraro, which happened to be in New York City. After the election, one of the other people in the group got a job working for Cuomo and, at least sort of, the New York Democratic Party. He pulled together a task force to essentially create a handbook for student groups supporting presidential candidates, which was an odd thing for a state party to do in the abstract. In practice, of course, we all knew that it was to help prepare for Cuomo to run in 1988 when Reagan was term-limited.

    I remember thinking how smart it was to do this while the memories of what worked and what didn’t were still fresh, and also that it was an interesting way to start to coopt people into the coming campaign before the alternatives presented themselves. Of course, Cuomo never ran, so it was all for naught, but at least people in the NY state party were confident enough that he would to start planning years in advance.

  124. 124
    geg6 says:

    @Spider-Dan:

    I’d be looking around to see what country would be willing to take me and skedaddle before the election. I don’t want to vote for Bernie. Ever. For anything. If becoming an ex-pat is what allows me to not vote at all and still live in a functioning country, I’m willing to try to do it. I despise him and Trump equally. I believe they are both traitors.

  125. 125
    eclare says:

    @Mnemosyne: I assume she was born on a military base, same as McCain. But I get your point, seems like some asshole brought that up to her in some Congressional session, and she rightly tore him a new one.

  126. 126
    I'll be Frank says:

    That’s some dystopian sh*t right there.

  127. 127
    Betty Cracker says:

    @ruemara: I like Harris a lot. Also Cory Booker, who has TONS of charisma. I still like Gillibrand, despite the Al Franken thing, and Tammy Duckworth is wonderful — she takes absolutely no bullshit from Cadet Bonespurs, which endears her to me. Anyhoo, it’ll be interesting to see how this all unfolds. :)

  128. 128
    kd bart says:

    Don’t want either but if forced to, Joe. I don’t want to be tsk tsk from the White House for 4 years on my failure to be politically pure.

  129. 129
    Fair Economist says:

    I’d like to point out that the proportional representation in the Democratic Presidential nominating process means it’s quite likely there will be no 1st ballot nominee with such a wide field. A brokered convention is quite possible, which means even at the end you can vote for the candidate you like best, since most likely they will be the one whose dealing you like best, and because somebody well back in the pack could end up the consensus candidate. If we end up with a hot race between Biden and Sanders with each well back from 50% chances are the nominee will be neither one, but a third party who has earned neither supporters’ ire.

    Given the choice set up in the OP, I’d be with Joe, albeit depressed at the choice. Every reason I could give for the choice or for why it would be depressing has already been posted.

    As a resident of CA I will probably be free to vote for my first choice for a change and expect it to make a difference, since our primary has been kicked up to March Super Tuesday. I’m also hoping the requirement to release taxes to be on the primary ballot gets passed again once we have a new governor.

  130. 130
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    the choice is obvious: ¡Baud!

  131. 131
    ruemara says:

    @Betty Cracker: All good candidates, to me. And much preferable to OLD WHITE GUY 2020! Apologies to old white guys here, who are all lovely representatives of old white guys. Except you. You know who you are.

  132. 132
    Fair Economist says:

    @dnfree:

    Couldn’t believe the Democrats couldn’t come up with someone younger and more appealing in 2016.

    The Democratic party lined up behind Hillary because everybody who had worked with her knew she’d be a HELL of a great president. She’d have been the sharpest and best policymaker of the modern era, by a wide margin. And not only did everybody in the Democratic leadership know that, they all knew all the other Democrats knew it too. To support anybody else would be to support an inferior President and to have every other Democrat *know* you didn’t want a top-tier President.

  133. 133
    JCJ says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    While I love Tammy Duckworth I find it hard to believe that there would not be a full court press regarding her eligibility since she was born in Bangkok. After all, being born in such a non-American location as Hawai’i caused the loonies to cut loose about President Obama.

  134. 134
  135. 135

    @Fair Economist:

    I’d like to point out that the proportional representation in the Democratic Presidential nominating process means it’s quite likely there will be no 1st ballot nominee with such a wide field.

    Didn’t one of the early 2008 debates have like eight candidates?

  136. 136
    eyelessgame says:

    Well, Joe, because he’s actually a Democrat. But also because the executive branch is not just one person, and Biden has about a million more connections than Sanders does.

