Open Thread: Blowback on the Shithole

American diplomats scrambled Friday to salvage their nation’s bonds with Africa, Haiti and even the celebrated “special relationship” with Britain after President Donald Trump, in the span of a few hours, deeply offended much of the world with the most undiplomatic of remarks.

Trump’s description of African nations as a “shithole” and other inflammatory comments became the latest and perhaps most direct test of whether America’s global partnership can withstand its president’s loose lips. In Washington and far-flung foreign capitals, U.S. officials launched into urgent cleanup mode…

The White House, too, was reeling from the fallout. Staffers fanned out to do television appearances in support of Trump and reached out to Republicans on Capitol Hill to coordinate damage control.

Undersecretary of State Steve Goldstein, in charge of U.S. public diplomacy, said Trump has the right to “make whatever remark he chooses,” calling it the benefit of being president. He said Trump’s comments notwithstanding, it was diplomats’ obligation to send the message to other countries that the United States cares “greatly about the people that are there.”…

Trump ignored shouted questions about his Africa comment and about whether he’s a racist during an event Friday honoring Martin Luther King Jr. But he wasn’t silent the night before.

As his comments, disclosed by participants in the meeting, ricocheted around the world, Trump made calls to friends and outside advisers to judge their reaction to the tempest, said a person who spoke to Trump but wasn’t authorized to discuss a private conversation.

He wasn’t apologetic, the person said. Instead, Trump blamed the media for distorting his meaning, arguing his description of “shithole” was not racist but rather a straightforward assessment of some nations’ depressed conditions. Trump also said he believed he was expressing what many people think, according to the person…


And what of the Republican response?


(For those of strong stomach, the video of Ryan has to be seen to be believed)

253 replies
  1. 1
    trollhattan says:

    Ryan’s right, because the Johnsons of Rock Ridge totally didn’t want the Irish moving in.

  2. 2
    Kay says:

    Gov. Eric Greitens might survive the immediate impact of sexual blackmail allegations enveloping him, but his national hopes are disappearing and the lack of unqualified support even from fellow Republicans means he will be increasingly isolated if he remains in office.

    This is why experience is important before taking the Top Job. Imagine what we could have avoided if Trump had been elected mayor or something. Such a dumb idea, the “outsider” thing. All it means is “no one knows anything about this person and he has no relevant experience”. In what dumb world is that a recommend?

    Rocketed right to the top, douchebag did. Hire in haste and regret in leisure.

  3. 3
    Jeffro says:

    What was that one tweet I saw – Trumpov insults all of Africa while China is pouring tens of billions of dollars into African countries’ infrastructure?

    Strategic, that orange one…

  4. 4
    efgoldman says:

    Granny Starver and his KKKrazy KKKaukkkus have the moral standing of slave traders and concentration camp guards. No I’m not exaggerating for effect.

    Fuckem

  5. 5
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    Fuck you, Trump.

    Fuck you and every single fucking one of your fucking enablers.

    Fuck you and every single horse you rode in on and every single family member and staffer you enlisted to your cause.

    Fry in hell forever, Donald. Fuck you. With pitchforks. The rustier the better.

  6. 6
    Brachiator says:

    Undersecretary of State Steve Goldstein, in charge of U.S. public diplomacy, said Trump has the right to “make whatever remark he chooses,” calling it the benefit of being president.

    Really? This is just sad. A weird assertion that the President, that Trump, is some kind of absolute monarch.

    He wasn’t apologetic, the person said. Instead, Trump blamed the media for distorting his meaning, arguing his description of “shithole” was not racist but rather a straightforward assessment of some nations’ depressed conditions. Trump also said he believed he was expressing what many people think, according to the person…

    Yes, Trump is just as racist as his supporters, is proud of it, and worst of all, intends on giving them what they want.

    It must be emphasized that Trump is not just being racist or using racist language, he is outlining US immigration policy and giving directions about legislation that he wants.

  7. 7
    trollhattan says:

    Just another day in America.

    Trump Accuser Jessica Drake Has an NDA Preventing Her from Talking About Donald Trump

    The Daily Beast was informed late Friday that porn star Jessica Drake is not allowed to discuss President Donald J. Trump on account of a non-disclosure agreement she signed barring her from any such talk. NDAs are often deployed as part of settlements to silence accusers.

    “Jessica’s NDA blankets any and every mention of Trump, so she’s legally unable to comment,” her publicist informed The Daily Beast. “Jessica signed a non-disclosure agreement after her allegations of misconduct, and she can’t do as much as peep his name publicly.”

    The White House has not yet responded to requests for comment.

  8. 8
    Ken says:

    Cotton: Does not recall
    Perdue: Does not recall

    They might want to see a doctor, in case Trump’s senility is contagious.

  9. 9
    debbie says:

    That Tapper clip up top is worth watching all the way through.

  10. 10
    Kay says:

    Jennifer Palmieri‏Verified account
    @jmpalmieri
    Follow Follow @jmpalmieri
    More Jennifer Palmieri Retweeted New York Magazine
    As person who set up this interview and assured HRC & team I believed Chris would be fair, this makes me feel ill.

    Should be interesting to see if the coverage of the next female nominee changes now that we’re finding out there were so many creeps covering Clinton. Remember the outraged denials from media after the election? Voters needed this info and THEY kept it from us, because they don’t cover their own problems.

  11. 11
    Zinsky says:

    “Schlonged in the Shithole: The Vulgar Presidency of Donald J. Trump”

  12. 12
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @trollhattan: Three points:
    1) Ryan made this about himself via his forebears in an attempt to demonstrate empathy without actually addressing the folks he was supposed to be demonstrating empathy with.
    2) He then screwed even this up by referring to the lovely Africans in his district and saying they’re great citizens. That’s great citizens, not great Americans. So here too he failed to extend Americanness.
    3) If you watch the video he is literally shrinking into himself. He’s trying to make himself disappear rather than have to talk about this.

  13. 13
    efgoldman says:

    @Kay:

    Rocketed right to the top, douchebag did. Hire in haste and regret in leisure.

    Right. Would you hire….
    A general or admiral who had never been in charge of more than a scout troop…
    A head surgeon who had never held a scalpel…
    An airline pilot who had never been off the ground…

    You get the idea.

    And if said inexperience candidate were a pig-ignorant buffoon, who had no idea what he didn’t know, and incapable and unwilling to learn….

    We’re the patients and the passengers.

  14. 14
  15. 15
    Kay says:

    @trollhattan:

    No one is permitted to have any real information on the President of the United States, or his family. Nope! You’ll get only what they tell you, even though they lie constantly.

    It’s ludicrous, and a standard that was applied to NO OTHER President in the last 30 years. Just Trump. Special rules.

  16. 16
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Brachiator: he seems not to know what “diplomacy” is, or what the State Department does.

  17. 17
    trollhattan says:

    @debbie:
    Agreed. No punches pulled, he really drills down instead. Yet another David Duke endorsement!

  18. 18
    Kay says:

    @efgoldman:

    I think it’s the general devaluing of work. Anyone can do anything, because everything’s easy! Just ask the biggest most arrogant assholes! Piece of cake!

    It’s such a weird and cynical and hopeless idea, the belief that people learn NOTHING from doing their jobs. You are exactly as qualified on Day One as Day One Thousand. No improvement, no value added. All your effort and work adds up to a big fat zero. It’s wrong because of course it’s wrong. It’s crazy.

  19. 19
    efgoldman says:

    For jackals and jackallettes who are swimming in the despair of Orangemandyas, I posted this late last night just as th thread go stomped. Be optimistic, the kids are alright

    POCONOS, Pa. – At the Mount Airy Resort in the Poconos of Pennsylvania, reverend Gilbert Caldwell and his wife, Grace, arrived recently for their second honeymoon. They were greeted warmly — a sharp contrast to their first visit, 60 years earlier.
    .
    In 1957 they were married in North Carolina, then drove eight hours only to be turned back for being black.

    As we say, read (or watch) the whole thing.

  20. 20
    Yarrow says:

    Mike Pence’s silence on the president’s comments is not going unnoticed.

    Vice President Mike Pence has nothing to say.

    Pence’s office has ignored repeated requests for comment in the wake of President Donald Trump’s explosive comments on Thursday deriding Haiti and African nations as “shithole countries” and saying the United States should increase immigration to the U.S. from countries like Norway.

  21. 21

    @Kay: I hear he’s in excellent health.

    (Pay no attention to the obviously obese man in front of the camera eating a Quarter Pounder and fries.)

  22. 22
    Tom says:

    @Ken: Wouldn’t it be wonderful to recall them?

  23. 23
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Kay: In Greitens case he based his experience on being a retired Lt. Commander who’d done the majority of his career as a SEAL. Followed by establishing and successfully running a philanthropic organization to help veterans. Which, by all accounts, is actually a solid/decent charity and does a lot of good work. I’m not saying that this is enough to justify electing him to governor as his first office. But it isn’t zero leadership experience.

    Now doing all this when you’ve got a taste for BDSM and a violent one too boot is not a good idea. Because I guarantee this isn’t the first or only time he’s done this. No one who does this sort of thing does it just once.

