Outed: The Originator Of The “Shitty Media Men” List

In October, a Google spreadsheet entitled “Shitty Media Men” was posted. The idea was for women to be able to post their experiences of sexual harassment by media men. The list took off, but the originator became concerned about the potential trouble it could bring her and others and pulled it after a day or so. Of course, nothing on the internet is completely gone.

The list was an outgrowth of the informal networks women have had to warn each other about harassers and a response to the revelations about Harvey Weinstein. The originator did not reveal her name. Yesterday Moira Donegan came out in an article in “The Cut.” Apparently there was quite a bit on the list, although I haven’t seen it.

Her coming out was in response to a planned article in Harper’s Magazine by Katie Roiphe. Roiphe made her name by arguing for the status quo in sexual harassment back in the 1990s. She doesn’t seem to have changed her mind much.

As word spread of the Harper’s article, Nicole Cliffe, editor of the now-defunct “The Toast” (which had some great interpretations of famous paintings and other good stuff), said she would pay writers who might have articles lined up at Harper’s for their articles if they would pull them. Apparently some have.

Roiphe said that she did not know the name of the list originator, but Donegan says that a Harper’s fact-checker called her to ask if she was the one.

The New York Times has a long article with more details. It’s worth reading that and Donegan’s article before exploding in outrage one way or another. Roiphe’s article, undoubtedly undergoing massive revision, is scheduled for the March Harper’s.


The Times revelations about Weinstein opened up a can of worms. It’s about time that these genteelly protected rapists and harassers were outed. But it’s still not clear that it’s safe for women to do, hence the protection of their identities. The change in expectations is very sudden, although I’m sure that academics will be tracing a long history of attempts to end the acceptance of this mistreatment that have failed. Roiphe began her rearguard actions in the early 1990s.

It’s hard for men to process this, and a great many have taken advantage of their societal protection. The anonymity can be abused, but that is also an excuse that has been used to ignore the calls for help. Let’s see how Donegan is treated.


111 replies
  1. 1
    Scott S. says:

    Any respectable publication should be ashamed of publishing anything by Roiphe. I’m astounded she’s not already been banished to Wingnut Daily.

  2. 2

    Headline from that NYT article I linked.

  3. 3

    Brianna Wu (reformatted for posting here; to see the original, look on Twitter):

    Rumor is, a traditional print magazine is about to out the woman that created the “Shitty Media Men” list, which would be beyond unethical. If they do this, I want to tell you everything that will happen to her. I’m certain because it all happened to me. (1) She will get death threats to the point she will have to leave her home. (2) Same with rape threats. (3) Everything she’s ever done in her career will be poured over in attempt to get her fired. (4) Her family will be threatened. If she has kids, they’ll be threatened too. Worst of all, this will NEVER END for her. Gamergate was almost four years ago, and I’m still dealing with it. It is journalistically indefensible to put her in danger. There is no public interest. You will end up a cautionary tale in a journalism textbook if you publish. – https://twitter.com/Spacekatgal/status/950830861200580610

  4. 4
    Lit3Bolt says:

    Let’s ignore the conservative propaganda outlet the NYT please.

  5. 5
    Msb says:

    Extrapolating from Gamergate, etc., I predict Donegan will be treated very badly. Would love to be wrong about this.

  6. 6
    cosima says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: OMFG with that headline. FTFNYT needs to be shamed and dragged and pilloried for that abusive headline, implying that a twitter campaign meant to protect the author of the list is purely a feminist issue, and equating feminist with hostile/aggressive vs Katie Roiphe.

    I have said it before here, but it bears repeating for those raising girls, even if not as a parent, but as an aunt/uncle/grandparent/etc — the number one job that I have as a mother is raising an empowered daughter. A daughter who will not accept being marginalised, and demand equal pay and respect in all areas of life when she is on her own. A daughter who will not accept being viewed as a sex object, who will believe in her inherent worth regardless of what society in general, &/or men/women specifically, tell her. If girls do not learn that at home it is near-impossible for them to learn it otherwise. My mother never discussed any of that sort of thing with me, which is why it took me 30+ years to get over those hurdles on my own account. I discuss those things endlessly with both my girls, even our oldest, 27 and living a continent away from us. A couple of days ago Little Cosima (13 in a couple of months) asked me ‘what does feminist mean?’ — we talk about everything.

    Society has a long way to go yet, but I think we are at least heading in the right direction on the issue of objectifying women, and normalising abusive &/or harassing behaviour. I was raised by a mother who valued beauty, her own and mine, and there was little about myself that I valued more than that for a very long time. I can be different as a parent, I am different as a parent. I like to think that I am not in the minority. But the parenting/attitude gains that are being made in my generation are probably being offset by the proliferation of social media platforms that enable the behaviours & attitudes that I am trying to protect my daughter from. Could be that I am Sisyphus. Time will tell. Our oldest daughter is a might feminist warrior, so I am hopeful.

