Open Thread: If It Weren’t for Their Mommy Issues, These Hipsters Would Have No Issues At All

So the grown-ups at Vanity Fair decided, during this (usually) slow-news week, to let their Bright Young Things make a clickbait twitter video about how much they despise that Hillary Clinton woman. If you haven’t already tripped over it, you can click on the link above. I try to remind myself I said some very dumb shit when I was that young… but I was never that irresponsible.

292 replies
  1. 1
    Steeplejack says:

    God, I wanted to smack each and every one of those twits in that Vanity Fair video. Get back to me when you’ve done, like, anything.

  2. 2
    kindness says:

    When I was their age I said some terrible things about a couple Democrats. George Wallace was one. I still stand by those terrible things I said back then. Yea, I’m an old.

  3. 3
    eclare says:

    That video is vile, and more so because most of the people featured are women who owe so much to people like Hillary for the opportunities that they have in life. The misogyny and sexism in that piece! I don’t recall people telling McCain, Sanders, or any number of male politicians to “move on”…a number *have* moved on to “distinguished elder statesman” status. Grrr, rusty farm tools, etc.

  4. 4
    Paula says:

    Someone tweeted something to the effect that the VF writers who are very upset at the pushback they’ve been getting wouldn’t have lasted an hour in HRC’s shoes. So right.

  5. 5
    Cheryl from Maryland says:

    OT — but this is for Suzanne who was looking for recommendations to upgrade her kitchen ware. Le Cruset is major expensive. Even at Marshalls (which for some odd reason has it regularly). A few years ago I received a Lodge enameled cast iron pot — much cheaper, still comes in many pretty colors, about 1/4 the price. Here’s the link to Amazon. Also, if you want an upgrade to your pots and knives, I suggest the fine folks at Knife Merchant. They have been providing advice for my spouse and in laws for 15 years and never steered them wrong.

  6. 6
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Barack Obama keeps most admired status in annual Gallup poll

    Bernie Woulda Won

  7. 7
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @Paula: If they had been subjected to the grilling Hillary was before that bogus hearing of Gowdy’s, they’d have been flopsweating at least as freely as Gowdy was.

  8. 8
    PhoenixRising says:

    That last though: Hillary’s the got dam Giving Tree. Her last gift will be shielding the prospective 2020 nominees from flack until they win the primary.

  9. 9
    Mike J says:

    The hats those tens of thousands of people wore to protest Trump? Knitted.

  10. 10
    Baud says:

    You cannot defeat Trump if you want to be Trump.

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  12. 12
    dnfree says:

    So maybe Vanity Fair should take a lesson from Teen Vogue?

  13. 13
    Hungry Joe says:

    Hillary Clinton took my baby away from a dingo and ate it. The baby AND the dingo. And she blew an election by getting only three million more votes than her opponent. And in her e-mails she still double-spaces after a period, and refuses to use the Oxford Comma. How could American society have produced such a monster? Name a greater threat to the nation than Hillary Clinton. After dingoes, I mean.

  14. 14

    Most of the complaining about Hillary is in-group signaling. “We’re so edgy & ironic & think for ourselves.”


  15. 15
    MomSense says:

    Put down the knitters all you like VF hipsters, but those pu$sy hats didn’t make themselves.

  16. 16
    Baud says:

    I’m glad to hear that the push back was severe enough to be its own story.

  17. 17
    Some Guy, Helvering says:

    @Mike J:

    Some knitted, some crocheted.

  18. 18
    Baud says:

    @MomSense: You mean people didn’t just buy them on Amazon?

  19. 19
    Fair Economist says:

    I think it would be a hoot for Clinton to say in a TV interview “Some people have said I should take up knitting and so I made this!” and pull out a pu$sy hat.

  20. 20
    ThresherK says:

    @Cheryl from Maryland: Seconded on Lodge Enameled Cast Iron. Mine is actually that blue 6-qt.

    Vanity Fair is usually not this stupid.

  21. 21
    tobie says:

    WTF is wrong with these people? I guess it’s so much easier for them to blame Hillary for Trump than to blame themselves for doing nothing to support the Democratic nominee. So much group-think here. Must be hard to try to convince yourself you’re a free spirit when everything you do shows you’re a conformist.

  22. 22
    Paula says:

    @Baud: Knitted hats – yep, I have my self-knitted pink hat which I’ll be wearing again on Jan 20th at the Women’s March. I’m an avid knitter and know people of all ages who knit, so the idea of HRC knitting misfires on a couple of levels. For many people, knitting is still seen stereotypically — as a quaint thing grandma does — but that stereotype is hugely outdated. So they managed to insult both HRC, by reducing her career to a hobby comparable to dated ideas about knitting, AND knitters, who don’t think their hobby should be used as an example of something “harmless and silly”.

    But mostly it’s the it’s-ok-to-mock-HRC thing that I think most of us are responding to. We’re sick to death of people minimizing the woman’s genuine accomplishments.

  23. 23
    different-church-lady says:

    Both parties are the same: Republicans love piling on Democratic losers, and so do Democrats.

  24. 24
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    MomSense says:


    And George Soros didn’t mass produce them.

  26. 26
    tobie says:

    @Paula: Wait…is there a women’s march repeat on Jan 20? I’m so out of it I didn’t even know.
    P.S. Like many here, I’m a knitter, and I was damn proud that real and virtual knitting stores around the country sold out of pink wool a few weeks before the march.

  27. 27
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    eclare says:

    @Fair Economist: I wish a motherfucker *would* ask me about my knitting!

  29. 29
    satby says:

    @Some Guy, Helvering: @Baud: MomSense knitted mine!

  30. 30
    Steeplejack says:



  31. 31
    eclare says:

    @HumboldtBlue: Gee, you think that kid might have a future playing bass?

  32. 32
    Baud says:


    But mostly it’s the it’s-ok-to-mock-HRC thing that I think most of us are responding to.

    A sure sign of privilege if ever there was one.

  33. 33
    Baud says:

    @Major Major Major Major: What’s it say? It’s all Greek to me.

  34. 34
    eclare says:

    @Steeplejack: Needs some star-shaped sunglasses.

    ETA> Thought you were referring to something else!

  35. 35
    JR says:

    Fucking hipsters

  36. 36
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    I am completely over giving the media one more second of my time so they can bash the Clintons. They have been at this smear campaign for more than 25 years and I’m done with it. Hillary Clinton gave her all in this last campaign. To all the a-holes who say she ran a terrible campaign, I say, “Please run for president and then get back to me.” I am completely sick of the Clinton bashing; I will not watch some smarmy, smart-assed, smug video by a bunch of self-satisfied, ignorant fools who are doing the work of the Russians to undermine our country. My message to Hillary is my paraphrase of 2 Timothy 4:7-8: You have fought a good fight, you have finished your course, you have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for you a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give you at that day; and not to you only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. Happy New Year Juicers!

  37. 37
    satby says:

    @Mike in Pasadena: I like the cut of your jib.

  38. 38

    @Baud: The Greek part isn’t visible there actually.

  39. 39
    debbie says:


    Yours were the best on Etsy by far.

  40. 40
    Fair Economist says:

    @Mike in Pasadena: I think Hillary, as a devout Methodist, would appreciate the verse and the sentiment.

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    Roger Moore says:

    Knitters (and crocheters, needlepointers, etc.) just need to rebrand themselves as “makers” to sound cool and modern.

  43. 43
    different-church-lady says:

    @Roger Moore: Work in a craft-beer angle and every beard-bro in America will be doing it.

  44. 44
    Paula says:

    @tobie: Is there a Women’s March repeat?

    Saturday, January 20, 2018 at 11 AM – 3 PM

    Washington, D.C.
    March To The Polls D.C., the Anniversary to the 2017 Women’s March, exists to advance peaceful and positive progress in our communities, with the goal of ensuring all women and their allies persist in civic and political roles moving into 2018.

    In Virginia, we have shown that our unwavering dedication to achieving progress gives us the ability to make change happen. When we vote, we win. When we stay engaged, we win. When we support each other, we win. March To The Polls: 2018

    Here’s the Facebook page link:

    They have stuff about sister marches around the country.

  45. 45
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    Sarah Jones

    Replying to @onesarahjones
    I wish we could stop talking about Clinton and her supporters but they’ve made that impossible at this point

    Who the hell is this and what planet have they been living on since the past year? Literally nobody has been talking about Clinton supporters and as for talking about Clinton how is that our fault?

  46. 46
    dmsilev says:

    @Hungry Joe:

    and refuses to use the Oxford Comma

    That’s enough for me. Burn her!

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  49. 49
    tobie says:

    @Paula: Thanks for the info!

  50. 50
    dr. bloor says:

    Graydon Carter leaves, the clever children take over and wreck shit.

    Can’t wait for the meteor, thankyouverrymuch.

  51. 51

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Who the hell is this and what planet have they been living on since the past year?


    Which reminds me of the best description I ever saw of Twitter, from the webcomic Achewood: “Twitter is where you go to win an argument nobody’s having.”

  52. 52
    Paula says:

    @tobie: You’re welcome!

