Late Night Russiagate Open Thread: He’s Doing This for Future About-to-Be Indicted Presidents!

Raise your hand if you’re old enough to remember still-nominally-President Nixon, at the height of the Watergate investigation, insisting that he was only stonewalling release of various CREEPster conspiratorial documents and RNC receipts to professional bagmen because he “feared” setting a precedent that would “unduly restrict” the actions of future Oval Office residents. The rest of you can easily infer that the tactic didn’t work — but also, it was widely mocked at the time, even by otherwise sympathetic centrist-right critics.

If the squatting Oval Office Occupant’s legal team is trying the same tactic, I’m convinced that (a) They’re desperate enough to be reading up on Watergate, and (b) They’re not smart enough — or have so few other choices available — that “trying the case in the media” has become their last resort.

Part of a most informative twitter thread from Renato Mariotti, who is a lawyer, and from all reports a damned good prosecutor:


165 replies
  1. 1

    If the squatting Oval Office Occupant’s legal team is trying the same tactic, I’m convinced that (a) They’re desperate enough to be reading up on Watergate…

    Please. Like they can read.

  2. 2
    NobodySpecial says:

    Perhaps they should have used a secure server like Hillary’s.

  3. 3
    NotMax says:

    Had sort of forgotten until now that Nixon offered a “compromise” to try to wiggle out of being charged with and fined for contempt.

    Have Sen. John Stennis (D-MS), all by his lonesome, listen to White House tapes.

    Stennis, then 72, was known for being extremely hard of hearing.

    Cox all but told Nixon to go suck eggs on that one.

  4. 4
    hitchhiker says:

    It’s inconceivable to me that the people on that transition team are innocent of corruption, dishonesty, and greed.

    Inconceivable. It’s also inconceivable that they’re savvy enough to cover their tracks. They aren’t savvy — just wealthy enough to have been able to buy/bribe their way out of past misdeeds.

    Think about what was on their minds immediately after they “won.” Russia and the end of sanctions! In their minds, Russian oligarchs were at the very top of the list of people to work with — their kind of folks, with a shit ton of money and a strong desire to get lots more.

    Imagine the Mueller lawyers poring over those communications. I bet they felt the need to shower frequently.

  5. 5
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @ renato_mariotti
    9/ One reason comes to mind. Mueller was concerned that he wouldn’t receive all of the emails if he obtained them from the Trump team. That’s surprising and suggests that he has reason to distrust Trump’s team.

    this is not surprising, and… ya think?

  6. 6
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Desperate…and utterly incompetent. Just like the vile shitgibbon that is their client.

  7. 7
    Corner Stone says:

    I fucking hate twit storms. Say what you have to say in 3 or 4 or post a fucking blog.

  8. 8
    lamh36 says:

    Mueller spokesman Peter Carr statement defending the special counsel’s work: “When we have obtained emails in the course of our ongoing criminal investigation, we have secured either the account owner’s consent or appropriate criminal process.” politi.co/2BkhbED @politico

    https://twitter.com/dsamuelsohn/status/942272541716090880

  9. 9
    Corner Stone says:

    “Hey babe, let’s take a walk on the bile side!”

    What does this even mean? Where does it come from?

  10. 10
    NotMax says:

    @Corner Stone

    Preach it, brother!

    Brevity is the soul of twit.

  11. 11

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist: From my experience working with lawyers on discovery, they usually don’t expect the opposition to outright hide documents. They may withhold on privilege or work product, but not outright not produce. That’s a quick way to become and ex-lawyer serving time.

  12. 12
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    “Inappropriately” is pretty weak tea, I must say. Not the same thing as “illegal”. Pure politics.

    Truly the greatest legal minds since the Founding Fathers!

  13. 13
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    This whole knew scenario is pretty damn significant, I think, including the “fix” that was supposed to be in (but wasn’t) with now-deceased Beckler at the GSA. Seems quite likely to me to be more significant than the Flynn and Manafort indictments.

