Wednesday Morning Open Thread: There Will Be Blood (From GOP Turnips)

When it comes to the modern GOP, we’re speaking of people who could fvck up a one-car funeral procession. Unlike most monstrosities, this bill has at least two very obvious fathers, both of whom I shall take delight in seeing suffer for its every real & imagined failures…

House Republicans thought they had finished their tax work on Tuesday afternoon when they passed a version of the bill 227 to 203. But the effort hit a snag Tuesday afternoon when the Senate parliamentarian ruled that three of its provisions violated that chamber’s Byrd Rule — guidelines on what types of legislation can pass with a simple 50-vote majority.

To comply with the Byrd Rule, the Senate made minor tweaks to the bill before passing it, requiring the House to vote again as the two chambers must pass identical versions. The House is slated to vote Wednesday midday, and none of the changes are expected to cost the plan GOP support.

Despite the delay, Republicans celebrated Tuesday in anticipation of their plan passing, their first major legislative victory of the Trump presidency.

Trump has for months pushed Republican lawmakers to send him a tax plan by Christmas and promised in a tweet to hold a news conference at the White House around 1 p.m. Wednesday after it clears Congress…

Nobody’s gonna waste much energy holding Trump to account over this, because (a) he’s done nothing but kibbutz the whole process from the sidelines, like any other Fox-News watcher; and (b) there’s so many other terrible things Trump has done as primary actor. But if I get my Winter Solstice wish, neither the Zombie-Eyed Granny Starver or the Bug-Eyed Kentucky Chelonian will be able to go out in public without umbrellas, for fear of people spitting at them…

And if the Trickster God is particularly good to me, it’ll be horse-race-tout Media Village enablers holding those umbrellas…

139 replies
  1. 1
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  2. 2
    rikyrah says:

    As far as the GOP is concerned..
    A poster here has the right idea:

    Wipe them out….all of them 😠😠😠

  3. 3
    eclare says:

    @rikyrah: Could not agree more. Good morning!

  4. 4
    mai naem mobile says:

    @rikyrah: I don’t want them all wiped out. Not right away. I want Mitch,Ryan, Jim Jordan,Grassley,Cornyn and Hatch to be in a tiny minority who are treated like total shit by the Dems. Really drag their face in the mud and then ask them why they aren’t being bipartisan. Also I want all their favorite little bits of legislation reversed. Even resolutions about post offices with their names. Be really really petty.

  5. 5
    tybee says:

    @mai naem mobile:

    I want all their favorite little bits of legislation reversed. Even resolutions about post offices with their names. Be really really petty.

    your ideas intrigue me, do you have a newsletter to which i may subscribe?

  6. 6
    NotMax says:

    he’s done nothing but kibbutz the whole process

    Um, it’s kibitz.

    A kibbutz is a collective community/settlement, traditionally rural and based on agriculture.

  7. 7
    NotMax says:

    And kopeks to krullers Dolt 45 will be unable to stop himself from using his preferred (and lying) kindergarten-level name for it – the Cut, Cut, Cut Bill – while wielding the ‘even writes on sh*t’ pen.

  8. 8
    mai naem mobile says:

    @tybee: no newsletter. Mr.Soros pays me plenty. I have more ideas. Mitch’s office should be a broom closet and Orrin’s and Grassley’s should be the size of an old fashioned telephone booth. Ryan and McConnell should get a monthly body cavity search frim Capitol Police,whst with their history of domestic terrorism, it would be prudent. I want Kamala Harris to personally – face to face – tell Grassley to suck it up and move on when Iowa gets all their farm subsidies pulled.

  9. 9
    Elizabelle says:

    I think Ryan and McConnell just signed their own bounty warrant. Dead or alive.

    Further, one cannot always get a reputation back. Albeit, Ryan’s was pretty fake. But selling out politically, and so obviously, often gets strange repercussions.

    Very honestly, I hope both get caught up, hard, in Mueller’s investigation.

  10. 10
  11. 11
    eclare says:

    @Elizabelle: Agree, but I question why they don’t care, at all. What have they been promised? Who do they owe?

  12. 12
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    These fuckers. Jonathan Martin was kissing Ryan’s ass on twitter as well.

    Liberal media bias.

  13. 13

    @Elizabelle: I’m rooting for treason sentences.

  14. 14
    Waspuppet says:

    Welcome to Trump University, everyone!

  15. 15
    Sab says:

    As a tax accountant I am just stunned by this bill. It’s December.We are supposed to be advising our clients about what’s in this bill and as far as I can tell there isn’t a bill yet. They passed a “bill” but it’s all wrong and they are going to fix it next week. WTF is wrong with these people?

  16. 16

    What worries me is that most people won’t see that they got screwed with their pants on until they do their 2018 taxes, which will happen in the winter of 2019, after the mid-terms. Can the Dems put out enough of a cogent and coherent message between now and November is the big question.

  17. 17
    bystander says:

    I just hope they’re all getting a very warm welcome as they return to their home districts. And that the TSA people look the other way as repubs meet their adoring crowds.