  53. 53
    jl says:

    I can’t even muster the interest to watch the video, even for a hate-view. I agree with the Dana Houle tweet that obsession with HRC might be blessing since it distracts our corrupt and nearly worthless media from the real action for 2018 and 2020, which is grass roots organizing, GOTV, doing hard work needed to beat voter sppressiion efforts.

    I saw a toxic and foul NYT ‘thinkpiece’ which opined that since the Democrats have been on a winning streak in special elections, maybe no reason to make much fuss over various sorts of targeted voter suppression efforts. We don’t need that kind of attention. But, it is typical snot-nosed ruthless corporate hack thinking” “Hey, a win is a win, if you can win, why worry about denial of franchise to someone who is black, or Hispanic, or too old or too young, or too female, or an ex-felon who has paid his debt to society and should have full citizenship rights restored. Screw them. Got a win, nothing else matters.” That is the kind of crap which is being pumped out into society under the guise of coherent and responsible thinking.

    So, let them obsess over HRC, and HRC vs BS, or whatever. The real action is moving on. HRC should do what she damn well pleases, its a free country.

  54. 54
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Mike in Pasadena:

    Very nice.

  55. 55
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Neera Tanden 🖖🏼‏ @neeratanden

    The file of reporters who attacked Hillary and a whole group of progressive women and turned out to have a history of misogyny is growing by the day.

    5:45 AM – 22 Dec 2017

    338 replies 2,954 retweets 5,258 likes

    Hillary W🥂rned Us‏ @HillaryWarnedUs

    Glenn Thrush (NYT)
    Mark Halperin (MSNBC/Bloomberg)
    Hamilton Fish/Leon Wieseltier
    (New Republic)
    Sam Kriss (Vice)
    Jordan Chariton (TYT)
    Charlie Rose (CBS/PBS)
    Matt Lauer (NBC)
    Ryan Lizza (CNN)
    Tavis Smiley (PBS)
    Matt Taibbi (Rolling Stone)
    Chris Matthews (MSNBC)
    Cenk Uygur (TYT)

    7:31 AM – 22 Dec 2017

    28 replies 278 retweets 551 likes

    What a coincidence. The people who hated Hillary had a long history of misogyny and sexual assault/harassment


  56. 56
    Roger Moore says:


    But mostly it’s the it’s-ok-to-mock-HRC thing that I think most of us are responding to.

    It’s not just that it’s OK to mock Hillary, it’s that it seems to be mandatory. People keep searching for excuses to mock her even when she’s irrelevant to what they’re talking about. It’s like cult members denouncing an apostate to prove their loyalty.

  57. 57
    different-church-lady says:

    @Major Major Major Major: God, I miss Achewood.

  58. 58
    NotMax says:

    They’ve got the Vanity part down pat.

    The Fair part? Not so much.

    @Major Major Major Major

    Unfortunately closed during the Xmas through New Year week, but if you’ll still be in London from 3 January on, might want to check the place out.

  59. 59

    @Roger Moore:

    It’s not just that it’s OK to mock Hillary, it’s that it seems to be mandatory. People keep searching for excuses to mock her even when she’s irrelevant to what they’re talking about. It’s like cult members denouncing an apostate to prove their loyalty.

    This is exactly how every conversation with a few of my Bernie-woulda-won friends goes. That, and ridiculing whatever the Democrats are doing, or just making up shit they’re doing and mocking that, instead suggesting that Democrats should do things they’re actually doing.

  60. 60
    Suzanne says:

    @Cheryl from Maryland: Thanks for the advice. I have some Victorinox knives that I like very much, and (most of) my cookware is a set that I bought from Costco right before I got married eight years ago, and I had one of those annual reward certificates for about $200. I bought the set, which cost me about $40 more than the certificate. It is definitely a good quality set, though the bottom of the large skillet is starting to separate. I will have to contact Costco about replacing it. But I am very happy with it, all told. In addition, I have a large stock pot, a Lodge skillet, and an omelet pan that my mom gave us as a gift. I don’t like the omelet pan. It’s some nonstick Calphalon. It sticks.

    What I am missing is a Dutch oven, some ceramic bakeware (I have been replacing the crappy Calphalon metal stuff we were given when we got married), and I would like a pair of small skillets for doing omelets properly. I will spend money to get the higher quality stuff if it is worth it, but also don’t want to be stupid. In an informal poll of Juicers + my foodie friends, approximately half say that Le Creuset is worth the money. Advice on the size has been fairly consistent (right around 6-quart, plus or minus, seems to be the way to go), and the majority say the enameled cast iron is better. So now I will see what the birthday fairy brings, what the sale fairy has up her sleeve, etc etc etc.

  61. 61
    Paula says:

    @Roger Moore: Yes. She’s not running for office and is keeping a fairly low-profile but these idiots went with the “don’t run again” anyway. It’s just slurring for the sake of slurring now. It’s become an “evergreen”.

  62. 62
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @dr. bloor: They think they’re as clever as Greydon Carter. They are of course very, very wrong.

  63. 63

    @NotMax: I’ll be in Lisbon by then, alas.

  64. 64
    different-church-lady says:

    @Paula: Meanwhile yet another “How can we possibly understand the Trump voter?” article is being incubated in the sludge of Mordor as we speak…

  65. 65
    Paula says:

    @different-church-lady: Grrrr. I know. So so sick of them.

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  67. 67
    jl says:

    We can be hopeful for the future, though. One possibility is how they will long for the would-be two term HRC presidency after they have to deal with Kamala Harris starting in 2020. How long has it been since we have had a president who spent most of their early career as a DA?

  68. 68
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @Suzanne: Get the ceramic skillets. As for knives, if you can find a set the Martha Stewart branded knife sets sold by Macy’s are excellent. I don’t know who actually makes them, but they are excellent.

    I picked up a set on sale before I moved to Carlisle. I needed new knives, Macy’s was having a sale, plus I had a bonus percent off card, and I picked the things up with a heavy discount. I’ve been very, very impressed over the years with them. They have held up. They maintain their edges very well. No issues with rusting or staining or pitting.

  69. 69
    different-church-lady says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Wait, Cenk Uygur has been outed as an asshole? This is my shocked face!

  70. 70
    JMG says:

    @Major Major Major Major: Never say alas in reference to being in Lisbon.

  71. 71

    @JMG: What about “Alas, I have to leave Lisbon”?

  72. 72
    Baud says:

    @different-church-lady: He’ll never unseat Diane Feinstein now.

  73. 73
    NotMax says:


    Do like this ceramic loaf pan. Also have a cookie sheet from the same manufacturer. Presume their other ceramic bakeware is also up to snuff.

    Although for Bundt cakes, I much prefer a silicone pan (folds practically flat to store!) to a metal one. Better to not forego the Pam-type spray on the particular silicone one I have but if that is done, clean-up is a breeze.

  74. 74
    Cowgirl in the Sandi says:

    I have several Le Creuset pots I like very much and that I use a LOT – they cook well and are easy to clean. Don’t know where you live but Le Creuset does have outlet stores where you can get seconds for less. There is one in South Carolina and also several around the Bay area in California. Might be worth checking out…

  75. 75
    Adam L Silverman says:

    @NotMax: Second on silicon for baking pans. I use them for cakes, cheesecakes (got a silicon springform pan), you name it.

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    amygdala says:

    @Suzanne: A few points that you mentioned in your initial post that (I think) went unaddressed.
    1) enameled vs plain cast iron: If you’re going to use the Dutch oven to make dishes with tomatoes (or other acidic ingredients), enameled cast iron would be the better choice. Well-seasoned cast iron is usually ok with those ingredients, but if the vessel isn’t perfectly seasoned, your foods may get that icky metallic taste
    2) round vs oval: If you’re going to use it to braise a whole chicken, then, depending on size, oval might be preferable so that the bird will fit in there.
    3) LeCreuset vs others: LeC and Staub are the pricey brands for Dutch ovens, but sometimes you can find them deeply discounted, especially this time of year. If there’s an outlet mall near you, you might find a good deal there.
    4) If you’re going to use it in the oven, consider getting a metal (stainless, I think) knob for the lid. The plastic ones hold up to 375 or so, but it’s easy to forget until a few hours later when the thing has melted. Doesn’t come up too often for braises, but could be an issue if you’ll be baking no-knead bread in your Dutch oven.

    I have a 7 quart (or so) LeC Dutch Oven that sees most of its use this time of year, for soups, stews, and other cold-weather eats. I use wooden or silicone utensils in it, and haven’t had problems with scratches or stains that wouldn’t come out with baking soda or Barkeeper’s Friend. I also have a couple of smaller LeC pieces as well. Didn’t pay full price for any of them, and they’re quite sturdy.

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    mike in dc says:

    @Major Major Major Major: The dragging ABL gave Walker “I’m not Ha-ha” Bragman was epic, though.

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    Suzanne says:

    @Roger Moore: It’s “art” when white men make stuff, and “craft” when women or indigenous people make stuff.

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    pluky says:

    Madame de Farge knitted. They should take that as a warning.