    Pot may be starting to boil, I just wonder if this fascist scum admin will take the step of firing Mueller and shutting this down before more can be done to them. I think they’ll get away with it if they do (though not without a lot of turmoil, whatever that may mean) because really, who’s gonna stop them? Only Congress has that power since it would ultimately be a Presidential act (or set of acts, probably, forcing compliance from the Justice Department). This Congress has too many Republicans for impeachment to work, and that’s the only check on the President doing such a thing (till the 2020 election, of course).

    Massive political crisis in such case, but I think the primary lesson today’s Republicans got from Watergate was to close ranks with a sitting Republican president no matter what.

    Hope I’m wrong.

  14. 14
    NotMax says:

    @BillinGlendaleCA

    In Dolt 45 world, a quick way to be nominated to the bench.

    ;)

  15. 15
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    Massive political crisis in such case, but I think the primary lesson today’s Republicans got from Watergate was to close ranks with a sitting Republican president no matter what.

    Hope I’m wrong.

    They won’t get away with it. We can’t let them. There will be demonstrations and we will not be ignored. The rule of law has to mean something and no one is above the law, especially not the President. If there has to be a revolution there will be a revolution to right this wrong.

    Closing ranks will only hasten the GOP’s demise. Whether that’s by elections or not is up to them.

  16. 16
    clay says:

    And who was in charge of the transition, hmmmm?

    Why, I believe it was the squinty-eyed Ken doll himself, one Michael J. Pence.

  17. 17

    @NotMax: OT: Was it you that recommended Obit.?

  18. 18
    Elie says:

    @hitchhiker:
    They know our country is in the midst of a coup by an international crime syndicate. I have no doubt Mueller knows, as does his team, that they are a key part of saving the republic. WE are the other part. It will be our political most important work of our lifetimes and we will be asked much and bear witness to much if we are to be successful. BTW, do any of you think that Mueller may have an indictment up his sleeve for any members of Congress? Well that would blow up a bunch of shit but to me it is absolutely likely that one or more of these folks are deeply involved

  19. 19
    hitchhiker says:

    @lamh36:

    Mueller spokesman Peter Carr statement defending the special counsel’s work: “When we have obtained emails in the course of our ongoing criminal investigation, we have secured either the account owner’s consent or appropriate criminal process.”

    Hilariously, Carr managed to include the word, “criminal” twice in once statement. What do you think, is he saying that they got the consent of the GSA (account owner) instead of getting a subpoena?

  20. 20
    Chet Murthy says:

    @hitchhiker: Hm … In that quote I understood “account owner” to mean the TFA official owning the account, and “appropriate criminal process” as “serving appropriate warrant to GSA to obtain records”. Thus, GSA is not the “account owner” but rather the administrator or whatever. And yeah, I think he’s saying “we got a warrant, you thugs”.

  21. 21
    patrick II says:

    Trump didn’t bother to nominate a new head of GSA until Sept 1 of this year, so whoever turn was managing the GSA when Mueller asked for the emails and gave them over without checking with or even notifying the White House is probably one of those lifetime government workers Trump thinks so little of. I’ll bet he’s now wishing his transition team had worked a little quicker.

  22. 22
    Jay S says:

    @hitchhiker: that was explicit in the letter in response. The lawyer responding claimed the GSA did not have the authority to do it. This will be the claim for the Brooks Brothers riot response to the revelations here.

  23. 23
    fuckwit says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Holy shit. So.. let me get this straight. Troll’s team illegaly witheld documents from the prosecutor during discovery. Then were “surprised” when the prosecution didn’t trust them, and obtained the documents from another “inappropriate” (but perfectly legal) source! If that happened, now they’re in a metric fuck-ton of trouble, right? Disbarment and criminal time for not only the subjects of the investigation, but their attorneys too? Is this accurate? I know just enough law to be dangerous, but not enough to know if that’s a fair inference to make.

  24. 24
  25. 25
    Ruckus says:

    Read Renato Mariotti’s twitter account, he sounds like a good guy. Running for IL attorney general as a Dem.
    His take is a lot more informed than most of the commenters on BJ, myself for sure, he is a former federal prosecutor.

