Hammerlock Broken in Florida? (Open Thread)

A gun reform bill is on its way to Florida Governor Rick Scott’s desk. It’s not nearly enough. It contains useless and/or harmful provisions, such as millions for a program to train school personnel to carry handguns on campus. But it also contains provisions to ban bump stocks, impose a three-day waiting period on most long gun purchases and raise the minimum age for purchasing long guns from 18 to 21.

The commonsense provisions were vigorously opposed by NRA über-lobbyist Marion Hammer, who had previously been in charge of setting weapons policy for the state and whose ghastly concepts, such as “Stand Your Ground,” have wreaked death and havoc in Florida communities and metastasized to other states, to the delight and profit of gun manufacturers. Earlier this week, Hammer pressured GOP lawmakers (WaPo):

In the days leading up to the vote, the NRA’s Florida lobbyist, Marion Hammer, issued an “emergency alert” to members asking them to contact Republicans and demand they vote no. “Neither the 3-day waiting period on all rifles and shotguns, raising the age from 18 to 21 to buy any firearm, or the bump stock ban will have any effect on crime,” she wrote.

But for the first time since long before the teenagers at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School were born, enough Republican lawmakers refused to do Hammer’s bidding, and it looks like Scott might actually sign a bill that she opposes. If Hammer’s absolute lock on gun policy in Florida is broken, that’s a huge fucking deal.

If the bill becomes law, we’ll owe this partial victory to those magnificent kids who called bullshit on the political cowardice of the Republicans and the learned helplessness of their opponents. And we’ll also owe the students an obligation to keep fighting for sane and sensible gun laws.

Open thread!

118 replies
  1. 1
    Schlemazel says:

    I needed some hopeful news today. Thanks.
    If the NRA is losing its grip on Fl it is in trouble in the civilized world

  2. 2
    tobie says:

    Kudos to the kids at Marjorie Stoneman Douglas High School and elsewhere. Most of them are not yet 16 and yet they’ve done something truly historic.

  3. 3
    low-tech cyclist says:

    It’s a start, and that’s a hell of a lot better than nothing. Worth celebrating! Hopefully Gov. Skeletor will sign it, if only as a sop to help his chances in his upcoming Senate race.

    And in the meantime, we keep the heat on. I’ll be marching in DC on the 24th.

  4. 4

    I have a proposal get these kids to replace all the beltway MSM anchors on their Sunday shows.

  5. 5
    eric says:

    I think the insurance industry will put a swift end to the packing-teacher effect of the bill.

  6. 6
    germy says:

    Florida Man explained, on Atlanta

  7. 7
    delk says:

    A 79 year old fear peddler forcing policy on teenagers that will have to live with her actions far after she is escorted to hell.

  8. 8
    Brachiator says:

    @low-tech cyclist:

    It’s a start, and that’s a hell of a lot better than nothing. Worth celebrating!

    Yep.

  9. 9
    dmsilev says:

    Good to hear. It might be a small step, but every step forward is helpful.

    Do we have to worry about Republican snakes and serpents sneaking rollbacks of these provisions in the dead of the night six months from now?

  10. 10
    Patricia Kayden says:

    impose a three-day waiting period on most long gun purchases

    So I assume this will give authorities to do a proper background investigation before the sale can be effected. This law is a good first step. Much more needs to be done. Weapons of war should be banned, for one thing.

  11. 11
    debbie says:

    Glenn Beck predictably is spittin’ mad and insisting that AR-15s are sports guns, not assault weapons. He’s happily admitting he’s got two (fully) automatic weapons.

    Someone needs to insert Marion Hammer into an active shooter situation at a high school and just observe how smoothly and effectively she reacts and saves every innocent life in the vicinity.

  12. 12
  13. 13

    Gotta keep fighting though. If the GOP retains control of the state legislature, they’ll gut the waiting period and long gun limits when they think we’re not looking.

  14. 14
    Schlemazel says:

    @dmsilev: Do we have to worry about Republican snakes and serpents sneaking rollbacks of these provisions in the dead of the night six months from now?

