Tweet, tweet, tweet

First, the bird kind. It’s windy as heck here today, and this little palm warbler (I think) was clinging to a swaying bamboo stalk about 35 feet up, surveying the scene:

This was right after sunrise today. A little while later, same bamboo stand, a blue jay occupied a high perch and considered breakfast options, settling on the bird feeder once the pink monkey with the camera vacated the scene:

Of course, as soon as I turned the camera off and replaced the lens cap, a squadron of Sandhill cranes flew overhead. They fly overhead every morning and evening, like they’re clocking in at the golf course down the road for a day’s bug patrol work. I’ll get a photo of them on the wing one day.

In other yard news, one of the white squirrels (I’m now convinced there are at least two) has lost most of its fur from the midsection up. I hope it’s just a temporary embarrassment and the fur returns. Its appetite seems unaffected. But it looks like a rat wearing white MC Hammer pants now and so is unintentionally comical. Poor thing!

Last and certainly least, the fraudulent orange fart cloud finally addressed the record-breaking stock market plunge that occurred earlier this week. (Was that really this week, not 10 fresh hells ago? I had to check. Yes!) Guess what — someone not named Donald Trump is to blame!

He really has no idea how any of this shit works.

Open thread!

248 replies
  1. 1
    cmorenc says:

    Calling Trump an “Orange fart cloud”? is an insult to fart clouds everywhere. You should apologize to fart clouds everywhere for the degrading comparison.

  2. 2
    smintheus says:

    I’m so old I remember the day the Stock Market tanked when news broke that the Iran-Iraq War was ending.

  3. 3
    MikeifromArlington says:

    He’s counting on his twitter followers to not understand how this shit works, and he’s probably right.

  4. 4

    This period is going to be a black mark against us in history. That so many of our fellow citizens so this inept and cruel person and decided to vote for him anyway. It was like cutting your nose to spite your face.
    His great accomplishment during the primaries was to come up with mean little insults for his opponents.
    Troll-in-chief, that’s what he is.

  5. 5
    rikyrah says:

    Fine line between legal fund and hush money

    Michael Beschloss, NBC News presidential historian, talks with Rachel Maddow about how legal defense funds built around presidential scandals often create scandals of their own.
    Feb.06.2018

  6. 6
    rikyrah says:

    Who’s funding a new Trump scandal lawyer fund

    Rachel Maddow follows up on an earlier TRMS scoop about the discovery of a Trump Russia scandal legal defense fund, and notes that unaccounted-for excess Trump inauguration money might find a way into such a fund.
    Feb.06.2018

  7. 7
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @cmorenc: Mar-a-lago Fatberg

  8. 8
    rikyrah says:

    New details on dossier’s path to FBI

    Tom Hamburger, national reporter for The Washington Post, talks with Rachel Maddow about Christopher Steele’s discoveries about Donald Trump and Russia compelled him to bring what he’d learned to the FBI’s attention.
    Feb.06.2018

  9. 9
    GregB says:

    News of the Minnesota caucuses.

    With all precincts reporting, almost 11,000 Republicans had participated in the caucus, barely more than half the 20,000 who showed up 2010 and well less than the 14,000 in 2014.”
    “On the DFL side, turnout was on its way to 30,000, more than the 22,500 who turned out in 2010, the last time there was an open governor’s race.”

    https://politicalwire.com/2018/02/07/minnesota-caucuses-offer-warning-republicans/

  10. 10
    rikyrah says:

    The politics of patriotism takes an ugly turn in the Trump era
    02/07/18 10:04 AM
    By Steve Benen

    Donald Trump, annoyed by Democratic reactions to his State of the Union address, told a group of supporters this week that Dems had adopted an “un-American” posture. The president added, “Can we call that treason? Why not? I mean, they certainly didn’t seem to love our country very much.”

    The White House later said the comments were “tongue in cheek.” Whether one is inclined to accept the explanation or not, Trump’s comments were not an isolated incident.

    [White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee Sanders] questioned the patriotism of Democrats who sat on their hands during Mr. Trump’s discussion of the thriving American economy. “Democrats are going to have to make a decision at some point really soon,” Ms. Sanders said. “Do they hate this president more than they love this country? And I hope the answer to that is, ‘No.’”

  11. 11
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    I once heard a reporter, probably on a slow news day on NPR’s Marketplace, admitting that nobody had any clue of the connection between news and stock trading. Financial reporters will just insert any story that sounds plausible to them in the second half of the sentence “stocks were up/down today on news that […..]” and 10 different reporters will offer 20 different reasons.

    And then he proved it by going around whatever financial reporters’ bar he was hanging out in instead of working, and getting all those different “reasons” from the people in the room.

    Edit: BTW, I hear the stock market rebounded yesterday on reports that Philadelphia was planning a parade for the Eagles to be held on Thursday.

  12. 12
    The Moar You Know says:

    He really has no idea how any of this shit works.

    Not a one of his voters do, either, so from the GOP’s perspective that is not a problem.

    At least he’s perfectly content with being a lazy ceremonial figurehead. If he decided to get off his ass and do anything besides tweet and hold parades, we’d have a real problem on our hands.

    ETA: also would like to point out that anyone who believes that the various stock/bond/equity markets obey some sort of cause/effect laws doesn’t understand how any of this shit works either. They are nothing more than a gigantic, complex roulette wheel. Or blackjack, take your pick. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

  13. 13
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    I was looking for a nice recording of “Let’s All Sing Like the Birdies Sing (Tweet Tweet Tweet Tweet Tweet)” to share. There a a lot of choices, but I finally settled on this one.

    No, that’s okay. There’s really no need to thank me.

  14. 14
    The Moar You Know says:

    oh man, I just violated every FYWP law in creation. Can someone spring my witty and sparkling comment from jail, please?

  15. 15
    rikyrah says:

    GOP lawmaker claims the Russia probe is ‘essentially birtherism’
    02/06/18 11:20 AM—UPDATED 02/06/18 12:57 PM
    By Steve Benen

    I’ve heard some creative Republican attempts to dismiss the Trump-Russia scandal, but TPM highlighted one yesterday that managed to surprise me.

    Rep. Tom Garrett (R-VA) on Monday compared special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election to the right-wing conspiracy theory that former President Barack Obama was not born in the United States.

    “Imagine that there were a partly political-funded investigation into President Obama’s place of birth, right? Because this Russia investigation is essentially birtherism,” Garrett said during an interview with CNN’s Brianna Keilar.

    ……………………

    Asked about the contacts between Russians and members of Team Trump during the Russians’ attack on the United States, the Virginia Republican said, “You don’t get to pick the people with whom you interact.”

  16. 16
    eric says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: the market went down on news that the market was going down, and went up on news that the market was going up. facile, but partly true.

  17. 17
    Ceci n est pas mon nym says:

    @GregB: The comments are kind of fun and looking (so far) pretty much un-trolled. The Luckovich cartoon is a little disturbing though.

    I like the “draft Franken” thought.

  18. 18
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @The Moar You Know: his incompetence is his only saving grace

  19. 19
  20. 20
    dmsilev says:

    @eric: Except for those times when the market goes up on news that the market is going down, and vice versa.

  21. 21
    rikyrah says:

    Elder students heard chanting racial, homophobic slurs during basketball game
    Saint X coach stopped game in third quarter to confront referees about the chanting

    CINCINNATI —
    There has been anger and outrage following a basketball game between Elder High School and Saint Xavier High School on Friday.

    Elder students could be heard chanting racial and homophobic slurs during the game, through three quarters, before the game was stopped.

    WLWT talked with the parents of two players who were targeted by the slurs.

    They said the scene was unbelievable.

    One of their sons was faced with chants of “welfare” while the other heard “P.F. Chang’s.”

    “I was sickened, just sickened,” Susan Stockman said.

    Stockman is reeling from what she witnessed at her son’s basketball game Friday night.

    What came from Elder’s student section was no show of sportmanship, she said.

    Her son, a junior at Saint X, was one of the targets.

    “They were relentless. It went as far as ‘Asian, open your eyes. Go play chess. P.F. Chang’s,'” Stockman said.

    Mina Jefferson heard it too.

    Her son, a Saint X senior, was also targeted by the student section dubbed “The Sixth Man.”

    “Very quickly, the cheers turned to what I phrased as microaggressions and racial slurs,” Jefferson said.

    She said students in that area yelled that her son was on crack and welfare.

  22. 22
    Kay says:

    @rikyrah:

    It’s really interesting that the NYTimes story about how the FBI had exonerated Trump scared them- they thought that meant it was going to be covered up.

    if anyone really gave a shit about the integrity of the FBI they’d take a close look at that “NY station” or whatever it is- they seem to be rogue actors, which is scary.

  23. 23
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @rikyrah:
    She assumes that “hating this president” and “loving the country” are mutually exclusive. Their not.

  24. 24
    Boatboy_srq says:

    @schrodingers_cat: A more apt analogy for tRump voters would be cutting off their heads to spite their noses.

  25. 25
    trnc says:

    @rikyrah: That reminds me that I read the earlier post about how multi-layered the Mueller investigation is and wondered why #5 on the list was the only one thought to reach directly into DT’s actions. I think #1 may also because I think bankrupting casinos was part of a money laundering scheme.

  26. 26
    japa21 says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: One could say that one of the reasons Trump is hated so much is because we love our country.

  27. 27

    Trump tweet: NEW FBI TEXTS ARE BOMBSHELLS!

    Columnist at Canada’s Globe and Mail:

  28. 28

    Jesus Christ that is one stupid tweet

  29. 29
    lgerard says:

    A picture of MC Hammer squirrel would be awesome

    Meanwhile, here is today’s dog riding a pony video

  30. 30
    geg6 says:

    Campus is closed due to dangerous driving conditions. Bad snow/ice/snow/ice storm here. Hunkering down and making an old fashioned pot roast for dinner tonight. Refuse to ruin a free day off on the Shitgibbon.

  31. 31
    NorthLeft12 says:

    But Betty, Deadbeat Donald is a bigly smart business genius!! He knows all the best financials. How can anyone dispute his in depth analyses?

  32. 32
    Brachiator says:

    At this point, Trump is just a tiresome old fart who tweets stuff just to hear himself spout off. He is his own tale told by an idiot.