  7. 7
    Bobby Thomson says:

    I think Harper’s was going to blink and this could expose other women after she is sued. I fear for her.

    This did allow her to tell her own story in the way she wanted to tell it, though, and to defend what she did. That maybe could have been accomplished with an anonymous Q&A, but maybe not. What’s done is done.

  8. 8
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:
    That title is exactly something that I would see printed in a rag like the Daily Caller or Breitbart:

    “Evil Feminazis Want to Ban All Men from Existence!: Anita Sarkeesian Seeks to Remake the Universe in Her Own Image by Triggering a Vacuum Metastability Event!”
    Or something equally ridiculous.

  9. 9
    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Lit3Bolt: this.

  10. 10
    MomSense says:

    Wonder if this guy was on the list.

    shock collar

  11. 11
    germy says:

    FTFNYT is simply horrible at everything. I’ve seen it argued that “ok, lots of their political reporting sucks, but they’ll still good at x, y, z” (maybe book reviews, arts, etc.)

    After the Golden Globes awards, they ran a photo of Norman Lear with (according to the caption) an unnamed “guest.”

    The guest they didn’t recognize was Rita Moreno.

    They really suck at everything, not just their Maggie Haberman shit.

  12. 12
    germy says:

    Paul Krugman is good. And Charles Blow. I can’t think of anyone else.

  13. 13
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:

    I think the entire 2016 election season and everything that has come out since then – #MeToo etc. has shown how everyone has underestimated the volume of mediocre white male fragility.

  14. 14
    Betty Cracker says:

    @MomSense: And it bears repeating: Sexist pigs like Achenbach, Thrush, Wieseltier, Rose, Lauer, Sullivan, etc., created the media lens through which the electorate viewed Hillary Clinton. It’s a wonder she won the popular vote.

  15. 15
    Cermet says:

    Freud’s first attempt to explain why so many of his woman patients had just huge mental health issues was that they had been sexually abused when they were children (This is around 1915 – 20!) The firestorm in his profession made him do a 180 and he, instead, came up with the ridiculous bull shit ID nonsense that was dogma for many years. Now convenient that was – even made him a household name.

  16. 16
    Betty Cracker says:

    @germy: I canceled my NYT subscription during the campaign because on balance, the NYT does so much more harm than good, IMO. But the paper does produce some solid and important reporting.

  17. 17
    MomSense says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    I think we were all screaming mad about the coverage because we all know how broken our culture is when it comes to women. I don’t think we realized just how disgusting and abusive the actual media personalities were. I think we also now know why these media outlets weren’t running stories about Clinton’s enthusiastic supporters. We are probably too old and icky for those sexist pigs.

  18. 18
    Cheap Jim, formerly known as Cheap Jim says:

    @germy: Charlie Savage

  19. 19
  20. 20
    bystander says:

    I did enjoy reading that Fox has fired James Rosen, its chief DC correspondent, for harassment.

    I also severed the FNYT after the election. I don’t regret it at all.

  21. 21
    Uncle Ebeneezer says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne: And the extent to which, just about everything in our society is designed to violently defend it at all costs. I’d say the same for White Fragility (all genders) in general as well (see: countless Trump voter apologetics articles), but yeah the “Male” part has been especially clear recently.

  22. 22
    the Conster, la Citoyenne says:


    Amy Siskind says the Democrats should invite all Trump’s victims to the SOTU. It’s a great idea and payback for that debate where they brought Bill Clinton’s accusers to humiliate HRC.

  23. 23
    matt says:

    @germy: it seems like the rest of them treat Krugman like shit.

  24. 24
    germy says:


    it seems like the rest of them treat Krugman like shit.

    I didn’t know that. Why am I not surprised?

  25. 25

    @Betty Cracker: yeah, it’s a lot more than its mostly-garbage oped page and often-GOP-slanted political coverage.

    And the crossword puzzles!

  26. 26
    Adria McDowell says:

    The Grey Lady has sucked for quite some time (minus Krugman and Blow, of course).

    Oh, and fuck Katie Roiphe.

  27. 27
    libarbarian says:

    The New York Times has a long article with more details. It’s worth reading that and Donegan’s article before exploding in outrage one way or another.

    Fuck that shit!
    This is the internet.
    I will NOT wait to be OUTRAGED!!!

  28. 28
    O. Felix Culpa says:


    I think we also now know why these media outlets weren’t running stories about Clinton’s enthusiastic supporters.

    And, curiously, they still aren’t running those stories. Just Cletus safaris, over and over and over again.

