Gates Cooperating?

The Times is reporting that Rick Gates has flipped. They’re the only news outlet reporting it at the moment, and we all heard that he was “queen for a day” last week and nothing happened, but I’m posting this anyway because fun if true.

Update: The Post says it’s happening, too.






260 replies
  1. 1
    Cermet says:

    When Mueller announces this, I will believe it.

  2. 2
    Jumbo76 says:

    The superseding indictment was pretty boring. I am starting to think that there just isn’t anything here. We’ll see, of course.

  3. 3

    Piling on oodles of much worse charges has a way of changing minds.

  4. 4
    BellyCat says:

    Suspect that Gates is too late. Maybe the only thing he can add at this point are passwords to the myriad accounts?

  5. 5
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    and we all heard that he was “queen for a day” last week and nothing happened,

    that we know of, no?

    but I’m posting this anyway because fun if true.

    Yup, I get that

    @Jumbo76: As I’ve said, we’re never gonna get photos and tapes of trump and Vlad meeting in a small cafe behind the Hauptbahnhof in Zurich, where Vlad shows trump the lighter Marla gave him, but the Beast obstructed justice, and he’s hiding his tax returns and declaring his and his family’s business off limits for a reason

  6. 6
    beef says:

    @BellyCat:

    No, Gates can provide testimony about the Trump campaign confirming what Mueller already knows from counterintelligence investigations. The fewer sources and methods Mueller has to burn the better.

  7. 7
    rikyrah says:

    That indictment from yesterday slapped his azz ALLLLL the way back into reality.

  8. 8
    piratedan says:

    @Jumbo76: boring is what puts your ass in jail… boring money laundering, boring documentation indicating that you’re coordinating a political campaign with an foreign entity, boring subversion of campaign finance laws…

    I could give a shit if its boring, what bothers me is that its all illegal as fuck.

  9. 9
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jumbo76: You must have read the fake superseding indictment, then. Try reading the real one!

  10. 10
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    OT:

    John Harwood @ JohnJHarwood
    Trump admiring his image on large screens at CPAC: “I’d love to watch that guy speak”
    More
    as Trump mocks his thumbs-down “no” vote on health care, CPAC members boo John McCain

  11. 11
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    I’m old enough to remember when Judith Miller worked at the NYT. If true it will be fun to watch the inevitable tweetstorm from you know who.

  12. 12
    rikyrah says:

    Gates was there…with Manafort…at the campaign…during the transition…in the White House…..
    he’s got a lot of singing to do.

  13. 13
    MomSense says:

    Gates flipping is going to put further pressure on Manafort. That Manafort can’t use his properties and other assets as collateral for his bail bonds is also going to force him to make some serious decisions. If Manafort flips I think this whole trump crime family house of cards comes tumbling down.

    In other Russia news, It seems to me that the NRA is acting scared and not just because the Parkland heroes are out messaging and out organizing them. Trump took 30 million from the NRA and if the chatter about Russian money going to the NRA is true – well then we are going to see some really interesting times ahead.

  14. 14
    WaterGirl says:

    @BellyCat: Gates might be too late if Manafort flips; otherwise I think Mueller would very much like to hear Gates sing.

  15. 15
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Yes, but none of this is about Trump. If his tax returns or business practices were fraudulent in some way, or if they were criminal, I think we would hear something about it. What’s going on, though, is that Manafort and Gates laundered a bunch of money for their own benefit. It’s fair to think that there really wasn’t any coordination based on the indictments filed so far. Like I said, we’ll see.

  16. 16

    We are being hit early in the day with trolls and their sock puppets. Orders from Putin?

  17. 17
    Chyron HR says:

    @Jumbo76:

    If I keep sobbing and shitting myself and screaming “nothingburger” then the God-Emperor will be safe, r-r-right?

    Sure, kid. Fox News would never lie to you.

  18. 18
    Jumbo76 says:

    @WaterGirl:

    I did. Manafort and Gates got money from Ukraine’s Party of Regions through 2014, when Yanakovich was forced out. They used that money to buy real estate. Once that money dried up, they defrauded banks by providing false information on mortgage applications. Yawn.

  19. 19
    Nicole says:

    @Jumbo76: Well, Capone got 11 years for tax evasion. I’d take that for Trump. At his age, that’s a life sentence.

  20. 20
    germy says:

    Who is paying for Gates legal representation? Are they the same people paying drumpf’s bodyguard his monthly stipend/hush money?

  21. 21
    Barbara says:

    @Jumbo76: Prosecutors are not writing novels for the amusement of people like you and me and they certainly are not going to tip their hand by signaling their strategy to the next guy about to be indicted.

  22. 22
    germy says:

    @Nicole: And then we’d see our first genuine smile from Melania.

  23. 23
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jumbo76:

    I am starting to think that there just isn’t anything here.

    FFS.

  24. 24
    WaterGirl says:

    @MomSense: Also, too, I’m thinking that attorneys for Gates were not too happy to learn that most of his collateral is dubious at best.

    We are already living in interesting times. I, for one, would like to see some of the fun parts of that instead of just the crappy parts. I want Gates and Manafort to flip so bad. It’s all I want for Christmas.

  25. 25
    rikyrah says:

    Mueller adds new piece to plot with new Manafort Gates indictment

    Rachel Maddow reports on the details of a new 32-count indictment in Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s cast against Donald Trump campaign aides Paul Manafort and Rick Gates.

  26. 26
    sdhays says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Judging by how much Putin seems rattled by this, Gates flipping seems to be true…

  27. 27
    Chyron HR says:

    @Jumbo76:

    I’m sorry, but the idictments will continue regardless of how many memes you tweet of “Pepe” shooting “soyboy crisis actors” with an AK-47.

  28. 28
    germy says:

    She’ll get to the bottom of this:

    Tonight we dug deeper into #Russiagate: what’s true, what’s not, unverified claims from unreliable sources, and how to fix the real threats to our elections – including foreign interference – without embracing censorship or warmongering. Watch: https://t.co/nfeVednYue pic.twitter.com/uiwYti3mTy

    — Dr. Jill Stein🌻 (@DrJillStein) February 22, 2018

  29. 29
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Nicole: also, syphilis

    (why not?)

    Also, evergreen…

    John Harwood @ JohnJHarwood
    in this heedless pursuit of applause, Trump does not seem well

  30. 30
    sdhays says:

    @WaterGirl: Personally, I’d like it for Labor Day, at the latest. :-)

  31. 31
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jumbo76: With thinking like that, you would make a terrible special prosecutor. Methodical is the name of the game for a prosector, which you apparently can’t see.

    This is not the time for Ready, Fire, Aim.

  32. 32
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Chyron HR:

    Meh. I want Trump gone as much as anyone. I’m just saying, we’re not seeing a lot of production here. It’s the Manafort and Gates show and has been for months. The Russian troll indictment was good. But then we came back to Manafort and Gates. I don’t know what Mueller knows. But so far, we’re not getting information about a connection between the trump campaign or trump himself and Russia. Manafort and Gates, yes, and they were part of the campaign, but, again, the superseding indictment indicates that their money from the Party of Regions dried up in 2014. There is nothing in there indicating they were working for Russia. I don’t see how it’s useful to get your expectations up.

  33. 33
    Calouste says:

    A scenario that fits the reported facts is that Gates was Queen for a day, but wasn’t 100% honest in what he was saying. At which point Mueller decided to bring down the hammer with the additional indictments. If Gates flips now, that means he knows there is still more stuff he could get charged for. Keep in mind that Gates is not that old, 45 IIRC. Even if he gets 10 or 15 years he would still have some life left. Manafort is 70, 10 years is close to a death sentence.

  34. 34
    WaterGirl says:

    @Jumbo76: Okay, so you did your homework. That’s good. But either you are being deliberately dense or you are just having fun playing dumb. Or you are a troll. I have been trying not to think that it’s door #3, but you’re not helping.

  35. 35
    rikyrah says:

    Two Trials for Manafort and Gate
    Maddow’s talk with Chuck Rosenberg about the new indictment.

  36. 36
    WaterGirl says:

    @germy: I was thinking the same thing last night. If either of those guys is able to pay their attorneys then that money has to be coming under the table from somewhere – Russia, a Putin puppet, the NRA, somewhere. If they are paying, it’s dirty money.

  37. 37
    Jumbo76 says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Yes, I am a lawyer, and I’m not that good at it largely because I’m not methodical in certain ways. I did Meyers-Briggs at one point and they told me I’m an INTJ, meaning that I tend to intuit things out rather than work through them methodically a lot of the time. Still end up being right a fair amount of the time.

  38. 38
    Bruce K says:

    I’m hoping for some good news; I’ll take this.

    Related: is there some saying akin to “there’s a whole lotta beef in that nothingburger”?

  39. 39
    WaterGirl says:

    @sdhays: What makes you say that? I haven’t seen anything like that, but I hope you’re right.