  33. 33

    @schrodingers_cat: and @Boatboy_srq:
    Either way, I think it gets to the heart of the matter. Sheer spite, not just as motivation but as an overt moral value, was huge in Trump’s election. This is what we’re fighting.

  34. 34
    J R in WV says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    You didn’t violate all the FYWP rules, only the ones about gambling. You didn’t get into Cialis or other male enhancement preparations. So, better luck next time!!

  35. 35
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @japa21: I wonder what Hucksterbee Sanders’ reponse to that would be?

  36. 36

    @Brachiator: …full of fire and fury and unfortunately possessing a nuclear arsenal.

  37. 37
    different-church-lady says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    That so many of our fellow citizens so this inept and cruel person and decided to vote for him anyway.

    You’ve missed the mark here: they didn’t decide to vote for him “anyway” — the true horror is they voted for him because he was inept and cruel. They like inept and cruel.

  38. 38
    japa21 says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: She would get that dead look on her face and then go on to another question.

  39. 39
    bluefish says:

    Gorgeous photos of lovely birds.

    I hate this guy and his disgusting people — all I got.

  40. 40
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Yeah, no.

    The first inkling I ever had that maybe the stock market was was not a good indicator of how healthy the actual economy was when I noticed afternoon news reports would say things like “The jobs report released today showed a sharp increase in unemployment. Dow shot up 2%.”

    This was 20 or 30 years ago when, presumably, the Shitgibbon could sit still long enough to listen to 30 seconds of news.

  41. 41
    J R in WV says:

    @J R in WV:

    The trick, which I did NOT figure out myself, is to press either the bold face or italic command buttons in the middle of such words, so that they are spelled like Cia[it] [/it]lis to WordPress, and then are rendered to the public reading as the words about gambling or poker you wanted to appear.

    I used square brackets in my first example, but the HTML commands use the left pointy bracket which is the caps comma key () with the command between the two pointy brackets. You can see them by clicking on the Italic button in the middle of a comment and then clicking it again to insert the end Italic command.

    The whole internet is built around commands inside those pointy brackets, and newer functionality using more magical stuff that Major Major Major Major does all day every day. I only touched on that stuff in my career, which ended in 2008 (huzzah!) when I retired. In spite of the Bush Crash of that year, which we all recovered from thanks to President Obama’s skillful political management.

  42. 42
    Miss Bianca says:

    @rikyrah: “L’etat, c’est moi”, anyone?

  43. 43

    @different-church-lady:
    Eeyup. Both the inept and the cruel. They are truly Not Like Us.

  44. 44
    Miss Bianca says:

    @rikyrah: OK, this one takes all the fucking cakes away from Marie Antoinette. “Reverse birtherism”?!

  45. 45
    No Drought No More says:

    Andrea Mitchell was absolutely shell shocked just now when Eric Swalwell (D-Ca.) pointed out that Trump passed classified information to the Russians in the Oval Office. Swalwell did that while making clear it was an act consistent with a conspiracy to subvert our country from within. It looked as if Mitchell could’t believe her ears. It took her forever to sputter out her next (and rather incoherent) question, and ended the interview inquiring after- and I hope your sitting down, because this is a real shocker-.. inquiring after Hillary Clinton’s Fucking E-Mails.

    “And the Queen is bravely shouting
    What the hell is going on”?

    Jigsaw Puzzle
    Jagger-Richards

  46. 46
    HumboldtBlue says:

    One Reddit user has an interesting suggestion about what we should do with Donny Draft Dodger and his parade.

    Trump wants to stand on a balcony in a military outfit and be cheered by his adoring subjects. I say we give it to him. Let’s set him up as the new dictator of Syria. The USA gets to claim victory. The russians get their man in power. We get rid of Trump. Who knows maybe in the future we will get to overthrow his family.

    The only flaw, the poor Syrian people do not deserve that fate.

  47. 47
    The Moar You Know says:

    You’ve missed the mark here: they didn’t decide to vote for him “anyway” — the true horror is they voted for him because he was inept and cruel. They like inept and cruel.

    @different-church-lady: I wish this wasn’t true, but it is. Every Trump voter I know. They voted for him because he promised them he was going to do serious and real damage to an ethnic or socioeconomic group they didn’t like.

    They took those promises very seriously. They’ll forgive his lack of action for now. But when we get into year three of this presidency and the “shithole” people aren’t being deported, those voters are going to be pissed. And they are not going to be pissed at him. They’ll be pissed at whoever he blames for the lack of deportation/death camp action.

  48. 48
    The Moar You Know says:

    The trick, which I did NOT figure out myself, is to press either the bold face or italic command buttons in the middle of such words, so that they are spelled like Cia[it] [/it]lis to WordPress, and then are rendered to the public reading as the words about gambling or poker you wanted to appear.

    @J R in WV: That is a bone-stupid hack, like every other great hack! Beautiful. Wish I’d thought of it and thank you for sharing.

  49. 49
    randy khan says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym:

    Edit: BTW, I hear the stock market rebounded yesterday on reports that Philadelphia was planning a parade for the Eagles to be held on Thursday.

    Wait, a minute – I heard the rebound was because the Mets signed Todd Frazier.

  50. 50
    TenguPhule says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    “Reverse birtherism”?!

    Older then you think. Its been floated since at least last June. It just never got any traction because back then it was still a step too far for the majority of the knobslobbers in the GOP.

    They’ve become more complicit since then.

  51. 51
    Just One More Canuck says:

    @rikyrah:

    Asked about the contacts between Russians and members of Team Trump during the Russians’ attack on the United States, the Virginia Republican said, “You don’t get to pick the people with whom you interact.”

    Um, yeah, you kinda do get to pick them

  52. 52
    cleek says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    They’ll be pissed at whoever he blames for the lack of deportation/death camp action.

    [raises hand]
    it’ll be me.
    and you.
    all of us.

  53. 53
    Schlemazel says:

    @GregB:
    We had 36 in my precinct. Second most I have seen in 40 years of experience. 2008 we had a shade over 200 in my mixed race neighborhood. Sadly, most did not stay only stopped by to vote. This group may be more significant

  54. 54
    TenguPhule says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    They’ll be pissed at whoever he blames for the lack of deportation/death camp action.

    And what makes you think there will be a lack of those should he still be in power by then?

  55. 55
    jl says:

    There has been some good news about the economy, and in a sense, yes, it is due to Trump (there, I said it). The good news is that Trump and Trumpsters didn’t do anything that would mess up reasonably good macroeconomic policies implemented by Obama and his economic team, and his very excellent appointment of Yellen.

    That, or course, started to change when the GOP passed their tax scam, but the effects of that have only started to kick in. We have some early tentative signs of how that scam will not work at all the way its advocates claim it will. But we need to wait a few more months before we start understanding exactly how it will fail miserably, except as a giant cash transfer to the super rich.

  56. 56
    debit says:

    @Ceci n est pas mon nym: It’s so odd how the deluge of Franken accusers just dried up after they got his scalp. Just weird.

  57. 57
    germy says:

    @debit: Mission Accomplished.

  58. 58
    Elizabelle says:

    @Boatboy_srq: I like that analogy.

    Stuck in cafe near German train station that’s been closed for a bomb threat for almost 3 hours now. The bomb sniffing dog is getting a good workout.

  59. 59
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Because groups of armed, concerned citizens will step in to stop them?

  60. 60
    rikyrah says:

    Found this at TPV.
    I had never heard of this woman…have you?

    I want a movie on her.

    Black History Month: Pauli Murray.

    The wager was ten dollars. It was 1944, and the law students of Howard University were discussing how best to bring an end to Jim Crow. In the half century since Plessy v. Ferguson, lawyers had been chipping away at segregation by questioning the “equal” part of the “separate but equal” doctrine—arguing that, say, a specific black school was not truly equivalent to its white counterpart. Fed up with the limited and incremental results, one student in the class proposed a radical alternative: why not challenge the “separate” part instead?

    That student’s name was Pauli Murray. Her law-school peers were accustomed to being startled by her—she was the only woman among them and first in the class—but that day they laughed out loud. Her idea was both impractical and reckless, they told her; any challenge to Plessy would result in the Supreme Court affirming it instead. Undeterred, Murray told them they were wrong. Then, with the whole class as her witness, she made a bet with her professor, a man named Spottswood Robinson: ten bucks said Plessy would be overturned within twenty-five years.

    Murray was right. Plessy was overturned in a decade—and, when it was, Robinson owed her a lot more than ten dollars. In her final law-school paper, Murray had formalized the idea she’d hatched in class that day, arguing that segregation violated the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments of the United States Constitution. Some years later, when Robinson joined with Thurgood Marshall and others to try to end Jim Crow, he remembered Murray’s paper, fished it out of his files, and presented it to his colleagues—the team that, in 1954, successfully argued Brown v. Board of Education.

    By the time Murray learned of her contribution, she was nearing fifty, two-thirds of the way through a life as remarkable for its range as for its influence. A poet, writer, activist, labor organizer, legal theorist, and Episcopal priest, Murray palled around in her youth with Langston Hughes, joined James Baldwin at the MacDowell Colony the first year it admitted African-Americans, maintained a twenty-three-year friendship with Eleanor Roosevelt, and helped Betty Friedan found the National Organization for Women. Along the way, she articulated the intellectual foundations of two of the most important social-justice movements of the twentieth century: first, when she made her argument for overturning Plessy, and, later, when she co-wrote a law-review article subsequently used by a rising star at the A.C.L.U.—one Ruth Bader Ginsburg—to convince the Supreme Court that the Equal Protection Clause applies to women.

    This was Murray’s lifelong fate: to be both ahead of her time and behind the scenes. Two decades before the civil-rights movement of the nineteen-sixties, Murray was arrested for refusing to move to the back of a bus in Richmond, Virginia; organized sit-ins that successfully desegregated restaurants in Washington, D.C.; and, anticipating the Freedom Summer, urged her Howard classmates to head south to fight for civil rights and wondered how to “attract young white graduates of the great universities to come down and join with us.” And, four decades before another legal scholar, Kimberlé Williams Crenshaw, coined the term “intersectionality,” Murray insisted on the indivisibility of her identity and experience as an African-American, a worker, and a woman.