    I would assume so. It is the way they deal with this sort of thing

  15. 15
    Schlemazel says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    Probably not. 3 Days is not enough time to do a proper check given the roadblocks the NRA has thrown up to make it difficult.

  16. 16
    oatler. says:

    And we can trust Florida’s men in blue to vigorously enforce the 21-rule because they spend so much tax money on undercover stings to catch clerks selling booze to minors.

  17. 17
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    As noted in an earlier thread the gun manufacturers lobbying arm, aka the NRA, is now a terrorist organization. Wells Fargo is the go to bank for gun manufacturers and the NRA. If you bank with Wells Fargo you bank with the banking arm of the industry.

  18. 18
    Immanentize says:

    @debbie:

    He’s happily admitting he’s got two (fully) automatic weapons.

    This is, of course, against federal law (without a special collector permit which, it seems, rich fucknuts can get whenever they want to)

  19. 19
    Waldo says:

    Good. I hope this is the first step on the slippery slope the gun-humpers have been warning us about.

  20. 20
    Immanentize says:

    @Schlemazel: But I think the stats we have suggest a three day waiting period helps prevent suicides and crimes “of passion” like intimate partner shootings by making the buyer cool down/sober up before they get their hands on a weapon.

    Just wondering — what is the average statutory “cooling off period” before a woman can get an abortion in this country?

  21. 21
    rikyrah says:

    Trump wanted WH counsel McGahn to deny Mueller firing story: NYT

    Ari Melber talks with Michael Schmidt, reporter for The New York Times, about new reporting that Donald Trump talked to Reince Priebus and Don McGahn about their testimony to Robert Mueller and pressed McGahn to deny a story about Trump’s desire to fire Robert Mueller.

  22. 22
    rikyrah says:

    McGahn is White House lawyer, not Trump lawyer, Trump should know

    Joyce Vance, former U.S. attorney, talks with Ari Melber about the kind of legal jeopardy Donald Trump could be in based on new reporting from The New York Times, and the role of the White House legal counsel.

  23. 23
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @tobie: The MSD students are just great! They are outspoken, articulate and wonderful ambassadors for those of us who want less gun violence in this country. The NRA and its bullies have met their match. Finally.

  24. 24
    Yarrow says:

    @schrodingers_cat: That would be awesome! Have any of the kids even been invited on any of the Sunday shows? Or are the Villagers too scared of them?

  25. 25
    rikyrah says:

    Pursuit of Kremlin link by Trump backer eyed by Mueller: WaPo

    Sari Horwitz, national reporter for The Washington Post, talks with Ari Melber about Trump backer Eric Prince trying to set up a back channel of communication with the Kremlin at a secret Seychelles meeting with a Russian official close to Vladimir Putin, officials from the UAE, and UAE adviser George Nader, who is reportedly cooperating with Robert Mueller.

  26. 26
    rikyrah says:

    GOP aims to shut down incomplete House Trump Russia investigation

    Rep. Eric Swalwell talks with Ari Melber about the Republican effort to end the House Intelligence Committee’s Trump Russia investigation without trying in good faith to fulfill its mission.

  27. 27
    marcopolo says:

    Article from Politico so you may not want to go there but I posted probably too much of it vis a vis fair use so enjoy. Anyways, the bottom line is summed up in the headline:

    Republicans trash their candidate in Pa. special election

    Shortly after the new year, Rep. Steve Stivers, the House GOP campaign chief, delivered a stern message to Rick Saccone, the party’s special election candidate in Pennsylvania.

    You need to start pulling your weight, Stivers implored Saccone, the mustachioed 60-year-old state legislator who is carrying the weight of the Republican Party in a crucial contest next week.

    Stivers’ warning, described by two people familiar with the discussion, was intended to put the candidate on notice. The national GOP would be helping him out substantially, Stivers said. But if Saccone didn’t start upping his fundraising game and getting his sluggish campaign in order, he could lose a race that should be a gimme for the party.

