The Last Word on This Free Speech vs. PC Bullshit

Alex Pareene’s If You Truly Care About Speech, You Will Invite Me to Your Office to Personally Call You a Dipshit:

It’s not enough that I have the right to criticize Bari Weiss, James Bennet, and Bret Stephens here at the web publication I work for, or on Twitter, or really any other platform I have access to. The problem is that there is a platform I don’t have access to—the offices of the New York Times, specifically the opinion section—and, therefore, I have no way to personally and directly criticize the people I find objectionable. That is a clear-cut violation of the principle of open and lively democratic debate.
[…]
How is that acceptable? How will the minds of the New York Times opinion section staff ever be expanded, how will they ever leave their ideological bubble, if they aren’t exposed to ideas that challenge them, like “all of you are charlatans”?

I know it won’t be the last word, but I wish it was. Open thread.






179 replies
  1. 1
    TenguPhule says:

    The greatest freedom is to receive the consequences of your own behavior.

  2. 2
    Corner Stone says:

    Bari Weiss on Morning Joe was a revelation. I am converted to the Cult of Teh Savvy now.

  3. 3
    MisterForkbeard says:

    Pretty much. This is what it means when someone (the right-wing, and some lefties who don’t understand the argument) imply when they get mad about students opposing a speech at their location by Republican Nazi Asshole Flavor Of The Week – it’s not about free speech. These folks are still perfectly free to speak whenever they like on other accommodating platforms. Not getting an invite (or conversely, being cancelled when the local students and stakeholders object to offering THEIR platform to the speaker) isn’t an attack on free speech – it’s an attack on someone odious using their specific platform to move their views forward.

  4. 4
    Raoul says:

    NYT columnists:
    8/10 male
    9/10 white

    Happy Women’s Day, btw.

  5. 5
    Sab says:

    I don’t care about what is on the editorial pages of the Wall Steet Journal. For the exact same reason I don’t care what is on the editorial pages of the New York Times.

    Why are we even debating this? Who cares? Who reads?

  6. 6
    kindness says:

    I love it. You know what that piece reminds me of? When the Onion ran that piece on ‘Why Do All These Gay Men Keep Sucking My Dick?’

  7. 7
    oatler. says:

    But marketing studies have shown! Our figures indicate!

  8. 8
    Calouste says:

    @MisterForkbeard: Lots of people seem to miss that the first amendment starts with “Congress shall make no law…”.

  9. 9
    The Moar You Know says:

    I don’t care about what is on the editorial pages of the Wall Steet Journal. For the exact same reason I don’t care what is on the editorial pages of the New York Times.

    @Sab: Neither do I.

    Why are we even debating this? Who cares? Who reads?

    Sadly, a fair number of voters and a lot of the “decisionmakers” do.

  10. 10
    Corner Stone says:

    @Sab: While I support your choice to inoculate yourself against the evil stupidity of both the WSJ and NYT, I am afraid their reach is a little longer than the Sab household.

  11. 11
    raven says:

    “I know it won’t be the last word, but I wish it was.” What I like best are the constant “you should unsubscribe” posts. I’ll subscribe to whatever the fuck I want to.

  12. 12
    different-church-lady says:

    @Sab: Opinion IS the news now. Nobody gives a shit about facts in reporting. It’s all entertainment, and this entertainment is driving voting.

  13. 13
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    No one is entitled to an audience. This isn’t hard.

  14. 14
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @MisterForkbeard: unrelated, your story checks out. My Redwood City guy lives close to Refuge says he’s a regular and it’s great. You now have cred with regard to food in addition to your previously established beer cred.

    Congratulations.

  15. 15
    Yutsano says:

    @MisterForkbeard: http://www.xkcd.com/1357

    I’ve had to use this one so much it’s almost in my DNA at this point.

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: Or this is basically wot you said.

  16. 16
    Roger Moore says:

    @MisterForkbeard:
    The underlying problem is that there’s now an entire troll complex devoted to inviting objectionable right wing assholes to speak at colleges and then whining about the illiberal left if anyone complains. There are bonus points if Antifa (or anyone declaring themselves to be Antifa) shows up and starts a riot. The whole point is not the speech; it’s trolling the liberals and then having easy material for columns decrying liberals for getting upset about it.

  17. 17
    Roger Moore says:

    @Yutsano:

    I’ve had to use this one so much it’s almost in my DNA at this point.

    The alt-text on that one is even better than the main text.

  18. 18
    Corner Stone says:

    @Steve in the SFO: Union busting lawyer *and* an investigative journalist? Oh, Steve. Is there anything you can’t do?

  19. 19
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Yutsano:
    When freedom of thought is somehow repressed, then right wingers can get back to me.

  20. 20
    ruemara says:

    I just discovered there’s a Black Panther Build a Bear and I’m thinking of making my 30 year old teddy jealous.

    Also, fuck white male centered punditry.

  21. 21
    Timurid says:

    @kindness:

    “You’re not here for the hunting, are you?”

  22. 22
    Older says:

    What this reminds me of is the best-ever letter-to-the-editor. Sent to the editor of Biblical Archaeology magazine, it read (approximately) “I am tired of all these readers writing in to complain about your editorial policies. Please cancel their subscriptions.”

