Great that very serious people like Jon Rauch and Ben Wittes are seeing the light, but this is something we unserious partisans figured out 15 or 20 years ago:
We have both spent our professional careers strenuously avoiding partisanship in our writing and thinking. We have both done work that is, in different ways, ideologically eclectic, and that has—over a long period of time—cast us as not merely nonpartisans but antipartisans. Temperamentally, we agree with the late Christopher Hitchens: Partisanship makes you stupid. We are the kind of voters who political scientists say barely exist—true independents who scour candidates’ records in order to base our votes on individual merit, not party brand.
[….]We’re suggesting that in today’s situation, people should vote a straight Democratic ticket even if they are not partisan, and despite their policy views. They should vote against Republicans in a spirit that is, if you will, prepartisan and prepolitical. Their attitude should be: The rule of law is a threshold value in American politics, and a party that endangers this value disqualifies itself, period. In other words, under certain peculiar and deeply regrettable circumstances, sophisticated, independent-minded voters need to act as if they were dumb-ass partisans.
I guess the proper attitude is “welcome aboard” but how was all of this not obvious years ago? Even if you gloss over the Gingrich bullshit in the 90s, the Bush tax cuts, the lead-up to the Iraq War….how could you not see this when McCain chose Palin as his running mate?
As you know, I’m fueled creatively by my massive hatred of Christopher Hitchens. But leaving aside the misogyny, the slurred speech, the Oxbridge mumbling…the fucker was always wrong. When you’ve managed to be a commie and a neocon in one lifetime, well…..
Baud
Don’t they realize how neoliberal we are?
Peale
Nope. Doing it wrong. We all know the true path to conversion lies by passing to the Greens. Like Ariana Huffington becoming an independent so that she could protest Al Gore’s candidacy for not being liberal enough.
bystander
Agree about Hitchens. I’m surprised by Wittes not realizing that Rula Law gave up her repub membership many years ago.
Baud
I didn’t click over. Did they vote for Hillary, the only qualified person in the race?
Gin & Tonic
I hate to break the news to you, but Christopher Hitchens is dead.
bystander
I read earlier that Adam Schiff gave people a heads up to read Lawfare today. Was this article the reason?
If I have to feel as if I’m back in law school, I’d rather be lectured by Ari Melber.
zhena gogolia
@bystander:
Isn’t she Rula Lenska’s sister?
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: sound like Johnson voters to me.
Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady)
@bystander: This article was the reason. Results of a FOIA request to the FBI for internal communications by management about Comey firing. The point was to show Trump and Sarah HS lies about the FBI being in shambles and grateful Trump fired Comey.
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
I think he knows. Example:
Past tense, G&T, past tense.
Corner Stone
@bystander:
I think that may have been Ben Wittes himself. And no, he posted some nothing BS on Lawfare based on FOIA that said FBI agents really actually loved James Comey.
bbleh
Concur. Good for them. As the man said, whadda they want, a cookie?
But here’s the thing: they’re lying. They knew all this years ago. They knew it about Gingrich, they knew it about Bush and Iraq, etc. They knew exactly what they were enabling, and they had elaborate justifications for doing it. But they knew.
To portray themselves now as finally seeing the light, as finally, regretfully, but NOT INCONSISTENTLY OH NO NEVER THAT, endorsing Democrats qua Democrats, is basically just another shuck and jive.
They’re rats deserting a sinking ship. That’s all. And they’ve got less integrity.
NotMax
Even when, during the 90s, he referred to a certain R. Limbaugh as (and I quote) “a fat fuck?”
Gin & Tonic
@SiubhanDuinne: I’m just suggesting that being fueled creatively by massive hatred of a dead man is kind of nihilistic.
Corner Stone
@Baud: I will neoliberal the shit outta you if you keep trying this BS on.
eemom
Thank you. I read this piece of sniveling, self-righteous, self congratulatory, self pitying shit earlier and almost threw up.
More generally, I am SOOOO fucking sick of all these neo-“reasonable” fuckwads, e.g., Sullivan, Frum, Rubin — who for years cheerleaded every racist, plutocratic, ignorance-championing, war mongering move of the republican party that GOT us to trump — and their nouveau, pious-ass horror at what they wrought.
Last but not least, I am MOST sick of all of folks on the left who fawn on such fuckwads.
TriassicSands
But, but…I can’t vote for Democrats,’cuz the preznit says they’re traitors for not applauding him during his SOTU speech. What could be worse? I mean how can I vote for someone who commits treason by not clapping for the Reality-Show-Host-in-Chief?
Corner Stone
No cover for cowards.
Adam L Silverman
@bystander: Most likely this:
https://www.lawfareblog.com/i-hope-instance-fake-news-fbi-messages-show-bureaus-real-reaction-trump-firing-james-comey
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: Such poor judgement does not speak well of having a nonpartisan outlook.
Baud
@Corner Stone:
You’ll lower my trade barriers?
Sounds kinky.
Baud
Sounds like, unlike Hillary, Trump is too cowardly to speak to the FBI.
MomSense
@eemom:
I’m tolerating them temporarily until we are rid of this whole trump maladministration but there is no way I will ever forget or forgive the decades of support for the GOP.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: I don’t actually know, but that’s what these words remind me of.
Mnemosyne
@TriassicSands:
I prefer to refer to him as the “Game Show Host.”
Because that’s what “The Apprentice” was. A game show.
Corner Stone
@Baud: Oh, I’ll lower them alright. Then when you’ve got your trade barriers around your ankles I will proceed to neocon you six ways to Sunday.
Fair Economist
@Baud:
Neoliberals do it in budget restraints.
Corner Stone
@MomSense: They are not allies. None of them are.
NotMax
@Baud
It involves a wetsuit, an Andrew Sullivan mask and a solar-powered cattle prod.
Or so I’ve heard.
;)
Baud
@Corner Stone:
Tell me you’ll impose countervailing duties in response to my dumping…that would be hot.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: it kind of sounds like they’re publicly encouraging people to vote for us, but what do I know.
MattF
It may sound trivial, but I got permanently disgusted with Hitchens when he went after the Dixie Chicks over the Iraq war. Hitchens revealed his pettiness, ignorance, lack of taste, and misogyny there, all at once. Not a pretty picture.
TenguPhule
@eemom:
fuck em.
eemom
Then there’s the “conducted themselves with integrity” dick-suck to McCain, Flake, Corker, etc. who voted to give Dump his tax “victory.”
