The Right To Teach And Bear Arms

Earlier today the President, while meeting with the survivors and surviving family members of school shootings, suggested that the solution was to arm the teachers.

President Donald Trump said Wednesday that having more people armed at schools could prevent future mass shootings.

“I think it could very well solve your problem,” he said.

After hearing the devastating stories from parents and young people affected by gun massacres at schools, Trump pointed to the example of Stoneman Douglas football coach Aaron Feis, who was reportedly killed by the alleged gunman last week after Feis threw himself in front of students to protect them from the gunfire.

“If the coach had a firearm in his locker when he ran at this guy — that coach was very brave, saved a lot of lives I suspect — but if he had a firearm, he wouldn’t have had to run, he would have shot and that would have been the end of it,” Trump said.

“Gun-free zone, to a maniac — because they’re all cowards — a gun-free zone is ‘Let’s go in and let’s attack, because bullets aren’t coming back at us,” Trump said, wondering aloud about arming “20 percent of your teaching force.”

“You can’t have 100 security guards in Stoneman Douglas, that’s a big school,” he said. “It’s a massive school with a lot of acreage to cover, a lot of floor area, so that would be certainly a situation that is being discussed a lot by a lot of people.”

“You’d have a lot of people that’d be armed, that’d be ready, they are professionals, they may be Marines that left the Marines, left the Army, left the Air Force, and they are very adept at doing that. You’d have a lot of them and they would be spread evenly through the school.”

The President said he believed “that if these cowards knew that the school was well-guarded from the standpoint of having pretty much professionals with great training, I think they wouldn’t go into the school to start off with.”

“I think it could very well solve your problem,” he said.

“So we’ll be doing the background checks, we’ll be doing a lot of different things, but we’ll certainly be looking at ideas like that.”

Given how the President positioned himself during his campaign regarding guns and the 2nd Amendment, that he received the earliest endorsement and largest amount of monetary support from the NRA, and his previous statements about armed self defense, this is not particularly surprising. Especially because it is an article of faith amongst the 2nd Amendment absolutist community that arming teachers in specific, and doing away with gun free zones, such as schools, in general, would significantly decrease violence and crime in the US.

Someone even took this picture from Israel and turned it into a factually inaccurate meme to support this argument.

The “RIP Children of Newtown” on the bottom is a nice touch. You can’t find bespoke smarm like that just anywhere.

There’s one problem with holding Israel out as an example of how to protect American students and schools: school teachers ARE NOT armed in Israeli schools! Except, perhaps, in some of the West Bank* settlements. And the picture in this meme isn’t of an Israeli school or an Israeli school teacher. Rather it is of a group of Israelis students on a field trip in Acre (aka Akko), Israel. And the woman fiddling with her purse strap with the rifle slung over her back is a paid security guard, not a teacher. They are required for all field trips and school outings in Israel.

Here are the details about the picture:

There is a picture going around the Internet that I have seen about a dozen times today that claims that Israeli teachers are packing heat. Well, are they? The answer is “NO.” There may be some exceptions in dangerous areas like the West Bank (where five percent of Israelis live), but in general, Israeli teachers are not walking around like it’s the Wild Wild West, strapped with a six shooter. No, our teachers are not focused on shooting, but educating. That doesn’t mean, however, that we don’t protect young students.

In the picture, the students are on an outing. While it appears that the teacher is holding a rifle, I have never seen such a thing in ten years of living here. Rest assured however, they are under armed protection. In most cases it is an armed guard or a soldier that will accompany a class, not the teacher. And my guess is that the woman with the gun is a security guard, not a teacher.

Secondly, they are not armed in the classroom. Is that really the image you want to imprint on the minds of six-year-olds? (That would be Hamas) On the other hand. I have never seen a school in Israel that was not fenced in. You must go through a locked gate that is guarded by an armed shomer, a security guard. He or she, on the other hand, is not concerned with educating, but protecting. He or she will ask you why you are there? “What is your child’s name?” “Show me your I.D. card.” And he or she would not let you bring a weapon inside.

These types of massacres don’t seem to happen here for other reasons as well. Despite the stereotype of Israel being a violent nation, it is a million times (slight exaggeration) easier to get a weapon in the US than it is in Israel. Gun Control laws are very strict here.

Israel’s approach to school security is not what the armed intelligentsia thinks it is (emphasis mine).

As we travelled the streets of Tel-Aviv, my mind turned to stories I’d heard of how there are soldiers securing every school and school bus in Israel. I quickly learned after observing a school from the street and making inquiries of our police escort that this was not the case. It is correct that they do indeed have armed security in every school and that an officer is very visible. All the security officers working in the schools are under the guidance of the Israel police, and the standards are high. Unannounced drills are frequent to test operational readiness.

Regarding school buses, there is no such thing in Israel. Any child not walking or being taken to school rides on public transportation. Now, very often there is an armed IDF soldier on the bus, yet this is happenstance and not by design. When there is a heavily attended school field trip, contracted IDF soldiers, police or armed security officers provide the escort for the group.

The Israel schools have assessed the threats and acted accordingly to address them. They have heavy fencing around them to prevent suicide bombers from entering their grounds and buildings, and fences are erected high enough so that anyone trying to lob some explosive device over the top would have a hard time accomplishing the act.

The Israeli “SRO” does not handle law enforcement functions as do many of us within our country. Their function is solely a preventive counter-terror measure to deter, engage if necessary and neutralize a threat.

By all accounts that I received, issues with Israeli school children committing acts that are considered crimes are very rare. Even when this does occur, these events are handled by the school’s headmaster. This is a considerable difference between our style and theirs because as much as we don’t enjoy saying it, American kids can and do commit criminal acts on campus that are sometimes horrendous. This is an unfortunate fact that we face daily as campus police or armed security in our schools. This is life in the United States.

Israel’s example has very little to tell anyone in the US about the 2nd Amendment or how we should understand the enumerated rights within it in a 21st Century context, much less the original late 18th Century one. In order to own a firearm in Israel one must be licensed and there is a strict limit on the amount of ammunition one can own. Quite simply, there is no enumerated right to a firearm, let alone to keep and bear arms in the Israeli Basic Laws (the Israeli constitution). This isn’t a knock on Israel, they just have a different approach so comparisons aren’t going to be particularly helpful.

In fact the Israeli firearm ownership reality is very different from that in the US.

Two types of people have guns in Israel: Soldiers and those with licensesMentally unstable people don’t have guns—and thus, don’t shoot people. And it is not as easy to steal a gun as it is in the US. When you are drafted you go through mental tests to see if there are any red flags. If so, you will be discharged or placed in an area where you would never see a rifle.

Only those with the rank of Captain or Lieutenant Colonel for at least two years can qualify to own a gun after the army. And those who do have guns are taught to guard them carefully. For soldiers who take their weapons home, it must be on their persons at all times or under lock and key.

Losing a weapon will get you a jail sentence, as my wife’s childhood friend, Moti, found out two decades ago. He left his gun in his car because he was just running into a mini-mart. He came back and the gun was gone. He spent six months in jail and God only knows where that gun ended up.

Hunting is not popular in Israel, so it would be rare to see someone with five or six hunting rifles and therefore, neither would their son, who spends ten hours a day playing mortal combat, have access to them.

Assault rifles are banned in Israel, except in areas where there is a security risk such as the West Bank.

Glynn County School District Chief of Police Rod Ellis provides support for this recounting of the facts about Israel and firearms.

There are a lot of ideas in the United States of what Israel is like. For example, I’d always heard that Israel is an armed society, and virtually everyone routinely carries a weapon. I learned quickly from one of our guides that although the private ownership of firearms in Israel is not forbidden, those not employed in public safety, security or in the military must show a legitimate need to possess a firearm and must have a permit. Examples include being a civilian, yet being a target of a specific credible threat, such as a retired member of the Israel Defense Force (IDF) or police officer, or a person serving as a reservist. With 20% of Israel’s budget going to defense and security, and 80% of the nation’s defense force being reservists, one can comfortably calculate that a significant portion of the public owns a firearm but don’t routinely carry one.

As I wrote way back in 2015, there is almost nothing any other society can teach the US about the 2nd Amendment, what it means, or how we should do about it. Not 1930s and 1940s Germany, not Israel in 2018. And not any other state and society in between. While Mexico and Guatemala also include a right to keep and bear arms in their constitutions, both of these states interpret and apply this enumerated right very differently than in the US. As a result the US is really the only state with an enumerated right pertaining to keeping and bearing arms in the national foundational law that also officially interprets that right broadly. In this the US is quite unique, exceptional if you will, in that it is the exception, and as such it is very, very difficult to draw effective comparisons from how any other state and society approaches these issues. There are, however, plenty of contrasts that could be made.

Finally, the President’s instructions to the DOJ to develop a regulation that bans bump stocks is most likely dead on arrival. The reason for this is that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) has repeatedly stated that they do not believe they have the authority under existing laws pertaining to firearms to impose such a restriction.

The head of the federal agency tasked with regulating firearms said Wednesday it does not have direct authority to regulate or ban bump stocks ― devices that allow semi-automatic weapons to function like machine guns ― but is looking into whether can reclassify them as firearms to regulate them under existing law.

The review is likely to take months, however, and it’s unclear whether the agency can impose restrictions on firearm accessories without aid from Congress.