  18. 18

    @Sab: They’re not very good at their jobs.

  19. 19
    eclare says:

    @Sab: Corporate tax here, for several years Congress passed bonus depreciation retroactively, which meant we had to calc depreciation four different ways every year to be prepared for whatever was passed in December. Yay!

  20. 20

    @Mustang Bobby: Put out a simple tax calculator, let folk plug in their numbers.

  21. 21
    satby says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning ☺!

    Though reading this stuff isn’t helping the headache I woke up with.

  22. 22
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    I looked up O’Keefe’s twitter account for the period covering ACA’s passage.

    This is gonna be a shock, but he didn’t post any congratulations to Reid or Pelosi or to the skinny community organizer with the funny mooslim name, who came from a broken family, and used to live above Harold’s Chicken Shack for passing healthcare for 30 million people.

  23. 23
    Shalimar says:

    @Mustang Bobby: That was pretty clearly the plan. Lie about what the bill does, make sure no one notices the first changes until 2019, and hope everyone forgets all the positive benefits for individuals will expire after the 2024 election, when Republicans will hopefully remain in charge. Democrats have to make sure people understand what really happened.

  24. 24
    NotMax says:

    My understanding is that every W-4 will need to be re-issued and re-filed come January, an expensive bureaucratic nightmare.

  25. 25
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Abbie Fielding-Smith‏ @AbbieFS

    2017 in drone warfare – strikes double in Somalia under Trump, and triple in Yemen. Check out @TBIJ’s 2017 report for detailed analysis

    Remember how “activists” used to bash Obama all the time over dronze – funny how they suddenly went silent on the matter. I guess they don’t care about it anymore. Maybe they never really did care about it.

  26. 26
    Manyakitty says:

    @eclare: I can’t remember who tweeted it, but apparently a Republican staffer said the whole GOP got together and decided to cash out and run away. Such profiles in courage.

  27. 27

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: The Kremlin isn’t paying them to care about it anymore.

    There was a time when I would’ve scoffed at such cynicism, but I’m almost certain it’s true.

  28. 28

    @Shalimar: I saw our head of payroll in the cafeteria yesterday and chatted her up. The District pre-calculated the last payroll of the year because we’re off from 12/22 to 1/8, and now they’ll have to re-figure over 40,000 W-4’s and get them issued by 1/31. She was not a happy camper.

  29. 29
    eclare says:

    @Manyakitty: Then take government back and hike the estate tax.

  30. 30
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Just when you thought it couldn’t get worse: Bill de Blasio is in Iowa testing the waters for a presidential run. He gave a speech sayin he’s the only true progressive and everyone else is a sellout.

    I can remember a time when Dems ran against each other based on who had the better platform. Now, it’s a version of McCarthyism; declare yourself a patriot and denounce all others as traitors.


  31. 31
    Amir Khalid says:

    I’ve watched with some fascination the secretive and slapdash fashion in which this tax legislation was put together, and the openly corrupt buying of key Senators’ votes. I wonder if any lawyer jackals have something to say about the legality of that last. (The morality of it is of course obvious.)

    It’s an understandable error for a Gentile.

  32. 32
    eclare says:

    @Manyakitty: Didn’t mean to come off as harsh toward you, let’s take government back and hike the rates. Coffee slowly seeping in.

  33. 33
    satby says:

    Normally I would be happy that this nightmare of a year is almost over, but next year promises to continue the horror.

  34. 34
    Feathers says:

    I hope there are people coming to the airport to hiss at Sen Collins when she arrives back home. I’d consider driving up from Boston, but I’m flying south for Christmas.

    I have this vision of them all being hissed at everywhere, like Mme. de Merteuil AKA Glenn Close at the end of Dangerous Liasons. I’ve always thought that none of the adaptations have done justice to the complexity of her character. A woman who presents herself as being the most virtuous in Paris, and the arbiter of what and who should be considered moral, all the while living a secret life of debuachery. I love the detail from the book that she hired only servants who she had evidence on that could send them to the gallows.

    Reminds you of a certain political party, eh?

  35. 35
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @mai naem mobile: Democrats aren’t like that though. The most we can expect if Democrats take over Congress in 2018 is that Trump (or whatever person replaces him if Mueller brings him down) will be stopped from passing any further legislation. Democrats don’t appear to be vengeful folk.

  36. 36
    Manyakitty says:

    @eclare: What a simple idea! Super. (Snaps fingers) Woohoo! Done! Happy now asshole?

  37. 37
    Manyakitty says:

    @eclare: Okay then, apologies for my super snarky response. Still trying to motivate myself out of bed. Peace.

  38. 38
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    and the openly corrupt buying of key Senators’ votes. I wonder if any lawyer jackals have something to say about the legality of that last.

    A long and time honored tradition of American governance.