  29. 29
    MomSense says:

    @the Conster, la Citoyenne:

    I just hope the women don’t feel too pressured. That would be an incredibly difficult spectacle to endure.

  30. 30
    rikyrah says:

    The cover of @TheEconomist. pic.twitter.com/HSXqbBjV5e

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) January 11, 2018

    The new cover of @TIME. pic.twitter.com/EoCjcatYFZ

    — Kyle Griffin (@kylegriffin1) January 11, 2018

  31. 31
    MomSense says:

    @O. Felix Culpa:

    We are the people who buy shit so it’s really stupid to ignore us.

  32. 32

    Despite the outward polish and respectability there is so much that is rotten to the core in our institutions, from elite media to one of our two political parties. Last election has dragged a lot of skeletons out in the open.

  33. 33
    libarbarian says:

    Drop Moon Rocks on all of them!!!

  34. 34

    @MomSense: If you are not an R, you are invisible to the political media in this country.

  35. 35
    Tenar Arha says:

    @Betty Cracker: I’ve been thinking about it.

    There’s a part of me that is now “The NYT is GARBAGE” every time they f*ck Up. But there’s another part that really thinks they could be better. Which really explains why the part that now defaults to “GARBAGE” is so angry. Because I don’t want this deep pocketed paper to disappear, I want them to RECKON with what they’ve done, and until they do that, it’s “NOPE you’re still GARBAGE.”

  36. 36
    rikyrah says:

    Earlier thread on the selection of Kehinde Wiley and Amy Sherald to paint official portraits of President and Mrs Obama. The official unveiling is February 12 at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington. https://t.co/0xfGheZWVe

    — meta (@metaquest) January 11, 2018

    Portraits unveiled at an invitation-only ceremony at National Portrait Gallery. Painting of Michelle Obama goes on display in the Recent Acquisitions corridor through early November. Portrait of Pres Obama will become part of the permanent collection.

    — meta (@metaquest) January 11, 2018

  37. 37
    MomSense says:


    R from Wall Street is even more important to them.

  38. 38

    NYT also sucks when they review Hindi movies, their reviewer, sometimes doesn’t even know the basic facts about the people she is writing about, Rachel Saltz, is her name IIRC. Their coverage of Wall Street (financial markets) is pretty shitty too, I am looking at you Sorkin and Davidson. So they suck at politics but are great otherwise is not really the case.

  39. 39

    @MomSense: True. I have never seen WWC that votes D from Vt or MA covered in any of the national news outlets.

  40. 40
    Kay says:


    Despite the outward polish and respectability there is so much that is rotten to the core in our institutions

    Agreed. That’s why I get so impatient with “the unwashed masses are so terrible and dumb and they would be better if they were educated”.

    Yeah, maybe not. Many of our elites are sort of low quality too and they had every advantage. We may need a top to bottom revamp. If there’s a silver lining to all this it may be everyone questioning everything- ALL the narratives.

  41. 41

    @schrodingers_cat: yeah our institutions have really turned out to be a lot shittier than I thought they were. (I guess i’d blocked out a lot of the Bush years.)

  42. 42

    @Kay: as an elitist I’m personally offended by how shitty our elites are!

  43. 43
    Barbara says:

    @Scott S.: Why do people keep hiring Roiphe? Because in her own way, Roiphe is like all those women working at Fox News who have such sterling educational credentials. They reassure all the boys in the room that there are really attractive and smart women who might growl but never bite and at the end of the day, make them feel good about themselves and their privileged role in the world. Having a well-financed and well-connected author for a parent also never hurt any aspiring writer. Just ask Caitlin Flanagan and Maggie Haberman.

    “Roiphe grew up in New York City, daughter of psychoanalyst Herman Roiphe and noted feminist Anne Roiphe. She attended the all-female Brearley School, received a B.A. from Harvard University/Radcliffe College in 1990, and received a Ph.D. in English Literature from Princeton University in 1996.”

    And who is Anne Roiphe?

    Anne Roiphe (born December 25, 1935) is an American writer and journalist. She is best known as a first-generation feminist, and author of the novel Up The Sandbox (1970), which was filmed as a starring vehicle for Barbra Streisand in 1972.[1] In 1996, Salon called the book “a feminist classic.”[2]

    Roiphe has since published seven novels and two memoirs, while contributing essays and reviews to The New York Times, The New York Times Magazine, New York Magazine, and others. In 1993, The New York Times described her as “a writer who has never toed a party line, feminist or otherwise.”[4] Her 1996 memoir Fruitful: A memoir of Modem Motherhood was nominated for the National Book Award.[5]

    From 1997 to 2002, she served as a columnist for The New York Observer. Her memoir Epilogue was published in 2008, and another memoir, Art and Madness, in 2011. Her most recent book, Ballad of the Black and Blue Mind, was published by Seven Stories Press in May 2015,[6] and received starred reviews from Publishers Weekly [7] and BookList.[8]

  44. 44
    rikyrah says:

    We warned about this: @HouseGOP passes massive tax cuts for corporations… Pfizer responds by ending research into Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s, laying off researchers, and buying back billions of dollars’ worth of shares. https://t.co/Id9Byjx7a3 #GOPTaxScam

    — Rep. Pramila Jayapal (@RepJayapal) January 10, 2018

  45. 45
    Amir Khalid says:

    There’s also Gail Collins, by far The NYT’s funniest columnist, who famously called den Scheißgibbon a “thousandaire”. Trump is still mad at her for that.