  23. 23
    gvg says:

    I get the WaPo electronically. I have noticed that the morning email with links always has a lot of featured opinion writers and not many straight news reports. I read some of them but I do wonder if they are sending content based on what I have read in the past or if everyone gets about the same email. I click on some of the links….
    Even the electronic page site of both WaPo and NYT’s is laid out differently than the paper copy. My parents get the NYT paper. they are in their 70’s and haven’t switched to the newer ways of getting news even though dad was actually a computer designer. I wonder though if the younger people even know “papers” are supposed to offer facts with just a few opinions somewhere. I have to hunt fact articles even on better news sites.
    They still watch the news every evening and it’s not that bad. they found Maddow and Reid on their own, but I am not sure many others do.
    I am a bit odd in preferring to read news because I can’t stand the noise of people yakking more than my taste.

  24. 24
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @Corner Stone: keep my souffle from falling. [sad face emoji]

  25. 25
    Litlebritdifrnt says:

    @Calouste: Exactly. The Government is not denying these people the right to speak. Period. As far as I am aware the Government hasn’t denied the right to speak since what Lincoln?

  26. 26
    Yutsano says:

    @Roger Moore: Che bella. I somehow forgot what that said there.

    @ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) : No one has ever told anyone in the at right that they can’t think what they think. Hell no one has ever said they can’t say it in public. They’ve even been granted public forums. It’s a great reminder of how their ideas aren’t nearly as popular as they think that these reactions happen.

    Having said that: Antifa boo we gotta talk. The way you’re handling this shit ain’t working.

  27. 27
    japa21 says:

    I will be an election judge on 3/20 for the Illinois Primary. Last year for a general election about the same time, April, we set up in a school and because school was open we were in a hallway way at the back of the school. This year, same location, but the district is closing all its schools (many are used as polling places) so it is easier for voters to get through the lines, etc.
    It will also be a lot easier for us to do the set up and tear down.

    ETA, Yes I know totally OT.

  28. 28
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Raoul: I was thinking that today. I don’t read the NYT as much as I used to, but is Bob Herbert really the only full-time columnist who’s a person of color?

    @The Moar You Know: Ezra Klein told the story years ago, so anecdtata, of being on an elevator in the Senate office building and one Dem gravely asked another, “Did you read Friedman today?” I don’t know if the Stache was calling for a very serious war, or for some very serious outreach from Dems to Rs, but can you imagine one of them every saying, in grave tones, “did you read Krugman today?”

  29. 29
    Mnemosyne says:

    Personally, I think we should all take our inspiration from Alexander Hamilton, who ran around downtown New York getting into fistfights with other speakers who disagreed with him about the Jay treaty with England. (He was for, they were against.)

    Forcing Maureen O’Dowd or Thomas Friedman to publicly debate some of their critics would be win/win for everyone but them.

  30. 30
    Yutsano says:

    @Litlebritdifrnt: There was Schenck Vs the US in 1919 which found there were cases where the government could restrict speech. It was noted that this was a wartime restriction, which is something we should keep the Dolt45 administration blissfully unaware.

  31. 31
    Mnemosyne says:

    @japa21:

    Thank you for your service. 🇺🇸

  32. 32
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    He forgot to mention the dreck that is Douchehat, or Friedman Unit, or the particularly odious sack of barnyard waste that is BoBo.

    Every one of these “thought leaders” needs to be taken to the cleaners, or in the case of BoBo, the back alley to be exsanguinated.

  33. 33
    The Moar You Know says:

    Forcing Maureen O’Dowd or Thomas Friedman to publicly debate some of their critics would be win/win for everyone but them.

    @Mnemosyne: I am a terrible debater and fundamentally not that bright but I have every confidence I could dismantle those two in any debate, any topic, any time, any place.

  34. 34
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Roger Moore: I’m old enough to remember when this was called “Westboro Baptist Church.”

  35. 35
    different-church-lady says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I’ve come to view the term “thought leader” to be an alternate way of spelling “bullshitter”.

  36. 36
    Yutsano says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    the back alley to be exsanguinated.

    Calling not-it on the clean-up!

  37. 37
    Corner Stone says:

    Ok, I need these idiots to shut up so we can get to Nicolle Wallace’s show.

  38. 38
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @ruemara: White male centered punditry is a vile tumor on our polity. It should be excised aggressively and decisively.

  39. 39
    FlyingToaster says:

    @Yutsano:

    Antifa boo we gotta talk. The way you’re handling this shit ain’t working.

    Since there’s no such organization, good luck finding someone to talk to.

    At the Boston counterprotests last year, bandana’d Antifa were the ones giving out bottles of water to people on the march and on the Common.

    However, at the 2017 Women’s March, there were a few Black Bloc folk calling themselves Antifa (they were wearing what looked like boy burkas, but in black). Because there’s no actual organization called “Antifa”, anyone can cover their face and call themselves that.

    If I could figure out better ventilation, I’d wear a fucking V mask.

    –FT, back to waiting for Neversource to remove their fucking pole

  40. 40
    Corner Stone says:

    @Steve in the SFO: Well…you are in the SFO…no time like the present for some executive time education!

  41. 41
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    So if I’m understanding twitter and my muted tele screen correctly, trump just signed another meaningless executive order with a lot of blue collar people brought in as props.

  42. 42
    cthulhu says:

    Good to see that Pareene has a new venue. I’ve tried to keep track of him since the Salon days.

  43. 43
    geg6 says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    Don’t forget the ladies. Specifically, MoDo.

  44. 44
    Peale says:

    @Yutsano: Well, since Korean and Japanese steel poses a security threat to the US, I’m imagining that people complaining about the tariff should just shut up lest they be seen as helping the enemy..