  39. 39
    Immanentize says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: @(((CassandraLeo))): Reading these two together, it made me think that I now see why the Republicans are always saying Soros pays protesters and voters…. Always projection with these guys. I do thInk Greenwald ought to be asked about the drone crisis….

  40. 40
    satby says:

    An entire country suffering from PTSD, what could go wrong?

    Especially considering all the firepower floating around.

  41. 41
    Immanentize says:

    @satby: Speaking of PTSD, did you give notice yesterday as you said you might?

  42. 42


    I do thInk Greenwald ought to be asked about the drone crisis….

    I’m sure that GG will say, “Drones, what drones”.

  43. 43
    Amir Khalid says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:

    Bill de Blasio’s mayoral record does show signs of progressivism, and he appears to be a decent public-sector senior executive. So I think he’d make a credible candidate for POTUS. Is he claiming to be The Only True Progressive? The couple of stories about his Iowa speech that I’ve just looked over don’t mention that at all. They only report that he shows up in Iowa a lot for an out-of-state pol, which has made observers sceptical of his disavowal of presidential ambition.

  44. 44
    Chyron HR says:


    I believe the standard excuse is, “Democrats are the only ones who should be criticized for doing X because they’re supposed to be better.”

  45. 45
    satby says:

    @Immanentize: I did. The second doctor was there, so I told her and texted the primary doctor. I felt bad about bollixing her day off, but I gave them a four week notice. I haven’t heard from the office manager at all, probably because she knows she’s why I gave notice.
    It’s a sad situation, but I am not a shrink and it’s not my circus to fix.

  46. 46
    debbie says:

    Well, it turns out it was a good idea not to be with my Trumpie family members this holiday. It would have gotten very ugly.

  47. 47
    debbie says:

    Question: When they take back individual tax cuts in 2025, will that be for everyone or just the middle and working classes?

  48. 48
    satby says:

    @debbie: I avoid all Trumpites at all times I can. I’m not the dumbfuck whisperer
    (that was a meme, I didn’t come up with it, but it’s my new personal motto)

  49. 49
    debbie says:


    Speaking of fire power, there was a hit and run a couple of days ago. The driver stopped, started backing up, but some clown with a concealed carry license started firing at the car, and the driver took off. They’re still looking for him/her.

    I’m hoping Kay sees this. I want to know who to complain to. This is a clear case of CCW being bogus.

  50. 50
    satby says:

    @debbie: news has reported just middle and working class.

  51. 51
    mike in dc says:

    @Manyakitty: If the Democrats win back the Senate, it won’t be just Paul Ryan who “retires”. Mitch will be blamed for the loss and will be a goner as leader. If he sticks around, he’ll be more vulnerable than ever in 2020.

  52. 52
    eclare says:

    @Manyakitty: No worries, hard to find motivation some days.

  53. 53
    satby says:

    @debbie: when I see open carry nutjobs I try to leave the area of I’m not stuck working, because they all think they’re Dirty Harry and are really looking forward to the day they can shoot someone. I’m not going to be collateral damage if I can avoid it.

  54. 54
    Kay says:

    Well, we’ll all have to get ready for Round Two. Because this isn’t Paul Ryan’s dream. Stealing Medicare and Social Security from young people is Paul Ryan’s dream. They’ll replace them with cheap, shoddy privatized programs so their donors can skim 10% off the top because God forbid we should have something reliable that works.

    So rest up! This is just round one of the looting. When Paul Ryan was attending that public college that was established with a federal grant and funded by the public, his dream wasn’t cutting taxes. It was eradicating the same public programs that put him where he is. Every single one of these people benefited from publicly-funded programs- all of their careers and lifestyles came about because someone other than them paid for the programs and institutions and public benefits they’re now looting. They just don’t want to pay for anyone else who comes after them.

  55. 55
    debbie says:


    I want there to be legislation about liability. If one of these clowns hits a passerby, they need to pay for the damage they cause.

  56. 56
    satby says:

    @debbie: that’s a good idea, but it won’t help anyone killed by one of those dopes.
    And nine times out of ten, they’re looking to execute someone for a property crime.

  57. 57
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: That’s all you want? Hell’s Bells, you are some kind of libertarian compared to me.

  58. 58
    mike in dc says:

    @Kay: Can they cut entitlements through reconciliation? If not, no way it happens. If so, then the pressure on the half dozen or so “moderate” Republicans has to be enormous. All 8 incumbents facing re-election in 2018 should be targeted based on how they vote.

  59. 59
    rikyrah says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:
    I don’t think that they ever cared about it. Just cared that there was a Black Man in the White House.😒😒

  60. 60
    rikyrah says:

    Joy Reid tweeted that.

  61. 61

    Good morning, everyone.

    Someone mentioned, I think on an earlier thread, that we need to make a tax calculator available as part of the campaign in 2018. CNN already has one.

  62. 62
    debbie says:


    I know they’re cretins, but I’d like to think it might give them something to think about.


    No, it’s not all I want, but I have to work with what I have, which is Ohio.