  40. 40
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @WaterGirl:

    I want Gates and Manafort to flip so bad

    I don’t. I want Paulie to give a loud and hearty “fuck you” to Mueller, and to tough it out all the way to the end. It will make his inevitable imprisonment that much longer.

  41. 41
    Percysowner says:

    @Jumbo76:

    The superseding indictment was pretty boring. I am starting to think that there just isn’t anything here. We’ll see, of course.

    I don’t know, I think once money comes into the picture people will get real antsy. Republicans LOVE money and wealth. Losing money is more important than the corruption part of what Gates and Manafort did.

  42. 42
    rikyrah says:

    Gates struggles with legal footing in face of Mueller onslaught

    Julia Ainsley, national security reporter for NBC News, talks with Rachel Maddow about the confused and confusing story of Donald Trump campaign aide Rick Gates’ legal defense team.

  43. 43
    The Moar You Know says:

    If I keep sobbing and shitting myself and screaming “nothingburger” then the God-Emperor will be safe, r-r-right?

    @Chyron HR: The Trumpers in my office have not been able to finish a sentence in the last two weeks without the term “fake news”. They’re terrified.

    Good.

  44. 44
    WaterGirl says:

    @rikyrah: I tried opening that last time you or someone else posted that link. Doesn’t work for me in Safari or Chrome. Since I can’t get video, is there a cliff notes version?

  45. 45
    bystander says:

    My dream timeline is Dems sweep the House and shortly thereafter Mueller hands down the indictments of, at a minimum, Uday and Kush.

  46. 46
    Barbara says:

    @Gin & Tonic: My view all along has been that Manafort is so dirty and has done so much wrong that is still well under any statute of limitations that there is no point in flipping because even if he did he would still be facing a sentence that constitutes the majority of his remaining life expectancy. The only way he would flip is if he was really and truly facing complete forfeiture of his assets. Then he might take pity on his cosseted family members, who seem to benefit howbeit ever so reluctantly from the gravy train he has been on courtesy of Yanukovich and Putin.

  47. 47

    @WaterGirl: I suspect jumbo may be a troll.

    ETA ooh, careful, he’s a lawyer who’s done a Myers-Briggs

  48. 48
    germy says:

    George Papadopoulos

    Michael Flynn

    13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies

    Richard Pinedo

    Alex van der Zwaan

    In addition to Manafort and Gates.

    And it’s still rather early in the investigation.

  49. 49
    bystander says:

    @Jumbo76:

    Still end up being right a fair amount of the time.

    At least on the Internet, that is.

  50. 50
    WaterGirl says:

    @Gin & Tonic: I’m good with that, but only if there is another way to get Trump. Because I want that fat bastard to pay most of all. He is trashing our democracy.

  51. 51
    Kirk says:

    @Jumbo76:

    . If his tax returns or business practices were fraudulent in some way, or if they were criminal, I think we would hear something about it.

    We have, anecdotally, over a few decades. There have been successful civil lawsuits in connection. There was a prosecution/investigation that ended after what looks suspiciously like bribes. What is missing is criminal indictment and conviction, but we’ve heard.

    What’s going on, though, is that Manafort and Gates laundered a bunch of money for their own benefit. It’s fair to think that there really wasn’t any coordination based on the indictments filed so far.

    if I may correct, only the first half of that is certain. The back half, “for their own benefit,” is untrue. They laundered the money for someone, and who the someone is has not been fully exposed.

  52. 52
    oldgold says:

    If you think hard and squint, Bobby Three Sticks’ seemingly unrelated criminal indictments are starting to come together.

    C _ _ L _ S _ _ _

    Just wait until he buys a vowel.

  53. 53
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @sdhays: Personally, I’d like it for Labor Day, at the latest. :-)

    If it’s what you hope it is, I’d love it! Especially later in the summer.
    ETA: There’s a post article today comparing trump and Meuller as sons of privilege, the latter going from St Paul’s and a Princeton dining club to Vietnam. I’m sure the Beast will read it with his sharpie, scrawling FAKE in the margins for Kellyanne and Hope

  54. 54
    LAO says:

    @Jumbo76: Have you ever represented a federal cooperator? In order to obtain a cooperation agreement and the benefit of a 5K1 letter, the cooperator must disclose all of their prior criminal conduct, not just conduct related to their current charges. I expect the current indictment is a reflection of a narrow piece of this investigation rather than the sum total.

  55. 55
    geg6 says:

    @Jumbo76:

    We have no idea how it all circles around to the campaign and transition. But the timeline sure tracks with that period. And there were lots of other things going on during that time. Mueller know a hell of a lot more than we do, so I’m pretty certain he knows where he’s going with this. Rachel Maddow had a couple of pretty good hypotheses last night on how this all ties together. And that’s just based on what is already out there for us all to see. One of her guests made a really good point. The last two indictments, the Russians and Gates/Manafort, are telling us a story that Mueller wants us to follow and understand. If you read the indictments, they are extremely clearly written, with a layperson in mind. He’s telling us that the story he’s telling is a chapter book, not a children’s book.

  56. 56
    gvg says:

    @sdhays: Can you show where Putin seems rattled by this? I’d like to see too.

  57. 57
    WaterGirl says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Yeah, I was wondering about that at the start of this thread. Now I’m about 97% sure. In honor of the 97% who now believe in background checks for guns, I’m gonna call that a sure thing and add him to the pie filter.

  58. 58
    Dave says:

    @WaterGirl: It’s fairly obviously #3 if you’ve watched the social media responses it’s moved from there is nothing there to all these crimes aren’t the specific crimes being uncovered and charged don’t count because bthey aren’t the crime the poster thinks they should be. And somehow this means that an ongoing investigation is therefore irrelevant. It also pretends that every charge brought by Mueller is an isolated incident that no events are connected or will be connected. And that if certain events can be demonstrated sufficiently to bring charges therefore we are obligated to accept they must not have happened. It ain’t honest.

  59. 59
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’m sorry I don’t agree with you on everything. There is no way for me to prove my bona fides on the Internet. I have gone through a few different screen names, but I have been reading Balloon Juice and commenting here since approximately 2005. There were periods when I didn’t comment at all for years. It doesn’t make sense to call me a troll just because we don’t agree on certain points.

  60. 60
    BellyCat says:

    If Manafort flipping is the ultimate goal (with associated lessening of charges as a motivation for him), is Gates flipping a net benefit or loss in this pursuit?

    While Gates can surely sing a few useful ditties, Manafort’s vocalizations would be operatic.

  61. 61
    Jumbo76 says:

    @bystander:

    Oh, I’m always right on the internet. :)

  62. 62
    geg6 says:

    @Jumbo76:

    Were you alive during Watergate? That was pretty damn boring, too. All about money laundering and hidden funds and sleep inducing stuff like that. Until it wasn’t.

  63. 63
    Aimai says:

    @Jumbo76: you have zero idea if thhis is true. On the contrary what we know so far is that these guys operate within very tight criminal networks so their friends, coconspirators, contacts, and handlers are also going to be trump’s. And they also left an email trail.

  64. 64
    Barbara says:

    Going after money laundering is so appealing because it provides the leverage of potentially draconian penalties for something that does not provide any kind of information whatsoever to anyone else under investigation. I don’t know where it will end but picking off the low hanging fruit is how these things get done.

  65. 65

    @LAO: I have been meaning to ask you, what is going on with Gates and his elbenty lawyers. Its confusing and intriguing.

  66. 66
    japa21 says:

    Here’s the thing the latest troll seems to ignore. Mueller doesn’t need Gates to flip in relation to his going after Manafort. He has Manafort tied up really tight. So who might he want Gates to give him information about? Gates was around the campaign longer than Manafort and may well have been Manfort’s go between with the campaign. Groundwork is being laid for things that go much higher up.

  67. 67
    sdhays says:

    @gvg: I was referring to the apparent trolls popping up here.

  68. 68
    MomSense says:

    @WaterGirl:

    I want Manafort’s pick, Under His Eye Pence, to go down for this, too. I think this would make for an excellent Independence Day celebration.

  69. 69
    WaterGirl says:

    @Dave: Agree. I pied him about 3 minutes ago.

  70. 70
    MomSense says:

    @japa21:

    Gates also worked for RNC and with Brad Parscale.

  71. 71
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @BellyCat: Gates knows how and why the platform committee made its change at the GOP convention.

  72. 72
    Jumbo76 says:

    @LAO:

    I haven’t. That’s very interesting.

  73. 73
    WaterGirl says:

    @MomSense: Absolutely. Pence needs to go down for everything. His little “i know nothing” routine is all a lie.

  74. 74
    Jumbo76 says:

    @japa21:

    Or, you know, Gates wants to plead because he’s 45 and doesn’t want to spend his life in a federal prison while his daughters grow up.

  75. 75
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @japa21: I’ll bet the farm that the FBI got enough from Ukraine’s SBU about Manafort that Mueller doesn’t need anything or anyone else.

  76. 76
    zhena gogolia says:

    @bystander:

    I was just fantasizing about that this morning.

  77. 77

    @Major Major Major Major: A banned old troll, resurfaced with a new nym.