    Saccone said he understood. But in the weeks to come, the National Republican Congressional Committee quietly dispatched a staffer to the district to walk Saccone, who lacked any donor infrastructure, through the basics of how to fundraise. Stivers had several more conversations with the candidate to try to prod him along.

    Tuesday’s special election, which is being held in a district President Donald Trump won by 20 percentage points, has emerged as the latest testing ground of whether Republicans are headed for a midterm bloodbath. A loss would be wholly embarrassing, many Republicans privately acknowledge, given that it would take place in a state that Trump made a cornerstone of his 2016 victory. And the themes that the GOP has highlighted in the special election — namely tax cuts and opposition to House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi — are the centerpieces of the party’s 2018 campaign plan.

    But as election day grows closer, the national GOP is increasingly pinning the blame on Saccone. In interviews with nearly two dozen administration officials, senior House Republicans and top party strategists, Saccone was nearly universally panned as a deeply underwhelming candidate who leaned excessively on the national party to execute a massive, multimillion-dollar rescue effort. It was complete with visits from the president, vice president and several Cabinet members.

    Finally, realize this is yesterday evening news so has probably already been read and digested by some here–apologies if it was discussed extensively.

  28. 28
    Roger Moore says:

    @PaulWartenberg:

    If the GOP retains control of the state legislature, they’ll gut the waiting period and long gun limits when they think we’re not looking.

    Preventing backsliding is going to be a huge part of the overall effort. But just getting the Republicans to take some forward steps is a huge deal. The NRA is so powerful compared to other lobbies precisely because their power is so rarely tested. The Republicans are all terrified of defying the NRA because they believe it will ruin their careers. If they ever discover the threats are empty and there’s no particular danger to defying the NRA, they’ll be no more powerful than any equally well funded lobby.

  29. 29
    Aleta says:

    @debbie: Good idea! We could measure that for lots of these squawkers, if we challenged each go through a simulation put on by a credentialed org. If any agreed, publish the results. Most wouldn’t. Publish that fact too, and hammer back with it.

  30. 30
    gene108 says:

    @dmsilev:

    Do we have to worry about Republican snakes and serpents sneaking rollbacks of these provisions in the dead of the night six months from now?

    Doesn’t matter what it is, we always have to worry about that.

    I think something has changed, with regards to gun control, for the first time since the early 1990’s.

    I hope we can keep the momentum going.

  31. 31
    kindness says:

    Sweet. Let’s not kid ourselves though. Even clueless/evil Republicans see an election coming up soon. I can’t help but think that if there were 18 months till elections, nothing would have passed.

  32. 32
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    Interestingly, I just read an article about Marion Hammer in the New Yorker and it was depressing as hell to read about how much power she has had to set your state’s gun agenda.

    So it is awesome to see her lose a battle.

  33. 33
    gene108 says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    The MSD students are just great! They are outspoken, articulate

    Not enough credit to the teachers (and parents) for getting them to be so outspoken and articulate.

    Yay teachers!👩‍🏫👨‍🏫

  34. 34
    marcopolo says:

    @The Ancient Randonneur: If you bank with Wells Fargo and you have a conscience you need to have your head examined. They are just the worst and they have a lovely track record of screwing over customers and employees. The NRA connection doesn’t necessarily surprise me but that is the least of the problems that company has.

  35. 35
    Aleta says:

    Propublica is amazing. They’ve put up a new searchable data base of 2,475 political appointees.

    Tr– Town is the result of a year spent filing hundreds of Freedom of Information Act requests; collecting and organizing staffing lists; and compiling, sifting through and publishing thousands of financial disclosure reports.

    Roughly 60 percent of the Trump administration officials included in our analysis have financial disclosure reports. We have requested these reports for the rest. Since our last update of financial disclosure records in August, we have added 660 such reports from across the government.

    Their findings are not happy data. But will speed up scrutiny
    and counteractions I hope. And journalism. Sending them some $ today.

  36. 36
    bystander says:

    Ari Melber’s program is our 6 pm must-watch. More substance and depth, less narrative, CW b/s.