  46. 46
    rikyrah says:

    BREAKING: Trump has officially ended Medicaid as we know it, by allowing states to take health insurance away from people who can’t find a job.

    (Please RT to spread the word.) 1/ pic.twitter.com/bXM6wLUxEq

    — Rebecca Vallas (@rebeccavallas) January 11, 2018

  47. 47
    rikyrah says:

    PRESIDENT of the 15th largest private corporation in America (@PilotFlyingJ ) openly called African Americans “greasy niggers” in front of sales team.

    They then sang this racist song, called “Nigger Lover” together DURING A COMPANY MEETING of execs

    MORE: https://t.co/p4rXcQOxoz pic.twitter.com/GgrNSHCLJd

    — Shaun King (@ShaunKing) January 11, 2018

  48. 48
    rikyrah says:

    Insane. @realDonaldTrump willing to end NSA/FBI surveillance to find Terrorists & Spies in the USA?Is he hiding something so serious he would rather destroy US counterintelligence? https://t.co/xbjjmzaIsB

    — Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) January 11, 2018

    This is the single most dangerous and irresponsible thing the President has ever tweeted.l, without hyperbole. https://t.co/ezQNvCzjoW

    — Susan Hennessey (@Susan_Hennessey) January 11, 2018

  49. 49
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Tenar Arha: Yes — the paper is important enough to warrant anger at their shitty political coverage, which has been crap for many years now. The NYT matters because it’s influential and relatively deep-pocketed, as you said. Also, they still produce vital stories, despite people like Baquet and Haberman.

    For example, the NYT broke the story about Papadopoulos drunkenly bragging to the Australian ambassador to the UK about the Russians having “dirt” on Clinton. The Trump admin, GOP congress, Fox News, etc., were more or less successfully weaving a narrative in which the Steele dossier triggered the FBI investigation into the Trump campaign until the NYT blew the lid off that story.

  50. 50
    No Drought No More says:

    Let’s see how Donnegan is treated if she’s got it wrong with even one male who isn’t what she claims him to be.

  51. 51
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    But FTFNYT, right?

    Haven’t you heard? The NYT is all in for Trump!!!

  52. 52
    rikyrah says:

    Block of conflicted Trump U.S. attorney pick likely to hold
    Senator Kirsten Gillibrand’s block on a Donald Trump nominee to be U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York appears likely to hold, Rachel Maddow reports. The nominee, Geoffrey Berman is previously of Deutsche Bank, where Trump-related dealings are being investigated.

  53. 53
    rikyrah says:

    Trump fails to protect US from future Russian attacks
    Senator Ben Cardin talks with Rachel Maddow about how Donald Trump has dithered while other countries have taken measures to thwart future efforts by Russia to interfere in their politics

  54. 54

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yes — the paper is important enough to warrant anger at their shitty political coverage, which has been crap for many years now.

    This is exactly why I get mad when they produce garbage and when people dismiss the entire publication as garbage. They can do better and we deserve a better flagship (perhaps we don’t, “we get the media we deserve” Brooke Gladstone says, but we ought to do better). I don’t get mad when people say that about Fox or the WSJ.

  55. 55
    rikyrah says:

    Fusion GPS still researching Donald Trump ties to Russia
    Rachel Maddow points out that while the Trump dossier is everything Christopher Steele produced for Fusion GPS for that “particular engagement” but Fusion GPS is still researching Donald Trump’s ties to Russia and Steele may be involved as well.

  56. 56
    rikyrah says:

    Public interest in dossier has been validated: Buzzfeed
    Ben Smith, editor-in-chief of Buzzfeed, talks with Rachel Maddow about the decision to publish the Trump dossier a year ago, and the legal entanglements that have followed.

  57. 57
    kindness says:

    The NY Times skews it’s reporting on purpose. It purposefully chose to suggest Hillary was a Manchurian Candidate from the bowels of hell and that Donald was a wily billionaire.

    Fuck the FSM damned NY Times. I got a digital subscription to the Wa Po because even though they have awful boot lickers, they have significanlty less fluffers of conservatives than the NY Times.