  78. 78
    Jumbo76 says:

    @geg6:

    No, I wasn’t alive during Watergate. That’s a good point.

  79. 79
    Jumbo76 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Nah, just decided to change my screen name.

  80. 80
    BellyCat says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Interesting angle.

  81. 81
    rikyrah says:

    @MomSense:

    In other Russia news, It seems to me that the NRA is acting scared and not just because the Parkland heroes are out messaging and out organizing them. Trump took 30 million from the NRA and if the chatter about Russian money going to the NRA is true – well then we are going to see some really interesting times ahead.

    RICO…
    R-I-C-O

    yes yes yes

  82. 82
    Elizabelle says:

    @Jumbo76: from what, if I might ask?

  83. 83
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Aimai:

    Yes, I don’t know what Mueller knows. There are a lot of connections that are possible. Everything seems to be coming back to Ukraine. The LawFare podcast recently pointed out that it all ties back to the Maidan In 2014, which Putin apparently believed was a US operation. Manafort and Gates are also tied to that, and Trump apparently has other connections to Ukraine, including, IIRC, Michael Cohen who has been paying off porn stars recently. There’s a lot I don’t know. I’m just saying that what has come out of Mueller a office so far hasn’t added up to much.

  84. 84
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Jumbo76:
    Not sure how this is relevant here.

  85. 85
    geg6 says:

    @Jumbo76:

    I have also been told I am an INTJ, too. What you’re saying is pretty much the opposite of what INTJ is. From Wiki:

    I – Introversion preferred to extraversion: INTJs tend to be quiet and reserved. They generally prefer interacting with a few close friends rather than a wide circle of acquaintances, and they expend energy in social situations (whereas extroverts gain energy).[9]
    N – Intuition preferred to sensing: INTJs tend to be more abstract than concrete. They focus their attention on the big picture rather than the details and on future possibilities rather than immediate realities.[10]
    T – Thinking preferred to feeling: INTJs tend to value objective criteria above personal preference or sentiment. When making decisions they generally give more weight to logic than to social considerations.[11]
    J – Judgment is auxiliary function (J or P illustrates auxiliary to introverts): INTJs tend to approach life in a structured way, planning and organising their world to achieve their goals.[12]

    That definition seems to put having a love for structure and logic higher than being disorganized. Being intuitive doesn’t mean you are scattered or a prisoner of your intuitions. In fact, this is one of the rarest types and is well known for being very fond of building their cases.

    INTJs are strong individualists who seek new angles or novel ways of looking at things. They enjoy coming to new understandings. They tend to be insightful and mentally quick; however, this mental quickness may not always be outwardly apparent to others since they keep a great deal to themselves. They are very determined people who trust their vision of the possibilities, regardless of what others think. They may even be considered the most independent of all of the sixteen personality types. INTJs are at their best in quietly and firmly developing their ideas, theories, and principles.

    And:

    NTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion “Does it work?” to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. This in turn produces an unusual independence of mind, freeing the INTJ from the constraints of authority, convention, or sentiment for its own sake … INTJs are known as the “Systems Builders” of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait of combining imagination and reliability. Whatever system an INTJ happens to be working on is for them the equivalent of a moral cause to an INFJ; both perfectionism and disregard for authority come into play. Personal relationships, particularly romantic ones, can be the INTJ’s Achilles heel … This happens in part because many INTJs do not readily grasp the social rituals … Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense.

  86. 86
    Fair Economist says:

    @Jumbo76:

    The superseding indictment was pretty boring. I am starting to think that there just isn’t anything here. We’ll see, of course.

    Possibly the largest fraud indictments ever against a public figure is “boring”? Manafort’s indictment involves more than twice as much money as Leona Helmsley, Wesley Snipes, Pete Rose, Willie Nelson, and Martha Steward COMBINED. Commensurate interest would produce literally years of heavy media coverage and produce multiple standard touch-phrases even if there were no political or international implications – which there are, in spades.

  87. 87
    geg6 says:

    @Barbara:

    The bank fraud charges may very well be what puts him right there. If the properties that he is using for collateral are all he has at this point (and the scramble he and Gates did to get the fraudulent loans suggest this is true), then he has nothing left.

  88. 88
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Jumbo76: Oooh, my goodness, we’re so boooorrred with evidence of corruption and money laundering. Poor snowflake.

    Why don’t you get off the computer and go play with yourself if you need stimulation, Junior.

  89. 89
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I used to use Not That Proud

  90. 90
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Jumbo76: Manafort’s work for Yanukovych goes back over a decade.

  91. 91
    The Ancient Randonneur says:

    Multiple news outlets now independently confirm Gates cooperation.

    Tick, tock ….

  92. 92
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    Yeah, look, there are a lot of criminals out there. What we want to know is if there was a connection between Russia and the Trump campaign. That hasn’t come out yet. The more we get boring stuff, the more I think it isn’t going to happen. I don’t know what to tell you.

  93. 93
    danielx says:

    Re: picture of Gates on NYT web page – that neck beard thing is not a good look for you, Rick.

    Nor for anyone else for that matter.

  94. 94
    Fair Economist says:

    @Barbara:

    The only way he would flip is if he was really and truly facing complete forfeiture of his assets.

    Manafort was already committing bank fraud because he owed more than he has. With convictions for multiple counts of tax and band fraud coming (’cause you know he’s guilty) he’s going to forfeit anything they can find, and since they’ve got his emails, that’s probably pretty much everything.

  95. 95
    Jumbo76 says:

    @geg6:

    This must be why I get called a troll all the time. Those descriptions are fairly accurate. I spent a fair amount of yesterday reading the congressional debate about the second amendment and figuring out what what the actual militia is, because I’m tired of the gun debates. I was told by the psychologist that this is also more intuitive, and I sometimes jump to conclusions that I can’t explain to people at work. so that felt like it fit also.

  96. 96
    The Moar You Know says:

    Just went out and got myself a slice of pie – Jumbo76 size.

    Your schtick is obvious, my friend.

  97. 97
    Fair Economist says:

    There is certainly a connection to the Trump campaign. Mueller just wants to get the Russians *first* and then get Trump, because that way a pardon from Trump will produce complete and utter political catastrophe for the Republicans.

  98. 98
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Jumbo76: Are you really a lawyer, or do you just play one on the Internet? Jesus Chicken-Fried Christ. What, it’s not enough to build a series of fucking cases that have to withstand the highest level of scrutiny, Mueller is supposed to fucking ENTERTAIN us with the pace of his indictments?

    “Not enough suspense. The action doesn’t move quickly enough for me. So I’m not convinced there’s anything there. I am not a troll.”

  99. 99
    Yarrow says:

    Good morning, Juicers.

    Mueller is working methodically. He knows what he’s doing and the noose is tightening around these traitors. Trump, his associates, his family, top GOP leadership and even some useful idiot elected R and D reps. They’re all going down. Tick tock, motherfuckers.

  100. 100
    Sanjeevs says:

    Things look a lot different for Manafort now compared to 48 hours ago
    1 Gates flipped
    2 New charges which can probably lead to state level charges of tax evasion
    3 His wife owned at least one of the laundering companies
    4 Daughter and her husband probably lied to a bank that they lived in a property of his when it was rented out

    He is definitely going to jail. His whole family may be joining him.
    And Manafort knows what Trump knows about the Trump tower collusion meeting

  101. 101
    Fair Economist says:

    It is sad that the trolls are reduced to saying that the largest fraud case against a previously-public figure, involving money from attempts to overthrow a sovereign government, is “boring”. Really, that’s the best they’ve got? Not even a fig leaf, just laughable claims.

  102. 102

    Do not engage with the R troll, spewing R talking points.

  103. 103
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Yarrow: YAY, you’re back! Did you know we were all worried when you weren’t around, and we were mumbling “tick tock motherfuckers, hey, where the hell is Yarrow?!”?

  104. 104
    dr. bloor says:

    @Barbara: Mueller has Manafort’s daughter on the hook for at least one of those counts in the indictment. I don’t know that I trust Manafort to put the well being of family members ahead of his own, but Mueller can make life exceedingly unpleasant for them going forward absent any cooperation from the old man.

  105. 105
    Cermet says:

    Of course, Mueller has access to top secret recordings that can never be revealed; I suspect that Gates may have knowledge of these things (what was said and by who and for what reason) and can provide cover for Mueller so he can go after tRump’s son-in-law using this knowledge (via Gates so, no compromising of sources/methods.) Guessing. Otherwise, Gates adds little and his turning amounts to even less. Like to see him turn. Media is reporting but nothing official so far.

  106. 106
    Jeffro says:

    @rikyrah:

    RICO…
    R-I-C-O

    yes yes yes

    I know, right? It is the hammer just waiting to swing…it’s what will eventually get Trumpov to the table and eventually cause him to resign.

  107. 107
    trollhattan says:

    @Chyron HR:
    “”No collusion, no collusion, you’re the collusion!”

    Read Trump, he’s an open book and we’re reading the chapter named Bigly Concerned.