    But let me add that the winner of the Democratic primary gets my FULL THROATED SUPPORT in the general election, regardless of who it is. Biden or Sanders or Clinton or Franken or *whoever*. I will have strong opinions in the primary. Once it’s over, the winner gets my uncontested, unapologetic, full support.

  137. 137
    Yutsano says:

    @JCJ: Look at the one that was threatening to build against Rafael of Canada. And his claim was even weaker than hers. It’s only because he got rolled over by Dolt45 that it never got anywhere.

    I feel the same way about Jennifer Granholm. Y she born in Canada?

  138. 138
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    All those people you listed are neoliberal corporate shills, selling out progressives in service of the corrupt duopoly by cynically grabbing niche hot button social issues are nstead of focusing on the millyunayuhs and billyunayuhs…

  139. 139

    @ruemara:

    Except you. You know who you are.

    Hangs head in shame…

  140. 140
    The Moar You Know says:

    Which is worse? Torn Between Two Lovers or Sad To Belong?

    @Jewish Steel: You sick bastard. However, no contest: Torn Between Two Lovers. Which I have been hearing all day, thanks to you, and am thinking it might be time to get a coat hanger and get some DIY lobotomy action going on.

  141. 141
    MomSense says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    My kids and I are going to make t shirts. Mine will say Neo Liberal Shill and theirs will say Globalist Cuck.

  142. 142
    Steeplejack says:

    @JPL, @Mnemosyne:

    Sometimes it's sensible for people implicated in a criminal probe to divorce in order to avoid asset seizure. It's also sensible for women in close proximity to Donald Trump Jr or Rudy Giuliani to flee in horror, so who knows.— Sarah Kendzior (@sarahkendzior) April 4, 2018

  143. 143
    MomSense says:

    @Fair Economist:

    Her approval ratings when she left State were off the charts which is why the Republicans initiated the Benghazi hearings.

    They tore her down.

  144. 144
    piratedan says:

    @The Moar You Know: could have been worse, he could have cited Manilow’s Copacobana

  145. 145
    Yutsano says:

    @ruemara:

    Except you. You know who you are.

    Je.

    Ne.

    Regrette.

    Rien.

  146. 146
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @MomSense:

    I got dibs on “corrupt duopolist”.

  147. 147

    @MomSense: I would wear a Globalist Cuck shirt.

  148. 148
    Nelle says:

    I’m 66. Rotten shape. My husband is 74 and good enough shape that he’s flying for the Air Force this week as an escort pilot. He’s brilliant, degrees in nuclear engineering,water quality, geology, PhD in civil engineering. Former Alaskan bush pilot. Hydrogeologist. Project managed multi-million dollar ship overhaul at age 25. Still working. I taught at 7 colleges and universities (adjunct) as I followed him from place to place. We still have a lot to give.

    No way either of us should be running the US. Nor do we want to vote for someone our age or older. Time for us to advise and mentor from the wings. So many smart and able people younger than us. We had our time on main stage.

  149. 149
    ruemara says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Plus using the scourge of IDENTITY POLITICS instead of focusing on the downtrodden White Working Class.

    Semi-sorta off topic: I was at the gym while CNN was on and Fareed Zakaria had that Tiger Mom bullshitter, who’d written a new book, Political Tribes
    Group Instinct and the Fate of Nations. Guess what guys. Dems lost because of Identity Politics and focusing on victims. I outburst “Fuck you, lady” and the desk attendant changed the channel to House Hunters. Which was smart. But what in the everlovin’ fuck?!

  150. 150
    Yarrow says:

    Calling Ohio residents!

    Police are investigating reports of "zombie-like" raccoons in Ohio. One animal followed a man to his door, where it proceeded to stand up on its hind legs, show its teeth, then fall over backward into an almost comatose condition. https://t.co/7FZg5De0q5 pic.twitter.com/R8kbcEIvcK— CBS News (@CBSNews) April 4, 2018

  151. 151
    Lyrebird says:

    @Rand Careaga: Yeah, I LOVE SMOKIN’ JOE and I do not have any doubts about how he will, in reality, given time, campaign with gusto for whoever really emerges for that contest. (Sen. Harris, anyone?)