  63. 63
    rikyrah says:

    @Patricia Kayden:
    They better learn how to be vengeful, cause the base out here?
    We are vengeful as phuck.
    I have no interest whatsoever in moving on.
    These muthaphuckas 😠 supported treason against this country, and I want our pound of flesh.
    They better wake the phuck up.

  64. 64
    rikyrah says:

    You are leaving?

  65. 65
    rikyrah says:

    You are right, Kay.. Absolutely right.

  66. 66

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    Someone mentioned, I think on an earlier thread, that we need to make a tax calculator available as part of the campaign in 2018.

    (Waves @ Cheryl.)

  67. 67
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @debbie: It’s way better than Misery. One doesn’t even need a permit for concealed carry here anymore. Working with only what I have I want a car to backfire in the local Walmart parking lot and for all the nutjobs to pull their pieces and blow each other away because all they see are bad guys with guns and somehow someway they miraculously miss all the innocent bystanders. I know it is far more likely they will shoot the one black guy* working there collecting carts.

    * every time I see him, I wonder how it is he came to be here

  68. 68
  69. 69
    satby says:

    @rikyrah: my job? Yes.
    The market has filled whatever earning gap leaving would create, and the constant annoyance is making me crazy and crabby. I will offer to help out in a crisis (i.e. someone being hospitalized) after I have a staycation, AFTER my trip next month. But I’m trying to help them hire more people, since the manager has been looking fruitlessly for 6 months, and if I can accomplish that they should be ok.
    Edited to add: they interviewed one I prescribed yesterday, she sounded good to me, but if they hired her without checking references again you’re going to read about an ugly homicide in a mall doctor’s office.

  70. 70
    rikyrah says:

    Trump White House repeats lie about Trump’s tax returns

  71. 71
    Steeplejack says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch:

    And don’t forget that crooked Hillary was 10 times the hawk that Trump would be.

  72. 72
    Xentik says:

    Ugh, this makes me sick to my stomach. They’ve really decided that driving off the cliff with the hope of golden parachutes provided by their billionaire buddies is better than actually governing.

    I wish someone would put up a site allowing people to pledge a portion of their “tax break” to the democrats for 2018. I know personally my SO and I benefit in the short term significantly, and I consider that ill-gotten gains. I bet the Democrats could simultaneously raise awareness and fundraise a significant amount going into the midterms that way.

  73. 73
    Kay says:

    @mike in dc:

    Oh, I agree. That will be a good fight. Looking forward to it.

    The preening, vain deficit peacocks will have to settle their ruffled plumage by cutting to make up for this huge give-away and there’s only a few big pots of money left. They’re coming for those. I don’t think they’ll succeed but that’s Round Two. The 1.5 trillion they’re in the hole is AFTER they counted in the programs they will gut for the people they don’t care about. They haven’t accounted for the 1.5 trillion yet.

    Collins seems to be saying that people who said she got snookered are sexist. I’d just like to make it clear I never thought she got snookered. She lied to her constituents deliberately. Knowingly. I’m not sure why she thinks that’s better, but it is what happened so I agree with her. She’s as big a crook as any of the men.

  74. 74

    @rikyrah: Whenever Trump says “Believe Me*”, he’s lying.

    *He says it alot.

  75. 75
    debbie says:


    I know. It’s absolutely maddening.

  76. 76
    MJS says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: The Democrats will need to come up with something better than that. No one, Democrat, Republican, or Independent, is going to vote in 2018 based on what may happen in 2027. Instead, the Democrats have to tie this bill to every bad thing that happens in the economy from the day it’s signed until election day. Retailers closing countless stores? It’s because of this bill. Economy not at 3% growth in January, 2018? It’s because of this bill. You lost your health insurance? It’s because of this bill. You didn’t get a raise this year? It’s because of this bill. Your kid has astronomical college debt? Blame this bill. And so on, and so on. In ads, on the talking head shows, in town halls, campaign events, everywhere.

  77. 77
    randy khan says:

    @Mustang Bobby:

    Considering that most people already think this bill is a giant flaming disaster, I’m not as worried as I might be about the perception of it as a tax cut.

  78. 78
    Quinerly says:

    Morning chuckle. Wonder why she bolted from a baby Koch?:

  79. 79

    @MJS: I agree Democrats need to tie every bad thing to this legislation and Republicans, however folk need to see how the numbers effect their bottom line.

  80. 80

    @MJS: Of course. But it’s starting.

  81. 81
    satby says:

    @MJS: and yet, will it matter in parts of the country where they would rather rip up paved roads instead of paying a dime more in taxes to maintain them?

  82. 82
    Kay says:


    Remember when media told us they would stay on those tax returns until Trump was shamed into releasing them?

    They’ve spent more time post-election talking about Hillary Clinton’s emails than they have Trump’s tax returns.

    He’s getting a huge tax cut (and so are Ivanka and Jared) but no one will be able to verify that or use it to discredit them because they simply refuse to release anything- which they got away with. So the daily lies from the sleazy, corrupt Trump Family will continue.

