Why Them? Why Now?

Dalia Lithwick has an interesting piece on why the Stoneman Douglas kids are keeping gun control front and center. She has four reasons, including this one:

4. They Expect to Win
The adults forgot to tell the kids at Stoneman Douglas that they can’t win against the NRA. As Alec MacGillis suggested last week, decades of demoralized fatalism have allowed progressives to persuade themselves that the NRA and Republican interests are too powerful to overcome, causing liberals to give up the fight before it begins. But no one shared this received wisdom with Emma Gonzalez. “If you actively do nothing, people continually end up dead, so it’s time to start doing something,” she said last weekend. That may sound naïve to an older generation of progressives, but it’s also the only possible starting point for changing the terms of the debate. I, for one, am grateful to be reminded of its essential truth.

It’s a really good piece worth reading in full, though I’m interested in hearing what all of you think. See you on March 24.

(via LGM)






87 replies
  1. 1

    I’m rescheduling my post for a little later.

  2. 2
    foucault swing voter mistermix says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Sorry did I stomp on it?

  3. 3
  4. 4
    foucault swing voter mistermix says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Sorry

  5. 5
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Sorry about that and look forward to the reboot. I was really eager to see comments.

  6. 6
    Brachiator says:

    They Expect to Win
    The adults forgot to tell the kids at Stoneman Douglas that they can’t win against the NRA.

    Yep. And when conservatives try to tell them to shut up because they don’t know what they are talking about, their very reasonable response is, “We were the ones who survived the shooting. This is not a theoretical or philosophical debate for us.”

  7. 7
    Mnemosyne says:

    I think it’s important that we have intelligent, articulate survivors of the actual shooting. Not parents or first responders, but the actual survivors. And they. are. PISSED. that the adults around them have repeatedly failed them.

  8. 8
    Betty Cracker says:

    It always seems impossible for a reign of terror to end, until it does.

  9. 9
    Jeffro says:

    It’s a different world – these kids are tech- and social-media-savvy, and they don’t respect adults that lie, and they’re not afraid to call them out on their lies, either. They can’t be bought or cowed.

  10. 10

    why this is happening now:

    we have reached critical mass.

    a combination of inertia from a GOP openly owned by the gun nuts and the ongoing, decades-long pile-up of bodies means we’re at a point where there’s too much of this sh-t piled up.

    we’re at the point where the kids at Stoneman Douglas were getting tips on surviving their mass shooting by other teens who have survived theirs over the last 5-10 years.

    this is the generation that grew up in the shadow of Columbine, forced to go through lockdown drills that their parents never did. just read the articles of stunned parents finally asking their teens what a lockdown drill really is and finding out how horrifying – the lockdown training implies the kids are already dead, they have to throw themselves at the gunmen to merely slow the gunmen down – those drills are.

    These kids are sick of it. they’re sick of the status quo. they’re sick of the NRA being this unstoppable boogeyman that their political leaders can’t control.

    this isn’t a game, or play-acting, or script-reading for our teenagers. THIS IS A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH TO THEM.

    and they’re making damn sure we adults understand that.

  11. 11
    Emerald says:

    This year, maybe just this year, I expect the youth vote actually will show up at the polls.

    And it might be just the training they need eventually to become as dedicated voters as winger evangelicals have been.

    Helluva price to pay for it though.

  12. 12
    rikyrah says:

    Dalia Lithwick has an interesting piece on why the Stoneman Douglas kids are keeping gun control front and center

    These are technological savvy kids who know their way around social media.
    They are right on the issue.
    They are from the right ‘ class’.
    They have a whole lot of folks behind them that have become cynical (Me included), but are willing to back them and cheer them on.
    They are old enough to have their own mind, and articulate their feelings.
    They are right on the issue.

  13. 13

    Eh, we stomp because we love here at BJ. LOL

  14. 14
    Mary G says:

    Wow, that is one great article. Dahlia Lithwick is a heck of a writer, and just keeps getting better and better.

    I am following a lot of the kids on twitter and tweeted back to one who said this:

    to everyone saying we were disrespectful and “bratty”: change doesn’t come by sitting down and shutting up, it comes from speaking out.— lex (@reckIex) February 22, 2018

    I said that MLK had 35% approval rating in his day, and now he has a national holiday in his honor, so they should just keep on keeping on. That was 13 minutes ago, and three of them have already liked my tweet. Not the Emma Gonzalez/David Hogg ones, just three kids from the school.