  108. 108
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jumbo76: Are you alive now?

  109. 109
    trollhattan says:

    @Fair Economist:
    I have little doubt the feds would have found it far more satisfying to convict Capone of smashing some mook’s skull with a baseball bat, but tax evasion did the same job. Same for Trump. Always remember–he’s deeply ignorant and proud of it, can’t be bothered with this or that pesky statute while spreading his brand and his holy seed.

  110. 110
    rikyrah says:

    @WaterGirl:

    You can go to the Maddow Blog and find it there:

    http://www.msnbc.com/maddowblog

    Basically, Maddow was talking with Rosenberg (who, because of his stoicism has become one of my favorite analysts…he’s so ‘ by the book’), that they would have to go through two trials, instead of one, and that this is just another way to put the squeeze on.

  111. 111

    Wow. All it took was Mueller hitting Gates with a sledgehammer to get him to flip (maybe, again).

    Gates was probably all “you’re bluffing, I won’t flip” and Mueller was “I don’t bluff” and dropped that hammer and now Gates is all “OH FFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUU–” and trump is all “WHERE’S MY GODHOOD PUTIN PROMISED ME I WOULD BE GOD-EMPEROR” and Leto II is all “Bitch hold my spiced beer” and…

  112. 112
    rikyrah says:

    @BellyCat:

    While Gates can surely sing a few useful ditties, Manafort’s vocalizations would be operatic.

    They can sing different operas.

    While Manafort knows all sorts of bad guys…
    Gates is the one who connects the dots..
    He was there..
    for the campaign…
    for the transition..
    into the White House…

    Not many folks have all three of these…

  113. 113
  114. 114
    Adria McDowell says:

    @dr. bloor: Say what you want about Flynn, but the second Mueller brought up his son, he was like “wait, not my kid.” I don’t get that feeling from Manafort.

    Or Trump, either. Not even for Ivanker.

  115. 115

    @rikyrah:

    I’ve been considering the NRA being a money racket – extortion, bribes, squeezing out competition (they intentionally shut down ANYBODY who tries to promote a safe gun design) – for some time

  116. 116
    Adria McDowell says:

    I think my comment got ate.

  117. 117
    Fair Economist says:

    The coming trials are going to have big international implications. Mueller has gotten access to a lot of private communication and financial records from Manafort. Russian interference in Ukraine is going to be exposed in a big way when this goes to trial and the evidence is presented. Even worse for Putin, the fraud continued into the proxy invasion of Ukraine, so probably that operation will get exposed too. All attached to a case everybody knows connects to Trump, even if Mueller hasn’t filed those indictments – yet. Oh, this is going to FASCINATE Europe, and Russia’s near abroad in particular.

    I can see why Putin is pissed and sending his trolls here.

  118. 118
    rikyrah says:

    @Yarrow:

    They’re all going down.

    Yarrow,

    BEEN MISSING YOU!!!!

    Good to see you!!!

    Tick tock, motherfuckers.

    NEVER EVER EVER GETS OLD :)

  119. 119
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    trump at Crazy PAC

    Arthur Delaney @ ArthurDelaneyHP
    “the teacher would have shot the hell out of him before he knew what happened”

    [APPLAUSE]

    “we also need to create a culture in our community that cherishes life and human dignity… a culture that condemns violence and never glorifies violence.”

    @ JohnJHarwood
    he’s sweating

  120. 120

    All these guilty pleas prove that Russiagate is just a neoliberal conspiracy to take the heat off of Hillary Clinton.

  121. 121
    bemused says:

    Now, Gates thinks about his family! He could have thought about them long ago before he started down the money laundering/tax evasion road but he chose not to.

  122. 122
    Adria McDowell says:

    @dr. bloor: Flynn’s an asshole, but he cares what happens to his son. Manafort? Nah sah much.

    Same with Trump. Not even for Ivanker.

  123. 123
    Yarrow says:

    @Miss Bianca: An exchange here on a sensitive topic was very upsetting to me so I had to step away. And then my life became complicated again, so…. Glad to see that people are keeping up the tradition when I’m not here.

    @schrodingers_cat: Thanks.

    Also, in case no one is checking the previous thread, I just posted about Roger Stone’s connection to Steve Israel the Broward County Sheriff, so things are not as simple as they look in the blame-the-deputy game.

  124. 124
    Yarrow says:

    @rikyrah: :) Thanks.

  125. 125
    MattF says:

    I’m starting to think that Mueller’s main goal is figuring out and documenting the real history of what’s going on here.. Given that you-know-who is POTUS, convictions and jail time may turn out to be a remote possibility– but a detailed and comprehensive history of Trump’s collusion and treason will put down a marker that won’t be forgotten.

    In any case, I’m sure he’s well aware of the possibilities, and is seeing to it that the story is told. And, in the end, that may have to be enough..

  126. 126
    WaterGirl says:

    @Yarrow: Good morning, Yarrow! I was just about to type a comment saying we needed your:

    Tick tock, motherfuckers!

  127. 127
    Jeffro says:

    @rikyrah: Seconded on both counts – great to see you, Yarrow! And no it doesn’t ever get old, knowing that Orange Crash’s days are numbered.

  128. 128
    Barbara says:

    @dr. bloor: Yes, a true mobster would have known to keep their family members out of the picture. But I think it’s actually the son-in-law who allegedly submitted a false certification to a bank providing money for a loan that he was using a property as a primary residence. Manafort might not think the son in law is worth the sacrifice. He appears to be extremely amoral and highly transactional in his outlook on things in general.

  129. 129
    Radiumgirl says:

    @Jumbo76: Then stop reading about it and confine your online time to video games.

  130. 130
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Yarrow: I saw that post, good catch on the Broward Co sheriff, will have to read up on that link.

    Yes, we missed you. We jackals worry even when we’re being insensitive jag-offs. We’re funny that way.

  131. 131
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @germy: Has Dr. Stein ever explained what she was doing dining in Russia with Putin and Flynn prior to the 2016 election? She has no credibility on the Russian interference front and really needs to find some seats to take.

  132. 132
    germy says:

    In a letter to loved ones obtained by ABC News, Gates wrote that “despite my initial desire to vigorously defend myself, I have had a change of heart.”

    He went on: “The reality of how long this legal process will likely take, the cost, and the circus-like atmosphere of an anticipated trial are too much. I will better serve my family moving forward by exiting this process.”

  133. 133
  134. 134
    Barbara says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: What better way to cherish human life and reduce violence in our culture than by shooting first and asking questions later?

  135. 135
    BellyCat says:

    @rikyrah: True dat…

  136. 136
    Doug R says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    we’re never gonna get photos and tapes of trump and Vlad meeting in a small cafe behind the Hauptbahnhof in Zurich, where Vlad shows trump the lighter Marla gave him, but the Beast obstructed justice, and he’s hiding his tax returns and declaring his and his family’s business off limits for a reason

    Yeah, but we do have a meeting with Russians in TRUMP TOWER with Manafort on the phone (texting and emailing to Moscow and/or trump, donald?) and Kushner leaving part way in (to consult with trump, donald on another floor?)

  137. 137
    manyakitty says:

    @geg6: Yeah, I guess my test was right, because that’s pretty much me.

  138. 138
    WaterGirl says:

    @rikyrah: Thanks. The other day I had even tried going to the MSNBC site and tracing it down from there, and still no luck. But finding it from the meadow blog worked! Thank you.

    off to watch it now.

  139. 139
    Barbara says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Jill Stein is apparently too stupid to realize that the more knowledge she professes to have about Russian interference the more obvious it becomes to the world at large that she is in fact a Russian stooge.

  140. 140
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Lol!! If he wasn’t so dangerous and bigoted, Trump would actually be a little entertaining. His stupidity is breathtaking.

    On a happy note, it’s great to hear about the businesses that are dropping the NRA. Good move.

  141. 141

    @geg6: I’m an INTP, it’s how come i programmer good

    ETA to paraphrase Kurt Vonnegut, who said something along the lines of “I’m a monopolar depressive descended from other monopolar depressives; it’s how come I write so good”

  142. 142
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Doug R: I don’t for a moment believe Slabhead Jr didn’t print that email out and run up three flights of stairs to show it to daddy– desperately panting for a pat on the head and a “good boy” and a “Jared Who?”– but that could be hard to prove

  143. 143
    Yarrow says:

    @WaterGirl: @Jeffro: Thanks. I am rather sanguine about it in some ways. They are all going down. Mueller and his team are smart, methodical, and way ahead of the idiots they’re going after. It’s getting to where there are bad options, more bad options, and even worse options for the traitors. At some level they know it. You can see the desperation.

    @Miss Bianca: Thanks. It was on a subject that is difficult at the best of times. Plus, as I said, my life got complicated again.

  144. 144
  145. 145
    LAO says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Sorry just back from the vet with my poor pukey dog, I have no idea. I think, it’s just a case of the media not understanding what’s going on. New lawyer put in notice and consents to the withdrawal of prior counsel. It’s fairly typical. I think people were surprised because Green is known to be a plea deal maker and Gates didn’t plead guilty (yet).