  45. 45

    Cadet Bonespurs just signed his bigly tariffs. This should be lots of fun. Of course, we can be sure that anything that goes wrong here will be Obama’s fault.

  46. 46
    ruemara says:

    @japa21: Thank you for doing this!

    @Villago Delenda Est: considering how many of them find ways to bend over backwards & excuse Nazis, I’m willing to use a flamethrower.

  47. 47
    germy says:

    Today, on #InternationalWomensDay – and ALL days – we recognize the countless contributions women have made to our economy, our communities, & our Nation. The Trump Admin will continue to strive to empower women across America to keep making a profound impact.— Vice President Mike Pence (@VP) March 8, 2018

    Nice try. We are coming for you. And we will take you. And we will sit you down. And we will have LUNCH with you. https://t.co/anqWIo9Mhn— Bess Kalb (@bessbell) March 8, 2018

    "Just grab them by the p***y," right, Mike? You do your little best to strip away women's rights and you're so messed up in the head you won't even sit with women unless accompanied by your wife. Get away from us, you creep. https://t.co/ieBhkVQqwi— Maureen Johnson (@maureenjohnson) March 8, 2018

  48. 48
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I don’t read the NYT as much as I used to, but is Bob Herbert really the only full-time columnist who’s a person of color?

    I thought he left years ago? His twit feed says until 2011 and now with Demos Org.

    ETA, Charles Blow is an NYT columnist

  49. 49
    Immanentize says:

    @raven: Seconded

  50. 50
    The Moar You Know says:

    So if I’m understanding twitter and my muted tele screen correctly, trump just signed another meaningless executive order with a lot of blue collar people brought in as props.

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: If it’s that goddamned tariff bullshit, that is not meaningless. It’s a fucking catastrophe.

  51. 51
    Yutsano says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Ad Mr Mayhew is so fond of saying: There Will Be Lawyers.

    @FlyingToaster: Heh. I knew I needed a sarcasm tag there. I figured that was obvious. Not to mention these idiots claiming the name are showing up in oddly regular numbers. I smell copulation of rodentia here.

  52. 52
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Bob Herbert is at least retired and quite possibly dead. I think the one black oped columnist is Charles Blow, who is EXCELLENT.

  53. 53
    Mnemosyne says:

    @ruemara:

    The Giant Evil Corporation is doing a huge push on diversity and inclusion and how it’s not just the right thing to do, it’s the profitable thing to do. Or, as Mr. Macy says in Miracle on 34th Street:

    We’ll be known as the helpful store…the friendly store, the store with a heart…the store that places public service ahead of profits.

    And, consequently, we’ll make more profits than ever before.

    Hey, whatever works.

  54. 54
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Corner Stone: Damn. Been longer than I thought. At the height of the Bush years, I knew every NTY and (almost) every WaPo columnist and what days they posted new stuff on.
    ETA: part of the fun of the WaPo back in the day was the live chats columnists did, even Old Man Broder. There was this guy from Rochester who used to troll him beautifully. I wonder whatever happened to that guy

  55. 55
    zhena gogolia says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    He’s alive but retired.

  56. 56
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s even better than that:

    Philip Rucker
    ‏Verified account @PhilipRucker
    4h4 hours ago

    Trump on tariffs: “I’m sticking with 10 and 25 initially. I’ll have a right to go up or down depending on the country and I’ll have a right to drop out countries or add countries. I just want fairness, because we have not been treated fairly by other countries.”

    Bold added

  57. 57
    oatler. says:

    Even if Trump resigned today we’d have a bloody civil war.

  58. 58
    Brachiator says:

    @Sab:

    Why are we even debating this? Who cares? Who reads?

    Apparently, NY Times columnist Farhad Manjoo reads. He went luddite and read only print newspapers for two whole months. Oh, the horror!

    This has been my life for nearly two months. In January, after the breaking-newsiest year in recent memory, I decided to travel back in time. I turned off my digital news notifications, unplugged from Twitter and other social networks, and subscribed to home delivery of three print newspapers — The Times, The Wall Street Journal and my local paper, The San Francisco Chronicle — plus a weekly newsmagazine, The Economist….

    It has been life changing. Turning off the buzzing breaking-news machine I carry in my pocket was like unshackling myself from a monster who had me on speed dial, always ready to break into my day with half-baked bulletins.

    Basically, he learned that Twitter and FaceBook are bad for you. Next, he is going to have lunch at one of the last Applebee’s with David Brooks.

    So, college students protest and get rowdy, but the invited speaker still gets to give her speech and take questions. At the end of the day, the only negative outcome is that this provides grist for Fox News to do their inevitable BS on how college campuses have become liberal “no go zones” where Jesus loving all American conservatives fear to tread.

  59. 59
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I saw that on the TV in the cafeteria and could not figure out where the hell Mike Pence was sitting or standing because he was proportionately so much smaller than Trump. I swear to God he looked like he was a ventriloquist’s dummy sitting on Trump’s lap.

  60. 60
    Roger Moore says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    I’m old enough to remember when this was called “Westboro Baptist Church.”

    Westboro Baptist had a slightly different trolling system. They protested offensively at military funerals in the hopes people would physically attack them and they could sue.

  61. 61
    Aleta says:

    @Raoul:
    On one hand, a good thread, twitter NYT. (Obituaries for notable women who never got them.)
    On the other hand: It never occurred to them to do this until women’s month?
    Or more likely (and kinda worse): They did think of it some time ago, and said: “Hey good idea; save this for women’s month.”