“If that wasn’t a possibility, in the end, we wouldn’t initiate the process,” ATF Acting Director Thomas Brandon told lawmakers at a Senate Judiciary Committee hearing on Wednesday.

But Brandon conceded it was equally possible for the agency to complete its monthslong review, which includes a 30-day public comment period, and come to the conclusion that it cannot regulate the devices without an update in federal law. The admission prompted one Republican senator to suggest a legislative solution instead.

Stay frosty!

Open thread!

* Tour groups that go to the West Bank are required to have an armed security guard with them, as well as a properly trained and certified medic. Often they are the same person.

Upadated at 8:35 PM EST:

There is a President Trump tweet for everything!

298 replies
  1. 1
    Baud says:

    I can’t believe the right wing misrepresented the truth.

  2. 2
    Bill says:

    I posted this in the open, thread, but it didn’t catch. Try it here.

    So today I delivered a scissor lift, one of those things you see electricians working from when they’re putting fixtures or boxes in up high in a building. We have a couple of 19 foot lifts, which is to say they’ll put your feet at 19′ above the floor, so a working height of 25 feet. One of the summer camps up the road needed our 26′ lift, which is a pain in the ass because it won’t fit through a standard 80″ door opening because it’s so tall. You have to fold the safety cage down to get it into the building, and then re-unfold it once inside. Not a huge deal, but a pain. Once in the building, a big rec hall, it becomes clear why they need the big lift, the ceiling is HIGH. Like higher than you’d think from the outside of the building, and they’ve got all these colorful banners up in the rafters. “What are those, plywood panels, or textile, or what” I ask. “Canvases.” says the guy. “The campers and the counselors paint them at the end of the summer to commemorate each season at camp.” “Wow” I say, “They’re great, so colorful, and such variety; very interesting”.

    “We have to take a couple down, for a memorial service” says the guy. “One of our long-time counselors died last week. That’s why we need the lift.”

    “Oh, crap, I’m sorry. That’s terrible. I’m really sorry to hear that.” I said. I don’t know the people at this camp that well. It’s one of the nicer ones, but way up the road, like an hour drive. Still, you feel a little bad. Even from the maintenance guy, a sense of real sadness. “What did he do the rest of the year, when he wasn’t here?”

    “He was a teacher at that school in Florida.”

  3. 3
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Baud:

  4. 4
    efgoldman says:

    After hearing the devastating stories from parents and young people affected

    “Hearing” =/= “listening.”
    He doesn’t know, or care to how

  5. 5
    Ohio Mom says:

    We were in Israel 18 years ago — just before the collapse of Oslo — and seeing young people home from the army strolling down the street with their friends, carrying their guns slung over their shoulders ever so casually, gave me the willies. All that firepower so close to me made me very uncomfortable.

  6. 6
    Corner Stone says:

    The “RIP Children of Newtown”is an especially excellent touch to this farce.

  7. 7
    Adam L Silverman says:

    I just updated with this. There is a tweet from the President for everything!

  8. 8
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Yeah, you may be right about that picture, but its better to arm all of those kids anyway.

    You know, redundancy is better than skill.

    /s

  9. 9
    Mnemosyne says:

    Our own celticdragonchick got quoted by James Fallows on The Atlantic’s website today on being both a teacher and an Army vet.

  10. 10
    Sab says:

    OT re guns, but when I briefly lived in rural Israel in the early nineties (northern Negev) all the junior and senior high school kids went to 5 day boarding schools and only came home on weekends.

    Somehow I can’t see RWNJ American parents going for that.

  11. 11
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Bill: Ugh!

    The ugh isn’t directed at you.

  12. 12

    Quite simply, there is no enumerated right to a firearm, let alone to keep and bear arms in the Israeli Basic Laws (the Israeli constitution). This isn’t a knock on Israel

    No, it’s a compliment.

  13. 13
    Gin & Tonic says:

    My daughter is a union thug public school teacher in Maryland. She’s never held a firearm in her life, and I suspect she’d quit if that became an expectation.

  14. 14
    Baud says:

    @Adam L Silverman: America will never live down how badly we treated her.

  15. 15
    germy says:

    Wait… does drump really have “45” embroidered on his cuffs, or was someone joking with photoshop?

  16. 16
    Bill says:

    @Adam L Silverman: He was the geography teacher that opened his door and rushed the kids from the hallway into his classroom. He was shot while he was saving kids.

  17. 17
    Sab says:

    OT re guns, but when I briefly lived in rural Israel in the early nineties (northern Negev) all the junior and senior high school kids went to 5 day boarding schools and only came home on weekends.

    Somehow I can’t see RWNJ American parents going for that.

    @Bill: It caught. I didn’t comment on it but I read it aloud to my husband, who groaned with sadness.

  18. 18

    The expectation that teachers be armed and be trained to kill is ludicrous and plain stupid.

  19. 19
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ohio Mom: But those are actually off duty Israeli military personnel. They are required to carry their rifles with them wherever they go.

  20. 20
    JPL says:

    @germy: Nope it’s real, cuz it’s who he is.

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @Bill: Damn.

  22. 22
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes she did. Well done! Slainte!

  23. 23
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Bill: Wow. The way you told that story, with the big build up about equipment, was very powerful. The little irritations of our lives vs. coming face to face with a murder.

  24. 24
  25. 25
    Bill says:

    @Sab: Yeah, I’ve had something in my eye since about 3pm. My wife is a teacher, and her school did their lockdown drill today.

  26. 26
    beth says:

    What happens to the teachers’ guns at the end of the day? Do they take them home? Are we going to buy gun safes for these teachers? If the guns stay locked up all night at the school are we now going to pay for all night security to guard those guns just sitting there all night? Everyone talks about the cost during the day but there’s quite a bit of cost for after school too. The whole thing is just ridiculous. Even if it somehow got taken seriously they would never spend that kind of money on schools. It shouldn’t even be discussed.

  27. 27
    germy says:

    Jeffrey Toobin made a stupid comment to the effect of “Arm teachers?? Do you remember your teachers??”

    (Meaning remember how horrible your teachers were.)

    The New Yawker pays him well for this, incidentally.

  28. 28

    @schrodingers_cat:

    ludicrous and plain stupid

    Par for the Trump golf course, then.

  29. 29
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: Probably cuff links. Do you have a link to a picture?

  30. 30
    Bill says:

    @Ohio Mom: That’s just how it happened. Just going about business, small talk with someone you don’t know but can relate to, and then the air just whooshes out of the room.

  31. 31
    germy says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Also, the president appears to have embroidered "45" on his shirt cuffs pic.twitter.com/f5gCJA0Mnb— David Mack (@davidmackau) February 21, 2018

  32. 32
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: Armed guards are a different story than armed teachers, principles, administrative staff, coaching staff, etc.

  33. 33

    @germy: god, I don’t even know what to say to that except aghhhh!

  34. 34
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: Thanks. Also, here’s his list of questions to ask:

  35. 35
    Mnemosyne says:

    @germy:

    To be fair, we had commenters saying the same thing earlier. One of them remembered their art teacher going nuts and hurling wooden palettes at the students when he got fed up with them.

  36. 36
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @germy: Maybe they’re not sure he’ll remember this the 45th president without a reminder.

  37. 37
    JPL says:

    @NotMax: Most schools can’t even afford to keep tissues in stock, so it’s interesting that they can afford ammo. Maybe next year on the list of supplies will be ammo.

  38. 38
    Bill says:

    @beth: It’s completely ridiculous, both on its face and for reasons. Adam will hopefully chime in, but my understanding is that police officers and soldiers, in general, are highly unlikely to hit much with a pistol while under stress. My nephew is Marine Recon, and my brother is SF-adjacent; both have been taught to shoot under stress, but 11B infantry guys and cops just aren’t going to be able to hit much while the adrenaline is going, never mind teachers. My wife is a wonderful teacher, but she can’t sing very well. She shoots even worse.

  39. 39
    Sab says:

    @Bill: Our 17 year old granddaughter had a lockdown drill today also. She’s at an urban school so probably OK.

    ETA Okay from school shooters. She has had a number of classmates killed in random teen shootings around town. And has several times seen cops pull guns on her harmless father as he was just living his life.

  40. 40
    NotMax says:

    @Adam L. Silverman

    Would have expected embroidery spelling out ‘left’ and ‘right.’

  41. 41
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This is an excellent thread.

  42. 42
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Emmy Bengtson @EmmyA2

    Barack Obama sang “amazing grace” at a funeral in Charleston and Donald Trump needs a fucking cheat card to show empathy. (photo)

    3:32 PM – Feb 21, 2018

  43. 43
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I know they are. And maybe someone else would feel reassured that a highly-trained armed soldier was walking on the same sidewalk — or was in front of them in the Carmel Market, helping his dad out at the family fruit stand (that was entertaining to watch, dad and lad were clearly enjoying being reunited).

    But I have never had anything to do with guns, and they make the hair on the back of my neck stand on edge. (It didn’t occur to me at the time that the guns might not be loaded.)

    If I was a elementary school student and my teacher had a gun, I couldn’t concentrate on my lessons.

  44. 44
    Corner Stone says:

    @JPL: A lot of police depts can’t afford to purchase enough ammo for training.

  45. 45

    I keep looking at Trump’s shirt cuff. Does that say 45?

