Two Things That Give Me Hope

Yesterday, Betty wrote about signs of hope that this shooting might cause some change. I’m not a natural optimist about the human condition, but I’m feeling just a wee bit hopeful, for two reasons.

First, this mom explains the stark, ugly, brutal reality of “active shooter training” better than I ever could:


According to the ALICE training company, over 1 million kids have been exposed to the notion that they should scurry around like noisy frightened rabbits if someone with a gun starts shooting up their school.

Second, we naturally focus on the children and adults who are killed or maimed in these shootings, but the damage goes far beyond that:

On that day, Townville’s [S.C.] kids joined a group that now includes more than 150,000 students, attending at least 170 primary or secondary schools, who have experienced a shooting on campus since the Columbine High School massacre in 1999, according to a Post analysis of online archives, state and federal enrollment figures and news stories. That doesn’t count dozens of suicides, accidents and after-school assaults that have also exposed children to gunfire.

That number surprised the hell out of me, even though I should have imagined it. 150,000 kids felt, to some extent, the sheer terror of possible violent death. Many of them have lasting psychic scars, like the 7 year-old girl profiled in the piece where that stat is quoted.

These are just two examples of how we are inflicting damage upon our children just to mollify a bunch of gun humpers with big mouths and deep pockets. At some time – and I’m not going to delude myself into thinking that time is now – we’re going to say enough.






214 replies
  1. 1
  2. 2
    Lapassionara says:

    And the two things that give you hope?

  3. 3
    WaterGirl says:

    That quote from the mom gave me chills. It should be everywhere. Everywhere.

  4. 4
    germy says:

    Heard a radio interview with one of the Parkland students. He said it’s time for politicians to get serious about real gun control laws. He said “I’m too young to vote and I’m not a russian bot.”

    I’m hoping things flip.

  5. 5
    Big Ole Hound says:

    The Assault Weapons Ban that was in effect from 1993 to 2003 has been reintroduced by Dianne Feinstein. This time with no sunset clause….Maybe Maybe it will pass.

  6. 6
    chris says:

    Also this from one of the young people who had to hide in a closet for two hours. Click to read her FB post, I think we’ll be hearing more about Alyssa Goldfarb.

    my only words. pic.twitter.com/5ICqoGrybl— alyssa (@alysgoldfarb) 16 February 2018

  7. 7
    debbie says:

    How psychologically damaging is it that kids are made to walk out with their hands in the air? I understand the reason, but there has got to be another, more humane alternative.

  8. 8
    germy says:

    @chris: Did you see this stupid reply she got?

    1. If your house was being broken into by a few people who wanted to rob, rape and kill you and your family you would need a semiautomatic weapon.2. You can kill 17 people with a normal hand gun if you are crazy enough to do it.3. We need more security not more gun laws.— RW Sports Debate YouTube Channel (@RWSportsDebate) February 17, 2018

    The idiot contradicts himself in one tweet. First he says you would NEED a semiautomatic weapon to stop a rapist home invader. But then he says you can kill 17 people with a regular handgun.

  9. 9
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    We must make sacrifices to Moloch, and to the metal penii of death.

    We must.

    The 2nd Amendment fetishists demand it!

  10. 10
    Immanentize says:

    @Lapassionara: I’m sure one is that Bernie Sander’s deep involvement with Russian espionage is finally coming to light.

  11. 11
    debbie says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Again, the mindset is appalling. Rob Portman and the other NRA schills should be made to run around and throw books at the shooters.

  12. 12
    foucault swing voter mistermix says:

    @Lapassionara: The numbers give me hope: 1 million and 150K. At some point enough people’s children are going to be affected by this that all the bullshit laid down by gun nuts is going to be swept aside.

  13. 13
    KickBoxBanana says:

    You people may as well be hoping for unicorns and gold at the end of the rainbow. First, dems need a supermajority, then you can start talking about banning assault rifles which is about the most you can hope for. I personally think that is the main legislation needed. That is what Bill Clinton tried to do and what Obama wanted to do.

    There is no reason that AR15 semi-auto assault rifles should be easily available to the general public. It’s called an assault rifle for a reason. Hello!!! It’s not a deer rifle, or a gun range rifle, it’s an assault rifle!

    Anyways, I think you people are dillusional and getting WAAAAAY ahead of yourselves if you think anything will change as long as Repubs run things. DId they ever get around to banning those gun stocks used in the LV massacre that they said they would? Doubt it.

  14. 14
    germy says:

    Engaging with assholes on the internet is like trying to drown a vampire with your own blood

    — Andy Richter (@AndyRichter) January 22, 2014

  15. 15
    efgoldman says:

    @Colleeniem:

    The kids are all right

    CBS interviewed a small group of Parkland kids who lost friends. Yup, they’re angry. They want to do something. And a lot of them can begin voting veryc soon

    @chris: .

    Also this from one of the young people who had to hide in a closet for two hours.

    I think we all agree that political reality (as long as the RWNJ/NRA party controls even one branch), but the kids ARE alright. And they are the next generation. Maybe, just maybe….

  16. 16
    GregB says:

    I do think this incident may have finally broken the spell.

    Having the folks who have been telling everyone that “more guns stops gun violence” for the last 40 years was the solution have a grip on the entire body politic sort of makes that talking point pretty hollow.

  17. 17
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @KickBoxBanana: Takes work, and we are doing that work. Yes, it will take time, but it can be done. Vote Blue, no matter who.

  18. 18
    gene108 says:

    @Colleeniem:

    A lot of them will be potential voters in 2020.

    ********************************************************

    I think there is a backlash brewing. The gun fuckers are both uncompromising and keep moving the goal posts on what is “gun grabbing”, I think the backlash will be just as uncompromising.

    I, for one, am ready to abolish the second amendment and ban all private gun ownership in this country.

    As far as moving goalposts, with the goal of having any idiot with a pulse be able to carry a gun anywhere he wants, the gun nuts have created laws like open carry. 10 years ago open carry did not exist. If I were to lobby to abolish open carry, I would be deemed a gun grabber, who will start us on the slippery slope to outright gun confiscation. Even though people had fun with their guns 10 years ago, and they could not open carry.

    So if they are so afraid of the slippery slope to gun confiscation, when reasonable attempts at compromise have been floated, I say fuck ’em. Our position should be just as uncompromising: outright gun confiscation and a ban on all private gun ownership.

  19. 19
    Elizabelle says:

    A brief Reuters story, in full, from 2 days ago, February 15:

    House Speaker Ryan: Florida shooting shouldn’t threaten right to own guns

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) – Speaker of the U.S. House of Representatives Paul Ryan, in a round of interviews with conservative radio shows on Thursday, said the Florida school shooting that killed at least 17 people on Wednesday should not threaten citizens’ rights to own guns.

    “There’s more questions than answers at this stage,” the Republican lawmaker said in an interview with Tom Katz on Indiana radio station WIBC about the mass shooting less than 24 hours earlier.

    “I don’t think that means you then roll that conversation into taking away citizens’ rights – taking away a law-abiding citizen’s rights. Obviously this conversation typically goes there. Right now, I think we need to take a breath and collect the facts.”

    That fucker is running scared. He is shoring up his conservative base.

    Gun owner citizens’ rights over everyone else’s rights to peacefully assemble for school, work, entertainment, and community, even church, and return home alive. I hope Ryan’s ass gets fried this November in the midterms, or by Mueller even earlier than that.

  20. 20
    chris says:

    @germy: Yeah, the stupid kinda burns. I was expecting harrumphs over the AK-15 error.

  21. 21
    Starfish says:

    A lot of people are writing checks to their Republican congresspeople’s re-election campaigns and writing THOUGHTS AND PRAYERS on the “For” line and explaining that they hope that the check does as much for their re-election as the feckless congresspeople’s thoughts and prayers are doing for the students in our schools.

  22. 22
    tamiasmin says:

    ”At some time…we’ve got to say enough.”

    This is the time. You can bet that the NRA is not going to stop pounding out its bloody message. They count on the rest of us getting distracted or discouraged and giving up until the next shooting. This time let’s not play their game. Let’s stay angry and focused. And let’s make legislators more afraid of us than of the NRA. It looks as if the kids might lead the way. The classmates of the murdered students are up in arms. Let’s get behind them.

  23. 23
    germy says:

    @gene108:

    I, for one, am ready to abolish the second amendment

    No need to abolish it. Just interpret it correctly. Well-regulated militia and all that.

  24. 24
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    I think the anger makes a huge difference. Before, it was simply victims who wanted to grieve and not talk. I also think Las Vegas made a difference. What “good guy with a gun” in the crowd below could stop a sniper several stories above? And Las Vegas is hardly slack about security with the billions that pass through every day. But all that made no difference.