Have I mentioned how much I hate these pretentious, self-aggrandizing sacks of shit?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Corner Stone: Oh, that is kinky. Kink.com might be interested.
Adam L Silverman
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
That ship has long since sailed. Their endorsements now are too little, too late and worth nothing.
Their audience drank the kool aid and now they come to us for respite.
Fuck em.
JR
reads like a high school student who just discovered Nietzsche
?BillinGlendaleCA
The news alert on my PC tells me that Trump’s lawyers have told him not to do an interview with Mueller.
TenguPhule
@Adam L Silverman:
Leading indicators, Am I right?
RobertDSC-iPhone 6
@NotMax:
LOL
TenguPhule
@JR:
FTFY.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: What they are doing is whistling past the fucking graveyard. Checking the barn doors after the horse is gone. Trying to mask their ignorance and cowardice for the last two decades +.
If we are to believe they can move one vote outside of their own* then we deserve the shellacking we will get in Nov 2018.
ETA *any proof they actually moved their own vote to HRC and not just Not Trump?
JR
@Mnemosyne: game show implies some kind of fairness and/or impartiality
MattF
@Adam L Silverman: Bartlett has a good point. I can easily picture Trump deciding that the way to fix things is with ‘small’ nuclear attack on NK. What could go wrong?
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
If they are sincere about protecting the Republic, I don’t think they’ll be derailed by the righteous anger of a anonymous blog commenters.
TenguPhule
@Corner Stone:
But they may yet prove useful in soaking up enemy fire.
Mnemosyne
@JR:
You have a much higher opinion of game shows than I do.
Corner Stone
“Hmmm, let me scour his record. Does he have an R behind his name? Scouring complete! Pull that lever!”
cokane
your hatred of hitchens is weirdly outsized. i think people forget how much progress has actually been made in the realm of having a secular politics. not just in the US but it has grown in much of the world. In a weird irony, the Trump takeover of the Republican party is partly proof of this. But despite that victory, secularism has been a positive force, such as the rapid and widespread acceptance of gay rights.
I’m not saying hitchens is the chief architect of that, but man, he was definitely in the vanguard.
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: what’s that got to do with anything? I’m arguing with somebody who says that a person encouraging people to support your side very publicly is not an ally. I think it does make them allies.
Amaranthine RBG
Hitches was right about, among other things, torture, picnics, and Orwell.
Ruckus
In the past we looked at policies and saw we liked democratic and hated republican. We reviewed what their words actually meant, not the lies out of their mouths. In their own words Jon and Ben said they liked the republican policies. But they never took the them as liars, even given all the evidence. They at the very least believed the lies they were told. Now it’s just that the liars are so bad at it that it’s impossible to not see them as liars. They still like the policies that republicans say aspire to. Or at least used to say 2 yrs ago. When drumpf is gone, they will be back being republicans. They don’t dislike republican policies, they dislike drumpf. Is it because he’s so obvious? Is it because he’s so horrible? Is it because to not speak out brands them as drumpf supporters while he’s so obviously horrible?
We can’t turn them away, we need their numbers. We can remember that they were supporters of the republican desire to destroy the concept of the US before drumpf and that once mr obviously horrible asshole is gone they will once again join the rest of the republican party in fucking us over, because that’s what they truly believe.
bystander
@zhena gogolia: Yes.
@Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): Thanks. I will give it a read. Sending best thoughts to Mr. DAW and you!
How is it that Wittes’ name is on 80% of the articles on Lawfare? Is he acting out some trauma from law review?
oldgold
This is an all hands on deck moment.
As such, I welcome Frum, Rubin and others of their ilk to the Resistance.
Mnemosyne
@cokane:
Well, right up until Hitchens decided that all Muslims must die, that is. Deciding that genocide on the basis of religion is A-OK damaged his “secular” credentials more than you seem to realize.
Jeffro
The interesting dynamic is that at this point the GOP base is pretty firmly dedicated to Trumpism in all of its reflexive stupidity and hatred. GOP leaders, even if they wanted to suddenly take up the rule of law, or balance budgets or just generally supporting American values, will find themselves primaried by lunatics who can’t win general elections.
Adam L Silverman
@JR: “One must go under to go over”. — Thus Spoke Zarathustra.
Adam L Silverman
@TenguPhule: Perhaps.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@cokane: Politics has grown less secular over the past 30 years worldwide.
Jeffro
@oldgold: seconded . Anything we peel away from the Republicans helps Democrats and by extension the country
Thoughtful David
@JR:
Yeah, this struck me as particularly self-deceptive or maybe un-self-aware. And arrogant at the same time.
Baud
@Major Major Major Major:
I think people are conflating WWII type allies and BFF type allies.
eemom
Who, exactly, do folks think is/are going to be persuaded to vote Democratic by the bloated prose of these two jerk offs?
The Virginia Voter who they admittedly stole this genius meme from is who we should be talking about.
Jeffro
@?BillinGlendaleCA: truly, the actions of an innocent man
Major Major Major Major
@Baud: I agree. I don’t think it’s that hard really.
John Revolta
So voting exclusively for the Non-Leopards Eating People’s Faces Party= “acting like a dumb-ass partisan”? Funny way to phrase it.
I’d say that for the last 2 or 3 decades, the ONLY WAY you could vote for a Republican is if you WERE, IN FACT a dumb-ass partisan.
bystander
@Adam L Silverman: Just saw this. You and DAW are in agreement. Thanks.
Steve in the ATL
@Gin & Tonic:
So it’s not ok that I wake up every morning hating Henry VI for causing the War of the Roses?
Patricia Kayden
@bbleh: Couldn’t the same be said of Jennifer Rubin, Bill Kristol, George Will, Tom Nichols and David Frum? Ditto to a lesser degree Joe Scarborough.
They’re Never Trump but would probably be all in with a President Jeb Bush or President Cruz. They’re just embarrassed by Trump’s crassness and lack of filter.
Corner Stone
Let’s check in with our other ally Evan McMuffin, shall we? We can be informed that equal rights activists are just as nutty, and a little bit slutty, as white nationalist nazis.
So much ethical consistency!
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Steve in the ATL:
Let it go, Steve.
Fair Economist
@Major Major Major Major:
Two different meaning of “ally” here:
“People friendly to you with many shared goals and values” = they’re not allies.
“People committed to fighting on the same side in a conflict” = they are allies.
To distinguish I’d call them “allies” but not “close allies” or “long-term allies” or “reliable allies”.