  81. 81
    Mike J says:

    @Major Major Major Major: The British stolen goods warehouse is a great way to kill a whole week. I lived in London and don’t think I ever saw all of it.

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    Suzanne says:

    @Cowgirl in the Sandi: I have a lot of outlets nearby, so I will be keeping eyes out when I shop. It is also my birthday in a couple of weeks, and my mom likes to get me kitchen stuff, so we’ll see.

    @amygdala: Tomatoes are quite possibly my favorite food ever, so once I heard that they wouldn’t work in the raw cast iron, that specific decision was easy. Enameled it is!

    @NotMax: We got a bunch of nonstick Calphalon bakeware for our wedding, and it SUCKED. I have been replacing it piece by piece (just bought a few more pieces today, 20% off). After much research and polling this community, I got USA PAN brand, which is nonstick alumized steel with a silicon coating. I have been very happy with it so far.

  83. 83
    NotMax says:

    Please scroll on by if any discussion of bodily secretions makes you queasy.

    Think (hope) the ol’ bod got the final approved, stamped and sealed notice to evict the coughy disease.

    Rather than the usual spray or droplets when coughing, hacked up several oyster-sized gobs of mucus this morning within a short time frame. Chest feels back to normal since, coughing all but gone (there’s been vog in the air, so any residual, very light coughing could be from that).

    Seven weeks to the day from first onset.

    /TMI    :)

  84. 84
    Brachiator says:

    I saw a Fox News story headline gleefully playing up the conflict caused by the stupid Vanity Fair nonsense. This is in heavy rotation with some phony story about Obama.

    I guess the Fox News approach is that anti Hillary stories are always good, and that anti Obama stories must be pushed to the top whenever the former president is in the news.

    Bottom line. All anti liberal and anti Democrats all the time.

  85. 85
    tobie says:

    This must be a generational thing, but I feel like a lot of left-leaning publications are now being run by either 30-something-hipsters or the last remnants of the old (left) guard. This makes them either unbearably smug or or strident. 10 years ago I’d check out The Nation, The New Republic, and Rolling Stone. Now I can’t stand any of them.

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    StringOnAStick says:

    @Some Guy, Helvering: I can’t knit or crochet so I sewed mine out of hot pink T-shirt material. And made several for friends.

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    scav says:

    @Suzanne: just to add to the suevey of informality, another vote that Le Creuset is good, but so is Staub. For many things the enameled finish works well, but for making bread, we’ve discovered that the bare matte finish is the one we prefer (and have two separate Lodge pots dedicated to the service. We really like bread.)

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    Reformed Panty Sniffer says:

    @Suzanne: I have to agree on Le Creuset brand. I have a Le Creuset soup pot that I use constantly. Pretty sure my mom got it at Marshalls years ago and it holds up. (Even at 70 bucks or so, I think it’s worth having.) I make a ton of soup in it every fall/winter. Made crab bisque tonight and it was great. I also have a set of Simply Calphalon pots and pans that I got 2-3 years ago and they have worked out well. I think spending extra on good cookware holds up in the long run. Also, coffee.

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    chris says:


    Madame de Farge knitted.

    So I’m not the only one. I have an image of Madame de Farge from an old movie that I saw when I was a kid. When I saw the knitting bit the image popped up unbidden with Hillary’s face. If Hillz wants to sit and knit while the machine does its grisly work… I’m OK with that.

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    chopper says:


    me too. sigh. plus perry bible fellowship updates infuriatingly slow.

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    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @ SarahLerner
    “I don’t appreciate being taken out of context to make me seem super sexist,” said one VanityFair writer. Yeah, no. You literally told a female public figure to “take up a new hobby” & knit. That’s enough “context” to deem the video sexist garbage.

    God bless them, every one.

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    Amir Khalid says:

    I googled Cenk Uygur to find out what his scandal was; his bio box in the result page told me he has a son named Prometheus Maximus Uygur. Eyeroll.

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    Suzanne says:

    @NotMax: Sounds like valley fever. Do y’all get that in your neck of the woods?

    As for HRC…..this is a topic that I’ve been kind of avoiding for the last few months. But last week, some women in another online politics group that I’m in were discussing how we have developed just a ridiculous and passionate allegiance to her after everything that she has gone through in the last two years especially. I will readily admit that I was generally pretty lukewarm on her. I voted for BHO in the primary in 2008 and voted for Bernie in 2016, though I struggled with that decision because I always did admire her. She has long been too trigger-happy for me, and I felt that voting for Sanders would,be a good way to show my support for progressive policy rather than centrism. I always admired her from a feminist perspective, and I knew and said since 2008 that if she ran for president in 2016 that she would face some pretty disgusting sexism, sexism that would be as grotesque as the racism that BHO faced. I had no idea how true that would prove to be. Once she won the nomination, I canvassed for her, in the Phoenix heat, a lot.

    But now I fucking adore her. I would crawl through broken fucking glass to donate my fucking kidney to her if she needed it. All the women in my group and I agreed that we now have a love for HRC that is irrational and all-encompassing. I am so fucking done with bullshit from the neophyte left sent in her direction. Let Hillary Rodham Clinton live.

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    Another Scott says:

    @Major Major Major Major: (Probably the 15th person to make this observation in this thread, but Forward!)

    I hear there’s an app called Rosetta Stone that can help you read that. HTH!!


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    Nora says:

    @chris: And if you remember, Madame de Farge wasn’t just knitting; she was making a record of everything that happened so she could testify about who had done what to whom when the tribunal sat. Not just watching and knitting, but keeping track. Yeah, I like that image.

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    Argiope says:

    @Nora: Receipts!

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    Yarrow says:

    @Cowgirl in the Sandi:

    Le Creuset does have outlet stores where you can get seconds for less.

    I talked to the sales people in one of those stores. Sometimes they’re just selling off the stock of a color that has been discontinued, so they’re not even seconds. They have good prices.

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    jl says:

    @NotMax: I manned up and read the horrible details. Everyone seems to have that kind of flu.

    Edit: Oops, missed the seven weeks. Could be valley fever. Have you seen a doc?

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    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Major Major Major Major: 3M: I really recommend the Floresta Restaurant at Salitre 42 about a block from the Avenida Da Liberdade (close to the Avenida Metro stop). Excellent food, mostly grilled fish, wonderful appetizers, very reasonable prices. The service was also good even though they always had plenty of customers (it was May, 2017). Some of the best food I have ever eaten anywhere. If you don’t have a hotel yet or you are having doubts about the one you’ve chosen, the Vintage Lisboa is excellent (this hotel is up a fairly steep street from the Floresta Restaurant). Fairly expensive, but excellent beds, excellent breakfast included, and the solid wood shutters with heavy curtains shut out any street noise and light in case you are still catching up on your sleep. Except for the slippery sidewalks, good memories of Lisbon.

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    Cacti says:

    I’ve never met a hipster who wouldn’t benefit from a punch in the face.

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    different-church-lady says:

    @chopper: Regular doses of Dinosaur Comics provide some solace.

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    debbie says:

    @Cowgirl in the Sandi:

    TJ Maxx has Le Creuset at very reduced prices from time to time. I wish I could justify the purchase.

  105. 105
    No Drought No More says:

    Democrats inexplicably still concerned about Hillary Clinton will have to wrap their heads around the fact she was a lousy candidate to begin with, and an even worse campaigner, and will never be president. Never. At this point, ter may as well bemoan the political fate of Adlai Stevevson for all the good they’re doing their party or country. She unapologically supported the Bush/Cheney plot to war and then lost an election to goddamn Donald Trump. She’s over, and everyone that wants the GOP dead should let her go in order to best get on with the killing.

  106. 106
    Miss Bianca says:

    I got nothing to say except fuck these fucking little smug, entitled pricklice. A shame and a hissing shame upon their heads.

  107. 107
    neldob says:

    I vote for plain cast iron as you can burn stuff in it and practically grind it out to get it clean. Its indestructible. of course my burning food issue … requires indestructible.

  108. 108
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Hungry Joe:

    And in her e-mails she still double-spaces after a period, and refuses to use the Oxford Comma.

    Nope. No one who double spaces after a period would fail to use an Oxford comma.

  109. 109
    Cacti says:

    @No Drought No More:

    And this just proves Bernie would have won.

  110. 110
    Miss Bianca says:

    @satby: MomSense knitted mine too! And my sister’s!

    @Mike in Pasadena: Amen, brother.

  111. 111
    Steeplejack (phone) says:


    You might also check at Tuesday Morning. I believe there are two or three of those in Phoenix. My brother is a showboat cook, and he has scored a few Le Creuset pieces at the one here at huge discounts.

  112. 112
    debbie says:


    Color me skeptical, but it sounds like pneumonia to me. Googling valley fever, I find that it can develop into pneumonia if not treated. Skip the home treatment and get to a doctor.

  113. 113
    Citizen Alan says:

    @No Drought No More:

    People like you are why I literally want Bernie Sanders to keel over stone fucking dead, the sooner the better.