  62. 62
    ruemara says:

    @Mnemosyne: You know, he probably is.

  63. 63
    The Moar You Know says:

    I saw that on the TV in the cafeteria and could not figure out where the hell Mike Pence was sitting or standing because he was proportionately so much smaller than Trump. I swear to God he looked like he was a ventriloquist’s dummy sitting on Trump’s lap.

    @Mnemosyne: It’s the weight. They’re just about the same height.

  64. 64
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Daniel W. Dresser @ dandrezner
    Mnuchin had to remind Trump to actually sign the stupid tariffs.

    again

  65. 65
    Yutsano says:

    @ruemara: That means that Dolt45 has his small hand up his butt and…Eww. Just…Eww.

  66. 66
    FlyingToaster says:

    @Yutsano: Sorry, I couldn’t tell you were in Comic Sans.

  67. 67
    Aleta says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    a lot of blue collar people brought in as props

    Or are low-cost actors easier and more obedient?

  68. 68

    @Corner Stone:

    I’ll have a right to go up or down depending on the country and I’ll have a right to drop out countries or add countries.

    Cool. I hear markets love that sort of shit.

  69. 69
    germy says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    again

    Stormy knows all about trump not signing stuff…

  70. 70
    Aleta says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    he looked like he was a ventriloquist’s dummy sitting on Trump’s lap

    Really wish a cartoonist or clip artist would make this image, to scale.

  71. 71
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Major Major Major Major: for all we talk about Russia– and we should probably be talking about it more– seems to me China is the big winner of the trump presidency.

  72. 72
    Roger Moore says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Trump on tariffs: “I’m sticking with 10 and 25 initially. I’ll have a right to go up or down depending on the country and I’ll have a right to drop out countries or add countries. I just want fairness, because we have not been treated fairly by other countries.”

    Shorter Trump:bribes to lower your tariffs gratefully accepted.

  73. 73
    Chyron HR says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Don’t miss tomorrow’s exciting episode: “Tariff No-Go” or “25 or 10 to Fair”.

  74. 74

    @FlyingToaster: can we agree that the people who believe that violence is the appropriate response to, say, a speech by Milo, should maybe …not do that? (I have friends who believe this. It’s a fringe position but not a straw man.)

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: incidental though, it seems to me. They’re ascendant regardless, Trump is just creating even more vacuum for them to fill.

  75. 75
    Corner Stone says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Sure thing! Businesses LOVE making investment decisions for capital intensive projects not knowing if some rate will be jacked or some other one lowered. They love not knowing if their HQ country will get the whammy on any moments whim. It’s a real win-win, when you think about it.

  76. 76

    @Mnemosyne: Fuck Mr. Macy and his fun house and lobotomy clinic. Am I still bitter about him laying off madame? Maybe.

  77. 77
    rikyrah says:

    They do not want ‘ freedom of speech.’

    They want ‘freedom of consequences from said speech.’

  78. 78
    Corner Stone says:

    @Roger Moore: Shorter CEO who flatters Trump and has his ear: You know, that’s a nice little business they have going. Be a shame if anything happened to it. I mean, I am sure they didn’t mean to disrespect your manly authority or anything…

  79. 79
    germy says:

    Sen Flake says he will introduce legislation to nullify Trump’s tariffs

    — Burgess Everett (@burgessev) March 8, 2018

  80. 80
    Corner Stone says:

    To be fair, it’s not like a President Oprah would be any better: “You get a tariff! And you get a tariff! Everybody gets a tariff!!”

  81. 81
    Yutsano says:

    @germy: Ball. In your court Yertle.

  82. 82
    rikyrah says:

    Just dust….

    Tybre Faw traveled 7 hours to see his hero, Rep. John Lewis, who was in Selma, Alabama, to commemorate the anniversary of Bloody Sunday. The boy became emotional when they met, and Lewis invited him to march with him toward the Edmund Pettus Bridge https://t.co/VGMmKKUJ3F pic.twitter.com/XhZ2Yd8sdt

    — CNN Politics (@CNNPolitics) March 8, 2018

  83. 83
    Mnemosyne says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    It’s not just that. Pence was somehow seated lower on the right side of the screen and was a smaller size than Trump in the middle of the screen. At first I thought he was a still image pasted in because the press conference was about him or something, but then he moved and blinked.

    It was super creepy, even for Pence.

  84. 84

    @Yutsano: Yertle whose state’s economy will be affected by a retaliatory tariff on bourbon…

  85. 85

    @germy:New CNN headline: Having solved the DACA stalemate, Jeff Flake is taking his resolute leadership to another pressing matter,

  86. 86
    Mnemosyne says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    FWIW, Mr. Macy is a fictional character — by the time the movie was made, no member of the Macy family was still involved with the store, as far as I know.

    Macy’s has basically managed to kill their own company, so it may ultimately be for the best that Madame got out before the whole thing collapses, even though her departure was involuntary.

  87. 87
    FlyingToaster says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Sure.

    But claiming that “Antifa” is violent is like claiming that food is Jello. Some food or foodlike substances might be, but the Venn diagram goes the opposite way.

    Antifa is a label that anyone who wants to try to defeat facial recognition systems uses. Some of them are violent nazi-punching antifascists; some are gentle, water-bottle-distributing antifascists.

    Like most of the jackals here, I run to the less-violence end of the spectrum. Even if we have sympathy for nazi-punching, we’re unlikely to endorse it unless the nazi starts vandalizing our shit. At which point, all Batman KA-POW!!! on the nazi’s stupid ass.