NotMax
@Adam L. Silverman
“No soap, radio.” – Anonymous
MP
@TenguPhule: As Ben Graham said, over the longer term, the market is a weighing machine. Unlike some Rear Admiral who will go unnamed.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: I don’t recall considering him an ally.
raven
Mac Rebennack speaks
oldgold
@eemom:
Some independents.
MattF
@Patricia Kayden: Um, not George Fucking Will. I draw the line there.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: But you would if he had added his byline to the Wittes piece.
Mnemosyne
@Steve in the ATL:
Never ask an Irishman what he thinks of Oliver Cromwell.
Trust me on this.
danielx
@Gin & Tonic:
And let us piously hope he remains that way.
MisterForkbeard
Somewhat on-topic: Did anyone see that the PA Republican party, while angered about the Supreme Court’s refusal to take up and block the redistricting order… has now moved to impeach the state judges that ruled against them??
The argument is literally “these five judges made a ruling that the state republicans say is unconstitutional, therefore we’re going to impeach them.”
Law & Order indeed.
Ruckus
@John Revolta:
Exactly.
If you voted reflexively you were and are a partisan.
You have to actually know what’s going on, whose lying the most and worst. Who’s promising nirvana while serving bullshit ala bullshit. (That’s like ala mode but with an additional toping of bullshit, aka the republican party)
Baud
@Major Major Major Major: We’ve been burned by false friends before.
chris
@Adam L Silverman:
Even the AIs and neural networks on Wall St. don’t like him.
Fair Economist
@Corner Stone:
Not in agreement with him on a lot of issues. OTOH, if he and the other #NeverTrumpers were responsible for getting 1 person in 70 to flip in the Alabama special election he (and similar people) are one of the critical reasons Doug Jones is sitting in the Senate and we have a plausible path to Senate control in 2019. So, perhaps a more conciliatory approach to our differences with Mr. McMullin is called for?
P.S. “McMuffin”? Zinger or fortuitous typo?
Adam L Silverman
@MattF: The bigger issue is that personnel is policy. And for this administration that is even more true since there’s precious little actual articulated policy and what is articulate isn’t necessarily coherent or coordinated.
Do any of the President’s economics staffers/advisors instill anyone with any amount of confidence that if we are on the edge not of a necessary correction or even a minor slowdown, but a major disruption that they wouldn’t make it worse. The head of the Council of Economic Advisors is Kevin “Dow 36,000” Hassett. You’ve got Cohn and Mnuchin. Steven Moore and Peter Navarro. And apparently the guy he wants to eventually replace Cohn with Larry Kudlow. And, of course, his director of policy is Stephen Miller who knows nothing about economics. Or anything else for that matter.
Do you have any confidence that any of these folks aren’t going to wind up making things worse
thif the economy goes south?Corner Stone
@bbleh:
But they aren’t seeing the light. They are just saying how embarrassed they are with Trump. They are not pushing Democratic policies or ideals. Just saying as an emergency stopgap they want to cover their own asses.
danielx
@NotMax:
Even a stopped clock, etc. Besides, a person with his or her head in a bag could see that Limbaugh is indeed a fat fuck.
OGLiberal
The Bill Kristol’s of the world used the fear and racism of the Trump base to get their war on. Now they are terrified of those same people. I’m not going to turn them away but would be nice to see the acknowledge that – not that they were wrong about Iraq, etc…they will never admit that…they still think they are right – but that their’s was a minority opinion and they took advantage of chickenshit racists and a media who thinks those chickenshit racists are the only real Murkans to make that opinion to be the majority one for just long enough to fuck all shit up. Yeah, the Trump base scares the shit out of you now when they march in C’ville but you loved them when they wore purple band-aids at the convention.
And while I agree with much of what Bill Kristol says today about Trump, he LOVED Sarah Palin.
JR
@cokane: Well, to use an increasingly relevant historical reference, the Girondins were right about slavery, suffrage, and feminism, but they were still useless warmongering fuckheads.
patroclus
Yes, they were Republicans who claimed they were non-partisan and yes, they’re about 25 (or more) years late in waking up to the Republican nihilistic reality, but I consider it good news that they’ve finally joined us and will be voting Democratic this year. The article was well written and made good points and they should be complimented for it; not criticized. Norm Ornstein saw the light about a decade or so ago; Frum, Rubin, Kristol and others within the last year – it’s all to the good and helps signal the coming blue wave. I don’t agree with the prevailing churlishness.
But, uh, Christopher Hitchens sucks.
Thoughtful David
@Major Major Major Major:
Maybe, but only temporarily. Remember, the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. Maybe they’ll be useful for a while, but don’t trust them any farther than you can throw the Empire State Building.
schrodingers_cat
@MattF: Many will nod their head to anything as long as it is said in a British accent.
bystander
Re: the symbolism of Melania’s wardrobe choices
Since much (?) was made of Melania’s all white suit at the SOTU evoking the suffrage movement, I’m wondering about what we should make of this.
Steve in the ATL
@Mnemosyne: I work with a man from Belfast who says he’s from Ireland. We have much to learn from these people.
MattF
@chris: I’m sure it’s true that the stock market is run these days by AIs and neural nets. And I’ll bet that they’ve discovered clever ways of comparing notes on current events.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: vocally encouraging somebody to vote a democratic straight party ticket is very different from vocally encouraging somebody to vote for an independent candidate for president, yes. Can you not see how this is different?
danielx
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Very prudent, since he can no more restrain his mouth than he can fly.
efgoldman
@Gin & Tonic:
No you don’t, not one damned bit.
Major Major Major Major
Let’s check in with our “ally” Stalin. I hear he has nasty things to say about America.
danielx
@Patricia Kayden:
Leave us not forget David Brooks in that roll call.
Ruckus
@Steve in the ATL:
NotMax
@danielx.
Remember it because it was broadcast on C-SPAN, which doesn’t bleep.
cokane
@Mnemosyne: that would be a dangerous credential if it was real. but it’s not what he said. it’s telling that the first argument out of the gate is an outright fabrication
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: A vote for anyone but HRC this last election was a vote for Trump. We are now facing people who refused to see that truth when it mattered. Now we’re supposed to do what, exactly? Think they can help us? I doubt seriously they, themselves, even voted for HRC or D’s in 2016. GWB admittedly didn’t, and that’s after Trump called GWB himself out and humiliated his brother Jeb!