    There’s still the chance Scott won’t sign, isn’t there? I could see him saying the bill is too costly blah blah blah. I wish he’d go back to modeling for poison bottle labels.

  37. 37
    SFAW says:

    @low-tech cyclist:

    It’s a start, and that’s a hell of a lot better than nothing. Worth celebrating!

    The Dems should have held out for single-payer!!!!!!

  38. 38
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @rikyrah: “Trump should know”

    Yeah, that’s a bottomless pit

  39. 39
    tobie says:

    @marcopolo: Republicans really are the opposite of Dems. Whenever things go south, we blame the party. Republicans by contrast blame the candidate, even if the candidate has completely adopted the party’ positions and rhetoric. Interesting dynamic. They can’t help but reinforce existing power structures at every turn.

  40. 40
  41. 41
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @rikyrah:
    This dweeb is in way over his head

  42. 42
    SFAW says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    Are you in SFO permanently? Or just visiting? I saw some discussion, in the past days/weeks, but I’ve been too busy (a/k/a “self-absorbed”) to keep track.

  43. 43
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @Roger Moore:

    Preventing backsliding is going to be a huge part of the overall effort

    Just like with voting rights, abortion rights, banking regulations, etc. Pretty much everything. These fuckers pay a long game.

  44. 44
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Aleta:
    GOP announcing they’ll repeal the Freedom of Information Act in 3..2..1..

  45. 45
    SFAW says:

    @Yarrow:

    Or are the Villagers too scared of them?

    Have you ever considered expanding your signature “Tick tock, motherfuckers” to include the Villagers? I expect Villago would be happy to see that.

  46. 46
    Tony Jay says:

    That’s Florida’s Governor?

    Did he win by floating up to Floridians’ bedroom windows in the dead of night and scratching on the glass until they agreed to vote for him?

    Now I see why Stephen King is a Democrat.

  47. 47
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @SFAW: just visiting, though I would move here if I could buy a house 20 years ago!

    I am bargaining two contracts, soon to be three, with SF-based unions, so I have been out here more than I have been in Atlanta this year. Interspersed with bargaining and arbitrations in other places, hence the jokes (I hope) about my wife hooking up with the pool boy and/or cabana boy.

  48. 48
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: That was a terrific article. Hammer sets gun policy in FL, but a defeat for her is a victory nationwide since other GOP-controlled states model their lax gun laws on ours.

    @bystander: “modeling for poison ☠️ bottle labels” — so stealing that! 🤣

  49. 49
    geg6 says:

    Good! So glad to see that evil old witch lose one.

    It’s a start and we just have to keep up the momentum. Those kids and their parents and teachers are national heroes just for getting something, anything done.

  50. 50
    geg6 says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Did he win by floating up to Floridians’ bedroom windows in the dead of night and scratching on the glass until they agreed to vote for him?

    And where may I send your internets, sir?

  51. 51
    Quinerly says:

    Trump upset over SHS’s response re Stormy Daniels yesterday: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/08/politics/trump-sarah-sanders-stormy-daniels/

  52. 52
    trollhattan says:

    @Immanentize:
    Does Glenn Beck want to be the next Stephen Paddock? We should put him into psychiatric care until we’re sure.

  53. 53
    Jeffro says:

    Newsweek reporting Trumpov personally made millions from money laundering in Panama

  54. 54

    @Tony Jay: He does look spooky and creepy like Lex Luther on a diet, whereas McMaster looks like Lex Luther who spends hours in the gym.

  55. 55
    raven says:

    @Quinerly: How about a gofund me for the girl!

  56. 56
    debbie says:

    @Aleta:

    Reminds me of when the bright bulbs all decided to undergo waterboarding.

  57. 57
    Roger Moore says:

    @Tony Jay:

    Did he win by floating up to Floridians’ bedroom windows in the dead of night and scratching on the glass until they agreed to vote for him?

    I think it was the Imperius Curse.

  58. 58
    laura says:

    @Steve in the SFO: are any of the unions engineers by chance?