  46. 46
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Someone brought up a good point that I never noticed before – Drumpf doesn’t wear a wedding ring. (photo)

    Now imagine the firestorm if a Dem never wore a wedding ring.

  47. 47
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Yes, it does. Classy, huh?

  48. 48
    germy says:

    @Mnemosyne: Tobbin would be funnier if teachers hadn’t been killed.

  49. 49
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    How would schools afford them? The ammo? What weapons would they be outfitted with? And wouldn’t more kids be shot potentially in shootouts?

  50. 50
    Sab says:

    @Ohio Mom: I was on a bus in Beersheva when a young soldier got on, accidentally dropped his Uzi and it rattled down the steps and fell onto the pavement. Everyone on the bus but me and the soldier burst out laughing. So apparently they all knew it wasn’t loaded.

  51. 51
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):
    It does.

  52. 52
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Funny story. When they were prepping me for surgery last year, the instructions had said “no jewelry.” I figured, yeah, whatever, my wedding ring is on my left hand, and they’re operating on the right, so I’ll just ignore that. They were serious. I had not taken my wedding ring off in longer than I could remember. They got it off, but man, it was a hell of a struggle.

  53. 53
    Suburban Mom says:

    @Gin & Tonic: My kid is an SLP in a couple of San Diego charter schools. I expect that she would also quit.

  54. 54
  55. 55
    Baud says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Surgeons will steal anything not nailed down.

  56. 56
    Kay says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):

    It does. He pretty much ruined it with his Fox and Friends idiocy.

    I hope one of these adults asks the students if they want their schools turned into high security prisons.

    Wasn’t this supposed to be some kind of exchange of ideas? Why is the big blowhard pushing his self-serving agenda at the forum the students organized?

  57. 57
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Baud: Good point. Those Porsches are expensive.

  58. 58
    SFAW says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):

    I keep looking at Trump’s shirt cuff. Does that say 45?

    Yes. Because he needs to keep reminding himself (and everyone else) how “smart” he is, so he had his IQ embroidered on his cuffs.

  59. 59
    japa21 says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Same thing happened to me 10 years ago when I had neck surgery. Delayed the surgery by at least 10 minutes.

  60. 60
    germy says:

    Can anyone report on the CNN discussion with Dana Loesch? How is it going?

  61. 61

    @Adam L Silverman: Leaving the technicalities aside, what if teachers don’t want to become trained killers?

  62. 62
    JPL says:

    @germy: Marco is saying nice things

    pretty much bullshit

  63. 63
    SFAW says:

    @japa21:

    Same thing happened to me 10 years ago when I had neck surgery.

    You had your wedding ring around your neck? Kinky, I guess, but I’m a little confused.

  64. 64
    Ohio Dad says:

    @Adam L Silverman: It’s interesting to note that soldiers in Israel do not carry arms while on base. Only the equivalent of Military Police are armed on base. I suppose that off-duty, uniformed soldiers are viewed as prime targets of terrorists and are therefore required to carry.

  65. 65
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @schrodingers_cat:
    Exactly. What if an entire school refuses? Or students and their parents reject it?

  66. 66
    Baud says:

    @JPL: To or about whom?

  67. 67
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @beth: I had lunch with a good friend yesterday. He’s a retired music teacher. He was also in the Army a long, long time ago. He says he used to bring this up all the time when the topic would be brought up as a possible policy change.
    1) Who pays for the guns?
    2) Who pays for the ammo?
    3) Who pays for the safety equipment – retention holsters, spare magazines and magazine pouches or speed loaders or speed strips (if you’re a revolver aficionado), safes, etc.
    4) Who pays for the conceal carry licenses/concealed weapons permits?
    5) Who pays for the liability insurance?
    6) Who pays for the training?
    7) Who pays for the quarterly tactical training? And by tactical training I mean low light, no light, moving targets, one armed, one armed weak hand, combat reloads, after being knocked to the ground, multiple attackers, disambiguation of targets from non targets, shoot house training, training against live fire using simunitions, how to clear a room, etc.

    Sure, you can get a decent, reliable handgun – pistol or revolver – for $500 to $600 dollars. And a box of self defense ammo for about $20 depending on caliber. But this doesn’t mean you’re ready to use a firearm in a self defense situation.

    I came to the use of firearms as a tool that I might have to use for work late. I was 37. I’d gone to range with friends from the dojo a couple of times. I’d had a hunter safety course at camp when I was 11. But it wasn’t until I went to work for the Army in an operational, small team capacity that this became something I needed to develop proficiency in fast and then mastery over time. During my and my team’s train up, I arranged for and paid out of my own pocket for additional training with the M9 (Beretta 92FS) and the M4 rifle, though for training purposes I was using a carbine length AR-15 rifle. Since I’ve been deployable every year since my first one, and have actually volunteered to go back downrange three or four times, I have made sure to get to mastery. As a result I probably sure 5,000 to 10,000 rounds a year between pistol and rifle training. I treat it like a martial art. And I go for no less than twice yearly tactical training with a close friend who is a SWAT sniper and law enforcement tactical, including tactical firearms, instructor. I am fortunate that I have the resources, both time and money, to pursue mastery as I don’t want to be a danger to myself or to anyone I’m working with should I deploy and should I have to use my duty weapons. This is a professional responsibility for me based on the chance that I might deploy again some time in the future. And as such I approach firearms and firearms proficiency much differently than most.

  68. 68
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Literally the worst idea I’ve ever heard.

    1. Students or other bad actors will steal the school guns.
    2. Funding for these guns will come from things students actually need.
    3. Teachers have enough on their plate with lesson plans and grading papers without adding military training.
    4. Training teachers to view students as possible threats to eliminate is not conducive to good teaching.
    5. Conditioning students to view teachers as people who might literally end their lives is not conducive to good learning.
    6. Teachers are under a lot of stress and no less likely than anyone else to have a psychotic break.
    7. People who are ready to kill others don’t usually go into teaching. Nor do we want teaching to be filled with the George Zimmermans of the world.
    8. Black kids get murdered enough outside of school. No need to arm people and give them an excuse to bring the murdering into school.
    9. Killing a student will cause lifelong psychological damage to everyone in the room.
    10. Failing to save the lives of students will cause lifelong psychological damage to a teacher.
    11. Teachers don’t deserve to carry that kind of responsibility because politicians are too gutless to keep guns out of schools in the first place.
    12. The Secret Service are trained and specifically charged with protecting lives against random assailants and they weren’t able to prevent John Hinckley from shooting several people at close range.

    And that’s just off the top of my head. It’s an idea so self-evidently stupid that only someone as stupid as Trump could champion it.

  69. 69
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Sab: It shows how naive I’ve always been about firearms. I just have always assumed they are loaded because isn’t that the point of a gun?

    But thinking about it, of course those young soldiers are carrying empty guns. All these discussions on guns are giving me an education.

  70. 70

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: given that conservatives seem to think there’s an infinite supply of qualified teachers, they’ll just try and replace them.

  71. 71
    raven says:

    @Ohio Dad: Same here. Most of the places I was in Vietnam were in the “rear” and everyone secured their weapons when they were not on a reaction force.

  72. 72
    bmoak says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    Given that one of the primary goals of the Wisconsin Republican Party is to destroy public education in the state, I wouldn’t be surprised if the bill mandates every school have armed guards and other security features, but forces the funding 100% on local school districts.

  73. 73
    efgoldman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    How would schools afford them? The ammo?

    Maybe the nice folks that donate full back packs for poor kids could include weapons and ammo.

  74. 74
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Kay:

    Wasn’t this supposed to be some kind of exchange of ideas? Why is the big blowhard pushing his self-serving agenda at the forum the students organized?

    It was sold as that. It was never that. It was a photo op organized by Betsy Devos, and students unwilling to play ball were screened out. But the press bought it.

  75. 75
    raven says:

    @Ohio Mom: It’s not about naive, an UZI has a magazine and it’s easy to see if there is one in place. Now if it had a loaded magazine and didn’t have a round chambered, that’s different. In any case you are correct, all weapons are loaded.

  76. 76
    JPL says:

    @Baud: Rubio wants to work to protect the kids.

  77. 77
    Baud says:

    @JPL: Remember when he was a leader on immigration reform.

  78. 78
    Hellbastard says:

    Tough opening for Marco Rubio. But I give him credit for being there. Will leave a note on his facebook page.

  79. 79
    efgoldman says:

    @Kay:

    Why is the big blowhard pushing his self-serving agenda at the forum the students organized?

    Why do the tides go in and out. Nobody knows

  80. 80

    Only a morally bankrupt party or a person could suggest arming teachers as an option.

  81. 81
    JPL says:

    I don’t think the audience agrees with Rubio.

  82. 82
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    RIP Children of Newtown

    Fucking assholes.

  83. 83
    germy says:

    We are actively working on reports of targeted abuse and harassment of a number of survivors of the tragic mass shooting in #Parkland. Such behavior goes against everything we stand for at Twitter, and we are taking action on any content that violates our terms of service.

    — Twitter Safety (@TwitterSafety) February 21, 2018

  84. 84
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    And what if students and parents object? Maybe I wouldn’t want my kids (if I had any) near those guns? I’m a taxpayer (I hate that cliche). I don’t want guns in school.

  85. 85
    Ohio Mom says:

    @efgoldman: Did anyone ever hear from Yarrow?