  24. 24
    efgoldman says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Fuck you and every single fucking one of your fucking enablers.

    Mah goodness and mercy me. What happened to the propuh South’n lady i met on some blog or othuh, yeahs ago?

  25. 25
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Yarrow: The Vice President will comment when Mother tells him it is okay to do so.

  26. 26
    Markk says:

    @Kay: IOKIYAR. Its not just Trump. Trump just exposes how deep this goes and why no one should ever listen to or repeat a thing Franklin Graham or Fallwell Jr, Newt, etc. any of these hypocrites says again. Even CNN has to always find some RW liar to defend an indefensible thing a Republican says or does. It’s like a Fairness Doctrine (ex. MTP with always 2-3 Republicans vs. 1 Democrat) but for Republicons only.

  27. 27
    Chet Murthy says:

    @trollhattan: Luckily for her, Littledick didn’t seem to have committed sexual assault upon her. Though simple assault? Yeah, I think so. So not clear the “NDAs can’t be used to cover up crime” defense probably wouldn’t work.

    I remember that a “bill of attainder” is forbidden in the Constitution. But ISTM that a blue state could pass a law providing for the state footing the bill for any defense in the case of suit for breach of NDA by one Donald J (Littledick) Trump. It seems like….

  28. 28
    lamh36 says:

    I posted this late in the last thread but reposting here…Late in thread, but if ya’ll remember I work in a hospital Microb lab and this flu season is kicking our behinds. we doing at least 25 tests a day, almost 200 tests last month alone, about a 20% + (mostly A but also B)that’s not counting the number of lab workers, who are required to be vaccinated, coming down w/it

    as a lab worker in a hospital, we are pretty much required to get the flu shot, so the majority of us have, but if not then you are required to wear a mask at all times. A number of folks who have had the shot, have gotten the flu anyway, but a milder version than the full flu.

  29. 29

    @trollhattan: I wonder how these types of NDA’s would test out in court?

  30. 30
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman:

    What happened to the propuh South’n lady i met on some blog or othuh, yeahs ago?

    He’s now both the Attorney General and doesn’t remember most of anything he’s done in the past.

  31. 31
    Waratah says:

    Was that Ryan trying to sound presidential ?

  32. 32
    Kay says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Oh, I’m okay with him. He’s a governor. I would prefer “statehouse” or lower exec position but I’ll take governor. That’s the stepping stone for a Rising Star. They know him now and now that they know him they can spare the rest of us this rising star.

    Trump would have been a terrible mayor but it would have limited the damage.

  33. 33
    Brachiator says:

    If you watch the video he is literally shrinking into himself. He’s trying to make himself disappear rather than have to talk about this.

    The Congressional Republicans are gutless and are letting Trump push them towards racist extremes in official government policy. We haven’t seen this degree of explicit racism at the federal level since the presidency of Woodrow Wilson.

    The Democrats are pushing back, but need to be emphatically clear in their opposition.

    ETA. The Wilson presidency also saw the invasion of Haiti to assert American interests.

  34. 34
    trollhattan says:

    @Kay:
    Nixon was an open book compared to this guy. I can honestly say I at first missed that we had TWO porn actresses in the last two days. I kanna keep up, kiptin!

  35. 35
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chet Murthy: Eric Boehlert set up a fund to cover anyone who’s signed a NDA with the President and wants to go public during the campaign. As far as I know no one has ever taken him up on it.

    This is the stuff that both Rick Wilson and Liz Mair were trying to get the news media – print and TV – to bite on during the primaries. Including payouts for abortions. They had no luck because the news media was worried about legal blowback. Mair indicated on twitter yesterday that a lot more of these stories are out there. And coming. Wilson seemed to indicate agreement.

  36. 36
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Bronze with V or show-up? Obviously, if he was a SEAL in that AO and an Oxfrdie he’s no lightweight.

  37. 37
    Uncle Ebeneezer says:

    @Adam L Silverman: 4.) Also it’s a seriously annoying and common micro-agression for white people to chime in on racism by bringing up Irish ancestors. The worst version is equating Irish indentured servitude with chattel slavery obviously, but frankly even bringing up your Irish ancestors into discussions about racism is still pretty bad form. So of course, Ryan provided just another example of how to be a shitty white person.

  38. 38
    efgoldman says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    He’s now both the Attorney General and doesn’t remember most of anything he’s done in the past.

    I believe we are discussing two VERY different people!

  39. 39
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @lamh36: Did you wash your hands before posting your comment? Are you trying to infect the rest of us?//

  40. 40
    Chet Murthy says:

    @Kay: Ehh, no, that only applies to targets of the daily one-minute hate. Even Scarborough said Obama was a glorified state senator [and the “even” there is a joke, b/c he’s a shitbird in my book.]

  41. 41
    trollhattan says:

    @efgoldman:
    Now go sit a spell on the sun porch and take your vapors medicine. These are surely tryin’ times.

  42. 42
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Kay: But he couldn’t do the “I’m the white guy that’ll fix the mess I’ve told everyone that the first black guy to be mayor made (even though he really didn’t).”, because Giuliani had already done that crap. Also, no one in NY would’ve voted for him for mayor including his own family.

  43. 43

    @Adam L Silverman: In “fairness” to the media, there was that lady and her emails. You can’t get more salacious than that.

  44. 44
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Brachiator: Yep. I’m aware. If you recall, I did a post on the Wilson interregnum back in fall 2016.

  45. 45
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @trollhattan: set a spell!

  46. 46

    @trollhattan: I’m afraid it’s too late for that, efg’s on the couch clutching his pearls.

  47. 47
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: I’ve never bothered to pull his bio, so I have no idea which team he was assigned to when he was doing small team ops. But they’ve all seen almost constant operations since 2001. So I’m sure he’s racked up his share of awards and citations.

  48. 48
    Chet Murthy says:

    deleted b/c Kay already said it

  49. 49
    raven says:

    @Steve in the ATL: You watching this?

  50. 50
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    SNL should be fun, tonight.

  51. 51
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I guess if he has a purple heart it was probably V device.

  52. 52
    debbie says:

    @trollhattan:

    Also, that clip of Campaign Trump pouring love on Florida’s Haitian community (“unlike Crooked Hillary Clinton,” paraphrasing Trump) was something I don’t remember seeing before.

  53. 53
    efgoldman says:

    @trollhattan:

    Nixon was an open book compared to this guy.

    Dickie, for all his myriad faults (so many that he probably should have chosen a different line of work), Nixon was a lawyer, and a super-experienced and excellent politician, and a war veteran. Basically the opposite of Hair Furor.

  54. 54
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer: No argument here. Especially because one of the reasons the Irish were allowed to be white in the colonies and then America is because the African slaves were clearly not white. I’m not trying to make light of the Irish’s own trouble with discrimination, especially Irish Catholics, but Irish Americans ability to be considered white from the colonial period onward is like the poster child for privilege. And to a certain extent the same thing worked for Jewish-Americans, especially as many a plantation in the Caribbean was owned by Jews. As well as a decent number in the south as well.

  55. 55
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @efgoldman: Sorry, but based on that description you could see how one could be easily confused. The AG certainly is.

  56. 56
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Sure, sure.

  57. 57
    efgoldman says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    efg’s on the couch clutching his pearls.

    So hard that the strand broke and they rolled all over the house. Good thing we don’t have a cat.

  58. 58
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer: Yeah, I got into a whole discussion on Facebook with a bunch of white people of what shithole countries our ancestors came from, and after a while I had to step back a little and note that Trump here was specifically deprecating *black* immigrants, and white-on-black racism in the United States is really a whole different type of thing.

  59. 59
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @raven: yes, and it’s annoying the shit out of me

  60. 60
    Yarrow says:

    @lamh36: Thanks for re-posting. I think everyone who can should get a flu shot. It’s not perfect, but herd immunity is a thing. It helps people who can’t get the flu shot stay well. Even it’s not perfect it helps.

  61. 61
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: Here’s the link to the bio. Interestingly he was a registered Democrat till 2015 when he decided to run. I don’t know whether this is because he didn’t think he couldn’t win statewide in Missouri as a Democrat.
    https://governor.mo.gov/about-governor

    Here’s the relevant bits:

    Both of Eric’s grandfathers served in the military in World War II. Inspired by them, and with a desire to serve his country, Eric joined the United States Navy on January 20, 2001. After graduating from Officer Candidate School, Eric received orders to Basic Underwater Demolition/ SEAL Training (BUD/S), and reported for duty. He graduated with BUD/S class 237.

    Eric served as a U.S. Navy SEAL on four deployments: in Afghanistan with a counterterrorism US Special Operations Special Mission Unit, as the commander of a Mark V Special Operations Craft Detachment in Southeast Asia, and as the commander of Naval Special Warfare Task Unit Manda Bay in the Horn of Africa. In 2005-06, he served as a White House Fellow under President George W. Bush, and in 2006, he deployed to Iraq for his fourth tour of duty, as the commander of an al-Qaeda targeting cell in Fallujah.