  59. 59
    Aleta says:

    @Steve in the SFO: I have a friend who tells me about union work disputes at his plant. I’m pro-union, and some of the union member actions seem harmful to the workers’ changing situation. But I suppose that’s based on my assumptions about the future. The direction it’s going is not pro-worker, so just a bad situation. Thanks for your work.

  60. 60
    AnderJ says:

    @Jeffro: That scandal is so November 2017…

  61. 61
    Immanentize says:

    @trollhattan: Hasn’t Glenn Beck already publically announced he has been under psychiatric care? Why does he have any guns?

  62. 62
    chris says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    …other GOP-controlled states model their lax gun laws on ours.

    I’ll be pleased to see Hammer lose one if/when it happens. In the meantime take pleasure in the fact that Florida has no open carry law. Some brighter than normal bulb must have realised that the tourists wouldn’t be happy if Florida man was visibly armed. The old dragon lost that one too and I hope it keeps her awake at night.

  63. 63
    Immanentize says:

    @Aleta: You do know Steve is a management side attorney, right?

  64. 64
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    If you haven’t gotten around to reading the excerpt of Corn and Isikoff’s upcoming book on trump and Russia, it details trump’s toadying to Papa Vlad around the Miss Universe pageant in 2013, it’s worth the time . As they put it, the Moscow building was supposed to establish trump as an international oligarch. It’s an interesting read, comical until you remember they’re talking about the president of these United States. Just part of the story involves trump and Russians going to a Vegas night club, owned by Adelson because of course it was, that sounds like it was inspired by the place Johnny Ola took Fredo to in Havana, including, um… showers. And there’s a picture of trump there.

    Can I post two links these days?

  65. 65
    Aleta says:

    @Immanentize: I wasn’t sure about which side pays him. Thanks for that.

  66. 66
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I thought the wait was to stop impulse buys since a lot of gun homicides are result of family disputes. The fact that the NRA is for impulse buys shows they are lying about responsible gun ownership.

  67. 67
    smintheus says:

    Jonah Goldberg has a USA Today op-ed today saying we have to ignore those mouthy Parkland kids because they’re kids so what could they know. So very insightful.

    Meanwhile, Axios published this chart showing that states with background checks for private gun sales have lower gun deaths. And Republican states have the highest rates of gun deaths.

  68. 68
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @laura: no engineers. I’ll bet they would be a pain to bargain with!

    @Aleta: I represent management, just so we’re clear! But I am pro-union also. The imbalance in power between management and labor is far too great. I want to see union get with the times, however. Most of them act like it’s still 1960 when in reality the laws have changed, the economy has changed, the labor force has changed,and so on, but union have not adapted well. They need to add a lot more value than they are these days. I don’t see many unions getting wages or benefits for their members in excess of what the company was prepared to pay already. Unions aren’t going to survive just because they file grievances.

  69. 69
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @smintheus: Jonah Goldberg has a USA Today op-ed today saying we have to ignore those mouthy Parkland kids because they’re kids so what could they know. So very insightful.

    If they’re so smart how come their moms never got them national media jobs by rifling through some girl’s underwear drawer?

  70. 70
    debbie says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    The head of the steelworkers union has gotten lots of air time lately, thanks to tariff issues, and he definitely talks like he’s from the 1960s. Unfortunately, he’s got a guy with a similar (lack of) mindset sitting in the Oval Office.

  71. 71
    Aleta says:

    @debbie: Yeah, can’t you see Hitchens donning his holsters (as he writes his story about himself in his head), then failing 2, at most 3, seconds after start.

  72. 72
    Doug R says:

    @Immanentize:

    Just wondering — what is the average statutory “cooling off period” before a woman can get an abortion in this country?

    I believe it’s 72 hours-3 days.

  73. 73
    Immanentize says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    Unions aren’t going to survive just because they file grievances.

    And sadly, outside of the police and firefighter unions, they don’t seem to be doing such a great job there either. I think the destruction of the pension systems country-side was the biggest blow to Union power because that was a tangible they could fight for — money later. But once the courts allowed those to be taken away in so many circumstances, tangible benefits (pay or benefits) have been difficult due to the economic swings.