  86. 86
    JPL says:

    Nelson is really old. The gun show loop hole has nothing to do with happened at the high school . Now he’s praising Rubio.

  87. 87
    Jeffro says:

    @beth:

    What happens to the teachers’ guns at the end of the day? Do they take them home? Are we going to buy gun safes for these teachers? If the guns stay locked up all night at the school are we now going to pay for all night security to guard those guns just sitting there all night? Everyone talks about the cost during the day but there’s quite a bit of cost for after school too. The whole thing is just ridiculous. Even if it somehow got taken seriously they would never spend that kind of money on schools. It shouldn’t even be discussed.

    Agreed. Here’s a simple solution…

    AD:
    (opens to scene of HS teacher in the middle of teaching HS lesson to HS kids…kids are a bit tense, teacher too)
    – scene pauses –
    (arrow points to random kid in class: caption “your kid”)
    (arrow points to sidearm at teacher’s hip: caption “allowed…perhaps even mandated…by your state”)
    – scene resumes for a sec –
    (then a kid rushes in, babbling about being late for class, and the nervous teacher pops him three times in the chest – pause – caption: “OUTCOME ONE”)
    – scene resets, then resumes for a sec –
    (viewers can see a barrel pointing in through the barely-open classroom door…teacher is popped, then the assailant comes in and starts shooting the students – pause – caption: “OUTCOME TWO”)
    – scene resets, then resumes for a sec –
    (teacher is teaching – but sidearm is missing – everyone is sad. Voiceover: “it’s the teacher’s last day. Actually, it’s ALL of the teachers’ last day. 2/3 of them have decided it is time to leave…leave this state, at least, if not the profession. And nobody knows who will teach the kids come next Monday morning” Pause. Caption: OUTCOME THREE”)
    “But it didn’t have to be this way. Call ______ and let him know that guns have no place in schools – we have far better, saner ways to keep our children safe from gun violence.”

  88. 88
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @bmoak: That would be very bad PR for the Wisconsin GOP.

  89. 89
    efgoldman says:

    @JPL:

    Rubio wants to work to protect the kids

    Resigning from office is a good first step.

  90. 90
    Jeffro says:

    @JPL: For now…

  91. 91
  92. 92
    beth says:

    @JPL: it was pretty powerful that while Rubio was arguing technicalities about different types of guns the people in the audience were holding up cellphones with photos of victims. They weren’t buying his bullshit.

  93. 93
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    I’m a taxpayer (I hate that cliche). I don’t want guns in school.

    You are in a minority. I’m very active in the political affairs of my town and its school system. I have been fighting the concept of an armed “school resource officer” for about 15 years now, and I know I am in the minority. Did I mention I was a persistent pain in the ass?

  94. 94
    efgoldman says:

    @germy:

    We are actively working on reports of targeted abuse and harassment of a number of survivors

    CBS interviewed on of the survivors who’s been getting slagged by the mouth breather noise machine. He basically told them to fuck off.
    These kids are not going to be intimidated. Once you survive a massacre, what else is going to intimidate you.

  95. 95
    Bill says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Conservatives despise teachers, therefore, teaching must be an easy job that any idiot can do. Not unlike Presidenting- it must be easy if that black guy was able to do it.

  96. 96
    JPL says:

    lol Rubio just keeps digging that hole and he’s not winning.

  97. 97

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: republican sex ed policies will ensure that they have an adequate supply of replacement students if liberals flee the state.

  98. 98
    Jeffro says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Teachers: so all that AND grading papers? Principals: I have to remember HOW many secret knocks before I barge in to observe a lesson? Superintendents: I’m on the hook if Ms. Jones in PS 123 can’t operate in low light and cap a potential perp instead of one of her English students? Taxpayers: I need to pony up HOW much to train these folks when they should be doing it during their summers for free*? Trumpov: I had a great idea…isn’t it great?

    *their usual bias/reasoning, not mine, people!

  99. 99
    celticdragonchick says:

    Rubio looking real, real bad.

  100. 100
    JPL says:

    In order to help bail him out Rubio called upon Nelson who just nailed him.

  101. 101
    celticdragonchick says:

    @JPL:

    Collegiality.

  102. 102
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    It’s such a stupid idea, it’s knocked down with little effort. The Florida school had an armed officer right? Didn’t save those students who died. Idea discredited. The end.

  103. 103
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @raven:

    In any case you are correct, all weapons are loaded.

    Even the one you just personally verified was unloaded.

  104. 104
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Or maybe they’ll get booted out of office.

  105. 105
    different-church-lady says:

    Earlier today on a different board: wingnut info-meme claiming Switzerland mandates gun ownership for all its citizens.

    What can you even say about people who want to be that fucking stupid?

  106. 106
    NotMax says:

    @Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito)

    From the article I linked to above.

    Under the bill, school districts could receive grants from the state Justice Department for three consecutive years to pay armed security officers in schools with grades 5-12.

    The grants would cover 75 percent of the cost the first year, 50 percent the second year and 25 percent the third year. The bill doesn’t specify how large the grants would be or where DOJ would get the money.

    BTW, this passed the same day they voted down expanding background checks.

    http://host.madison.com/ct/new.....aec68.html
    [snip]
    Democratic lawmakers on Thursday morning sent letters to [Assembly Speaker] Vos, Gov. Scott Walker and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, R-Juneau, urging them to pass bills that would implement universal background checks for gun purchases, ban the sale, manufacture or use of bump stocks and ban anyone convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence offense from owning a firearm.

    Vos dismissed the move as a media stunt, arguing Democrats could have called him personally if they were serious.

    “This is all about politics, and I think it’s really sad and it’s really cynical because they are preying on the fears of some Wisconsinites and using it for their own political purposes,” Vos said. Source

  107. 107

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: If republicanism was that unpopular in Wisconsin, Walker wouldn’t keep winning elections and surviving recalls.

  108. 108
    Sab says:

    @raven: Its easy to see if you know what to look for. I don’t and I have no intention of learning. Fortunately I am a woman so my government never made me learn. The only gun I ever handled was a 22 at summer camp and I was glad to leave it behind.

    My dad used to hunt a bit before we moved to Florida when I was a tiny child. After moonlighting for the coroners office he decided that we would never have a gun in the house. I have always followed his advice on that. All the shootings were family members shooting each other.

  109. 109
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jeffro:

    Teachers: so all that AND grading papers?

    They will require any training and/or range time be on personal time, not on the clock for more salary.

  110. 110
  111. 111
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @efgoldman:
    How do you respond to a death threat like a bad ass?

    “Not if I kill you first, scumbag.”

  112. 112
    NotMax says:

    Copy/paste faulty. Fix.

    The state Assembly voted Tuesday on party lines to reject a proposal to require universal background checks for gun purchases in Wisconsin, opting instead to offer funds for armed guards in schools and crack down on “straw purchasing.”
    [snip]
    Democratic lawmakers on Thursday morning sent letters to [Assembly Speaker] Vos, Gov. Scott Walker and Senate Majority Leader Scott Fitzgerald, R-Juneau, urging them to pass bills that would implement universal background checks for gun purchases, ban the sale, manufacture or use of bump stocks and ban anyone convicted of a misdemeanor domestic violence offense from owning a firearm.

    Vos dismissed the move as a media stunt, arguing Democrats could have called him personally if they were serious.

    “This is all about politics, and I think it’s really sad and it’s really cynical because they are preying on the fears of some Wisconsinites and using it for their own political purposes,” Vos said. Source

  113. 113
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Columbine had two armed officers. The fact that the idea is stupid doesn’t mean that it’s not popular.

  114. 114
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: If I cleared it, it is clear. If you cleared it, it is loaded.

  115. 115
    mad citizen says:

    I generally don’t like Rubio at all–of course–but I have to respect him for being there. He seemed bright enough to take down the orange bully in the primaries, I’m not sure why he didn’t get that done. Couldn’t fathom why he let Donald label him “little Marco”. As someone posted here one night, walking over and punching him in the face might have worked.

  116. 116
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    Whenever you meet somebody spouting stupid shit like that, aggressively shout them down and explain why they’re stupid. If it works for the right….

  117. 117
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: Vos can go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut for oh so many reasons.

  118. 118
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jeffro: Man. Did you actually type this all out?

  119. 119
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    That’s before Trump, I’m assuming. He’s really fucking with the Republicans atm.

  120. 120
    Another Scott says:

    Via Cheryl’s Twitter feed, NowThisIsNews interview with a Parkland teacher who hid 19 students in a closet

    More guns is never the answer.

    Kalashnikov’s greatest regret, also too.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  121. 121
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @NotMax: That happened here, like I said, about 15 years ago. It was great: hey, we got a grant, let’s have a resource officer. Some asshole at the financial meeting: well, when the grant runs out, you’ll stick the taxpayers with that bill, right? So year after year, the same asshole stands up at the financial meetings and says: hey, why are we paying for this armed, uniformed officer? Wouldn’t paying for an additional psychologist or guidance counselor be a better use of funds?

  122. 122
    Jeffro says:

    @celticdragonchick: well, yeah, that’s what happens when folks have no principles except their best guess at what’ll go over well with the rubes (no pun intended)

  123. 123
    Corner Stone says:

    @mad citizen: Or in the gut. Have Trump puking on stage and this nightmare ends.

  124. 124
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: I still treat it as loaded. Pixies could have chambered a round.