  15. 15
    Gin & Tonic says:

    This is interesting, from First National Bank of Omaha:

    Customer feedback has caused us to review our relationship with the NRA. As a result, First National Bank of Omaha will not renew its contract with the National Rifle Association to issue the NRA Visa Card.

  16. 16
    randy khan says:

    One of the things that’s most striking is that they properly dismiss arguments about arming teachers, or “hardening” schools, or FBI failure to focus on the central point here, which is that people are using guns to commit these crimes. It’s very impressive.

    I think one fault that older progressives have is that we’re too nuanced. There’s not really much nuance to their argument, and it’s cutting through the clutter as a result. I don’t know if that was a conscious choice or not, but I don’t care – I’m just happy it’s working.

  17. 17
    Raoul says:

    Speaking of winning, I hope teh Googlz will lose something this week for this: They are a fucking Platinum Level sponsor of CPAC.

    Fuck.

    Does anyone else at @Google know why we're apparently sponsoring CPAC but keeping our involvement private? We're not on the CPAC website sponsor list but apparently our logo is there in the venue. https://t.co/zfxwn1FpwW— Hypertrophy Wife (@meat) February 22, 2018

  18. 18
    hitchhiker says:

    The moment I loved best from last night’s CNN thing was the history teacher asking for an answer “with supporting details.” The audience laughed because that is their world. They’re used to having to show their work and accept criticism when they try to fudge.

    That means they know BS when they hear it. The fury and determination they’re showing seems to come from the overwhelming evidence that these people are lying. Lying! In public, and getting away with it!

    Teenagers, as everyone who’s ever been one knows, are absolutists when it comes to issues of fairness and justice. They are not going to let this go.

  19. 19

    @hitchhiker: Rs have been lying about everything guns, immigration, economics, healthcare, you name it. And the MSM will only let us have a debate on R terms.
    Why do we have to refute their lies, let them defend their indefensible positions instead.

  20. 20
    different-church-lady says:

    President says ‘cowards’ won’t enter a school ‘if 20% of the teachers have guns’

    THIS MAN IS AN UTTER FUCKING IDIOT!

  21. 21
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    If Wayne should perish in misery, pain and infamy, I would not be sad.

  22. 22
    different-church-lady says:

    @Gin & Tonic: It’s nice to see Bizzaro World Nazi Germany is not turning out the same way that Actual Nazi Germany did.

  23. 23
    Lapassionara says:

    I do not know how to link, but I recommend an article in The Atlantic by an emergency room physician, who explains the deadliness of the ammunition used during the shooting.

    What the kids experienced was akin to an infantry firefight, and nothing could have prepared them for the dreadful horror of what they experienced.

  24. 24
    John Revolta says:

    “Actively do nothing” is an interesting way to describe it. I like it.

  25. 25
    chris says:

    @Raoul: I noticed one person from Google on the CPAC agenda. Definitely caught my eye but I’m not surprised.

  26. 26
    efgoldman says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    It always seems impossible for a reign of terror to end

    As we’ve noted before, in 1985 who thought there would be no smoking in pretty much any public building or office? Not I, for sure. (That’s the year I turned 40)

  27. 27
    efgoldman says:

    @Jeffro:

    and they’re not afraid to call them out on their lies, either. They can’t be bought or cowed.

    As I said last nite, once you’ve survived a massacre you’re not gonna’ be intimidated by parents, teachers, RWNJs in general, or Ferret Head

  28. 28
    hitchhiker says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I’m not saying we have to refute anything. I’m saying the authentic passion that radiates from the students has to do with their sudden realization that adults are doing what they’ve been getting punished for forever: lying.

    It’s why they’re not cynical … they really didn’t know it was like this until some jerk tried to kill them and they heard adults calling them actors.

  29. 29
    different-church-lady says:

    But no one shared this received wisdom with Emma Gonzalez.

    Being only a lucky break away from violent death does tend to give one perspective, yes.

  30. 30
    Mike J says:

    @TaMara (HFG): Saw a great thread on writing on twitter the other day and thought the writing group might find it interesting. Now I have to find it again. BRB.

  31. 31
    efgoldman says:

    @different-church-lady:

    THIS MAN IS AN UTTER FUCKING IDIOT!

    He has to raise his game to get that high

  32. 32
    Suzanne says:

    @Emerald:

    This year, maybe just this year, I expect the youth vote actually will show up at the polls.