  26. 26
    mai naem mobile says:

    Whatever happened to every RW law and order nut job going on about ‘if you didn’t do anything illegal, you don’t need to worry about any LEO checking your phone,car,house etc’ when they passed the Patriot Act?

  27. 27
    Ruckus says:

    @mai naem mobile:
    I wrote earlier that republicans 2 absolute traits were IGMFY and projecting. I left out the third. Which is always important and actually a given, LYING. They lie when they don’t need to, it seems to be a genetic trait.
    So to clarify.
    1. If their lips are moving, they are lying.
    2 If their lips are moving and they are denying anything, they are projecting and lying.
    3. Their main controlling basis is “I Got Mine, Fuck You” or “I’m Getting Mine, Fuck You” That second one means they are stealing or planning to steal from someone or everyone. The first is of course that they already have stolen whatever.

  28. 28
    EBT says:

    @hitchhiker:
    https://twitter.com/HoarseWisperer/status/942237489015787521
    The Giuliani guy donnie appointed to the GSA got sick and died by the time Mueller showed up, and the acting staff produced the emails as requested.

  29. 29

    @Ruckus: You left out Cleek’s Law, but overall, that’s a good summary of the modern GOP.

    @The Dangerman: @EBT: I’m amazed at how many of these dumb motherfuckers have never watched The Wire and/or didn’t listen to Stringer Bell. Not that I’m complaining, mind you, but come on.

    https://youtu.be/pBdGOrcUEg8

  30. 30
    Millard Filmore says:

    @Corner Stone:

    “Hey babe, let’s take a walk on the bile side!”

    What does this even mean? Where does it come from?

    If this is a serious question, Lou Reed in the very early 1970s

    https://www.google.com/search?biw=1366&bih=607&ei=lRk2WtSYF4m0jwOnzIe4AQ&q=take+a+walk+on+the+wild+side+lyrics&oq=take+a+walk+on&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l10.16842.19832.0.23223.14.9.0.1.1.0.278.1392.0j1j5.6.0….0…1c.1.64.psy-ab..7.7.1446…0i67k1j0i131k1j0i131i67k1.0.0R04dlRxcvg

    EDIT: in case the link is funky, Google “take a walk on the wild side lyrics” (no quotes)

  31. 31
    patrick II says:

    @The Dangerman:

    This makes my comment, #21, inaccurate. Trump had appointed someone at GSA to protect him, (which shows guilty knowledge, and how aware and complete was his attempt to lie and obstruct) but that guy got sick and died. So the GSA staffers went ahead and fulfilled Mueller’s request without telling the White House. The revenge of the bureaucrats. Maybe god doesn’t entirely hate America after all.

  32. 32
    ericblair says:

    @EBT:

    The Giuliani guy donnie appointed to the GSA got sick and died by the time Mueller showed up, and the acting staff produced the emails as requested.

    Pro-tip: make sure your Cleaner has a yearly physical. Also, maybe we’ll hear something out of Giuliani again, because that loud mouth fascist has been uncharacteristically quiet these last few months.

    I’m also assuming that Fox News and significant parts of Congress are likely targets of a criminal investigation.

  33. 33
    eclare says:

    @(((CassandraLeo))): Agree…lot to learn from Stringer, glad they didn’t.

  34. 34

    @ericblair: I think there’s a not insignificant chance that Mueller has already flipped 9iu11ani.

  35. 35
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Sam Stein‏ @samstein

    So the crowd that asked the Russians and Wikileaks to help obtain Clinton’s emails is now upset with Mueller for obtaining emails through the General Services Administration?

    399 replies 7,744 retweets 18,408 likes

  36. 36
    danielx says:

    @clay:

    You have to admit that he has magnificent political hair.

    Matter of fact, there are many of his former constituents who to this day insist that his hair is the smartest thing about him.