    After his unit was hit by a suicide truck bomb, Eric returned home and founded The Mission Continues, which helps America’s veterans live lives of purpose, productivity, dignity and meaning here at home. In seven years as CEO, Eric built The Mission Continues into a nationally recognized veterans organization and won numerous awards for his service and leadership.

  62. 62
    Brachiator says:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer:

    Also it’s a seriously annoying and common micro-agression for white people to chime in on racism by bringing up Irish ancestors.

    Not always. The Irish were considered to be shithole people from a shithole country, and not worthy of consideration by Americans of quality.

    Hell, in the 19th century blacks and the Irish were often depicted as equally primitive.

    In this cartoon, captioned “A King of -Shanty,” the comparison becomes explicit. The “Ashantee” were a well known African tribe; “shanty” was the Irish word for a shack or poor man’s house. The cartoon mocks Irish poverty, caricatures irish people as ape like and primitive, and suggests they are little different from Africans, who the cartoonists seems to see the same way. This cartroon irishman has, again, the outhrust mouth, sloping forehead, and flat wide nose of the standard Irish caricature.

    Naked mobile browser link.

    https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/01/28/irish-apes-tactics-of-de-humanization/

    The problem with Ryan and others is in not being fully empathetic and not owning history, and in hiding behind the belated whiteness he has acquired.

  63. 63
    jl says:

    Scandinavian countries were total shitholes 150 years ago, full of poverty and grueling work, malnutrition, almost total lack of access to upward social mobility and economic security for the vast majority of the population.. Every place has been a shithole at one time or another. The Trumpsters are doing their best give the US another spell in shitholeville.

    So, if it was just telling the truth, it was a truth that doesn’t amount to much and not worth uttering. That’s why I’ll go with the real issue being Trump’s racism.

  64. 64
    gorram says:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer: 6. It’s also apropos of nothing, he uses this to say immigration independent of place of origin is good, but not address the actual issue at hand with any sort of solution to racist rankings of immigrants into good vs bad ones.

    The specific ethnic group he’s mentioning was ultimately let in without much strife at the gate, and even the places of being “looked down on” he points to are radically different from anything related to this racist idea of dividing people up between who can and who can’t enter. The message he’s trying to get out there (that we should let people in) isn’t thing he could have said, but it’s not actually a response to Trump’s statements.

    He’s bringing up different experiences to distract is honestly the vibe I get from it. It’s an entirely different discussion he would prefer to have, so he’s trying to get it started.

  65. 65
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Brachiator: Funny, I thought we ALL had the right to mske whatever remarks we choose – a benefit of the Constitution – along with taking the consequences of those remarks. He wants to be consequence free. Problem is that for an occupant of the White House, the consequences fall on all of us. Soneone who wanted to be president instead of just squatting on the property would be measured in his remarks. My constitutionally rightful remark is that Trump is a racist and an idiot.

  66. 66
    ThresherK says:

    @efgoldman: I remember the incessant radio ads from NYC area stations. I didn’t know “Beautiful Mount Airy Lodge” was still running. Nice for that couple to get their deserved welcome.

  67. 67
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Huh, some Brown Water Navy in there.

  68. 68
    Brachiator says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    I’m not trying to make light of the Irish’s own trouble with discrimination, especially Irish Catholics, but Irish Americans ability to be considered white from the colonial period onward is like the poster child for privilege.

    This is not quite historically accurate. See my earlier comment here.

    To some degree, the whiteness of Italians, the Irish, Jews and other groups who were not English or German, was historically belated, and accelerated in part by the soci@l Darwinism just before and after World War I.

  69. 69
    efgoldman says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    it’s annoying the shit out of me

    Dome team outdoors in the winter.
    Just sayin’

  70. 70
    trollhattan says:

    @Steve in the ATL:
    Noted for next time! Ah’m-a Yankee and all.

  71. 71

    @jl:

    Scandinavian countries were total shitholes 150 years ago

    IIRC, Franklin didn’t care all that much for the German population.

  72. 72
  73. 73
    NotMax says:

    @efgoldman

    Back in to 70s, last time I was in the area (and probably beyond that), among Poconos resorts Mt. Air Lodge was well-known as the most snooty, nose-upturned-in-the-air, most all encompassing of the very worst of the Main Line’s entrenched backward-looking values.

    Somewhat further north in the Poconos (but open to all) was the unfortunately named White Beauty View Resort.

  74. 74
    trollhattan says:

    @efgoldman:
    My spouse knows how to re-string clutching pearls so they don’t all spill at once (trick is a knot between each).

  75. 75
    Yarrow says:

    @Gelfling 545: The president has the right to say whatever he wants but by choosing to take the oath of office he also takes on much greater responsibility for his words. It’s very common to talk about our rights and much less common to talk about our responsibilities. Certainly this president seems unaware of any responsibilities that come with the office.

  76. 76
    gorram says:

    @Brachiator: I think this is part of the limitation to doing what Ryan did though, that race wasn’t categorized in the same way then as it is now. Most Irish people were described even then as being “White” and that afforded them advantages – there just wasn’t the concept of a singular White race, so they were seen as specifically a separate one (and inferior to) particularly English people, but most other Europeans for that matter.

    There’s this almost ghost of anti-Black sentiment in how English people approached celtic populations (I mean, look at this awful nonsense), but it seems a bit foolish to get too simple in how the situation maps to modern dynamics. We can have a discussion about historical treatment of Irish people (and its modern ramifications – all too relevant again with the border debates resurrected by Brexit), but that’s seldom how White people, particularly White Americans, bring up Irish suffering, particularly in response to mentions of present suffering by people of color.

  77. 77
    raven says:

    @NotMax: Did you get in the bunker (or the Stupa down the hill?)

  78. 78
    NotMax says:

    @NotMaxTypo.

    Mt. Airy Lodge

  79. 79
    debbie says:

    @ThresherK:

    Go, I remember those ads. Figured it was just borscht belt schtick.

  80. 80
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @efgoldman: Falcons had no business being the playoffs. I’m not terribly disappointed. Monday night was far more traumatic.

  81. 81
    jl says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Germans who emigrated to North America weren’t considered to be really White by the English back then. The younger Franklin wrote some disparaging remarks about their skin tone being too dark to be a really attractive people. The younger Franklin also found the women to be excessively thick and dumpy.

    Edit: and they wouldn’t learn English and would never fit in to American culture. A sinister, dark, foreign influence lodged in the midst of America.

  82. 82
    NotMax says:

    @raven

    Wasn’t even aware of it. Was engaged in some heavy communing with Morpheus.

  83. 83
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @gorram: Additionally the merit argument that he’s making, not that he understands it, but it is what Miller and Cotton and others are whispering to him about, would have excluded his mother who had no education and no skills. And his paternal grandfather. Both of whom, of course, came to the US as a result of family who had already immigrated to the US.

  84. 84
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Kay:
    “Trump would have been a terrible mayor but it would have limited the damage.”
    And given everyone a chance to see that he was hopelessly inept.

  85. 85
    NotMax says:

    @debbie

    Borscht Belt was the Catskills (NY), not the Poconos (PA). Grossinger’s, Kutsher’s, etc., etc.

    Kind of interesting documentary about Kutsher’s on either Amazon Prime or Netflix, I forget which.

  86. 86
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: That was the NAVSOC component to Task Force HOA’s anti-piracy operations.

  87. 87
    jl says:

    I think it is pretty clear that Trump didn’t mean ‘shithole countries’, he meant ‘shithole people’ because they were not White, or didn’t speak English, or Trump properties didn’t do enough business there, or for whatever bigoted nonsense rambled through his head.

    Edit: though I am curious whether Trump meant ‘Norway’ or ‘Normay’. I think he nominated an ambassador to Normay, but am not sure.

  88. 88
    raven says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Tell me about it.

  89. 89
    Viva BrisVegas says:

    Sometimes “The Simpsons” gets it right and sometimes they get it wrong:

    “Fox News, not racist, but No.1 with racists.”

    The not racist part of course.

  90. 90
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Brachiator: Actually what I’ve presented is based on a scholarly article by an African American who is also a professor of African American Studies that I read back in grad school (1999). So don’t ask me to find it, especially as my copy at the time was hard copy and is in a box in storage. The article stuck with me so I hung on to it.

    And yes I’m very aware that the Irish were still subjected to the ape imagery and comparison. I used to use all of that stuff when I taught criminology. Specifically, the early race and crime theories based on Lombroso’s work in Italian prisons.

  91. 91
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: The dude next door has made some noise about doing that stuff but not as a Seal.

  92. 92

    @jl: Hmmm, what kind of name is Trump anyway? Sounds kind of Germanic*, maybe Franklin was on to something.

    *I’m part German.

  93. 93
    gorram says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I think there’s a weird pattern here to a lot of hated groups within Europe becoming idealized “ethnic Whites” in at least some far-flung settler colonies (after all, that’s where those colonial powers needed the White bodies to go and they sure didn’t like them being in their backyards).