    I am super pro-union, but I just don’t know where they go now. The SEIU has made some good moves, but other unions seem stuck.

  74. 74
    Shana says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷: Which Dweeb? McGann or Trump? Or both?

  75. 75
    Immanentize says:

    @Doug R: Thanks. Something there I think — look at the arguments of those who fight for abortion waiting periods but against gun waiting periods….

  76. 76
    Doug R says:

    @SFAW:

    Are you in SFO permanently? Or just visiting? I saw some discussion, in the past days/weeks, but I’ve been too busy (a/k/a “self-absorbed”) to keep track.

    Is Steve going to change his nym as he drives around the Bay Area? OAK, SJC?

  77. 77
    debbie says:

    @Immanentize:

    I am super pro-union, but I just don’t know where they go now.

    I hate to see my fingers typing this, but they should focus like lasers on workers’ issues in ways that won’t allow detractors to claim the unions are playing politics. Focus on management instead of politicians. If nothing else, Steve will be kept busy.

  78. 78
    SFAW says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    no engineers. I’ll bet they would be a pain to bargain with!

    Depends on the type of engineer. You can pretty much put anything over on a software “engineer” (f/k/a “keypuncher.”)

    [In case it wasn’t obvious, I’m a hardware guy.]

  79. 79
    SFAW says:

    @Shana:

    Which Dweeb? McGann or Trump? Or both?

    All of them, Katie?

  80. 80
    SFAW says:

    @smintheus:

    Meanwhile, Axios published this chart showing that states with background checks for private gun sales have lower gun deaths. And Republican states have the highest rates of gun deaths.

    As I have often said, they should all be relocated to Texas, rename it Dumbfuckistan, then build a wall keeping them away from the rest of the world/USA. Let them keep all their guns — hell, air-drop a couple hundred thousand “AR-15s” with tons of “clips.” Wait for the first heat wave.

    Problem solved.

  81. 81
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Amerikan Baka) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Shana:
    Trump, mostly, but McGahn could qualify too

  82. 82
    SFAW says:

    @Doug R:

    Is Steve going to change his nym as he drives around the Bay Area? OAK, SJC?

    As long as it’s not SteveInGlendaleCA. He does that, we’ll end up seeing tons of pictures of union employees that he helped lay off.

    I like Bill’s pictures a lot more.

  83. 83
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @SFAW: I’ve been in Glendale some! But I’m negotiating contracts. I have little people to execute any layoffs. And I hate layoffs. Do whatever I can to avoid them.

  84. 84
    Schlemazel says:

    @Immanentize:
    That is an excellent question. Maybe in addition to a waiting period every gun purchaser should get ‘wanded’ to see if a proctologist can find their brain & is they do = DENIED!

  85. 85
    low-tech cyclist says:

    @SFAW:

    The Dems should have held out for single-payer!!!!!!

    And a pony!

  86. 86
    TenguPhule says:

    @dmsilev:

    Do we have to worry about Republican snakes and serpents sneaking rollbacks of these provisions in the dead of the night six months from now?

    Six months? Try one.

  87. 87
    TenguPhule says:

    @debbie:

    Someone needs to insert Marion Hammer into an active shooter situation at a high school and just observe how smoothly and effectively she reacts and saves every innocent life in the vicinity.

    Wouldn’t Hammer be the active shooter in that scenario?

  88. 88
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @Doug R: I started to do that, but every band change puts me in moderation. I don’t want to be a burden to the front pagers.

    Steve in Pleasanton, CA where is mad at John Madden for taking over the boardroom in the hotel owns thereby forcing us into a smaller conference room where we are physically closer to the union thugs in the other side of the table

  89. 89
    TenguPhule says:

    @Immanentize:

    what is the average statutory “cooling off period” before a woman can get an abortion in this country?

    4-30 days, depending on how backed up the limited abortion facilities in her region are.

  90. 90
    TenguPhule says:

    @Roger Moore:

    If they ever discover the threats are empty and there’s no particular danger to defying the NRA

    Unfortunately, the people with lots of guns can never make truly empty threats.