  146. 146
    MomSense says:

    @Yarrow:

    Glad you are back. We’ve been worrying and sending good energy your way.

  147. 147
    Nicole says:

    @Yarrow: That was a really interesting article; thanks for the link. I did find it weird that all of sudden this guy was getting scapegoated in a way that armed responders in other situations have not been. I feel for the guy, actually. I don’t know that most of us would have done any different. Fear is very, very powerful.

  148. 148
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    OT: I would like to put this girl through college, send her to Europe, buy her a car, something

    A survivor of the deadly shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School criticized Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Twitter early Friday, suggesting he is “easy to buy” for accepting donations from the National Rifle Association (NRA).
    “We should change the names of AR-15s to ‘Marco Rubio’ because they are so easy to buy,” Stoneman Douglas sophomore Sarah Chadwick tweeted Friday.

  149. 149
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Yarrow:

    Thanks. It was on a subject that is difficult at the best of times.

    There was a pizza war again, and I missed it?

  150. 150
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Yarrow:

    Woah! Welcome back!

    You can’t imagine how many of us have missed your “tick tock, motherfuckers.” Others have typed those words, with deep feeling, but the source is best.

  151. 151
    Jumbo76 says:

    Alright, folks, here’s a way to check up on me if you think I’m just some right wing troll. Here is a post from a libertarian blog:

    http://dolanecon.blogspot.com/.....would.html

    I am the anonymous commenter. This guy Ed Dolan works at the Niskanen Center, which is sort of a moderate libertarian think tank. It’s hard to put moderate and libertarian in the same sentence, but they’re not absolutely nuts. Anyway, that’s me in the comments. I have no way to really prove that other than, why the hell would I know about that post if it wasn’t me?

    I also use this screenname—jumbo76–at the former gawker sites, like Jalopnik. If you catch see it over there, that’s me.

    Anyway.

  152. 152
    errg says:

    @germy:
    What a little whiner he is…

  153. 153
    Nicole says:

    Guys, I can only say this now because my father, who adored the MBTI test and was very proud of being an INFP, has passed on, but it’s bunk:

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/the-myers-briggs-personality-test-is-pretty-much-meaningless-9359770/

    Doesn’t mean it’s not fun to take (I enjoy reading horoscopes and the occasional Tarot card reading too), but it’s not actually useful. Businesses like to use it because it’s inexpensive.

  154. 154
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: Did you get my email?

  155. 155
    BellyCat says:

    @Patricia Kayden: As for the NRA, in 2016 they spent 51 times the amount of their individual contributions received in lobbying.

    No doubt, Mueller is examining whether legitimate corporate donations solely make up the balance of their coffers or whether this cash came from the benevolence of Putin and Friends.

  156. 156
    rikyrah says:

    @Sanjeevs:

    He is definitely going to jail. His whole family may be joining him.
    And Manafort knows what Trump knows about the Trump tower collusion meeting

    Now, THAT’s a muthaphucka…got your ENTIRE FAMILY WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF JOINING YOU IN JAIL.

  157. 157
    SFAW says:

    @Yarrow:

    Tick tock, motherfuckers.

    Good to see you back. Was getting worried.

  158. 158
    Yarrow says:

    @MomSense: Thanks. Appreciate it.

    @Nicole: I think the blame-the-deputy tactic is a Roger Stone ratfucking tactic. We shouldn’t fall for it. Insist on a proper investigation and then ask why the Sheriff has such close ties to Roger Stone. Push back. The deputy may have done the wrong thing, but usually one officer who isn’t properly equipped with bullet proof vests and a helmet and so forth rushing into an active shooting situation isn’t the right protocol.

  159. 159
    different-church-lady says:

    @Jumbo76: Proves nothing. Fax us your credenza.

  160. 160
    prostratedragon says:

    @Jumbo76: I do much less yawning during the day since I began sleep therapy. Perhaps it would help you.

  161. 161
    LAO says:

    @Jumbo76: You could be a lawyer IRL, I’m a lawyer, who specializes in criminal defense. What I know about personal injury law or non-criminal tax law would fit on the head of a pin.

  162. 162
    Yarrow says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Yes. Thanks. I thanked you for it in the previous thread. Life has been very complicated recently. Sorry for not responding sooner.

  163. 163

    @rikyrah: You tease, stop it. Just … stop it.

    *grinZ*

  164. 164
    SFAW says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “We should change the names of AR-15s to ‘Marco Rubio’ because they are so easy to buy,” Stoneman Douglas sophomore Sarah Chadwick tweeted Friday.

    Dayum.

  165. 165
    Yarrow says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: @SFAW: Thanks. Life got really complicated for a bit.

  166. 166
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @SFAW: All due respect to the jackals here, but nobody can do snark like a high school sophomore.

  167. 167

    @PaulWartenberg:

    …and Leto II is all “Bitch hold my spiced beer” and…

    bwahahahahahahahaha this is excellent.

  168. 168
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: I’m absolutely loving the Parkland survivors’ strength and outspokenness and hope they persevere despite the death threats coming their way. They have reinvigorated the gun debate.

  169. 169
    Milo says:

    @Jumbo76: I’ve been here, on and off, since Cole’s Heel Face Turn, using a bunch of a different names. Don’t take the accusations to heart. For the past couple of years, BJ has become strict about chambering the right echo. I’m trying to think of the last time I was surprised by an opinion I read here. Been a long while.

  170. 170
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Jumbo76: Pro-tip: Saying “Guys! Guys! I say troll-y things, but I’m not a troll – here’s my comment on a libertarian blog to prove it!” does not…necessarily prove what you think it does.

  171. 171
    LAO says:

    @SFAW: apparently, conservatives on Twitter are having a meltdown over “rude teens”. What a bunch of snowflakes.

  172. 172
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Patricia Kayden: they also talk a lot about voting, none of this “We won’t sully ourselves by cooperating with a corrupt system!” blather. I read yesterday that the seventeen-year-olds are counting the time until they can register to vote in very specific terms, months and days

  173. 173
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Milo: would you like a parakeet ?

  174. 174

    @Nicole: it’s bunk as a diagnostic criteria and businesses shouldn’t use it for anything and yes, of course there aren’t only sixteen discrete categories of people and by its nature it has binary choices—but it’s got replicable results and it’s fun. I don’t know why some people get a kick out of tearing it down to the ground when you could just tear it down to the level it belongs—better than most personality tests.

    (As for the Barnum effect and many tests only listing positive characteristics, that’s not actually a criticism of the test)

  175. 175
    Fair Economist says:

    “I am not a troll, because I have posted anonymously to another site.”

    Is this part of the comic relief squad?

  176. 176
    Miss Bianca says:

    @SFAW: Oh, that is some sick burn. Yeah, *do not* try to match wits with a smart high school kid if you’re a RWNJ. They’ll leave you in the dust.

  177. 177

    @BellyCat: I loves me some forensic accounting! Between this and whispers of RICO I’m getting all squirmy in my chair here. I’m with Yarrow & Co. on this one, tick tock!

  178. 178
    bemused says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    I love these kids. Smart, articulate, savvy. They see through the lying scum pols and no fear of calling them out.

  179. 179
    Doug R says:

    @Yarrow: “Bullet proof” vests are a misnomer. The average vest is designed to stop a handgun round, not an assault round fired at 3X the speed.
    Energy=mass times velocity SQUARED

  180. 180
    No Drought No More says:

    Gates is an army brat whose worship of mammon led him to betray his country. It’s hard to conceive just how how difficult facing up to his infamy must be for him, as it also must be for his family.. Manafort? From all I’ve discerned, the man is incapable of a genuine repentance on that score- it’s just not in him. But it might mean a great deal to his family and loved ones, too. Perhaps they can prevail on him to come clean for their sake, if not for the sake his country..

    At this point, Trump can no more pardon those two than he could pardon himself after murdering someone during a press conference on the White House Lawn. He could very well, of course, make the attempt..

  181. 181

    @Milo:

    I’ve been here, on and off, since Cole’s Heel Face Turn, using a bunch of a different names. [Most recently I picked ‘Milo’, which despite being the name of one of the most infamous trolls alive clears me from all suspicion]. For the past couple of years, BJ has become strict about chambering the right echo. I’m trying to think of the last time I was surprised by an opinion I read here. Been a long while.

    There are plenty of people here who are capable of expressing contrary opinions without being smarmy little shits.

  182. 182
    NotMax says:

    (To the tune of “K-K-K-Katy.”)

    G-G-G-Gatesy, treacherous Gatesy
    Mister Mueller kn-kn-kn-knows your schemes to score
    When the j-j-j-jury brings in a verdict
    You’ll be marched right through the s-s-s-slammer door

  183. 183
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Fair Economist: Lol!! I can’t laugh loudly in my office because colleagues will think I’m crazy. Y’all need to leave him or her alone.

    Perhaps he/she won’t think indictments are so boring once convictions start coming down. Who knows?