  114. 114
    tobie says:

    @No Drought No More: Your comments make the bot army in St. Petersburg proud. The American left turned out to be as easily played as the American right. Case in point: your almost Pavlovian response to the mere mention of HRC. How much did you do in the face of the greatest challenge to democracy this nation has ever seen? Nada, I assume. You bitched and moaned about the candidate and pined for Bernie.

  115. 115
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Adam L Silverman: There are silicon springform pans? This wonderful world!

    @pluky: Heh heh heh heh. Oh, but do these Bright Young Expensively Educated Things have any idea who Mme DeFarge is?

  116. 116
    Honus says:

    @debbie: TJ max, marshalls and home goods also have All Clad for 1/2 to 1/3 regular price, and it is the best. All professional cookware is either all clad or a copy of all clad. It cooks evenly and never breaks or wears out.

    Le crueset is the best for any enameled or stone cookware, which is why it commands the price.

  117. 117
    Sab says:

    Who were those six Vanity Fair twerps? Normally in a video like that they aren’t anonymous. That was one of the many odd and unpleasant features of that video.

    Also don’t get on camera while drinking champagne.

  118. 118
    Miss Bianca says:


    But now I fucking adore her. I would crawl through broken fucking glass to donate my fucking kidney to her if she needed it. All the women in my group and I agreed that we now have a love for HRC that is irrational and all-encompassing. I am so fucking done with bullshit from the neophyte left sent in her direction. Let Hillary Rodham Clinton live.

    And so say all of us, sister.

  119. 119
    delk says:

    About ten years ago my husband went back to school and to be considerate I took up knitting to do something quietly while he was studying. It’s a great hobby.

  120. 120
    Miss Bianca says:

    @No Drought No More: Must you stay? Can’t you go?

  121. 121
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: You and I are as one on this grammatical point. A glass of mead with you, sir!

  122. 122
    Brachiator says:

    I took a quick look at the Gallup most admired story.

    Interesting to see Hillary Clinton and Michelle Obama in the top spots. And then,

    Also in the top of women admired most in the survey were Oprah Winfrey at 4 percent, Sen. Elizabeth Warren at 3 percent and German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Queen Elizabeth II at 2 percent each, Gallup said. First lady Melania Trump was also in the top 10 with 1 percent.

  123. 123
    Mohagan says:

    @Suzanne: Here’s another vote for the Le Creuset being worth the price. I got a Martha Stewart dutch oven for Christmas about 10 years ago and I fell in love with enameled cast iron, but the dutch oven was heavy and stained and started to chip around the edges. Last year at Christmas I finally said the hell with it and bought the LC dutch oven as my X’mas present to myself and it’s wonderful. It’s lighter (!!), has bigger handles, doesn’t stain, and hasn’t chipped. I had been making my husband use the old dutch oven for his navy bean soup batches and finally this month I gave it to Goodwill. For Christmas this year I bought myself the 11.5 skillet! Both pieces will outlast me, I’m sure.

  124. 124
    chris says:


    I vote for plain cast iron

    Seconded. Twenty bucks at the hardware store seemed like a lot at the time. My 25 year old Dutch oven is sitting on the stove now waiting for me to get off my ass and do the dishes. Of course it’s never used for things that require salt or tomatoes.

  125. 125
    chopper says:


    just got a nice le creuset tagine for free from a friend. brand new! the things I’m gonna stew in that fucker…

  126. 126
    Steeplejack says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    “I don’t appreciate being taken out of context to make me seem super sexist,” said one VanityFair writer.

    I’m still seething—eh, simmering—a little bit about this. Over Christmas I happened to be regaling some yoots with stories of the long ago 1970s (hey, they asked), and, when I happened to mention that some of my fellow (female) newspaper reporters couldn’t get a credit card because they didn’t have a husband to co-sign for them, the yoots were like: “Nuh-uh!” “No way!” “Wait, what?” And these are smart kids, late 20s.

    In some ways our society has made so much progress that it’s easy for (some) people to forget how things used to be. Hillary Clinton and the women in her generation were in the forefront of securing the rights that these Vanity Fair girls seem to take for granted. “Hey, grandma, get a hobby!” It’s infuriating. Wonder how they’d like it if the highest position they could aspire to at Vanity Fair was secretary and “optional office piece on the side.”

  127. 127
    amygdala says:

    @chopper: Nice!! I went on a tagine jag some years ago when I came back from Marrakech. If you like sweet-savory dishes at all, this is a great late summer/early fall thing to make in it: plum-nectarine chicken tagine.

  128. 128
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: Cheers.

  129. 129
    Luthe says:

    @Honus: Staub is better, IMHO. Le Crueset is good, but Staub’s black enamel interiors are better for browning and the braising spikes in the lids are genius. Also, Staub can sometimes be cheaper.

    @Suzanne: If you want omelet pans, a set of 8″ and 10″ Calphalon nonstick ones should do you. Just make sure to get the ones that are safe for metal utensils. One good scratch and the pan is toast. Also, don’t start on high heat; work your way up gradually from medium. Non-stick is temperamental and doesn’t like to be overheated.

    (I used to work at Williams-Sonoma, so I have Opinions on cookware).

  130. 130
    eponymous says:

    @Suzanne: A fervent amen to that. I had the privilege of going to a book signing by her at the Tattered Cover in Denver, a few weeks ago. Only a few moments to shake her hand and and exchange a few words, but her warmth and personability were palpable.

  131. 131
    Suzanne says:

    @No Drought No More: Of course she’s not going to be president. So everyone who irrationally hates her can STFU and talk about something useful. Starting with you.

  132. 132
    frosty says:

    @Mike J:

    The British stolen goods warehouse

    Once I figured it out, you won my corner of the internet for that one.

  133. 133
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Suzanne: But the dude is so pure….

  134. 134
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Cheers. And now it’s off for a viewing of “Casablanca”. Again. Because. That damn movie *never* stops being relevant.

    @eponymous: Damn. How I wish I had been there!

  135. 135
    Suzanne says:

    @Luthe: We have a nonstick Calphalon omelet pan, probably a 10″. It was a gift. I dislike it. I burned my omelet in it yesterday morning.

  136. 136
    Steeplejack says:


    Of course it’s never used for things that require salt or tomatoes.


  137. 137
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: On the TV box or on the big screen? If TV, what channel? Asking for a friend.

  138. 138
    rikyrah says:

    She knitted mine and Peanut’s 😄😄

  139. 139
    Shana says:

    @Cheryl from Maryland: Also for Suzanne, we upgraded to Mauviel cookware a couple of years ago when we put in an induction cooktop. I just checked Sur La Table and they’re selling a 10 piece set for $400, way less than we paid for ours. We looked at All-Clad but found the Mauviel to have more comfortable handles and since it’s kind of heavy that became an important consideration.

  140. 140
    Suzanne says:

    @Steeplejack: Agreed 6352428204636%. I am eating a bowl of tomato soup as I type this. Tomatoes = LIFE.

  141. 141
    Sab says:

    Doing a rant here:

    Who were those six Vanity Fair twerps? Normally in a video like that they aren’t anonymous. That was one of the many odd and unpleasant features of that video. I want to know their names so I never read them again in any publication.

    This isn’t a joke gone bad. This is sneering at 3 million more voters who did vote for Hillary.This is sneering at anyone who isn’t an overeducated unexperienced kid with a writing job above their experience level.

    I don’t care if the writers are in the prime advertising demographic Their video was adolescent, offensive and uninformed. If this is what Vanity Fair is going to be going forward I am not reading any more.

    Also don’t get on camera while drinking champagne.

    Also, those ditzy little girl reporters with their champagne flutes wouldn’t even have jobs if it wasn’t for women like Hillary (and to a much lesser extent me) who went out in the workforce in a really hostile environment in the 1970s and 1980s. They would be in typing pools banging away on their typewriters typing other people’s memos, contracts or copy.

    I am really angry especially at the girls. You really think you having jobs is normal. I and Hillary and millions of other of American women have spent our whole adult lives clawing out opportunities, and you little things get up there with your champagne flutes and sneer at YOUR failure as if it was ours. We got out and voted. Your age group didn’t bother because you didn’t think it mattered.You may well learn otherwise on the next generation.

  142. 142
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    This is so funny I would watch CNN to see it

    CNN Newsroom‏Verified account @ CNNnewsroom
    “You Can’t See Me” ❌ 👀 A large truck is attempting to block cameras from capturing video of President Donald Trump golfing

  143. 143
    Cowgirl in the Sandi says:

    One more tip re: cast iron whether LaC, Staub, Lodge, etc.

    I used to work as a volunteer at a cooking school. As we were lugging big, full pots of coq au vin to the oven, the chef said, “Take the lid off before you put it in the oven. Then you lose about 5 pounds.” Well duh! How come I never thought of that!

  144. 144
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: ah, a somewhat scuffed-up DVD from my little local library, so sorry to raise hopes!

    @Sab: Rant away, my dear. I’m right there with you.

  145. 145
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: My friend will be sad. Enjoy.

  146. 146
    Gex says:

    @different-church-lady: It’s yet another one of those “everyone knows but no one says” kinds of things.