I am not much on giving someone with a lifetime of hatred, ignorance, IGMFY, and racism much sense of doubt now that they are scared and embarrassed their lifetime policies are coming to fruition.
SFAW
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
Let’s hope the Liar-in-Chief reverts to his usual “You’re not the boss of me!!!!”
cokane
@?BillinGlendaleCA: i said as much in my post. hitchens is also read, worldwide.
Fair Economist
@Thoughtful David:
You don’t have to trust them. They actually do have to trust us. If the alliance is successful, we will be the ones in power.
Adam L Silverman
@MisterForkbeard: These guys are going to wind up in contempt of court. The State Supreme Court isn’t going to play around on this stuff. They’ll be enjoying the hospitality at the State Prison in Camp Hill – just outside of Harrisburg.
But it does show just how far the rot and insanity have gone.
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist: and then we can stop paying attention to a damn thing they say.
ETA I should note that we don’t actually need to pay attention now either, since they’re being cheerleaders
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: Nobody tolerated Stalin. We wanted to kill his ass right as the war was finishing. I think the fact that we decided not to, for reasons, is mildly instructive here.
I, for one, would enjoy never hearing another word from NeverTrumpers. They have no constituency and are just cowards.
Fair Economist
@danielx:
No, he doesn’t belong in that list, because he is STILL bothsidering against us – which really says something about him, and not a good thing.
Ruckus
@Adam L Silverman:
I’d say worse not worth but otherwise…..
To actually answer your question even though not directed at me, NO.
I expect nothing good from any of them. Not in word or deed. OK except for all of them to have a simultaneous heart explosion. That’s not bad is it, wanting their own bodies to give up on them?
SiubhanDuinne
@Gin & Tonic:
Nihilistic, may be, but hardly unusual. And not just Hitchins. How many people here are fueled by massive loathing of Ronald Reagan (d. 2004) or Richard Nixon (d. 1994) or Ayn Rand (d. 1982)?
?BillinGlendaleCA
@cokane: Ah, I was disagreeing with your premise about secular politics. We have more religion in politics than we had 30 years ago, worldwide.
Adam L Silverman
@Fair Economist: McMuffin is what the President calls him.
Villago Delenda Est
When the tumbrel manifests are filled out, the overpaid, over-pampered dullards who just figured out what we figured out back in the fuckin’ 90’s will not get passes for their tardiness.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone:
So you’re saying that everybody tolerated Stalin until the war was wrapping up.
Villago Delenda Est
@SiubhanDuinne: /raises hand
Thoughtful David
@patroclus:
I’m pretty sure that they have not seen the light. I don’t know about the others but the reason Jenghazi Rubin is anti-Trump is pretty clearly only because she’s Jewish and she’s seen Trump surround himself with Nazis. That’s it. If it were Ted Cruz in there she would be 110% all-in. And still writing thrice-weekly columns about Benghazi and Her Emails, and saying that the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim.
MattF
@Fair Economist: I agree. There’s no need to bother with spelling out all the fallacies in Brooks’ arguments– but they’re the same as always– they certainly haven’t gone away.
efgoldman
@JR:
Look up “Quiz show scandals”
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Major Major Major Major: I think they tolerated Stalin, no one really trusted him.
cain
@Fair Economist:
This fucker hates Democrats like nobodys business while trying to look like he’s some kind of reasonable conervative that public radio likes to highlight. He’s not a reasonable anything. He’s extremely ideological.
Adam L Silverman
@bystander: She doesn’t understand that her arms go in the coat sleeves.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Adam L Silverman:
Trump’s probably already thinking of breakfast.
efgoldman
@cokane:
Not mutually exclusive with being a raging asshole
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: A fellow Yorkist, I see.
cokane
@?BillinGlendaleCA: sorry, i misread you then.
there’s no way this is true! gay marriage for one thing wasn’t legal *anywhere* that long ago, and we had freaking sodomy laws. maybe in the middle east this is true, but europe? latin america? and yes, even the US. i think people have forgotten how staunchly (socially) conservative our politics was not too long ago. we had big name DEMOCRATS talking about censoring hip hop, tv, etc. Hillary saying she wasn’t just going to be a typical housewife was like a major scandal. All this is due to the shrinking power of religion to dominate politics and culture.
MattF
@Thoughtful David: I’ll allow that’s where she started– and she still avoids any mention of Hillary. But I think Rubin’s gone well beyond that.
efgoldman
@Major Major Major Major:
Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t watch our backs
Adam L Silverman
@chris: @MattF:
cokane
@efgoldman: sure, but it is mutually exclusive from him being hate-worthy. at least imo
Major Major Major Major
@cokane: the democrats have certainly gotten more secular but I think the American evangelicals have actually gotten worse. Fundamentalism seems to be on the rise pretty much wherever it’s found right now.
@efgoldman: nobody’s saying it makes them trustworthy, nice, or good. Again, the applicable analogy is literally Stalin.
Ohio Mom
@bystander: Melania and Donald went in different directions after landing in Cincinnati: he to the machine tool company in the northeast suburbs, she to Children’s Hospital in the city proper.
Maybe she wanted a skirt that was waterproof and could be wiped clean easily in case something messy happened while with the kiddies, hence the brown leather skirt? And maybe she thought the egg yolk yellow sweater was a cheerful color for visiting the sick?
I will welcome other interpretations.
Doug!
@eemom:
I cut Wittes a tiny bit of slack today because I like the Lawfare stuff from Kerr and Goldsmith so much. I’m not a lawyer and most writing about the Russia probe falls into one of these categories: (1) stuff I can’t understand, e.g. everything Wittes himself writes, (2) LOL FISA, e.g. Greenwald, or (3) everyone’s going to jail for life, e.g. Lawrence Tribe. But Goldsmith and Kerr make sense to me, even though I probably don’t agree with their politics.
MattF
@Major Major Major Major: I think the current crop of evangelicals are mostly plain old fascists.
cokane
@Major Major Major Major: i dunno, i think their hypocrisy in full throatedly endorsing trump kind of shows how religious they actually are. it’s clearly more a tribal and sometime racial loyalty than it is an allegiance to some cosmic power.
Omnes Omnibus
@Corner Stone: Accept their votes, but cede no policy decisions to them.
Adam L Silverman
@Ruckus: Talk about a Freudian slip. I fixed it. Thanks.