  25. 25
    Immanentize says:

    @germy: I teach criminal law and have been a lawyer in the criminal justice world for decades. I get this from students all the time — you need a gun to protect yourself in your home. Just Thursday, one of my students at least went the deterrence route: “who would a burglar Rob, granny without a gun or a house that has several?”
    Well, the truth is,
    people burglarize houses with guns because they are valuable and easy to fence
    People with guns in their house are generally rational actors and will say something like: “Who’s there? I have a gun!” Giving away their position so the drug involved gun toting burglar can shoot them. Criminals don’t converse
    Guns in schools do not save everyone. Almost every school shooting these days involves schools where armed guards are present.

    In my administrator life at at an urban University, I sat on our Incident Support Team which dealt with everything from Patriot Buper Bowl parade logistics to snow storms to suicides. We had to vet the active shooter training videos we required for all employees. There is one clear message — a shooter can kill at least 5 people, even with a handgun or shot gun, before anyone knows what the fuck just happened. More guns increase response problems, they don’t diminish them.

  26. 26
    ThresherK says:

    Huh: I guess the letters in ALICE can be rearranged to form DARE.

    I wonder what the next acronymmed counterproductive program like this will be visited on our schools in the name of safety?

  27. 27
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @KickBoxBanana: You start talking about the thing way before it becomes politically possible. That’s how it eventually becomes politically possible. It might take twenty or fifty years, but it will never happen if you don’t start–that includes giving a lot of details of what you’d do if you could.

  28. 28
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Immanentize: Burglars usually hit houses when the owners aren’t there. A gun is worse than useless in that situation–nobody’s going to use it to defend the house, and it’s one of the best things to steal.

  29. 29

    @germy:

    If your house was being broken into by a few people who wanted to rob, rape and kill you and your family

    This one quote says an enormous amount about conservatives and especially gun fetishists. In their imaginary world, this is a realistic possibility you should guard against.

    @Elizabelle:
    I don’t know. I think he would say that, period. He’s an extremist, an asshole, not merely callous but actively murderous, and at least moderately nihilistic.

  30. 30
    Lapassionara says:

    I am old enough to remember the photo of Angela Davis and her friends brandishing machine guns. That image got some legislation moving, iirc.

    Snowing this am in the greater St Louis area, so I have turned on the TV to see the incomparable Joy Reid discussing security clearances with Malcolm Nance. Good times!

  31. 31
    Immanentize says:

    @germy: This is the path. Regulation, not constitutional amendment. Registration, licensing, and no fault liability insurance for all firearms.

  32. 32
    Tom says:

    Here’s an idea that almost everyone can relate to. Don’t ban guns, just do what we do with the other widely available item of mass carnage – cars. Require training prior to using and/or owning firearms; require licenses that have to be regularly renewed; require registration for each and every gun; require liability insurance for each and every gun; require showing license, registration and proof of insurance whenever requested by law enforcement; and place special restrictions on particularly dangerous items (tractor trailers; assault rifles). Nobody things having unlicensed and uninsured drivers is a good idea (OK, maybe Rand Paul, but fuck him anyway) – there’s no reason why we shouldn’t have the same common sense requirements for guns.

  33. 33
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Big Ole Hound: It’s better than nothing, but the 1990s ban was pretty toothless–for one thing, it didn’t take anybody’s guns away. Any gun manufactured before the ban came into effect was grandfathered in (one was among the guns used by the Columbine shooters).

    I’d like to see the banned weapons actually made illegal to possess, or at least illegal to resell. Obviously it’d be hard or impossible to confiscate them all, millions of heavily armed people would instantly howl MOLON LABE and refuse to give them up, but we could stop open trade and some fraction of people would turn them in.

  34. 34

    @Tom:

    almost everyone can relate to

    You wildly underestimate the power of Cleek’s Law. Consistently, even Republicans are receptive to liberal policies if you can present those policies with no context. The moment it becomes a conservative vs liberal issue, they will vote fanatically against every liberal policy, even the ones they themselves support.

    We can only win this at the ballot box. Mind you, I think we can win this at the ballot box, and the more our side is angry the better.

  35. 35
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Tom:

    That’s what makes sense to me. But I’m afraid it won’t happen in my lifetime.

    I liked the tweet somebody had that said something like (to Marco Rubio), ban guns, and when people get upset about that you can send them your thoughts and prayers.

  36. 36
    MattF says:

    @Matt McIrvin: There’s a lot of ifs, buts, and wherefores in that prediction. Specifically, I don’t see any near-term prospect for new restrictions on gun ownership, not to mention assault-rifle ownership.

    That said, I think there’s new energy here and Dems should not be shy about making use of it. Republicans are so used to pulling nourishment from the NRA teat that they cannot imagine a world without it. It’s a real weakness for them.

  37. 37
    Immanentize says:

    @Lapassionara: Yes, I’ve always said, arming black people and putting them in black leather jackets and sun glasses is the surest path to gun control legislation.

    And for those interested, here in Angela Davis’ amazing argument called “Why I Saw Fit to Own Guns.”. (Only version online I could find.)

  38. 38
    d58826 says:

    HAPPENED TO SEE THIS on twitter for all of the Bernie Bros:

    Ari: Did you know then that Russia was leaking emails to further divide the Dems?

    Sanders: Of course we knew.

    But you never said that … you used their crimes to defame Clinton & elevate your campaign

    You watched your surrogates go over to Stein & 🙊

    Not to puit to fined a point on it but he is as bad as Trump

    https://twitter.com/riotwomennn/status/964725438588342272

  39. 39
    Gvg says:

    It’s the uncompromising stance on gun rights that lead me to want to just repeal the 2nd. They want everything and fuck the rest of us. They keep thinking of new ways to scare the rest of us.
    They also keep saying take away rights from law abiding gun owners. I suspect that their are a lot who actually aren’t. A lot who can’t pass a back ground check or who are unsafe handlers.

  40. 40
    Matt McIrvin says:

    …Also, do expect mass shooters under an assault-weapons ban to move back to killing people with a hoard of six non-banned pistols or shotguns, and for people to argue that this means the assault-weapons ban is useless and the AR-15 Bushmaster needs to be re-legalized immediately.

  41. 41
    Chip Daniels says:

    We keep pounding the drum that there is no moral foundation for a “right” to own a gun in a modern civilized society.
    None.
    We challenge it, confront it, and refuse to back down one inch.
    The number of gun owners is declining, the number of hunters is declining.
    We work to marginalize gun nuts, making them like smokers, people who are tolerated but not encouraged.

    Once we get to a point where guns are seen as a privilege like dynamite and toxic chemicals, we win.

  42. 42
    Amir Khalid says:

    @germy:
    “But the danger of tyranny posed by the Federal government, which has all the guns, is why there’s a Second Amendment in the first place. And no local or state government in America relies on citizen militias anymore, so they won’t be asking civilians to keep a rifle handy. And without that rifle, how will freedom-loving citizens ever defend themselves when GI Joe comes busting down the door?”

    Did I get that response right?

  43. 43
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @KickBoxBanana:

    You people? You people?? WTF?

  44. 44
    Immanentize says:

    @d58826: I love one of the comments in that thread:
    “Impeach Bernie Sanders.”. The avatar for the tweeter is a smiling young blond woman. Yes, the kids are alright.

  45. 45
    MattF says:

    Also, the gun business is in a historic slump. When you-know-who was President, gun nuts went, well, nuts. Now, they feel a need to feed their families.

  46. 46
    Immanentize says:

    @Amir Khalid: Pretty much. And it has validity. But at least I for one am not calling on a total ban. Just Registration, licensing and insurance.

  47. 47
    Aleta says:

    Is the NRA paying for fake social media posts, fake supporters?

  48. 48
    CarolDuhart2 says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: Also it assumes that if it really happened, they would wait until you got your gun. As opposed to killing/other stuff immediately. And of course, you are not outgunned, and can see assailants clearly.

  49. 49
    germy says:

    @d58826: The old fraud got a bit flustered there for a minute, but he recovered nicely.

  50. 50
    Amir Khalid says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:
    I smell a troll.

  51. 51
    gene108 says:

    @germy:

    The 2nd Amendemnt is poorly worded and has led to interpretations that have landed us where are, wherein a minority of fetishists are dictating terms to the rest of society about how to live.

    This has gun beyond Bubba wanting to hunt a deer in the fall or Joe shooting at targets on the range for fun.

    I was willing to let Bubba and Joe have their hobbies. But we are no longer rational about guns.