  147. 147
    frosty says:

    @Miss Bianca: @Adam L Silverman: Ahem, people. That’s siliCONE, the artificial rubber, not siliCON, the element that glass and microprocessors are made of.

    Jus’ tryin’ ta be helpful here.

    PS we have some of the silcone pans we use for baking while camping because they fold up and store so small. Seconded on the recommendation (thirded?)

  148. 148
    Amir Khalid says:

    @No Drought No More:
    Hillary was neither a lousy candidate — she was the only one in 2016 who showed any understanding of the scope of the presidency, and the only one to show she had the skills for the day-to-day work — nor a lousy campaigner — she thumped Bernie in the primary., and got more votes in the election proper than der Scheißgibbon. Your persistent misrepresentation of that campaign has worn thin here.

  149. 149
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Ah, were you really asking for a friend? I shall toast you both at the singing of the Marseillaise.

  150. 150
    chris says:

    @Steeplejack: @Suzanne: The oven is for stews and the like, mostly low heat slow cooking. I have a couple of nice Paderno stainless steel pots for pasta sauce etc.

  151. 151
    Miss Bianca says:

    @frosty: oops. Too much LDS, obviously.

  152. 152
    Steeplejack says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Chris Hayes showed clips of that on his MSNBC show last hour.

  153. 153
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Miss Bianca: No, I was keeping up the fiction. Method commenting.

  154. 154
    Suzanne says:


    You really think you having jobs is normal.

    I was raised by my mother and her parents. My grandfather was a wonderful man and I miss him every day, but he was sexist (and racist) AF. He told his daughters that they could be secretaries, nurses, or teachers. So my grandmother was a secretary, my aunt became a nurse, and my mom became a teacher. He died in my senior year of high school, so he never got to see me say goodbye to all that and go to graduate school and then a career. I know he would have been proud, if confused. But I always remember that even great men believed this kind of shit, and that it is not far away.

  155. 155
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: heh.

  156. 156
    Steeplejack says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    So unsettling when the audience breaks the fourth wall.

  157. 157
    Sab says:

    @Cowgirl in the Sandi: I love the voice of experience. Listen to it.

  158. 158
    Amir Khalid says:

    Idly pondering my next guitar purchases. (Yes, I’m getting cocky.) Epiphone Les Paul 100 and Squier Bullet Strat, or cheapo no-brand LP/ST type copies? I do plan on modding the guitars in either case.

  159. 159
    eclare says:

    @Steeplejack: Seconded.

  160. 160
    Shana says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Wait, we don’t double space after a period any more? Then how come if I double space quick enough when texting on my phone I get a period if we’re not supposed to do that anymore? I am confused.

  161. 161
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Amir Khalid: Why an Epiphone Les Paul? Why not a Gibson? Go big or go home.

    /bad influence

  162. 162
    Luthe says:

    @Suzanne: Well, non-stick can vary in quality a lot and ages very quickly. If you want to try ceramic instead, the Zwilling Spirit line is very good.

    Zwilling knives are also the bomb, but always get the ones with the “two man” symbol on them. Those have the lifetime warranty, versus the “one man” knives which only have a five year. (and of course, good knives never go in the dishwasher. Hand wash only!)

  163. 163
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Shana: I still do it, but you should notice that it doen’t show up on this blog.

  164. 164
    frosty says:

    @Amir Khalid: You’ve got the Tele with the single coils now. For the 2nd, get something with humbuckers, so you can get a different sound. I like SGs just because they aren’t Les Pauls. They’re finicky about tuning though, but since I switched to string sets with a wound G I haven’t had as much trouble. My semi-pro friends swear by Epiphones.

    Have fun!

  165. 165
    Shana says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well it does when I comment….

  166. 166
    Another Scott says:

    @Sab: Well said.


    The people in the video work for the “Hive” at VF. I assume their names are listed somewhere (though they didn’t jump out at me).

    I just looked around and noticed they had similar videos (“6 New Year’s Resolutions“) for Gary Cohn, Sarah Huckabee, and President* Trump posted. (Scroll down)

    Rather like Kate McKinnon on SNL before the 2016 election, I think they thought they were being smart and edgy and had no thought in the world that they were reinforcing toxic memes. And doing it badly. They thought it was funny.

    With any luck, they’ve taken some of the righteous feedback to heart.


  167. 167
    Omnes Omnibus says:


    good knives never go in the dishwasher.

    Who would put knives in a dish washer? Also, i was unaware of the one vs two man issue; mine are two man – they were a gift.

  168. 168
    SFBayAreaGal says:

    @Sab: I hope there are women that are teaching the young women a history lesson.

  169. 169
    frosty says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    /bad influence

    LOL I went Gibson just because. But like I told Amir, I’ve got friends who like their Epis and don’t think the Gibson premium buys them much more guitar. That being said, everything needs a setup, and the less you spend, the more it’s needed. I picked up a nice blond Epi Rivoli bass that hummed like crazy. Took it to a tech and the factory had wired the pickup wrong. Once he fixed it, it was fine.

  170. 170
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Another Scott: Rather like Kate McKinnon on SNL before the 2016 election, I think they thought they were being smart and edgy and had no thought in the world that they were reinforcing toxic memes.

    also the Weekend Update guys. I gave up on TDS in Trevor Noah’s first couple of weeks (I’ve heard he’s gotten better), but I seem to recall people saying he did the same thing

  171. 171
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Amir Khalid: what amp are you using? That’s seriously important to your sound.

    ETA:dropped off my vintage Twin Reverb today to get new tubes and some other work done. My house feels so lonely now….

  172. 172
    eclare says:

    @Luthe: People put good knives in dishwashers?

  173. 173
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:
    Why not a Gibson? Vitamin M (for you-know-what) deficiency. If I’m feeling rich I might go for the Epi Les Paul Studio (more elegant looks than the Standard and cheaper too) and a Squier Standard Strat. Alas, the Marshall Code 100 head (digital modelling amp! It does all the classic models!) and matching 4×12 cab will always be beyond me. I aspire only to the bedroom-amp-on-steroids Fender Champion 100.

  174. 174
    frosty says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    Too much LDS, obviously.

    My turn. LDS?

  175. 175
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Shana: Hmmmm…. I don’t see it. Might be a browser thing. Anyway, it were what I were taught, and, dammit, I be continuing it whether anyone can see it or not.

    /smug superiority.

    ETA: I typed the double spaces, but they do not show on my browser.

  176. 176
    eclare says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: All of the cool kids were doing it, even Colbert.

  177. 177
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Steve in the ATL:
    Fender Champ 20, Mooer GE100 multi-effects peda. The Girl is a butterscotch-blond Squier Affinity Tele.

  178. 178
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Amir Khalid: Gibsons are overpriced and their quality has declined tremendously. Why not Paul Reed Smith?

  179. 179
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Amir Khalid: Get the Gibson; you know you want it.

  180. 180
    eclare says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Seriously asking, it is acceptable not to double space after a period these days? And yes, I belong to the Oxford Comma Always and Forever Club.

  181. 181
    Another Scott says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: Oh yeah, Jost and Che were just brutal. :-(

    I think Kate realized how unfair she was to HRC (just my impression – her Hallelujah was heartfelt) – dunno if Jost and Che ever did (though they are now tough on Donnie, Che (especially) still seems very both-sidery to me).


  182. 182
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL: You aren’t helping.

  183. 183
    Steve in the ATL says:


    For the 2nd, get something with humbuckers, so you can get a different sound. I like SGs just because they aren’t Les Pauls. They’re finicky about tuning though, but since I switched to string sets with a wound G I haven’t had as much trouble. My semi-pro friends swear by Epiphones.

    What he said, except for the part about wound G strings with is on par with voting for trump.

  184. 184
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @eclare: People say that it is unnecessary, but people also say that going shopping in pajamas is acceptable.

  185. 185
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: just trying to help a brother out. Later I will recommend a Dynelectro 12-string over a rickenbacker. Bring on the hate!

  186. 186
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: or wearing flip flops anytime other than walking from your car to the beach or showering at summer camp.

  187. 187
    debbie says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Jeez, 87 rounds!

  188. 188
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Alas, the Marshall Code 100 head (digital modelling amp! It does all the classic models!)

    IOW you are not a douchebag. That’s a good thing.

  189. 189
    Miss Bianca says:

    @frosty: Sorry, reference to Star Trek IV movie. Transpose a couple letters.

  190. 190
    Steve in the ATL says:


    Wait, we don’t double space after a period any more

    Of course we do. Ignore the philistines.

  191. 191
    eclare says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Then this household will continue to use double spaces.

  192. 192
    debbie says:


    Enough. Double spaces after a period ended when typewriters became obsolete. And the Oxford/serial comma is mandatory. Period.

  193. 193
    lowtechcyclist says:

    @Mike in Pasadena: Amen. Preach it, brother!

  194. 194
    eclare says:

    I don’t follow why typewriters becoming obsolete equals no longer needing double spaces. Not being snarky, I honestly don’t get it. Plus this is new to me, I had not heard of this.