    People need another earworm to choose from, so here’s one I find apt:

    Clowns to the left of me,
    Jokers to the right –
    Here I am,
    Stuck in the middle with you!

  152. 152
    Yarrow says:

    @ruemara: Speaking of the White Working Class plus the topic of the previous thread:

    ‘Roseanne’ Taping Repeatedly Interrupted By Reporters Trying To Interview Members Of White Working Class https://t.co/fgAaR3rs8k pic.twitter.com/riK8CvTmma— The Onion (@TheOnion) April 4, 2018

    Heh.

  153. 153
    ruemara says:

    @Yarrow: Oh, if only.

  154. 154

    @ruemara: I did link to her op-ed in Vichy TImes when her book came out. Chua is also a mentor to the Hillbilly Elegy’s Vance. She is awful as is Zakaria, I believe he was Huntington’s PhD student.
    In his PhD thesis he argued that market reforms are better indicator of democracy than free and fair elections.

  155. 155
    The Moar You Know says:

    One animal followed a man to his door, where it proceeded to stand up on its hind legs, show its teeth, then fall over backward into an almost comatose condition.

    @Yarrow: Dying of rabies. They seem to have quite the epidemic going on there.

  156. 156

    @ruemara: From what I’ve read she’s talking about “identity politics” in a broad tribal sense–white identity, minority identity, class identity, etc. That Trump won (ETA that he got any votes at all, really) because it was an identitarian election.

  157. 157
    Fair Economist says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Didn’t one of the early 2008 debates have like eight candidates?

    It did, but it also had a dominating candidate (Clinton) and an opposition that united around another (Obama) producing a two-person race. We had the same dynamic in 2016. I don’t see a similar dynamic in 2020, unless it’s about Sanders.

  158. 158
    Yutsano says:

    @The Moar You Know: The video says distemper. It also didn’t say if any of the raccoons had a necropsy.

  159. 159
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @john (not mccain): Agreed. Every time I hear about him, I dislike him a little bit more. I’m really hoping he doesn’t run at all in 2020.

  160. 160
    Cermet says:

    @Fair Economist: You forget O’Malley; he didn’t last long but was both very progressive and young (compared to the others.)

  161. 161
    ruemara says:

    @schrodingers_cat: I saw the praise from JD Vance and realized it needed to be burned. To get me that mad in a few minutes of her talking was some serious goddamned talent.

    @Major Major Major Major: Yes, she is. But she also referred to Democrats victim worshipping or some other similar type of statement. Which was why the fuck you burst out of my mouth. She can say what she wants about Trump winning due to identity, but she also blamed Dems and progressives for the schism caused by identity politics.

  162. 162
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @ruemara: Identity politics for critics of Democrats = showing respect to minority voters’ needs. Actual Republican identity politics = catering to White Working Class including the precious White Supremacists and Neo Nazis.

  163. 163
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Haven’t even tried to read comments yet — long boring story about spending the afternoon in meetings on behalf of an estate I’m executor for, which I hate — but between Bernie and Joe? No question. Between Bernie and anyone? No question.

    ETA: I suppose my comment might come across as ambiguous to people who don’t know me. My vote would be for Joe/against Bernie under all but the most extreme and ridiculous scenarios. Between the two of them? Joe, every time.

  164. 164
    Captain C says:

    @Ridnik Chrome: Biden over Bernie; it’s an easy choice. At this point, if my only two choices were Andrew Cuomo and Bernie, I’d lean towards the former, as he’s shown that for all of his assholery (and probable corruption), he can at least get some good things done.

    I’d say Bernie would be another Jimmy Carter, except that would be unfair to Carter, who was actually a better president than people give him credit for. Not only would Sanders have none of Carter’s good qualities, he’d have all the bad ones, raised to the nth power.

    In terms of effectiveness, I suspect Bernie would make Jimmy Carter look like FDR.

  165. 165

    @Captain C: his foreign policy would probably make Eagle Claw look like Normandy, at the very least

  166. 166
    satby says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    ratfucker Bernie

    Sums him up perfectly. I went from modestly intrigued to slightly negative to a hatred almost as strong as the one for Drumpf. Given the scenario above, my vote would go to Joe. Never, ever, ever would I vote for Bernie.
    It would be the clearest signal yet that it was time to flee the country.