    When I was a kid, in the 1980’s, Joe and Bubba could not conceal carry. If you were armed, in public, then you were going to be arrested, because it was assumed you were up to no good.

    Then the gun lobby sold conceal carry as a form of crime control. We couldn’t rely on the police, we had to take matters into our own hands.

    States at least had some requirements to qualify for a conceal carry permit.

    Gun free zones were eat up around schools, because people dealt drugs near inner city schools. If the cops couldn’t get the MS-13 gang member in drug charges, they could get them on gun charges for carrying in a gun free zone.

    But in response to school shootings, those have been rolled back, so now people can carry guns into schools, no questions asked.

    In the last 10 years, many states have gotten rid of even that minimal training for conceal carry permits. If you own a fun, you can take it anywhere you want, no questions asked.

    Joe and Bubba could have spoken up and said we don’t need guns everywhere, but as seen by the response to Obama’s election, wherein in response to rumors that the balck man would take away all the guns, there was a run on guns and ammo. There was a fucking ammo shortage in 2009, because enough Joe’s and Bubba’s decided to believe the crazy rumors and stockpile their guns and ammo.

    The gun lobby and gun owners have stopped even pretending to act responsiblely. They gin up conspiracy theories and use these to justify forcing us to have guns everywhere.

    They abrogated their right to bear as being irresponsible dickheads.

    The only way to make this unambiguous is to abolish the second amendment and ban gun ownership.

    The gunowners had their chance to be responsible advocates for reasonable gun policy, but chose to believe conspiracy theories instead.

    Fuck ’em.

  52. 52
    germy says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Did I get that response right?

    Yes, but I’m sure there were complaints from humpers in NZ and Australia.

  53. 53
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    It’s trollish language, certainly.

  54. 54
    Thoughtful David says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:

    their imaginary world, this is a realistic possibility you should guard against.

    True dat. But their whole world is imaginary. They’re all sure that eight people are going to break into their home while they’re in it, and that they will take them all out. They’ll flip through the air across an open doorway and get off three rounds, each one hitting one of the baddies right between the eyes, before they hit the ground. Then they’ll swing down the chandelier and pop off five more rounds, plugging the remaining five baddies.

    They all know that they’re better than James Bond*.

    Truth is of course, that you’ll never even have a chance. The bad guy knows what he’s going to do, and you don’t, so you’re always at a disadvantage.

    Unless you shoot at the first sign of anyone moving in the house. In which case you’ll find out you’ve just killed your daughter returning from a date.

    * Who by the way, is a fictional character in the movies. Which gives him several advantages for not getting himself killed.

  55. 55
    WaterGirl says:

    @Immanentize: Registration, licensing and insurance. All Democrats and reasonable people everywhere. Bumper stickers and magnets? Hashtag?

  56. 56

    @gene108:
    This all seems right. The only argument I would make, and it’s really more an embellishment, is that I think a lot of the lobbyists and almost all of the irresponsible gun owners believe their conspiracy theories.

  57. 57
    Honus says:

    @germy: an AR15 is a very poor weapon for home defense. It’s difficult to aim and shoot effectively in a confined space. It is also a high velocity round that will penetrate most residential walls and injure or kill innocent people in other rooms or even outside or in nearby homes. A shotgun is a much better and more effective choice. But it’s not nearly as good for attacking and shooting up a school. That’s pretty much what the Armalite is designed for.

  58. 58
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Chip Daniels: I agree with Mojrim ibn Harb over on Disqus: I want to see PSAs on TV like the anti-smoking ones, about how guns don’t make you safer. Don’t make the rational arguments (we have those already), hit the emotions. There are plenty of heartbreaking and graphic true anecdotes to choose from. This would also get to people’s reasons for buying not just military-style rifles but also handguns, which in absolute death-toll terms are a much bigger problem than assault weapons.

    Because for anything to happen, we need to swing the attitudes in the electorate first. I think that, contrary to appearances, Sandy Hook actually was a turning point. Nothing good happened legally, but that moment seems to have been the bottom in public support for stronger gun restrictions, after an at least 20-year decline, and from then on it began to rise. But any push we can exert helps.

  59. 59
    MattF says:

    @Aleta: What seems to be happening in social media is that Russian bots are pushing the false-flag theory– it never happened, the gummint is trying to take our guns away. I don’t think the NRA is claiming that, at least not in public.

  60. 60

    @Thoughtful David:

    Unless you shoot at the first sign of anyone moving in the house. In which case you’ll find out you’ve just killed your daughter returning from a date.

    And exactly that scenario happens, and happens way the Hell more often than a gang of robbers, rapists, and murderers breaking into people’s houses.

  61. 61
    Immanentize says:

    @Thoughtful David:

    Unless you shoot at the first sign of anyone moving in the house. In which case you’ll find out you’ve just killed your daughter returning from a date.

    Sadly this (or similar gun deaths of family members). Happens right here in America more than a home owner shooting a baddie

  62. 62
    Honus says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: I’m tired of hearing about the second amendment. It is not and never was about the right to self defense. The originalist intellectually dishonest hypocrite Scalia knew that.

  63. 63
    Immanentize says:

    @MattF: Russian bots = NRA. Just one degree of deniability.

  64. 64
    Amir Khalid says:

    @MattF:
    What will the NRA do for money and influence when the gun industry is flat broke?

  65. 65
    Immanentize says:

    @Frankensteinbeck: you type fast!

  66. 66
    BroD says:

    CHILDREN’S LIVES MATTER!

  67. 67
    MattF says:

    @Amir Khalid: I’d expect Republicans to find a way to subsidize them. There’s votes in them thar hills.

  68. 68

    @Immanentize:
    I hope so, I do it for a living. Supposedly. If my publisher will get off… ahem. Wrong thread for this.

  69. 69
    Aleta says:

    This thread, by Heather Booth

    Heather Booth
    @boothheather
    I have a thing to say about growing up after tragedy. When I was a senior in high school, 7 of my classmates were killed & 24 injured. It was an awful day full of fear, confusion, & pain. Press swarmed. News helicopters hovered overhead all day filming footage of the carnage. 1/


    29 recommendations were made by the NTSB and implemented from the local to federal level. Because this wasn’t a shooting. It was a train hitting a school bus. One train. One bus. Seven deaths. 24 injured. One year. 29 changes for 16 organizations.

    And as kids, here’s what this meant: we saw something awful happen, then we saw adults support us, then we saw them make change happen to keep that awful thing from ever happening again. Now, I’m an adult who grew up having seen adults fix things. 9/

    Think about the worldview we create for youth when their awful experiences result in nothing but hand wringing and despair. Thoughts and prayers. When a tragedy hits that’s far more deadly & far less accidental than what CGHS experienced in 1995 & *nothing* changes? 10/

    What kind of lifelong scars do we inflict on youth when the adults who are there to protect them don’t force change in the wake of preventable tragedy? What kind of foundation do we lay when their world breaks and no one fixes it? 11/

  70. 70
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Immanentize: Hear, hear.

    Among the things my father (a sports shooter and hunter who insisted someone eat anything killed hunting, whether diners were family, friends or a shelter/food bank) insisted I understand was that guns were valuable on the street and quite likely to be stolen. So they were kept in a gun safe. He believed that a gun owner was responsible for anything that happened with that gun, before or after ownership. So there is a duty to sell responsibly and
    safeguard guns while owned.

    I was also taught that a gun was more likely to be taken away from you and used against you unless you were highly trained, and thus they were mostly useless defensively by most people. He resigned from the NRA even before HW did, though obviously to less fanfare. My father joined when it was a sportsman group, and had no interest in its later iteration.

    But enough about me. I’d hoped we in the US wouldn’t have to see another mass school shooting this quickly, but that was in fact an unrealistic hope. I wish you all a nice weekend anyway.

  71. 71
    Teddys Person says:

    @Honus:

    It is not and never was about the right to self defense.

    So much this!! If you read the debates surrounding the amendment, they focus on who could be exempt from militia duty, particularly on religious grounds.

  72. 72
    KickBoxBanana says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: DILLUSIONAL.

    Your priorites are all screwed up. Like the getting rid of Franken thing. Rome is burning and some of you idiots think Franken should be gone…over basically nothing.

    Stupid!

    Further up someone else said “we need to start now”. Well whatever. You know what else you need to start doing. Getting dems elected. Not NOOO, let’s talk about reforming gun laws first….stupid.

  73. 73
    JMG says:

    @Amir Khalid: My solution for that argument is to take some of the Predator drones now blowing up weddings in Afghanistan and have them drop leaflets on the arguer’s home which read, “if this was a Hellfire missile you’d be dead now.” Of course what the arguer really means is “I fantasize about killing people I don’t like all the time, Don’t take that away from me.”