    Hell isn’t a good enough place for the media that has led this nation to where it is now.

  58. 58


    The NY Times skews it’s reporting on purpose. It purposefully chose to suggest Hillary was a Manchurian Candidate from the bowels of hell and that Donald was a wily billionaire.

    Frontline did the same thing in its special on the candidates a week before the elections.

  59. 59
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @No Drought No More: Not her claims. She set up a Google Docs thing to allow others to report men who had harassed/accused/raped them.

    She’s no more responsible for the other women’s claims than Facebook is for your crazy uncle’s fake news.

    Regardless, she’s going to be treated just like Brianna Wu and Zoe Quinn and Anna Sarkeesian.

  60. 60

    @Barbara: Just how many nepotism hires populate our elite media. Was Halperin’s father a journalist too?

  61. 61
    Duane says:

    Speaking of shitty men, Missouri Gov. Eric Greitens has admitted cheating on his wife in 2015. He’s been accused of blackmailing the woman he was involved with to keep her silent.
    Greiten’s an evil moron. He’s looked at Kansas and said,” That worked well. We should do that, too.” I so hope this ends his political career. Or any career. Hike the Ozark Mountains much, Governor?

  62. 62
    Barbara says:

    @Duane: This sounds like a redux of the Governor of Alabama, although perhaps before he was elected. Do you foresee any actual consequences?

  63. 63
    rp says:

    The FISA bill could use a front page post. I thought this Greenwald tweet about it was particularly insane:

    10m10 minutes ago
    Trump’s moronic, inconsistent tweets will dominate the FISA storyline today – it’s fun and easy – but much more significant is the key role leading Dems are playing in handing Trump (someone they claim is a lawless tyrant) vast, virtually unlimited domestic spying powers.

    Even if you don’t like the law, it’s incredibly dishonest to frame it as “handing Trump” power or to put the majority of the blame on Dems. Greenwald has become indistinguishable from most rightwingers: his philosophy is the opposite of what liberals want today, updated daily.

  64. 64
    Milo says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: That’s true, except I will fucking never stop holding Facebook accountable for what they did.

  65. 65
    Mathguy says:

    OT, but extremely funny if you haven’t seen it. The ultimate conspiracy story:


  66. 66

    I’ll join Betty Cracker and Major Major Major Major. The New York Times drives news coverage, and it often does a good job. I link only to the articles I feel are among the good ones.

    I will never forgive them, though, for their coverage of Saddam Hussein’s aluminum tubes and of Wen Ho Lee. The most immediate offense that they need to clear up is their “Halloween Special” from 2016, saying the FBI has no problem with Donald Trump, move along, nothing to see here. They eventually did limited mea culpas on the aluminum tubes and Wen Ho Lee. They’re still being defensive about the Halloween Special.

  67. 67
    Aleta says:

    Michael Socolow

    I believe Moira Donegan’s version & I believe Katie Roiphe lied to the @nytimes & to the public about what she did. The ethical malfeasance here is incredible. Read @spj_tweets Code of Ethics to understand how profound this breach is.

    Madison Malone Kircher
    Left is Moira Donegan’s account. Right is what Katie Roiphe told the Times went down regarding the shitty media men list piece.

    (This doesn’t copy, but you can read it on her twi. account.)

  68. 68
    Duane says:

    @Barbara: Consequences? Sadly, no. IOKIYAR. He’s a Republican. God will forgive him, all will be well and the fascist will continue his efforts to decimate our state.

  69. 69

    This is good, from a friend of mine.

  70. 70

    @Cheryl Rofer: All its “mistakes” help one party.
    When Obama was President everything was his fault, now that we have an R president even his own actions are not his fault.
    Deficits were the most important thing in 2009 when we were recovering from the market crash but now that Rs have made sure that there will be deficits till the end of time because of their tax cut, NYT is mum about it.
    They flogged the emails story to death while the R candidate got a free pass, he was in their back yard for crying out loud. They chose not to report. There are fascist enablers, trust them at your own peril.

  71. 71

    @Aleta: Here you go.

  72. 72
    Lyrebird says:

    @rikyrah: Thanks. Also from Kyle Griffin,

    More than 100 corporate leaders are calling on Congress to pass legislation by Janurary 19 to protect the status of DREAMers.

    Here is the letter itself. It’s amazing. Companies on there that I love, companies on there that I hate, including Verizon, who’s hosting the public version of the letter.


  73. 73
    🌷 Martin says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    “Evil Feminazis Want to Ban All Men from Existence!: Anita Sarkeesian Seeks to Remake the Universe in Her Own Image by Triggering a Vacuum Metastability Event!”

    Breitbart doesn’t use ‘feminazis’. They think Nazis are the good guys.