  88. 88
    Yutsano says:

    @Major Major Major Major: There’s fairly large IRS processing campus in Covington, which is just a burb of Cincinnati really. Still it’s south of the river, so there’s that.

    You also forgot horses. Apparently they’re still a thing there.

  89. 89
    Corner Stone says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Right after he gives an impassioned speech denouncing Trump.

  90. 90
    Mnemosyne says:

    @rikyrah:

    I still love that Rep. Lewis went to ComiCon with his graphic novel and cosplayed as himself from the Selma march. 😍

  91. 91
  92. 92
    Brachiator says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Trump on tariffs: “I’m sticking with 10 and 25 initially. I’ll have a right to go up or down depending on the country and I’ll have a right to drop out countries or add countries. I just want fairness, because we have not been treated fairly by other countries.”

    The country is being held hostage by an emotionally stunted bonehead with a massive chip on his shoulder.

    He keeps bleating about “fairness” and how all the presidents and politicians before him were either weak or suckers, and that he is the only one who can right these wrongs and make sure that no one will ever fuck with the US of A again. There is no philosophy or ideology at the bottom of this. No conservative principles. Or the Randian drivel the Paul Ryan laps up. Just the massive sense of grievance of the Whiny Ass Titty Baby in Chief.

  93. 93
    woodrowfan says:

    @ruemara: disappointed. I thought it’d have a beret and a “Free Huey” shirt…

  94. 94
    different-church-lady says:

    @Brachiator:

    Basically, he learned that Twitter and FaceBook are bad for you.

    That’s funny: I would have thought being on Twitter and Facebook would be the thing that would convince a sane person they’re bad for you.

  95. 95

    @FlyingToaster: “Antifa” (and most of the black bloc idiots) is mostly people trying to be cool by importing radical leftism from other countries. And then the people who glom on to them. There’s no there there, you’re right. But it’s frustrating nonetheless how insanely easy it is to troll (some of!) them, in sufficient numbers to set the VIOLENT RIOTS IN BERKELEY LOL narrative.

  96. 96
    Mnemosyne says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Yeah, but she’s fucking Kelly, too:

    Meanwhile, other senior officials, including the deputy secretary of D.H.S., struggled to get one-on-one access to Kelly because Nielsen controlled his schedule and effectively shut them out. “She built a wall around him,” one former official told me. “She was with him constantly, even when he travelled. It was all about her getting face time with Kelly and also making the political appointees happy.”

  97. 97
    WaterGirl says:

    @kindness: That might have been the greatest Onion piece of all time!

  98. 98

    @zhena gogolia:

    Bob Herbert is retired, but happily, not dead. He’s only 72.

  99. 99
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    Most savvy pundits avoid me like the plague because I’m a raging prick (shut up, Corner Stone), but I’ve had two who actually were willing to engage me in Twit-land – McArglebargle and Carl Quintanilla. Both were OK with the abuse – cheerful, even. They took the lashing.

    Griftwald periodically blocks me. Chuck Todd always blocks me.

  100. 100
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Calouste: True, though I think there’s a decent argument about following the spirit of “freedom of speech” rather than the explicit law. Opposing viewpoints are valuable and shouldn’t be silenced, but that presupposes a few things that aren’t evident there: That the viewpoints are sincerely held (they’re not), that the university is the only place these views can be aired (they’re not), and that the students themselves aren’t exercising their OWN free speech in protesting against malicious bad actors (they are!).

    @Steve in the SFO: Rad. There’s also a pretty decent german beer garden in downtown Redwood City if you feel the need – they basically do “german” bar food, which means you can get fantastic brats, pretzels, and other things in addition to your german beer.

    I also get a lot of international alcohol from my workmates – I have friends in Manila and in the Czech Republic that regularly bring me local varieties. You ever get too bored in the area, lemme know and I’ll dig out whatever’s currently under my desk.

  101. 101

    I just can’t

  102. 102
    Shana says:

    @MisterForkbeard: Which is why a very large group of University of Chicago alumni are complaining that the university has invited Steve Bannon.

  103. 103
    OldDave says:

    @The Moar You Know:
    “Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.”
    ― George Carlin

  104. 104
  105. 105
    different-church-lady says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: McArglebargle was probably too dumb to realize you were abusing her.

  106. 106
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Chuck Todd always blocks me.

    I know this is a bold claim, but I think Chuck Todd may be the dumbest parishioner in the Church of the Savvy. I’ll never forget him bringing MSNBC’s debate coverage to a halt to assure his viewers that Kellyanne Conway was a “good person”.

  107. 107
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @ruemara: Oh my god. I might need to get this, and I haven’t even watched Black Panther yet.

    @Corner Stone: So basically, Trump STILL hasn’t figured out what the fuck he’s doing? He signed an EO stating he could enact a tariff or something?

  108. 108
    Yutsano says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: The Doctor needs to be getting on fixing this timeline NOW.

  109. 109
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I usually defend Antifa on principle (They hate fascists? They’re probably good). It’s normally the neo-Nazis, as in Charlottesville, who start the violent fights. Like you said, if its California, the Black Bloc is probably to blame. I’ll never forget when Richard Spencer got punched in the face; it was amazing. However, violence is a last resort, imo.

  110. 110
    Corner Stone says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: What? I would just say you are a raging asshole with interesting sex fetishi.

  111. 111
    Shana says:

    @japa21: Nice. Here in Virginia we have elections every year, so the Monday and Tuesday in November are always scheduled for Teacher Work Days or some such and the students have those days off since so many polling places are schools.