  195. 195
    Steeplejack says:


    Double-spacing after a period—or a question mark, an exclamation mark or anything—at the end of a sentence is a holdover from the days of typewriters and their monospaced fonts. Typewriter manuscripts have more white space and look “looser,” so the double-spacing at the end of a sentence was a visual cue that is no longer necessary in these days of “proportional” fonts.

    I will add that even back in the day the double-spacing thing applied only to typewritten MSS. If the document got typeset, the compositor would insert the proper spacing, sometimes adjusting it a little for purposes of line justification and making use of the greater variety of “spaces” available in various widths—em-spaces, en-spaces and one or more “thin” spaces.

    Shorter: You don’t need to type two spaces at the end of a sentence, and, as someone noted above, most HTML platforms will turn them into one space anyway.

  196. 196
    frosty says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Sheesh. If Vitamin M is an issue with a Gibson, then it’s moreso with a USA-made PRS. Although I’ve always liked them from afar, especially with a single-coil/humbucker switch. Fender and Gibson in one guitar. With bird inlays, what’s not to like?

  197. 197
    Jay S says:

    @eclare: Fonts are generally not monospace and the space of a space is variable. Word processors generally build in appropriate spacing at the end of sentences. ETA what Steeplejack said betrter.

  198. 198
    frosty says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Twin Reverb?? That’s some serious volume. I’ve got a ’69 Deluxe Reverb that I can’t turn up past 3 in the house. Sounds great at 5 or 6 though. Weber Mini-mass fixed the ear bleeding.

  199. 199
    frosty says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Well, if you like retuning your SG in the middle of a song, by all means, stick with unwound G. It’s a hint I picked up from some forum or other and it seems to have worked. Not an issue if you play slide most of the time like I do.

  200. 200
    Suzanne says:

    @Luthe: I have a set of the Victorinox knives with the Fibrox handles, and I think they are great. I got them when a store near me was closing and they were clearing out their entire inventory, so I got the whole set for under $100. That was eight years ago and they are still great. Although one of them went missing this week, but that is not unusual in my household.

    As a (former) graphic designer, and a graphic design major…..NEVER use two spaces after a period. For God’s sake. I can tell you that every major publishing house takes out any extra spaces when doing their typesetting.

  201. 201
    debbie says:


    Typesetters setting type for books, magazines, etc. used variable spacing and a single space after the period. When word processors came along, most fonts used variable spacing (Courier and Monaco being rare exceptions), so to appear more professional, we were trained to use a single space after the period.

    Personally, I think it looks better. A double space looks like a tooth gap to me.

  202. 202
    frosty says:

    @Miss Bianca:

    Sorry, reference to Star Trek IV movie. Transpose a couple letters.

    Oh hell, still clueless. I lean Star Wars not Star Trek (flamewar ON!!). Not sure which movie was IV or if I even saw it.

  203. 203
    frosty says:

    Serious question: Can we reach a TBogg unit if the dregs of the thread only consist of …

    Fender vs. Gibson vs. PRS
    Two spaces or one after a period, and
    Star Trek vs. Star Wars (recently introduced by yours truly)

  204. 204
    Sab says:

    @SFBayAreaGal: I have a bad feeling that they will have to learn it for themselves.

  205. 205
    Suzanne says:

    @eclare: On typewriters, the metal part that held the letter that struck the page was the same size for every letter, and there was always the same amount of space between letters. So wider characters, like a lowercase M, had to be squished to be really narrow, and skinny letters, like lowercase I and lowercase L, had big serifs put on them to make them look less awkward. Because all the characters had the same width, they are called “monospace”. If this hadn’t been done, certain letter combinations would overlap, like “mm”, while others would have too much space in between them, like “li”. So to make it easier for a reader to differentiate between space between letters, space between words, and space between sentences, it was conventional to use two spaces after a period, one space in between words, and the typewriter had a standard spacing for the letters. Most typewriters in the US used the typeface Prestige Elite.

    But monospace typefaces are difficult to read, and are not visually elegant. The proportions are not ideal, and it is easy to mistake certain characters for others. All modern software of which I am aware will automatically compensate and put in a hair of extra space after a period without typing a second space—and in fact, a second full space is too much space.

    Don’t even get me started on hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes. Or ellipses.

  206. 206
    Steeplejack says:


    I, too, have a (small) complement of Victorinox knives. Love ’em.

  207. 207
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @frosty: I’ve never broken any windows with it, but I’ve rattled the hell out of some. Obviously I have no use for that much power now, but I can’t get rid of it after 30+ years—it’s a part of my family now. Longer than my wife or children!

    My objection to a wound third string is based on my own playing, which involves a large number of third string bends. If it works for you and you use the Oxford comma, then more power to you! But not Twin Reverb power—that’s just ridiculous.

  208. 208
    Jay Noble says:

    @debbie: Yup. I’ve been doing computer paste-up for catalogs for nearly 15 years now. Unless you are using a monospace font that is intended to mimic a typewriter, the spacing is all automatic. And even then the type/copy can be manipulated to create the double space without actually using 2 space.

    Having actually set real lead type as part of a class, the freakiest part of all this is you can do negative kerning and leading without physically shaving pieces of type!

  209. 209
    eclare says:

    @Steeplejack: So double spacing was just an arbitrary “rule”?

  210. 210
    Steeplejack says:


    I think she was going for LSD, but I’m not sure. Was IV the one where the Enterprise goes back to the 20th century? Too lazy to look.

  211. 211
    Suzanne says:

    @debbie: Courier and Monaco are both monospace, which is why the spacing always looks inconsistent. No one kerns monospace typefaces unless they’re being really extra.

  212. 212
    NotMax says:

    To those above who expressed concern, thanks, but 0% chance of valley fever. No fever, no sore throat, no rash, no feeling cold-y or flu-y or achy, just chest and sinus congestion. And not a dry cough. It’s a bug going around.

    Friend who is a doctor essentially said, “Yeah, it’s a thing. You can nurse it at home and it’ll last 40 – 60 days. Or you can go in and get meds and it’ll last 6 – 8 weeks.”

  213. 213
    debbie says:


    Agreed, which is why I said they were exceptions to word processors adapting variable spacing for their fonts.

  214. 214
    Suzanne says:

    @eclare: Double spacing was the only way to compensate for the shortcomings of the typewriter. Monospace typefaces are visually difficult to read in large amounts, and the double spacing was the only way to make that easier. But it hasn’t been necessary for at least 30 years, and in fact makes the type look worse.

  215. 215
    Steeplejack says:


    Most typewriters in the U.S. used the typeface Prestige Elite.

    Correction: most typewriters used Pica, a “10-pitch” font (10 characters to the inch), not Elite, a 12-pitch font.

  216. 216
    Steve in the ATL says:


    Serious question: Can we reach a TBogg unit if the dregs of the thread only consist of …

    Fender vs. Gibson vs. PRS
    Two spaces or one after a period, and
    Star Trek vs. Star Wars (recently introduced by yours truly)

    This is why B-J is so awesome. And, we can ignore the threads about knitting, birds, and Hamilton!

  217. 217
    eclare says:

    @Suzanne: Interesting! Yes, I remember those old typewriters with the, for lack of a better term, strike bars that had the letter imprinted on them, but I never considered that the letters were not the same size so there had to be some compensation. Makes sense that a software program could space things better than humans could.
    Thank you!

  218. 218
    NotMax says:


    Yeah, IV is the one where the giant boiler-and-soccer ball thingie comes to Earth to hobnob with whales.

  219. 219
    debbie says:


    Or Selectrics, which you could switch back and forth between 10- and 12-pt. pitch.

  220. 220
    Suzanne says:

    @Steeplejack: I always heard that Prestige Elite was what IBM used for the Selectric, so it became the standard for most manufacturers. I suppose it doesn’t matter too much, as neither typeface is really in common rotation anymore.

    I’m a Garamond fan. I love the classics.

  221. 221
    frosty says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    If it works for you and you use the Oxford comma, then more power to you

    It works for me, and yes, Oxford comma rules!!!

    PS I started playing slide after sadly realizing I couldn’t bend the strings the way I wanted to sound. And then Bonnie Raitt and Duane Allman. And Nationals. Oh, and Ry Cooder.

  222. 222
    Cowgirl in the Sandi says:

    @Luthe: People put good knives in dishwashers?

    Continuing with my experience as a cooking school volunteer – once we were doing a ‘team building workshop for a bunch of attorneys and the subject of knife sharpening came up. One participant was amazed that knives could be sharpened. She said ‘Oh – I thought when they got dull, you just threw them away.”

  223. 223
    eclare says:

    @Suzanne: That makes sense, thank you. But is this practice generally accepted? Or is it an office by office edict? The last place I worked was still wedded to the double space.

  224. 224
    frosty says:

    I was cured of putting two spaces after a period when a (ahem, obsessive) client insisted on one and I had to go through a two 100 or so page Word documents and do search’n’replace on two spaces to one, and make sure I didn’t screw it up when there was a legitimate reason to have more than one space.

    ETA Having learned to type in summer school after HS junior year (in a class with three guys and all the rest really cute girls) I was taught to use two spaces. I is conflicted!!