    The thing that concerns me the most w/r/t this is that so many of the kids seem to think (not completely unreasonably) that partisanship is outdated and passé. But if they clearly aligned themselves with one of the parties over the other, they would be far more effective.

  33. 33
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Brachiator: But but but they’re all crisis actors!! Or so Russian bots keep telling me.

    I hope those kids remain strong despite death threats and cynical, NRA-controlled Republicans trying to distract them. They’ll be voters soon which is reassuring.

  34. 34
    randy khan says:

    @different-church-lady:

    President says ‘cowards’ won’t enter a school ‘if 20% of the teachers have guns’

    THIS MAN IS AN UTTER FUCKING IDIOT!

    Yes, he is.

    The notion that school shootings (or any other mass shootings) will be deterred by arming teachers, etc. is bizarre. Most of the people who do these things expect to – actually want to – die. The possibility that someone will shoot back would not be a deterrent.

  35. 35

    @hitchhiker: No, not you, its our media that does that, forces us to refute nonsensical R positions. Arm the teachers, being the latest one.

  36. 36
    efgoldman says:

    @Suzanne:

    But if they clearly aligned themselves with one of the parties over the other, they would be far more effective.

    I dunno. Lettem go to the polls just to vote for Brave, Brave Sir Marco’s opponent. Don’t have to call themselves “Democrats.”
    Later, I hope, we’ll recriuit them.

  37. 37
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Good. The NRA should be treated like any other terrorist group out to kill Americans.

  38. 38

    According to USCIS we are no longer a nation of immigrants, they just purged it from their mission statement.

  39. 39
    Brachiator says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    I hope those kids remain strong despite death threats and cynical, NRA-controlled Republicans trying to distract them. They’ll be voters soon which is reassuring.

    Some, I hope, may even run for office.

  40. 40
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    I just had a thought – the wingnuts are sorely mistaken if they think they can successfully bully high school students on the internet.

    These kids grew up with it, have tough hides from bullying each other, and give better than they get.

  41. 41
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Betty Cracker: When I was in my early 20s, I remember having a discussion with my friend where we mused that our grandchildren would see the end of Apartheid. Imagine my shock when she called me one morning to watch Nelson Mandela walk with his then wife as a free man. Change can come quickly. It just takes determination and courage.

  42. 42
    Penn says:

    They will be voting single-issue. That issue is pretty cleanly divided along party lines.

  43. 43
    Mike J says:

    @Mike J: OK, Moore, Kadrey, Womack talking about plotting tools, then diverging into how pulp mills ran. A fun conversation to watch between pro writers. Make sure you expand all the threads.

  44. 44
    different-church-lady says:

    @randy khan:

    Most of the people who do these things expect to – actually want to – die.

    Exact-fuckin’-lee.

  45. 45
    trollhattan says:

    Poor li’l Marco.

    Thanks for the Lithwick piece, loved this.

    Conservatives prefer their victims silent and passive. When they start to actually evince anger, they are denounced as either lying fabricators (like Rob Porter’s former wives) or “crisis actors” (like the students at Stoneman Douglas High). Unless you are calling for more cops, more guns, more walls, more prisons, and more punishment, you are a nuisance to be derided and denied. And that’s the beauty of the Parkland kids. They don’t care.

  46. 46
    Mike J says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    Change can come quickly.

    Says the guy who didn’t spend 27 years in prison.

    But your larger point is correct. 27 years really is nothing (if you’re not in prison), and after decades of struggle, it often seems to end overnight.

  47. 47
    J R in WV says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Rs have been lying about everything guns, immigration, economics, healthcare, you name it. And the MSM will only let us have a debate on R terms.
    Why do we have to refute their lies, let them defend their indefensible positions instead.

    So good! Everything the Russo-Republicans believe in are lies. Their positions and policies are based upon lies. Their only reality based position is hatred of everyone who disagrees with them, hatred of everyone who believes in the truths the Russo-Republicans despise.

  48. 48

    @schrodingers_cat:

    And the MSM will only let us have a debate on R terms.

    Because of that, the MSM won’t really let us have a debate at all. They suckered themselves letting these kids talk. My personal theory is that in their rarified ‘we are the wise men’ pundit circle, it was obvious that teenagers would be adorable but stupid.

  49. 49
    different-church-lady says:

    @trollhattan:

    And that’s the beauty of the Parkland kids. They don’t care.

    Someone tried to kill them a handful of days ago. Insults and vilification are NOTHING compared to that.

  50. 50
    Aleta says:

    Raise teacher salaries.

