Trump’s minions have announced that it’s “Infrastructure Week” again and released a delusional budget, which can only mean that a scandal is about to erupt that will kick all policy discussions clear outta the news cycle (my preferred option), or the immigration debate will move forward in some material way that will enrage all parties and make talk of infrastructure impossible. The latter seems more likely.
To recap, here are the “four pillars” Trump laid out after flipping and flopping like a beached large-mouth bass prior to the first shut-down:
1. A path to citizenship for 1.8M DREAMers
2. A border wall with Mexico and increased funding for Border Patrol
3. Ending the diversity visa lottery
4. Banning US citizens from sponsoring their adult children, parents, and siblings for green cards
To filter the issue through the lens of the Last Honest Man’s View From Nowhere, here’s Politico reporter Marc Caputo’s take on the current standings, in response to polling that shows the majority of Americans oppose Trump’s immigration proposal:
At a certain point, it’s going to dawn on Democrats and the immigrant-rights community that Republicans control all three branches of government now and all their attacks on Trump and immigration hardliners will do nothing to stop deportations
— Marc Caputo (@MarcACaputo) February 12, 2018
Interesting how that works, huh? Trump don’t give a fuck what the country thinks about immigration. Republicans control all three branches of government. So, are Democrats just going to stand idly by while DREAMers get deported?
But as maddening as that framing is, there’s truth to it because Americans may oppose Trump’s hard line on immigration, but not enough to make him and the GOP pay for it, at least not in the short term. On a visceral level, if not numerically, the GOP base understands that significantly curtailing LEGAL immigration will keep the country whiter, longer.
Non-MAGAt Americans may not be on board with the last-ditch effort to extend the white majority — just as they’re not on board with allowing the NRA to run domestic firearms policy — but, as in the gun safety case, they don’t seem to care enough to make immigration a major priority. I think we found that out during the first shut-down.
So, what to do? I can’t be objective about the DREAMer issue because it affects a family member. But my preference is for the Democrats to try to negotiate concessions on the “four pillars” — they should shoot for a better deal for DREAMers and try to expand the cruel family unification restrictions proposed by Trump, bringing them more in line with the immigration policies that built this country.
But if they can’t get anything, I hope they concede and protect the DREAMers. I firmly believe it will hurt the country if the GOP gets its way, but we’re screwed in the short term with these clowns in the driver’s seat regardless. Might as well try to salvage something positive, then work to repair the damage once Trump is ousted.
What do you think?
schrodingers_cat
So you want to go back to the policies of the Reed-Johnson act, i.e. slash legal immigration in perpetuity by 40 to 50% to save 800,0000 Dreamers. BTW most Dreamers are against this
Yutsano
CBP already had a massive funding increase for agents in the FY2017 budget. They just can’t get any actual hiring authority from anyone. So why does the Border Patrol need more funding if they can’t fill the slots they have now?
Also: the wall can be massively slow-walked. I’m talking eminent domain fights all along the projected route. Give him a token amount for that to save the DREAMers. I’m okay with that.
And fuck the “chain migration” bullshit. There is zero reason to change that other than keeping whitey happy.
TenguPhule
Compromising with Nazis never ends well for the other side.
Just saying.
schrodingers_cat
What about the people waiting in immigration queues do we tell them to go fuck themselves too?
Anonymous At Work
I think voters have issues generally but only vote on limited issues to the extent that they vote on issues and not tribalism. The extent to which Paid Professional Real Journalists recognize that fact is extremely limited and is not captured in polling well or at all (cough cough Nate pay attention cough cough).
schrodingers_cat
@TenguPhule: Agreed 100%
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: Can’t see any point in responding to question(s) asked with such bad-faith framing.
BGinCHI
I don’t disagree, Betty, as the Dems are holding a shitty hand of cards right now.
What I do think is really important is that the Dems manage the crescendo of anger and outrage over the summer and into the fall so that the midterm wave is GIGANTIC.
That is the only way to reverse what has been done, especially on the policies the GOP have pursued that are very unpopular in polling. Once they lose the House, and maybe Senate, they’ll quickly fall into line because they are fucking cowards and only want to keep their seats.
Question is: how to get better protections for Dreamers while keeping the outrage going for voter turnout.
TenguPhule
@schrodingers_cat:
Apparently so, according to our wiser heads.
Of course, I thought conceding more funding to these assclowns last week was supposed to fix that, but I guess I was wrong and we just gave up more leverage for jack shit.
No Drought No More
As We The People must begin to think and speak anew in these days of Trump, I submit we should no longer call it “election day”. After Trump, is would be much wiser to refer to it as “judgement day”.. Similarly, voter rolls would be called Judgement Rolls, and campaign financing laws would be known as Judgement Laws. It’s got a better ring to it all ’round…
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Why is it bad faith, I am repeating what you are saying. You want the Dreamers to become citizens and everyone else can go pound sand.
ETA: I want a path to citizenship for the Dreamers but not at the price the Rs are asking.
TenguPhule
@BGinCHI:
Well they sure don’t seem to be doing a very good job of it this year.
The problem with running on an anger and outrage platform is that your side has to be seen actually fighting the good fight against the bad guys, otherwise that anger will threaten to spill over and turn on your own.
So far the optics have been less then optimal for us.
TenguPhule
@No Drought No More:
No, that name’s reserved for when Trump launches the nukes.
Nov 7, The Day Democracy Died.
Arclite
The irony is that the laws you need to pass to encourage European (white) migration is all the things that Republicans oppose: stronger safety net, universal healthcare, more mandatory vacation, etc.
Mathguy
I really hate the framing of this. “Chain migration” rather than family reunification? Lakoff has it right about the failure of progressives to get this right, and the MSM rolling over for the RWNJ framing of issues.
TenguPhule
The Dreamers are already dead (legally speaking). The GOP are killing the hostage by inches. We can’t save them.
Only avenge them.
BGinCHI
@TenguPhule: Agreed.
I don’t know how best to do it, but it has to be a strategy. It can’t just be a hope.
And I don’t think it should be “an anger & outrage platform.” Dem voters are smarter than that and will respond to actual, concrete policy positions that make it clear the GOP is wrecking the things important to them.
Feels, though, that in the wake of Obama and Clinton, there’s a leadership vacuum. Someone needs to take the party by the scruff of the neck and get ready for November. Let 2020 go for now.
Another Scott
This is the bottom line for me. We won’t get a good bill out of Trump and the Teabaggers, we can only affect it at the margins because we are in the minority.
The best we can do is maintain a clear difference between the parties (no “bipartisanship” cover for bad bills, no “they’re both the same” ammunition), continue to fight for public opinion in the public square and in the courts, vote them out in November, and start rolling back the broken policies come January 2019.
Lots of people will be (and continue to be) hurt by Trump’s policies. We can’t fix it until we have the majority again.
Cheers,
Scott.
Betty Cracker
@schrodingers_cat: Nope, that’s not what I said. I’ll be ignoring you for this thread.
Major Major Major Major
@No Drought No More: A bit Millenarian, no? Then again, Americans do love that sort of framing…
Ryan
It’s so hard to keep the meltdowns straight, but didn’t the last infrastructure week leave the administration a smoking cinder by Friday? Wasn’t that Comey/London mayor week?
TenguPhule
@BGinCHI:
No. A portion of them are smarter then that. The ones who vote on and off year.
The rest of them, not so much. Between the purity ponies and the lazy asses, only primal emotions can prod them into action.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
Betty, have you seen the shit sandwich being proposed by the Republicans to “save” the Dreamers?
BGinCHI
@TenguPhule: I’d agree about this if it were 2014, but not in 2018.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: Ignoring me won’t change what you stated. You want the Ds to give into blackmail by the xenophobe in charge to save the Dreamers.
Betty Cracker
@Arclite: True, but I don’t think they’re even trying to increase white immigration—just curtail ALL immigration. They’re already making this a shithole country that Western Europeans are avoiding, as I pointed out to my Trumper father when he complained about the drop in tourism that’s hurting his business.
It’s all of a piece, which is why I noted that cutting immigration will hurt the country. My question is, do we save the DREAMers and then try to repair the damage? Gum up the works as best we can while Trump unleashes ICE? It’s not an easy choice, IMO.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
There’s some truth in this. When Mitch McConnell refused to bring a clean bill to the floor, DACA supporters marched to Chuck Schumer’s house– seems to me there’s another politician with a residence in NYC. When Paul Ryan did the same thing, protestors went Nancy Pelosi’s office. Dean Heller should be terrified of this issue, mealy-mouthed do-nothing hypocrites like Rubio and Gardner running away from cameras. I don’t know the demographics on House districts, but it’s hard for me to imagine there aren’t a lot more useful targets for protests than yelling at Democrats for not finding extra-constitutional magic tricks.
Yutsano
@Major Major Major Major: I don’t care what the day gets called. I only care that it finally becomes a federal holiday so people can actually take the time to vote.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: I have, and it sucks, but the DREAMers I know are desperate to stay in the only home they’ve ever known and fight for a better deal later. Also, it’s possible the Democrats can negotiate a better deal for them, as I mentioned in the OP.
MJS
@schrodingers_cat: Man whose house is on fire: “Please help, my wife and son are in there!”
Firefighter: “I’ll only be able to carry one of them out. Who should I get?”
Man: “My God, what a horrible choice! Get my son, please.”
Firefighter: “Oh, so you want your wife to die. Okay.”
That’s why your question was in bad faith.
schrodingers_cat
@Betty Cracker: The damage done by Bill Clinton’s signing of 1996 immigration act has not been mitigated. If this becomes law then it won’t change in my life time or yours.