  112. 112
    Corner Stone says:

    Trump called Cohn a Jew a few times then called him a weak pussy.

  113. 113
    Yutsano says:

    @ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) :

    I’ll never forget when Richard Spencer got punched in the face

    To be fair, that had nothing to do with Antifa. That was just a random guy frustrated with his neo-Nazi bullshite. I don’t endorse that violence but did I smirk over it? Bear shit in woods much?

  114. 114

    @Yutsano: Chris Hayes tweeted something the other day about how the screenwriters have gone off the rails, introducing too many characters from too many countries too quickly.

  115. 115
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Well, the Daily Caller never claimed to be smart, right? Or an actual journalistic outfit?

  116. 116
    Yutsano says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Ha. Already sounds like Moffat! All we need now is some poorly written Daleks and we’re good.

  117. 117
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Yutsano: Yeah. My own response to this was “The puncher should be arrested for what’s clearly minor assault, but Spencer totally deserved it and I applaud the puncher’s conviction to perform this act knowing he’d be caught and sentenced. He still shouldn’t have done it.”

  118. 118
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Yutsano:
    Trump has the sports almanac.

    “Marty!”

  119. 119
    Corner Stone says:

    @MisterForkbeard:

    So basically, Trump STILL hasn’t figured out what the fuck he’s doing? He signed an EO stating he could enact a tariff or something?

    No, he signed an EO and stated he could fuck with any country or industry or both at no moments notice. He’s acting like a 6 year old who has been made a mafia don.

  120. 120
    Patricia Kayden says:

    From the link:

    For example, I can call Bari Weiss a ridiculous hypocrite for posing as a champion of free speech on campus after spending her own time in college organizing a harassment campaign intended to deny or strip tenure from “pro-Palestinian” professors, but, absent that invitation, I have no way of making her listen to me say that, which has an obvious chilling effect.

    Says it all about the hypocrisy of the Rightwing free speech brigade. They’re not about free speech. They’re about promoting fascism and silencing their political opponents.

  121. 121
    Mnemosyne says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Normally I would be more reticent about thinking that’s how an attractive woman got her job, but when she’s an incompetent and unqualified attractive woman who seems to be joined at the hip to the more powerful man who hired her, the implications are too strong to ignore.

    They apparently still travel together even though he’s now the Chief of Staff. He’s fucking her.

  122. 122
    rikyrah says:

    “I believe that just like the civil rights movement, it was the young people who said we’ve had enough…I believe that we’re on the verge of something really, really big” says @Oprah on Parkland students pic.twitter.com/jBMco5JSva

    — ryan kadro (@RyanKadro) March 6, 2018

  123. 123
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Yutsano:
    Was that guy ever caught?

  124. 124
    rikyrah says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    WAIT WAIT WAIT.

    The Daily Caller published an op-ed from oligarch Oleg Deripaska on Mueller? https://t.co/N4fd4EHFq2

    He’s the guy in the MIDDLE of the insane Trump/sex worker/Thailand jail scandalhttps://t.co/MfHJ8dT5cT

    — Hayes Brown (@HayesBrown) March 8, 2018

    UH HUH
    UH HUH

  125. 125
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Chuck Todd is definitely the most dedicated to Both Siderism on MSNBC. If you combine him on NBC along with his former running buddy Savannah Guthrie you have the foundational duo of the Cult of teh Savvy Both Siders.

  126. 126
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Spot on.

    I have no way of making her listen to me say that, which has an obvious chilling effect.

    Even if she did, Weiss would just dismiss what she said. I mean for fuck’s sake, Weiss used “Social Justice Warriors” unironically. She’s a stupid person who has no business writing for the NYT, shitty as it is.

  127. 127
    The Lodger says:

    @Aleta: A cartoonist could do that with Jeff Sessions, without the bother of having to resize him.

  128. 128
    Yutsano says:

    @MisterForkbeard: Mine was more, “Dude I get the feeling but why did you make him an easy martyr like that?” Was sti kinda proud of the puncher. And I saw the guy: Spencer got off easily.

    @ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) : I figure you know by now Biff was partially modeled after Dolt45. Even in his younger days he was a joke.

    @Mnemosyne:

    He’s fucking her.

    Indubitably. Is she married?

  129. 129
    Yutsano says:

    @ Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) : I want to say he was (it was an AA guy as I recall) but I don’t know what became of the case after that.

  130. 130
    Corner Stone says:

    We are going to have to impeach and indict Trump or he will win again in 2020.

  131. 131
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:
    I’ll bite: how’s he going to win again?

  132. 132
  133. 133
    different-church-lady says:

    The inimitable Mr. Charles Pierce (via LG&M):

    …but I also wish that there weren’t so many people making nice bank on insulting people and then driving nails into their own palms when the people they deliberately have offended talk back to them.

  134. 134
    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: We are going to have to impeach and indict Trump because it’s the right thing to do.

  135. 135
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Yutsano:
    When Marty Realizes Trump is President

    I figured that out. Biff should have totally been POTUS in BTTF 2.

  136. 136
    FlyingToaster says:

    @Yutsano: He wasn’t; various people were accused but all were not in DC at the time.

    From the video, there’s no way of telling what race the puncher was.

  137. 137
    mike in dc says:

    God Bless Alex Pareene for this. He used to compile an annual Hack list of the worst, most schlocky political pundits, people like Halperin, Cilizza, et al. It’s nice (and very necessary) to have lefty writers who bluntly call out the various kinds of bs spewed out by both the rightwing noise machine and the hacky beltway media/VSP. We need a lot more like him.