    If we ever get rid of these people the first order of business should be to pass some enforceable laws or regulations requiring public disclosure of ordinary records by the President and the President’s family. And Congress. The next time these multi-millionaires give themselves a tax cut on the backs of everyone else we need to see the returns.

  83. 83
    Steeplejack says:

    I’m feeling a bit gloomy this morning. I went to bed early (for me) last night after watching Rachel Maddow and then Lawrence O’Donnell dissect the tax bill in horrifying detail. O’Donnell and one of his panelists made the point that this is in some ways a turning point, because for the first time the GOP pols are not just enriching their backers but are blatantly gorging themselves at the trough, and doing it all in defiance of their own “fiscal responsibility” rhetoric.

    So I went to bed—and woke up—feeling like this is some sort of a turning point. Maybe not exactly the Reichstag fire, but something in that vicinity. This is the first major “real” thing the Republicans have done, and it is going to have real consequences going into 2018—many of them unforeseen because of the secretive and slipshod manner in which the bill was produced.

    Well, okay. I’ll get through the holidays and then pick up the resistance in the new year. Voting rights and voter registration are going to be my focus.

    As for today, I’m stepping away from the news. I don’t need to see the Republicans’ orgy of self-congratulation or Trump’s press conference in real time. Ugh. I’ll catch the “highlights” later.

    Bro’ Man has the rest of the week off, and we’re making an expedition to IKEA this morning. I don’t know exactly what he’s looking for, but I’m just going along for the ride. Always like looking at all the stuff. Might pick up a little chairside table like the one I have with a damaged top. Maybe Mexican for lunch. Life goes on.

  84. 84
  85. 85
    randy khan says:


    I’m confident we’re going to see that. And when the Republicans go after Medicare and Social Security, you can be sure that the Dems will say that they’re only doing it because of all the money they just shoved into the wallets of rich people.

  86. 86
    rikyrah says:

    Virginia Democrat Shelly Simonds on historic single-vote win

  87. 87
    Nicole says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Bill de Blasio’s mayoral record does show signs of progressivism, and he appears to be a decent public-sector senior executive. So I think he’d make a credible candidate for POTUS. Is he claiming to be The Only True Progressive? The couple of stories about his Iowa speech that I’ve just looked over don’t mention that at all. They only report that he shows up in Iowa a lot for an out-of-state pol, which has made observers sceptical of his disavowal of presidential ambition.

    Unfortunately, it’s also had a lot of investigations into his acceptance of campaign contributions for favors and his weird anti-carriage horse campaign, which was funded by a real estate mogul (the stables the horses live in are on what has turned into very valuable West Side property). The majority of the city was opposed to getting rid of the horses, it would have taken away a couple hundred solidly middle class union jobs, but he was determined to do this (he refused to meet with the carriage drivers or visit the stables). It eventually fell apart, but it was just really weird, the way the whole thing went down. Hell, he wasn’t on the election radar until a group funded by this real estate guy suddenly targeted Christine Quinn, because she said the horses should stay. Then the airwaves were flooded with “Anyone But Quinn” ads.

    I have mixed feelings about his record (I favor the pre-K expansion, I oppose the continual sell-off of our public libraries, and, as a horse lover, I support the NYC carriage industry, which is really well regulated), but I think he’s probably just as corrupt as the rest of them. The real estate industry here in NYC is really, really dirty. You can’t get involved with it and not get soiled. Unsurprisingly, a lot of wealthy Russians have a lot of money in it.

  88. 88
    Kay says:

    Did Ivanka get her subsidy for upper middle class child care? I’ll check the NYTimes later. I’m sure her publicist has a piece up.

  89. 89

    @Kay: A year ago, Mr DAW’s employer got him to retire by offering to pay him and provide health insurance for all this year. We are now setting up various insurance accounts on our own for the first time. Medicare A&B were easy and efficient. The private insurance companies providing Medigap, vision, dental, and part D were complicated and mistake ridden. When the Rs rhapsodize about how much better privatization would make everything, my blood pressure rise. Fortunately, that’s (currently) covered by Medicare.

  90. 90
    rikyrah says:

    Morning to Poco and the tribe 😄😻

  91. 91
    Sab says:

    @Kay: You are the voice of reason in my crazy world. Sorry to lay that on you but it is what it is.

  92. 92
    Steeplejack says:


    I’m getting ready to go out, so I can’t look it up right now, but some pundit wag ran the numbers with the Republicans’ wildly optimistic predictions about economic growth and concluded that as a side effect Social Security would become solvent by 2026. Crisis averted!

  93. 93
    Kay says:


    So I went to bed—and woke up—feeling like this is some sort of a turning point. Maybe not exactly the Reichstag fire, but something in that vicinity. This is the first major “real” thing the Republicans have done, and it is going to have real consequences going into 2018—many of them unforeseen because of the secretive and slipshod manner in which the bill was produced.