Mary G
I think the Dems are doing what they can with what they have. The Republicans would rather no bill passes to resolve their dilemma of losing primaries for “giving amnesty to 1.8 million criminals” or going extinct like they are doing here in California because the rest of the population thinks they are white supremacists.
Suzanne
@Betty Cracker: I’m with you, I think. At least get SOMETHING out of the deal.
It’s not like we are presented with good options here.
Brachiator
I hate that Trump is Sophie’s Choicing the shit out of this.
The Republicans say they want to help the Dreamers. Make them prove it. BTW, this might be one of the few times that the GOP would not simply give Trump what he wants.
Trump’s policy agenda is racist and vile. There is no reason to compromise with it.
Some Dreamers may be hurt. This might include people close to me. But right now, they are ok with that. Obviously things might change if shit gets real for them later on.
ETA. I think some Dreamers are in the military. Their commanders want them to stay. The Democrats should use this against Trump. Go at him hard with it.
Chris
I love the framing. “Republicans control all three branches of government! Now let’s talk about how Democrats suck.”
eric
@Suzanne: so long as liberal/left voters are understanding about compromise…..
Yutsano
@Mary G: If one does not wish to be perceived as a white supremacist, one should probably stop doing things that enforce the perception of one being a white supremacist. The Republicans are tying their hitches to white fear. Time for them to live with the consequences of that decision.
This does also mean they will be a force for quite some time. A lot of whites exhibit race anxiety even without being aware of it.
Major Major Major Major
@Yutsano: But of course. It would also help underscore voting as something important, perhaps even one’s duty.
randy khan
I don’t think that the Administration’s position actually is relevant. What’s relevant is what can pass the Senate (first) and then the House. Trump very likely will sign any bill that’s put on his desk, and if by some chance he refuses, then the blame falls on him.
And people who keep saying the Dems need to remember that the Republicans control all three branches of government apparently aren’t paying much attention now and didn’t pay much attention in 2009-10. (Also, actually the Republicans control the Presidency and both houses of Congress, not all three branches of government – didn’t these people learn anything in high school?)
Jeffro
Betty, all I know is this: at the ends of the day (i.e., Novembers 2018 and 2020), the last thing I want is for Republican filth, from president* abuser-in-chief on down, to be able to say that Democrats went along with them on their hateful, mindless, bits of insanity. Any of it.
– Massive tax cuts for corporations and the rich? NO
– Massive spending-for-the-sake-of-spending? NO
– Ending DACA/deporting immigrants and Dreamers? NO
– Bullshit “infrastructure” plans that are really just privatization plans? NO
I mean seriously, Fuck. It. They’re the ones with the WH and majorities in Congress. Let them pass whatever they want and own the consequences without being able to blur the differences.
We are already looking at huge D turnout this coming fall almost no matter what happens. Why do anything to diminish that, and why do anything to give the blessed “independents” something to hang their bad ‘both sides’ arguments on?
So no…I hope the Dems stay as united as possible, speak out, and oppose any & everything they find unacceptable. That’s what an opposition party is supposed to do.
Mnemosyne
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
And this is why “progressives” suck. They blame Democrats for everything that’s wrong with the government, even when it’s the Republicans driving the car. It’s like arresting the drunk driver’s spouse for not stopping him from driving.
Yutsano
@Jeffro:
Agreed. Paulie Boy has his majority. He already knows he can’t use it. Let’s see what happens.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
Betty, a year in and you still want to try and normalize this? There are no better deals here. The Republicans are lying Nazis who are going to kick out the Dreamers because its what they are.
Our chance was the shutdown, obviously the fucking nation couldn’t be bothered to support the rational side so here we are.
Irony Abounds
I really think you overestimate how much Americans support immigration in general and Dreamers in particular. I know in general the polls are generally supportive of immigration, but I also know Trump’s numbers improve whenever the focus is on immigration. To many white Americans, immigrants are the “other” and they view “others” as taking their jobs and ruining the culture. I hope I’m wrong and there will be pushback from a majority of Americans if Dreamers start getting deported, but I’m not holding my breath.
Suzanne
@Mnemosyne:
Yes. Their politics are solid, but their strategery is all FUBAR. They seem to think that there is some way to get everything they want when they are out of power.
They do not grasp that the best that we can do at certain points in history—like this one—is to hang on and not lose ground.
Major Major Major Major
@randy khan: Republicans control the Supreme Court. ETA is what they mean; I know that the supreme court is not the entire judicial branch
Gin & Tonic
@randy khan: Oh, Democrats are in the majority on the Supreme Court now? I haven’t been paying attention.
daryljfontaine
Off topic: Matthew Dessem at Slate manages to nail the scourge of our Fourth Estate.
I Am the Very Model of a New York Times Contrarian
D
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Ahem, when you’re not “seen” fighting the good fight, the anger turns on your own. Pelosi was better at it then Schumer, but the optics are terrible (partly do to the fucking media adopting GOP framing without a second thought) but also because Pelosi and Schumer are risk-adverse, which is fine when things are normal, but things are not normal these days.
satby
@Betty Cracker: I was one of only two Americans on my recent team in SE Asia, and was told by more than one Canadian or UK citizen that they had no desire to visit the U.S. any longer, though some had always wanted to. Random massacres, empowered neo-Nazis, and a willfully ignorant and insane administration all have consequences.
schrodingers_cat
@Jeffro: I agree with this. Let the Rs do it on their own. Don’t give them cover.
I am not being a purity pony. Betty wants to trade away the ability of naturalized citizens ( I am one) to sponsor their parents for the vague promise of a path to citizenship for Dreamers.
BTW the ability to sponsor siblings is useless for the most part because the minimum wait for a sibling visa is 14 years, right now.
Mnemosyne
@daryljfontaine:
Man, when Slate is roasting you for being a knee-jerk contrarian.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
And they’re stuffing the Courts of Appeals wherever they can as fast as possible.
This has been underremarked by the media.
Betty Cracker
@randy khan: Ryan has already said he won’t bring a bill up in the House unless he knows Trump will sign it — he’s basically ceded his job to a loopy dilettante. So, what I hope happens is that the Senate can hammer out a compromise that protects the DREAMers and makes the least concessions possible on the rest of Trump’s odious proposals. Schumer already offered money for the stupid, racist wall in exchange for protecting the DREAMers, which is a good deal in my book — it can be slow-walked and torn down. Maybe they can try that again. Who knows? Trump might go for it. He has no firm policies, obviously, aside from latching onto something he can claim as a “win.”
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: This is something that bothered me about protests from the left for a while. After the inauguration they shut down traffic in Downtown LA(including several freeways), wouldn’t Trump’s golf course in Palos Verde be a much better and more symbolic choice?
kindness
Those 4 Trump pillars though. Why do Democrats have to be the one negotiating pillars even Republicans don’t like? Specifically what Trump calls Chain Migration. Republicans have said they don’t want to limit American citizen’s ability to sponsor family members. So why would this require only Democrats to ‘negotiate’?
daryljfontaine
@Mnemosyne: Totally missed that Cole had a front-page post highlighting it on Saturday. Long winter’s nap, and all that.
D
Brachiator
@Suzanne:
Sometimes SOMETHING is nothing.
There is no reason for the Democrats to accept or select from what they have been presented. Come up with a counter proposal.
randy khan
@Major Major Major Major:
Most importantly, in context he’s clearly referring to the White House, Senate, and House.
But also, people generally don’t talk about parties controlling the courts in places without judicial elections, in part because they’re supposed to be nonpartisan. In practice, right now Republican appointees are a majority on the Supreme Court and Democratic appointees are a majority on the federal Courts of Appeal, which is where the overwhelming majority of appeals generally get decided. The Supreme Court takes a tiny fraction of the cases that come its way, and those cases represent a small fraction of the cases decided by the appeals courts every year, so it’s not really right to talk about the courts as if the Supreme Court is all that matters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I believe it was in AZ that a thirty year-old father of a five year-old with leukemia was arrested and is going to be deported. In Chicago a vet with PTSD from two tours in Afghanistan is facing deportation. There are horror stories every other day, while trump talks bout MS-13 and alleged pro-immigration Republicans talk about Wal-Mart bonuses.
The Simp in the Suit
I do wonder at the protestors who go after Pelosi or Schumer or any other Democrat. What exactly do they think will happen? No Democrat is in a position to even call a hearing on what name to put on the next Post Office.
If you’re going to mob someone at their office or home, how about mobbing the people who are in power? Sure they’ll ignore you, but at least you’ve inconvenienced them.
barb 2
Fight dirty.
Return the “first’ lady’s parents etc to the s***hole they came from.
Remind everyone that “returning” to sender applies to her family as well.
Fight dirty. She married the orange monster — and he fights dirty. Why are her parents here??
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
Paul Ryan is a lying liar who lies. Repeat this as needed until it sinks in.
As Adam noted, anything acceptable to the Senate is DOA in the House.
But you’re not a Republican. Their offer is “I will fuck you over and you will like it.” The only negotiation is over whether they use a rubber or not.
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: In the fall I plan on supporting the democrat who can undo some of the damage the republicans are doing. Right now, I want the dreamers protected…..
sherparick
My answer is no. To pass Trump’s proposal concedes the whole prize, for what is a bad faith offer (look at the details – DACA will have to wait 10-12 years for citizenship and could lose their status before citizenship for failure to meet certain requirements in areas like education, employment, and “good moral character (traffic tickets?).” Look at the rules for revoking green card status if an immigrant uses WIC, SNAP, CHIP, Medicaid, that will likely be used to trip up DACA and Dreamers and will be used aggressively to take away legal status and deport.
Ending family reunification and reducing refugee quotas (when they should be increased) are inhumane proposals in themselves. Also, so called merit based immigration will not work if people cannot bring over their family members.