  138. 138
    Mary G says:

    Tablet won’t let me embed tweets, but Sen. Kamala has one https://twitter.com/SenKamalaHarris/status/971860609494126594
    Tomorrow is the last day to comment on opening up offshore drilling, see her tweet for the link.

  139. 139
    trollhattan says:

    @The Lodger:
    Jack Ohman had lots of fun with the li’l tyrant after yesterday’s threatdown of California, while in California.

  140. 140
    Corner Stone says:

    @schrodingers_cat: This tariff nonsense has snowed all the WWC people that it was intended to bowl over. They are not going to pay attention to porn stars, Russia probes, Kushner playing footsie, none of that shit. They are all going to remember someone “fought” for them and forget everything else. I just listened to Trumka with AFL-CIO earlier and Leo Gerard of USW. They both have put on the knee pads for Trump on this issue.

  141. 141
    ruemara says:

    @Mnemosyne: That was the best moment! I mean, I had to run backwards to try and get a shot, but it was worth it.

    @Corner Stone: Saw Trumpka say that a few days ago. He got a lot of pushback, but I fear the stupid damage is already done.

  142. 142

    @Corner Stone: Its still early March. A trade war with the entire world is not going to end well. Besides, many of them were going to vote R anyway.

  143. 143
    ruemara says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Hayes needs to shut up and focus on growing another chest hair.

  144. 144
    Kayla Rudbek says:

    @Mnemosyne: and did you see that Mattel is making a Barbie doll of Katherine Johnson of Hidden Figures fame?

  145. 145
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Corner Stone: Wonder how the UAW feels about the USW’s win.

  146. 146
    Roger Moore says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Apparently got her job despite being unqualified is because she is super loyal to T.

    This is hardly news. Trump promotes loyalty above competence in all things.

  147. 147
    Aleta says:

    @The Lodger: Sessions could dance across the laps of Reconstruction era lawmakers, judges and wardens, and the plantation owners and corporations who bought leases on enslaved black convicts from at least 1844. For almost the next 100 years, at least. He speaks and works for those fiends and monsters.

  148. 148
    tobie says:

    @Corner Stone: Sorry to hear this. Don’t see how a trade war will create more jobs for AFL-CIO and USW members.

  149. 149
    Roger Moore says:

    @WaterGirl:

    That might have been the greatest Onion piece of all time!

    It’s hard to top “Bush: ‘Our Long National Nightmare Of Peace And Prosperity Is Finally Over’“.

  150. 150
    Corner Stone says:

    @tobie: They believe it will lead to investment in steel mill industry. Too bad for them that investment will be in automation. Which I think they are lying to their members about.

  151. 151
    Aleta says:

    @Aleta:

    The end of convict leasing did not mean the end of convict labor, however. The state (Tennessee) sited its new penitentiary, Brushy Mountain State Penitentiary, with the help of geologists. The prison built a working coal mine on the site, dependent on labor done by prisoners, and ran it at significant profit. These prison mines closed in 1966.

  152. 152
    tobie says:

    This is probably a stupid question but is Trump claiming that Canada and Mexico put tariffs on US goods and that’s why he wants punitive tariffs? I didn’t think it was possible for Canada and Mexico to tax US imports because of NAFTA. Isn’t the US the one now violating the agreement? Is there some history I’m missing here?

  153. 153

    @Mary G: We mere mortals cannot embed tweets.

  154. 154
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Swear to god, I’m at the point of wanting the sainted WWC (Peace Be Unto Them) to wither and starve. I want their three bedroom tract homes with carport a and detached garages to collapse from deferred maintenance, their ATVs and bass boats to fall into disuse and disrepair, their only value being scrap. I want their precious Emotional Support Rifle collections to rust, and the holsters for their Emotional Support Sidearms to get so bound down with lard from eating processed foods and cheese whiz while drinking Big Red and Bud Light that they can’t pull it out. I want their badly socialized pit bulls to destroy their furniture while eating the TV remote. I want their pickups repoed, and their Lee Greenwood CDs scratched….

  155. 155
    different-church-lady says:

    @Roger Moore: Hell, that was the greatest prediction of all time.

  156. 156
    The Lodger says:

    @trollhattan: I miss Jack Ohman. He was the cartoonist at my local paper for years and years. Glad he is still working, considering the state of the newspaper business.

  157. 157
    debbie says:

    @Corner Stone:

    In all fairness, I hope the bill Flake’s introducing to repeal tariffs wins by a voice vote.

  158. 158
    catclub says:

    @Brachiator:

    Next, he is going to have lunch at one of the last Applebee’s with David Brooks.

    Not really fair. What he learned was that there are a LOT of opinions on the internet, but (relatively) more facts in the newspapers.

  159. 159
    catclub says:

    @Corner Stone: 1.I think he won’t get re-elected.
    2. I do not think either impeachment or felony conviction are a bar to being elected President.

  160. 160
    smintheus says:

    @Roger Moore: That’s the game for some. For many, it’s about power. They don’t like that conservatives’ ideas no longer predominate among students and many faculty, so their solution is to leverage right-wing money to highjack campus venues to inculcate people with their own views. If by some miracle they were to succeed, they wouldn’t reverse course and try to inject more liberal viewpoints on campus. So it’s about taking over campus discourse.