Miss Bianca
Who are these bullshit artists? I can’t believe these fucking people exist. If they didn’t exist, Doug! would have had to invent them. Fucking preening “independents” who approvingly quote the late not-great Christopher Hitchens as some shining example of “non=partisanship”? Jesus Chicken-Fried Christ. They’re literally saying, “we have, sadly and reluctantly, come to the conclusion as our country burns to the ground that maybe, just maybe, we should stop pretending that it’s really “independent” to claim that there’s no difference between arsonists and those neo-liberal fire fighter guys”?
Yeah, assholes, whatever. Thanks for coming to the station and bringing cookies, now sit down over there and shut up while we put out the goddamned fire.
Jager
@Mnemosyne: If we’re going to have Game Show Hosts as presidents, it’s really too bad Alex Trebeck is Canadian
B.B.A.
@cokane: I still can’t get over how a split-section shot of Janet Jackson’s pierced nipple was a national scandal in my lifetime.
Major Major Major Major
@MattF: this is an example of how they’ve gotten worse.
@cokane: I don’t think hypocrisy and a thirst for power at any cost makes them less evangelical—if anything, they’re doing it because they know their hand is so weak now. (It’s an example of them getting worse in other words)
B.B.A.
@Jager: Chris Hardwick is tanned, rested and ready.
Adam L Silverman
@Doug!: 4) The exceedingly perspicacious, eminently readable, and always on point stuff written by some guy named Silverman.
Ohio Mom
@Adam L Silverman: Maybe her clothes are so narrowly cut that it would be too tight a fit if she put her arms in the coat sleeves?
It didn’t break out of the very low 30s today. Not coat-slung-rakishly-over-your-shoulders weather for most of us.
efgoldman
@MisterForkbeard:
Been tried in a few RWNJ states, notably Kansas, over the decades.
What HAS worked, in CA and elsewhere, is voting judges out of office(*) because of adverse rulings.
(*)Professor Pierce, as usual, is right:
randy khan
@Amaranthine RBG:
Considering the environment, he certainly deserves credit for his position on torture. He was wrong about an awful lot, but he absolutely was right about that.
And the man could write, and he couldn’t not write, all the way to the end. (To pick a relevant comparison, he wrote much better than Sullivan writes.)
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: too many puns though.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@cokane: Religion basically stayed out of politics until the late 70’s, they’ve played a much greater role since then even with losing some issues.
p.a.
@Baud: @bystander: @Adam L Silverman:
Hmmm… she wore white at SOTU to invoke the suffragette movement, did she? Or as a slap at blackclad #MeToo, perhaps. Which do you think more likely?
cokane
@Major Major Major Major: because they know their hand is so weak now.
ya, hence my original point
randy khan
@Fair Economist:
How about “allies,” but not “friends”?
patroclus
@Jager: No way. Not after the way he treated Sean Connery for innocently selecting Swords for $500.
cokane
@?BillinGlendaleCA: No way! religion was used as a justification for slavery. and a justification for abolition. religious identity dominated America’s conception of itself during the Cold War. There’s a reason it took almost 200 years to have a non-protestant president! This is just not an accurate reading of history.
schrodingers_cat
These are allies of convenience and let’s treat them as such. As in their votes are welcome but they don’t get to set the agenda.
Major Major Major Major
@cokane: no because I don’t think you can say their acting like any other threatened animal makes them any less fundie than they were when they had more power.
ETA also Mike fucking Pence is VP so it’s working
Omnes Omnibus
@p.a.: Yellow is the color of toxic warning signs. Just saying.
Adam L Silverman
@p.a.: I honestly have no idea.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major:
Let’s hear how, thanks.
Omnes Omnibus
@schrodingers_cat: I just said that.
Doug!
@Adam L Silverman:
Ha! You don’t write about legal stuff though.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
I have absolute, perfect confidence that they can and will make it much, much worse. Maybe not with the same methods as Hoover, but just as
misguidedfucking stupidNot true. He knows you and I are mud people or something.
Omnes Omnibus
@randy khan: Hitler was good to his dogs. And “nice” to his niece.
GregB
When Trump shit-canned Comey, Huckabee referred to Comey as committing atrocities.
Jeffro
Michael Gerson lowers the boom in the WaPo tomorrow…(online now)…wow
Zinsky
Right Place, Wrong Time by Dr. John – Doug!
Great post. Yes, I think the Republican Party as it exists today, needs to be torn out, root and branch, and consigned to permanent minority status. By conspiring with foreign operatives, raping the middle class with wealth-biased, unnecessary tax cuts and trampling on the civil rights of millions through capricious immigration laws, the GOP has disqualified itself from being allowed to be anywhere near the levers of power.
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: nah, I’m done and will not be having this conversation with you again because it’s boring and pointless
?BillinGlendaleCA
@cokane: No, you’re wrong about this. I watched it. Yes, religion has been a part of American life, but not so overtly partisan. That was the big change that happened in the late 70’s
Jager
@Major Major Major Major: That’s about right, late ’44 they began to realize Uncle Joe was a fucking two faced liar as the dominoes started to fall in Poland and Yugoslavia. Churchill and FDR had already given up the easy stuff like Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary. Stalin wouldn’t dial the communists back in Greece like he did in France. Uncle Joe even told told Churchill that he’d like to over run Switzerland during their Moscow meetings in late ’44, that was when Churchill stopped thinking Stalin was a straight shooter.
randy khan
@MisterForkbeard:
The report I just found says that it’s some back-bencher who’s trolling for support. We’ll see if they’re crazy enough to do anything about it, although if it’s a straight party line vote, they can. (By the way, speaking of awful gerrymanders, a state that elects a Democratic governor somehow has a 2/3 majority for the other party in the state senate and nearly 60% of the lower house?. Wow.)
Omnes Omnibus
@Zinsky:
The title sent me straight to listening.
Ohio Mom
@Omnes Omnibus: Yes, that is the shade of yellow she was wearing, the same yellow of traffic warning signs.
WaterGirl
Too little, too late? Sure, maybe, probably. But they appear to be allies going forward. They are late to the party and we sure as hell don’t have to let them lead, but in my opinion it is foolish to push them away.
All this hate and disdain being expressed here in response to this article by JONATHAN RAUCH AND BENJAMIN WITTES feels similar to the purity people or purity people that are often derided with disgust and disdain here on Balloon Juice.
I am guessing that this WILL have an impact on the democrats I know that listen to NPR and still believe in “both sides do it”. I say take our allies where we find them, and if/when they are no longer allies down the road, then at least (hopefully) the alliance has served a purpose in the current fight.