  74. 74
    MattF says:

    @KickBoxBanana: Say ‘hi’ to the pie filter.

  75. 75
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Immanentize: Thank you. @Tom: Exactly. We require cars be insured and they’re tools of transportation, which can be dangerous. But we don’t require tools designed to kill things be insured. Indefensible contradiction to my mind.

  76. 76
    Hoodie says:

    @germy: That’s kind of a “separate but equal” approach that usually never works. From a rhetorical point of view, abolition of the Second Amendment is a better option, even though you probably will never get there. You have to put gun nuts on the defensive by turning a significant portion of the population against gun ownership completely, just like abolitionists did with slavery after years of compromise with absolutist slavery advocates who wanted to expand slavery into Mexico, Cuba and pretty much everywhere. The people who have captured the meaning of the Second Amendment will never let it go. You have to create a narrative wherein an absolutist position against gun ownership is viewed as principled and not unreasonable, and that could be embodied by an honest, straightforward drive to abolish the Second Amendment. You’re already losing when you have to start each sentence with “I’m all for responsible gun ownership . . . ” or “I’m all for the Second Amendment . . . ” I’m not for the Second Amendment, because it is an anachronism that has no place in modern society and is completely unnecessary to secure individual freedom, as proven by scores of democracies across the planet that have no equivalent.

  77. 77
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @KickBoxBanana: We can’t do both? Are you that limited?

  78. 78
    Thoughtful David says:

    @Frankensteinbeck:
    @Immanentize:

    Which was why I used that example. The number of actual uses of a gun against a home intruder is microscopic compared to the number of “accidental” deaths.

    While it’s not that using a gun against a home intruder has never happened, the vast majority of cases where it’s even claimed turn out to be exaggerated at best.

  79. 79
    Honus says:

    @gene108: forget open carry. If you advocate keeping guns locked up in a preschool day care center, you are a gun grabber:

    “It’s senseless. My heart goes out,” Del. Thomas C. Wright Jr. (R-Lunenberg) said Thursday. “But when it comes to the constitutional right to defend yourself and your family, that’s something that’s guaranteed.”
    Wright chairs Subcommittee 1 of the Militia, Police and Public Safety Committee, which is where most gun bills go and never come back in the Republican-controlled House.
    This year his subcommittee has killed a host of bills, including one that would have required a minor to get parental permission before keeping guns in the home. It was sponsored by Del. Marcia S. “Cia” Price (D-Newport News) after a constituent complained about being unable to take away guns from a child who had fallen in with a bad crowd.
    Another bill would have required licensed home day-care facilities to keep guns locked up while children were being cared for. Sponsored by Del. Patrick A. Hope (D-Arlington), the bill came after a 4-year-old boy accidentally shot and killed himself with a gun he found at day care.
    Yet another would have let localities forbid the carrying of firearms or ammunition at major public events. That one, sponsored by Del. David J. Toscano (D-Charlottesville), was a response to last summer’s violent white supremacist rally in which militia members dressed like law enforcement and brandished weapons.
    House Majority Leader C. Todd Gilbert (R-Shenandoah) said it’s the Democrats who are unreasonable, because the logical extension of their position is that all guns should be confiscated.
    “What do they propose that they think would stop an incident like what happened in Florida?” Gilbert said. “If they’re saying that firearms are dangerous instruments and should not be available to people in a free society, then the logical conclusion is that . . . nobody gets to possess a firearm because it can be used for evil things.”
    Even modest bills, such as the proposal to lock up guns in a day care, are efforts to chip away at a fundamental constitutional right, Gilbert said: “The agenda toward taking firearms away from law-abiding people is ultimately insatiable.”

  80. 80
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Thoughtful David:
    If I’m not mistaken, MI6 has pointed out that a real-life guy like James Bond would never pass their candidate evaluation. Fleming, himself a former Royal Navy intelligence officer knew he was writing pure fantasy.

  81. 81
    WereBear says:

    There can never be a reasonable compromise on the gun issues, because they are not reasonable and they refuse to compromise.

    So. Be. It.

  82. 82
    Steeplejack says:

    @chris:

    I was going to make a snarky “Hur-hur, she said AK-15, so everything she sez is rong” comment, but then I thought, Christ, somebody probably already said that seriously in a reply to her tweet. Ugh.

  83. 83
    gene108 says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:

    We require cars be insured and they’re tools of transportation, which can be dangerous. But we don’t require tools designed to kill things be insured. Indefensible contradiction to my mind.

    That is because the 2nd Amendment has been defined to ban any and all regulations on preventing guns from being carried anywhere.

    As long as it exists there will be no way to enforce any gun laws. Requiring insurance will be met with many lawsuits that say it interferes with our right to unfettered gun ownership. And the current make up of the SCOTUS would agree, I am afraid.

  84. 84
    Amir Khalid says:

    @KickBoxBanana:

    DILLUSIONAL.

    Does this word signify your pickled sense of reality?

  85. 85
    Honus says:

    @germy: Yep. There is exactly one scotus decision recognizing an individual right to keep arms, and as I noted above, it a piece of shit with no basis in actual constitutional reasoning or history.

  86. 86
    chris says:

    @Steeplejack: Yeah, someone did. Always.

  87. 87
    MattF says:

    @gene108: FWIW, that’s not what Scalia said:

    Here is Justice Antonin Scalia, writing the majority opinion in District of Columbia v. Heller, in which the Supreme Court reversed a long-held position and ruled that the Second Amendment did give Americans an individual right to own firearms. The court said the District’s ban on handguns in private homes went too far, but that regulation of gun ownership was compatible with the Second Amendment:

    “We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. ‘Miller’ said, as we have explained, that the sorts of weapons protected were those ‘in common use at the time.’ 307 U.S., at 179, 59 S.Ct. 816. We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of ‘dangerous and unusual weapons.’”

  88. 88
    WereBear says:

    @Hoodie: From a rhetorical point of view, abolition of the Second Amendment is a better option, even though you probably will never get there. You have to put gun nuts on the defensive by turning a significant portion of the population against gun ownership completely, just like abolitionists did with slavery after years of compromise with absolutist slavery advocates who wanted to expand slavery into Mexico, Cuba and pretty much everywhere.

    But that did work.

    Gun owning in the Deep South was 1/4 “putting meat on the table” (in the case of the poor) and 150% fear of slave uprisings.

  89. 89
    Immanentize says:

    @Amir Khalid: aren’t you spicy today!

  90. 90
    Kelly says:

    @gene108:

    we had to take matters into our own hands.

    This is the fundamental fantasy behind most right wing policy. I’m a liberal because we’re all in this together. Keep your stick on the ice so you’re ready if the puck comes by.

  91. 91
    Thoughtful David says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    Yes, MI6 knows it, but a whole lot of the gun nuts don’t. They all imagine themselves as James Bond or Bruce Willis or whatever. They can all imagine themselves sliding across a wood floor on their knees while picking off a handful of bad guys at 100 m using a handgun. They’re heroes, don’t you know! Just like in the movies! They’ve seen it done a buncha times–sure they can do it themselves.
    They’re delusional.

  92. 92
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Villago Delenda Est: Whatever we’re talking about, it must be wrong.

  93. 93
    Immanentize says:

    @gene108: @MattF:
    Yes. But people — even in this thread — have internalized the right wing gloss on the actual law around the 2nd amendment. We could ban all weapons with magazines or clips without running afoul of Heller. And we could certainly require registration, licensing and insurance.

  94. 94
    gene108 says:

    @Honus: @Honus:

    “What do they propose that they think would stop an incident like what happened in Florida?” Gilbert said. “If they’re saying that firearms are dangerous instruments and should not be available to people in a free society, then the logical conclusion is that . . . nobody gets to possess a firearm because it can be used for evil things.”
    Even modest bills, such as the proposal to lock up guns in a day care, are efforts to chip away at a fundamental constitutional right, Gilbert said: “The agenda toward taking firearms away from law-abiding people is ultimately insatiable.”

    I agree with what Werebear said: @WereBear:

    There can never be a reasonable compromise on the gun issues, because they are not reasonable and they refuse to compromise.

    There is no point in compromising. They are not rational. Let their irrational fear and unwillingness to compromise create a self fulfilling prophecy of letting their fears come true.

  95. 95
    Immanentize says:

    Choose — your pleasure in unregulated gun ownership or our nation’s children.

  96. 96

    @gene108: The R base are the same way on all issues, from abortion to tax policy and everything in between. Like for example the immigration issue being discussed last week. Not only do they want the wall, but they want ICE to have power to deport people without any due process and cut legal immigration by 40% or more. I am glad that their plan didn’t win over all the Rs in the senate either.