    If Republicans want teachers to be a first line of defense, hire teachers to replace police chiefs. Hire teachers to create coursework for police training. Require security companies to hire teachers as consultants with oversight power. Get Trump a tutor and give him televised weekly exams.

  51. 51
    AkaDad says:

    I don’t think we should start sucking each others dicks yet, but this does feel like a tipping point.

  52. 52
    trollhattan says:

    @Mary G:
    Piggybacking on your MLK “unpopularity” numbers, I was almost literally shocked off my sofa when the “Vietnam” series noted well more than half of Americans polled said the Kent State victims deserved it. These kids need to know and understand that. American patience and sympathies have very short half-lives.

  53. 53
    Ohio Mom says:

    I’m guessing these kids have a fair amount of organizational experience: they’re in school clubs and on committees, they’ve participated in fundraisers, they’ve performed either in the band or choir or with the drama club. They’ve written for the school paper, and traveled with the sports teams.

    They have lots of the sorts of skills you need to create and lead a movement.

  54. 54

    @Frankensteinbeck: Their arguments are an affront to both logic and decency, on the gun issue and any issue. But MSM will start from the Republican (RWNJ) premise as the conventional wisdom. I am sure NPR and PBS will seriously intone about arming teachers.

  55. 55
    trollhattan says:

    @Ohio Mom:
    They sure know and understand media, if my home model is at all representative. The leathery carcasses running the GOP and NRA have little concept of this fact, even if they hire squadrons of Young Republicans for their yout’ outreach.

  56. 56
    jl says:

    Thanks for the link, i think it’s a good article that makes some good points.

    I was a little pissed at some reporting of the movement that seems subtly dismissive of the student efforts. One bigshot corporate news media celeb, whose name escapes me now, always managed to make a point that the movement doesn’t seem to have any concrete proposals or program, and he started with this BS just as the movement was starting right after the shooting. I think that was a ridiculous and snotty point to emphasize. People are getting shot down en masse on a regular basis, kids are reminded of this fact on a regular basis all over the country when they have to waste time on shooter response drills. They want something done about it, and it is a very important issue with them, and signs are that it will stay important to them. That should be more than enough to take it seriously.

    There is only so much that can humanly be done about fires, earthquakes, tornadoes and flash floods. There is something that can be done about random anybodies getting their hands on military grade weapons in a few minutes with no questions asked, that can be used for mass murder in a few seconds. So, do something about it.

  57. 57
    Bostonian says:

    “If you actively do nothing, people continually end up dead, so it’s time to start doing something” reminds me of the widespread youth protest of the Vietnam war.

    Peak American service fatalities in Vietnam were around 16,899 in 1968. Peak firearm homicides in the US were in 1993, with a number around 16,000. Firearm death in the US is holding around 10K annually, which is more than all but three years of the Vietnam conflict.

    US gun ownership poses a greater threat to today’s kids than Vietnam did.

  58. 58
    Ksmiami says:

    Abolish the nra – go after them as a Rico conspirator in money laundering and murder. To defeat them, we need a two pronged attack; let the kids be the external image and get the irs and fbi checking the countertops and the money funnel on this terrorist organization

  59. 59
    smintheus says:

    When the kids wear self-designed T shirts that reference BS, we can be certain that they really are fed up with all the BS.

    It’s not just that these particular kids have survived a battle-field like assault with no protection. It’s that they had already gone through umpteen active-shooter drills in their schools preparing them for the eventuality of a battle-field like assault. The adults asked them over and over again throughout their lives to accept responsibility for saving themselves from a brutal attack that the adults know is all too common; but the adults did nothing meanwhile to lesson the chance of that brutal attack or to protect the kids when the anticipated attack should occur.

    That’s why the kids in Florida and everywhere else have no more patience for BS. Neither should anyone. The Supreme Court ruled way back in the 1950s that schools are obligated legally to protect students from attacks, and that the standard excuse “But it’s too hard!” is not valid.

    Nobody gets to tell kids that they have to attend school but it’s their problem if that school is dangerous.

  60. 60
    Brachiator says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    I am sure NPR and PBS will seriously intone about arming teachers.

    Let’s see what happens. If NPR and PBS actually take this stance, they will continue to lose whatever credibility they pretend to have.