Maybe I’m able to see it this way because I rarely read Lawfare and I don’t have any opinion on these guys coming into this. A reasonable response would be “it took you fucking long enough, what were you thinking???” As it is, the overall response on BJ tonight feels a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I haven’t read the whole article yet, but I’m guessing that probably spelled out the things that were the last straw for them. Perhaps those things would be useful points for us to discuss with anyone we know who still believes in “both sides”.
Do we have any reason to think, or to thunk we know, that these two didn’t vote for Hillary Clinton?
patroclus
@?BillinGlendaleCA: The ghost of Al Smith disagrees.
Adam L Silverman
@Doug!: Wittes isn’t a lawyer either.
randy khan
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
That’s good advice if true, but it may just be part of the negotiation.
MattF
@Jeffro:
Better late then never, I guess. But what about the first 16 times?
schrodingers_cat
@Omnes Omnibus: So you did. I should have read the comments, first.
efgoldman
@Major Major Major Major:
Sheer volume on the intartoobz and their proprietary TV network is not indicative of the general population. All the surveys show church attendance us decreasing nationwide.
Adam L Silverman
@efgoldman:
Jews are not mud people. Mud people are those of mixed ethnicity and are the unwitting dupes of the Jews in their conspiracy against white Christians. One of the dumbest white supremacists ever. And that’s saying something.
TS
Rachel just listed a small number (10 or so) of the many issues that would be Scandals!!! in any other administration & get passing acknowledgement in the current regime.
Omnes Omnibus
@WaterGirl: I come from a Democratic family. I have been a life-long Dem. There are a lot of converts here. I welcome them, but sometimes I wonder “What took you so long?” I’ll welcome the real converts and take the votes of the temps. I might wait a while to make my judgment. Also, the fervor of the convert can be a bit much at times.
raven
@Jager: You weren’t at Emory were you?
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: And I come from a long line of DuPage county republicans!
Major Major Major Major
@efgoldman: the last part of my sentence is relevant, as is the fact that they got their boy as VP despite having a slightly smaller share of the population than they used to have.
Adam L Silverman
@GregB: The Bowling Green Massacre. Never forget!
WaterGirl
@Omnes Omnibus: @schrodingers_cat: I was happy to see both of make that comment. They reinforce each other in the midst of a lot of what I see as purity comments here tonight.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: You guys are Jewish? I learn something new every day.
Adam L Silverman
@Jeffro: I didn’t know Gerson joined the Navy.
raven
@Omnes Omnibus: Funny, you don’t look Buddhist.
Doug!
@Adam L Silverman:
He tries (unsuccessfully from this reader’s perspective) to write about law though.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@patroclus: He might, but he’s dead.
Omnes Omnibus
@raven: My family were GOP because of the Civil War and Lincoln until the Depression and FDR.
efgoldman
@schrodingers_cat:
They have no influence. They move no votes
Fuckem
raven
That’s Funny, You Don’t Look Buddhist: On Being a Faithful Jew and a Passionate Buddhist
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: Last time I looked.
Major Major Major Major
@Adam L Silverman: oh god it’s only been a year
MattF
@Adam L Silverman: I’d forgotten about that terrible event. Remember the BGM.
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: You can tell by looking? I know you can tell who isn’t, but who is?
J R in WV
@MattF:
Well… Hoe about a war crimes tribunal in The Hague with Trump trussed up by the Secret Service and delivered there on a USN passenger jet. . . wait . . . that would be going right. What could go wrong? I dunno.Not delivering him to The Hague, that would be wrong!
Miss Bianca
@WaterGirl: Go back and look – really look – at those couple of paragraphs. Then see if the rest of the article actually says anything useful, or continues the smug mutual self-congraluation about how smart and cool they are to have woken up, smelled smoke, and concluded that society must be on fire and that in that case, *maybe* voting for the Democrats like a “dumb-ass partisan” because oh my gosh, maybe both sides DON’T do it after all!
Yes, maybe “late” is better than “never”. I’ll take “late” with a dose of humility, or self-reflection, before considering someone an ally. Slinging around a bunch of hash like “we’re true independents, unlike you dumb-ass partisans”…sorry. They haven’t had a change of heart. I think they just saw their tumbrel numbers and said “oh, shit”.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: It is boring and pointless, which is what lead me to ask why you’d try it on.
Millard Filmore
@?BillinGlendaleCA:
I would put the start at the time Pat Robertson went on his religious show “The 700 Club” and lied for the Republican party. Reagan claimed that the CIA did not mine Nicaragua’s harbors, Pat was on his show the next night saying the exact same thing.
http://articles.latimes.com/1985-03-05/news/mn-12633_1_harbor-mining
Omnes Omnibus
@J R in WV: The US isn’t a part of the ICC.
WaterGirl
@Jeffro:
I particularly liked this paragraph, but there was a lot of good in this article.
I have no opinion of Michael Gerson coming into this – I have no idea if he is a democrat or a conservative or a weasel, but I like what he says in this article and if this is any indication, he can write well. I am curious – is he generally thought of as one of the good guys, one of the bad guys, or a sellout?
Major Major Major Major
@Corner Stone: I thought it might be amusing and pointless, you see, but I was wrong, much like you are about how ‘ally’ is defined
Corner Stone
This is fucking stupid. Beyond flatulent butt noises, what does it even mean?
Adam L Silverman
@Omnes Omnibus: I’ll email you the diagram.
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: My response. More or less.
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: ding, ding, ding.
Cheers,
Scott.
Adam L Silverman
@WaterGirl: He was one of President Bush’s (43) speechwriters.
efgoldman
@Adam L Silverman:
Sorry, can’t keep my racists and anti-semites straight.
Or, as was said of my late racist, trumpist brother in law before there was trump, “he ain’t prejudiced, he hates everybody”
Major Major Major Major
@WaterGirl: you know who else could write well?
(Fun fact: not Hitler!)
Omnes Omnibus
@Adam L Silverman: No, thank you. I am happy to take your word for it.
MattF
@WaterGirl: He was the Conspicuous Christian in W’s administration. Which is why he uses words like ‘conscience’ and ‘moral stain’.
patroclus
@WaterGirl: He was W’s chief speechwriter – clearly a weasel. But he’s right here – it was a well-written takedown of ZEGS and Republicans in general.