  225. 225
    Steeplejack says:


    It was a rule, but it wasn’t arbitrary: it gave the eye a clue that a sentence had ended.

    Look at this example of old typewriter text. The writer does not put two spaces at the end of a sentence, and the text is harder to read (perhaps only subtly so).

    P.S. I’m not commenting on the content of the example. There is some bullshit in there.

  226. 226
    eclare says:

    @Cowgirl in the Sandi: Wha……? The knife sharpener is at the farmers’ market every weekend here.

  227. 227
    Suzanne says:

    @eclare: There may be some Luddites somewhere who insist on a double space, but there’s no reason for it, and the industries that actually produce printed and published material do not do it. Speaking as someone who had to take blocks of copy and set it into ads and collateral and send it out to publications all over the country, every publication I ever dealt with had one space as the standard.

  228. 228
    J R in WV says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    OT: there’s a nice portrait of someone looking at the rock, reflected in the lower right of the stone.

    Is that the “Rosetta stone”…??? Wow, that is so cool.

  229. 229
    Another Scott says:

    @frosty: Me too!!

    I don’t think I’ll ever get used to my Android phone insisting on installing a period whenever I type 2 spaces in an SMS message.



  230. 230
    Suffragette City says:

    I’m inclined to tell those young whippersnappers to fasten their seatbelts, going to be a bumpy night.

  231. 231
    frosty says:

    @Cowgirl in the Sandi:

    She said ‘Oh – I thought when they got dull, you just threw them away.”

    It is to weep.

    Obviously not a Boy Scout. We had to learn to sharpen our knives. All the better to play mumblety peg and stretch, too.

  232. 232
    eclare says:

    @Steeplejack: Line seven of the first paragraph was very difficult to read because of spacing. Is that the monospace? Not sure what happened with that. The ending of the sentences didn’t bother me so much.

  233. 233
    Mnemosyne says:


    Also, newspapers. As far as newspaper printers are concerned, double spaces and Oxford commas are a waste of typesetting space. That’s why every newspaper stylebook eliminates both.

  234. 234
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    And, we can ignore the threads about knitting, birds, and Hamilton!

    Why must you hate all of my favorite things at once?

  235. 235
    eclare says:

    @Suzanne: You have convinced me, but I work in accounting. I’m just lucky I don’t have to wear a green eye shade anymore (kidding). Seriously, when I started, women were required to wear skirts, people could smoke in their offices, and the company was only twenty years out from requiring men to wear hats.

  236. 236
    Sab says:

    Totally OT : I fear that I have a wonderful dog dying in the bed beside me.

    She is a mostly short-haired st bernard mix. I have had her for about three years. I think she is about 11 years old.

    She is very tall (30 inches at the shoulder) and used to be very slender (80 lbs.) She is wasting away. She started to have issues about two weeks ago, when she threw up on walks.

    We switched her to a very mild diet of chicken and rice. She’said fine with the chicken but she won’t eat rice.

    She throws up when we don’t feed her, but she seems to be OK with tiny portions of chicken or turkey fed to her every couple of hours. She seems to be able to keep it down.

    If she isn’t fed, she gets nauseous and vomits

    She was an 80 lb dog a month ago. Now she’s 50 lbs and fading fast. And she’s 30 inches tall.

    I have taken her to the vet, of course. Her blood work looked fine. Her x-rays looked fine. She is still puking her guts out every morning, eating small amounts of very select food all day, and otherwise losing weight at a horrifying rate.

    Has any dog owner out there experienced anything like this?

    My vet has no idea what is going on, and I am afraid she will starve to death before we figure this out. We don’t think it’s any sort of cancer. She just won’t much eat any more. She seems hungry until she faces actual food.

    Otherwise she seems bright and alert, for now.

  237. 237
    Mnemosyne says:


    Screenplays still use Courier font because it’s monospace and gives a more accurate page count. Variable fonts would fuck up the page count in unexpected ways, which could cost the production actual money.

  238. 238
    Mnemosyne says:


    Do dogs get pancreatitis, where something goes wonky with their pancreas? I’ve heard of it in cats with very similar symptoms.

  239. 239
    J R in WV says:


    Whatever you do – get rid of / don’t buy non-stick chemical coatings. The precursor chemicals fed into the Teflon process have poisoned whole counties around the duPont plant up near Parkersburg WV. The shortcut name is C8, and people are dying in statistically significant numbers. But the lawyers will keep it in court until everyone is dead.

    When you overheat a non-stick chemical coating it releases toxic fumes into your kitchen. But we all know that no one ever smokes a frying pan, right? Right? RIGHT?

    at least when you overheat an iron pan, you just have to re-season it…

  240. 240
    eclare says:

    @Sab: I’m so sorry. My experience with a cat is that my cat lost an amazing amount of weight (half her body weight) in a very short time, the vet did tests, came back not diabetic. My Neko continued to decline, vet said, well, I guess the test is only 95% accurate, there is another test we can do, that test came back with no doubt. Has your vet run every test there is for diabetes?

  241. 241
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Suzanne: Anathema!

  242. 242
    Sab says:

    @eclare: Yes, ran diabetes test. That came out negative.

    @Mnemosyne: She doesn’t seem to be in pain, so neither vet thinks it’s pancreatitis.

  243. 243
    Another Scott says:

    @Sab: I’m sorry. That’s horrible. :-(

    No personal experience, but it sounds very much like bilious vomiting. They suggest reducing the amount of fat in her diet to reduce the irritation.

    It sounds treatable. Fingers crossed!

    HTH a little. Good luck!!


  244. 244
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Mnemosyne: Worst Coltrane cover ever.

  245. 245
    Steeplejack says:


    1. There were millions of typewriters in use before the IBM Selectric came along. Most “business” machines came with a fixed Pica font (the little “hammers” of which you spoke). Elite was more common for “home” portables (like my little Hermes 3000).

    2. I used Selectrics at the newspaper and owned one of my own at home. They came standard with a Pica element. Yes, you could get an Elite element for a Selectric, but 12-pitch typewriter text is harder to read than 10-pitch, and for a long time professional publications (and some universities) would not accept submissions in Elite. Shocking, I know.

    You could also get elements with different “fonts,” but they were all monospaced. As my newspaper transitioned to automated typography, we used a special sanserif font on the Selectric that the Wang “word processor” (giant box in a room of its own) could read.

    Late in the day IBM tried to go full proportional on the Selectric, but by that time desktop word processors and microcomputers were winning the day and for good-looking output people were using something like the NEC Spinwriter printer.

  246. 246
  247. 247
    eclare says:

    @Sab: I don’t know where you live, is there a vet school near you? Hopefully one associated with a state university? I took a friend of mine and her dog to the vet school in Athens when her dog was hit by a car, and my dog had his ACL surgery at a vet here consisting of Mississippi State grads. Those schools have excellent programs, and they might be a little more “connected” with issues. If nothing else, call the vet school in your state university, and ask if anyone can help.

  248. 248
    Steeplejack says:


    The whole thing is monospaced! “Monospaced” means that every letter takes up one equal unit of space. Look how each letter lines up exactly under the letter above it and above the one below it. Then look at any of the text in this thread and see how the letters do not line up like that. The text is “proportional”: thin letters take up less space than wide letters.

  249. 249
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steeplejack: Heh, you said Wang.

  250. 250
    Sab says:

    @Another Scott: That’s what I have been thinking. Tried treating her that way today. Seemed to work well. Unseasoned turkey broth wigh bits of turkey and potato chunks as a sort of thick soup. Hopefully I can get my spouse to agree and the vet to sign on. I spend five nights a week with my extremely elderly dad, so whatever I think doesn’t matter for those nights. Totally sucks for the dog if I am right and they are wrong, but that is what it is.

  251. 251
    frosty says:


    Friend who is a doctor essentially said, “Yeah, it’s a thing. You can nurse it at home and it’ll last 40 – 60 days. Or you can go in and get meds and it’ll last 6 – 8 weeks.”

    I love Expert Medical Advice. That’s a hoot (I did the math).

  252. 252
    NotMax says:


    Tiny bit of typewriter history.

    Uncommonly seen even in the mid-60s when it first went on sale, the electric Olivetti Praxis 48 still oozes industrial chic.

  253. 253
    Steeplejack says:


    Double spaces are never used in typeset text. Two em-spaces or even two en-spaces would look huge.

  254. 254
  255. 255
    Sab says:

    @eclare: @Sab: I don’t think we have a nearby vet school, but we have a very good vet hospital with many specialists

  256. 256
    J R in WV says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Thank you Amir. I’m trying hard to just pie the individual, and evermore reply to his comments about glorious pie. Or just ignore the obvious fascism.

  257. 257
    varmintito says:

    @dnfree: Yeah, they’ve been crushing it so hard for at least a year that even I, a middle-aged man, notice it.

  258. 258
    Suzanne says:

    @eclare: My mom used to work for Moody’s doing typesetting, and she said they would use monospace typefaces for the numbers when in table formats only. Since monospace characters are all the same width, they will neatly “stack” vertically whereas proportional faces will not. So if you work in accounting, you may need to use monospace numerals.