    Despite all this, Murray’s name is not well known today, especially among white Americans. The past few years, however, have seen a burst of interest in her life and work. She’s been sainted by the Episcopal Church, had a residential college named after her at Yale, where she was the first African-American to earn a doctorate of jurisprudence, and had her childhood home designated a National Historic Landmark by the Department of the Interior. Last year, Patricia Bell-Scott published “The Firebrand and the First Lady” (Knopf), an account of Murray’s relationship with Eleanor Roosevelt, and next month sees the publication of “Jane Crow: The Life of Pauli Murray” (Oxford), by the Barnard historian Rosalind Rosenberg.

    All this attention has not come about by chance. Historical figures aren’t human flotsam, swirling into public awareness at random intervals. Instead, they are almost always borne back to us on the current of our own times. In Murray’s case, it’s not simply that her public struggles on behalf of women, minorities, and the working class suddenly seem more relevant than ever. It’s that her private struggles—documented for the first time in all their fullness by Rosenberg—have recently become our public ones.

  61. 61
    TenguPhule says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Because groups of armed, concerned citizens will step in to stop them?

    Stop them? More likely enforcing them.

    The Republicans are increasingly going full Nazi. Not just the party leaders anymore. Their base is 75% there already.

  62. 62
    The Moar You Know says:

    It’s so odd how the deluge of Franken accusers just dried up after they got his scalp. Just weird.

    @debit: I expected that. It was a 100% Russian-funded and directed operation from start to finish. And we will fall for it again.

  63. 63
    bemused says:

    @rikyrah:

    Oh right, Republicans have absolutely no choice but to hang out with very dicey Russians.

    I’m guessing the Red Dawn movie is no longer on rightwing best movies ever list.

  64. 64
    JPL says:

    @rikyrah: What an amazing woman and thank you so much for sharing that.

  65. 65
    TenguPhule says:

    @bemused:

    I’m guessing the Red Dawn movie is no longer on rightwing best movies ever list.

    The remake involved North Koreans. Just saying.

  66. 66
    randy khan says:

    The stock market is fairly rational in the medium to long run, but not terribly rational day to day (and even less so with individual stocks). But part of the reason it looks irrational is that the specific things that matter to traders on a day to day basis aren’t the same as what matters to the economy in the long run.

    For instance, as a general rule, interest rate cut announcements from the Fed push U.S. stocks up while interest rate increase announcements push stocks down. This is not because traders are considering the underlying reason for the changes – cuts are related to a weak economy and increases are related to a strong economy (although it’s not a perfect fit in either case), which would suggest the opposite reaction. Instead, it’s because they are thinking about the impact on the pool of people who invest in stocks, who will be more inclined to invest in bonds when interest rates are high and in stocks when interest rates are low. So, when interest rates go up, demand for stocks goes down, and traders assume that means that prices will go down.

    Traders also are susceptible to trading based on their predictions, not on what actually is happening. This is a big problem for individual stocks because those predictions get built into prices and if a prediction is wrong, then the stock will react accordingly. (Last week, for instance, Apple announced a record quarter and provided guidance for its next quarter’s revenues that was well above what it made for the equivalent quarter in 2017, but the stock got hammered because analysts had predicted that the guidance would be higher than it actually was.) That stuff evens out in the long run, but on a day-to-day basis it moves stocks in strange ways.

  67. 67
    jl says:

    @debit: I think there is evidence that Franken and Conyers were tit-for-tat hit jobs to make sure there were Dem scalps along with GOPers who got in trouble over harassment. There were some suspicious rumblings about such things coming up in the near future from Trumpster thugs like Roger Stone before the stories broke in the news. I expected more, but seems like there has been so much bad behavior to reveal, that the GOPer hit squad understood that if they continued, open warfare on the front would take down too many and be ruinous.

    That is not excusing what Franken and Conyers did. But we know there are more people in Congress with a history of bad behavior who were not revealed to the pubic, and those two were targeted.

    I haven’t followed it closely so I don’t know if things have changed, but there was too little comment on how awful the Congressional procedure for harassment accusations against its members is. But looking into that doesn’t fit with the mindless ten second gotcha sound bite culture of our news. Maybe a longer investigative piece on something like 60 minutes will come out later, though that program often just stretches a ten second gotcha into 15 minutes, with as much preening by its celeb news actors squeezed in as possible.

  68. 68
    randy khan says:

    I just got “We are aware of all Internet traditions” as the rotating tag. That’s my favorite.

  69. 69
    TenguPhule says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    And we will fall for it again.

    Of course we will.

    The new standard established by Gillbrand is Execution upon Accusation.

    Her last words will be, “But I didn’t expect the Leopards to Eat My Face!”

  70. 70
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @randy khan:

    Edit: BTW, I hear the stock market rebounded yesterday on reports that Philadelphia was planning a parade for the Eagles to be held on Thursday.

    Wait, a minute – I heard the rebound was because the Mets signed Todd Frazier.

    Obligatory: ¿PORQUE NO LOS DOS?

  71. 71
    JPL says:

    Since this post is about the birds, I have a question. A hawk has taken to perch on my back gutter and more recently on a plant hangar in my back yard. Although Finch is under twenty pounds, I’m not concerned about him, but my son’s dog is a maltese and weighs six pounds. I’m thinking about using my bb gun just to scare it off. Are there any other ways to convince to fly elsewhere?

  72. 72
    TenguPhule says:

    @jl:

    I haven’t followed it closely so I don’t know if things have changed

    They passed a rule to prevent Congress from having sex with their staffers yesterday.

  73. 73
    Gravenstone says:

    @GregB: Seems to be a bit of an enthusiasm gap there, boys. (Go Team Democrat)

  74. 74
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @TenguPhule:
    I think you severely underestimate the will of people willing to do the right thing.

  75. 75
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @rikyrah:

    Wow. Fascinating, and I look forward to the book. Thanks — I always appreciate your ability to find and share great nuggets like this, but rarely take the time to tell you so.

  76. 76
    tobie says:

    @jl:

    That is not excusing what Franken and Conyers did.

    Sorry, I’m still not convinced that Franken did anything at all besides making a really stupid, sophomoric joke captured on camera–a joke moreover that was making fun of boorish sexism in boorish way that was alas too subtle for the media, the American public, and far too many Democratic senators.

  77. 77
    zhena gogolia says:

    @rikyrah:

    They just named a new residential college at Yale for her. I’d never heard of her either.

  78. 78
    bemused says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Huh, didn’t know that. Guessing it was as bad or worse than original.

  79. 79
    jl says:

    @TenguPhule: Is that a joke? Did they cancel the plan to start anti-harassment training by lecturing the staffers on how to not dress ‘provocatively’, as if there were not already a dress code? Does the procedure for handling a complaint still start with suspiciously lengthy and vaguely purposed ‘counseling sessions’ for the person who complains? Did they increase the transparency of the process so that serial harassers can no longer get off with multiple secret money settlements?

  80. 80
  81. 81
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Yeah, I have to admit I’m still not much finding it in my heart to forgive Gillibrand for leading that rush to judgment on Franken.

  82. 82
  83. 83
    Elizabelle says:

    @tobie: I thought about Al Franken this morning, when I heard Steve Wynn was resigning from his company. (Good riddance.). And that Franken will be tarred w belonging in a group of sexual offenders. To which he does not belong. Sickened by the Democratic senators and what they did.

  84. 84
    Kay says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    They are pissed and I know lower income people aren’t Trump’s base, but lower income people ARE pissed.

    One of my clients was ranting about welfare and he said something I had no response to- he said he’s drug tested at work so why shouldn’t welfare recipients be drug tested?

    He is drug tested at work. Most of them are. My son actually gets locked out for random drug testing- he goes to use his key card and it doesn’t work and that’s how he knows he’s the lucky winner that day.

    Anyway. I had no response to this complaint. They think it’s “unfair” and “fair” is such a powerful concept in US politics.

  85. 85
    TenguPhule says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    I think you severely underestimate will of people willing to do the right thing.

    Be good or be lawful?

    Deportations are legal and Trump can order ICE to ramp it up without ever breaking a single law.

    Death camps are a little trickier, but then again, Arizona showed how that can be done if you get a pardon at the end of it. Trump might blow it by moving too fast on it, but its not the certain failure I would have bet on just a year ago. There’s enough Nazis serving under him and enough rot in the system now that “Detention centers” for “illegals” could become escalated to the next stage. ICE is already sending refugees to probable death in their home countries right now, once someone in charge figures it would save them the cost of a plane ticket…..

  86. 86
  87. 87
    debit says:

    @tobie: Agreed. If he had never had that picture taken it couldn’t have been used it as a base for the rest of the accusations. People saw the image, then heard “he touched me/leered at me/groped my waist” and pictured him doing it.

    And just in case it wasn’t clear in my original comment, I was being sarcastic. I’m still incredibly angry and bitter.

  88. 88

    @randy khan: much of what the stock market does, on the day to day level, is because lots of traders are guessing that that’s what it’s going to do, and the moves they make as a result cause their guesses to become true.

    Worried that people will be worried and sell stock, bringing down the market? Time to sell stock!

  89. 89
    Elizabelle says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Fuck Kirsten Gillibrand. She did herself more damage than Franken. I hope. I deplore her. Although I wondered if the Vichy NY Times was setting her up too. But you do not destroy a colleague.

  90. 90
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    One of my clients was ranting about welfare and he said something I had no response to- he said he’s drug tested at work so why shouldn’t welfare recipients be drug tested?

    Because the drug test is supposed to be weeding out those unfit to perform their duties, not keep people from being able to eat?

  91. 91

    @jl:

    make sure there were Dem scalps along with GOPers who got in trouble over harassment.

    So when do we get to the high profile GOPers?

  92. 92
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I don’t think that’s going to fly. They’re going to see it as unfair. They hate the drug testing. It’s this huge thing in their lives.

  93. 93
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Because they’re working to eat, right? These are not great jobs. The only reason anyone goes to one is bare survival. Failing the drug test means they don’t eat that week, theoretically.

  94. 94
    TenguPhule says:

    @jl:

    Is that a joke?

    Sadly, no. They literally passed it yesterday


    House Explicitly Bans Sexual Relationships Between Lawmakers And Staffers

  95. 95
    Ksmiami says:

    @cleek: that’s why this is a fucking war- not a game

  96. 96
    tobie says:

    @debit: @Elizabelle: @SiubhanDuinne: So agree with all of you.