Omnes Omnibus
@Another Scott: I am happy to agree with you on something.
efgoldman
@Omnes Omnibus:
I can’t speak for Adam, but if I cross the Wisconsin state line, I turn into a (non-evangelical) generic Midwestern protestant. Zap!
Corner Stone
These two guys are busy trying to suck their own dicks in this article.
Hkedi [Kang T. Q.]
@Miss Bianca:
This… A million times this.
GregB
Dow Futures looking at over 1000 points down at opening.
Thank God I put all my money in Bitcoin.
Corner Stone
@Major Major Major Major: I agree you were wrong. Thanks.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: They’re idiots. Whether or not they’re useful idiots remains to be seen. If they actually do what they’re exhorting others to do, they’re useful. That’s all the slack I’ll cut them.
Major Major Major Major
@GregB: isn’t bitcoin down like 30% this last week?
MattF
@Greg B: If not more.
ETA: Reply was misdirected.
Corner Stone
Major Major Major Major
@MattF: this is why I keep all my money in dogecoin.
WaterGirl
@Miss Bianca: Okay, now I hate Wittes for defending GITMO. But I still think he is now an ally if he is telling people they need to vote democrat at all levels.
What stands out for me is that in their list of non-reasons for this change, it’s clear that they share little of my beliefs or my view of the world. Just reading their descriptions of their stances pisses me off. But I still think they are now allies in this fight.
They haven’t changed the (in my opinion) wrong-headed beliefs they have always held. But two things trumped that (small t, not big T): 1) Republicans are threatening our democracy and the rule of law, and 2) Trump encouraged Russian interference in our elections, and Republicans are supporting him in that.
Corner Stone
@Miss Bianca: There’s nothing in that article that indicates they voted for HRC. If not, why listen to them now?
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Hey, we elected Feingold and his sister is a Rabbi. I have been told that there is no good deli in Wisconsin by someone who would know – a loud woman with a NY accent on a commuter plane.
@Miss Bianca: What do you think about Cole and the other converts here?
Steve in the ATL
@Adam L Silverman: @Doug!: I’m a lawyer, so clearly it ain’t that impressive a feat.
Major Major Major Major
@Omnes Omnibus:
Splitters!
KS in MA
@Ohio Mom: She’s colorblind?
It would explain a few things…
Major Major Major Major
@Steve in the ATL: if you wrote that screenplay, now that would be something to brag about!
efgoldman
@Omnes Omnibus:
And then?
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Well said.
Jager
@raven: Not that i recall, then again it was the 60’s
MattF
@Omnes Omnibus: Good delis are few and far between. Did you know that the Carnegie closed? I used to go there with my sister, and when she ordered a pastrami and a celery soda, the waiter would gape at her. Not a tourist!
Omnes Omnibus
@efgoldman: Herb Kohl and Bud Selig. WI has its problems, but a lot of our Germans really are the good ones – 48ers.
chris
@Major Major Major Major: More! And the Nikkei is down 1200 as I write. Buckle up!
Omnes Omnibus
@MattF:
I don’t know what that means
Adam L Silverman
Someone is going back on the job market!
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: You take that back!!111
Cheers,
Scott.
efgoldman
@MattF:
As I’ve complained many times, there are none in RI or Southeastern MA. I have to go to the immediate Southern Boston suburbs just outside I-95 (circumferential highway) or into Brookline or Newton (an hour+ away, without traffic)
Steve in the ATL
@efgoldman:
Not Missouri synod, I hope–they are Southern Baptists wolves in Lutheran sheep’s clothing.
Which I assume is made of wool.
MattF
@Omnes Omnibus: Dr. Brown’s Cel-Ray. An acquired taste.
Omnes Omnibus
@Another Scott: Fuck you. :)
WaterGirl
@Adam L Silverman: Come on, Adam! Get real. There’s no way someone named Raj Shah
would becould possibly be a deputy press secretary for Trump.Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Hey, I need you to back me up on the thread below.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: I almost dragged you and some of the others down with me, but had a brief interlude of kindness. I hope that doesn’t become a habit.
WaterGirl
@Adam L Silverman: Okay, then I probably hate him. But I thought that was a good article. What did you think?
Steve in the ATL
@Major Major Major Major: working on it, but I need more info about Sri Lanka!
WaterGirl
@Major Major Major Major: I know, I know. Major Major Major Major? BGinChi? Someone else?
Adam L Silverman
@WaterGirl: I haven’t read it so have no comment. I was simply explaining who he was.
Omnes Omnibus
@MattF: Okay. Honestly, I am more familiar with London, Paris, and Chicago as major cities than I am with New York. Weird career pattern.
Ruckus
@MattF:
You can lead a horse to water but if he’s that stupid you’ll have to do it over and over. And over and over and over……….
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: I believe this statement of mine might, counselor, just *might*, be taken as giving some indication of exactly how I feel about Cole and other converts:
Regarding John Cole in particular? The man had the grace and the stones to say, “wow, was I *wrong*” when he converted to Democracy. And he’ll still say it when he jumps to a hasty conclusion. I *love* that about him, because humility and self-awareness appear to be so fucking RARE. He also hosts a heck of a great blog where all kinds of minds can meet, commiserate, and spar. So, I feel great about John Cole. *That’s* an ally.
Steve in the ATL
@Omnes Omnibus: did someone disparage ’80’s college alternative? I am on it–let no one speak ill of Hoodoo Gurus or Guadalcanal Diary!
Omnes Omnibus
@Steve in the ATL: Fighting for the status of D-III LACs as party schools.
efgoldman
@MattF:
Ah, but the Dr Brown’s cream soda is liquid ambrosia.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@WaterGirl: torture apologist and hard core “Christian”, if I’m not mistaken
I’ll take Wittes and Nichols and Wilson and David Frum as co-belligerents. I increasingly expect Jennifer Rubin to show up on MSNBC in a pinkie hat. She may go full Cole
WaterGirl
@MattF: @patroclus: Thanks. If I ever knew that I had forgotten it. Bush v. Gore pushed me over the edge and I had to tune out politics for awhile. Until that time, I actually believed that at the level of the Supreme Court, decisions were based on law and precedent and were never made based on political beliefs.
No, really.
Another Scott
@Omnes Omnibus: I thought I was finally welcomed into the B-J family.
Then the smiley ruined it.
(pout)
;-)
Also too, we’re not the audience for Rauch and Wittes piece. Of course. If they convince 3 people to vote Team D in November that wouldn’t have otherwise, that’s 3 more votes and it’s a good thing.