  125. 125
    Miss Bianca says:

    @efgoldman:

    Once you survive a massacre, what else is going to intimidate you.

    Word. So glad to see those kids pushing back on that BS. Ammosexuality has got to be shamed, blamed and driven out of American public discourse and back into the closet where it belongs.

  126. 126

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: walker is up for re-election this year, so I guess we’ll see.

    I just have little patience for white assholes fucking their own shit up these days.

  127. 127
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Bill: It depends on the cops and the Soldiers. In regard to the latter, much more time is spent in training on the M4 or other rifles than on pistol training. The latter is often almost an after thought. Though most of the people that I know who have made careers out of the military become quite proficient, though often because they hunt or are sport shooters.

    As to cops, it also depends. The conventional wisdom, though I’ve never actually seen any citations, is that most police officers only shoot, on average, when they have to re-qualify every year. Now here too, even if there was evidence that could be cited other than assertions, there will be variation. Some cops are former military or in the reserves or guard. Some are sport shooters and hunters. These folks will all be quite proficient. Similarly with those on SWAT or Quick Response or Hostage Rescue teams. The last three groups all get additional training for those specialized jobs.

    My understanding is that by and large the vast majority of police officers and law enforcement in the US do not have to, and as such do not, draw their duty weapons in any given year. Exactly what the numbers are in specific, I do not know and have never seen any citations for them. So while they may have some training under stress and tactical conditions, including required training for qualifying, they may not have any actual experience with these situations. Additionally, depending on the department and where it is located, depends on the firearms they’re using.

    For instance, the NYPD, as of 2014, only authorizes three firearms for carry: the Smith & Wesson 5946 – a late model 9mm (9X19/9mm Parabellum) double action only semi-auto, the SIG Sauer P226 – also 9mm and in this case double action only, and the GLOCK 17 – a full size, polymer striker fired (the striker is precocked on a double action design, allowing for the same, consistent trigger pull each time the trigger is pulled) 9mm pistol. The Smith and the SIG, as double action only pistols have 12 lbs trigger pulls, which are quite heavy for double action. It mimics/mirrors double action revolver trigger pull weights, which sort of makes sense because they replaced the older revolvers used by law enforcement. The NYPD also requires the GLOCKS they issue to be modified to have a 12 lbs trigger pull weight. This is supposed to be a safety enhancement modification. A stock, out of the box GLOCK pistol, regardless of caliber, has a (approximately) 5.5 lbs trigger pull weight, which is similar to those for most other striker fired pistols that have not been tuned for competition. The whole point of going with a striker fired pistol is to have a consistent trigger pull each time the trigger is pulled/depressed. Going to a 12 lbs trigger, means NYPD officers are fighting their guns if they have to actually shoot them. By doing this the NYPD turn their duty issue GLOCKs into a heavy trigger pull firearm that mimics a double action only in its trigger pull. A stock SIG P226, which sell commercially in both Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA) and Single Action Only (SAO) variants, has a double action trigger pull weight of 10 lbs and a single action pull weight of 4.5 lbs. So the NYPD double action only P226 trigger pull weight is two pounds heavier than stock. Here too it means that an officer that has to shoot his duty weapon will be fighting the gun. This negatively effects accuracy. Under stress it makes things even worse.

  128. 128
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: That’s on the socks.

  129. 129
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ohio Mom: I understand. Wasn’t trying to deny your response.

  130. 130
    efgoldman says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I’m very active in the political affairs of my town and its school system.

    Here? Where we live? In almost a state?

  131. 131
    Adam L Silverman says:

    This is also a good thread:

  132. 132
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: They don’t make the men’s ones that small.

  133. 133
    Jeffro says:

    @NotMax:(from the article you linked to)

    Under the bill, school districts could receive grants from the state Justice Department for three consecutive years to pay armed security officers in schools with grades 5-12.

    it’s nuts. local law enforcement is currently taught to drive, oh, 100-120 mph to get to the scene of any reported/suspected school shooting. They’re there within 2 minutes. And as many have noted above, many of these school shooting sites already HAVE armed officers on scene when things start, to no avail.

    The grants would cover 75 percent of the cost the first year, 50 percent the second year and 25 percent the third year. The bill doesn’t specify how large the grants would be or where DOJ would get the money.

    I love it! “We’ll cover most of the cost at the start and grab some of the limelight for being good guys, then let it dwindle away rather rapidly, wouldn’t you say? LOL peasants” Oh and then “don’t forget, you have to compete for these precious goodies, and we’re going to put it on your charge card anyway…”

  134. 134
    Miss Bianca says:

    @NotMax:

    “This is all about politics, and I think it’s really sad and it’s really cynical because they are preying on the fears of some Wisconsinites and using it for their own political purposes,” Vos said.

    We are so beyond the valley of the shadow of the planet of WTF at this point. It’s projection turtles ALL THE WAY DOWN.

  135. 135
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Those were just a list of questions that should be asked of anyone that is proposing this.

    How would schools afford them? I do not know.

    The ammo? I also do not know.

    What weapons would they be outfitted with? I don’t know this either.

    And wouldn’t more kids be shot potentially in shootouts? Most likely.

  136. 136
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Sab: Israeli carry.

  137. 137
    Calouste says:

    I’m OK with armed teachers as long as all the costs (including training, storage etc) gets paid 100% by a tax on guns and ammunition. To ensure compliance, the tax will be enacted at point of manufacture, and if there are any shortfalls in a year, the tax has to be raised the next year to make up for it.

    That way Chris Rock will get his $5000 bullets.

  138. 138
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The conventional wisdom, though I’ve never actually seen any citations, is that most police officers only shoot, on average, when they have to re-qualify every year.

    As a gunner, that’s about how often I shot. Oddly (or not), I did better qualifying when I had a M1911 than when I had and M16A1. OTOH, my guys could hit any fire mission called at as far as (let us say) 14km.

  139. 139

    A morally bankrupt president’s contributions to the national discourse
    1. President Obama’s birth certificate is fake
    2. Arm the teachers
    3. Your parents and your adult children are distant relatives
    4. Mexicans are rapists
    5. “Shithole” countries
    I could go on.
    This is not normal.

  140. 140
    ksmiami says:

    Get rid of the bloodthirsty NRA handmaidens in Congress (THE GOP) and Fox. Make them toxic sludge and restore sanity in America.The 2A does not supercede the Constitution and the Declaration.

  141. 141
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @efgoldman: Yeah, here. You know where, but I try not to get into too much detail in public, because I feel I may have left a few too many breadcrumbs over the years.

  142. 142
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @schrodingers_cat: And that, my conditional and uncertain friend, is the $64,000 question.

  143. 143
  144. 144
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ohio Dad: Yep. They’re also considered force multipliers if something goes wrong. But you’ll also notice they Israeli carry. No magazine seated in the firearm, no round chambered. They spend a lot of time practicing the Israeli load: inserting a magazine into the firearm and chambering a round under stress.

  145. 145
    beth says:

    Oh yeah he went there: Senator Rubio, will you say right here that you won’t accept any donations from the NRA?

  146. 146
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    My dad was a career schoolteacher, first at the high school level and then at middle school level. He was full blood, second gen Louisville Lebanese and a sports fanatic, while mom was a grade A central Kentucky White supremacist wingnut (and still is – go figure). He started teaching and coaching both middle and high schools in the early 60s. He always had an easy racial rapport with anybody he worked with, kind of bridged a couple of worlds, and never gave a shit because he expected performance and wins.

    I remember 1967 and 1968 because I was small and while mom was an asshole (even though younger than my oldest daughter is now), he wasn’t happy – there’d been some significant race riots in the neighborhoods he taught in, and several blocks got burnt out in the course of things. In the aftermath, a few teachers got knifed in the halls where he taught. He carried a pistol to work for about three weeks, and was miserable over it. Seeing him and knowing him, he wasn’t capable of using it.

    On occasion, when I’ve got a client I feel is going squirrelly, I’ll keep some insurance in my desk. It sucks, and I’m always glad when the crisis passes. Unlike my dad, though, I’m not as restrained – I’ve faced down guns in my face twice in life.

  147. 147
    JPL says:

    Rubio is trying to say the NRA buys in to his agenda.. He won’t refuse to accept money from the NRA/ hahaha.

  148. 148
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    ois Beckett @ loisbeckett
    So far in this debate: Rubio tries to explain how the “assault weapon ban” draws arbitrary distinctions between semiautomatic rifles. In response, crowd cheers in support of banning ALL semiautomatic rifles. “Fair enough,” Rubio says.

    @ dhookstead Daily Caller Douche
    The CNN Town Hall crowd goes crazy cheering in support of banning every semi-automatic gun in America. That would make the vast majority of guns illegal. #StudentsStandUp
    Josh Barro @ jbarro
    They were applauding a ban on semi-automatic *rifles*. And as of 1994, DOJ estimated that about 1/4 of guns in America were semi-autos. It’s surely higher now, but not “the vast majority.”

    Not a gun guy– why do we need semi-automatic weapons?

  149. 149
    Shalimar says:

    @germy: I remember all of my teachers. Mostly middle-aged and older women, handful of men. Counting gym teachers, maybe 5 out of several dozen who I could imagine pulling a gun out of their desk drawer if we had an active shooter situation. That is what I assumed Toobin meant, not that our teachers were horrible.