  97. 97
    Baud says:

    @d58826: Ari is the only reporter I’ve seen who’s not playing favorites on this issue.

  98. 98
    GregB says:

    Bruce Bartlett wants to know why the Republicans in Congress haven’t removed the ban on weapons in the US seat of power?

    Shouldn’t they allow open guns at all of their public hearings?

    Perhaps a pledge?

  99. 99
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @KickBoxBanana:

    DILLUSIONAL.

    Your priorites are all screwed up. Like the getting rid of Franken thing. Rome is burning and some of you idiots think Franken should be gone…over basically nothing.

    Stupid!

    Further up someone else said “we need to start now”. Well whatever. You know what else you need to start doing. Getting dems elected. Not NOOO, let’s talk about reforming gun laws first….stupid.

    You don’t know the first goddamned thing about me or my priorities.

    Just so you know, I was opposed to running Franken out of the Senate without a proper ethics investigation and have said so many times in this forum and elsewhere.

    You seem to believe that “getting Dems elected” is a binary choice vs. gun control, DACA, racism and misogyny, affordable and available health care, education, voting rights, the environment, and the entire panoply of issues that are under daily assault from this President and Congress. Well, guess what, Kicky — the great majority of commenters here care about all these issues AND are fully and fiercely committed to getting Dems elected. We’re registering voters, volunteering for candidates at every level, donating money where we can, spending hours phonebanking and doorknocking and pollwatching, and doing all we can to flip the House in 2018 and retake the Senate and WH in 2020. So you can fuck right off with that “stupid” shit.

    Oh, and here’s some free advice: the word is spelled “delusional,” not “DILLUSIONAL.” Moran.

  100. 100
    dimmsdale says:

    here’s a link to a Nick Kristof column in the Times that covers the waterfront pretty nicely, and offers plenty of, er, ammunition for gun safety advocates. One surprising (to me) table shows the pretty near statistical agreement between gun households and non-gun households on various gun safety measures, giving me a fair amount of confidence that gun-safety advocates have the numbers; we just need the POWER (currently held by NRA stooges).

    Link: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/11/06/opinion/how-to-reduce-shootings.html?smid=fb-share

    No one safety measure by itself will necessarily be decisive, but taken together they could have a powerful effect. And if we keep the conversation going (hard to do with the daily onslaught of outrages from the “presidency”) I think the public will coalesce around commonsense gun safety measures.

    As to the home-invasion argument (always an attention-getter, in which the subtext is that the gun-wielding householder would always act heroically, purposefully and flawlessly in blowing away the invaders, as opposed to the grim reality that he often shoots his dog, wife, or kid)–better crime research and more intensive scrutiny on whether these kinds of arguments hold up (from a public-health/epidemiological perspective) would be incredibly useful.

    Finally, with a respectful nod to George Lakoff, I’m from now on using the framing ‘gun safety’ rather than ‘gun control’. Less likely to play into the rabid gun-nuts’ mean-ole-gummint fantasies.

  101. 101
    Baud says:

    @Immanentize: You know that’s an easy choice for the other side, right?

  102. 102
    Cermet says:

    And like mine, how many thousands had the terror of a false alarm (that everyone thought, at first), was real? And then had to endure a SWAT break ito their class room and be put under live guns, as well? I really feel the russians need to face the consequences – complete cyber attack upon their finance system and shut down of their banking system.

  103. 103
    Hungry Joe says:

    The fear of your home being broken into by armed lunatics who who intend to rape and kill is like the fear of sharks: Such attacks are so rare that they make huge headlines when they actually occur, but the prospect is so horrible that it makes it nearly impossible for people to do rational risk assessment. I once got into it with a guy on FB over home invasion; I quoted stats on how rare it is that people in their homes are murdered by strangers, how just having a gun in your home is dangerous, how rarely a gun does actually does any good, etc. His constant response: “Yeah, but what if somebody DOES break into your home and want to kill you? What about that?” Hopeless.

  104. 104
    germy says:

    WaPo:

    New White House security clearance policy could put ‘bull’s eye’ on Kushner

    White House Chief of Staff John F. Kelly said he plans to discontinue top-secret access for employees with long-standing interim clearances.

  105. 105
    Hoodie says:

    @Immanentize: The gloss around the Second Amendment has hardened and is what enables the endless new state laws that further expand the ability of idiots to carry guns anywhere. You aren’t going to scrape away that gloss by citing dicta from Scalia that, if you squint your eyes and make the right face, somehow says the Second Amendment does’t mean what the popular understanding of it means. The Second Amendment can’t be interpreted reasonably because the outer bound — no restrictions whatsoever — has become acceptable and has become the starting point for negotiation. Until you have a significant number of people who support repeal, which really would open the door to gun grabbing, they won’t back off of this position.

  106. 106
    Cermet says:

    The second amendment says clearly: a WELL REGULATED MILITIA! We absolutely have the right to limit the types of guns, the number, the magazines size , caliber and can licence and control all aspects.

  107. 107
    gene108 says:

    @Immanentize:

    Yes. But people — even in this thread — have internalized the right wing gloss on the actual law around the 2nd amendment. We could ban all weapons with magazines or clips without running afoul of Heller. And we could certainly require registration, licensing and insurance.

    You could try. I don’t trust the Republican Supreme Court to not use a challenge to the insurance ruling as another chance to advance the gun lobby’s agenda.

  108. 108
  109. 109
    germy says:

    On Tucker Carlson, Carter Page says "the only Facebook shenanigans that were happening with state-sponsored media" involved the U.S. gov't pic.twitter.com/iwrKsy825j— Judd Legum (@JuddLegum) February 17, 2018

  110. 110
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Kelly: I agree, it is THE fundamentalist fantasy: you would be rich if you had been able to keep your social security contributions and invest them yourself; your kid will be better educated if you take him out of “government schools”; and it goes on and on.

    The subtext is always, government is your enemy. We are drowning in Libertarianism.

  111. 111
    Gin & Tonic says:

    A few years back I switched homeowner’s insurance companies. Before they would write the policy, they sent an inspector to look at my water storage/pressurization tank (I have a well), at my furnace and oil storage tank, and required me to put a railing on the four steps down from the deck to the yard (anything over three steps requires a railing, apparently.) They did not ask whether I own any firearms. Since apparently there seems to be no civil liability for negligent discharge of a firearm (usually erroneously called “accidental”), but there is civil liability for a guest falling down my stairs, or me releasing fuel oil into the environment, this is sensible on their part. But we have to start with civil liability, IMO. IANAL, though – is that somehow a non-starter?

  112. 112
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: yes. Sadly I do. But…
    it heightens the distinctions!!!!

  113. 113

    @Baud: Funny because it is true.

  114. 114
    Chip Daniels says:

    Politics flows downstream of culture.
    When a culture exists that embraces the guns-everywhere-all-the-time mentality, legislators and judges follow suit.

    Once we break the back of that attitude, the political victories will follow.
    Even if all we did was restore the culture that saw guns as a dangerous but occasionally useful tool, we would win sensible gun control.

    But to get there we need to break that notion that God Hisself gave us the absolute unfettered right to carry a gun.

    Guns are a privilege not a right.

  115. 115
    HeleninEire says:

    Heartbreaking does not do justice to that mom’s statement. A few years ago at work (NYU) I had to go through “active shooter” training. It was presented by Vincent, the kindest, quietest, most gentle person I ever worked with.

    I left the training scared out of my fucking mind. I cannot imagine how children cope with this.

  116. 116
    germy says:

    Jill Stein hasn't tweeted or released a statement about the contents of Mueller's indictment.

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) February 17, 2018

  117. 117
    germy says:

    Happy Valentine’s Day, Glenn

    David Brock spent at least $1 million in 2016 for a bot army that attacked anyone criticizing Hillary Clinton, and he continues to employ people – at Shareblue & elsewhere – whose only job is to smear journalists or anyone else who criticizes Democrats https://t.co/zu9bGu6YRb— Glenn Greenwald (@ggreenwald) February 14, 2018

  118. 118
    grandpa john says:

    In regards to the Townsville SC shooting; the trial for the shooter started this week in Anderson, the county seat and will continue next week

  119. 119
    Immanentize says:

    @gene108: perhaps the Supreme Court would expand the right, but they are not (even the far out ones) as purely politically ideological as people assume. They are ideological in other ways for sure, but only Alito (and maybe Gorsuch, can’t tell yet) are ideological in the political Cleeks Law sense.