  61. 61
    joel hanes says:

    Something you can do now: tell the non-arms companies that collaborate with the NRA that they are about to lose your business.

    https://actions.sumofus.org/a/nra-sponsorship

  62. 62
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @randy khan: Many, maybe most Republicans, and the vast majority of “gun rights” people, fantasize about killing people. They want to be able to kill people. They want everyone else to be afraid, either of them, or of Bad Guys, who the killing-fantasists want to kill so that the rest of us will regret having doubted them. Trump wants to kill people or at least to be responsible for Bad Guys being killed. They’re disgusting, paranoid, reprehensible people, and they like being that way, and that’s who that party represents and fosters.

  63. 63

    @Brachiator: Whory Woodruff, totally blamed “both sides” and Congress for the failure to do anything about Dreamers last week.

    ETA: Apologies to actual sex workers, Woodruff is the quintessential both-sider. I had it with her when she did a fawning interview with Ernst, when she was running for Senate in Iowa.

  64. 64
    smintheus says:

    @Bostonian: More American civilians have been killed with guns since Ronald Reagan’s presidency than were killed serving in the US military in World War Two. And my parents’ generation got a lot of training before they went into battle, and also had things like close air support.

  65. 65
    randy khan says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    The top tier of involved students in high school have to be really good at organizing things. The yearbook doesn’t happen if the editor doesn’t have her act together; the newspaper doesn’t come out if the staff can’t keep a schedule, etc., etc. And on top of that, organizing a teenage social life could be a full time job for most adults. It is no surprise to me that they have their act together.

  66. 66
    Barbara says:

    Learned helplessness is a real thing. When it comes to gun control, most of us have learned not to fight back, but channel our energy to something that is more likely to succeed. I am more than willing to pass the baton to people whose outrage is fresh and undiscouraged by prior losses.

  67. 67
    trollhattan says:

    Hi NRA, do not invoke or fvck with Lesley Knope. Or April, or Ron. Thanks, bye.

  68. 68
    Ohio Mom says:

    @trollhattan: Yes, they know things I can’t fathom (Snapchat being one personal example). Kids have always had a folk tradition going, handing down lore and skills orally and informally, and now it includes everything you can do on a phone or a tablet.

  69. 69
    retiredeng says:

    I hope not. But there’s a very high chance of another school attack in the near future. The impact of that and subsequent ones will amplify it to the heavens. These fine young men and women are the vanguard.

  70. 70
    Brachiator says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    I just had a thought – the wingnuts are sorely mistaken if they think they can successfully bully high school students on the internet.

    These kids grew up with it, have tough hides from bullying each other, and give better than they get.

    Very true. Some kids are masters of social media, which has been tailored to their tastes, needs and preferences. The Internet is in some ways these kids weapon of choice. It is so much fun watching them use it against the dopes.

  71. 71
    M31 says:

    @smintheus:

    and also had things like close air support.

    OK now there’s the solution right there — armed drones and/or attack helicopters in the air above every school at all times.

  72. 72
    Jeffro says:

    32 more counts against Manafort and Gates.

    Russiagate is going to keep us all busy for frickin’ YEARS…

  73. 73
    Tom Q says:

    There are advantages and disadvantages to being so young you have limited political memory. In 2016, I think too many younger voters were persuaded Hillary Clinton was a crypto-racist for supporting the 1994 Crime Bill — because they had no memory of the context: the crime rate that had been rising for decades (and killing Dems at the polls). You can certainly argue the results of the Crime Bill, but to portray all support for it as neo-fascist was ridiculous — but enough younger voters bought into it that it may have cost Hillary at the polls.

    The flip side is, these younger voters also have no recollection of the Brady Bill and Assault Weapons Ban — Clinton administration initiatives that made some of us, at the time, feel like the NRA was finally losing its power. So they also don’t recall the rude slap we all received in the 1994 elections, where Dems lost control of the House for the first time in 40 years, and those anti-NRA bills were give much of the blame. Again, we can argue whether that was true (I always thought NAFTA might have played a more emphatic role, but the press loved NAFTA, so that possibility was never really broached); what’s not arguable is, that electoral shock made a generation of Dems think of gun bills as a third rail they had no intention of ever touching again.

    The problem with such learned behavior is, it can persist long past the efficacy of the threat. The country is FAR more left-leaning now than it was in 1994 (current freakish electoral results notwithstanding), and there’s every reason to believe a renewed campaign against the ubiquity of guns would not have the same outcome. Yet some Dem veterans have trouble getting past that memory, and have been reluctant to act, which has combined with NRA total resistance to create our current situation. It takes a generation whose PTSD is real and not electorally-simulated to change that gestalt, and these kids seem on their way to achieving that.