Remember, the Trumpistas goal here is not a noble one. It is about maintaining “white supremacy” and reducing the the kind of people they see more likely to vote for liberal and social democratic programs and against “capital supremacy.”
Mass civil disobedience and protests are what are needed to protect all immigrants, including DACA.
What we are seeing with Trump, McConnell, and Paul Ryan is the enactment of the Radical Conservative society. Along with Rick Perlstein’s history of the Conservative Movement, finally found a book that explained the Trump movement, the union of Capital Supremacy and White Supremacy, A great quote:
“..I think it’s also much more about this psychology of threatened domination. [Ryan, Trump, Miller, Ingraham, Charles Koch, etc. are] People who believe it will harm their liberty for other people to have full citizenship and be able to work together to govern society….” @TenguPhule: @TenguPhule: @TenguPhule: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/2017/06/james_mcgill_buchanan_s_terrifying_vision_of_society_is_the_intellectual.html
TenguPhule
@The Simp in the Suit:
That the Democrats will shut it down and keep it shut. Its not exactly rational, but its not completely insane either.
But mobbing the Democratic leadership might get them to do what the mob wants. 1% chance is better then 0% mobbing a Republican would.
JPL
@Brachiator:I previously read that there about 900 undocumented serving.
Mnemosyne
@TenguPhule:
Yeah, screw Pelosi’s 8-hour immigration filibuster. It didn’t magically make the Republicans break down and sob about how terrible they are, so we need to protest Pelosi even more.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: I think they should TRY to get a better deal because that’s their goddamned job. There’s nothing normal about the situation. The choices are salvaging what you can or saying fuck it, nothing we can do.
Nelle
A clean bill on the Dreamers would pass both houses. Ryan refuses to put it on the floor for a vote. Bombard his office and castigate him. Trump, right this minute, is a sideshow on that.
So last week, ICE picked up a man in our community, on his front yard, as he was going to take his daughter to school. A college chemistry instructor. He had been into immigration the week before for his regular check in. Did they say or do anything there? No, everything seemed fine. Then they drive over to our community and pull this shit. They were set to deport him two days later but the community agitated, there was publicity all the way to CNN and the Washington post, Congressional reps who were besieged started calling. We got a ten day stay but they flew him to a prison in El Paso.
Congressman Emanuel Cleaver flew to El Paso on Saturday to see Syed Jamal, came to Kansas City on Sunday (exhausted but you know that the former pastor got some cadence in his voice when he roused the crowd by saying, with regard to the fight against what they are doing, “This is right. We are right!” to fight this. He plans to put a private bill on the floor of the house tomorrow, but it can only protect Syed Jamal and we know that there are so many others. We would so appreciate if many of you would call your reps and ask them to support Congressman Cleaver’s private bill. Especially if you can get a kind Republican on board. The more Republican support we can get, the better the likelihood of it getting on the floor and not being blocked by Ryan. The FNYFT picked up the story (Kristoff) in the Sunday paper.
At the KC meeting yesterday, there was a woman whose husband went to check in last Wednesday and she has not seen or heard from him since. She has four sons, one of whom has a medical condition. She doesn’t speak English. She doesn’t know how to pay the gas bill next week (we passed the basket to cover immediate bills and food). And there was a Dreamer who has 280 days left in this country. She says, with an American accent, because she’s mostly only lived in this country, that every morning that she wakes up, she subtracts another day from the count, of how many days she has left with her children unless something happens.
Because this is the Theater of State Terror – to go and grab a noncriminal in front of his children, on a residential street, and whisk him away, not even allowing his wife or children to hug him goodbye. This is gestapo, this is Stalin’s goons in the night sort of stuff. And the man is not the real target. Immigrants are not the only target. Each and every one of us is the target. We are meant to feel and understand the power and the caprice of the state. And we are to fear it and to think that it will be in our interest to submit, not fight, this overwhelming power.
And I finish with a surprise quote – Our country is great because it is built on principles of self-reliance, opportunity, innovation, and compassion for others.
Ronald Reagan
germy
@Betty Cracker:
I’d like to see 45’s promise to “make Mexico pay for the wall” become more of a discussion point. Why is that ridiculous promise being flushed down the memory hole? It was one of the pillars of his campaign.
Another Scott
@Betty Cracker: I see it a little differently.
Trump wants immigrants he can control – people who will invest in his properties, people who will work as proto-indentured servants at his hotels and resorts. It’s all transactional for him. “What do I get out of it.”
Other than that, he’s fine with closing the borders, or not. He doesn’t really care personally, but it gets his base riled up so it increases his power. That’s why The Wall and all the rest is a big deal for him.
Trump is fine with Muslims that invest in his properties and stay at his hotels…
I think that’s the way he thinks about it.
But, it really doesn’t matter what his “thought” process is. We need to get him and his enablers out of office ASAP and begin repairing the damage.
Cheers,
Scott.
TenguPhule
@Suzanne:
But on this they correctly see conceding to the Republicans on immigration as losing ground.
Immanentize
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Just on this one point about where Dems aim their protests.
I can envision a “Shut It Down” campaign where every Trump property is picketed and protested 24/7. It really wouldn’t be that hard to arrange, would it? Make an app. have sign ups for one or two hour segments… Maybe a big blow up Trump Chicken at every property?
That would be a worthy and news-worthy movement.
schrodingers_cat
So the consensus on this thread on immigration is that the POV of an actual immigrant is unimportant. Save the Dreamers screw over every other immigrant.
Suzanne
@Brachiator:
I can come up with many. But we have no leverage.
The most likely alternative is to get none of what we want. I fail to see how that’s a win.
JPL
@Nelle: By unleashing ICE, Trump achieved his goal of terrorizing immigrants. Unfortunately, it will cause many to go into hiding.
Major Major Major Major
@randy khan: Yeah, I deleted a bit about how I know that “judges are nonpartisan” even though, in practice, that only applies to Democrat-appointed judges, and Richard Posner.
Suzanne
@TenguPhule: Losing the Dreamers is also losing ground. Every single one of the Dreamers who gets deported is ground lost.
Chris
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
After telling ICE and CBP to stop focusing on MS-13 and other violent criminals.
Ruckus
@Betty Cracker:
Reading this shows me that we have maybe 2 sides on the dem side here.
First is to protect whatever we can, however we can. I think this is normal policy in normal times for the minority party. But this of course is not normal times. republicans are going all in, as if this was their last possible chance to fuck over most of America, immigrants, economy, POC, laws, government itself. And because they are on a jihad of total destruction and pretty much in total control….
Second is to find ways to energize an overwhelming majority of the country to throw out the shitheads this November, then block and lance this boil on the ass of politics.
Which one is right? Short term number one is, never give up, plug away at every opportunity, a lot of small cuts. Long term the second is, let thinking Americans see the craven stupidity and assholyness that is the republican party up front and personal, so that hopefully the opposition is overwhelming.
Me? I think a combination is the answer. People are already seeing the shitshow, even some republicans are horrified, even some drumpf voters are seeing the error of their vote, we are winning on the long term side, especially as it has just been one year and as someone said, a seemingly rudderless dem leadership. I don’t think it is rudderless, but we don’t have a captain we trust, to continue the boat metaphors. We need a new captain, we’ve been used to, for the last 10 yrs or so of having a great one, we thought we were going to continue that with one that looked pretty good. But that’s not where we are and that hole is making this harder. We have what looks like a great second tier of dedicated people and we are adding to that daily. An amazing amount of grunt work is getting done and seemingly done well.
But the big issue is that we are, right now, second class citizens power wise. We have little power, other than that second tier work, which is long term stuff. We really can only affect the short term outcomes in little bits and that’s going to be an issue for another year. The republicans know this and are taking as much advantage as they are capable of. They know their policies are crap, they don’t care. They know they won’t last forever, they don’t care. They know they will lose long term, they are desperate and desperate animals do desperate things when cornered. It doesn’t matter why they are cornered, that they are doing this to themselves, they are cornered and striking out. There will be damage, there is no way to stop this, and little way to minimize it. All of the stuff they have passed or might pass is fixable. Hard as it is to say, the fix is not now, it is in the future.
satby
@schrodingers_cat: that’s not what anyone said. I get that this is personal and emotional for you, but don’t mischaracterize what people are trying to express.
Fair Economist
@Mnemosyne:
More like arresting the hostage chained up in the basement for not stopping the drunk driver.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
No. Their job is to throw sabots in the gears and grind shit to a halt. There is no better deal.
No, there’s a third option. Shut it down and keep it clogged up. The Democrats are still trying to pretend things are normal. It is long past time they gummed up EVERYTHING under the rules. Dare the Republicans to change them, get it all out in the open that IOKIYAR is fucked up and bullshit. They need to risk, they need to fight the fucking GOP.
Mr. Mack
As a former professional immigration advocate, I can offer this: It is a mistake to think that Democrats will ever be in lock step on this issue. (we rarely are anyway) They aren’t AS afraid of the “others” as their Republican counterparts, but it is there, and while they feel for the Dreamers, part of them is ok with less furriners coming into the country. Especially brown ones.
JPL
@schrodingers_cat: You forgot the part where we want to take back Congress, so that real change can be debated on the floor. The democrats at this point, don’t even have the microphone on Sunday talk shows.
Immanentize
The people who whine DEMS MUST SOLVE THE PROBLEM!!! never have a realistic plan of how that can happen, nor do they propose policies that can be proposed by a minority that have any chance of becoming law. The only solution available to the Dems currently is to shut down the government over undocumented folks in this country–
Put neighbors and friends out of work (I know at least 60 people in my small work world who would be furloughed)
Cut off Social Secuirity
Stop research on critical sciences
Close health care facilities
Endanger Vets even more than they already are
Close the EPA and all the other agencies trying to save our world
Etc. etc,. etc.