    Adding on to your examples, the Basques are still pretty deeply hated within Spain, but they were among the hacienda owners in Latin America; the Huguenots were nearly eradicated in Europe, but were the backbone of the White settlers in South Africa; I just recently ran across some Greek and Italian background Australians talking about their oppression as “wogs” (ie: “”””Mediterranean”””” background people) who they self-proclaimed as the most oppressed group in Australia (where, you know, indigenous people were legally classified as “fauna” until the 1970s and anti-Asian street violence is horrifyingly common).

    If you’ve read Timothy Snyder’s “Black Earth” he almost paints a similar dynamic as existing within inter-war Poland, where the Jewish population was deeply hated by the antisemitic government for “taking up” resources that could have gone to non-Jewish Poles, but also oddly coveted as a group that could settle the then-British controlled colony in Palestine, and effectively transform it into Poland’s lone would-be colony. (Needless to say, that didn’t happen.) It’s entirely possible to see Jewish background people ensnared in that situation as being deeply oppressed, but also citing that oppression to obscure a reality of complicity in a broader colonial system.

  94. 94
    gorram says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: IIRC It’s anglicized from German Drumpf.

  95. 95
    gorram says:

    @Adam L Silverman: But see, she had the merit of being White.

  96. 96
    Baud says:

    I’m trying to learn Spanish so I was reading a Spanish newspaper, and “shitholes” in Spanish is “países de mierda.”

  97. 97

    @Steve in the ATL: I blame the Rams coach for giving the starters a week off*.

    *The kid was pissed about that too, since she went to the New Year’s Eve game.

  98. 98
    jl says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Franklin complained the German’s worked too hard, tended towards being self-centered and stingy, would never fit into a community where people would look our for each others welfare.

    So, at ‘worked too hard’ I think Don Drumpf Jr. clearly slipped off Franklin’s radar.

  99. 99
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @lamh36: I got the shot – old people dose- and while everybody who was at Christmas dinner got miserably sick with flu, i got only very mild symptoms for about 36 hours. It has generally worked out that way since I started getting the shots. If it didn’t prevent flu entirely, I got only a very minor case.

  100. 100
    Baud says:

    @gorram: The Germans didn’t send us their best.

  101. 101
    raven says:

    @Gelfling 545: I got that one too, it made my shoulder sore as hell but I think the Rose Bowl trip would have made me even sicker if I hadn’t gotten it.

  102. 102
    The Dangerman says:

    @efgoldman:

    Fuckem

    When efgoldman talks, people should listen.

    This is a preview of coming attractions as Mueller could produce a video of Trump “servicing” Putin and the Republicans won’t do a thing. Corrupt to the core.

    Fuckem.

  103. 103
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @gorram: There’s a thriving Basque community in Boise, Idaho.

  104. 104
    Peale says:

    @jl: thankfully, they were steadfastly against teetoalling and laws forbidding alcohol in Sunday. Elst we probably would be still fighting for a drink.

  105. 105
    Chet Murthy says:

    @Baud: Aw hell, it’s much worse than that. Littledick’s grandpa Fred tried to go back to Bavaria (from whence he came) but they wouldn’t have him, and threw him back out.
    per Wikipedia

    He later returned to Germany and married. When authorities found that he had emigrated when young to avoid fulfilling his military service, he lost his Bavarian citizenship; he and his family returned to the United States.

  106. 106
    lamh36 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: LOL…you would not believe how often I iwash my hands at work, but not so much at home…but then again, at work, I’m handling biohazardous and infectious specimens, so…we have a shelf of different lotions near the sink, cause our hands get dry from all the washing…lol

  107. 107
    Sebastian says:

    @Kay:

    Yeah, I posted a few video links to that.

    Here’s a whole thread by Matthew Gertz, which you might have seen already. You got so see/read to believ.me.

    In light of the footage of MSNBC’s Chris Matthews joking about his “Bill Cosby pill” before an interview with Hillary Clinton, I’m going to tweet some of his sexist and misogynistic comments from our archives.

    This will take a while. 1/too manY

    https://twitter.com/mattgertz/status/951936341989888001

  108. 108
    Brachiator says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    Actually what I’ve presented is based on a scholarly article by an African American who is also a professor of African American Studies that I read back in grad school (1999).

    I wonder how the professor got it so wrong. The history and the Nast cartoons have always been out there.

    By the late 80s and 90s, I guess, some revisionism had begun to appear, along with the idea of whiteness as a hard, more inclusive category.

    My African Studies professors in the 70s and early 80s seemed to be more subtle about these things.

    I could talk about some of my own research for late professor John Blassingame, but that’s another story for another day.

  109. 109
    debbie says:

    @Baud:

    But that’s so pleasant sounding!

  110. 110
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Adam L Silverman: The only application I can see for inserting one’s Irish ancestors into the picture is that at the time of greatest immigration, Ireland was not exactly a garden of earthly delights. To coin a phrase, it was a shithole at that point in time and that meant nothing about the character and abilities of those immigrating just as the fact that their birth nations may be currently experiencing bad times means nothing about the character and abilities of current immigrants.

  111. 111
    Jeffro says:

    I’m trying to watch some football here and I just saw some stupid ad thanking President Trumpov for reshaping the judiciary(??)

    However much it cost, think of the good that could have been done for what that ad cost to produce and air

  112. 112
    debbie says:

    @raven:

    I got the pneumonia vaccine and couldn’t raise my arm for two days. I don’t remember a shot ever hurting that much.

  113. 113
    Patricia Kayden says:

    Maxine Waters and John Lewis are boycotting the SOTU. I can’t imagine why any Black Congressman or woman would choose to sit down and listen to anything that monster has to say.

  114. 114
    debbie says:

    @Chet Murthy:

    …to avoid fulfilling his military service…

    Must be a genetic thing in that family.

  115. 115
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: Contractor or Coastie? Or does he want to be a pirate?

  116. 116
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: He was a squid, on a frigate I think.

  117. 117
    debbie says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    That speech is going to be such a fucking embarrassment.

  118. 118
    raven says:

    @debbie: Yea, I kept swimming but it was a bitch.

  119. 119
    Timurid says:

    @trollhattan:

    She glances over at the pile of disarticulated body parts that used to be Steve Bannon and thinks “Yeah, I’m going to keep my mouth shut.”

  120. 120
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I’m actually quite shocked that Ryan has addressed Trump’s sh*thole comments. He usually acts surprised when confronted with Trump’s misconduct, claims that he hasn’t heard about said misconduct and switches the discussion to tax cuts. I guess now that he has his previous tax cuts, he’s forced to deal with Trump’s outbursts.

  121. 121
    Yarrow says:

    @Baud: In Trump’s case it’s also worth remembering that his mother was an actual immigrant from Scotland. She’d only been in the country a few years when she married his dad. Scotland didn’t send us their best, either.

  122. 122
    TS says:

    @Brachiator:

    Undersecretary of State Steve Goldstein, in charge of U.S. public diplomacy, said Trump has the right to “make whatever remark he chooses,” calling it the benefit of being president.

    Don’t recall anyone saying that about President Obama

  123. 123
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @gorram: Yep. Part of the ongoing problem is Israel is that even after 70 years, there is a heavy justification of bad behavior – state and societal – on the victimization argument.

  124. 124
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @debbie: Yeah. I won’t be watching it but look forward to reading about its outrageousness on blogs like this one. Hope that Trump goes off script and embarrasses the hell out of the GOP — even more so than he already has.

  125. 125
    Brachiator says:

    @gorram:

    : I think this is part of the limitation to doing what Ryan did though, that race wasn’t categorized in the same way then as it is now.

    In some ways it was worse. As I’ve noted, Irish and blacks were both depicted as subhuman by political cartoonists. The article I linked to shows English women as the epitome of beauty and an Irish woman as a grotesque.

    In the 1870s and 1880s, it was considered absurd to think that the Chinese and other “Asiatics” would ever be accepted by white people. This made stuff like the Chinese Exclusion Act easy to accept.

    By the way, there were Canadian versions of Chinese Exclusion Acts, for which that country has offered apologies.

    It’s weird how there is often so much amnesia about the history of racism in this country and elsewhere.

  126. 126
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @Brachiator: So Goldstein would be cool if Trump uses the N or K word to describe Blacks and Jews, right?

  127. 127
    lamh36 says:

    @Gelfling 545: Right, the fellow lab workers who have had the flu this season (in our micro lab, so far, it’s only been the supervisor, who’s husband had diagnosed flu and she began experiencing symptoms soon after), they’ve all been in that 36 hour range, and with a mask, they may have actually been able to work, but why risk infecting more of the workers than you hav eto. Our rate in Core Lab (they have 10+ techs) is one person at a time…so far, we haven’t had multiple people at one time out with the flu.

  128. 128
    scav says:

    Yoikes. There’s predjudice and then there’s some predjudice with serious legal teeth. Apparently even as late as 1922 only “free white persons” and “persons of African nativity or persons of African descent”(after 1870) had the right to even become naturalized American citizens. Ozawa v. United States (1922) and also Naturalization Act of 1906

  129. 129
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @raven: It definitely hurts more thsn the regular one.

  130. 130
    Feathers says:

    @Uncle Ebeneezer: Having ancestors who were discriminated against can either open your eyes to present injustice in a more personal way or it can curdle you soul and leave it indifferent to the suffering of others. In my Irish American life, I’ve seen it go both ways.