    The way to test this is have a state, like my Commonwealth, start seriously regulating firearms. So, it is a state issue to start, not a federal one. It is a long term legal strategy, but likely much more effective than “repeal the 2nd!” Is. Although both can happen at once, the latter opening an over tonight window.

  120. 120
    Ohio Mom says:

    Also, can’t these people who apparently live in deep fear of their homes being broken into spring for an alarm system already? Either that, or old fashioned therapy to exorcise those demons.

    I never gave it a moment’s thought before but if a person broke into our house, the smart move would be to take the cell, open the window, push out the screen, leave the house and call 911 — but then we live in a ranch. As it is now, it is only mice squirrels breaking in.

  121. 121
    gene108 says:

    @Hoodie:

    Until you have a significant number of people who support repeal, which really would open the door to gun grabbing, they won’t back off of this position.

    They won’t back off until a gun nut politicians lose elections for their position on guns. You can’t run on a pro-tobacco, let folks smoke where they want and bring back cigarette vending machines agenda.

    The gun nut position of any gun law leading to outright gun confiscation needs to be met with the same derision a pro-tobacco agenda would be met with today.

  122. 122
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @dimmsdale: The home-invasion argument really obviously does not hold up; research is fine, but it’s known that these sorts of attacks are quite rare, cases where the gun would help even more rare.

    It works because these people have a fantasy of a situation where they’re allowed to kill some bad guys of whatever variety they hate and become a hero. It’s wish-fulfillment. Hell, I have the fantasy sometimes about Trumpy fascist paramilitaries invading my neighborhood and I get to make the grim and bloody last stand and take a dozen of them with me as we all die in a glorious hail of bullets. It’s a bunch of bullshit, a video-game scenario.

  123. 123
    Baud says:

    @germy: “Oh no, they’re fighting back!”

    ETA: How does one get some of these Brock bucks?

  124. 124
    bystander says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    DILLUSIONAL

    It could have been worse. You could be THYMILLUSIONAL.

    Since “Putin’s Chef” is taken, can I change my moniker to “Putin’s Garde Manger”? Hope that’s not taken too.

  125. 125
    debbie says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    My brother has a gun and keeps it in a safe. He’s said many times he’d be shakiing too hard to key in the right combination. Points for being honest.

  126. 126
    MattF says:

    @Matt McIrvin: There’s a lot of crazy out there. Years ago, I knew a guy who kept a gun under his pillow– an ex-paratrooper who was always careful to stay a good distance away from open windows.

  127. 127
    hueyplong says:

    I would probably die of Schadenfreude if Greenwald were ever indicted.

  128. 128
    HeleninEire says:

    Also, too? I just had my orientation with Dublin City University. You know what the big “here is what may hurt you in the workplace” training was? How to lift a box using your legs, not your back. And I sit behind a desk all day.

    I. Shit. You. Not.

  129. 129
    Baud says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    Hell, I have the fantasy sometimes about Trumpy fascist paramilitaries invading my neighborhood and I get to make the grim and bloody last stand and take a dozen of them with me as we all die in a glorious hail of bullets. It’s a bunch of bullshit, a video-game scenario.

    Wolverines! Jackels!

  130. 130
    Aleta says:

    @gene108: That is because the 2nd Amendment has been defined to ban any and all regulations on preventing guns from being carried anywhere.

    I’m not well informed. But at the moment this is upheld, isn’t it?

    Maryland’s ban on “assault” weapons was passed after the 2012 mass shooting at a Newtown, Conn., elementary school.

    A district judge had cast doubt on the constitutionality of the law. But the full U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit in Richmond upheld the ban in a 10-to-4 vote.

    That court went further than other appellate courts that have reviewed similar laws, stating that “assault weapons and large-capacity magazines are not protected by the Second Amendment.”

    The majority opinion, written by Judge Robert B. King, refers to the banned firearms as “weapons of war” that the court says are most useful in the military.

    The Supreme Court on Monday declined to review a Maryland law banning the sale of semiautomatic guns with certain military-style features, similar to weapons used in recent mass shootings.

    Attorneys general in 21 states had asked the court to hear the Maryland case, and the National Rifle Association and other gun rights groups had joined the effort.

    -from WaPo Nov 27 2017

  131. 131
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Immanentize:

    Yes, I’ve always said, arming black people and putting them in black leather jackets and sun glasses is the surest path to gun control legislation.

    Well, maybe, but as a white guy I tend to back away from these statements; it’s a bit too “let’s you and him fight.”

  132. 132
    gene108 says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    Also, can’t these people who apparently live in deep fear of their homes being broken into spring for an alarm system already? Either that, or old fashioned therapy to exorcise those demons.

    I think a lot of people in this country want to shoot somebody, and be justified and not go to jail for doing it.

  133. 133
    Ohio Mom says:

    @debbie: Yes, points for honesty, and the smarts to think the situation through in advance.

    But really, even on a good day, it takes a minute or so to open a combination lock. Is that really the best use of time when seconds could count?

  134. 134
  135. 135
    Ohio Mom says:

    @HeleninEire: Just further proof that you are where you should be.

  136. 136
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @KickBoxBanana: Apparently you don’t read this blog very often. If ever.

  137. 137
    Immanentize says:

    @debbie: @Ohio Mom:
    I’ve told this story before about my friend, Kevin, in Austin Texas who got rid of his handgun because he realized every time he had some stressful issue in his life, he would think of his gun. Confrontation at work, he thought of his gun, argument with his girlfriend? Gun thoughts. He even said he thought of his gun when a dog pooped in his yard and the owner didn’t clean it up. He said he just didn’t want that violence in his head all the time.

  138. 138
    germy says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Well, well, well:

    “Kushner requests more intel info than almost all White House staff.”

    Maybe he thinks somewhere in all that intel info is an opportunity to dig himself out of his financial problems?

  139. 139
    debbie says:

    @HeleninEire:

    Refreshing to be reminded there are normal places in this world. Congratulations!

  140. 140
    Immanentize says:

    @Matt McIrvin: I’m just referring to history — California in the 60’s.

  141. 141
    Orange is the new Red says:

    Perhaps it’s the wrong place to say this, but I think school staff (teachers, etc.) are the actual first responders in school shootings, not police. I don’t think any of us thought we were signing up to be human walls between a gunman and our students.

  142. 142
    Baud says:

    @HeleninEire:

    How to lift a box using your legs, not your back. 

    Shouldn’t you be using your gun to lift boxes?

  143. 143
    Spanky says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: You are so generous! You’ve given the Russian troll something to put on his next performance appraisal. Not all of us would do that.

  144. 144
    germy says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    It works because these people have a fantasy of a situation where they’re allowed to kill some bad guys of whatever variety they hate and become a hero.

    “Then my wife would have to respect me!”

  145. 145
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Ohio Mom: There was a guy I used to follow on LiveJournal who talked a lot about his elaborate bedside gun-safe setup, optimized for rapid withdrawal, and how many times he’d rehearsed getting the gun out within seconds and aiming it at the gang of intruders he imagined busting into his bedroom. It was a really, really vivid picture in his mind.

  146. 146
    Kelly says:

    @Ohio Mom: The right wing nuts love their “We the People” T shirts. The actual people not so much.

  147. 147
    MattF says:

    @Baud: Right. “Pick up that box or I’ll shoot you.”

  148. 148
    germy says:

    @Baud:

    ETA: How does one get some of these Brock bucks?

    Visit mediamatters.org. Click the link on the bottom of the page: “Brock bucks” Your first payment should be direct deposited within a week.

    I made three grand last week after just a few weeks on my computer. My niece made five grand and bought a new Range Rover.

  149. 149
    mad citizen says:

    @gene108: “Our position should be just as uncompromising: outright gun confiscation and a ban on all private gun ownership.” Thanks Gene! This is what my comment was going to be. We need to put it out there nonstop: repeal the 2nd Amendment. If it ever gets close to happening, THEN we can talk about a common sense replacement, but it might well be a BAN.

  150. 150
    Immanentize says:

    @Steeplejack: I’ve wondered if Kelly’s new security clearance rule was payback for Jarvanka’s public campaign to push him put.

  151. 151
    WereBear says:

    @Immanentize: Cripes! Good for Kevin.

    That’s an insight to keep you awake…

  152. 152
    Immanentize says:

    @germy: information is valuable. Literally marketable.

  153. 153
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Immanentize: Good for him but it sounds to me like he needs to dig deeper. Why should so many things make him so angry?

    When I step in the poop my next door neighbor’s dog leaves behind and they didn’t clean it up (they manage to remove 90% of it on a timely manner), I just mutter “assholes” under my breath and I’m done. I can hardly remember it, which is why I don’t keep enough of an eye out.