  184. 184
    Jumbo76 says:

    @different-church-lady:

    You’re inspecting countertops now? :)

  185. 185
    Kay says:

    The nothingburger Mueller investigation is the largest political scandal in decades. Already. Even without collusion.

    The NYTimes will regret not pursuing any of these issues during the campaign. The corruption in and around Trump Inc should have been the biggest story of the 2016 campaign, but they missed it.

    It doesn’t matter why they missed it and we could spend years speculating on motive. The thing is they missed it. That’s a fact.

    They’re now reduced to publishing the text of indictments, and anyone can read those. We don’t need a billion dollar campaign coverage industry to read us the text of indictments after the candidate is already elected. They cover candidates. The point of that is so we know something about the candidate BEFORE the election.

    They added no value. Remember- this isn’t the corruption the Trump Administration engaged and engages in AFTER they were elected.

    This had all HAPPENED by election day. We just didn’t know about it.

  186. 186
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    There are plenty of people here who are capable of expressing contrary opinions without being smarmy little shits.

    Yeah, but not someone named ‘Milo’, evidently.

  187. 187

  188. 188
    Fair Economist says:

    @Nicole:

    Guys, I can only say this now because my father, who adored the MBTI test and was very proud of being an INFP, has passed on, but it’s bunk:

    It’s not *entirely* bunk. While certainly nobody is 100% extrovert or introvert, some people are more extroverted than others, some people are more judgemental than others, etc., and so there are going to be some overall differences between people who are INTJ and those who are, say, ENFP. I agree there’s almost nothing on what being INTJ really means in terms of qualifications for a given job, etc.

  189. 189
    different-church-lady says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    There are plenty of people here who are capable of expressing contrary opinions without being smarmy little shits.

    Wait, when did that change?

  190. 190
    hedgehog the occasional commenter says:

    @Yarrow: Glad to see you back and tick tock!!!

  191. 191
    geg6 says:

    @manyakitty:

    I know. Me, too. Almost exactly me.

  192. 192
    different-church-lady says:

    @Kay:

    The NYTimes will regret not pursuing any of these issues during the campaign.

    No they won’t.

  193. 193
    Kay says:

    How do you have a campaign manager for a major party candidate in the US who is a career criminal and no one in the public finds out about that until after the election?

    What was the billion dollars that was paid for campaign coverage for? What value did they add?

  194. 194
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Fair Economist<@Patricia Kayden:

    Yes, once we get Trump Jr. or Jared on the hook, I won’t find that shit boring. What we have so far is Manafort committing bank fraud because he ran out of money and had a lavish lifestyle. Tell me why I should care about that?

  195. 195
    WaterGirl says:

    @Gin & Tonic: And not just snark. At that age, you just tell it like it is.

    I remember that on my 26th birthday my mom still had not gotten over something I had said to her when I was 13. I had lived another lifetime since then and she couldn’t let it go. When I was 13, my mom said I needed to treat her with more respect. I replied: “Respect is given where respect is due.” Older me looks back and thinks “ouch!”.

  196. 196
  197. 197
    H.E.Wolf says:

    @Yarrow:
    Glad to see your ‘nym in the comments! You’ve been much missed. I hope things will return to a less-complicated status.

  198. 198
    Fair Economist says:

    @Kay:

    It doesn’t matter why they missed it and we could spend years speculating on motive. The thing is they missed it. That’s a fact.

    I agree with most of what you said so eloquently, but it *does* matter why they missed it. Whether it’s blatant incompetence, covering up for a fellow sexual harasser, or participation in a political conspiracy, why the “paper of record” has supported the biggest and nastiest political conspiracy since at least Nixon and possibly ever in the US matters for how we fix it, which we need to do.

  199. 199
    geg6 says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Oooooo, that’s some third-degree level burn there.

  200. 200

  201. 201
    Corner Stone says:

    @Milo:

    I’m trying to think of the last time I was surprised by an opinion I read here. Been a long while.

    What are you talking about? I frequently post insightful thoughts on One Weird Trick(s) and get major pushback here.

  202. 202
    WaterGirl says:

    @Patricia Kayden: Think how mad you’d be if you had almost been killed in a massacre at your school and some rich, old, white, blowhard was attacking you for speaking out against guns. The mind boggles – what are these assholes thinking?

    I hope it’s high school kids who are 18 in November who vote these bastards out. Along with our help, of course.

  203. 203
    Chyron HR says:

    @Jumbo76:

    I was starting to wonder if the massive clouds of smoke billowing out from the Trump campaign might have a fire behind them, but your 50th frantic denial in the span of two hours has convinced me that Mueller’s got nothing at all! Nothing at all! Nothing at all! (As US Senator Ted Cruz, age 47, would doubtlessly put it.)

  204. 204

  205. 205
    manyakitty says:

    @geg6: Great minds and all. Heh.

  206. 206
    Jeffro says:

    Btw as y’all might imagine…of the top 5 stories on Fox News dot com right now…not a one is about Gates flipping (or anything close)

    5. Carnival cruise brawl
    4. James Woods – blacklisted from Hollywood for conservative views!
    3. female ex-KGB agent (and former model) from Belarus wins biathlon gold
    2. more the Florida deputy who didn’t go in to Parkland HS (will not use actual headline)
    and
    1. “CPAC Barnburner” (re: POTUS’ speech at CPAC) making special note that he slammed the media AND ‘Crooked Hillary’. Eat it, libtards!

    The above brought to you by a “news” organization covering the important issues of the day…

  207. 207
    Kay says:

    Donald Trump said he wasn’t paying Manafort and no one asked about that? They thought Manafort, with his 30 year history as a white collar criminal, was working for free?

    He wouldn’t cross the street for free. Someone paid him. I believe it wasn’t Trump! I buy that! But someone did.

  208. 208
    Jeffro says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: boy that “conspiracy against the United States” is gonna get a workout in 2018…just sayin’…

  209. 209
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:

    BUT….HER…EMAILS……….

  210. 210
    randy khan says:

    Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!

  211. 211
    Fair Economist says:

    Donald Trump said he wasn’t paying Manafort and no one asked about that? They thought Manafort, with his 30 year history as a white collar criminal, was working for free?

    I don’t remember the details, but I distinctly remember some of the media (and not just Fox) making excuses for Manafort – saying he was already rich and trying to make a difference or some such nonsense.

    Might be worth looking at exactly *who* said that.

  212. 212
    LAO says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: fascinating. Gates lied during a proffer session (2/1/18) -count 2 and the superseding information was filed on 2/2/18. Gates has been waffling for 3 weeks. Hmm.

  213. 213
    Spanky says:

    @Yarrow: HEY! People were worried about you!

    (ETA: I shall now go through the rest of the thread to read everyone else saying the same thing.)

  214. 214
    WaterGirl says:

    @Kay: I would pay good money to help buy a full-page ad in the NYT or Washington Post to see your entire comment in news print.

  215. 215
    Fair Economist says:

    @rikyrah:

    BUT….HER…EMAILS……….

    Does it mean anything that that phrase is starting to amuse me rather than enrage me?

  216. 216
    Kay says:

    @Jeffro:

    They’re making themselves irrelevant. If you job is to provide information about candidates BEFORE an election and you end up reading indictments aloud AFTER the election on events that transpired BEFORE the election reciting the indictments adds no value.

    We could have saved a billion dollars in campaign coverage and just hired Mueller to tell us about Trump. He’s probably making some low federal salary – he sure as shit isn’t making Matt Lauer money or Jake Tapper money.

    I can’t imagine a bigger failure. It goes to the heart of what they say they provide! This shit goes back YEARS. It had all happened by election day 2016. TIMELY. Information has to be TIMELY. Their deadline was November of 2016.

  217. 217
    MattF says:

    @Kay: Well yes. Here’s a Slate timeline of Manafort’s ill deeds that surprised even cynical little old me. Utterly cynical, the sort of guy that Trump would hire right away.

  218. 218
    Ksmiami says:

    @MomSense: Rico suave- follow the money, scour the nra financial records- they r dirty as fuck… then drive the gop into the ground. The party is a threat to us democracy and the world

  219. 219
    Nicole says:

    @Fair Economist: But the MBTI depends on the either-or. Yes, of course some folk are more introverted than others, but the MBTI is not a good or reliable way of decerning that, or of determining aptitude for work, which is how it is used. It’s like setting up work groups based on employees’ astrological signs.

    Again, I enjoy a horoscope, and I enjoyed taking the MBTI. I did it twice, and as honestly as I could, a few years apart, and came out with very different results. But it’s just a fun quiz developed by two people without any scientific training, that somehow has managed to be sold as a legitimate personality/aptitude test.

  220. 220
    WaterGirl says:

    What’s the deal with having to file in one jurisdiction vs. another for some of these recent bank charges?

  221. 221
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Yarrow: Welcome back, Yarrow!

    Tick Tock indeed.

  222. 222

    @Nicole: plenty of versions of the test give you percentages for each trait.