    There is also having the experience of being on the receiving end of English anti-Irish bullshit. Lived in Ireland in the early 70s, during the Troubles, heard Brits saying in the TV the sorts of things about me you heard about Blacks at home. My mother pointed out it wasn’t true about me, and it’s not true about them either.

    I really don’t get the attitude of, my ancestors put up with prejudice, so you should just deal with mine. Are you making the argument that your ancestors deserved bad treatment? If their abuse was wrong, how can you perpetuate the cycle into future generations?

  131. 131
    Yarrow says:

    @lamh36: I wash my hands every time I come back home from being out somewhere. I picked up the habit when helping my parents all the time. I know that washing my hands is one of the best ways to keep from germ transmission so I started to do it when I went over to their place. It became habit and I do it at home too.

  132. 132
  133. 133
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Brachiator: Because he wasn’t just focusing on the Nast cartoons. He did a very deep dive looking at how the Irish, while not originally considered white in the colonies and then the US were, however, not considered black. Because there were actual African slaves that were visibly various shades of brown to what was considered black. So they lived in a strange liminal state. Not fully white, but better off than the African slaves. And that within this strange liminality lay the basis for their eventual emergence as white.

  134. 134

    @Patricia Kayden: There’s always Social Security and Medicare cuts, and more tax cuts.

  135. 135
    raven says:

    @Gelfling 545: Reminded me of that Gamma Gobulin we got.

  136. 136
    lamh36 says:

    @Gus_802
    Following Following @Gus_802
    More
    Thanks to Greenwald his bros are going around pulling whataboutism over Trump’s “shithole” comments about Haiti and Africa using Russia as a point of defense.

    @Gus_802
    30m30 minutes ago
    More
    ‘HOW DARE YOU ATTACK TRUMP FOR HIS SHITHOLE COMMENTARY ABOUT HAITI AND AFRICA WHEN YOU MEMBERS OF THE RESISTANCE ARE FULL OF RUSSIOPHOBES THAT ALSO CALL RUSSIA A SHITHOLE YOU ODIOUS AND PERNICIOUS HUBRIS FILLED HYPOCRITES!!11TY’

    https://twitter.com/Gus_802/status/952342520004046848

  137. 137
    debbie says:

    @Patricia Kayden:

    They’ll have to drug him to keep him on script.

  138. 138
    Brachiator says:

    @gorram:

    Adding on to your examples, the Basques are still pretty deeply hated within Spain, but they were among the hacienda owners in Latin America

    The ancient Basque territory overlaps Spain and France, and the Basque people may be separate from the other ancient human groups that immigrated to Europe, even though today they are accepted as just another bunch of white people.

  139. 139
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Jeffro: Judicial Crisis Network. Set up by a Tea Party person to stoke a strong pushback against anyone President Obama nominated to any Federal court. Funded by the usual suspects and then retasked between the election and the inauguration to promote the need to support anyone the President nominates to any Federal court.

  140. 140
    BC in Illinois says:

    I think that the stories of the Irish and the Germans are instructive in showing how arbitrary the definitions of white and white-ness are.

    The Germans discriminated against? Sure. WW I and WW II pretty much eliminated German-speaking communities in the Midwest. Churches surrounded by mobs, pelted with mud. I can give you stories of German-speakers having their phone lines (party-lines) cut. The Lutherans had to go to the Supreme Court against Nebraska, for the right to have church schools teach German.

    On the other hand, the “English Only” people need to read up on how long German-speaking communities lasted in St Louis and southern Illinois and elsewhere. 1840s to the 1940s. My Grandparents came from a German-speaking village of (Austria-) Hungary, to a German-speaking community in Akron, Ohio. There were over 250 German-language newspapers at the time of the Civil War. (All but three of them pro-Union. Abraham Lincoln OWNED the German newspaper of Springfield.)

    But, since the argument of the ethnic ancestors can be spun both ways –“German speakers were targeted as outside the community.” “German speakers were accepted as part of the community.” — it’s important to use this history, not as a reason to belittle the struggles of those oppressed far more vigorously, but as a reason to oppose all racism and bigotry as entirely arbitrary and indefensible.

  141. 141
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @debbie: Try getting the pre-deployment anthrax vaccine series. There’s 7 shots in total spread out over a year. The first one is okay. The second one feels like they’ve left a rock in your arm. The third one feels like they’ve cut your arm open, poured gasoline on it, and then lit it on fire. And from there they start to really hurt!

  142. 142
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: Okay.

  143. 143
    lamh36 says:

    @NBCNews
    Civil rights attorney Frankie Muse Freeman dies at 101 http://nbcnews.to/2msPp1H

    4:10 PM – Jan 13, 2018

  144. 144

    @BC in Illinois: There’s still a German Lutheran church here in Glendale.

  145. 145
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: I faked my shot record when I went to the Nam. I figured I already got all that shit going to Korea.

  146. 146
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Feathers: Everything is about “it builds character” with folks who have those types of attitudes.

  147. 147
    BC in Illinois says:

    @BC in Illinois:
    And, St Louis being St Louis, the German story can be matched with the stories of the Italians, the Irish, the Czechs, the Lebanese, the Chinese, the Poles. Not to mention the Blacks and the Hispanics. This has given us a lot of good restaurants and a magnificent International Festival, but it also makes it doubly sad to see the descendants of immigrants turn against the next group coming in.

  148. 148
    Julia Grey says:

    Instead, Trump blamed the media for distorting his meaning, arguing his description of “shithole” was not racist but rather a straightforward assessment of some nations’ depressed conditions.

    Except, you know, the problem is not actually the word he used to describe the countries in question, but the implication that the people from these shitholes were…shitty.

    Equating a person’s national origin with their relative worth as a potential immigrant (their “merit”) is fing disgusting.

    Implying that people from poor countries (with “depressed conditions”) are less worthy than those from rich ones is just about as bad as implying that blacks are less desirable than whites (which given his choice of countries to ”straightforwardly assess,” he was also saying.)

  149. 149
    Mike in NC says:

    Read where Trump was phoning the usual suspects he calls for advice to weigh in on how his “shithole” comment was being received. It’s both hilarious and pathetic how needy this deplorable man-child is.

  150. 150
    SFAW says:

    @trollhattan:

    I kanna keep up, kiptin!

    So which are you? Scott? Or Chekhov?

  151. 151
    John Revolta says:

    @Adam L Silverman: There weren’t any “Irish” (as we think of them) in the colonies, or damned few. The first bunch over, in the 16 and 17- hundreds were the Scots-Irish (i.e. Protestants) who basically founded the country and never weren’t “white”.
    The Irish Catholics who mainly came over in the 1800’s were the ones who caught all the shit.
    In America, if we can’t hate ya for your color, we’ll hate ya for your religion.

  152. 152
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @jl:

    Germans who emigrated to North America weren’t considered to be really White by the English back then

    I wasn’t considered white until the ’90s because of my German last name. Then the WASPS felt themselves slipping demographically, suddenly it was welcome to the good old boys club and the constant passive aggressive attempts to Anglicize my last name stopped.

  153. 153
    Brachiator says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    The Irish were considered as “the other” on both sides of the Atlantic.

    Animalistic dehumanization was only one of many techniques designed to oppress the Irish and deny them full-human consideration. By considering the Irish as an “other” the English could justify and guiltlessly ignore the repercussions of their oppression and cruelty toward the Irish. Watching the Irish starve during the Great Potato Famine Hunger was one manifestation.
    During the height of the Great Famine, Punch published the English Labourer’s Burden (Feb. 24, 1849) Punch complained on behalf of England’s outlay of ₤50,000 of famine relief given to silence Irish protest and demands for assistance.

    The Irishman is depicted as a gruff simpleton, getting a free ride on the back of an ordinary English laborer. The English government displayed little sympathy or compassion for the Irish or their famine–related predicaments and despair.

    Numerous objections to the Irish proliferated in America as well. Like the English, American Protestants viewed Irish Catholics as “a separate people” (Heuston 82). Irish American historian Timothy Meagher agrees. “The new Irish American was Catholic. Irish Protestants began melting away into the broader Protestant mainstream” making an effort to vehemently distinguish themselves from the Catholic Irish and preferring to define themselves as Scotch-Irish. See Orangeman’s Riots.

    “Most Protestants in America by this time had abandoned the definition of “Irishmen” in order to distance themselves from the Irish Catholic (295). The feeling was mutual.

    Another naked link.

    https://thomasnastcartoons.com/irish-catholic-cartoons/irish-stereotype/

    Obviously, religion was another variable here. And the issue is not to compare the treatment of the Irish to that of slaves.

    But the dehumanization of the Irish and other Europeans was very similar to how blacks were dehuminized. And the discrimination was often similar. The Irish could not always depend on whiteness as any kind of shield.

    The movie Gangs of New York is pretty good at depicting the tensions between the Irish who had been here a while and the new generation of Irish Catholics. The movie just touches on, but does not deeply explore, how whiteness is also defined by a new immigrant group absorbing anti-black bigotry. It is a right of passage. This even extends in the modern day to Republicans like Bobby Jindal.