  91. 91
    TenguPhule says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    Just like with voting rights, abortion rights, banking regulations, etc.

    Perhaps not the most optimistic examples to give considering how bad the situation has become for all of those.

  92. 92
    Aleta says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    (not) many unions (are) getting wages or benefits for their members in excess of what the company was prepared to pay already

    That’s my (small-scale) impression. It’s a very bad situation for the workers, and hard for people (you too I presume) who care. What’s taught at business schools and rewarded in management (w/punishment for lower managers who don’t conform) is destroying the old structure while seemingly able to bypass areas that union management puts money and energy into.
    (Uneducated view, formed by conversations abt incidents w/ (teachers, maintenance, work floor) workers about their union actions.)

  93. 93
    TenguPhule says:

    @Immanentize:

    Why does he have any guns?

    Its not a crime to be insane and own a firearm at the federal level any more.

  94. 94
    TenguPhule says:

    @Doug R:

    I believe it’s 72 hours-3 days.

    Which translates into a lot longer in real life.

  95. 95
    Aleta says:

    And @Schlemazel: And take a drivers ed type two-part test while they wait in the waiting room.

  96. 96
    Doug R says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    Steve in Pleasanton, CA where is mad at John Madden for taking over the boardroom in the hotel owns thereby forcing us into a smaller conference room where we are physically closer to the union thugs in the other side of the table

    Bring a couple of cases of beer, a case of whiskey and lock the door.

  97. 97
    TenguPhule says:

    @Steve in the SFO:

    I have little people to execute any layoffs.

    I didn’t realize your termination policy was that draconian.

  98. 98
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @Aleta: the creation of the MBA degree and the business methods appurtenant thereto have been a disaster for the US (and world) economy

  99. 99
    laura says:

    @Steve in the SFO: the BOMA contract is a thing of beauty.

  100. 100
    TenguPhule says:

    The national school safety bill looks to be a complete floater. Every bad idea the Republicans could think of rolled into it and not one thing about actually controlling guns.

  101. 101
    Elizabelle says:

    @Aleta: Good comment. Agree with you and Steve in the wherever he is this week.

    MBAs have run amok. I find it interesting that Costco does not hire for MBAs.

  102. 102
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Steve in the SFO: It’s not a log game, they are merely to stupid to learn anything.

  103. 103
    Aleta says:

    @Immanentize:

    I think the destruction of the pension systems country-side was the biggest blow to Union power because that was a tangible they could fight for — … (but) the courts allowed those to be taken away in so many circumstances

    And does that also go back to the deregulation of financial system?

    I think also that decision power has been taken from on-site managers who knew their local environment and the workers.
    (Good low-level managers protected their workers, because they were invested in keeping good workers.)

    Also local managers have lost control over decisions abut hiring — schedules and number of hires and ‘let go’; — Those decisions have been imposed on them by the system of using temporary, part time labor or contract workers. They are turning into people who fill out reports of numbers (reports assigned to them by uninvolved decision makers who mostly keep their distance but give the orders).

    That report part is even happening to college profs. Outside private companies are then hired to ‘analyze’ the reports and tell departments what they need to change. To improve their scores, colleges can pay money to send educators to ‘seminars’ run by the company. It’a a racket for some of these companies.

  104. 104
    WereBear says:

    @Steve in the SFO: Completely agree. For one thing, they act like managing anything is the same as anything else.

    Riiiiiiiiight.

  105. 105
    Aleta says:

    @Steve in the SFO: And the quality of health care and education.

    Their department heads used to be former teachers, nurses, who’d worked up through the organization and knew its parts and how they interacted. Now dept heads come for the short term. To reorganize or re-budget something that can go on a resume, in order to move on to another place.

  106. 106
    negative 1 says:

    @Aleta: I work for a union. If that’s true it makes you wonder why all the back and forth about wages in our negotiations. If we were just taking what was offered, why does it seem to take us so long and why do their opening proposals look so different from ours?