    We live in a crazy culture that celebrates anger too much.

  154. 154
    Immanentize says:

    @Ohio Mom:

    Why should so many things make him so angry?

    Y chromosome?

  155. 155
    NCSteve says:

    @germy: Yeah, but what if there are 20? What if they’re all zombies and you don’t get perfect headshots with each bullet? Huh? Whutabout that? That’s why you need, absolutely need, a barely civilianized military weapon. Because zombies. Also, Them.

  156. 156
    WereBear says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Did he have a really really really narrow definition of manhood?

  157. 157
    Baud says:

    @germy: I’m quitting my job next week!

  158. 158
    MattF says:

    @Immanentize : Mae West: “Is that a gun in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?”

  159. 159
    WereBear says:

    @NCSteve: At least giant ants, you can hear them coming. And keep sugar in sealed containers.

  160. 160
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Immanentize: I know, but I wonder if it’s even true any more. There are African-Americans today embracing open carry and what we normally think of as right-wing anti-government memes; even some black “sovereign citizens”. The Dallas police shooter was one, and he even was able to complicate the search for him by doing it under cover of a protest at which there were black people open-carrying weapons. That incident didn’t seem to make anyone more enthusiastic about gun control–it just got Black Lives Matter (which was not even involved) labeled as a terrorist organization.

  161. 161
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Immanentize: I guess that is one of those jokes only members of the particular group being made fun of can make.

  162. 162
    NCSteve says:

    @Immanentize: At least he was conscious of it. Because that’s the thing about open or concealed carry laws. The kind of people who feel the need to carry a gun with them everywhere they go are the kind of people who are constantly running every single random thing that happens to them over the course of a day through a “is this the thing that validates my belief that I need to carry a gun everywhere I go? Is it? Is it?” And most of the time when they think “yes!” the answer is statistically most likely to be “NO!”

  163. 163
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Ohio Mom: You have squirrels breaking in? I’m slightly envious! I’ve only ever had mice and, once, raccoons.

    And I can’t imagine living in fear of an armed intruder. I’ve known a couple people who experienced that. They were criminals, and the armed intruders were people they knew; it was a criminal beef. That’s the kind of armed intrusions that happen.

  164. 164
    Immanentize says:

    @Baud: @MattF: @WereBear:
    I love BJ comments/commenters because they make me think, make me mad, and make me laugh out loud all in one thread. Thank you all.

  165. 165
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Matt McIrvin: I am beginning to wonder what a Freudian would say about this type of fantasy enactment. Or maybe I don’t..,

  166. 166
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @WereBear: Seemed to be fairly open-minded about such things, actually (he was also a furry). But had a one-track mind about “gun grabbers”.

  167. 167
    dimmsdale says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Agreed!! And yet there’s so much fantasy surrounding ‘the gun’ in our culture that is absolutely irrational and yet (to some) SO compelling. Partly, facts are paramount in dealing with the fantasy undercurrents surrounding gun ownership, which is why I think research and compiling of statistics as to whether and when (if ever) guns accomplish the fantasy goals adherents always assume they will, is so urgent. It strikes me as similar to helping a child over its fear of monsters in the dark; only in this instance we as a society are indulging thegun-nuts’ irrational and inchoate fears and fantasies that are getting our kids killed, and they either need to ‘come to Jesus’ on that score or be rolled right over by the majority will. (And numbers-wise, I think we do have the majority.)

    I also think there are rhetorical traps we sometimes get stuck in where you feel like you have to have an answer for every single “but what about…?” argument. WE DON’T. We just have to get the job done to protect our kids and ourselves from deliberate and/or accidental shootings.

    Please click on this link, it’s a chart in Kristof’s column showing areas of agreement on guns-safety policies, between non-gun households and gun-households. If the table is statistically valid, it’s pretty hopeful as a starting point.

    https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2017/11/03/kristof/dbae88923b67d13287877a28bcf0d52cc0aad772/guns9publicopinion-720.png

  168. 168
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @HeleninEire:

    You know what the big “here is what may hurt you in the workplace” training was? How to lift a box using your legs, not your back.

    Time for the Republic of Ireland to enact some box-control — excuse me, box-safety — rules. Rules with some teeth in ’em.

  169. 169
    germy says:

    @NCSteve:

    “SOS! Some of the teenagers who just went through that horrifying mass shooting in Florida are posting mean stuff about Guns! Mount up boys!” – a completely unsurprising amount of shitheads— Patrick Monahan (@pattymo) February 17, 2018

  170. 170
    Immanentize says:

    @Ohio Mom:
    Maybe true. But it was not just a joke as it is not too far from reality.

  171. 171
    Spanky says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Well, they already have a holiday. Boxing Day.

  172. 172
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: From what I’ve been able to gather, if you’ve had raccoons, that’s as good as having squirrels. Both are noisy and hard to get rid of. At least mice are quiet as mice.

    I have heard many times that the sorts of break-ins where people get shot in their own beds are usually cases of criminals evening the score. People must see these reported on the six o’clock news (I have not watched a local news show since I can remember) and miss that part of the story. And there is something in their psyches that is rewarded by feeling scared. But IANAP (pyschologist/psychiatrist).

  173. 173
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Spanky:

    Hahaha!

  174. 174
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @germy: Glenn Greenwald is a Varool.

  175. 175
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Actually I discussed this with the thankfully few gun owners I know. They were quite receptive to the idea of civil liability for negligently used or stored guns. They were more comfortable with insurance companies resticting access than the government doing so. Funny, they don’t LOOK libertarian.

  176. 176
    Kay says:

    The United States initiated an entire. massive policy of sealing the openings of OTC drugs based on the Tylenol tampering:

    In 1983, the U.S. Congress passed what was called “the Tylenol bill,” making it a federal offense to tamper with consumer products. In 1989, the FDA established federal guidelines for manufacturers to make all such products tamper-proof.

    Yet. Still. Nothing Can Be Done for mass casualty events. Except invent a phrase- “mass casualty events”

    I mean, come on. This is just bullshit. They don’t want to do anything about this. How do we know? Because there are many, many examples where they acted on much smaller problems, as far as numbers.

    Since we refuse to do anything about school shootings, let’s at least have the decency to tell students we’re not doing anything because we don’t want to. Tell them the truth.

  177. 177
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Baud:

    Guns don’t kill people. Boxes kill people.

    ***

    The only thing that stops a bad guy with a box is a good guy with a box.

  178. 178
    WereBear says:

    @Ohio Mom: I recently read a book about how badly we suck at assessing risk. The scarier the threat, the more outlandish the response, because we don’t have any previous experience with shark attacks or home invasions, or know anyone who has.

    It seems we really very heavily on emotional responses based on what has worked before. If we don’t have these two elements properly balanced and aligned, we do things like stay home for a Cat 5 storm (because all the previous, though smaller, storms didn’t come to much) or compile an arsenal in our basement (because we don’t know what will make us feel safe… nothing has yet.)

    Authoritarian minds? Worst of all.

  179. 179
    Kay says:

    It’s a real competition, but I think Matt Bevin wins for nuttiest far Right response to gun slaughters.

    Faced with regulating guns or regulating speech, Bevin chooses speech. He wants to ban violent video games.

    They will trade anything, anything, for the gun. The gun must be protected. The gun tells them what to do and every year it tells them it requires more sacrifices. There is NOTHING they will put ahead of the gun.

  180. 180
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @WereBear:

    The scarier the threat, the more outlandish the response

    One of my hobby horses here, maybe related to my early-career phase as a statistical analyst for insurance companies. Prime example: those people who are “scared of flying” yet drive to the airport. Commercial aviation deaths in the US in 2017: 0; motor-vehicle deaths: ~37,000.

  181. 181
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Ohio Mom: Like you, I don’t watch local news, so I have not a clue if those kind of events are reported. But I agree that there must be some folks who somehow get a reward response to fear, because there’s no other rational explanation for so many terribly fearful people.

  182. 182
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Immanentize:

    I’ve wondered if Kelly’s new security clearance rule was payback for Jarvanka’s public campaign to push him put.

    I wonder how far Kelly will get, though. Trump can just overrule him. Isn’t it pretty well established that any president can determine classification levels and access?

    (Course, if Trump did overrule Kelly, Kelly would resign, right? As a matter of principle, right?)

  183. 183
    HeleninEire says:

    @Spanky: LOL

  184. 184
    Fair Economist says:

    @CarolDuhart2:

    What “good guy with a gun” in the crowd below could stop a sniper several stories above?

    One of the performers actually had a gun with him, and realized it was useless because all he could do was shoot semi-random holes in the hotel.