    @Another Scott: Thank FSM for Nancy Smash. She’s fighting for what’s right and knows that it’s important to leverage what little power she has as minority leader to do something for Dreamers. I’m mad as hell at Schumer for agreeing to a deadline after Feb 8 for a vote on some still unclear version of DACA. Shame on him for this. No wonder Latinos don’t think the Democratic party looks out for them. It doesn’t.

  97. 97
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Kay: “Two unfairs don’t make a fair” would be my response to that, but of course he’s got a point. Random drug testing, unless you actually have some valid reason for it – national security or driving heavy equipment are the only reasons I can think of – is blatantly unconstitutional, but businesses are doing it all the fucking time. If I were a candidate, I’d hope to get some traction by promising legislation that targeted insurance companies for this – making it illegal to base insurance rates for businesses based on their willingness to go along with this drug-testing BS.

  98. 98
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    One of my clients was ranting about welfare and he said something I had no response to- he said he’s drug tested at work so why shouldn’t welfare recipients be drug tested?

    Because the drug test is supposed to be weeding out those unfit to perform their duties, not keep people from being able to eat?

    Great answer!

    And you would expect this understanding to be common sense.

  99. 99
    Ohio Mom says:

    @rikyrah: Some background and subtext:

    Both schools are Catholic boys’ high schools but St. X is the academic elite. It is the only Catholic boys’ high with an entrance exam, and its reputation is that the classwork is rigorous. These boys are college-bound, and expected to be white collar professionals when they are done.

    Elder is a run-of-the-mill Catholic boys’ high from the, how shall I put this, the unsophisticated side of town. When I moved here in the very late 1970s, the typical Cincinnati cop was an Elder grad, though to be fair, since then there’s been a big effort to make the force more representative of the city at large.

    Given all that, I am not surprised to read that the Elder boys were pissed to see minority students on the Xavier team; given today’s climate, where among some it is now permissible and even admirable to let their bigot-flag fly, I am not surprised that they let their irritation be known, and loudly.

  100. 100
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    They know A LOT about drug tests, too. It’s this whole hotly discussed category. I don’t know if you’ve seen them but there’s special (probably bullshit) drinks at convenience stores- they’re wildly over-priced-, whole quasi-scientific theories on how to beat a test. So when they hear “drug testing welfare recipients” that seems fair to them because this is part of their lives.

  101. 101
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    I don’t think that’s going to fly. They’re going to see it as unfair. They hate the drug testing. It’s this huge thing in their lives.

    The problem is that the company does it typically because being drugged up on the clock poses a hazard to others at the workplace (usually involving equipment) or because of the risk of theft to fuel a drug habit. Most companies usually don’t like to pay for the tests unless one of those is true.

  102. 102
    Betty Cracker says:

    The Russian plot to turn (some) Democrats against Kirsten Gillibrand worked like a charm! 🙄

  103. 103
    patrick II says:

    He really has no idea how any of this shit works.

    Sure he does. It’s the Trumpocentric model. The whole universe circles around him and is there for his amusement and to honor him with sacrifice.

  104. 104
    trollhattan says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    So, if a text can be a BOMBSHELL and “we” are concerning ourselves with updating and upgrading our weapons arsenal, then we can do the upgrade FOR FREE by making BOMBSHELL TEXTS.

  105. 105
    Salvatore Napoli says:

    Not sure about the palm warbler. It is, indeed, a warbler, but unsure of species. Our palm warblers here in SE PA have nearly the same colors and markings as our chipmunks. Primarily brown with yellow bellies.

  106. 106
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    My son’s an electrician and it’s his understanding they get a reduced insurance rate with random testing. It really is random, too. He’ll go a year with no test and then get two in a month.

  107. 107
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @debit:

    If he had never had that picture taken it couldn’t have been used it as a base for the rest of the accusations.

    The real irony, of course, is that the stupid picture was the whole point of that shtick. The only point.

  108. 108
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    The only reason anyone goes to one is bare survival. Failing the drug test means they don’t eat that week, theoretically.

    Failing the drug test would also mean they’re risk to their fellow employees (operating equipment/machines) and/or a theft/embezzlement risk.

  109. 109
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Deleted. Duplicate comment.

  110. 110
    trollhattan says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    I am blamink moose and sqvirrel. Unknown whether sqvirrel is sporting a full fur coat.

  111. 111
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay: That would be the hazard to others risk. Which insurance likes to keep as low as possible. : )

  112. 112
    The Moar You Know says:

    I’m thinking about using my bb gun just to scare it off.

    @JPL: As I found out the awful way, you shoot a bird with a BB gun and that BB goes right through the feathers and lodges in the bird and kills it, slowly. Don’t, please don’t do that. Plus, since it’s a hawk, if you injure or kill it that’s a federal crime.

    You can get one of those Airsoft guns that shoot plastic BBs and blaze away with no guilt. I’ve had success against crows with that, and the crows are pretty persistent.

  113. 113
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I mean, I agree with you but they’re drawing this comparison and it doesn’t make sense to them. So if they get docked two weeks work for a positive screen they can go on assistance and no screen? This is what they will say. You have to start from the place that these are not “careers”. These people are going to work for one thing- to get paid and survive. The distinctions start to be so small they’re meaningless.

  114. 114
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: You can point them to Florida’s example: drug testing welfare recipients may make folks feel good because “fairness” but wastes taxpayer money. Other states had similar experiences with it.

  115. 115
    TenguPhule says:

    @tobie:

    I’m mad as hell at Schumer for agreeing to a deadline after Feb 8 for a vote on some still unclear version of DACA. Shame on him for this.

    Mad isn’t going to begin to describe what happens if he signs that 2 year agreement.

    Playing three dimensional chess with pigeons never ends well.

  116. 116
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Can’t these deportations and detention centers violate human rights laws? Can’t the intl’ community do something about it?

    Besides, just because something is legal doesn’t make it right. ICE is made up of human beings. They can be hurt just like anybody else. Overwhelming force against them will disrupt their operations.

  117. 117
    patrick II says:

    @rikyrah:

    Ms. Sanders said. “Do they hate this president more than they love this country? And I hope the answer to that is, ‘No.’”

    Once again confusing correlation and causation. The correct cause and effect: They love their country more therefore they hate Trump.

  118. 118
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Thanks. I ran into this same thing w/Obamacare. The out of pocket had to be equal or less to what they were paying w/employer provided or it wasn’t “fair”.

    It was HUGE to them. Obamacare could not be better than what they had.

  119. 119
    Soprano2 says:

    @debit: Yep, I will always believe the Franken thing was a right wing setup. The accusations kept dribbling out until he resigned, then they suddenly stopped. If he were really an abuser it wouldn’t have happened that way.

  120. 120
    The Moar You Know says:

    Because the drug test is supposed to be weeding out those unfit to perform their duties, not keep people from being able to eat?

    @TenguPhule: Bolded part is crap and you, I and everyone here knows it. It’s to strip any and all dignity from the lives of the proles.

    I get that point, I do. I don’t agree with it, but by damn I could not justify to anyone working one of these McJobs why they should get drug tested and a welfare recipient should not.

  121. 121
    Elizabelle says:

    @Betty Cracker: I wonder about that too. Is Roger Stone that smart?

    Anyhoo, Gillibrand brought it on herself. Could have waited for due process. Did not. Poor, poor judgement.

  122. 122
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @raven: let’s hope there’s not a Jasper Sanks in the bunch!

  123. 123
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    The Obamacare premoums were so close to what they were paying out of pocket for employer-provided I was convinced the crafters of that bill made sure they were in line with the norm- so subsidy plus 150 a month for just above 150% of poverty.

    I remember THE GUY who asked me- he was primed to be furious.

  124. 124

    @Another Scott: Good for Nancy. Now which serious centrist columnist will be the first to castigate her?

  125. 125
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    So if they get docked two weeks work for a positive screen they can go on assistance and no screen? This is what they will say. You have to start from the place that these are not “careers”. These people are going to work for one thing- to get paid and survive. The distinctions start to be so small they’re meaningless.

    I have no answers other then making civics courses mandatory education for at least 2 years in primary school to drum in to people that government is not a business.

    A business is interested in making money, it doesn’t give a shit about its workers beyond how they make it money. Workers who use drugs do so at their own peril because the business only cares that work be done without costing it extra in injuries, deaths, malpractice and theft.

    A government’s primary purpose is to provide support for its citizens. In the case of welfare, just enough money to keep them alive when they’ve been kicked down to the lowest of the low. Its not supposed to care if some of them are using, because the concern is supposed to be about just keeping them alive. Addiction is someone else’s department’s problem to handle.

  126. 126
    The Moar You Know says:

    You can point them to Florida’s example: drug testing welfare recipients may make folks feel good because “fairness” but wastes taxpayer money. Other states had similar experiences with it.

    @Betty Cracker: Do you actually think a guy stocking tools at Home Depot gives a shit about “wasting taxpayer money” when he MUST lose a day of work every month to go sit in a shitty, dirty exam room and pee in front a rent-a-cop on his own time? No, he’s going to want every motherfucker in the world tested. Everyone to be humiliated the same way he is humiliated every month or two.

    I mean, if you want fairness here, ban all drug testing, period. It does no good. Every study proves it. But we won’t.

  127. 127
    Brachiator says:

    @rikyrah:

    I had never heard of this woman…have you?

    I want a movie on her.

    I’d buy a ticket. It is good to see this remarkable woman’s achievements acknowledged. There are more women of color whose contributions to the civil rights movement need to be recovered and celebrated.

    Another, who might have been mentioned by someone here before, is Mary Hamilton:

    Mary Hamilton was found in contempt of court in Alabama, when she refused to answer questions after the prosecution addressed her only by her first name. The U.S. Supreme Court later ruled in her favor.

    Seemingly a small thing, she defied and broke the racist tradition by which white Southerners referred to black people by their first names, denying them the dignity of acknowledging them as equal beings.

    She became active in the Civil Rights movement, joined the Congress of Racial Equality (CORE) and later became CORE’s Southern regional director.