  223. 223
    Kay says:

    @rikyrah:

    I think Mueller is deliberately drafting the “narrative” part of these indictments in an understandable way because he’s telling us the story of what happened in the 2016 election. By the end of this you’ll be able to put those together as a coherent timeline.

    Which is great but it’s 2018! Too late for the 2016 election.

    Let’s end campaign coverage and just hire 18 prosecutors to investigate both candidates prior to the election. We’ll save 99% of costs and know a lot more.

  224. 224
    MisterForkbeard says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Look, consistency (or even coherence) has never been Trump’s strong suit.

  225. 225
    MattF says:

    @MisterForkbeard: Well, Trump consistently denies any responsibility for anything. Except for a rising stock market.

  226. 226
    Elizabelle says:

    @Kay: Thank you, Kay. Agree in total about the FTF NY Times.

    Wondering if their willful obtuseness springs from the publisher’s suite (fucking Sulzbergers, Pinch has a lot to answer for, tiny man that he is). Or if they’re compromised in some major way. (Pinch just stepped down, to elevate his son. I wondered about the timing, but maybe it’s just age.)

    I hope the Mueller investigation takes down big media too. They’re overpaid and under serious.

  227. 227
    Fair Economist says:

    @Kay:

    Let’s end campaign coverage and just hire 18 prosecutors to investigate both candidates prior to the election. We’ll save 99% of costs and know a lot more.

    In all seriousness, this is a good idea.

  228. 228
    rikyrah says:

    @Jeffro:

    Donald Trump said he wasn’t paying Manafort and no one asked about that? They thought Manafort, with his 30 year history as a white collar criminal, was working for free?

    He wouldn’t cross the street for free. Someone paid him. I believe it wasn’t Trump! I buy that! But someone did.

    They did professional malpractice in 2016, and when it’s all said and done, should NEVER be allowed to forget it.

  229. 229
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:

    I think Mueller is deliberately drafting the “narrative” part of these indictments in an understandable way because he’s telling us the story of what happened in the 2016 election. By the end of this you’ll be able to put those together as a coherent timeline.

    Which is great but it’s 2018! Too late for the 2016 election.

    ICAM

    That is exactly what’s happening.

  230. 230
    Jumbo76 says:

    @Chyron HR:

    At what point did I deny anything? What I have said, I think fairly consistently, is that so far this has been focused on crimes that Manafort and Gates committed that were not related to the election and the more we hear about that the less likely it seems to me that there will be crimes charges relating to the election. You can disagree with me. That’s fine. You may well be right. All I’m saying is that the evidence isn’t there yet and I’m becoming more skeptical that it will happen.

    Did you read the Statement of the Offense from Zwaan? It says the following:

    “At all relevant times herein, the Special Counsel’s Office had an open investigation into [Manafort] and [Gates] in connection with, among other things, their work in the United States on behalf of foreign principals as to which they had not registered under [FARA]. The investigation encompassed United States lobbying and public relations work on behalf of the Ukraine Ministry of Justice in 2012, including the dissemination to the United States media and others of a report written by an international law firm [] concerning the trial of Yulia Tymoshenko.”

    They’re telling you what they’re investigating. Of course, you can make whatever you want out of “among other things.” But you’re reading tea leaves. No one cares about Manafort and Gates disseminating Skadden’s report. No one cares. I need to hear something about what Manafort and Gates did in 2016. Something other than mortgage fraud. You know what Manafort’s mortgage fraud was? He lied about his intended use of the funds he was going to receive. Holy shit, that’s some boring stuff.

    Spin out whatever theory you want, but you have to admit that this isn’t interesting.

  231. 231
    PJ says:

    @Kay: I am certain that the NYT editorial staff believed beyond a doubt that Hilary would be elected, and they wanted to have established themselves as being thoroughly “critical” of her (as opposed to other candidates), so that when she took office they would have a running start at being “unbiased” for the next four years. (Just like they didn’t want to get on the “wrong side” of the Iraq war in the early ’00s.) They couldn’t be bothered to investigate the corruption in Trump’s business career or his campaign – and went so far as to report that the FBI had cleared him of any collusion with the Russians, which was absolutely false – because, from their perspective, it was unimportant. The fact that as citizens and voters this information was vital, not just to make an informed decision on how to vote, but also to encourage government investigation and prosecution of numerous serious crimes, was irrelevant to their behavior. What was, and is, important to the Times’ editors (and many of their political reporters) is how they perceive themselves in the milieu of their profession. They want to be seen as being the most serious, the most unbiased, blah blah blah (basically, the view from nowhere, which is the view of someone who is insulated from the real consequences of political decisions), accepted and respected by high level politicians and the wealthy, so that they can speak at seminars at the Aspen Institute with their heads held high. Getting to the truth about the political and economic realities of life in this country is not among their priorities.

  232. 232
    MCA1 says:

    Why are we spending so much time trying to divine whether jumbo’s a troll or not? Let’s just slay their point instead.
    His/her initial post took a kernel of legitimate worry/concern, and blew it all out of proportion. It’s fallacious logically so let it wither on the vine.

    Yes, there is a chance that Mueller can’t find direct evidence that Dotard himself was fully aware of everything swirling around him and actively complicit with Russian attempts to boost his campaign. And yes, there is a chance that Junior and whoever else were too bumbling and inexperienced as political operators to be of much actual use to Putin, so they relied on the deployment of the bots and stolen identities and stupidity of the American public to spread their disinformation. There is a possibility it was all just some amorphous effort to confuse everyone, sow discord and loosen Americans’ trust of their fellow citizens to set us to fighting with one another while Vlad raided the henhouse or whatever.

    Those things do nag at the back of my mind, because societally we’ve apparently accepted the moving goalposts Republicans have handed us, which are currently at something like unless there’s video evidence of Trump shaking hands with Putin and saying he’ll do his best to serve Mother Russia in the White House while Putin hands him a suitcase with dollar bills falling out the seams, none of this is a big deal. Instead of: this is the most manifestly corrupted and self-serving administration that’s ever been conceived and all we need do for evidence is look at the people it attracted before the election even happened. Literally every day that passes there’s another grounds for impeachment. Yesterday it should have been “The two people most integral to the Trump campaign were GIGANTIC CRIMINALS running an international money laundering scheme the likes of which has never before been prosecuted.” Last Friday it should have been “We are at cyber war with Russia.” Instead we’re playing down 20+ counts of money laundering and fraud like it’s a letdown.

    But looking at yesterday’s indictments in a vacuum, and being disappointed that they don’t spell out something more than might eventually be spelled out, is silly. It’s a continuum and a slow-moving process here. We’ve now had half a dozen people involved in the campaign indicted, plus the f’ing National Security Advisor and his son, too. Add in the indictments of over a dozen Russian citizens, Kushner’s continued problems surrounding Russians, Sessions’ recusal problems stemming from Russians, Dolt 45’s disclosure of national intelligence behind closed doors to Russians, and his refusal to place legislated sanctions on the Russians. I don’t know why yesterday’s indictments not being explicitly about Manafort cementing contractual agreements with Vladimir Putin does anything to erase all of that stuff. To expect one point on the continuum of events in the special counsel’s investigation, yesterday’s indictments, to be the silver bullet that spells it all out and then going “boooriiiing” when it doesn’t is absurd.

  233. 233
    Immanentize says:

    Here is some good perspective.
    Mueller is moving freaking fast

  234. 234
    Spanky says:

    @Patricia Kayden: After having been through a massacre and then 17 consecutive funerals for my classmates, I suspect that I would have been fundamentally, profoundly changed. It took many years before I ran out of fucks to give. These kids left theirs in their school on Valentine’s Day.

  235. 235
    Wapiti says:

    @Fair Economist: I was once in a course where we took the MBTI, then ran exercises with the group’s leadership staggered by their E/I state. So if an ‘extrovert’ was the lead on the project, her deputies were ‘introverts’ and down the line (limited to our pool of personalities). We also did it reversed. It worked surprisingly well. I think the test can inform staffing choices, but likely on the margins, because other skills and characteristics (and pay package) are also considerations.

    I did once peg the 100% introvert rating on a MB test, taken in a new job, new location, etc. I wasn’t a 100% introvert even then, though my test result could indicate that I wanted to be.

  236. 236
    Kay says:

    @Fair Economist:

    Well, I don’t know. It would be gamed almost immediately. There are prosecutors and then there are ..prosecutors.

    Two words- Ken Starr. Shudder. Maybe we could specifically bar him, by name, in the statute :)

  237. 237
    Miss Bianca says:

    @PJ:

    The fact that as citizens and voters this information was vital, not just to make an informed decision on how to vote, but also to encourage government investigation and prosecution of numerous serious crimes, was irrelevant to their behavior. What was, and is, important to the Times’ editors (and many of their political reporters) is how they perceive themselves in the milieu of their profession. They want to be seen as being the most serious, the most unbiased, blah blah blah (basically, the view from nowhere, which is the view of someone who is insulated from the real consequences of political decisions), accepted and respected by high level politicians and the wealthy, so that they can speak at seminars at the Aspen Institute with their heads held high. Getting to the truth about the political and economic realities of life in this country is not among their priorities.