    For the record, I’m 1000% behind Donegan here. She’s got guts. The shitstorm about to descend on her I can’t even imagine, and is something I wouldn’t face as a white male under any circumstance.

  74. 74
    HeleninEire says:

    @germy: I just looked at the picture. DAMN, she looks good at 86!

  75. 75
    rikyrah says:

    Trump wants GOP allies to ‘take control’ of Russia scandal probe
    01/11/18 08:00 AM
    By Steve Benen
    We recently learned that Donald Trump, feeling the heat as the Russia scandal was intensifying last summer, personally urged Republican lawmakers to end congressional scrutiny of the controversy. The president’s lobbying campaign targeted, among others, the Senate majority leader and chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.

    As we discussed at the time, when Congress is investigating a scandal involving the president, the president isn’t supposed to call lawmakers to pressure them to stop.

    Yesterday, however, as Politico noted, Trump took his lobbying campaign in a more public direction.

    President Donald Trump on Wednesday urged Republicans in Congress to “take control” of the investigations into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election, prompting some head-scratching from a top GOP investigator on Capitol Hill.

    “The single greatest Witch Hunt in American history continues,” Trump tweeted Wednesday morning. “There was no collusion, everybody including the Dems knows there was no collusion, & yet on and on it goes. Russia & the world is laughing at the stupidity they are witnessing. Republicans should finally take control!”

  76. 76
    Mnemosyne says:

    OT, but I should have brought an extra sweater to jury duty. Ugh. Hopefully I won’t be here more than a day.

  77. 77
    🌷 Martin says:

    @Lyrebird: A lot of California on that list. California isn’t afraid of immigrants. We got over that in the 90s.

  78. 78
    Aleta says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Similar to what your friend points out:

    sarah jeong

    While working on certain stories in the past few months, I have heard over and over again the belief that the system has and will continue to fail women, that it is futile to go to police or to take an attacker to court.

    My sources were in consensus, even across continents: there is no rule of law when it comes to violence against women. The various choices they made happened in a void where law, order, responsibility, or accountability had all collapsed.

    This is what I think about when I hear for calls for “due process” for those who are accused:
    “Wait, so *now* you want to live in a sociefy of laws?”

    I hate the shitty media men list. I don’t want to live in a world where people make public google spreadsheets of allegations, no more than I want to live in a world where people put spring guns behind their front doors.

    But decrying all the spreadsheets and all the “lack of due process” won’t change the world we live in, the world that keeps spinning up new and desperate forms of self-help. This chaotic, Lord of the Flies feeling of helplessness? It belongs to all of us now, welcome.

    Anyways this is the only correct answer to calls for “due process”

    Matthew Garrett
    Replying to @yiwensin and @isislovecruft
    How can you say it’s mob justice if a court hasn’t ruled that it’s mob justice

    (The point Matthew Garrett is making is hashed out in a different thread.)

  79. 79

  80. 80
    Chyron HR says:


    Boy, it sure is weird how GG reverted to his Bush-era position of “I give the president the benefit of the doubt” as soon as the president was white and/or a Republican again.

  81. 81
    Barbara says:

    @Duane: It wasn’t okay for Bob Bentley, who was, admittedly, using state funds to conduct and then cover up his affair. However, it definitely takes Greiten out of the hunt for higher office.

  82. 82
    Aleta says:

    I hope Harper’s decides to reprint Moira Donegan’s article alongside the piece they’re planning. (Reprinting is already part of their style.) It’s clear and impressive.

  83. 83
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    A bunch of goddamned fuckwits pecking away at keyboards posturing about the imperfections of a real newspaper that does real reporting and nearly always gets the story right

  84. 84

    The wonderful NYT, created this media monster by giving her a platform when she was 25.

  85. 85
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: Don’t you have someplace you have to be?

  86. 86
    Jay S says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Well here she’s admitting what I thought was happening, given Donagan’s description of events. Roiphe didn’t have enough corroboration to name her, so she used “fact checker to try and convince her that she knew who it was. I’m guessing the draft named her in some way and she used the fact checkers as a way to get her to commit. That’s probably why Roiphe claims not to have known who it was. She knew with some certainty, but she didn’t have the sources that the magazine would require. I hope this is not common in publishing, but I fear it is. In no way does it justify this outing, however common it might be.

  87. 87
    debg says:

    @Cermet: And he was right. Can’t remember the details now, but there’s proof that he knew the women HAD BEEN SEXUALLY ABUSED or ASSAULTED. Grrrrrr.

  88. 88
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Amaranthine RBG:

    Oh hai. I was wondering when you were going to show up to defend the tattered honor of the Grey Lady even after we found out that they rejected the Fusion GPS story in favor of the one that claimed the FBI had exonerated Trump of any Russian ties.

    The saddest part is, you seem to have no clue that you look like an utter clown for defending the indefensible.