And we would not get any preferred legislation passed. But man, we would sure look tough!
Loudest boos from the cheapest seats.
schrodingers_cat
Even if Ds win in 2018 they won’t be able to mitigate the damage that this capitulation will cost. They haven’t been able to mitigate the damage caused by IIRAIRA.
Miss Bianca
@Mnemosyne:
Bingo. I’m gonna steal this framing and use it the next time I end up in an argument with my purity pony progressive friends (which is happening less these days now that I’m observing a more-or-less involuntary self-banning from FB, but could definitely still happen).
TenguPhule
@Suzanne:
They’re already dead. We can’t save this hostage. But we can hurt the Republicans in retaliation for it.
Fair Economist
I lean to not doing any bad permanent changes. No changes to immigration law to save the Dreamers.
One thing to remember is that the Dreamers can be re-admitted by law later even if they are deported. That weighs the scale heavily against any change that will be hard to reverse.
Jeffro
Btw while we have been discussing this, Trumpov just dropped one heck of a joke…er, excuse me, budget…on America. A shitload of more money for defense, a half shitload on domestic programs, and big cuts to ‘entitlements’ like Medicare.
It’s kind of a no-brainer to just oppose everything these clowns want and give voters a very clear choice in November. Let the GOP own their own horrific proposals without any Dem cover. “Why are they blaming Democrats – don’t they have the WH and majorities in Congress?” “Why do they insist on bipartisan cover for bills that will hurt millions of Americans and run up our debt?” “Don’t these guys know they’re supposed to work for the 99%, not the 1%?” Lather, rinse, repeat.
Brachiator
@JPL:
Then help them hide, if necessary.
Fair Economist
@JPL:
The media will never give us that. Even when we had the trifecta and 60 seats in the Senate there were still more Republicans on the Sunday talks. That tells you where the media is coming from.
MJS
@TenguPhule: Really? How can we hurt Republicans in retaliation?
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
They’re mad about everything since last November, when the whole hostage taking started. It’s spilling over because “talk is cheap” and as good as Pelosi sounded on the floor, enough Democrats in the House still voted to pass the funding, so they’re blaming her “for not doing her job” by stopping them from voting yes.
I agree with you that its frustrating, but I can also see why they’re still angry.
satby
@Immanentize: this, thank you. Shutting things down would be a recipe for cutting a potential wave election into barely a ripple. A lot of people are sympathetic to Dreamers and immigration in general, but not at the risk of that list.
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist: I assume McCain hasn’t been showing up lately—who’s the new McCain?
TenguPhule
@MJS:
Grind Congress to a halt. For starters.
TenguPhule
@Immanentize:
It could be argued that closing the EPA with Scot Pruitt in it IS saving the world.
Another Scott
@schrodingers_cat: If enough people get agitated, and vote, then anything is possible in politics.
I understand your anger and frustration, but Trump really has changed the political game. We shouldn’t assume that just because a bill Clinton signed wasn’t changed that similar lack of action will happen after Trump leaves. Increasing numbers of Hispanics and other minorities run every cycle…
Hang in there.
Cheers,
Scott.
JMG
Democrats in Congress have agency. The caucus did not have the votes to shut down the government because members on their own decided it would do more harm than good substantively and politically. Maybe they’re wrong, but that was a tough decision made in good faith. I don’t think bargaining with Trump does any good. I doubt he’ll keep his word. There’s really nothing Dems can do but tell the truth about the cruelty and racism of the Republican party and Trump. No compromises would seem to be the only position here for now. Things can change.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
I don’t know why you keep saying this. Shutdowns NEVER work to get substantial concessions. Never have, never will.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@TenguPhule: they’re angry at the wrong people, and the time, money and energy spent going to DC for photo-ops would be better spent going to FL, TX, AZ and NV (etc) to register voters
schrodingers_cat
No change to the 1965 immigration laws with a gun to our head. Period. Let the Rs solve the problem they created. With that I will leave this thread.
BTW unlike most of you I have navigated the thicket of the immigration bureaucracy. It was not easy. So I know of what I speak. Its not emotion, its weariness.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Immanentize: Yup, inconvenience those those that are causing the problem; why shit in your own tent?
TenguPhule
@Immanentize:
Republicans have the majority, this is their problem.
Its the Democrats job to make this as hard and miserable as possible for them.
bemused senior
Apologies for O/T: West Virginia isn’t clear on the concept of open hearings. Maybe the blogmeister has room for a FP post discussing this.
Nelle
In 1983, I was part of the Sanctuary movement and did shifts, then moved in (for about three weeks) with refugees from El Salvador at the University Baptist Church in Seattle. This shit has been going on forever, especially under Republican administrations. Yes, hide them. Open the churches and give them a purpose, the ancient calling of Sanctuary. I think, though, that unlike under Reagan, these ICE folks would break down the doors of churches.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: I don’t watch those shows, but from the clips and tweets I saw, Kellyanne Conway and Mick Mulvaney had busy mornings
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
The point wasn’t concessions. The point was showing that the threat of shutdown was real. That if push came to shove, Democrats had an actual weapon to use.
Instead, what we got was a neutering of our best weapon. Republicans now are not going to take us seriously on any shutdowns going forward because our Senators concede on what looks like the drop of a dime.
Patricia Kayden
@schrodingers_cat: So how do Democrats who are a minority in Congress get both?
rp
@Immanentize: Reminds me of the cries of “Obama must get Garland on the court!” Uh, ok. What’s your realistic plan for doing that?
schrodingers_cat
@Patricia Kayden: They can’t. We should wait for November.
Patricia Kayden
@TenguPhule: Shutdowns don’t work for our side so Democrats may have to push for what they want and refuse to vote for any legislation which harms the Dreamers and/or legal immigrants. Let Republicans destroy immigration on their own.
Fair Economist
@Major Major Major Major:
There doesn’t seem to be one person right now who’s on almost every week like McCain used to be. His “slot” is getting filled by several Republican Senate “moderates” like Collins, Graham, and Flake.
MJS
@TenguPhule: And this hurts Republicans how, exactly? By giving them and the media another “both sides” talking point? If nothing happens, the Dreamers start to get deported in March, and the Repubs and the lickspittle media say, “There was a bill that would have avoided this, but Dems wouldn’t agree to it, so what are you going to do?”
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
But it’s not a weapon, except I suppose a suicide weapon. It wouldn’t hurt the Republicans.
TenguPhule
@Patricia Kayden:
And this line of thinking needs to change.
As long as we play by the old rules, we’re at a serious disadvantage.
satby
@TenguPhule: and shut downs hurt people who are vulnerable: the elderly, vets depending on the VA, people relying on Medicaid and Medicare, government workers. Not all those people are Republican, it wouldn’t hurt the Republican party if the Democratic party injured millions of people for the Dreamers cause. That makes enemies, not allies.
Humdog
I don’t want to get flamed, but I will ask a q that has been bouncing around my head. Democrats appear to be the ones to be blamed if dreamers have to go. Not the guy who ended their program, not the guys who will not pass any immigration bill that facilitates
immigration, but the people who stood behind a program that was a temporary measure to regularize Dreamers. Why does no one blame their parents for putting them in a situation where they are breaking the law? We put up way too many barriers to immigration, but to shut down citizens’ government to aid non citizens who jumped the process line? Who thinks that will be popular, even with immigrants who have followed the rules, much less the bigots? How much can a party who is law abiding compared to the lawless Rs start up for technical law breakers?
Actually, let’s blame kiddy molester Hastert. We had a bill that could pass 5-6 years ago but we are ruled by an absent pedophile in our Congress.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
Oh yes it would. Red States thrive on federal government spending. Imagine the screaming once a lengthy shutdown hit home.
Mandalay
I haven’t heard any prominent Democrats loudly defending the Visa Lottery in recent weeks. Do they even have a position? I’m happy for it to continue but it really doesn’t seem to be a hill worth dying for.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@rp: hell, there were otherwise intelligent people here in November calling for Obama to mint the platinum coin that would ban the electoral college
Immanentize
@schrodingers_cat:
So your solution is that the Democratic members of Congress abstain on all immigration proposals? Or shut everything down regardless of the human cost and suffering to collateral targets? After all your complaining and criticizing and attacking this is what you’ve got?
Your “solution” will not help immigrants or our share of representatives come November. But Susan Sarandon would approve.
TenguPhule
@satby:
And the blame for that would be on Republicans for refusing to negotiate in good faith with Democrats. Because those people are going to be hurt anyway when Republicans in power target each group in turn.
satby
@TenguPhule: a shut down pushed by Democrats in Congress to protect “illegal aliens”. Yeah, the Red State voters will totally see the light and start voting blue.
JPL
@Humdog: It is surprising that the Hastert rule is not highlighted more, since the rule is often cited.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
And it would be directed against Democrats. “Why won’t they even allow a vote?”
Most of that spending in red states, BTW, goes to *democratic* constituents, which is most of why the Republicans have been so resistant to Medicare expansion.
Immanentize
@rp: That is a very good analogy. He could have waged a more persistent and public battle, but he still would have lost the war on Garland.
Another Scott
Another thing we need to remember is that:
1) The House and Senate have different dynamics. The Senate needs 60 votes.
2) The House and Senate are different. The House has sat on bipartisan immigration bills from the Senate in the past (Goodlatte/Boehner).
It’s not a sure thing – at all – that anything that can pass the House will pass the Senate, and vice versa. The most likely thing to happen is either very “modest” changes (so that Donnie can claim another “Bigly Win!!11”), or nothing (and the Dreamers continue getting rounded up).
McConnell and Ryan will decide how this goes. Not Trump, not Nancy Smash, not Schumer.