  150. 150
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: No one in garrison in the US military other than the MPs and the DOD police carry firearms on post. Down range, on post it is condition green (Israeli carry): no magazine in the weapon, no round chambered, safety on (anyway). Condition red is set as one leaves post. Except for Soldiers on security detail guarding the entrance/exit and perimeter.

  151. 151
  152. 152
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    I’m not as restrained

    One is rather astounded.

  153. 153
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    why do we need semi-automatic weapons?

    To compensate for feelings of sexual inadequacy.

  154. 154
    Bill says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I am, or was at one time, a shooting enthusiast. I carried (concealed, legally) an M1911A1 daily, for years, until it became clear to me that it was essentially a waste of my time and effort. I deeply appreciate your input and expertise. I had seen data that stated, and I’m paraphrasing, that shockingly high percentages of rounds fired in police ‘shootouts’ were winding up essentially everywhere but in the bad guy. Lots of flattened slugs being pried out of masonry and passers-by. I certainly wasn’t trying to imply that military personnel are non-proficient with weapons, but my understanding is that most combat arms guys don’t shoot the stress course regularly. If I’m wrong about that, my apologies. My larger point was that, as your earlier link explained so well, teachers would be terrible gunfighters.

  155. 155
  156. 156
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Ohio Mom: I sent an email. Haven’t heard back yet. Not uncommon that it takes several days to get a response.

  157. 157
    Corner Stone says:

    Jesus, Lindsay Vonn is a bullet.

  158. 158
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: Lucian Wintrich IV, the Twink for Trump.

    Ben Shapiro.

    The tough guys!

  159. 159
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Who is we? For professionals, they are a good tool. For normal folks, they are unnecessary.

  160. 160
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: That was a beautiful run.

  161. 161
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Adding to the list:
    What about disturbed or disabled teachers? (Poor vision/hearing, bad reflexes, emotionally troubled and on medication)
    What happens when a teacher actually shoots a student? Who takes care of students who have seen that teacher shoot someone?
    Who covers mistakes and property damage to the school?

    And in schools in neighborhoods that are overpoliced, teachers are about the only people who may have a rapport with the students. Arming them would discourage many more from even coming to school.

    Anyone even thinking about a potential arms race here?

  162. 162
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I wasn’t asking you in particular, just spitballing.

    But I do have a question: I was thinking about owning a revolver for home defense/target shooting in the future. Is there anything you’d (or anybody else) recommend?

    I hope this isn’t the wrong time to ask about this. I’m not a gun nut.

  163. 163
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @JPL: He’s only about 4’10, he digs it too deep and no one will be able to see him.

  164. 164
    patrick ii says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    And we would change her out for someone who enjoyed the thought of carrying a gun at work.

  165. 165
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jeffro: Sounds about right.

  166. 166
    different-church-lady says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    I hope this isn’t the wrong time to ask about this.

    Think… THINK…

  167. 167
    Corner Stone says:

    @Gin & Tonic: You have, PFC Butterfield. You have.

  168. 168

    @Adam L Silverman: Unconditional and certain.

    OT has anyone checked the stories about Trudeaus in India? One sample tweet.

    s it just me or is this choreographed cuteness all just a bit much now? Also FYI we Indians don’t dress like this every day sir, not even in Bollywood. pic.twitter.com/xqAqfPnRoZ

    — Omar Abdullah (@OmarAbdullah) February 21, 2018
    Abdullah is the leader of the National Conference and the former chief minister of Jammu and Kashmir.
    More here
    They look cute but they are dressed like they are attending a wedding reception.

  169. 169
    Bill says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Pump shotgun. Maybe with a bayonet. Not really kidding about the bayonet. Mossberg 590 is cheap and effective. You’ll want to be sure that everyone you care about is behind you when you light it off.

  170. 170
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @different-church-lady:
    Well, since we were on the subject. It wasn’t like I asked about an AR-15.

  171. 171
    Corner Stone says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    I hope this isn’t the wrong time to ask about this. I’m not agun nut crackpot.

  172. 172
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Why do you think you have a need for home defense?

  173. 173
    Waratah says:

    Have only been able to watch some of the town hall but these students are smart and and brave and angry. They are not afraid to ask any questions.

  174. 174
    Jager says:

    @Adam L Silverman: One of my neighbors is a retired FBI agent, he used to run the FBI SWAT team in LA. He and his fellow SWAT agents took the military’s tactical shooting course, I can’t remember what it’s official name is, the same course high level Special Ops guys take. He told me they shot 2500+ rounds a week for 4 weeks, all under tactical conditions (the kind of stuff teachers would have to react to) and he said, it was amazing how low the percentage of “kills” were recorded. As he said “it an’t the fucking movies”

  175. 175
    efgoldman says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    I try not to get into too much detail in public, because I feel I may have left a few too many breadcrumbs over the years.

    Last thing we got involved in, someone wanted to build condos between the I-295 off ramp and our street. The recession took care of that. Then they proposed a hotel (for Twin River, doncha’ know) but couldn’t get a franchisee to dive in. So we ended up with a nice, quiet credit union branch.
    Our daughter was mostly thru college when we moved from the Boston area, so the schools weren’t an issue except for general taxpayer concerns

  176. 176
    SFAW says:

    @different-church-lady:

    What can you even say about people who want to be that fucking stupid?

    “Forget it, Jake DCL, it’s Chinatown wingnuts.”?

  177. 177
    Amir Khalid says:

    @patrick ii:
    And wind up with teachers who are just itching to have someone make their day.

  178. 178
    Corner Stone says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I haven’t looked to see what happens, but no matter what she picked it up and put it down for that final run.

  179. 179
    celticdragonchick says:

    Rubio open to limits on magazine size.

    Important concession. That is something we can press on.

  180. 180
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    I hope this goes viral

    Greg Greene @ ggreeneva
    My God, Rubio’s getting Chris Christied by a 17-year-old.

    He can’t even stop himself from tripping over his talking points WITH A TEENAGER.
    10 replies 15 retweets 91 likes

  181. 181
    jl says:

    That would be a lot of troops all over the country. Maybe the feds could quarter the troops, or the veterans, in private homes so they’d always be nearby, and bill the schools for protective services. Maybe the home owners too, since they get professional protection when the solders are there.
    I’ll email the WH and see whether Trump likes the idea.

    Edit: I saw a tweet that said Trump didn’t meet with any of the HS kids involved in the protests, but a hand picked group of kids from Trumpster families. And that the ass Trump held one of his round-robin praise Dear Leader sessions during the meeting. Anyone know if that is true?

    Edit: never mind, just clicked on a news clip with one of the HS kids who was at the mass shooting speaking at the meeting. The tweet was wrong.

  182. 182
    Bill says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: My grandfather’s M1917 Smith and Wesson revolver has been working perfectly since the first world war. Smith or Colt, take your pick- handle some and decide if you like one more than the other. .357 magnums are nice because they will happily shoot the less-powerful .38 special round, and if you wish, you can shoot the more-powerful Magnum loads as well. Revolvers are nice from every standpoint save capacity. They’ll require more frequent and more complicated reloading, but if you can’t fix it with six rounds, you may not be able to fix it period. Point, squeeze, repeat as necessary.

  183. 183
    NotMax says:

    Surprised no one has linked yet to the picture of Dodge City in 1878.

    AFAIK, no court challenges to the ordinance.

  184. 184
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Amir Khalid: More likely a teacher who get rolled by a student and the weapon gets stolen.

  185. 185
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Corner Stone: She skied the aggressive line that she didn’t take yesterday.

  186. 186
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    I don’t honestly. I kind of thought it would be cool to own a revolver and use it for shooting practice every once in awhile. It could double as home defense.

    I own a co2 pistol and a pump action air rifle, which are obviously not the same thing as a real gun.

    I’d never want to own an assault rifle.

  187. 187
    Millard Filmore says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    what if teachers don’t want to become trained killers?

    What if the teachers don’t want to become a bullet sponge?

  188. 188
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Everybody has their own preferred platforms. Though I think it would be a little hard, as well as uncomfortable, to conceal carry a howitzer.

  189. 189
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: That was fucking crazy to watch.

  190. 190
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Shit happens. I’m thinking about the moment a couple of years ago when a shithead client pulled on me when my assistant and I showed up to deliver an invoice. Fucker waved a Sig in my face – the muzzle looked like the Holland Tunnel and my assistant was terrified.

  191. 191
    Immanentize says:

    Adam, Have you ever been to Acre? I was working with some lawyers and students from Haifa U. Who were doing some housing work in Acre. I learned something there I never fully grocked before. There is an ancient, crusade era Templar Church foundation in Acre. At some point, the Muslims defeated the crusaders then took over the facility. They leveled it and put a mosque right on top.

    Then I started seeing this all over the Middle East — every side — Roman, Jew, Christian, Muslim…. Conquer, level, construct. My God is better than your God. I understood things a whole lot better after visiting Acre.

  192. 192
    Mike J says:

    @Corner Stone: Invite them to the local military base for spendex.

  193. 193

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: it’s important to be honest with yourself about your motivations.

  194. 194
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The M1095A has that shape that really complements my cocktail dress, but it only comes in khaki and the MPG is simply awful on the highway.

  195. 195
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    But you’ll also notice they Israeli carry. No magazine seated in the firearm

    My parents went to Israel shortly after my dad retired for good in the early 70s. My mom remarked on all the usual things, but she said over and over “there are guns everywhere. The police, soldiers, all with guns.”
    She grew up here in the 1930s, and had never seen such a thing, even in wartime.