  154. 154
    BC in Illinois says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    There’s still a German Lutheran church here in Glendale.

    There’s only one church left in St Louis, with a monthly service in German. And then a scattered few German Christmas Eve services. Not like the old days.

  155. 155
  156. 156
    Chet Murthy says:

    @BC in Illinois: Yeah, seeing descendants of Slavs turn into good little Nazis is …. surreal.

  157. 157
    gorram says:

    @Adam L Silverman: True, although there’s a weird way that either a) failing to acknowledge historical antisemitism or b) refusing to do anything about present antisemitism directly feeds into the idea of Israel as a safe place (unlike everywhere else) for Jewish people. There’s nothing really analogous in Irish experience for a lot of reasons, but I think the closest parallel would be the way Irish-background people in the US use the history to avoid discussing the realities of racism both then and now, which is pretty much exactly what Paul Ryan is doing (among others – IIRC, Bill O’Reilly also did this at several points in a really tired and annoying way).

    Come to think of it that’s part of what’s really insidious about what Ryan said. The implication is that people from war-torn and destabilized places not only should be given asylum if not the opportunity to immigrate to the US, but that that’s the *only* solution that merits discussion. It’s one that refuses the recognize the ways at least major parts of the colonization of Ireland have been overturned back there, and that seeking entrance to another place to escape the colonial order didn’t contribute to that (if anything, it facilitated assimilatory practices in the new communities and disrupted them in the old ones).

    Implicit in his response to Trump is a total avoidance of discussing the role of the US, White people generally, etc, in creating the conditions in Haiti, or Central America, or Africa that people want to leave. The only solution it points out to the situation is for them to move or “figure it out on their own” – there’s no admission of responsibility or debt that we owe them, for past and present injustices, or simply as fellow humans.

  158. 158
    Suffragette City says:

    That’s ok. I’ve got a person from Haiti who told me it was perfectly alright for the moron to say he could shoot someone on 5th Ave. because he was boasting and did not specifically name someone; but McCauliff of Virginia saying he would take the moron out is beyond the pale.
    This person did seem upset about s_ hole but didja know the Clinton Foundation is crooked and there is no Russian collusion!
    So now I’m telling them the Take Them Out comment also applies to them.

  159. 159
    raven says:

    @Brachiator: In reading Conroy’s “The Death of Santini” the part about the Chicago Irish family members is brutal. Nasty fucking racists all. Of course, being from Chicago, I knew that.

  160. 160
    Shana says:

    @Matt McIrvin: Boise? I wonder which villager got there first and pulled the others in? My husband’s grandfather settled in Appleton, WI, for unknown reasons and built a small jewish community around him. I think I remember hearing “That was where the horse died” or some such reason.

  161. 161

    @BC in Illinois: The one here in Glendale moved from DTLA in the 80’s since it’s building there was being redeveloped. I’m not sure what percentage of the services are in German, I didn’t even know the church’s history until I was reading about the old building on a LA History blog.

  162. 162
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @BC in Illinois: While it is a historical novel, the third paragraph of the Foreword to The Killer Angels always struck me (emphasis mine):

    Late in June the Army of the Potomac, ever slow to move, turns north at last to begin the great pursuit which will end at Gettysburg. It is a strange new kind of army, a polyglot mass of vastly dissimilar men, fighting for their union. There are strange accents and strange religions and many who do not speak English at all. Nothing like this army has been seen upon the planet. It is a collection of men from many different places who have seen much defeat and many commanders. They are volunteers: last of the great volunteer armies, for the draft is beginning that summer in the North. They have lost faith in their leaders, but not in themselves. They think this will be the last battle, and they are glad that it is to be fought on their home ground. They come up from the South, eighty thousand men, up the narrow roads that converge towards the blue mountains. The country through which they march is some of the most beautiful country in the Union.

    It is the third summer of the war.

  163. 163
    hitchhiker says:

    MLK weekend.

    Ugliest possible American has 24/7 exposure to display his racism and cruelty and stupidity.

    Racism is of course part of our fabric; all of us wear those threads b/c we can’t help it.

    The issue isn’t “Is he racist,” it’s “Why is he so proud of being racist?”

    Today I watched episode 10 of the first season of The Americans — in which a black man who tried to make his life matter gets ruthlessly set up by white people in order to protect their “larger” agenda. I just wept because it’s so beautifully done … and because when I first saw it years ago I — a white person — didn’t understand as much as I do now. And because I’m aware that I still only know a fraction.

  164. 164
    Baud says:

    @Suffragette City: The 27% rule knows no race, color, or nationality.

  165. 165
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @raven: The day I inprocessed for training and to go into pre-deployment isolation with what would become my teammates/team, my ASO took me over to the med shed to get the vaccinations started. I got a flu shot, another MMR (even though they had my vaccination record and because of a square one year at Emory, I’d already had the two as a kid and another as a freshman), one for meningitis, my first shot in the anthrax series, and one or two others.

  166. 166
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Brachiator: And I want to state that I agree with your analysis. I’ve always, however, felt this professor’s thesis was intriguing and that it resonates when you look at racism and the concept of whiteness in the US through the lenses of constructivism.

  167. 167
    raven says:

    @Adam L Silverman: Our shit was a lot easier.

  168. 168
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Brachiator: I actually used the Gangs of New York, the book and then the film once it was out, when I taught the section on racial theories of crime in my previous career teaching criminology. I’m tracking on what you’re saying.

  169. 169
    Chet Murthy says:

    @Brachiator: It’s part of racism, that the ruling group divides the oppressed into parts, and turns each part against the others, fomenting racism as a means of control:

    The movie just touches on, but does not deeply explore, how whiteness is also defined by a new immigrant group absorbing anti-black bigotry. It is a right of passage. This even extends in the modern day to Republicans like Bobby Jindal.

    All racisms work like this. In the Indian caste system,the higher castes oppress those lower-down, and those in turn oppress the even-lower, until you’re to the untouchables, whom everybody oppresses. The middle-castes oppress the lower-down, as -part- of the system of oppression in which they also are trapped.

    And so, in America, you’ll find high-performing brown immigrants (like me, growing up) being racist towards black and hispanic people. We learn it from the upper-class children we wish to emulate, and it’s part of fitting in.

  170. 170
    Brachiator says:

    @raven:

    In reading Conroy’s “The Death of Santini” the part about the Chicago Irish family members is brutal. Nasty fucking racists all. Of course, being from Chicago, I knew that

    There were also hardened ethnic enclaves, especially in Chicago. If you were Hungarian you could expect a beatdown if you wandered into an Irish or German neighborhood.

    A coworker once noted that the Polish sides and Italian sides objected to his parents’ marriage even though everyone was Catholic.

  171. 171
  172. 172
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @hitchhiker: Or why is he so oblivious to being a racist. I’m sure he doesn’t think he’s prejudiced at all.

  173. 173
    jl says:

    @hitchhiker:

    ‘ugliest possible American has 24/7 exposure to display his racism and cruelty and stupidity.’

    It’s almost as if Wolff’s book liberated him.
    He tweets out incompetent nonsense about an important national security bill because he was watching BS on Fox and Friends.
    He goes on a racist bender, pretty much in front of the whole country.
    Get’s busted for adultery with a p R * n start.
    i hope it doesn’t go on from there… but probably will.

  174. 174
    Jeffro says:

    @Adam L Silverman: lovely.

    I like the first amendment so I’ll allow it…until I can think of how to defeat it

  175. 175

    @jl: …and it will only get worse*.

    *My bet is more porn stars.

  176. 176
    trollhattan says:

    @SFAW:
    Scotthov. Still unclear on the uniform color.

  177. 177
    jl says:

    @Adam L Silverman: My theory is that Trump is more of an unconscious (or semi-conscious) bigot variety of racist, rather than a knowing and calculating sort. The former can be as toxic as the latter, though.

    The guy has rationalized so much of the hypocritical BS in other areas of his life, that he has a lot of practice at it.

  178. 178
    jl says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: I didn’t know that word was off the naughty list.

  179. 179
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  181. 181
    Brachiator says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    And I want to state that I agree with your analysis. I’ve always, however, felt this professor’s thesis was intriguing and that it resonates when you look at racism and the concept of whiteness in the US through the lenses of constructivism.

    Thanks. There is a new generation of scholars looking at race from additional perspectives. Too little attention has been paid to free black communities in the North and South, and their experiences with racism.

    Also, for example, a good number of indentured servants in the first years of the United States were black, or more specifically, mixed race. The laws of many states held that the child of a black man, often a slave, and a white woman would be held as an indentured servant until age 21 or 30 and then freed. The mothers were often Irish women who had been servants in white households.

    One thing that came out of this was the myth of pure white womanhood and the complementary myth that a pure white woman would never willingly consort with a Negro. And later this hardened even more into anti-miscegenation laws. But the world in which blacks and other groups clearly mixed was real, even if it was small.

  182. 182
    efgoldman says:

    @Jeffro:

    I just saw some stupid ad thanking President Trumpov for reshaping the judiciary(??)

    Didn’t run here. Good goddamned thing – it’s too late to buy a new TV.