  185. 185
    efgoldman says:

    @Immanentize:

    In my administrator life at at an urban University

    The one on Comm Ave or the one on Huntington Ave?

    Unfortunately, as you know well, truth, facts, and logic are liberal constructs and do not penetrate the RWNJ super-thick bomb-and-idea proof skull.

    How’s Immp doing these days?

  186. 186
    MattF says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: And, of course, if Kushner lost his access, there would be no chance for peace in the Middle East.

  187. 187
    germy says:

    Here’s the GOP Chairwoman:

    Instead of doing something to ensure Russians weren’t meddling in our elections, President Obama laughed at the suggestion that Russia was our biggest geopolitical foe.— Ronna McDaniel (@GOPChairwoman) February 17, 2018

  188. 188
    Fair Economist says:

    @Matt McIrvin:

    here was a guy I used to follow on LiveJournal who talked a lot about his elaborate bedside gun-safe setup, optimized for rapid withdrawal, and how many times he’d rehearsed getting the gun out within seconds and aiming it at the gang of intruders he imagined busting into his bedroom.

    My brother has the same fantasy. Keeps a loaded assault rifle next to his bed. He lives in this upper middle class planned community where the chance of a home invasion is close enough to zero you’d need advanced math to describe it. I’ve pointed out that the only people he’d ever shoot that way are his own children or their friends, by accident, to no avail.

    No, I don’t like to visit. I mean, I *would*, but I don’t sleep well and I don’t want to die.

  189. 189
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @Steeplejack: They used to emphasize on a near daily basis that when you share information with someone, they not only need the right clearance but somebody can vouch for their need to know. And “need to know” with sensitive stuff is not just somebody calling you up and saying, “yeah, he’s cool.”

    I guess like all other rules, that rule doesn’t apply to Jared and people in this WH.

  190. 190
    efgoldman says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Did I get that response right?

    Were you REALLY only in the US for a few weeks?
    You ought to write a book. Seriously.

  191. 191
    Corner Stone says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Guns don’t kill people. Boxes kill people.

    Sure, that’s where it starts. But if you start regulating box size and weight, what’s next? Are you coming for the guy who drives the forklift moving the boxes? The truck driver delivering the boxes? Then regulations for standardizing people’s porches so the boxes all fit? MADNESS!
    No. No! You can have this box when you can pry it from my rickety arthritic hands. Moulin Rouge!

  192. 192
    Corner Stone says:

    @Fair Economist:

    My brother has the same fantasy. Keeps a loaded assault rifle next to his bed. He lives in this upper middle class planned community

    He comes out of a deep sleep at 4AM and starts perforating the neighborhood his fantasy will quickly come to fruition.

  193. 193
    Baud says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: You can have my box when you pry it from my cold, dead hands.

  194. 194
    Fair Economist says:

    @Corner Stone:

    He comes out of a deep sleep at 4AM and starts perforating the neighborhood his fantasy will quickly come to fruition.

    Good point. He’s in a small-yard house so were he to shoot he would indeed be ventilating his neighbors’ houses. I’ll mention that next time.

  195. 195
    Corner Stone says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:

    Like you, I don’t watch local news, so I have not a clue if those kind of events are reported.

    I don’t either, primarily because they truly do follow the, “if it bleeds it leads” motto. And in the Greater Houston Metro Area you have plenty of bloody crap to fill your half hour.

  196. 196
    efgoldman says:

    @KickBoxBanana:

    Rome is burning and some of you idiots think Franken should be gone…over basically nothing.

    Hey look! It’s the shomi troll

  197. 197
    rk says:

    I have neighbors who believe that no one should have guns, in fact guns should be taken away from everyone. Plus they’re extremely pro environment. But guess what? They’re staunch republicans. Their logic is that they vote republican because their parents voted republican. What can democrats do with such people? What can anyone do with such morons? What can anyone do in a country full of dimwits who literally vote for people who are against their ideology? When white Americans love their children more than they hate non whites then something may change.

  198. 198
    pamelabrown53 says:

    @Gelfling 545: #174.

    Even if your “friends” are libertarian(!) they just might be right re: outcomes. Insurance companies exist to make money. They’ll hire people to deny claims and lobby to close loopholes. Their regulations just might be more stringent than those imposed by legislators (politicians). Hmmm…maybe if we could interest the NRA and gun manufacturers in offering insurance policies as a new source of revenue, we might be on the way to solving this horrific problem. Find a way to make more $$$ in a saturated market? Sounds like a no-brainer: guarantedd income ad infinitum.

  199. 199
    James E. Powell says:

    @KickBoxBanana:

    I haven’t seen your name around before. You seem like a very nice person. Your idea about getting more Democrats elected is pretty interesting. No one around here has thought of that one.

  200. 200
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @efgoldman:

    Hey look! It’s the shomi troll

    I knew it sounded familiar, but couldn’t put a nym to it. Thanks!

  201. 201
    Corner Stone says:

    @rk:

    I have neighbors who believe that no one should have guns, in fact guns should be taken away from everyone. Plus they’re extremely pro environment. But guess what? They’re staunch republicans. Their logic is that they vote republican because their parents voted republican. What can democrats do with such people?

    Probably my single greatest regret of the Obama admin was that he failed to constitute the long promised FEMA Education Camps.

  202. 202
    efgoldman says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    They did not ask whether I own any firearms.

    The only person who ever asked me was my primary care doc at my annual physical, part of a list of questions including alcohol use, seat belt use, danger of abuse in the home, etc

  203. 203
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Baud:

    This is my rifle
    And this is my box.
    One is for CNN,
    One is for Fox.

  204. 204
    Doug R says:

    @KickBoxBanana: Blue Wave’s Coming

  205. 205
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Baud:

    Ethel Merman in Annie, Get Your Box.

  206. 206
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @MattF:

    Not to mention, there goes any progress on the opioid crisis!

  207. 207
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Spanky:

    I’m all heart. I give, and I give, and I GIVE….

  208. 208
    Immanentize says:

    @efgoldman:
    Neither. I WENT to the Harvard of Huntington Avenue for law school — the only Montessori Law School in the country. Now I WORK at the Stanford of Tremont Avenue….

    The Immp is doing pretty good. It is the height of the FTC robotics season. His team will be competing in the Vermont State Championship by invitation and they also qualified for the Mass State Championships — on back to back weekends…. So, busy. He is also happily playing online FPS games with his friends.

  209. 209
    Jerzy Russian says:

    @Baud:

    I’m quitting my job next week!

    Huh? I assumed you are unemployed like the rest of us.

  210. 210
    Darrin Ziliak (formerly glocksman) says:

    IMHO, a ban on AR-15’s and other assault style rifles is pretty useless.

    I say that because the “tacticool” cosmetic features aren’t what make the AR or similar weapons so useful to nut jobs.

    My personal opinion is to ban detachable magazines with a capacity greater than 5 or 10 rounds, with the sole exception of magazines for .22 rimfire rifles.

    A wood stocked .223 Browning semiautomatic with 30 round detachable magazines is just as effective as an AR when it comes to mowing down large groups of people.

    Ban the mags.

  211. 211
    efgoldman says:

    @Immanentize:

    The Immp is doing pretty good.

    I’m really glad to hear it. Kids can go to bad places when they lose a parent (as can spice). Having a really immersive activity (band, drama, chess club, robotics) is a huge positive.

  212. 212
    Ruckus says:

    @Ohio Mom:
    I’ve lived in cities most of my life and really don’t worry too much about break ins. Maybe because I live in blue CA. My business was broken into once, but never when it was in the shitty part of LA for 28 yrs, only when in the suburbs. The very dramatically whiter suburbs. My houses? Never. My friends houses? Never.
    In fact, how many people here have had a break in at their house? While at home or away.
    How many people have been robbed/mugged on the street?
    Ever. Or in the last 20 yrs.
    We know this happens, but crime is down so how common is this really?

  213. 213
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: Yes. When I was a kid, some people who lived around the corner in our white-bread suburb were shot by intruders in their home. And just last year, a high-school kid a few blocks away from here was murdered by someone who knocked on his door and shot him when he answered it. In both cases, those were not random incidents. The victims knew the shooter; there was some sort of organized-crime angle.

  214. 214
    akryan says:

    I’ve done ALICE training in my high school. We’re supposed to barricade the door and if the killer gets through that we’re supposed to try to fight the guy. I have a big metal pipe in my room now for that. I have a small side office in my class filled with all sorts of shit. So the plan is for the boys and I to fight, and for the girls to lock themselves in the office with the lights off. I went through the situation with the kids again this week after the FL shooting. It’s fucked that I have to take classroom time to teach kids how to fight a guy spraying bullets.

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