    I feel that too and I think it’s helpful to accept that it’s bad and go from there. It just is. This was the reward, the pay off, for supporting Trump and now that they’ve been rewarded it will get worse. I don’t see any point in pretending it’s not bad. This has gotten worse every month he’s in office and nothing has happened to change that trajectory. I’m assuming the worst, settling with that, and going forward. The gutting of Medicare and Medicaid that is coming is a good issue for us. We can win that. Will win that. They haven’t funded SCHIP because they’re planning on using that as the opening salvo in gutting entitlements. Democrats have won on SCHIP before. They slaughtered Bush on it. So the fight will be more favorable to our side after the campaign to gut starts, here shortly.

  94. 94
    japa21 says:

    @Steeplejack: That is interesting. So if their tax bill does what they say it will do, no need to do anything to SS (which doesn’t contribute to the debt anyway). So if they look to change SS, then they are admitting they lied about the tax bill.

  95. 95
    Steeplejack says:


    Exactly! Nothing they say is connected to anything else. It’s just what they need to say in the moment.

  96. 96
    Kay says:


    Thank you – that’s nice. I’m really mad but I have to calm down because I have guests for Christmas and one of them is an exchange student and my sense at Thanksgiving was he’s a little bewildered by the anti-Trump talk in my family. It’s like a guest who comes at “a bad time”- it’s a bad time for the country but this is the time he’s here and I want him to enjoy it.

    You know when you go somewhere and people say “this place used to be better- you missed it”? I don’t want this boy to feel like that.

  97. 97
    japa21 says:

    @Kay: Here is my main concern. Many people will see minor benefits from this bill to begin with. They won’t be as dramatic as what the GOP states, but there will be some. So can the GOP convince them this POS is really gold? They have done it before.

    Remember, under Obama there was a real cut in taxes, but the GOP convinced the voters that taxes were actually increased.

    It will all come down to who are the better salespeople, the Dems or the GOP. History does not make me optimistic.

  98. 98
    Kathleen says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: Should we start compiling the Official BJ Quisling List to document the Mainslime Media Handmaids?

  99. 99
    JMG says:

    @japa21: People don’t believe Washington cuts their taxes no matter which party is in power. The one thing the American voter never expresses is gratitude. And anyway, the cuts for those who aren’t making at least 75K a year in 2018 will be hard to see. $400 a year sounds like a lot on TV. It’s less than eight bucks a week. That’s not even an extra pizza a week. This will only fuel the well-grounded suspicion the wealthy are getting all the benefits.

  100. 100
    Kay says:


    But the Obama perception of raising taxes goes toward the idea that it’s perception (not reality) and so far we’re winning that.

    Taxes have been removed from reality a long time. A lot of the people who bitch about high taxes don’t pay federal income taxes. Once a month I have people tell me they did pay or don’t want to pay “the death tax” and they will never have to pay a “death tax” because they have hardly any property or assets. A lot of them will literally die with consumer or mortgage debt or unpaid property taxes. “I want that to go to my children”. That’s nice but since you don’t own it I don’t see that happening.

    It just isn’t grounded in reality which often helps conservatives politically but so far in this instance it’s hurting them and it always had the capacity to hurt them. “Taxes” has turned into a term of art that describes a set of grievances and political beliefs. It’s malleable.

  101. 101
    A Ghost To Most says:

    Savage groin punches to all these fascists. For starters.

  102. 102
    germy says:

    This should play well in Iowa:

    De Blasio wasn’t the only New Yorker in town. Around a dozen officers from the city’s largest police union, the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association, traveled to Des Moines to protest at the mayor’s appearance. The PBA and de Blasio have clashed frequently throughout his mayoralty, with the relationship reaching a low point in 2014, when the union encouraged members to turn their backs on him at the funerals of cops killed in the line of duty. They’re currently engaged in stalled contract talks. “Wherever he goes, we’re going to go,” said a PBA representative.

  103. 103
    manyakitty says:

    @mike in dc: I can’t imagine how any of them plan to move around in public. I bet they hired extra security.

  104. 104
    Rob in CT says:


    I think what helped the GOP convince people the Obamamonster had raised their taxes was the fact that municipalities & states did have to raise taxes because, unlike the Feds, they have to balance their budgets (or use up reserves, if they have ’em). So the stimulus included a cut to FICA taxes (instead of sending people a check like the Republicans did with the Bush tax cuts), and meanwhile people’s property taxes and sales taxes and/or state income taxes went up. Republicans lied, as they do, and were able to get people to conflate one with the other.

  105. 105
    Hunter says:

    “. . . he’s done nothing but kibbutz . . . ”

    Uh — should be “kibbitz” — a kibbutz is something else entirely.

  106. 106
    Quinerly says:

    @rikyrah: Poco still be snoozing. Tribe having breakfast. Little Ivan feeling poorly. Vet said if his kidneys deteriorated as much between Oct and January as they did between June and October, he would be suffering come the holiday season. I think we are reaching that point. But he still is eating well and comes when called. Just moving slowly and has lost that little bit of weight he put on in October. It’s so sad…but he has had a great life after such a horrible start. Hope you have a good day. Glad to hear your sister is doing better.