  183. 183
    BC in Illinois says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    . . . polyglot mass of vastly dissimilar men . . . strange accents and strange religions and many who do not speak English at all. . . .from many different places . . .

    I grew up in the 50s and 60s. This was my background picture of America. It seems to me that every WW II movie / TV show had the same mixture in the troops — a kid from a midwestern farm, someone from the hills, a tough guy from the city, sometimes even a rich kid, etc. etc. (the Blacks didn’t show up on the screen until the 60s). Carl Sandburg wrote Chicago poems about people from the farms and the factories and from Tuscany, Ireland, Bohemia, Hungary, and (though using the n-word) included both Black and White.

    I mean — I grew up PRE-Sesame Street, and this was the picture of America I learned. Not homogeneity, but lots of groups. And — from my parents, as well as the changing world of the 60s — a greater and greater consciousness of the injustices that America had to face.

    White America was not, to me, to default setting of America. It seems like such a step backwards to be fighting these fights again.

  184. 184
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    New Rule: no one who identifies as conservative gets to be outraged ever again by anything a Democratic president does or says from now on.

    Republicans lost their shit when Obama put his feet on a desk. Oh, the humanity!//

  185. 185
    Brachiator says:

    @jl:

    My theory is that Trump is more of an unconscious (or semi-conscious) bigot variety of racist, rather than a knowing and calculating sort.

    Unlikely. He and his father had a history of practicing discrimination. He is on record throughout his life as disparaging nonwhite people.

    He openly admires European bigots and nativists.

    He is clearly and deliberately crafting racist immigration laws. How could this possibly be unconscious?

    What does he have to do, attend a lynching?

  186. 186
    jl says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while): But George W put his feet up on the Oval Office desk, in his shirtsleeves, in a very respectful way….

  187. 187
    JPL says:

    @jl: My feeling is that he feels that whites are superior than the others. He is a white supremacist. I wish a reporter would ask him if he thought the contributions of what he perceives are the others, are as valuable as the white man.

  188. 188
    raven says:

    @Brachiator: The great UGA running back Nick Chubb is from this family:

    Chubbtown was founded as a colony of free blacks in 1864 by Henry Chubb, and named after him. Chubbtown provided goods and services to white and black residents of the surrounding areas.

    The community, eventually even serviced by its own post office, was originally composed of a general store, blacksmith shop, grist mill, distillery, syrup mill, saw mill, wagon company, cotton gin, casket (coffin) company and several farms, all owned and operated by the Chubb family.

    The history of the Chubb family in North America dates back at least to 1775. Nicholas Chubb, the oldest known ancestor, is listed a free colored male, head of a household on the 1820 census of Caswell County, North Carolina. While the 1860 Census does not reflect the exact whereabouts of the Chubb family, it would appear that they were already in Floyd County, Georgia. In an undated deed recorded on August 8, 1870, “Henry Chubb and brothers, of town of Cave Spring” conveyed for $200 approximately one acre of land “at Chubbs” to the Trustees of the Methodist Episcopal Church, with “a house now situated on said lot and occupied as a school and a place of religious worship by the colored people.” Henry Chubb, was one of the original trustees of what became Chubb Chapel United Methodist Church. During the Post-Reconstruction period the Chubb brothers continued purchasing real estate to become the self-sufficient community known as Chubbtown. The Chubb family remained and prospered in Floyd County, Georgia, while many southern blacks were seeking prosperity in the north. [2] [3] The town was spared destruction by the Union Army during the Civil War.[4] The family’s prosperity declined after 1916 when a devastating flood destroyed many of the businesses.[5]

  189. 189
    efgoldman says:

    @Brachiator:

    A coworker once noted that the Polish sides and Italian sides objected to his parents’ marriage even though everyone was Catholic.

    Charley Pierce wrote a piece once about Worcester, Ma, where he grew up. There was a square with a Catholioc church on three of the for corners – each for as specific ethnic group.
    Even when mrs efg and i were first married in the lat 70s, there were two large churches less tna a half mile apart. One was very aggressively Irish (and in fact supported the IRA) and the other mostly Italian.

  190. 190
    Chet Murthy says:

    @Brachiator: Two thoughts:

    (1) As you wrote, I was taught that originally, even blacks in America weren’t slaves- — they were indentured. But over time, the institution of slavery developed. Again, consistent with what you write about those laws, and how they died out. B/c ….

    (2) one thing that all institutionalized systems of apartheid share, is a proscription against miscegenation. It can be weak or strong, but it’s there. There’s the story _Too Late the Phalarope_ about that in South Africa. In India (so my mom told me) a high-caste man could marry a lower-caste woman. But manifestly, if a higher-caste woman married a lower-caste man, bad things might happen (even in the 1990s, that could result in a lynching, with the woman’s own family participating). And of course, America had proscriptions, both legal and socially-enforced. Which persist to this day (witness that young black man hanged in NC for consorting with a white woman).

    So over time, those laws had to be introduced. B/c you can’t have the races mixing, or you’ll be unable to maintain the fiction that the lower-down race is subhuman.

    ETA: To that point, I’ve read about lynchings of Italians in New Orleans, but that was regarding a murder. Were Italians/Irish/Eastern-Europeans/etc ever lynched for the crime of paying their attentions to a flower of white womanhood? Just curious. B/c for these racists, it really is their no-go zone. I mean, it’s what defines them, and goes hand-in-hand with their raping black women.

  191. 191
    jl says:

    @Brachiator: We are not top, most terrific, the best and classiest, experts and denial, as is Trump.

  192. 192
    Timurid says:

    @Brachiator:

    attend a lynching?

    Sir, I have 2019 on Line 1…

  193. 193
    hitchhiker says:

    @jl:

    My theory is that Trump is more of an unconscious (or semi-conscious) bigot variety of racist, rather than a knowing and calculating sort.

    Meaning that he operates from a default white-man bias that seems, to him, perfectly reasonable and even fair.

    I think that’s the case, and I think it’s also the case for his most passionate defenders.

    The problem is that they think as long as they’re not participating in lynching or grinning at the idea of it, they’re fine. It’s the same with sexism and sexual assault — by default, women are less worthy, and if you’re not actually raping them at knifepoint, they should quit complaining.

    It’s grotesque.

  194. 194
    Brachiator says:

    @efgoldman:

    For jackals and jackallettes who are swimming in the despair of Orangemandyas, I posted this late last night just as th thread go stomped.

    Great story. I will watch the video later.

    Stuff like this is why black people had to depend on The Green Book to find accommodation when traveling.

  195. 195
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @BC in Illinois: The only way past is through.

  196. 196
    efgoldman says:

    @Brachiator:

    What does he have to do, attend a lynching?

    Hey, he never held the rope.

  197. 197
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Chet Murthy: Yes, there were limited lynchings of ethnic Americans in addition to those of African Americans. Sometimes this was more about them being Catholic than being Irish or Italian or Spanish or Portuguese or Greek or etc. Or about them being Jewish.

  198. 198
    jl says:

    @hitchhiker: I think Trump’s most passionate defenders are racists too.

    Just to be clear, I think unconscious bigot racists are just as bad, and produce as much havoc as knowing and calculating racists.
    Maybe the only difference is that unconscious bigot racists believe, very theoretically, that any person of any color can be equal, if only they would just…. something or other… act right, do the right thing, watch their manners…. reform their culture… which never seems to happen. Usually, the results are the same and equally bad.

    I think many Whites who were taught that racism is bad have to rationalize their bigotry through all sorts of backdoor channels. Humans can rationalize and justify any kind of vicious nonsense, if they need to in order to retain their self-esteem.

  199. 199
    Ruckus says:

    @Yarrow:

    Certainly this president seems unaware of any responsibilities that come with the office.

    Well……He seems to be unaware of any responsibilities that come with just being human in the 21st century so why should we expect him to find them when he suddenly found himself the occupant of the White House.

  200. 200
  201. 201
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Scott Dworkin‏Verified account @ funder
    The word “shithole” is being projected onto Trump’s DC hotel.

  202. 202
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Adam L Silverman: As being pedantic is my hobby, I’d like to point out that the problem isn’t a taste for BDSM. The problem is an unwillingness to get consent. That’s probably what you meant by “a violent one,” but since there’s actually consensually violent BDSM,* I think it should be clear. Stipulated that the disregard for consent is rarely, if ever, a single occurrence, and given his age it’s unlikely to have been the first instance.

    * I should specify that it’s not my kink, so I can’t corroborate that assertion, but I’ve been told that’s the case.

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    JPL says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Nice.. Since I’m greedy what about Mar a lago

  204. 204
    dnfree says:

    @Adam L Silverman: There’s an African-American historical presenter in our town who talks about how the blacks and the Italians used to live together on the east side of town. And then about forty years ago, the Italians magically became white people and moved to the west side.

  205. 205
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: Correct. I apologize for the shorthand. But I’m not sure his violence is connected to his kink. The violence that has been reported, smacking the woman he was cheating with, in order to scare her reads like what all violent abusers do.

  206. 206
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @jl:

    My theory is that Trump is more of an unconscious (or semi-conscious) bigot variety of racist, rather than a knowing and calculating sort.