  128. 128
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @The Moar You Know: Oh I am sure Trump incompetence is a plus to those folks too. Remember they also hate collage educated whites for being to clever. The whole idea is being the right kind of white is all that should be needed for success.

  129. 129
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I do think there has to be a recognition that really low wage workers have very little incentive to work. This is the real thing- they’re constantly right on the edge of being “nonworkers” because really, 250 bucks a week for some of these miserable jobs is just not enough to get worked up over.

    That’s where I run into the real resentment and accusations of “lazy”- they’re RIGHT above welfare. It’s hard to hate them because they are by no means “privileged”- they’re powerless so they punch down.

  130. 130
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Kay: I would say that he is right in that arbitrarily drug testing him and his co-workers is wrong — okay, maybe if he had performance issues at work and his supervisors had reasons to be suspicious, and I’d also say safety concerns rate, but just out of the blue for no reason except to make the drug testing company a profit?

    No, I have never thought this was ethical. Especially since you can be an alcoholic and still pass those tests.

    It is just a way to intimidate workers.

    And I would point out the old saw, Two wrongs don’t make a right. Drug-testing welfare recipients isn’t going to get him treated more fairly by his employers.

    Plus, experience and research has shown it is a tremendous waste of this fellow’s taxes. Maybe if his employer wasn’t wasting money on drug-testing willy-bully, there’d be money for a raise.

    On a related note, there is a black working-class neighborhood not too far from mine that was overrun with drug dealers. A quick drive around made it easy to see why: it is surrounded on three sides by very affluent areas; to the immediate east is the Village of Indian Hill, which is where the multi-millionaires live. That was the customer base. And you can bet none of them work places where they are regularly drug-tested.

  131. 131
    Mike in NC says:

    Fat Bastard is such a petty, demented man-child. One minute he’s in favor of shutting down government, the next he’s musing about spending millions on a big beautiful parade to honor himself. A parade with tanks and giraffes and acrobats. Let’s include thousands of furloughed government employees and contractors, each carrying a FUCK TRUMP sign. I might tune in to watch that.

  132. 132
    TenguPhule says:

    @schrodingers_cat: @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Can’t these deportations and detention centers violate human rights laws? Can’t the intl’ community do something about it?

    Guantanamo Bay is a blatant human rights violation. It’s still open with the blessing of Congress. And Democrats do not get a pass on this one.

    We didn’t sign off on a lot of the treaties that would put us under international review for this kind of shit. Blame Congress again for that.

  133. 133
    JPL says:

    @The Moar You Know: I wasn’t going to shoot it, just use it for the noise and fear factor. Nona is not allowed outside by herself and if the hawk were to go towards her, then I’d shoot it. just sayin

    Edit. I don’t keep bird food out, but do have a large yard which is partially wooded. Lots of yummy food for a hawk.
    Clanging pans might be better, and I am going to take down the plant hangars.

  134. 134
    MomSense says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    I HATE THAT ORANGE MOTHERFUCKER AND WANT THIS NIGHTMARE OVER WITH ALREADY

  135. 135
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay: Well there was a woman who, if elected president, was going to work to get them better wages and working conditions….

    I understand the anger, I just wish we could redirect it at the proper targets.

  136. 136
    Mandalay says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Do you actually think a guy stocking tools at Home Depot gives a shit about “wasting taxpayer money” when he MUST lose a day of work every month to go sit in a shitty, dirty exam room and pee in front a rent-a-cop on his own time?

    Got a link to support that pile of bullshit?

  137. 137
    TenguPhule says:

    @MomSense: Come sit by me.

  138. 138
    Betty Cracker says:

    @The Moar You Know: It’s unconstitutional IMO and should be banned. But yeah, I DO expect taxpayers to care about wasting taxpayer dollars. That doesn’t seem like a big ask. I’ve been forced to piss in a cup myself, and it never occurred to me to wish that experience on everyone else in the world, and I’m not even particularly nice. I would call such a person an “asshole.”

  139. 139
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @debit:

    f he had never had that picture taken it couldn’t have been used it as a base for the rest of the accusations.

    Disagree. Without that photo, they would have used something else, didn’t matter what. Same with Hillary’s email server. And they can create faux scandals out of thin air, such as birtherism.

  140. 140
    efgoldman says:

    @raven:

    This class is basically a Death Star.

    Meaning Kirby will be fired by Thanksgiving

  141. 141
    jl says:

    @TenguPhule: I don’t think criminalizing relationships is a good idea, since likely to simply drive things going on further underground. And is only the Congressperson liable to criminal penalty or the staffer too? Details like that make a big difference in how the powerful can manipulate the system. Probably not many legitimate emotional relationships would be affected, since seems like 99.9% of the problem is serial and ruthless predation by the Congressmen.

    But, from what I read in the link, the other reforms might be a start.

    Edit: When I see Congress criminalizing behavior I wonder whether that is symbolic BS meant to signal that they are really serious about this stuff now, boy you betcah. What it will actually accomplish is another issue. I’d need to now the details before deciding whether it is a good idea or not. Though my prejudice is that no good ideas can emerge from this Congress, to be honest.

  142. 142
    danielx says:

    He really has no idea of how anything works, aside from manipulating people for personal advantage. That part he has down, although he’s not as good at it as he used to be.

  143. 143
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Elizabelle: FWIW, I was being sarcastic, mainly because I still don’t get all the Gillibrand hate. But it is what it is — from past threads, I don’t think anyone’s mind is going to change on that issue.

  144. 144
    The Moar You Know says:

    Got a link to support that pile of bullshit?

    @Mandalay: Home Depot drug tests regularly. You have taken a drug test, yes? What else do you need?

    ETA: you sure as shit don’t get paid for getting tested – you’re not working.

  145. 145
    Ohio Mom says:

    @Ohio Mom: Okay, I read the other comments. Others said what I said (often better), I see the insurance premium angle. And it is too hard to convince people that their ire should be directed upwards to the ultra-wealthy and not downwards to the unemployed poor. Sigh…

  146. 146
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    mainly because I still don’t get all the Gillibrand hate

    Execution upon Accusation wasn’t clear enough?

  147. 147
    JPL says:

    @efgoldman: Stay warm and be careful of the ice.

  148. 148
    No One You Know says:

    @JPL: I’d identify the hawk first and establish what prey it likes. Then show it that there’s no food.

    That’ll vary by where you live, but some guesstimates:

    A copper-colored tail is a Red-tailed hawk. Keep the dog in or in a shielded runway.

    A square-headed hawk is a Cooper’s. It prefers birds. Protect your feeders. The dog is probably fine.

    And so on.

    I’m not a fan of shooting guns off, even BBs (which I did shoot, as a girl). You want to deter all hawks, not just one hawk, and that means removing temptation.

    My .02.

  149. 149
    TenguPhule says:

    @jl:

    I don’t think criminalizing relationships is a good idea, since likely to simply drive things going on further underground.

    Consent becomes an issue when the balance of power is not equal.

    I just find it sad that it had to written down to make it clear when it should be obvious.

  150. 150
    efgoldman says:

    @Kay:

    My son’s an electrician

    I can see some (small) justification for testing in that case. There are a zillion small mistakes he could theoretically make that could subsequently cause damage to people or property. A carpenter or hod carrier maybe not so much

  151. 151
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Betty Cracker: The Russian plot to turn (some) Democrats against Kirsten Gillibrand worked like a charm!

    I was in the car about an hour ago, and this came up on MSNBC. A female pundit whose name I didn’t catch was talking about KG’s political calculation in knifing Franken, very confidently asserting as fact that it was all cynical 2020 calculation. But before that, the topic was Steve Wynn, including his $7.5 million pay-out to a manicurist. This same woman said, “Well it occurs to me I’m in the wrong line of work, I should have been doing nails.” Andrea Mitchell and Susan Page, laughed along, Mitchell making a half-hearted “now, now” type comment. Did anyone else see this, or catch who the woman was. She was also deeply Concerned about MeToo having gone too far.

  152. 152
    Mandalay says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Home Depot drug tests regularly.

    No they don’t. You made a bold and detailed but completely false claim. Where’s your link to support it?

    Oh, you don’t have one?….thought not.

  153. 153
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Anyhoo, Gillibrand brought it on herself. Could have waited for due process. Did not. Poor, poor judgement.

    Exactly. Practically the first thing Franken did (after the first accusation surfaced) was request an ethics investigation. Why Gillibrand couldn’t have allowed that process to play out made no sense to me at the time, and makes no sense to me now.

  154. 154
    jl says:

    @TenguPhule: I agree, The issue is whether they put any tricks into the way the behavior was criminalized that affects staffers’ relative power in abusive situations, and whether another approach to sanction would be better. My main concern is whether staffer could get into criminal legal trouble. I couldn’t tell from the link, but I read it quickly.

  155. 155
    TenguPhule says:

    @efgoldman:

    A carpenter or hod carrier maybe not so much

    It was all fun and games until the blood started spraying.

  156. 156
    JPL says:

    @No One You Know: Since my lot is wooded there are all sorts of goodies including chipmunks, voles and field mice. It was larger than a Cooper’s Hawk, and has a straight tail. The breast was tinted yellow. I am hoping that it is just passing through. The cooper hawks tend to stay away since I don’t have bird food. We’ve had stormy weather today, and I haven’t seen it.
    Only the hawks can remove all the temptation, although my mutt has delivered a bunny and field mice to me.

  157. 157
    The Moar You Know says:

    No they don’t. You made a bold and detailed but completely false claim. Where’s your link to support it?

    Oh, you don’t have one?….thought not.

    @Mandalay: Don’t need a link. My neighbor has worked there for a decade and he gets nailed every quarter. Day off, down to the lab, mouth swab or cup. Are you a fucking shareholder or management or something similar?

  158. 158
    SgrAstar says:

    @rikyrah: Thanks for this heads up, rikyrah! Pauli Murray was an incredible person. Looking forward to learning more about her. I really appreciate your contributions to BJ, btw.

  159. 159
    TenguPhule says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    My neighbor has worked there for a decade and he gets nailed every quarter. Day off, down to the lab, mouth swab or cup.

    Let me guess, he’s not white?

  160. 160
    trollhattan says:

    @patrick II:
    Required reframe: “Do they love the country enough to hate this president?”

    All shall hail Possum Queen.