  107. 107
    manyakitty says:

    @rikyrah: Ah, thank you! Glad I read it from a reliable source.

  108. 108
    Amir Khalid says:

    If I remember right. it was the Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association whose president called Bruce Springsteen a “floating fag”, whatever that is, for writing a song about the unwarranted shooting of Amadou Diallo. Charming bunch, they are.

  109. 109
  110. 110
    germy says:

    @Amir Khalid: We agree the benevolent association are assholes, but the Fine People® of the midwest will be puzzled and alarmed every time Mr. De Blasio shows up to woo them, trailed by protesting policemen.

  111. 111
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: You should ask him why the discrepancy. The MSM keeps fawning over Republicans no matter how awful their policies are for the majority of Americans.

  112. 112
    A Ghost To Most says:

    @Amir Khalid: Yep. The head of the NYPD PBA is a real fascist asshole.

  113. 113
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @germy: So cops are harassing DeBlasio because he acknowledged the pain felt by his Black constituents when Eric Garner was choked to death by an officer (who got off scotfree). Good to know.

  114. 114
    Patricia Kayden says:

    @germy: The fine people of the Midwest have access to news stories just like the rest of us yokels.

  115. 115
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:


    Maybe not exactly the Reichstag fire, but something in that vicinity. This is the first major “real” thing the Republicans have done, and it is going to have real consequences going into 2018—many of them unforeseen because of the secretive and slipshod manner in which the bill was produced.

    I think it’s a sign the GOP is collectively slid off into dementia. I mean even back in the Gilded Age of all things the Pols knew better than to do things actively damaging to the country while they were looting it.

    See if the House will stomach the bill the Senate tossed back on them. This might be a giant game of legislative chicken and the Senate deliberately screwed the bill to force the Freedum Caucus to take the blame this time.

  116. 116
    mai naem mobile says:

    I know this isn’t anything new but this Quinnipiac poll released yesterday scaring the GOP a little:
    Quinnipiac isn’t some left wing polling organization. I don’t think Dolt45’s approval rating has gone above 40% period. And how long will he hold the GOP before that number starts dropping.

  117. 117
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: Their finger prints are all over it. They will all take the blame for it.

  118. 118
    Dave says:

    @Patricia Kayden: I can’t think of a single group in modern America that reacts to any external, hell even internal, criticism implied/valid/mild with the sort of aggressive rage as law enforcement does. Not only do too many of them view criticism as inherently invalid but that any critic must be destroyed. Obviously this is a generalization as there are exceptions but yeah.

  119. 119
    Vheidi says:

    @Amir Khalid: no no no. He’s lazy and self-indulgent. Late for memorial services, has to work out at his Brooklyn YMCA. His progressive creds are good, but better employed as advisor, strategist, I think.

  120. 120
    NotMax says:

    Disgusting display.

    Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin was on the Senate floor during the vote, shaking hands and exchanging congratulations with Republican senators…. Source

  121. 121
    chopper says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    wish these calculators could include the effect on insurance premiums from the post-mandate death spiral.

  122. 122
    d58826 says:

    We’re witnessing the wholesale looting of America
    Unchecked by norms or political prudence, it’s smash-and-grab time for the GOP.
    By Matthew Dec 19, 2017, 8:40am EST

    DEPRESSING READ. It will be interesting when these oh-so self proclaimed followers of Jesus have to face Saint Peter and have to explain what part of ‘that which you fail to do for the least of my children you do to me’ they did not understand. Could be a very uncomfortable conversation

  123. 123
    rp says:

    @Nicole: I’m confused. I thought animal lovers HATED the carriages because the horses aren’t treated well.

  124. 124
    Amir Khalid says:

    Okay. So he’s not such a great executive. I’d expect all that to come out if and when he does declare for president.

  125. 125
    NotMax says:

    “We’re gonna need a lot more wrapping paper to get so many horse heads ready for delivery.”

    Still smarting from having to cast the first U.S. veto in the United Nations Security Council in six years on Monday, Haley is pressing other countries not to support a resolution in the larger General Assembly critical of President Trump’s decision to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel and move the American embassy there from Tel Aviv, according to four UN diplomats.

    In a letter to some countries — including key U.S. allies — Haley warned that “the president will be watching this vote carefully and has requested I report back on those countries who voted against us. We will take note of each and every vote on this issue.” The letter was shared with Bloomberg News by one UN ambassador and confirmed by three others.

    One diplomat said his country’s mission was told that its vote on the resolution, expected to pass the General Assembly by a wide margin, would be taken “personally” by Haley.
    The diplomats said Haley’s letter would have little impact on their vote. Source

  126. 126
    Amir Khalid says:

    Who taught Nikki Haley diplomacy, Doug and Dinsdale Piranha?