  89. 89
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    This is where he’s supposed to be, comrade. Just like he was knocking on doors for Kathy Tran in Virginia from his home in Sacramento.

  90. 90
    Jay S says:

    @Aleta: If Harper’s does reprint it I would hope it is with a follow up as to how this has played out in her life. Harper’s helped light a match that will likely bring a firestorm to her.

  91. 91
    debg says:

    Donegal’s brilliant piece is inspiring me to rework some of my college lecture notes into a long-form article. When I was teaching ancient/medieval/early modern European-Mediterranean history, I came across some fabulous resources that shaped my thinking about gender roles in times past. Highlights:

    Athenian society encouraged men to think in terms of good women and bad women. Respectable women had protection but little scope for independent action; bad girls had the opposite.

    The Latin word abductio usually gets translated as rape, but it blurs the line between women who are sexually assaulted versus women who choose to run away with a lover without their father’s consent. In the latter sense, dad’s the victim because it was his right to choose daughter’s mate.

    There’s a whole visual code for rape versus consensual sex in European art. That says a lot right there.

    P.S. Oliver Willis needs to publish that twitter thread as an essay. It’s fucking hilarious.

  92. 92
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @I’mARanting POS: You could make more productive use of your time than trolling here.

    E.g., you could take an online course in how to fire a loaded shotgun with your big toe (choose either) while the barrel is in your mouth. One with a practicum for a final.

  93. 93
    Tenar Arha says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Ugh, I read that and was *facepalming forever*

    She may teach journalism, but she’s obviously not a good journalist. And of course she contradicts the different story she gave to the NYT.

    & oh Lordy, her ratio, OMG!

  94. 94
    tam1MI says:

    Point of order: Under the Al Franken Rules, the author of the Shitty Media Men spreadsheet was not “outed”. She simply chose to come forward of her own accord, and any actions that may have forced that decision are irrelevant to the discussion.


  95. 95
    Aleta says:

    @Jay S:

    Lexi Alexander ‎‏
    All hell broke lose in the 2 hours people believed I created it, reporters bombarded my manager with with phone calls etc. I know about personal security and have friends who act as my cyber bodyguards and even I was sweating it

    Keep asking about her. Is she working, is she safe? Does she have the resources to get personal security advise? Do we need to hold a fund raiser to get her some safety counseling, for both real and internet life. Let’s just not forget about her.

  96. 96
    sharl says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: OMG, haha! Her very first tweet, and she gets introduced to The Ratio. For you folks not familiar with twitter, being “ratioed” is a strong indicator that your tweet is not being well received, and that posting it was probably a bad idea, as David Roth explains here.

  97. 97
    VeniceRiley says:

    I’m blocked from Twitter on my work pc, but I see interesting things happening on my phone. Donegan’s piece was epic, thanks for linking it. Tangentially, Melissa McEwan had a twitter encounter with a WaPo dudebro that she posted to Shakesville.com and it pretty much spells out what is wrong with Media Men. The actual men, not the list.

  98. 98
    tybee says:

    @Mathguy: fookin’ brilliant.

  99. 99
    EthylEster says:


    Many of our elites are sort of low quality too

    Yep. And the journos are some of the worst.

    I read the Roiphe/Donegan coverage in the Times and found it underwhelming and confusing.
    For me this is a trend in NYT and WaPo…an explainer that does not enlighten. Often the who, what, where, when, if present, are buried. And the syntax is so garbled and pronouns used so ambiguously only one who is already familiar with the story can follow the writing. Plus why are these two papers padding their subject matter by writing articles that summarize other articles in the very same issue of the paper?

    Quite often reading either of these so-called papers of record makes my skin crawl…because of the poor writing and lack of reasoning. We are doomed.

  100. 100
    EthylEster says:

    @rikyrah: That’s my rep you are quoting!

  101. 101
    Duane says:

    @Barbara: I never thought Greitens would be governor. He’s a genuine sociopath. I wonder what it takes to wake Republican voters. They seem to like the most vile candidate available.

  102. 102
    EthylEster says:


    However, it definitely takes Greiten out of the hunt for higher office.

    Ha, ha, ha.
    You must not get out very often.
    He’s a repub and the wife is standing by her man.
    This nothing that a call for thoughts and prayers can’t fix.

  103. 103
    sharl says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: As suggested in the replies to the first tweet there, that account may be counterfeit. Roiphe’s actual twitter account may be @KARoiphe; there has never been a tweet from this account, but it links to what appears to be Roiphe’s actual home website (link in twitter bio at the left).

    Counterfeit or not, the responses to that tweet are really something. At least on liberal/leftist women’s twitter, it appears that there is universal contempt for this author (and NYU Prof!). Fairly well known twitter women I’ve seen sniping at each other since the Democratic primary are unified in their opinion of Roiphe in the replies. It’s rather impressive.