  196. 196
    NotMax says:

    @CarolDuhart2

    Bullseye, Mr. Chips.

    “Armed” and “school” do not belong on the same page.

  197. 197
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Corner Stone:
    Is that a slight?

  198. 198
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Please don’t be offended, but thinking it would be cool to own a gun is not a good reason to get one.

  199. 199
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mike J: I didn’t think we were talking about yoga pants any longer?

  200. 200
  201. 201
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: To the extent that I might qualify as a member of the normal folks group, for me firearms are both unnecessary and hazardous. They are an instrument of escalation, and as such, IMO, worse than useless in a bad situation. I have never found myself in a situation where my having a gun would have improved things, including having a gun held to my head.

  202. 202
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    As someone upthread posted – get a pump shotgun with an 18.5 barrel and use #4 birdshot so it won’t penetrate too many walls.

    People who don’t train under stress are absolutely terrible shots with pistols. It’s harder for novices to keep a pistol steady and pointed in the right direction than a shotgun.

  203. 203
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Yeah, I am. A gun is a gun, but I think a revolver, with six shots, would be enough for me. I want to stress I’m not a gun nut and wouldn’t dream of owning an assault rifle.

  204. 204
    jl says:

    Listening to Trump babbling about concealed carry in the schools in the clip of the meeting. Disturbing. What an brutal mindless idiot.
    Why is the ass Trujmp babbling at the meeting? I thought i was a ‘listening’ meeting.

  205. 205
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    No one in garrison in the US military other than the MPs and the DOD police carry firearms on post.

    “No brass, no ammo, drill sergeant.”
    And woe betide the private who either lied or was mistaken. I think a guy in my basic training company 40+ years ago is still doing pushups and laps.

  206. 206
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: I’d have skipped the part before the comma.

  207. 207
    Mike in NC says:

    President Donald Trump said Wednesday that having more people armed at schools could prevent future mass shootings. “I think it could very well solve your problem,” he said.

    Said weapons training to be part of a no-bid contract with the newest division of the Trump Organization: Ivanka Arms

  208. 208
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @celticdragonchick: M110A2, please. Big and accurate, but not fast. Two out of three ain’t bad.

  209. 209
    jl says:

    @Mike in NC: Yeesh. I’s ‘your problem’ to Trump. Like I suggested above, someone in the WH is probably figuring out to make a buck off of solving ‘their’ problem.

  210. 210
    cain says:

    @beth:
    Inner city schools won’t have anything, but all the rich schools will get all the funding. Or maybe inner cities schools don’t get any armed guards. /s

  211. 211

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Right, but you went from saying you wanted it for home defense, to saying instead that you didn’t anticipate the need to defend your home but thought it would be cool.

  212. 212
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: LOL

  213. 213
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    for home defense, I recommend a charged phone to call 911, and a golf club.

  214. 214
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Is that bad? I did say it could double as both.

  215. 215
    jl says:

    @cain: Funding? Funding? We talking about funding? Trumpsters will figure out a way to charge them for the BS protection. Inner city schools probably get charged more.

  216. 216
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: Normals include hunters, target, shooters, and people who have a legit concealed carry need as well as real normals like you. Only pros need semi-auto – and, even then, snipers don’t use them.

  217. 217
    Jager says:

    @efgoldman: He’s lucky he only got laps and push ups. Usually it was an Article 15 with a fine.

  218. 218
    Another Scott says:

    @Bill: Amadou Diallo:

    The [four NY City Police] officers [from the Street Crimes Unit] fired a combined total of 41 shots, 19 of which struck Diallo …

    People who did police stuff for a living in the largest city in the country, who were used to handling guns under stress, messed up this badly in dealing with one unarmed person.

    The idea that armed teachers can somehow protect their students from someone with a weapon of war is ludicrous (as many have outlined above).

    More guns are never the solution.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  219. 219
    NotMax says:

    @Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito)

    Spend the money for a weapon, for safety training and practice, for ammo, for cleaning supplies, for a gun safe, etc. instead on renter’s insurance.

  220. 220
  221. 221
  222. 222
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Watching the Rough Beast stammer out his plan for armed teachers– “It’s called concealed carry”– I wonder how much of this came straight from Slabhead Donnie, or John Kelly

  223. 223
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Put down the keyboard and spend a little time thinking. The more you type the more you’re sounding like a moron.

  224. 224
    GregB says:

    Teacher holding a smoking gun with a dead student at his feet:

    “He looked like a thug…..I mistook his Skittles for a gun….”

    Whom the God’s will destroy, they first drive mad.

  225. 225
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Semi-autos are self loaders. They can have detachable magazines, integral magazines, detachable magazines designed for stripper clips, or integral magazines designed for stripper clips. And depending on the platform, the capacity of these magazines or clips can range from as few as five rounds all the way up to ridiculously large magazines that only a moron would purchase to prove they’re something. All a semi-automatic rifle or pistol does is use the movement of the internal parts of the firearm to eject the spent casing, strip the next round off the top of the magazine, and load it into the chamber as the gun returns to battery. It has nothing to do with trigger pull. A semi-automatic pistol or rifle or shotgun, barring illegal modification or using something like a bump fire stock, still requires the trigger be pulled each time one wishes to actually shoot the gun.

    A modern revolver can take anywhere from five to eight rounds in the cylinder. Each trigger pull both fires the revolver and rotates the cylinder making the gun ready to fire again.

    Pump action shotguns, lever action and bolt action rifles have integral tube magazines. The make and model will determine how many rounds or shotgun shells can be loaded. Pumping the shotgun’s, levering the rifle’s, or pulling the rifle’s bolt, works the action, ejecting the spent case or shell and loading the next one in the magazine.

    There are also single shot rifles and shotguns.

  226. 226
    cain says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    6) Who pays for the training?

    Who pays for the little kids to be trained to stay the hell out of the way in a firefight? What happens if the shooter is one of the armed guards who has gone nuts? I mean seriously, this is ridiculous.

  227. 227
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    How so? If I’m being honest, the real reason is for target practice. That’s it.

  228. 228
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Bill: Tracking. Just being thorough!

  229. 229
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Corner Stone: This is the thread for that comparison.

  230. 230
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    I had dinner with a classmate tonight and we discovered we both love Balloon Juice. He said, “Wait, are you Omnes Omnibus?”

  231. 231
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: You’re not that dense. At least I hope not.

  232. 232
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NotMax: That sounds like a good idea, especially the safety training stuff.

  233. 233
    japa21 says:

    Something nobody is mentioning in this whole discussion of arming the teachers. This is not about preventing shootings, it is about minimizing deaths if a shooting occurs. 17 dead is too many? If we do this, probably only have 10 dead. Tough to be one of those dead, but look, we saved 7 lives.

    This is wrong priority. The priority is to focus on what best prevents the shootings from happening in the first place. Remember Cruz had been a student at the school. I am sure he was aware there were armed guards. Did not deter him.

  234. 234
  235. 235
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Email me offline. But the first question you have to ask yourself is: if push came to shove, do you think you could shoot someone in self defense? And by shoot, I mean try to kill someone in self defense? Because if you don’t think you can, don’t get a gun for self defense. Get a dog. And a baseball bat. And some pepper spray.

  236. 236
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    Let’s pretend I am. Why am I being dense?

  237. 237

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: I think max is saying to use all the money you’d spend on a gun and use it to buy renters insurance.

  238. 238
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: You mis-read him. He said take all the money that would cost and buy an insurance policy.

    Since you edited your other post after I replied: if you want to shoot for target practice, fine. One of my closest friends was a pretty high-level competitive shooter. So do like him, and keep the weapon under lock and key at the range. Then you won’t be a moron and think that you can also use it for defending your home.

  239. 239
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @zhena gogolia: I am so sorry.

  240. 240
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    If you want to target practice, get a .22 bolt action rifle. Cheap and easy gun to learn with.

    Get safety lessons and then shooting lessons.

  241. 241
    efgoldman says:

    @celticdragonchick:

    More likely a teacher who get rolled by a student and the weapon gets stolen.

    Who’s going to provide weapons and training for substitutes?
    They just spew shit out there. “Thinking it through” is not in their lexicon.

  242. 242
    Another Scott says:

    @NotMax: … and get a dog with a deep bark.

    LA Times:

    Oh, and match those 259 justifiable homicides with the theft of about 232,000 guns each year, about 172,000 of them during burglaries. That’s a ratio of one justifiable homicide for every 896 guns put in the hands of criminals.

    More guns are never the answer.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  243. 243
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @schrodingers_cat: If he can sing and dance, you’ve got a crossover hit on your hands!//

  244. 244
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Oh, I was flattered.

  245. 245
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Gin & Tonic:
    Why at the range and not in a safe at my house, in that case.

  246. 246
    J R in WV says:

    @Bill:

    Thanks for sharing this. What a punch to the gut! Out of the clear blue, a hammer blow.

    Thanks again, a great point.

  247. 247
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: That was a question I wrestled with a lot before joining the army. It is an important one.

  248. 248
    Bill says:

    @Another Scott: You are illustrating my point more exactly than I had. We agree, and we’re on the same side. I’m actually impressed that they managed 19 out of 41. Maybe impressed isn’t the best word. Sad. That’s better. Nearly half the shots fired hit the unarmed man. Yay NYPD.