    Sadly, I think you’re 100% right about this. But other than cancelling a FTFNYT subscription and writing a nasty letter to them, I’m not sure what will change this dynamic.

    Unless somewhere, in this “oh so booorrrrriinnng” build-up to the uncovering of the biggest political scandal this country has possibly ever seen, lie some indictments ready and waiting for some key media figures. That might get someone’s attention at the Grey Lady.

    I crack myself up.

  238. 238
    Wapiti says:

    @Immanentize: Interesting. And that doesn’t include Manafort, Gates, and their lawyer buddy – that’s only up to the 13 Russians and the identity peddler.

  239. 239
    Fair Economist says:

    @MomSense:

    Trump took 30 million from the NRA and if the chatter about Russian money going to the NRA is true – well then we are going to see some really interesting times ahead.

    Tick tock, motherkillers.

  240. 240
    Kay says:

    @MCA1:

    I understand the impulse to push back against the people who minimize what happened here, but in a way I feel like we’re beyond that.

    All the spin in the world won’t change the outcome. The time for spinning and lying was before Mueller was appointed.

    It’s like a big machine. Once it’s in “drive” it just goes. It’s so big that it’s impossible to stop until it runs out of road. The process takes over.

  241. 241
    Fair Economist says:

    @Kay:

    Well, I don’t know. It would be gamed almost immediately. There are prosecutors and then there are ..prosecutors.

    Seems we get those prosecutors assigned to us anyway, so I don’t think there’s much risk.

  242. 242
    PJ says:

    @Jumbo76: Obviously you have an idiosyncratic perspective which is different from many of the people here, but I would think the fact that two of the main people running the President’s campaign were so heavily involved in money laundering and fraud would be interesting to anyone who believes that politicians should have to abide by the law like everyone else.

    For us, there are many interesting questions: Is there a connection between their money-laundering and Trump’s rumored money-laundering? Out of all the other political consultants around, why were these people hired (as Kay points out, for free!)? Why have so many of Trump’s hires been indicted? Just a funny coincidence?

    My guess is that you will have the same reaction when Kushner and Don, Jr. are indicted – Trump just had these low-level people working for him who didn’t know what they were doing, what does this have to do with the President himself? None if this will ever be interesting to you, because you’re not going to see Mueller specifically laying out Trump’s involvement until he presents his findings to Congress or files indictments against him.

  243. 243
    Fair Economist says:

    @PJ:

    I am certain that the NYT editorial staff believed beyond a doubt that Hilary would be elected, and they wanted to have established themselves as being thoroughly “critical” of her (as opposed to other candidates), so that when she took office they would have a running start at being “unbiased” for the next four years. (Just like they didn’t want to get on the “wrong side” of the Iraq war in the early ’00s.)

    Yet somehow the NYT editorial staff never seems to worry about being on the “wrong side” unless they’re siding with the more evil side of the Republican party.

  244. 244
    Jumbo76 says:

    @MCA1:

    But looking at yesterday’s indictments in a vacuum, and being disappointed that they don’t spell out something more than might eventually be spelled out, is silly.

    This is a fair response. I would point out two issues: yes, I agree that the Trump Adminstration is spectacularly corrupt, but the people recruited before the election really don’t have anything to do with that. That doesn’t make sense.

    Second, with regard to the above quote, you’re looking at the Trump Campaign and Trump’s love of Russia, and then speculating about what “might eventually be spelled out.” What I’m saying is that it isn’t trending in that direction. Do you think it is, and if so, why?

  245. 245
    Kay says:

    @MCA1:

    Defendants describe it like that- relentless. They don’t mean “dramatic” or “newsworthy” – they mean it has it’s own timeline and momentum and they can’t DO anything about that, except wait.

    That’s how Trump feels every day. Now he sees. It’s different than the civil process he’s used to and has gamed for 50 years. All his lying in depositions and bullying littler guys with his sleazy lawyers- none of that works in this. He’s out of the system he manipulated and into a different one.

  246. 246
    Immanentize says:

    @Kay: You’ve said this before about prosecution machines and it is so true! I think that the bogus House investigations into Benghazi and the emails gave Republicans, particularly Trump’s team, a completely false idea of what a truly dogged, non-partisan investigation really looks like. They really expected political hackery, but they got professional scrutiny instead

  247. 247
    Fair Economist says:

    Riffing off Roger Moore’s suggestion that much of “Manafort’s” money was actually being laundered for Russians (to explain how he went broke so fast), I wonder if some of it was being laundered for other interference campaigns like Brexit, or even Trump?

  248. 248
    PJ says:

    @Fair Economist: The Republican indoctrination of the last 38 years seems to have infected journalists far more than any other profession. Serious question – is this a function of journalism schools, or just journalists trying to emulate other “serious” journalists who drank the Kool-Aid? Once upon a time, journalists were not trained in it, but were naturally skeptical of the statements of interested people, in part because most of them did not come from positions of privilege and being a journalist was not a position of privilege – it wasn’t even considered a profession (horrors!)

  249. 249
    Jumbo76 says:

    @PJ:

    No, actually. I don’t care about Trump himself. So, the responses about not getting video of Trump and Putin shaking hands are really off point. What I want to know is if someone in the Trump Campaign worked with representatives of a foreign state in order to help get Trump elected. It’s plausible in my mind that Trump has nothing to do with it, but did Don Jr., did Roger Stone, did Jared, did Manafort and Gates? My problem is that, what we’re getting is Manafort and Gates laundered money. This is pretty far off the mark and it hasn’t really been getting closer.

  250. 250
    Adria McDowell says:

    @Jeffro: Googles your number 3……

    Model?!?

    …..’kay.

  251. 251
    Kay says:

    @Immanentize:

    Isn’t it like that, though? We hear it so often. “Why won’t they leave me alone?”

    Because they’re not done. They say when they’re done.

    Trump sounds exactly like a frantic criminal defendant, except I have some sympathy for them and none for him. I think people misunderstand the nature of it- they think it’s dramatic and scary- they use words like “hunted”. It’s much more like being slowly run over by a big machine- a machine that is ordinary and unremarkable which for some reason makes it worse. A 20 year old bus, not a sleek, modern fighter jet.

  252. 252
    Elizabelle says:

    @Jumbo76: I think Trump himself is awash in Russian money. He laundered it. He knows he did. He cannot get conventional financing. It’s why we never saw his tax returns. He is beholden to Russian money and Russian oligarchs and holds his interests, and theirs, above that of the United States.

    Trump is a millionaire (only), a reality TV star, a horrible businessman, a crook, and a fucking traitor. He is an illegitimate president.

  253. 253
    poleaxedbyboatwork says:

    @Kay:

    Ken Starr — whatta sweetheart of the rodeo he is! … and Joe DiGenova and Victoria Toensing and every panty-sniffing sophistical dickhead at Judicial Watch and and every shocked!shocked! prosecutor useful idiots like Tweety had on during the Great Clenis Penis Hunt (remember when perjury was a thing Jefferson Beauregard Sessions the Thoid and whatever will we tell the children!) and …

    Ya. Till there’s a penalty for lying your ass off and being incontrovertibly wrong about everything, always, and for peddling cynical, passionate stupidity and fauxtrage and working the refs with the dishonesty of false equivalence stops rendering the MSM into puddles of “these-are-not-the-droids-we’re-looking-for” goo who wouldn’t say shit if their mouth was fulluvit, and IOKIYAR perishes inna ignoble but long-overdue Trumpster-fire, ya, can’t imagine any good outcome outta weaponizing the professional propagandists and bullshit-artists anymore’n we gotta suffer the viral spawn of Gorgias in the agora.

  254. 254
    Leto says:

    @PaulWartenberg:

    Leto II is all “Bitch hold my spiced beer”

    Hey hey! You stay out of my special Fishspeaker brewed Arrakis Mélange!

    I got my eye on you…

  255. 255
    Immanentize says:

    @Kay: this is a great description!

    It’s like the steam roller that runs the guy over in the first Austin Powers movie.

  256. 256
    J R in WV says:

    @Yarrow:

    Long time since we heard from you. Glad to see your opinion matches mine, Re: Trump and all his Russo-stained minions. The whole cabinet full of them!

    Don’t be absent so long next time! Tick tock, mother-fuckers!!!

  257. 257
  258. 258
    Ninedragonspot says:

    In the wake of Gates’ plea deal, especially with the bit about lying to the FBI, I wonder what happens to Trump’s potential interview. Will the next hammer to drop be a subpoena to appear before a grand jury?

  259. 259
    Kayla Rudbek says:

    @Jumbo76: shut your lying trap, you nyehkulturny dung-stained troll

  260. 260
    a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio) says:

    @Kay: Because he was a white man in an expensive suit who mingled with the great and the good, rather than a black man who might possibly be selling individual cigarettes on the street. FTFNYT knows what it knows, and so does the rest of the MSM.

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