  127. 127
    oatler. says:

    Oh, don’t ever change, Chuck!
    Chuck Todd‏Verified account
    Dec 17
    Big news week means a big @MeetThePress this Sunday morning. I’ll speak to @Sen_JoeManchin, @JohnKasich, & @Marcshort45. Join us for #MTP.

  128. 128
    sixthdoctor says:

    I know I can’t wait for the many articles about Trump voters discussing how they got screwed by this bill, but at their bake sales to raise money for EpiPens previously supplied by CHIP, they’ll still give Trump a chance…

  129. 129
    bemused says:


    I do think a majority of Americans are suffering from trump/gop PTSD. We go about our business trying to enjoy all the good things in our lives but we can’t ignore the fresh hell that greets us every damn day. I wonder if we will ever be able to look forward to relatively boring political news days while knowing there are that at least there is a majority of competent and productive people running the country.

    This week I had a dream that various groups of people we didn’t know just showed up at our home and yard at different intervals and wouldn’t leave. They just showed up and proceeded to act as if they had a right to come in, take over our household, make demands and use our things, etc. This went on and on. Just when we thought we had gotten rid of them, more showed up again. That was when I woke up and after I calmed down, I thought this has to be a dream about vile Republicans taking over our country

  130. 130
    rikyrah says:


    With the MSM not really telling the horror that this bill is…


    Think on that.

    The only people they can find to support it, BEFORE, the horrors are TRULY revealed, are the Crazy ‘Hitler in the bunker’ people.
    People KNOW what’s in this bill. Every poll tells us that the public has been hipped to its horrors. And the ignorant sliver ‘ undecided’ will get it soon enough

  131. 131
    rikyrah says:

    Here we go again…the CRAZYFICATION FACTOR.

    Despite the MSM’s efforts to give cover to the GOP, I am shocked at the level of accuracy in the opinions of the public about the GOP Tax Scam.

    The ignorant ‘undecided’ will soon crash into reality.


    Poll: Trump and GOP never intended to strike a bipartisan deal.

    As Republicans rush their tax bill to the House and Senate floors for a final round of votes, a new poll shows that Americans do not believe that the GOP, in crafting the controversial legislation, reached out in good faith to Democrats.

    Only 27% say Republicans and President Trump sought meaningful input from their partisan opponents on Capitol Hill, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS. More than six-in-10 respondents said the opposite.

    Republican officials in Washington, who are expected to pass the bill and send it to the White House late Wednesday, have accused Democrats of shutting down any across-the-aisle overtures. Moderate Democrats, including a few up for election next year in red states, were once thought to be amenable to a compromise. But the GOP never came close, or appeared to make much of an effort, to enlist their ideas or votes.

    Democrats, for their part, are deeply skeptical that this massive, top-heavy tax cut will deliver the broad economic benefits promised by Republicans. They have duly rejected every version of the proposal en masse for favoring the wealthy and adding more than $1 trillion to the federal debt.

  132. 132
    Hoodie says:

    I would like to think the gop will pay a price for this gang bang, but I’m afraid it Is designed for the worst type of cynical short term thinking and may enable them to maintain a firewall. The best way of using this may be the corruption/self dealing angle. The fact that this bill is a disaster as far as long term economic effects may be lost on a lot of people when they see that, initially, they got a tax cut.

  133. 133
    gene108 says:


    worry-wondered who the first to decry Senator Jones as a neoliberal corporatist tool and ask for a primary challenge.

    A large number of people want d to believe the Black Man in Their White House was up to no good, even if what he said and did was the polar opposite.

    There was the run to buy all the guns and ammo back in 2008, when Obama got elected, even though candidate Obama said he was not going to touch gun control.

    Or the number of people who thought he as a Kenyan-born-Islamo-fascist-super-secret-Muslim. Or the number of people, who were not happy with the economy, in 2016, who became quite satisfied, when Teump got elected.

    I hope without Obama and the racism that denoted opposition to him, people will not be as ready to believe alternative reality.

  134. 134
    Formerly disgruntled in Oregon says:

    @oatler.: All this and less, this Sunday on NBC’s Meet The Republicans!

  135. 135
    MCA1 says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: The way to do that is to show (a) “Here’s what you get” with a picture of a cup of coffee, and then (b) “Here’s what (fill in the blank – Bob Corker, DJT, any Wall Street MOTU, etc.) gets” with a dollar sign followed by an 8 digit number. Then, “Sound fair to you?”

    Americans KNOW economic inequality is a huge problem in their society. They just don’t have the proper level of outrage about it/direct their nagging concerns about it the right direction. Democrats need to point them down the right path.

  136. 136
    NotMax says:


    And Louis Gohmert as The Beaver.

  137. 137
    Ksmiami says:

    @Kay: warm up the tumbrels

  138. 138
    TenguPhule says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    Who taught Nikki Haley diplomacy, Doug and Dinsdale Piranha?

    The Vogons, presumably.

  139. 139
    debbie says:


    Jesus, she’s become the new Omarosa!

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