Cheers,
Scott.
Cermet
Try to get a better deal – duh; if unable and frankly, the dem’s hand’s are weak – save the 1.8 million people (0.8 million dreamers) who desperately need to be saved. This isn’t open to debate about principles or future quota’s but real people and kids that will be deported if the dem’s fail. Anyone worried about principle are being acting the pale – when we take back the three branches of government by 2020, then any changes can be fixed. Allowing a million or more amerikan children to be deported so you feel good about principle is just selfish stupidity more in-line with a thug low information (aka stupid) voter.
TenguPhule
@Humdog:
Uh, because the answer to that is right there in your question?
The Moar You Know
Negotiate with what? We gave the GOP no government shutdowns until after the midterms, and let their worst get away with voting against it in the process.
We have literally not one thing to negotiate with. We just gave it the fuck away.
Chris
@Immanentize:
Yeah. Want Democrats to solve the problem? It’s easy: turn up and vote. Two years later in the midterms, turn up and vote again. Two years after that, turn up and vote again. And when Democrats are in power and not doing exactly what you want, then go pester them to change their approach. Doing it when they’re in the minority doesn’t do shit.
TenguPhule
@Cermet:
And they’ll still be deported if Democrats concede. Which will achieve less then nothing for our side.
All of the blame and none of the credit.
Immanentize
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
That is B. Cracker good!
Brachiator
@Suzanne:
No, that’s only the alternative which you can see, just now.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
But we got a promise from Ryan and Mcconnell not to come in our mouth.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@satby: Actually what happened in the last shutdown was that Democrats got as much(if not more) blame in the media for it happening. Democrats in Congress noticed this.
Major Major Major Major
@Humdog:
Ooh, you might be in the wrong thread
oldgold
Betty Cracker correctly identifies what the problem is.
To stop the ongoing carnage we need to end this GOP hegemony.
This fall we have a decent chance of taking control of the House.
To make this more likely to occur I have been advocating doing things that are unpopular here. Things I think will make it easier for independents and disaffected Republicans in purple districts to vote for Democratic candidates.
In so doing, it does not mean I dislike Nancy Pelosi or like Nicole Wallace. It means I believe winning the House is so important that I am willing to do damn near anything, within reason, to make it more likely to occur.
Cermet
@TenguPhule: Maybe but far from certain by any means – you forget that the fake news outlet will trumpet that it is due to dems and the lame stream media will, at best, say both sides as they give thugs the lion share of debate time. Meanwhile, you forget, dreamers will be deported as the government is shut down; you can’t see the danger? Or just believe that shut downs are magic pixie dust that the dems control. Don’t think 1.8 million kids and young adults should have their lives hang in the balance over a weak possibility. But then, the sword isn’t hanging over your head by a thread … .
Chip Daniels
@Jeffro:
This is kinda where I’m at.
I say this knowing I don’t have a lot of skin in this game (not a DREAMer, not with family as immigrants) but still, I don’t want to have it go down as us agreeing to any of this.
Its the tactic of bullies and sociopaths everywhere, to rig things to force you to choose your own misery, to manipulate you into surrendering to their framing of events.
satby
@?BillinGlendaleCA: yes, they did. And will continue to get the blame because the media always frames it that way. A weapon that’s pointed at your own heart isn’t worth using.
Fair Economist
@Mandalay:
I’m not sure the visa lottery is a particularly good system. It’s *called* the diversity lottery, which sound like it’s to help minorities, but my understanding is that it was put in to increase immigration from Europe, because when the main criteria is skills, potential immigrants are overwhelmingly from the Third World. An Italian doctor hasn’t much reason to come to the States but and Indian or Nigerian doctor might.
TenguPhule
@satby:
A shutdown on everything that Republicans have done, not just Dreamers. There’s more then enough to justify it. And frankly, its long past time the Republican base starts taking some of the punches they’re dishing out in the legislation.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major:
Heh, or wrong blog.
MomSense
ELECTIONS HAVE CONSEQUENCES!1!!1
The only thing we can do is try to get the best possible deal. Work those phones and faxes.
Cermet
@TenguPhule: I’m lost. If the orange fart cloud is offering to protect the 1.8 million kids, and congress agree’s – as long as he gets the other parts -then how and why are they deported? Seriously, I am trying to see why.
Miss Bianca
@oldgold: Except that what you advocate doesn’t make what you want more likely to occur, and in fact, probably makes it LESS likely to occur.
So, here’s a suggestion: do your part, vote Democratic, encourage your friends and relations to vote Democratic, *no matter what*, and shut the hell up about Nancy Pelosi. Cease aiding, abetting and avocating of the Republican-led scapegoating of a tough, competent female Democratic leader.
JohnO
@Miss Bianca:
Put me down on the fight side. The time for talk with madmen is over. (I have also contacted unitedwedream.org twice now to offer my help and have yet to receive a response.) The polls showing general support for Dreamers remind me of polls that told me HRC would win comfortably and people who say “I’m not racist.” Support for the Others might be broad but I do not think it is deep, and among the non-political junkies the consequences these poor people will face are not well understood.
Interesting! Besides noticing the same thing, I’m part of the self-ban too. I wonder what FB’s internal numbers really show?
mai naem mobile
For once I would like to have the Dems play the long game. The GOP is trying to debrownify the country at least for another 30 years or so. The Dreamers path is 10 years which means if they come out to vote it won’t be for 10 years. By then they probably won’t even remember who fought for them. Let the GOP deal with the news coverage of the 25 years old leaving his cancer stricken child.
Suzanne
@TenguPhule:
I agree that this is appealing in the immediate future, but I also think it ruins any chance of winning in the kind of numbers we need in future elections to actually achieve our aims.
satby
@TenguPhule: thank God you aren’t an elected Dem politician (I assume), because you don’t seem to grasp how this all works at all.
TenguPhule
@Cermet:
The only way Democrats can cripple ICE right now is to fuck with their budget. That’s it.
So its a thin reed of a chance vs no chance at all. Conceding to the GOP just makes things worse overall while doing nothing to save a single Dreamer.
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca:
Ditto Miss B.
SteveNKY
@JMG:
No one wants to understand, NEVER while Mush-Mouth Mitch has control of the Senate or a “R” has the speakership will any immigration or DACA resolution occur. The GOP in their delusion-ed, fact-less, insane mind believe – beyond any doubt – 1.6 to 2.0 million dreamers will only vote democratic if given a path to citizenship. A party in power because of voter suppression, will not, no matter the shutdowns, no matter the family tragedies, allow nearly 2 million voters on the rolls. Let them nationalize Prop. 187.
Replacing a Dem. with a take no prisoners Dem. does increase our numbers nor move us to the majority.
Brachiator
@Immanentize:
No. Just the shitty proposals.
Fair Economist
@The Moar You Know:
That’s completely wrong. The Republicans cannot pass any legislative changes without substantial Democratic support in the Senate, and possibly even the House. And unlike threatening to swallow a live grenade by shutting down the government and *literally* killing veterans, SNAP recipients, etc., this is meaningful, useful leverage.
Of course most bills will still lean to the Republicans. Pelosi and Schumer have done amazingly well with the budget negotiations, far better than any other minority party ever did, but they can’t be expected to *always* be the best minority negotiators in the history of the nation.
satby
@Miss Bianca: yep.
schrodingers_cat
@Immanentize: I will vote D this November. You can call me names. That is not going to change my opinion that slashing legal immigration levels by 40% or more as a concession in this Dreamer hostage negotiation is a mistake.
ETA: I admire Nancy Pelosi , I have no idea who you have me confused with. I am firmly team D.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
Which requires taking the Congress back. ICE is shutdown-protected.
TenguPhule
@Cermet:
Because the “agreement” is worded in such a way that if one of those Dreamers so much as sneezes wrong (as determined by ICE), they lose protection and out they go. Like every other Trump proposal, it doesn’t do what he says it does. And it guts current immigration law in the process. And even then this proposal might still be too liberal for the Republicans in the House. Let that sink in for a moment.
Suzanne
@Brachiator: As BCrack noted, Republicans control all three branches of government, and as such, have no incentive to negotiate with the Ds. So please convince me why/how we are likely to successfully drive a harder bargain.
I happen to believe that support for the Dreamers is a mile wide and an inch deep.
Mandalay
@Fair Economist:
Well I had no clue, but it looks like you are correct: in 2015 more Visa Lottery winners came from Europe than Asia and Africa combined.
Brachiator
@oldgold:
Actually, Republicans don’t control all three branches of government. But thanks for trying.
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: Also, there are real things that can be done if immigration is your thing. Volunteer at an immigration center. Your church — especially if Catholic or Unitarian — probably has some refugee/immigration programming that they would love to see you join. Teach English to newly arrived immigrants (adults and kids) at your local library. Organize recent immigrant citizens in ways that prevent them from turning against new immigrants (this is a very large political problem). I am sure people here can suggest many more ideas….
I am, as many know, not an immigration specialist, but guess what? I am currently using my areas of expertise to work with immigration advocates on issues related to detention and incarceration — about which I know some stuff. Win win win — Clients, Immigration Advocates, Me. Which may be why all this bullshit about what can (not) happen politically fries me. It feels like avoiding actual work.
TenguPhule
Sadly, not the Onion.
Major Major Major Major
@Another Scott: I’m amazed how none of my friends seem to remember that the last senate immigration bill died singly because of John Boehner.
Another Scott
Unsurprisingly, Trump’s budget proposes to freeze federal pay, cut federal retirement benefits, reduce contributions for heath insurance, and all the rest.
We have to fight them every single day…
Cheers,
Scott.
Immanentize
@schrodingers_cat:
I called you no names and I never mentioned Pelosi. So … What’s up with that?