  161. 161
    Patricia Kayden says:

    So Trump isn’t going to extend DACA beyond March’s expiration. I guess the deportation of Brown/Black people can continue in earnest at that point in time unless Democrats give in to his demand to spend billions of tax payer dollars on a useless wall.

  162. 162
    The Moar You Know says:

    Let me guess, he’s not white?

    @TenguPhule: No, he’s not. How on Earth did you guess?

  163. 163
    Another Scott says:

    @tobie: In fairness to Chuck, Nancy is simply asking for the same deal that Chuck got. Nothing more.

    It sucks to be in the minority, but Chuck (and now Nancy) are playing their weak hands as best they can.

    We need to give them strong majorities in November.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  164. 164
    trollhattan says:

    How the hell did these WH dudes all manage to find one another?

    White House staff secretary Rob Porter has resigned over abuse allegations by his ex-wives. Porter’s second wife, Jennifer Willoughby, told reporters he was physically abusive during their marriage, which left her “walking on eggshells” to avoid his explosive anger.

    His first wife, Colbie Holderness, confirmed she left Porter because “he was verbally, emotionally and physically abusive.” She shared photos of herself with a black eye she claims Porter gave her. Both women say they informed the FBI about Porter’s abuse during a background check before he started working at the White House.

    President Donald Trump’s chief of staff John Kelly defended Porter after the women went public, saying the White House official was “a man of true integrity and honor, and I can’t say enough good things about him.”

    Let me pause a moment for one giant fuck you, John Kelly! Thanks.

    But Porter, who denies the allegations, stepped down Wednesday.

  165. 165
    Mandalay says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Don’t need a link.

    Well you do actually, because you are full of shit. I just spoke to someone I know who has worked in an HD store for five years and they insisted that there is no random drug testing for anyone. Everyone gets drug tested before they start, and if they are involved in a workplace accident, and that’s it.

    Your flowery claim that when

    he MUST lose a day of work every month to go sit in a shitty, dirty exam room and pee in front a rent-a-cop on his own time

    is a fabrication.

  166. 166
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Because the drug test is supposed to be weeding out those unfit to perform their duties, not keep people from being able to eat?

    I thought it was a sign of incomptent, lazy management. They do drug testing on all kinds of jobs it’s hard to see the justification for it like assembler. I had to get tested for job and then deliberately turned them down after they made the offer (like the night before the day was supposed to I start) because the whole drug testing is so insulting.

  167. 167
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: I don’t accept your framing. But like I said, no one’s mind will change on this.

    @SiubhanDuinne: And Claire McCaskill, Maggie Hassan, Mazie Hirono, Patty Murray and Kamala Harris. But Gillibrand is the devil. That’s the part I don’t get.

  168. 168
    JPL says:

    @trollhattan: Hope Hicks has been seen outside of work with him. Supposedly her previous friend was Corey, who grabbed and pushed a female reporter.

  169. 169
    The Moar You Know says:

    Well you do actually, because you are full of shit.

    @Mandalay: Let’s make something VERY clear, motherfucker. I am not your bitch and I don’t take your orders. I have told you what has been told to me and if you don’t like it, tough shit.

    Don’t ever tell me what to do again.

  170. 170
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Kay:

    One of my clients was ranting about welfare and he said something I had no response to- he said he’s drug tested at work so why shouldn’t welfare recipients be drug tested?

    As usual, he’s asking the wrong question: why is he being drug tested at work? Does he have a job that impacts public safety (like airline pilot or bus driver)?

    If not, why do they get to test him at work?

    He should be pissed at his employer for testing him, not at people who don’t get tested. Should I be forced to start getting drug tested at my job just because he is?

  171. 171
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: I can’t let it go, either. So stupid and wrong.

  172. 172
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @The Moar You Know: Ever heard the phrase “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? When what you are alleging is unsupported either by published company policy or by available evidence on the Internet (i.e. question/answer sites like Quora, Reddit, Indeed, etc., where you can find scores of answers supporting Mandalay’s position and not a one supporting yours) then a large dose of skepticism is natural. You are free, of course, to decline to provide evidence, but you are, it seems to me, unlikely to convince anyone.

  173. 173
  174. 174
    tobie says:

    @Betty Cracker: Gillibrand came out first against Franken and was the most vocal in calling for him to step down. The others joined her, which is no mark distinction for them, but with the exception of Hirono I don’t believe any of the others went on TV and criticized him.

  175. 175
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Mnemosyne: I think insurers are driving a lot of this drug testing nonsense. I was working at an agency as a copywriter many moons ago and got a promotion after I’d been there a couple of years. Yay! But then they told me I had to go pee in a cup before I could start the new job! I did it (and passed — whew!), but it made no sense: I’d been working there for a couple of years, so they knew I wasn’t a druggie, and if I made a mistake on that job, it would hardly be a life-threatening event anyway. Turns out their insurance broker gave them a cheaper policy if they drug-tested every new hire. I don’t see how this passes constitutional muster, but I am not a lawyer.

  176. 176
    Mandalay says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    Don’t ever tell me what to do again.

    Well stop posting stories which are obviously fabrications. How d’you like them apples you lying motherfucker?

  177. 177
    WaterGirl says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: @Elizabelle: I don’t think the Republicans were willing to let the ethics investigation play out because it would have been pandora’s box for them. So I completely believe that they got a few more women came forward; even with lame accusations, they had the desired effect when KG rallied everyone to turn against Franken and push him out. They fell right into the Republican’s plan. Call it stupid, callout short-sighted, call it pushing Franken out of the way for 2020 – whatever the reasons, I am still upset about this.

  178. 178
    efgoldman says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Turns out their insurance broker gave them a cheaper policy if they drug-tested every new hire.

    Decades before drug testing became fashionable, I worked for two companies in a row that required mandatory [perfunctory] physicals before starting. The companies paid for it. I was salaried, so no loss of pay. Hourly new hires were compensated two hours pay, if memory serves.

  179. 179
    Betty Cracker says:

    @tobie: It was a coordinated take-down: Gillibrand sent the first tweet, but the others I mentioned above followed up within minutes. It was pre-planned, and it happened after a still-unnamed congressional aide accused Franken of being inappropriate with her. I suspect they knew that person and that was the last straw.

    I can understand people thinking it was unfair to Franken, but the rush to hold Gillibrand and only Gillibrand responsible is irrational, IMO. It reminds me of the mindless antipathy (in some quarters) toward Hillary Clinton.

  180. 180
    randy khan says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    That’s definitely true. Stock traders are lemmings. Of course, since they make their money daily (well, really trade-by-trade), not over long periods of time, it makes sense for them to be lemmings.

    I’ve learned a lot about the markets from reading Michael Lewis, more the attitudes than the mechanics, but that makes a big difference in understanding how traders think and how that affects the market.

  181. 181
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I don’t think criminalizing relationships is a good idea, since likely to simply drive things going on further underground.

    Consent becomes an issue when the balance of power is not equal.

    Often the issue of any so-called balance of power is irrelevant. And in the end, the people involved who really want to be with each other will find a way to do so, rules be damned.

  182. 182
    trollhattan says:

    @JPL:
    What the hell, Stockholm Syndrome? Blink three times, Ms Hicks, if they’re making you sleep in an East Wing closet.

  183. 183
    Betty Cracker says:

    @efgoldman: My husband has to take a swimming test every two years (his work requires him to operate a small boat sometimes). I think he has to swim 100 yards in a pool. He’s salaried, so no extra pay. Boo!

  184. 184
    TenguPhule says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    I thought it was a sign of incomptent, lazy management.

    It depends. I’ve worked in places where we got drug tested once at the start and never again. Wasn’t a big deal because we counted money and had access to company products.

    And then there were places where being drunk or high on the job could get a person killed. I’ve worked in a couple of those too and heard no complaints about testing there. Bad enough when regular accidents happened, nobody wanted some damn fool to make things even more hazardous.

    But yeah, I can understand where a boring, mind numbing job would make drug testing seem like another of life’s kicks to the crotch.

  185. 185
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    Should I be forced to start getting drug tested at my job just because he is?

    Him: “YES!”

    /You walked right into that one.

  186. 186
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Betty Cracker: I’ve been ambivalent about the whole Franken situation, and in Gillibrand’s case it really ought to be remembered that she started her Senate career taking on the military over sexual assault. Not exactly a safe and easy political ploy. But that story from a Dem staffer (has that been confirmed about the source?) is really hard for me to credit– it’s just too perfectly resonant with “when you’re a star…”. Also that the whole avalanche came down on the same day as the Tina Dupuy story is another added layer of weirdness that makes the whole thing hard to accept.

  187. 187
    randy khan says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Why Gillibrand couldn’t have allowed that process to play out made no sense to me at the time, and makes no sense to me now.

    People who have an expectation of due process in politics are going to be disappointed pretty much continuously. It doesn’t exist.

    I don’t think this was Gillibrand’s finest hour by any means, but it doesn’t happen unless she has essentially all of the women in the Senate Democratic caucus on her side. I think they all made the same calculation, which was that (1) the drip-drip-drip was going to continue more or less forever; (2) it was hurting the Dems politically; and (3) in the long run Franken was going to have to resign regardless of the merits. I’m not convinced that item (3) was correct, but (1) and (2) sure look right to me.

  188. 188
    Kay says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I looked it up and Florida offers a worker’s comp reduction for “drug free” workplaces :)

  189. 189
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Betty Cracker: Same with my ex-employer. I really think that there does need to be more recognition of how much insurance companies really are driving this drug-testing bus, because maybe *then* we could start having the “how is this even constitional?” conversation.

    It’s weird, because one job I applied for in a nearby town – which was one of the first to embrace both medical and recreational cannabis as retail outlets – had, purpotedly, recently done away with the entrance drug test, because they were having such a hard time finding otherwise-qualified candidates who would pass it! And this was a contract position with the US Post Office, for all love!

  190. 190
    randy khan says:

    @Kay:

    On the topic of lazy poor people, I recall a post a while back by Booman about his experience working with poor people, which was exactly the opposite – they were scrambling to make ends meet any way they could.

  191. 191
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    and it happened after a still-unnamed congressional aide accused Franken of being inappropriate with her.

    Alleged congressional aide. Funny that.