    But if you are using any proportional typefaces—and you probably are, because they are the most common—there is no need to double up spaces.

  259. 259
    Steeplejack says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Ha! Thanks, I needed that. Was getting wound up and thinking I would have to go back to Gutenberg’s discovery of fire.

  260. 260
    J R in WV says:


    ” Seriously asking, it is acceptable not to double space after a period these days?”

    Only if you are not using paper and a typewriter. When typing, double space. When using a computer, you need not. It sometimes looks quite odd on the screen.

  261. 261
    eclare says:

    @Sab: If it is a state school, call, and ask to speak to someone. That is why they are there, and they are often more cutting edge than vets in practice. For all of their ribbing, state schools usually have excellent vet schools. Friend of mine had a cat during the cat food crisis a few years ago ( I can’t remember what was wrong with it). Drove the cat six hours to the vet school in Knoxville at UT. Vet saw the cat.

  262. 262
    Suzanne says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yes, dogs get pancreatitis. I had a dog who got it twice.

    Yeah, I know screenplays are done in Courier. I know why they do it, but it’s terrible to read and to look at.

    @Steeplejack: Thanks for the info re: the Selectric. I stand corrected. My grandmother had multiple typewriters when I was growing up, which I used on occasion, but I really came of age with a Macintosh.

  263. 263

    @Major Major Major Major: I took a picture of THE SAME ROCK, what are the chances.

  264. 264
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steeplejack: Fuck that. Ogg discovered fire.

    ETA: Ogg say “Fire burn!”

  265. 265
    NotMax says:


    An example. Single space after period.

    An example.  Double space after period.

  266. 266
    eclare says:


  267. 267
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @NotMax: Doesn’t work for me on the site. FF eliminates the second space.

  268. 268

    @Mike J:

    The British stolen goods warehouse is a great way to kill a whole week.

    I don’t think they stole the Magna Carta.

  269. 269
    NotMax says:


    In proportional fonts, the extra space is just a little too much for the eye to effortlessly scan..

  270. 270
    eclare says:

    @Sab: I would really recommend you call your state’s university that has a vet school. That is why they are there, and they are usually pretty good. My friends of mine and I have had good experiences, just call.

  271. 271
    Steeplejack says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    He’s probably throwing in one or more non-breaking spaces:


  272. 272
    NotMax says:

    @Omnes Omnibus

    Using FF here and no prob. Used the HTML decimal designation for a non-breaking space rather than the space bar, so ought to show properly.

  273. 273
    NotMax says:


    Actually, used same thing, different format.


  274. 274
    Steve in the ATL says:

    If we TBogg this thread talking about spacing….

  275. 275
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL: I am going to bed.

  276. 276
    NotMax says:

    @Steve in the ATL

    You maybe have something against space exploration?


  277. 277
    Steeplejack says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    Since you mention it, that ellipsis would look better with a little spacing:

    talking about spacing . . .

    = talking about spacing . . .

    It will stay unbroken even if it occurs at the end of a line.

  278. 278
    Mnemosyne says:


    I think there’s an echo in here.

  279. 279
    NotMax says:


    & # 8 2 3 0 ; (with no spaces in that code) will generate an ellipsis, with the dots correctly smaller than a standard period.

  280. 280
    Steeplejack says:


    I meant double spaces are not used in typesetting even when space is not an issue, e.g., books, magazines, billboards. It’s not merely a question of “newspapers saving space.”

  281. 281
    Steeplejack says:


    The #8230 ellipsis doesn’t have enough “spread.” It’s barely wider than an m.

  282. 282
    Mnemosyne says:


    I meant double spaces are not used in typesetting even when space is not an issue, e.g., books, magazines, billboards. It’s not merely a question of “newspapers saving space.”

    Space is ALWAYS an issue in typesetting. Every kind of typesetting. That was my point, before you decided to fixate on the specific example so you could find a way to declare me “wrong.”

  283. 283
    frosty says:

    Love you jackals. Nice try on the TBogg. I’m out. Gotta fecking get to work in the AM.

  284. 284
    Steeplejack says:


    Okay, let me break it down for you.

    As far as newspaper printers are concerned, double spaces and Oxford commas are a waste of typesetting space.

    First, newspaper typesetters don’t concern themselves with Oxford commas or their absence. They set the text exactly as it is given to them. Commas, spelling, space-saving abbreviations and “style” are the province of the copyeditors and their stylebook. Typesetters usually will correct an obvious typo, but it’s not up to them to decide about Oxford commas. And, yes, newspaper style typically does omit the Oxford comma to save space.

    That’s why every newspaper stylebook eliminates both.

    Second, newspaper stylebooks don’t concern themselves with typesetting issues. And, even if they did, they wouldn’t have to “eliminate the double-spaces thing,” because that was never a thing in typesetting, newspaper or otherwise. It was purely an artifact of typewriter formatting.

    I wasn’t trying to “declare you wrong,” but your “because newspapers” explanation was faulty and deserved to be unpacked.

  285. 285
    dimmsdale says:


    Late in the day IBM tried to go full proportional on the Selectric

    I believe you’re talking about the IBM Composer? Hot stuff at the time. I never used it, but I did use the IBM Executive, which was a proportional-font setup on a standard electric typewriter mechanism (IBM C and D models could be gotten in the Executive format, which had double space bars, one a 3-unit space and one a 4-unit space, depending on …. well, I forget what it depended on. But wider letters, like m’s and o’s, needed different spacing than the narrow letters.) Jesus, I’m sitting here typing this out and thinking “who cares anymore?” Except GW Bush’s ANG records probably were typed on either an Executive or a Composer, since they were proportionally spaced. OK, that’s enough musty dusty minutiae. Does anyone else remember the circular erasers with the horsehair brush at the end? (God, I’m old.)

  286. 286
    Steeplejack says:


    The apex of my involvement with Selectrics was that I splurged and got the “European” model of a Selectric II or III that allowed you to type accented letters. It came with special elements and a little switch that, when activated, allowed you to type an accent, caret, tilde, etc., and then the typing position wouldn’t advance until you typed a letter under that symbol. And the keyboard was a little different, to match the element: e.g., the ¿ and ¡ symbols replaced a couple of the usual symbols (curly braces, maybe). This was in the mid-’70s. Good times.

    And, yes, we are old.

  287. 287
    J R in WV says:

    @Jay Noble:

    I worked in a hot type composing room for a daily newspaper. I knew it was going away, and wanted to really learn how it all worked before the computers came in and changed everything. I also wanted to see the change. It was the family business, and tradition was that family worked longer hours and NEVER turned in OT. To set a good example. Or something.

    And as I say, I was interested. I remember trimming lines of type to end a paragraph where the hole stopped, and picking the last paragraph of stories, esp. editorials and political news, included the parts that made Nixon look as much like a crook as a guy working with hot type could get it.

    The characters were molded with little brass molds, one for each letter, character, and punctuation mark. There were long thin stainless tapered wedges you could use for spaces to make the line of type tight enough to hold in the hot molten typesetting metal long enough for it to cool and set up hard. We had automatic keyboards that set type from punched type that the teletypes produced for each story.

    But to do corrections or edits, we would have to reset a line, or even a paragraph of lead type by hand on a manually operated linotype machine. It was complicated, and I enjoyed learning a complex craft that was about to become extinct in the newspaper world.

    There are still letterpress print shops, some for the art of letterpress printing, some are just old fashioned. And you can get looks on small runs of cards or invitations with letterpress that you can’t do with offset, or phototypesetting.

    I enrolled in software development program at the local U not too long after that.

  288. 288
    Another Scott says:

    @J R in WV: Neat.

    My old geezer story doesn’t go back that far.

    My mom had a Selectric II at home. She got it to do freelance typing for students at the university, etc. She had about 5 different “balls” for it – 10 pitch (mumble), 12 pitch (mumble), math, “script”, and a couple of others I think. The cats hated it. They would climb up on the table while she (or I) was typing and bat at the ball as it was bouncing and rumbling across the page. More than once they would hit it in such a way as to mess up something mechanical in it and some key would no longer work. (The cat would then wander off having slayed the monster.) I eventually learned how to fix it so we didn’t have to take it to the shop (remove the cover and look for the leaf spring that had been shifted off its corresponding lever and put it back in place).

    I understand the argument post-period spacing from typesetting, but I think we’ve all seen examples of pathological line spacing where about 5 words on the line have about half an inch between them because of some badly-done “full” justification… :-/ . Double-spacing after periods still looks “correct” to these eyes (and fingers) even if “everyone” now agrees that it’s “wrong”.

    Finally, we saw Idiocracy again recently. Remember St. God’s Memorial Hospital?



  289. 289
    Paula says:

    @Suzanne: RE: love for HRC: I know exactly what you mean.

  290. 290
    Marcia says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    But the dude is so pure….

    We’ll leave “pure what?” to the imagination.

  291. 291
    Marcia says:

    @Steeplejack: What a wonderfully easy and risk-free way to piss off finger-shaking busybodies. Thanks!

  292. 292
    Steeplejack says:


    To what exactly are you referring?

Comments are closed.