I actually expect this to have less impact on the vote total than that well known failure “No Labels”, but we should welcome every vote we can get (including if it’s unconditional and they were on the other side before). What matters more is turning out our voters, though. And making sure that they’re able to vote.
Cheers,
Scott.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
awesome. (obviously not)
I hope she does go the full Cole.
WaterGirl
@Adam L Silverman: That’s fair, thanks.
Adam L Silverman
Ooopsie!
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: From my original comment on this: There are a lot of converts here. I welcome them, but sometimes I wonder “What took you so long?” I’ll welcome the real converts and take the votes of the temps. I might wait a while to make my judgment. Also, the fervor of the convert can be a bit much at times.
My question is at which point do think they aren’t useful idiots? And at which point do you think i do not? And is there a difference?
Omnes Omnibus
@Omnes Omnibus: Alright then.
WaterGirl
@Adam L Silverman: I am laughing out loud. Literally. And I can’t seem to stop. That is so awesome.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: I’m not sure I get your question. Or maybe it’s just that your question sounds like quibbling to me.
Reminds me, for some reason, of my favorite lawyer riddle:
What happens when a Mafia don goes to law school?
He makes you an offer you can’t understand.
Sherparick
@Adam L Silverman: A Wiley E. Coyote moment so to speak. 6 years ago two other “centrists” Ornstein & Mann came to the same conclusion & were ostracized off the corporate media High Church of Both Sides circuit.
JR
@efgoldman: well at least your brother in law got one thing right
efgoldman
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Don’t bet real money
@WaterGirl:
Would you like to see my sparkly pony, little girl?
Omnes Omnibus
@Miss Bianca: When do you reject Cole? When didn’t he do enough? What is enough? How does one become okay?
Steve in the ATL
@Ruckus:
WaterGirl
@efgoldman: Sorry, bud, that little girl is long gone. It was a devastating lesson, shocking really.
Until 2007, I watched all the Sunday shows and thought I was well informed, and I really liked the New York Times because I thought they gave you the real story instead of the spin you got from the other papers. Sad.
Miss Bianca
@Omnes Omnibus: O2, have you been drinking? Seriously, what is your point here?
Librarian
Wittes and Rauch were on MJ today, and Rauch gave “universal healthcare” as an example of Democratic extremism, as opposed to the GOP extremism of what Trump is doing. So even now he is still saying both sides do it. Fuck him.
eemom
@Librarian:
Yeah, and he said it in the article too, which is another reason it drove me over the edge.
Also, I still can’t believe all these good folks here who honestly think a piece of drek like this in the Atlantic is going to sway any votes.
Lolly
@JR:
Non-partisanship for its own sake is as mindless as blind unquestioned partisanship, but it provides such a self-righteous sense of pride in one’s own independence and supposed clear thinking.
eemom
@Miss Bianca:
um, that these two hack-clowns are comparable to the sincerity of a John Cole?
Dunno. I do think he’s on the verge of completing his journey from respected commenter to psycho-troll, though.
Mike in DC
So, if Trump has formally declined to be interviewed, or will do so soon, then I expect we will hear about a subpoena sometime later this month. Trump’s lawyers can fight it, but if the appeals are expedited, he’s likely to be ordered to testify later this year. Even a rightward leaning court is unlikely to sharply curtail its own powers.
Corner Stone
No further comment needed.
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: That is actually a true statement. My evangelical sister falls into that category, as do many other people. I think it’s wrong and it makes me sick, but it’s accurate.
I see that as describing something that “is”, not as them endorsing that.
Steeplejack
@WaterGirl:
OT. Belatedly saw your Ro-Tel comment downstairs and just wanted say that I cheerfully use it too. My quickie answer to whomever probably sounded a little dismissive.
Corner Stone
@WaterGirl: They used “slaughter of babies” in their article. I don’t give a shit what idiots like your sister vote for.
patrick II
@Omnes Omnibus:
They probably are not converts to the Democratic party , but are anti-Trump. The next time someone like Romney runs they will be voting republican again. They are not so much converts as embarrassed. I feel that way about nearly all of the republicans who now claim to see the light.
Captain C
@Major Major Major Major: Yes, from June of 1941, on the grounds that he was willing to sacrifice as many Soviet lives as necessary to stop the Wehrmacht.
WaterGirl
@Corner Stone: I was on vacation with her when the nazi’s were in Virginia last summer. I try to not talk politics with her but I was so appalled I started reading snippets of the news of the nazis with torches, etc, and the woman who was murdered with the car.
Her response? Do you know how many babies are murdered every year? So my sister is one of the people they were describing, and there are a lot more like her. It’s very sad that an otherwise intelligent person can believe all the crap that she is fed. So you don’t have to give a shit who she votes for. I’m just saying that they were describing my sister and others like her.
WaterGirl
@Steeplejack: I must have missed it if someone was dissing rotel. Their loss!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@WaterGirl: and I’d bet that she and her friends vote in every election, every office on the ticket, and know who their state legislators are
cokane
@?BillinGlendaleCA: my argument was never whether it was partisan or not. yes, it’s true that religion in politics used to be part of the bipartisan consensus in this country. that’s exactly my point.
a thousand flouncing lurkers (was fidelio)
@p.a.: I was more struck by the fact that it was a pantsuit, a style her husband dislikes a great deal, considering them hideously unfeminine. Of course, the light color would stand out in a crowd and make her hard to miss if he looked up and around.
WaterGirl
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: i’m not sure if that’s snark or serious. But she never misses an election. I agreed with the person that said they should be called abortionists not christians.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@WaterGirl: Dead serious. My father’s side of the family is hard-core Catholic (he’s a liberal agnostic). I am close to some of them, but we never talk politics, which sometimes requires a little conversational work on my part, but the point is: they’re all very engaged politically.
frosty
@Adam L Silverman: ohpleaseohpleaseohplease.
Happy to hear Alito turned down the PA R lege. Happy to see them keep digging when they’re in a hole.
SWMBO
@Ohio Mom: Could be that she has another layer under the sweater? I’m thinking bullet proofing that goes from her neck down. If nothing else, Trump would want her close to use as a shield wouldn’t he?
hugely
@Thoughtful David: shes a likudnik (or the modern version of it), being Jewish doesnt make you a reactionary asshole imo, but being an inflexible right winger with real or metaphorical blood on your hands probably does.
JustRuss
Hrmm. So does this mean we’re getting close to peak “Both Sides”?