This may be why you feel people misunderstand you, because you don’t seem to understand what others actually say with, you know, their words?
brendancalling
Well, I’ve basically lost faith in the the whole edifice. The GOP controls all branches of government, and the Democrats really don’t have the spine to go to the mat.
Everything continues to fall apart. I’m not betting on the Democrats taking control of House or Senate in 2018. I know we’ve had some good races, but I’m honestly not seeing it anymore.
Miss Bianca
Meanwhile, in other news, Susan Collins is apparently shocked, SHOCKED to discover gambling is going on this establishment!
oldgold
@Miss Bianca:
I am already contributing considerable time, money and effort to this fall’s election.
Please do not lose sight of the fact that to win the House does not require that we turn blue congressional districts bluer. It requires we turn congressional districts that elected Republicans in 2016 blue.
TenguPhule
@Another Scott:
Fortunately we still don’ t have a federal budget for 2018…..
Immanentize
@Another Scott: But you know any President’s budget proposal is nothing more than a piece of irrelevant clap trap, except for propaganda purposes (on both sides)….
Congress funds, and never has a President’s budget proposal become anything likethe actual set of appropriations. Best ignored, I think?
John Steed
I don’t like the idea of moving back towards a pre-1965 immigration scheme, which the Republicans can’t get passed without Democratic support. Even in exchange for protecting Dreamers.
JMG
@brendancalling: Why not? Just a bad day for you, or do you have data supporting your feeling?
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: Yes and Collins was so offended that people said she had been rolled when the “deal” happened. Bless her dear heart.
TenguPhule
@Miss Bianca:
“Your winnings, madam.”
Cermet
@TenguPhule: Good point; however, they maybe they will then just have to live with beening near perfect. Also, during the sausage making a number of thugs (esp. in the Senate) will join in for a better deal – this is very possible if the dems use their tiny leverage smartly. Then the real objective can be obtained – stop the deportations come March. Because even a tough bill that still allows all dreamers (signed up and not signed up) to stay making them essentially second class for many years is better than deportation – after this, when the dems take all branches in 2020, a far fairer law can be passed.
Patricia Kayden
@TenguPhule: But we just saw in real time how the last shutdown was held against Democrats and cut into their generic lead in Congressional races. Our side doesn’t appear to like shutdowns even if they agree with the causes.
?BillinGlendaleCA
Just got a news alert on this here computer that “Mrs. Donald Trump Jr. was exposed to white powder(doubt this was the first time) and has be hospitalized”.
Miss Bianca
@Fair Economist:
Is this true? Because of course it fucking would be.
Every other service the government provides can go straight to hell along with the losers who depend on them, but God forbid a government shutdown should interfere with the business of deporting those scary Browns back to where they came from! Even if they didn’t actually come from there.
And if true, then a shutdown over the Dreamers is nothing but political theater, exerting actual harm and doing no actual good. So why would we want to see this happen, exactly? Oh, yeah, because it looks tough and cool.
Bring on the giant puppets. If we’re going to have political theater, then it’s ALWAYS better with the giant puppets.
@Suzanne: You said “BCrack”. Heh heh heh. (Sorry, sometimes my inner Beavis and Butthead just has to come out).
Cermet
@Brachiator: For now – and maybe soon, the nuclear option will occur if thugs decide to end that rule (actually, that would be good.)
TenguPhule
Via Wapo. Invest in tumbrels, I foresee a rising market for them.
Patricia Kayden
@John Steed: I agree. Dems shouldn’t support any anti-immigration legislation. Let Republicans pass those on their own.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Immanentize: Yup, it always goes like this:
a) OMB puts out the budget.
b) Congress immediately declares it DOA.
Fair Economist
@oldgold:
True, but we do that by getting Democratic voters to turn out more. There’s little switching these days. The only group that seems swingable is educated white women.
Another Scott
@Immanentize: Sure, it’s always a presidential wishlist.
But it needs to be used to get people fired up about fighting to retain their hard-won benefits. And to make the point that we’re all in this together. Private companies and federal, state, and local governments have been cutting benefits for years. We need to work together to reverse these policies.
Cheers,
Scott.
The Simp in the Suit
@TenguPhule:
Again, I’m not seeing that the Democrats can do what the mob wants them to do. Period.
As to mobbing the Republicans:
1) You don’t know until you try. And then try again. I’m unaware
2) You at least make life miserable for them *and for their families.*
Do not underestimate that second point. They are WATBs. Make them feel it. Make their spouses whine about the embarrassing inconvenience of it all. Make their kids wonder WTF is wrong with Daddy that he hates people who dream. Make the whole family unwelcome at the country club.
Fair Economist
@TenguPhule:
And here we have what I think is the reason for the recent stock market correction. This was already obvious to people watching the numbers, because the drop dead date for the debt limit dropped from 4 to 3 months, but this is the first official acknowledgement.
TenguPhule
@Cermet:
This agreement would not stop deportations, but would convince the media that “something was done” and off they go to chase a shiny new object. Instead, ICE would be given more ability to “justify” who they deport. Traffic ticket? Fuck you, criminal, deported. Lost your job? Fuck you, bum, deported.
It would make things WORSE for Dreamers, not better.
Jay C
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Bad/misleading headline alert: Vanessa Trump apparently did open the suspicious envelope, after which she and “two others from the residence” (probably household help? Don Jr. wasn’t home) went to a local hospital to be checked out. So far, nothing has been reported wrong with Mrs. Trump, or anybody else: though you wouldn’t know that to judge from the breathless coverage and sensationalist framing.
PS: not to excuse this sort of vile stuff, even if it was only milk sugar, terrorism-by-mail should be vigorously investigated and prosecuted.
MomSense
@Miss Bianca:
We warned her. She plays the role of moderate but she always voted with W especially on tax cuts. We made a stink about those too with demonstrations and all the local tv stations there. It’s all just theater with her.
schrodingers_cat
Leaving the thread as promised in #105.
@Immanentize:
You said that Susan Sarandon would approve of me. That’s not name calling?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jay C:
From our esteemed media, surely you jest?
(And, yes, I called you Shirley.)
ETA: Probably just a package from “their man”.
oldgold
@Fair Economist:
Yes, getting better turn out from Democrats is going to be important. And, it is possible that the anti-Trump sentiment, particularly among women, may be enough to win the House.
I agree there will be very few Republicans that vote for Democratic candidates.
What I am focused on is attracting independents and dampening GOP turn out.
TenguPhule
ETA: never mind.
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist:
Unless the Republican candidate is a pedophile, of course.
Lapassionara
@Nelle: This!
Why aren’t there marches and protests every day in front of the WH about these tactics.
And not only the Dreamers, there are the Haitians and people from El Salvador too.
Miss Bianca
@oldgold: Don’t “please remember” me, troll. I live in one of the goddamn reddest districts of my state, and I have the thankless task, as a central committee member of my local Democratic Party, to mobilize Democratic voters and candidates. And I am going to do it WITHOUT FUCKING DEMONIZING ONE OF THE BEST DEMOCRATIC LEADERS WE HAVE. And calling out the assholes on “my side” who start meeping about “identity politics” being one of the reasons Democrats just can’t relate to Bubba the Rolling Coal dude, who would *totally* vote for Democrats if only more good white Christian men were in charge of the party.
Fuck it. We win with the party we have, not the party certain misogynist racist “progressives” wish we had, or we don’t win at all.
JPL
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Is it wrong of me to think it was a set up to change the subject from Porter?
Jeffro
We need a new thread for the mysterious white powder (FALSE FLAG! FALSE FLAG OPERATION!) and definitely this as well: Trumpov wants to sell National* and Dulles Airports, Other Assets Around US
*nice subtle shot there, WaPo…I don’t call it “Reagan” either…I see it in the article but hey, the headline can only be so long, amirite? ;)
Let’s walk this through for a second…which cash-strapped state or local entity is going to buy National Airport? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Nope. Nobody could swing that kind of cheddar. But I bet a well-connected Republican dark-money billionaire donor might just be allowed to buy it for pennies, guaranteed against future gate charges, parking, all of it…and then jack up prices on consumers right afterwards.
GOP = Gang of Pillagers
Brachiator
@Suzanne:
Actually, not true.
So, you are saying that for now we should just accept whatever is offered? And magic zingo wowee! In some future election which we are sure to win, undo everything? Assuming that we have a veto proof majority and also the presidency?
I don’t have to convince you. We are all waiting to see what the Democrats will do.
I will write to my representatives asking them not to simply roll over and accept the shit that the GOP is shoveling.
I happen to believe that support for the Dreamers is a mile wide and an inch deep.
JPL
@Miss Bianca: Nice!
Aimai
@schrodingers_cat: Look—of course dresmers are against this! I’m against this. But if this is the best deal we can get then not taking it leaves the dreamers and the democrats with nothing. And then the democrats will be excoriated for “not doing everything they could” for the dreamers. the left/immigrants rights groups have to decide whether they want a pyrrhic victory, a partial victory, or no victory. Frankly id take immiediate citizenship (no pathway:instant) for 1.8 million and let them rewrite the immigration laws. We can always rewrite them back in four years.
oldgold
@Miss Bianca:
I am not a racist.
I am not a misogynist.
I am not a troll, Russian or otherwise.
I am an individual interested in discussing ideas for making it more likely that we win the House this fall.
If you disagree with me, so be it.
Aimai
@oldgold: stupid.
Immanentize
@schrodingers_cat: No, it’s not. It is suggesting that your stated political remedy is aligned with her stated political ideals/goals. Therefore, she would approve of your ideas (as I wrote).