    Your theory is horseshit. Go read about the Central Park Five.

  207. 207
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @dnfree: Yep.

  208. 208
    JPL says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Yup.. Trump is a white supremacist and can’t stand the fact that the previous president was better than him..

    How’s the wife?

  209. 209
    Chet Murthy says:

    @Gin & Tonic: [seconding G&T] Read about the conspiracy to discriminate against african-american renters, that he & his father ran when he was young. He was an integral part of that conspiracy.

  210. 210
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @JPL: A little better, thanks. May be discharged tomorrow. I’m a little too tired to go into a lot of details.

  211. 211
    Adria McDowell says:

    All this talk of the Borscht Belt and anthrax shots is making me nostalgic (the Borscht Belt) and flashbacks (anthrax shots).

    Grossinger’s! Haven’t heard that name in forever! I grew up near the Nevele.

  212. 212
    J R in WV says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Well and eloquently said, my dear … Don’t allow EFG to upset your ladyship!!

    Trump is a shit-hole, we can tell when he opens his mouth!

  213. 213
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Adria McDowell: Ellenville? Wurtsboro?

  214. 214
    Timurid says:

    @Chet Murthy:

    But the President didn’t attend that one. That we know of…

  215. 215
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Gin & Tonic: How is Mrs. G&T? You’ve both been in my thoughts today.

    @JPL: Please! Does the universe love us that much? No doubt too much SS presence there.

    @Adam L Silverman: Yup. Consistent with violent abusers, who are (very nearly) always serial offenders.

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  217. 217
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    Did anyone else see this? WH Press Secretary calls The Wall Street Journal FAKE NEWS.

  218. 218
    Calouste says:

    I hope some enterprising journalist realizes that there could be a very interesting story in calling up a number of pron stars and asking them if they have an NDA with shitehole pu$$ygrabber.

  219. 219
    Brachiator says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho:

    I guess that just leaves Fox News and the National Enquirer.

    And Trump’s Twitter messages.

  220. 220
    Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho says:

    @Brachiator: Don’t forget InfoWars and RT. But mostly Twitler in Chief.

  221. 221
    J R in WV says:

    @Adam L Silverman:

    And yet he is apparently a sadistic, violent bastard – whocouldanode?

    Some people belong in war zones and not in public service back home in peaceful lands? I dunno. Too complicated, huh? Orwell and Kipling talked about violent men who broke heads so that our heads could rest easy, I understand that.

    But this guy, he’s still breaking trust after the breaking heads mission ended.

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    SgrAstar says:

    @hitchhiker: ????!!!!!! The propagator of birtherism, the persecutor of the Central Park Five…that guy is fully conscious of and fully engaged with racist ideology. No question.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Alternative Fax, a hip hop artist from Idaho: I, for one, won’t judge you.

  224. 224
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @jl: Really? So attacking the first African American President’s legitimacy is not intentional or conscious? Trump is a straight up racist. There is no reason to excuse the intentionality of his racism.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @jl:

    My theory is that Trump is more of an unconscious (or semi-conscious) bigot variety of racist, rather than a knowing and calculating sort.

    Yeah, no. He was an OG Birther. That means straight-up racist. No water, no ice.

  226. 226
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    sigh

    I was hoping for an upset in this game, both because I like upsets, and I don’t want Kraft to get another ring. I suppose most NFL owners are rightwing douchebags but this one actually considers trump a friend

  227. 227
    J R in WV says:

    Hey, something for folks to think about.

    Long term commenter CarolDuhart2 recently ran into a collision between her retirement plans and her health after a heart attack.

    So there’s a go fund me for her, with more details there. If you can help out, post it on social media sites, maybe that would help. This is my social media!

    Thanks!

  228. 228
    Kay says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    You should see the Yelp reviews:

    It’s a real shithole. The residents of the building are bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.

    I wanted to like this place, I really did.
    But it’s just too much of a shithole.

    They’re having a ball with this.

  229. 229
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Baud: sí, eso es verdad

    Now a days I hesitate to speak in a foreign language, especially Spanish, as it generates economic anxiety.

  230. 230
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @J R in WV: Thank you for posting this. It does make it hard to contribute anonymously. That annoys me.

  231. 231
    frosty says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: You should have grown up in PA then. After I left I flipped through my HS yearbook and was amazed at how many Heidelbaughs, Deardorffs, Kleindiensts, Dellingers, etc. there were. German names were just part of the normal landscape.

  232. 232
    Lizzy L says:

    @J R in WV: Done. Thank you for letting us know.

  233. 233
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Kay: And you continue to say that everything is going to shit. And no one is doing anything about it. Here is someone who is doing something. Have hope.

  234. 234
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @frosty: He is full of shit.

  235. 235
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Brachiator:

    On “Finding Your Roots,” Wanda Sykes found out that her family was Free Black dating back to the 1700s because her great-great ancestor was the child of a female Irish indentured servant and a male African slave, and slavery was transmitted through the mother.

  236. 236
    Brachiator says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    On “Finding Your Roots,” Wanda Sykes found out that her family was Free Black dating back to the 1700s because her great-great ancestor was the child of a female Irish indentured servant and a male African slave.

    Very interesting. I’d love to see that episode.

  237. 237
    satby says:

    @J R in WV: thanks to you and Scott earlier for highlighting that. I hope all of us can help CarolD through this bad patch.

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    satby says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: yeah, I never see the option to be anonymous either.

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    Adria McDowell says:

    @Gin & Tonic: Ellenville.

  240. 240
    The Moar You Know says:

    That Trump uses the defense that “I’m just saying what everyone is thinking” is appalling, even if it was true, because the fucking President of the United States is not supposed to say shit like that. Virtually every nation that he’s just insulted are allies and host American military bases. He is a fucking idiot and has caused direct, measurable harm to this nation by his words and actions, the kind of damage that can not be fixed in days, weeks or even years.

    He’s unfit to hold his office. And how we solve the problem of the people who voted for him, the people who would put someone just as awful and worse if possible into the office again with no hesitation is a question that fills me so full of despair that I try consciously to not think about it. But it is a problem that is going to have to be solved.

  241. 241

    I look forward to the video of Trump standing in the middle of 5th Avenue and shooting someone.

  242. 242
    NotMax says:

    @Adria McDowell

    Another name as associated with the area as any of the resorts, which you probably haven’t heard or thought of in ages: Red Apple Rest.

  243. 243
    Daddio7 says:

    @Brachiator: What majority white countries would you not want to live in? Yeh, I know, the US. Any non white countries on your list? How about mostly white verses non-white cities? How about neighborhoods? None? Really?

  244. 244
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Daddio7:
    Japan is nice. So is the ROK. South Africa ain’t half bad as far as I’ve heard. There are plenty of non-white nations that are just fine. You fail to comprehend that a lot of majority white nations are still benefiting from their imperialist pasts.
    Russia is majority white, yet I wouldn’t want to live there. Or Poland atm. Or Belarus.

    So put that in your pipe and fuck off, Daddio.

  245. 245
    Achrachno says:

    @Daddio7: Did you come here to demonstrate that Trump supporters are racist idiots?

  246. 246
    fuckwit says:

    @The Moar You Know: It’s worse. In a totalitarian dictatorship, the President can say whatever the fuck he wants because the state is him. In a Democracy, the President is a *public servant*, who was elected to *represent* the people. He or she is supposed to say and do what the people want, and speak for us. What’s horrific is that this shit-for-brains is acting like he’s just a private citizen speaking his 1st Amendment rights, but he’s not, he is supposed to serve us, and he is speaking for us… and we don’t agree with what he’s saying.

    Are there ignorant white assholes who think just like him? Yes, tons! Enough to vote for this fuckhead in enough states to get him into the presidency. But he’s not supposed to represent just them, he’s supposed to represent all of us, and speak for all of us.

    Richy McRich Heir has no clue that he’s just taken on a service job, and doing it completely wrong.

  247. 247
    AnotherBruce says:

    @trollhattan: Maybe we should go fund her.

  248. 248
    No One You Know says:

    @Chet Murthy: Says quite a lot about the woman’s legal stature. Upthread I noticed a similar observation about the status of a White woman’s child by a non-white father.

    Last week a friend cried on my shoulder about how her in-laws treat her, seven years after marriage to a white man and having his child.

    Words fail me. I feel that I’ve really been living in a bubble.

  249. 249
    TriassicSands says:

    @BruceFromOhio:

    Yeah, but the video of Ryan explaining that Trump murdering someone is “unfortunate” would be even better.

  250. 250
    Jeff Boatright says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    I wonder how these types of NDA’s would test out in court?

    Exactly my question. Should NDAs apply to elected officials? Should they apply to people running for office? In theory, laws exist for the betterment of society. Society is not served by laws that protect sociopaths from their previous actions becoming known prior to election.

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  252. 252
    ixnay says:

    This is why I always ask for vaccines in the butt. I do spay/neuter surgery for a living, and cannot afford to have an arm out of commission

  253. 253
    LanceThruster says:

    Fair piece on Clinton’s and Haiti.

Comments are closed.