  249. 249
  250. 250
    Gin & Tonic says:

    And with that I’m out. I am not and was never a “gun person.” I’ve never owned a firearm, and there was never one in the house – my father would sooner have had a rabid cheetah in the house. His, um, “lived experience” between about 1938 and about 1945 made him a pacifist. If you want a gun, get one. I hope that when it’s fired, it kills you and not some innocent person.

  251. 251
    cain says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    @schrodingers_cat: you left out banning Muslims!

    Come on now, Islam doesn’t kill people, people kill people!

  252. 252
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jager: It is not the movies. Here’s a training video made about ten years ago or so of the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment – Delta, aka Delta Force, doing their training. It is believe Delta actually leaked it themselves as an informal recruiting video.

  253. 253
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @zhena gogolia: So there are at least three Vikes here. That is great for such a tiny school.

  254. 254
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    I don’t know for sure. I’d like to think so but no one knows until that moment. I wouldn’t want to be in that situation. So I guess I wouldn’t want to use a gun for that.

  255. 255
    Calouste says:

    @japa21: Armed guards are not going to deter school shooters. Almost all of them do it to “go out in a blaze of glory”. They want to die.

  256. 256
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: Fake News! SAD!

  257. 257
    NotMax says:

    @zhena gogolia

    Was this in a very dimly lit speakeasy?

    Omnes is of the XY persuasion.

    ;)

  258. 258
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    It’s hilarious.

  259. 259
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    I kind of thought it would be cool to own a revolver

    Read that out loud to yourself. If it sounds strange, you have your answer. If it doesn’t sound strange, email me and I’ll explain why it should.

    Even for sport and target shooting, these are tools. They are designed to do one thing: damage whatever they are fired at. And by damage I mean significantly harm all the way to obliterate depending on the platform and caliber.

  260. 260
    Corner Stone says:

    @Adam L Silverman: But does she have butterfly wings?

  261. 261
    mad citizen says:

    @japa21: “Something nobody is mentioning in this whole discussion of arming the teachers. This is not about preventing shootings, it is about minimizing deaths if a shooting occurs. 17 dead is too many? If we do this, probably only have 10 dead. Tough to be one of those dead, but look, we saved 7 lives.

    This is wrong priority. The priority is to focus on what best prevents the shootings from happening in the first place. Remember Cruz had been a student at the school. I am sure he was aware there were armed guards. Did not deter him.”

    I just turned the CNN stream off, can’t take any more. But japa21, this is exactly what I was thinking. They are talking about second-best (or worse) solutions, not the cause. As others here have pointed out, it will take a package of laws, etc. to change things. But there is a core change in our nation that needs to occur. For me, if idiots and politicians could quit talking about how ‘merica is #1 in this or that so much, that would be a refreshing start.

  262. 262
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Then don’t even think about a gun of any kind for self defense. And never consider a gun because it is cool.

  263. 263
    Shalimar says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: Statistically, with numbers I could look up but am too lazy to at the moment, the person most likely to be killed in your home defense is you. If someone breaks in, call 911, then hide. They want your stuff, which is replaceable.

  264. 264
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Immanentize: I’ve been to Akko/Acre. Beautiful city. And yes that was part of one of the Templar’s northern outposts for the Kingdom of Jerusalem within Outremer.

    It is a beautiful mosque and part of my explanatory theory that I call the Law of Conservation of Religious Sites.

  265. 265
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @celticdragonchick: The ability to coordinate one’s outfit and accessorize is important.

  266. 266
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: One of the issues that Israel will eventually have to deal with, and there’s a long list, is reconciling being a parliamentary democracy and a garrison state and society at the same time.

  267. 267
    cain says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    And wind up with teachers who are just itching to have someone make their day.

    Actually, that’s another interesting thing.. you might end up with damaged people wanting to be teachers because they love the idea of packing heat. Ammosexuals as teachers.. all I can think of is a whole bunch of people like Eugene Tackleberry from the Police Academy.

  268. 268
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Adam L Silverman:
    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Sorry, I didn’t think what I typed out all the way. What I meant was that it would be fun for sport and I should I have made that clear from the start. You’re 100 percent correct that they are tools. I’m sorry again that I sounded flippant about it.

  269. 269
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @zhena gogolia: We should all hit the Viking Room or Jim’s Place some time. There is an occasional poster here who used to work at LU but moved on to LA as an actress. We contributed to a GoFundMe for her first project. I am a little upset about this since she had promised to buy me a drink.

  270. 270
    NotMax says:

    @Adam L. Silverman

    In truth, that is perhaps the wisest response of them all..

  271. 271
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @germy: I had some teachers I would for damn sure not want to be armed. Some with anger management issues, some with just poor situational awareness.

  272. 272
    cain says:

    @GregB:

    Teacher holding a smoking gun with a dead student at his feet:

    Thoughts and prayers.

  273. 273
    NotMax says:

    @Omnes Omnibus

    With interest accrued, now she has to buy you a distillery.

  274. 274
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: There’s always one.

  275. 275
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: A whiskey with a beer back will be fine.

  276. 276
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @zhena gogolia: Your secret is out!//

  277. 277
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @germy: They stand for something at Twitter?

  278. 278
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: It is the first and last question I ask anyone who asks me if they should get a gun and/or if I can help them learn to shoot.

  279. 279
    Jay says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷:

    A baseball bat, keep a glove, cap and ball handy, then it’s not a “weapon”,

    A “booken”, a hardwood Japanese katana clone used for training in Kenjutsu and Aikido.

    I live on rural property, and have enough guns. A Safe gun, is an unloaded gun, locked away, with the ammo locked away somewhere else. I actually keep my guns stripped and the bolts locked away in a 3rd Safe.

    My Dad kept his guns locked away, with trigger locks, and the ammo locked away, somewhere else. My Brother and I played War, Quick Draw, Cowboys and Indian’s all the time with my Dad’s guns, one we figured out where he hid the keys, ( and how to bump locks).

    We stopped playing with Dad’s gun’s when my Brother strapped on Dad’s Ruger Single Action .22, in it’s Western Holster, did a quick draw/slap fire, and put 5 rounds into the Rec Room fireplace and mantle. Dad was in too much hurry to unload it.

    ( yes, Ammosexuals, a Ruger Single Action has loads 6 shots, except, if you hold to the “olden days” gun rules, on an exposed hammer revolver, one chamber is always kept empty, and that chamber is where the uncocked hammer rests. That way, if you fall on your ass somewhere, and a hard object strikes the trigger, you won’t shoot yourself or somebody else).

  280. 280
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: She had far more classes on the third floor of Main Hall than I did. French was always in the basement.

  281. 281
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Corner Stone: I do not understand this question. I’m pretty sure I’m missing some important context.

  282. 282
    celticdragonchick says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Yes, yes it is! ;)

  283. 283
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I think I know my answer. But I never got tested. Intellectually, I can say yes. I have never been put in a position where I had to decide.

  284. 284
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: Thanks.

  285. 285
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: That’s two of us. And if we’re lucky it will remain that way.

  286. 286
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Agreed.

  287. 287
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

  288. 288
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    Harrumph!

    ETA: Or this.

  289. 289
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: That’s excellent!

  290. 290
    J R in WV says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    But I have never had anything to do with guns, and they make the hair on the back of my neck stand on edge. (It didn’t occur to me at the time that the guns might not be loaded.)

    Pretty sure they’re loaded. An unloaded rifle is a clumsy club, not as good as a baseball bat.

  291. 291
    seaboogie says:

    “I think it could very well solve *your* problem”, says t. I know there is so much more flagrantly awful stuff he does and says on an average day, but this coupled with his notes on how to act like a human during a “listening” session are just how it is right now. Enabled by the GOP congress.

    Fuck McConnell, fuck Ryan, and dog bless these brave, strong young adults who are channeling their grief and anger and working towards a better today and tomorrow.

  292. 292
  293. 293
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka Baka Amerikahito) 🗳 🌷: A gun is a terrible idea for home defense; that’s what people are trying to convey here. The gun itself presents a greater danger to you than any it could ward off.

    There may be exceptions (maybe you live around grizzly bears), but if your situation were one you’d probably know specifically why.

    If you want one for target shooting, to keep it from being a menace to you and to others, it needs to be stored securely enough that you probably couldn’t use it to defend your fortress.

  294. 294
    Corner Stone says:

    WTF is going on with WP tonight?

  295. 295
    Sab says:

    @J R in WV: My spouse, a vet, keeps a Louisville slugger by his bed. I keep the axe I used to chop wood with.

    The only time we have been home invaded, it was a drunken friend of my stepson, crawling in the wrong window. If my husband had had a gun he would have shot this sweet kid that we love. Instead, he nearly but did not brain him with a baseball bat.

  296. 296
    scott alloway says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Always assume a gun is loaded. Period. It is a weapon, not a prop. I’m an old liberal who has owned hunting rifles (30-30 Winchester, shotgun. No more). They are very serious instruments.

  297. 297
    Corner Stone says:

    @scott alloway: I personally do not think Omnes takes gun safety very seriously. He seems flippant. What else might you suggest on this matter?

  298. 298
    J R in WV says:

    @J R in WV:

    And I see that I was wrong. Not for the first time.

Comments are closed.