    Plus, Steve — if that’s the case it really makes me wonder why they need to hire an attorney.

    Saying we need to ‘get with the times’ is rich. Our members go in with a list of demands. If it’s too high we’re greedy leeches, if it’s not ‘we’re not providing value’. You gotta love this country. Apparently Janus’s little tiff is a waste of time then. Why such a wage disparity in the states we don’t have much of a presence in?

  107. 107
    Honus says:

    @debbie: AR15 is a great hunting rifle. If you want to killl six or seven deer and leave them lying in the woods.

    Is the three day period just for rifles? Can you just take a handgun right home the same day? If so, that’s really kind of backwards.

  108. 108
    Steve in the SFO says:

    @negative 1:

    If that’s true it makes you wonder why all the back and forth about wages in our negotiations. If we were just taking what was offered, why does it seem to take us so long and why do their opening proposals look so different from ours?

    Because the company initially offers less than it’s willing to pay so there’s something to bargain over.

    Maybe you work for a progressive union that is doing great things. If so, I hope you can push other unions to do the same.

  109. 109
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Honus: There’s already a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases.

  110. 110
    negative 1 says:

    Because the company initially offers less than it’s willing to pay so there’s something to bargain over.

    Wouldn’t one then deduce that the opening offer would be the one the workers would be forced to accept if they didn’t have a union? Or are the employers offering less just to have something to do or to make unions look like they’re doing something (because they love us so much).

    Again, what’s with the income disparity between right-to-work states and fair-share states if we don’t do anything?

  111. 111
    TenguPhule says:

    @Steve in the SFO: Management always tries to start by cutting our benefits.

    Our union negotiators always gives them a finger in response.

  112. 112
    TenguPhule says:

    @negative 1:

    Again, what’s with the income disparity between right-to-work states and fair-share states if we don’t do anything?

    Fair share states tend to have better negotiators. They tend to cost money.

    Free Rider State unions have financial problems due to not enough people paying their fucking dues

  113. 113
    The Moar You Know says:

    There’s already a three-day waiting period for handgun purchases.

    @Betty Cracker: Five, and that’s federal law, not state. A Republican had to get his head blown off and St. Reagan actually had to eat some real-life lead to get that passed. Still took over a decade.

  114. 114
    Betty Cracker says:

    @The Moar You Know: That may have been the case at one time, but I don’t think there is a federal waiting period anymore, and in Florida, the waiting period is definitely 72 hours and that’s for handguns only. The legislation currently under consideration would expand that to long guns.

    ETA: http://lawcenter.giffords.org/.....g-periods/

  115. 115
    Ruckus says:

    @Immanentize:
    It used to be not all that difficult to get a Fed arms license. Had an acquaintance in OH who had one. He’d go to machine gun shoots 2-3 times a year.
    I think you had to be over 21 and not have a criminal record and pay a fee.

  116. 116
    Aleta says:

    @negative 1:

    Wouldn’t one then deduce that the opening offer would be the one the workers would be forced to accept if they didn’t have a union?

    Yes. Unions still matter a lot. How can they be more more effective though? Since workers are losing ground.

    Or are the employers offering less just to have something to do or to make unions look like they’re doing something (because they love us so much).

    Imo, and shallow observation, the companies that offer less than they’re willing to pay, do that so they can say they are negotiating in good faith. If they then raise their initial offer, they can call it a concession, and ask unions to concede something in return. Like pay more for their health insurance. Which essentially is a cut in wages.

    eta Answered already by others…

  117. 117
    john fremont says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Ironic that the gundementalists are complaining that these kids are actors and drama students so they know how to play on an audience. NRA President was Charlton Heston, an actor, another NRA spokesman, Ted Nugent, the Motor City Madman, now Mr Ted, White and Blue, knows how to work his audiences. And of course , the Donald , Pro Wrestling heel and Reality TV Game show host as if he doesn’t know how to work his audience!

  118. 118
    Jager says:

    @SFAW: Hot night and “Two for Ones” at the Round Up Bar will do the trick.

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