  104. 104
    satby says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: you mean fuckwits like a best-selling author who also is a professor at MIT? Let’s see your credentials sport.

  105. 105
    sharl says:

    @sharl: Just to add, the recent Roiphe tweet may in fact be the real deal. Sometimes people start a twitter account, then either forget about it or lose their password, in which case it may be easier to just create a new twitter account (using a different “@” name, of course). There just isn’t enough information here to say, one way or the other.

    Katie Roiphe built her entire career telling men what they wanted to hear. A tactic for success only when men hold the keys to publishing.— Stella Bugbee (@stellabugbee) January 11, 2018

    And regarding Roiphe’s practice of dumping the heavy work on a fact checker, that has apparently been a common (and unfortunate) practice in the publishing industry for a long time, as noted here:

    Garance Franke-Ruta @thegarance

    As a one-layer digital editor I saw similar: there were certain older writers + academics whose careers were built with multiple layers of young women’s labor between their submissions + the public. Without those layers, their work would be reputation destroying for all involved.

    rachel syme‏ @rachsyme

    i started out fact-checking; there were certain reporters who the fact pool called “those writers” who would basically hand in half-reported stories and expect the fact department to pick up the slack, make the hard calls; everyone groaned when they were tasked with one of these

  106. 106
    Amaranthine RBG says:


    Yes, they really are no different than Breitbart. They’re all in for Trump !!!

  107. 107
    Amaranthine RBG says:


    Oh look its the person who works at Disney the home of rapist Weinstein and serial groper Lasseter. Hey, have you been tasked to tidy up Lasseter’s office when he returns after his 6 month break?

    You keep on being you!

  108. 108
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Amaranthine RBG:

    Hey, have you been tasked to tidy up Lasseter’s office when he returns after his 6 month break?

    Nope, I only covered for Lasseter’s assistant once, and that was for about half an hour in a pretty dire emergency. I have been hugged by him several times, but never groped. Weinstein was gone from Disney about 10 years before I started there.

    Any other questions you’d like to ask?

  109. 109
    sharl says:

    I love Nicole Cliffe:

    So I peeked for a MINUTE at the comments on the NYTimes piece (like a fool, as most of them think I am a monster) and I laughed so hard I think I peed a little. pic.twitter.com/48WE9UWidM— Nicole Cliffe (@Nicole_Cliffe) January 11, 2018


    There is a simple explanation –
    A study conducted by UCLA’s Department of Psychiatry has revealed that the kind of face a woman finds attractive on a man can differ depending on where she is in her menstrual cycle. For example: if she is ovulating, she is attracted to men with rugged and masculine features. However, if she is menstruating or menopausal, she tends to be more attracted to a man
    with duct tape over his mouth and a spear lodged in his chest with a baseball
    bat up his as s while he is on fire. No further studies are expected on this
    The most UN answered question about the Universe is . . .
    What do women want ???

    Nicole Cliffe @Nicole_Cliffe

    Glad Lou weighed in.

    Nicole Cliffe @Nicole_Cliffe

    Women want their chin-hairs to be just long enough to tweeze, and that’s all I know about that.

  110. 110
    sharl says:

    @sharl: Hmm, just noticed that the Harper’s Magazine verified twitter account is following that new @katherineroiphe account, and in fact they retweeted the same tweet that Cheryl linked above.

    Despite online chatter about Harper’s senior leadership being antiquated traditionalist types, their twitter account seems “hip” and active enough; maybe they hired A Young for their social media work, as so many media outlets do. So I’m now thinking the account Cheryl linked legitimately belongs to Roiphe, and I’m also wondering if Harper’s managing editorial folks told Roiphe to “deal with this twitter conflagration,” and this twitter account and her two tweets were her response. (It ain’t helping her or Harper’s, obviously).

    Anyhoo, big props to Nicole Cliffe and a whole bunch of media-prominent Roiphe-haters for doing what (IMHO) needed to be done.

    Most importantly of all, best wishes to Moire Donegan in finding a good job where she doesn’t have to work for misogynist assholes [1,2], and that any abuse resulting from all this will be minimal and short-lived.

    [1.] For the record, the last place she worked (The New Republic) said she wasn’t let go because of the Shitty Media Men list. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
    [2.] Wishing for her to find work for a non-asshole may be asking too much, given what I’ve seen about what media outlet-employed writers have to put up under even the best conditions in today’s publishing environment. If she is destined to work for one or more assholes, hopefully they at least won’t be misogynist or sexist.

  111. 111
    Jamey says:

    @Msb: Finally, the definitive overlap of “blogging ethics panels” and “ethics in gaming journalism.” #Progress!

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