I kinda like Susan Sarandon, although I think her choice in candidates was poor and her policy prescriptions are ones only rich revolutionaries can afford. Like accentuating the differences or shutting down the government because ___________. People who are not well off cannot afford those solutions.
ETA clarity
NotMax
@Jeffro
“The president made multiple calls from the Chick-fil-A House today, including to Congressional leaders at the Hobby Lobby Capitol Building.”
wormtown
@germy: Yes to this!
JMG
@Aimai: Dems are not going to be offered any deal they can accept. Rs will never ever let the Dreamers have a chance at citizenship. The minute Dems agree to one onerous bargain, it will be yanked away from them to be replaced by still more onerous demands. The reality of the situation is that on Nov. 8, 2016, the Dreamers were screwed. There’s nothing the Dems can do about it, so there’s no point in saying they have to do SOMETHING. They won’t be allowed to.
Immanentize
@Jeffro: Hell, if I was rich as Croesus, I would buy Reagan just to change the name to “Barak Obama/Chocolate City Airport” and I would name George Clinton as the permanent ambassador of the facility
?BillinGlendaleCA
@NotMax: Well played.
mai naem mobile
@Jay C: guess eveybody has forgotten the white powder sent to Daschle’s office after 9/11 to scare the shit out of the Dems. I forget the details but I believe it was around the time they were pushing for the Patriot act.
Spanky
@Jeffro: Don’t forget this one:
The Onion is weeping silently in a corner somewhere.
Miss Bianca
@Immanentize: In another life, not so long ago tho’ it feels like it, I was the coordinator for an adult and family literacy program, overwhelmingly funded by federal funds, that served mostly Hispanic immigrant families. Some were migrant laborers, but a surprising number of them had been settled in the area for at least one generation. Many of them would have fallen into the Dreamer category.
I just found out from one of the teachers I had hired , back in the day, that the program has been shut down. They lost their federal funding, partly because of a drastic plunge in student numbers. Strangely, it seems, in the current political climate, most of the students were terrified of trying to come to class. Hell, they were terrified to try to go anywhere – afraid that ICE was going to bust them while they were driving to the store or to work.
I hear stories like that and feel ashamed that I am here in Podunkville, among overwhelmingly white, multi-generational conservative ranching types who on the one hand cheer on President DT and the shitty GOP, and on the other wonder why they can’t get reliable (ie, immigrant) ranch hands anymore. I feel like I ought to be putting myself more on the front line of where my politics are, which in this state would mean Denver and environs. I just can’t stand the thought of moving to the city. So, I do what I can where I’m currently planted.
Mandalay
@oldgold:
You have come to the wrong place. That shit won’t fly here.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
talented, compelling actress, almost watch-her-read-the-phonebook level. Dimwitted, and an asshole, when it comes to politics.
Percysowner
As dogs all over the country cover their ears to reduce the sound of the dog whistle Sessions Praises Sheriffs For Upholding ‘Anglo-American Heritage’ Of Policing At least he’s being honest and hasn’t quite said “start killing more POCs”. Well he hasn’t said it YET.
Doug R
@Betty Cracker:
Dreamers poll really well, better than president sh*thole. Let the cameras roll as the ICE brownshirts “just follow orders”.
We can change the rules when we are in power, let Chuck and Nancy do their best til then.
TenguPhule
@Percysowner:
At least, that we know of.
mai naem mobile
@Immanentize: nah, not George Clinton. Hillary Clinton. Nothing gets the wingers’ dicks in a bigger twist after OBama than Hillary.
TenguPhule
@Spanky:
As others have noted, it doesn’t even belong to us. Its called “international” for a reason.
germy
Miss Bianca
@oldgold: Yeah, well your “idea” seems to consist solely of saying, “Maybe we should get rid of Nancy Pelosi, because she’s just so *polarizing*”.
And we’re saying, “Dude, that’s no ‘idea’ – that’s a stupid person’s idea of an ‘idea’.”
But you keep on coming back with it. That’s pretty much textbook concern trolling so yeah…you are, in fact, a troll. Don’t like that framing? How about you come up with an ‘idea’ for getting peeople to vote Team Democrat that doesn’t depend on accepting *our political enemies’* framing?
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: It seems like you are doing a hell of a lot. Colorado is such a weird state — liberal cities, libertarian ranchers, racist/religious swaths of the state….
Remember, 40 years ago, republicans in many states felt just like you do today. Yet they now control some of those states utterly. The detailed grinding work of building the party is the basis of the big changes in the future. (Kay would agree).
TenguPhule
@Aimai:
Sure, they’ll be sent to the gas chambers in the meantime, but afterwards they’ll be made German citizens posthumous.
Immanentize
@germy: I saw that…. I’ll fix it —
— Attorney General White Citizens Council
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Vaguely interests me that trump almost never goes after Obama with the kind of invective he uses with HRC, and everybody else. Lots of trolling, but no nickname. And he never went after MRO. It’s interesting that those gross but canny political instincts of his warn him off of the Os.
Spanky
@TenguPhule: Not to mention the fact that we can’t even get people there without using another country’s vehicle.
germy
@Immanentize: He is what he is. Sometimes the words slip out and reveal the monster within.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame is right next to Tim Robbins and a few yards from Donald Trump’s.
ETA: Trump’s star is looking a little worse for wear. Last time I was there there was a teen jumping up and down on it. I made sure to put out a cig on it.
Mandalay
@germy:
Because nobody ever really believed it, and he’s lied so much that there is nothing to be gained by going on about it. You are not going to change many minds.
I think a much better campaign would be to go low. Endlessly show his huge bald patch, and his gross fat belly as he swings his golf club, and Melania snatching her hand away. But above above all, portray him as WEAK. Weak on White House security, weak on national security, too weak to fire people in person, too weak to stand up to Putin, too weak to stand up the shrill members of his own party. Peggy Noonan (of all people) did a fine article on that, but it’s behind a WSJ paywall so no link.
Here’s what Trump said earlier today on infrastructure:
No leadership. No vision. A fence sitter. Paint Trump as a weak, spineless leader.
Ksmiami
@TenguPhule: shut it all down and point out the gop are monsters
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Jeffro:
Supposedly the last time around with the Antrax in the mail it was some conservative wingnut doing bio weapons research for the government who was pissed that his socialism was being cut. Maybe more…?
TenguPhule
Why the fuck does our media keep repeating Trump’s “1.5 TRILLION” Infrastructure funding bullshit?
It’s TWO HUNDRED BILLION.
SMH.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Immanentize: California isn’t all that much different, once you get away from the coast, it gets blood red. It’s starting to change a bit, but the further from the coast you get the more red it becomes.
JPL
@germy: Holy fuck.
germy
Miss Bianca
@Immanentize: I keep telling people that the one thing I admire about the radical reactionaries who have taken over the GOP is their fucking tenacity – and the fact that however much they may bitch and moan about individual Republican candidates, they *keep voting*, and they keep voting Republican. Because they understand Thing One about political power, which is: “first, you have to acquire political power.” Something that I’m not sure progressives entirely grok. Some of them do – and some of them are doing admirable work for the candidates of their choice. I’m just afraid that if they don’t *get* the candidate of their choice, that they’ll say, “fuck it, I’m staying home” – or vote third-party because of the “relentless rightward drift of the Democratic Party” (seriously, I’ve had an old friend frame it that way, as if Obama’s and Hillary Clinton’s platforms and agendas and accomplishments just plain didn’t exist). Just VOTE, muthafuckas, vote for Democrats, and keep fighting till we win. That’s my message, and I’m sticking to it.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: Actually, if you’re going to apply that kooky-ass framing (and I wouldn’t — it’s dumb and inflammatory), it’s a better critique of the argument you’ve been making since your very first comment. It’s utterly non-responsive to Aimai’s.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker: Sorry, but I’m just making fun of this whole “we can go back and fix it after we come into power” concept. We couldn’t even do an immigration fix the LAST time we had the majority. Going along to get along isn’t going to work. We can’t unshit the bed if our party signs on to this. Its the Patriot Act Rick roll all over again.
Betty Cracker
@Mandalay: Agreed — it has the advantage of being true! And also, portray Trump, his cabinet and his family as corrupt as fuck. Plenty of evidence for that too. He is the fucking swamp, and the self-dealing should be pointed out at every turn.
Immanentize
@Miss Bianca: Yes. Fight until we win, then fight to make them do what we want. I do like DKos’ original(?) motto —
“More and Better Democrats.”
So simple. That’s it. Both in service to our long term goals.
Victor Matheson
@schrodingers_cat: So what is worse and what is more irreversible?
Suppose I have 1 million Dreamers living in US and 1 million close relatives of US citizens living abroad.
Accept Trump’s deal and we save the Dreamers and can work to get close relatives back in starting in 2018 and 2020. The close relatives just have a delay in reuniting with their families.
Don’t accept Trump’s deal and Dreamers get deported now and we can work to get them back in starting in 2018. This second option seems much more disruptive and harmful than the first.
Gvg
@schrodingers_cat: if you insist that this is catipulation, you are part of the problem. You are a variant of a purity pony. I get that it is personal but you are really not understanding that we don’t actually have enough leverage. Even if we concede the dreamers we won’t get any relief on any other immigration issue until we have more democrats in Congress. We can’t use a shut down because that always backfires. It can’t help but get too many innocent people so it’s almost useless as a weapon no matter how mad all this makes us.
Only the dreamers have enough support even with republican Congressmen to be saved.
I consider the dreamers to be already American, lacking technical legal details. Sending them somewhere they don’t remember where they would always feel foreign is too horrible to imagine.