  74. 74
    John Revolta says:

    Change can come quickly

    @Mike J: Perhaps we should say suddenly.

  75. 75
    NotMax says:

    @Tom Q

    Also too (although barely ever mentioned), the House Post Office scandal.

  76. 76
    Brachiator says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Whory Woodruff, totally blamed “both sides” and Congress for the failure to do anything about Dreamers last week.

    But this is manifestly false. Other people on the program let this idiocy stand?

    In any event, look at where we are now. On health care, Trump promised to repeal and replace Obamacare with something better. He lied and he and the GOP scrambled to cover their ass. Trump has again put himself out front by promising to do something substantial about guns. Of course, he has responded in part with some weak and stupid bullshit and is obviously trying to contain any movement toward significant gun control.

    These high school kids are ahead of the opposition on this. It will be more difficult for the Republicans to mislead the citizens with their standard bullshit. We already see how strident and ridiculous the NRA and its apologists are looking.

    ETA: I’m seeing a breaking news story from CNN that Mueller is filing new charges against Manafort and Gates. What fun.

  77. 77
    Repatriated says:

    One other factor: The GOP and the NRA are joined at the hip, and provide cover for each other. Right now, the GOP is at a low point in its ablity to project moral authority (Trump et al), which it would otherwise be able to deploy to support the NRA’s position.

    This provided the opening. The massacre provided the focal point.

  78. 78

    @Brachiator: She reported it as straight news, in the headline section. She is the NewsHour anchor. When she did the entire piece she did give all the gory details.

  79. 79
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @M31: we had to destroy the school to save it.

  80. 80
    ksmiami says:

    I say we target every single person who works at the NRA – make them toxic, shame them, follow them, use the anti-abortionist gambit and tape pictures of the real victims of gun violence on their cars. With linked in it would not be hard to mobilize against them.

  81. 81
    frosty says:

    @Lapassionara: I’ve never been in the infantry or a firefight, so I can’t say if it’s like that. What it does remind me of is the scene in Terminator where the door busts open and the humans are in a fight for their lives. Our schools are turning into a dystopian movie. With real blood.

  82. 82
    J R in WV says:

    I agree that the NRA should be carefully investigated, fine tooth comb, by the IRS and the FBI. If they accepted funds from foreign sources that they in turn used in American elections, GUILTY.

    If they are guilty of eliding any of the fine lines of legality, RICO should be used to bankrupt the organization and it’s leadership, From Wayne the Peter (aka laPierre) through the board of directors. Anyone who knew or should have known of the illegal actions taken by any employee of the NRA should be bankrupted.

    This is a Terrorist organization responsible for thousands of deaths in the US every year, far more deadly an organization than Osama bin Laden ever was. It needs to be put down, along with all its accessories before and after the fact. If that sweeps in some senior Republicans, then good!

  83. 83
    Ksmiami says:

    @J R in WV: all 1100 employees of the nra have profiles on linked in…

  84. 84
    Chet Murthy says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while):

    If Wayne should perish live many, many years in unendurable misery, pain and infamy, I would not be sad.

    FTFY. I’m rooting for herpes zoster.

  85. 85
    Chet Murthy says:

    @Suzanne: Suzanne, with respect, b/c you’ve always had good thoughts to share, I’m not sure you’re right about this. Or, more precisely, I think the kids basically -are- siding with the Dems, by their public stand. Look at the way they said “you take $$ from the NRA, we’re gonna name-and-shame you”. That’s -effectively- siding with the Dems, but in a way that is much, much more difficult to attack. If they side with the Dems, they get attacked for the “homosexual /muslim/illegal-alien/tax-and-spend agenda”. All that shit.

    Also, these are -kids-. I didn’t realize the GrOPers were moral shitstains until I was in -college-, ffs. They’re growing up fast, and we should cut them some slack. Especially, especially, since on the key issue, they’re getting it right. No compromises with the murderers’ accomplices. And as I said *operationally* I see no difference between their stand, and the one you’re advocating.

    There is NO WAY the GrOPers are gonna disavow the NRA.

  86. 86

    3/24 is on the calendar, circled in red.

  87. 87
    Another Scott says:

    Dead thread, but an interesting article at RawStory: Thom Hartmann – The Second Amendment was ratified to preserve slavery.

    It’s nice to have all that evidence in one place. (It was originally on Alternet.)

    Cheers,
    Scott.

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