    I’m so old I remember when faculties were dominated by conservatives on most campuses; they did not welcome liberal viewpoints. In fact, the only professors of mine who injected their political views into the classroom were arch-conservatives. I never once heard a liberal political view expressed in class, even though I attended what was already then regarded as a notoriously liberal university.

  161. 161
    mad citizen says:

    @different-church-lady: “I’ve come to view the term “thought leader” to be an alternate way of spelling “bullshitter”.” Yes! A thousand times yes! I’m using this at work next time I get a chance.

  162. 162
    KithKanan says:

    @catclub:

    Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

    — U.S. Constitution – Article 1 Section 3

  163. 163
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    The country is being held hostage by an emotionally stunted bonehead with a massive chip on his shoulder.

    Please apologize to boneheads everywhere.

  164. 164
    debbie says:

    @Mary G:

    Here you go:

    DEADLINE: The public comment period for the Trump Administration’s plan to open our shores to offshore oil drilling ends tomorrow. Act now and make your voice heard. Here’s the link: https://t.co/uL3Tdcpw4c— Kamala Harris (@SenKamalaHarris) March 8, 2018

  165. 165
    TenguPhule says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I just listened to Trumka with AFL-CIO earlier and Leo Gerard of USW. They both have put on the knee pads for Trump on this issue.

    Whelp, so much for eating ever again today.

  166. 166
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Kayla Rudbek:

    I posted it on Facebook yesterday! I have the national March for Science page on my feed and they posted about it.

    Trying to figure out if my (soon to be) 13-year-old mixed-race niece is too old for Barbies … 🤔

  167. 167
    matt says:

    @raven: Well go on ahead and take the cash out of your ‘bad motherfucker’ wallet and pay the people at NYT then, you rebel you.

  168. 168
    trollhattan says:

    @The Lodger:
    We’re happy to stealhave him, and McClatchy is probably as good a home as he could have found. He replaced the brilliant Rex Babin who was stolen at 49 from us all by cancer.

  169. 169
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    Swear to god, I’m at the point of wanting the sainted WWC (Peace Be Unto Them) to wither and starve. I want their three bedroom tract homes with carport a and detached garages to collapse from deferred maintenance, their ATVs and bass boats to fall into disuse and disrepair, their only value being scrap. I want their precious Emotional Support Rifle collections to rust, and the holsters for their Emotional Support Sidearms to get so bound down with lard from eating processed foods and cheese whiz while drinking Big Red and Bud Light that they can’t pull it out. I want their badly socialized pit bulls to destroy their furniture while eating the TV remote. I want their pickups repoed, and their Lee Greenwood CDs scratched….

    You, sir, are a fucking poet.

  170. 170
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @MisterForkbeard: a very generous offer, thank you. There is not a lot of free time during bargaining, but I may have to build some in so I can sample some exotic booze!

  171. 171
    Brachiator says:

    @catclub:

    Not really fair. What he learned was that there are a LOT of opinions on the internet, but (relatively) more facts in the newspapers.

    More than fair. It would be as if he only read the op-ed section of newspapers and then complained that print media had a LOT of opinions, but relatively few facts.

  172. 172
    tobie says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    You, sir, are a fucking poet.

    I second this regarding @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:’s comment.

    I feel like today is one of the most consequential days of the Trump presidency. He just overturned the entire post-WWII economic order by introducing a broad-based tariff, as opposed to one meant to either (a) punish a particular country for dumping a particular good or (b) retaliate against a country that has imposed tariffs on the US. What’s happened today is the economic equivalent of destroying NATO. What will happen next–the decision will be appealed to the WTO. If the WTO objects to the “national security” rationale for the tariffs, the US withdraws from the WTO and becomes a pariah nation. If, alternatively, the WTO allows for the national security justification for tariffs, then every other nation follows suit and the WTO also becomes meaningless. I really don’t see any solution to what has just happened outside of impeachment, and that also feels unlikely now that Richard Trumka has decided to back this absurd policy. Sorry for being so bleak.

  173. 173

    @Roger Moore: Yes, but its good to have one’s suspicions corroborated by independent reporting.

  174. 174
    randy khan says:

    @KithKanan:

    For what it’s worth, disqualification from office is a possible penalty for conviction in an impeachment trial, but the Senate has to decide to impose it. At least one person who’s been impeached – Alcee Hastings, who was impeached and convicted when he was a federal judge – has become a member of Congress.

  175. 175
    KithKanan says:

    @randy khan: Fair. I have difficulty imagining a scenario where Trump is convicted and removed from office but NOT barred from holding further office, but I guess it could happen as a compromise position to get votes for conviction?

  176. 176
    Felanius Kootea says:

    @ruemara: Ooh – I just ordered one.

  177. 177
    Brachiator says:

    @KithKanan:

    I have difficulty imagining a scenario where Trump is convicted and removed from office but NOT barred from holding further office, but I guess it could happen as a compromise position to get votes for conviction?

    The only office that Trump would ever want is the office of the presidency. He ain’t a politician. He has no interest in contributing to the general welfare. He uses the presidency as the best place to work his con. After he’s done here, he will just move back into the private sector.

  178. 178
    SgrAstar says:

    @Roger Moore: My all time favorite Onion piece is
    Bush finds error in Fermilab calculations Cheryl probably remembers that it was posted on doors all around Los Alamos.

  179. 179
    Roger Moore says:

    @SgrAstar:
    My brother, a theoretical physics professor, loved that one. He especially liked the part about Bush being too modest by an order of magnitude.

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