  167. 167
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @JPL: Sad about Rudy and his tiara wearing wife divorcing.

    Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

    First time I’ve smiled in a bit, after a day of bad news

  168. 168
    Princess says:

    @Betty Cracker: I’m a huge fan of Chris Murphy, Betty, and he and Harris are my first choices for 2020. Everyone I know who has met him has been extremely impressed and he radiates decency — I think decency is going to be a good sell in 2020.

  169. 169
    Ben Cisco says:

    Way late to this, but it’s not even close to being close. Joe by a quadrant. I would prefer someone younger, and several of those listed above would be fine.

    As has also been stated above, I’d rather be about 2018 right now.

  170. 170
    MomSense says:

    @Princess:

    I want to add Sally Yates to the list. She has street cred for her integrity and honesty.

  171. 171
    Cacti says:

    Easy choice. Joe.

    I’m a Democrat who votes for Democrats.

    Bernie is not a Democrat, so he doesn’t get my vote.

  172. 172
    dnfree says:

    @Mnemosyne: I agree. I’m from Illinois and she’s my senator. (We’ve done a fairly good job in Illinois at selecting senators over the years. Better than we’ve done at governors.)

  173. 173
    dnfree says:

    @Citizen Alan: Agreed! Bill Clinton showed the possible results of throwing one’s hat in the ring even when it didn’t seem there was a chance and “wiser” potential candidates hung back.

  174. 174
    dnfree says:

    @JCJ: Duckworth served in the military and has missing limbs to prove it. Hard to argue with those qualifications.

  175. 175
    Kathleen says:

    @Spider-Dan: I would not vote for Bernie under any circumstances. Primary, general, anything.

  176. 176
    Kathleen says:

    @ruemara: She was on Bill Maher’s show a few weeks back and I turned channel after 2 minutes. She’s a hack who it seems has copied and pasted every tired trope on Twitter.

  177. 177
    Kathleen says:

    @Yarrow: Sounds like Mary Taylor has stopped taking her meds.

  178. 178
    Spider-Dan says:

    @Kathleen: Your vote is your own, but you do at least realize that such a position validates a good chunk of 2000 Nader voters and 2016 Stein voters, right?

    I do not subscribe to the theory that voting for Nader or Stein was OK if you really, really didn’t like the Democratic candidate. That’s not how our system works, and saying today that you won’t vote for Bernie in the general if he wins the primary is instant affirmation for all the Bernie or Busters who thought that it was OK to bash Hillary and encourage people to vote for Stein. My vote is not a sacred expression of my unique political tastes; when I vote, my first duty is to protect as many Americans as possible from the GOP. Period.

  179. 179
    Kathleen says:

    @Spider-Dan: I think Bernie is every bit as dangerous and toxic as Donald Trump and wouldn’t hesitate to continue to try to destroy this country. I agree with satby up thread. If he’s a choice, we’re in deeper trouble. I hate him with the heat of a million burning suns.

  180. 180
    Spider-Dan says:

    @Kathleen: If you think that Bernie is literally worse than Trump, then you should actually vote for Trump and try to convince others to do the same. If not, then you should vote for Bernie.

    General election voting should not be an expression of consumer preference; you should do everything you can to reduce suffering and despair of real people. Bernie is (significantly) better than Trump and no third-party candidate can win a Presidential general election, therefore I would vote for Bernie without hesitation. And I think it’s rather ridiculous to advocate otherwise.

    Like I said, I can’t even envision a scenario in which I would cast a primary vote for Bernie, but it’s clear that he’s the lesser evil compared to any Republican (to say nothing of Trump). If people on the left still cannot grasp the importance of keeping the GOP out of office, we are in for a tougher road than anticipated.

  181. 181
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Tony Jay:
    I’m seeing this very late, as you can tell by the time stamp. Of course I’m very happy. But I agree with Klopp: what we have is only a half-time lead. And we did lose 5-0 at City this Premier League season, which is the result City need in the second leg to go through. It’s not beyond City to do that again.

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