    I suspect they knew that person and that was the last straw.

    And this is where the problem starts. You assumed.

    And the result was Execution upon accusation.

  192. 192
    Kay says:

    @TenguPhule:

    A lot of it seems to revolve around driving a forklift- accidents with forklifts. I guess even “line” employees could get in the way of a forklift.

  193. 193
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Miss Bianca: btw, does anyone have any idea what triggers the FYWP “you do not have permission to edit this comment” window?

  194. 194
    TenguPhule says:

    @randy khan:

    but (1) and (2) sure look right to me.

    And of course we get (1) and (2) forever, because the GOP now knows what works.

  195. 195
    Kay says:

    @randy khan:

    Since we’re on the subject, I also think very low wage people can compare welfare recipients to their own situation because they live among welfare recipients. So if you’re going to your crap job and suffering all kinds of humiliations and your neighbor is not going you want that evened up in a way maybe perhaps someone in my neighborhood does not, because I don’t live in a poor neighborhood.

    Direct comparisons are possible.

  196. 196
    Brachiator says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    He should be pissed at his employer for testing him, not at people who don’t get tested. Should I be forced to start getting drug tested at my job just because he is?

    Of course in Southern California, as an example, there are ad agencies, entertainment industry companies, etc, where there is no drug testing because, if there were, practically the entire work force would be dirty, particularly the executives and owners.

    And of course, some drugs are more equal than others. Come back buzzed from a few lunchtime drinks, no problem.

    But in the end, most of the time, even if drug use affects job performance, people and the workplace adjust.

  197. 197
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Turns out their insurance broker gave them a cheaper policy if they drug-tested every new hire.

    There is a difference between testing at the start of a job and ongoing random testing in the workplace.

    Just saying.

  198. 198
    dww44 says:

    @Betty Cracker: As a much older lifelong liberal, albeit, Southern, Democrat, I believe, and frankly hope, that Gillebrand did serious damage to her chances to become a Dem Presidential nominee contender when she lead the charge to pressure Franken to resign his seat without giving him the chance to publicly defend himself. I think the whole episode was very telling about her ability or not to read the public mood.

    Of all the possible candidates for the Dem nomination she was already near the bottom of my list and with that move she went straight to the bottom.

  199. 199
    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    But in the end, most of the time, even if drug use affects job performance, people and the workplace adjust.

    Does not apply to any business involving vehicles, large operating machinery, explosives or combustible materials, dealing with children….etc.

  200. 200
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yeah, “ambivalent” captures my feelings about the whole thing too. Regarding the congressional aide, she was never named (at her request), but Politico claims to have talked to two other women who corroborated her story. Could be Russians all the way down, who knows?

    @TenguPhule: There’s a difference between “suspect” and “assume.” You could look it up.

  201. 201
    randy khan says:

    @TenguPhule:

    And yet we don’t have any accusations against Chuck Schumer.

    Like Betty, I really don’t understand the apparently all-consuming hatred of Gillibrand that some people have because of this. I loved Franken as a Senator for many reasons, but I also can tell you that there were a lot of people on our side of the fence who were getting more and more uncomfortable with him as time went on. (My Facebook feed may be a small sample size, but I could see it there, for instance.) It’s certainly reasonable to disagree about whether the handwriting already was on the wall, but it seems to me it’s unreasonable to say Gillibrand and all of the other female Dem Senators were unequivocally wrong from a political point of view to decide that it was or would be very soon.

  202. 202
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Brachiator:

    And you would expect this understanding to be common sense.

    Then you should have no problems with random drug testing at your job too.

  203. 203
    Boatboy_srq says:

    @The Moar You Know: One more reason his resignation is not entirely inappropriate, and one more reason he should run again.

  204. 204
    Brachiator says:

    @Kay:

    Since we’re on the subject, I also think very low wage people can compare welfare recipients to their own situation because they live among welfare recipients.

    I don’t think this is true at all or representative of reality.

  205. 205
    Kay says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    If not, why do they get to test him at work?

    Well, my 60 seconds of legal research seems to indicate that in many states they just need a safety justification and lots and lots of jobs would have that. You could see it- a fryer in a fast food restaurant is dangerous. Other than clerical work I think I could come up with “safety” for just about any job.

  206. 206
    Betty Cracker says:

    @dww44: Fair enough, but if that’s your conclusion about Gillibrand, it should apply to the other Democratic women senators who coordinated the effort to oust Franken with her: McCaskill, Hassan, Hirono, Murray and Harris. There’s no way on earth it was a coincidence that they all sent tweets within five minutes of Gillibrand’s with essentially the same message.

  207. 207
    Kay says:

    @Brachiator:

    Why not? We have low income housing a mile from here. Some have jobs and some do not. The people going to work are probably acutely aware of the people who aren’t. I don’t live in low income housing so I wouldn’t see that difference.

  208. 208
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @TenguPhule: Did you miss my point they are just slapping this on any low skilled job they can get away with it? Do you think a stoned “mechanical assembler”, who the most serious tool they use is a screw driver, justifies this? How about random drug testing were you have to take a half day off of work at random with no pay, so the CEO feels happy no one is taking the demon weed in evening in his company?

  209. 209
    gvg says:

    I have problems with so called drug testing. It’s marijuana testing not
    drug” testing. You would have to test for scores of different things to be a complete drug test and they don’t. maybe a few other things are checked but not everything. Next, my understanding is that marijuana lingers and if you breathed it awhile back (weeks) you still can test positive. It’s not useful to know someone toked or was around someone more than a few hours ago. It doesn’t impact ability to do the job. Of course some jobs are testing obeying the law, which is different but mostly it doesn’t matter.
    real drug testing for safety would need to figure out what drugs were actually a problem for that job and then have cheap tests for too high amounts, not zero. We would need charts that said this weight needs this much time to be safe to do this kind of job like alcohol. Some over the counter and prescription meds would also be at issue if it was really about safety.
    We aren’t doing that. It’s a bunch of nonsense, almost as stupid as lie detector tests. I don’t want people high on anything driving forklifts around me while I shop, but after the high wears off I don’t see that it’s any of my business nor the insurance company.
    s for welfare testing, it serves no purpose. its just moralizing about how people spend their money. it really means they don’t want to give anyone any money and are looking for an excuse not to.

  210. 210
    TenguPhule says:

    @randy khan:

    And yet we don’t have any accusations against Chuck Schumer.

    Yet.

    Of course Schumer did kind of just give away the store with a 2 year budget deal so I could see why they’d leave him be.

    But actual threats among the Democrats seemed to be targeted quite precisely.

    We’ll know for sure if any other Democrat making a name for themselves finds themselves in a sexual harassment scandal right before elections.

  211. 211
    Brachiator says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    And you would expect this understanding to be common sense.

    Then you should have no problems with random drug testing at your job too.

    I didn’t think that viewing the poster’s comment as common sense indicated any particular position on drug testing. But I don’t see any comparison between job related drug testing and forcing people to get drug tests before they could get welfare.

    I am not an owner of the company that I work for, so I don’t have any say about drug testing. So whether or not I have a problem with it is not really relevant.

    I think drug testing is largely a waste of time and, as others have noted, probably more related to insurance premiums than anything else. If there were some referendum and I could vote it down, I would gladly do so.

  212. 212
    TenguPhule says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Did you miss my point they are just slapping this on any low skilled job they can get away with it? Do you think a stoned “mechanical assembler”, who the most serious tool they use is a screw driver, justifies this?

    No, I’m not arguing with you. I can see your point that there are jobs where random ongoing drug testing doesn’t make any sense.

  213. 213
    Kay says:

    @gvg:

    marijuana testing is actually the worst, because it lingers. So they say they HAVE to assume you just finished smoking, because they don’t know! They really get screwed, those people.

  214. 214
    TenguPhule says:

    @gvg:

    It’s marijuana testing not
    drug” testing. You would have to test for scores of different things to be a complete drug test and they don’t. maybe a few other things are checked but not everything.

    Testing for methamphetamines isn’t a nothingburger.

  215. 215
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    but if that’s your conclusion about Gillibrand, it should apply to the other Democratic women senators who coordinated the effort to oust Franken with her: McCaskill, Hassan, Hirono, Murray and Harris.

    It does.

  216. 216
    randy khan says:

    @TenguPhule:

    My question here is what alternative approach would you propose? Defending people to the death often turns out badly. Similarly, I thought Franken’s immediate invocation of the ethics process made sense when there was just one claim (and said so here), but in practice it becomes untenable to say “let’s wait for the Ethics Committee” when accusations start to pile up. Is there supposed to be some Democratic Party trial to decide on the truth of an accusation that we can then invoke as the answer (which, of course, wouldn’t be accepted even if such a thing were possible)? Really – tell me how you would handle these things.

  217. 217
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    As usual, he’s asking the wrong question: why is he being drug tested at work? Does he have a job that impacts public safety (like airline pilot or bus driver)?

    Because the social attitude is “you’re some bumb of a warehouse worker/ fry cook/ waiter/ clerk and you are only working there because you are stoner and a slacker so suffer, luzer” Literally, someone on welfare is treated better than someone who works 40-60 hours a week at a low skilled job. Were is the sense in that?

  218. 218
    Another Scott says:

    @dww44:

    I think the whole episode was very telling about her ability or not to read the public mood.

    Franken’s support supposedly cratered in Minnesota when the story came out. E.g. ThinkProgress. Yes, there was variability in the polls, but when 1/3 – 1/2 think you should resign, that’s a big deal. I don’t think KG misread the politics of it at all.

    I do think it’s a black mark against the Senate that there isn’t a speedy process to address allegations like this. It’s a political body, sure, but they should have a mechanism to quickly investigate allegations (rather than the ~ 3 years it took for Packwood to work his way through the process).

    But we need to look forward now. If Gillibrand decides to run for Presiden[t], she’s going to have to battle her way through the primaries and this will just be a minor issue (I would hope!). Let’s see how she does when she’s battling against other Democrats.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

  219. 219
    Brachiator says:

    @Kay:

    Why not? We have low income housing a mile from here. Some have jobs and some do not. The people going to work are probably acutely aware of the people who aren’t. I don’t live in low income housing so I wouldn’t see that difference.