I also have the unpopular even with democrats opinion that we wouldn’t have the illegal problem if the allowed legal immigration had been higher for the last few decades and that it should have been. Discussing it has made me aware that even most liberals are almost afraid of immigrants (because jobs) and too much more would panic change liberals into conservatives. This is why we don’t have enough leverage to,save more than dreamers now and maybe not even them. Democrats actually need to not appear to support unlimited immigration or we won’t get a blue wave at all. I am serious. In my opinion liberal support has limits here. I wish it wasn’t so. So tactically we need to save what we can, then win elections, then as undramatically as possible we need to go back to our preferred normal.
Peale
If we get out of this protecting family sponsorship even if its more limited (my guess is that it will be limited to people who have gone through the naturalization process, which will become more difficult and expensive), the end of the lottery system, and some kind of solution where the Dreamers only have to spend 6 years on punitive probation not 12, I’d declare that the best that can be done in the situation. Otherwise, just be prepared to keep everything the same and hear stories of DACA teens in confinement for the next 3 years.
Humdog
@TenguPhule: You are wrong on the last time we tried to do something on immigration. We did not have the majority in the House the last time so Boehner let the comprehensive immigration reform die in the House becouase of Hastert rule. We did not try it in the few months we had a majority in both houses.
randy khan
@Jeffro:
I am 100% confident that Congress will be entirely unwilling to allow National and Dulles to go into the hands of private companies that might choose to do things Congress doesn’t like. Congress controls an awful lot of what happens at the two airports, even though there’s already supposed to be local control.
oldgold
The battle that lies ahead is going to be won or lost in districts that have been voting red for a decade or more. To go into this fight “with the party we have” is not where wisdom lies.
Victory is probably going to require making some changes that are not popular here.
TenguPhule
@Humdog: Actually that’s precisely my point. Either Republicans clog it up or we have to put out a more urgent fire the Republicans made with our limited political capital.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@oldgold: if you’re still harping on Pelosi, do you honestly think they’ll stop talking about her and “San Francisco” if she’s replaced as minority leader by Congressman Underpants Gnome from Rustburg, Ohio? You think they can’t swap her out in those ads with Maxine Waters? (I’m surprised they haven’t). Should we get rid of her, too?
TenguPhule
@Victor Matheson:
I see the fatal flaw in your argument here.
Brachiator
@Gvg:
It’s worse than catipulation. It’s capitulation. You’re saying, let’s give Trump everything he wants now, and maybe we will be able to do … something… in 2018. Or maybe 2020.
What ever happened to RESIST?
TenguPhule
@Gvg:
This is wrong. They can’t be saved. Saving Dreamers would be a Democratic win and Republicans do not want Democrats to have any wins.
schrodingers_cat
@Immanentize: You equate with me with Susan Sarandon, and then tell me that its not an insult. You belittle and condescend and misrepresent what I have said because I disagree with the Betty Cracker and the consensus on this thread that any deal that saves the Dreamers is better than no deal. Please show me where I have said that the Ds are awful or advocate for a shut down? Both positions you have attributed to me.
I became a citizen after the 2016 election so that I could participate more fully in the political process. I have convinced two other people so far do so as well. I am fully engaged.
@Gvg: Please show me where I have advocated for a government shut down.
NeutronFlux
@Nelle: Hello from another Kansan. Interesting that rep from Missouri is pushing the private bill while our reps do nothing.
Brachiator
@TenguPhule:
I think it’s the magic number for 2018. Isn’t the tax cut bill going to end up adding $1.5 trillion to the deficit?
schrodingers_cat
@Brachiator: And everyone is mum about the 1996 IIRIRA, the law that caused this massive surge in the undocumented/illegal population.
Grassley formulation if it were to pass, cannot be undone at least until 2020 or so long as T is in office.
oldgold
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
They are going to assail us in every manner they can.
To the degree we can render these attacks less effective; particularly, in purple districts, I am interested in discussing.
schrodingers_cat
@Victor Matheson: It took the Civil Rights movement of 1960s to undo the Reed-Johnson act passed in 1920s. IIRIRA passed in 1996 is still the law of the land.
SgrAstar
@Nelle: that was a stirring, beautifully written statement. Thank you! I’m struggling to develop a strategy for responding to these accelerating encroachments. History suggests that the first steps toward totalitarianism are so easy to shrug off, easy to ignore…it’s not happening to *us*, right? I’m afraid for our country, but I am not afraid of the groveling cowards that support donald trump. I’m trying to push back as hard as possible. If we can win at least one branch of Congress, that’ll give us some breathing room and space to plan the Annihilation of 2020. I truly believe we can do it, but it’ll be close…a titanic struggle.
ruemara
@Brachiator: They don’t control all 3 branches of government? Where are you living?
Look, all of you “protect dreamers” folks. When you can get a million folks out in the streets to support dreamers, then MAYBE, you might be able to protect Dreamers. See all that silence except for the directly affected and a few allies? That’s why no one gives a fuck in the Rep party. Shutting down government isn’t going to work when the other side believes government should be drowned in a bathtub. Haranguing Dems to DO SOMETHING is a bullshit tactic holdover for the doofuses who claimed nothing was being done under Obama and have suddenly discovered that they could possibly be wrong but learning is hard so keep doing stupid shit. Dems cannot affect diddly/squat. The hostages were always going to be killed and anyone thinking this is a negotiation is the kind of person I really want to pitch a bridge sale to. This was always going to end with DACA ruined. It just depends on how much destruction the Republicans can get away with. I have no doubt that they’d have let 8 million kids die without health care. I have no doubt that they’d straight up shoot DACA recipients and their undocumented parents. They’re not kind. They’re not reasonable. I do not consider these people to have a shred of honor or compassion in their soul so negotiations with them were always going to be a shit show of horribleness and if I want to protest something, I’m not going to protest the folks who can’t get a bill on the floor and are trying to salvage anything they can. I’m going to protest the people doing the horrible. Meanwhile, folks are sitting around saying stuff like “we are heading towards authoritarianism” when we’ve already passed go and picked up the tacky overdone military suit of dictators, we’re just stopping briefly to figure out how far & how fast we travel down towards being the American Reich.
Gvg
@schrodingers_cat: tenguphule was doing that.
It may feel like we are belittling you, but actually we just disagree with you on what is possible and how to get it. However when multiple people tell you you are wrong, which happens on the Internet a lot due to a large audience, the pile on effect makes it feels like a really vicious attack.
I disagree with your conclusions, ok? I was talking to a crowd here even though I responded most directly to you, because you are perceived as a kind of leader in immigration knowledge here and speak the most about it.
You and tenguphule both seemed to me to be unrealistic about what democrats in congress as the minority can possibly do and preparing to blame them for losing ahead of an inevitable less than pleasant result. That kind of expectation setting can lead to depressing democratic voter support when we need it. We lost these fights November 2016 really. It’s just happening now that we are seeing some of the worst actual results. I am actually surprised it hasn’t been worse yet. If you and Tenguphule and other mad and gloomy commenters and lurkers go around saying “they” should have prevented/fought harder/ done something else, your words will spread to al your friends and family and ripple out to undercut the real possibility to solve the problem 2018 and 2020. Don’t accept that framing.
Nancy and Schumer have actually exceeded what was realistic so far. They are in a really bad position. The drop in democrats poll numbers over the last brief shutdown was really alarming. It wasn’t too bad because the got an agreement quick but I didn’t expect it and it has set me up to seeing other things. I am now expecting bad results on these issues for awhile. I do think after some large number of deportation unfair horrifying stories, the pendulum will swing again our way but we aren’t getting there without bad stuff.
I wish I wasn’t having to admit a bunch of Americans are xenophobs, but essentially that’s what’s what. Plenty of us aren’t so don’t give up, but this is a bad place and the three most powerful are all racist as f…..trump, Ryan & McConnel are all. T may talk the worst but I think the other 2 are just as bad based on actions before t even got on stage.
MisterForkbeard
@TenguPhule: I know this thread is basically over, but: Fuck you, you supercilious twit. Betty and others have noted that keeping the Dreamers and others from deported and trying to change the laws before they actually do get deported is much better than having Trump just deport all of them now. And your response is to say they’re abetting the fucking holocaust.
You’ve said a lot of stupid shit here, but this is the kind of crap you should be banned for. Get the fuck out.
SgrAstar
@satby: Satby, you’re on fire today!
schrodingers_cat
For the last time, I don’t blame Ds for the DACA mess. The blame lies squarely on the Rs.
TenguPhule
@Gvg:
No, I’m well aware of what they can’t do and won’t do. We’re going to be blamed anyway because the Dreamers are still going to be deported no matter what kind of agreement is reached. I just figured I’d point this out ahead of time so nobody can pretend to be surprised when the Republicans do exactly what I said they were going to do.
TenguPhule
@MisterForkbeard:
And I’ve repeatedly pointed out that this is not going to happen because there is no “better deal” with the GOP.
They fucking lie and change the terms on an ongoing basis. The Dreamers are SOL and nothing short of the GOP literally dropping dead en masse is going to change that simple fact. We can’t save them and conceding to the Republicans in the attempt is not a good idea.
Citizen Alan
@oldgold:
For which party? Because I really don’t believe you’re doing anything at all to support the Democratic Party no matter what BS you sprout here.
Citizen Alan
@Immanentize:
On a purely personal note, one of the saddest things about the current political situation is that I can never watch Rocky Horror Picture Show or Bull Durham again because the mere sight of that pampered sanctimonious purity troll makes me so angry that I want to throw something at the screen.
Miss Bianca
@Citizen Alan: or “Little Women”, either, which is a freaking great movie.
schrodingers_cat
deleted
dr. luba
@Arclite: You can get white migration from Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, Moldova without improving the safety net. But the rest of Europe? Not so much.
Omnes Omnibus
@Gvg: She isn’t wrong. Blowing up the immigration system is wrong. I know, dead thread.