    So, you are speculating about people you know little about. What are the attitude of your friends and neighbors about drug testing? Know any people who are drug tested?

  220. 220
    Boatboy_srq says:

    @Kay: Ditto the “holding down a job != being allowed to exist.” Adding to that: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness do not automatically confer a right to gainful employment. That is a necessity of existence – but it is NOT a right: no employer owes anyone a job just because. US citizens assume it does because employment means wages which pay for life and liberty; however one could still live off-grid and produce all one’s necessities without earning a sou. The truly proper response is to ask why one works for an employer who distrusts its employees so completely that drug testing is a routine requirement: the US labor force has been so suppressed and brainwashed that jumping through the hoops necessary to retain a job is simply accepted instead of challenged as excessive repressive manipulation and racist and classist on top of that. How much “routine drug testing” is simply insurance that Commies/Hippies and Those People® are effectively unemployable?

  221. 221
    mapaghimagsik says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Our senators are really twitter bots?

  222. 222
    TenguPhule says:

    @randy khan:

    My question here is what alternative approach would you propose? Defending people to the death often turns out badly. Similarly, I thought Franken’s immediate invocation of the ethics process made sense when there was just one claim (and said so here), but in practice it becomes untenable to say “let’s wait for the Ethics Committee” when accusations start to pile up.

    The accusations that piled up were even flimsier then the first one. That’s what sticks in my craw and what pissed me off so much about the Gillibrand shitonFrankenfest. I went over it again and again that these accusers were 1) Republicans or anon 2)Their stories didn’t make sense and/or were quickly disproved upon actual investigation 3) All of the Democrat women who WORKED with him were stepping forward to DEFEND him

    If numbers are all that matter to get a conviction of guilt, the Democrats as a party are fucked. Because we just saw the GOP ratfucking machine whistle up at least seven against Franken and the lone ‘Democrat’ among his accusers was upset that he TOUCHED HER FUCKING WAIST FOR A PHOTO SHE ASKED FROM HIM and equivalated that to sexual assault.

    Really – tell me how you would handle these things.

    Stand by him until and unless actual guilt was proven. We were never going to get any credit for shiving Franken for the sake of the party and we were going to get all of the blame either way, so standing up for one of our own was worth it just to make it clear to all of the VOTERS that Democrats have spines and are loyal to those who are loyal to them.

  223. 223
    Jager says:

    @Kay: My old employer in the radio business instituted drug testing for the same reason. I made sure the dope smokers on the air/sales staff never got tested. Our 21 year old receptionist peed in the cup monthly. So did my old maid (married to the company type) business manager and I did too.

  224. 224
    TenguPhule says:

    @Another Scott:

    Let’s see how she does when she’s battling against other Democrats.

    We’ve already seen that.

    Let’s see how she does when her turn in the barrel comes up. Because I suspect she will find few friends and lots of people prepared to piss on her.

  225. 225
    gvg says:

    @Mandalay: It’s not a fabrication. Stories about being drug tested at Home Depot are so common around here, I assumed it was true everywhere and anyone asking for proof surprised me. I am looking around and surprise, the fact that I live in Florida is probably relevant. Apparently my state offers discounts of workers comp if an employer does “voluntary” drug testing. Also as an at will state, private employers can demand you take a test any time they feel like it. So it could even be a specific manager who thinks drugs are horrible. I guess it could be different in every single state.
    Also kind of funny sad that my googling this found a lot of MJ smokers who believe in things like detox pills and other quackery.

  226. 226
    tobie says:

    @Betty Cracker: The “unnamed Congressional staffer” ended up not being a staffer at all when Al Franken supposedly said to her that he could do what he wanted. This was just one of the many oddities about the public tarring and feathering of Franken. Why is Gillibrand so above reproach for you? She rushed to judgment, and there’s good reason to believe she did so because she thought it would play well in the public. She may be right about that. We’ll see. But for those of us who have been following her career for some time and have questions about her ideological commitments, this didn’t sit right at all.

  227. 227
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Kay:

    Have you thought about bypassing the fairness/unfairness debate and just explaining it from an economics angle? Ignoring all ethical concerns about privacy for a minute, it is wasteful to force welfare recipients to be drug tested because it has repeatedly been shown that the cost of drug testing far exceeds the savings realized from kicking a few positive results out of the system. But private businesses have different economic priorities, because they actually risk financial losses if, for example, employees show up to work high and damage expensive equipment or ruin valuable supplies, to say nothing of potential liability if they injure other employees well misusing company equipment

  228. 228
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @gvg: and why would anyone, especially one of our resident purity ponies, be so emotionally invested in Home Depot?

  229. 229
    gvg says:

    Testing for methamphetamines isn’t a nothingburger.

    @TenguPhule: that’s a legitimate thing to test for if needed. the mental effects are bad. However most of what I have heard of seems to get marijuana users which is mostly just trivial to most jobs.

  230. 230
    Citizen Alan says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    The saddest thing about that is that the person you described would never in a million years consider the alternative. Maybe instead of forcing everyone to be drug tested so that everyone is equally degraded, he should try to start a union at his place of business that could negotiate for worker rights that ensure no one is degraded.

    Also, be sure to point out to him that according to a unanimous Supreme Court decision, it is unconstitutional to require people running for public office to take drug tests.

  231. 231
    gvg says:

    I suspect the insurance companies pushing drug testing is about avoiding losing lawsuits. It comes out of the fact that too large a per cent of the population/jury pool don’t understand statistics and things like errors and might stick it too employers/insurance companies if they didn’t take all reasonable precautions to prevent some accident that happened.
    I would be a lot safer if drug policies made more sense because not all drugs have the same dangers or effects and all the pursuing the easy to find marijuana smokers masks the serious problems and wastes resources. by safer I mean all the other drivers on the road and employees of all the places I go could be screened better and all the safe employees could avoid being hassled if testing was smarter and less like bullying.

  232. 232
    TenguPhule says:

    @gvg:

    However most of what I have heard of seems to get marijuana users which is mostly just trivial to most jobs.

    And I am firmly in the camp that it shouldn’t be one of the things tested for.

  233. 233
    WaterGirl says:

    @Miss Bianca: I think that’s where the FU part comes in. It’s happens on a whim.

  234. 234
    Betty Cracker says:

    @tobie: I don’t consider Gillibrand above reproach! It’s reasonable, IMO, to conclude she rushed to judgment and that the coordinated effort of half a dozen female senators, including Gillibrand, was ill-advised. I also think it’s reasonable to think she (and they) did the right thing and acted out of personal conviction and concern for the party.

    Personally, I’m ambivalent about the whole Franken affair, as I’ve said. But the two-minutes hate against Gillibrand (and only Gillibrand) that pops up around here from time to time gives me Hillary Clinton flashbacks, tbh. No, she’s not perfect. Yes, she’s ambitious. Women are allowed to be, just as men are.

  235. 235
    Kay says:

    @Citizen Alan:

    Thanks. Betty suggested that too and if it comes up again I’ll try it.

    It was sort of shocking to get a good argument- one I couldn’t counter immediately. It never occurred to me that people who resent getting tested for drugs at work would make this comparison to welfare, but that person was, and because I hear about drug tests a lot here (manufacturing) I knew he WAS getting tested. I think I said “good point” and dropped it :)

  236. 236
    Ruckus says:

    @cmorenc:
    No matter what words you use talking about drumpf, you are going to denigrate someone/something. He’s that fucked up.
    He’s so fucked up that he makes having a sebaceous cyst removed from your genitals seem like a fun time.

  237. 237
    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    But in the end, most of the time, even if drug use affects job performance, people and the workplace adjust.

    Does not apply to any business involving vehicles, large operating machinery, explosives or combustible materials, dealing with children….etc.

    Actually, it applies here as well, even if drug testing is reasonable.

    In the real world, people do stupid shit and skate by.

  238. 238
    Antid Oto says:

    @Salvatore Napoli: It is a Yellow-rumped Warbler.

  239. 239
    Antid Oto says:

    @JPL: The largest hawks you might be dealing with — red-tailed hawks — weigh an average of 2.5 pounds (a maximum of around 3.5 pounds) and are looking for prey the size of gophers or squirrels at most. Your 6-pound dog weighs more than they do and should be safe. Please do not shoot at it.

  240. 240
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    But the two-minutes hate against Gillibrand (and only Gillibrand) that pops up around here from time to time gives me Hillary Clinton flashbacks, tbh.

    Flip the sexes around and see if you see it differently.

    If a male Democrat backstabbed a female Democrat rival in a similar fashion, would you still feel the same way?

  241. 241
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Antid Oto: I think you’re correct — thanks!

  242. 242
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: Again, I don’t accept your framing as the gospel truth, so your analogies fall flat with me. You’ve said you apply the same standard to the other women in the senate who worked with Gillibrand to oust Franken (backstabbing careerists all, I guess), so at least you’re consistent. The part I find reminiscent of irrational Hillary-hate is the fixation on Gillibrand, the certainty that her motives must be cynical and impure, etc., while everyone else gets a pass. Seems like that doesn’t apply to you, per your comment at #215.

  243. 243
    Jeff Boatright says:

    @Elizabelle: See, now, you’re going to upset some people by calling out Gillibrand like that.

    And such language, Elizabelle!

  244. 244
    catbirdman says:

    @Antid Oto: Correct — Yellow-rumped.

  245. 245
    SWMBO says:

    @JPL: Play Ted Nugent.

  246. 246
    SWMBO says:

    @TenguPhule: I see her posts on facebook and at least 10% of the comments are about “we won’t forget Franken and your part in this”. Lots of don’t run for President if you are for mob rule over due process. She’s getting hit consistently with this.

  247. 247
    SWMBO says:

    @Elizabelle: You do not call for mob justice over due process. EVERY ONE of the metoo people now know that even their champion calls for mob rule over due process. Long term Gillibrand did more harm to their cause than anything Donald Trump, Roy Moore or Steve Wynn because they know that mob rule will be used against them. They can forget about due process for their cause. And that’s why Gillibrand will be hurt by this more than the men accused. She didn’t want due process and consequences for Franken or any other man.

  248. 248
    Albatrossity says:

    @Betty Cracker: Yep, Yellow-rumped (Myrtle) Warbler. But I envy you living in a place where a Sandhill Crane flyover is possible at any time!

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