  37. 37
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @(((CassandraLeo))): He’s been strangely quiet this past year. Nobody loves a camera more the Gouliani. Whenever there is a terror attack, no matter where in the world – big or small, successful or botched – he loves to park himself in front of a camera and drone on about a noun and a verb and 9/11. Yet, he switched to radio silence this entire year. His silence speaks volumes.

  38. 38
    Steeplejack says:

    Mariotti:

    Mueller was concerned that he wouldn’t receive all of the emails if he obtained them from the Trump team. That’s surprising and suggests that he has reason to distrust Trump’s team.

    That’s surprising?! Christ, Jared Kushner, just for one example, didn’t disclose everything in multiple runs at his security-clearance application.

  39. 39
    danielx says:

    @ericblair:

    Also, maybe we’ll hear something out of Giuliani again, because that loud mouth fascist has been uncharacteristically quiet these last few months.

    Been wondering about that myself; for a little while there you couldn’t get away from the slimy bastard – like seeing Kardashians on the cover of National Enquirer. I’ve been semi-confidently expecting Lord Shortfingers to name him head of DHS or something. Would Rudy like to be head of his own Gestapo? Why yes, he would, and why do you ask?

  40. 40
    Ruckus says:

    @ericblair:
    Ole Rudy might just be holed up with duct tape, that he applied, over his mouth. Because he used to stick it everywhere it didn’t belong he may have found out long ago that his continued non prison, non orange jump suit days are contingent on currently shutting the fuck up.

  41. 41
    Sanjeevs says:

    @(((CassandraLeo))): Giuliani had a big cabinet post lined up. Withdrew his name on the same day (Dec 9) that the CIA concluded Russia had helped Trump in the election. He’s been real quiet since.

  42. 42
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Trump transition team sends letter to lawmakers; claims Mueller team inappropriately obtained private documents.

    If they think Mueller did something legally incorrect, wouldn’t the appropriate venue for relief be a judge, not congress.

    Instead of filing a motion in court for sanctions or to throw out evidence, they cry to their amen choir.

  43. 43
    EBT says:

    @ericblair: My fervent hope is that he has been hiding out of extreme guilt, and fear the Mueller will send him to jail for the rest of his life.

  44. 44
  45. 45
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Please. Like they can read.

    Coloring books still count.

  46. 46
    TenguPhule says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    There will be demonstrations and we will not be ignored.

    One of those suppositions is wrong.

  47. 47
    TenguPhule says:

    @mai naem mobile:

    Whatever happened to every RW law and order nut job going on about ‘if you didn’t do anything illegal, you don’t need to worry about any LEO checking your phone,car,house etc’ when they passed the Patriot Act?

    Changed to “Gubbmint is coming to take mah GUNZ!!!” on Jan 20, 2009.

  48. 48
    rachel says:

    @Elie:
    Is The Dallas Morning News a reputable source? How about Ruth May? Some answers may be in here:
    How Putin’s proxies helped funnel millions into GOP campaigns

  49. 49
    efgoldman says:

    Tangerine Torquemada and his minions may be stupid, ignorant feral buffoons, but one thing they know: if the Dems win either house next year, the investigation will be long, deep, and honest.

    BTW, Nixon was a highly intelligent person with great political skills, but not as honest as he should have been; he was also a lawyer and a national politician for twenty-five+ years (but with awful people skills_

  50. 50
    John Fremont says:

    @NobodySpecial: Is this Baud?

  51. 51
    TenguPhule says:

    @efgoldman:

    if the Dems win either house next year, the investigation will be long, deep, and honest.

    And if there is even a sniff of bipartisan dealmaking, something is going to give.

    Because if our Democrats haven’t learned that Republicans are bad faith actors by now, they never are going to.

  52. 52
    mike in dc says:

    This meeting between Mueller and the Trump legal team becomes more fascinating every day. Will Mueller request an interview with their client? (I assume so). Will he raise an issue or question they didn’t anticipate? (Probably) Will anything he says at the meeting spook Trump further? (Maybe) Will he say anything to discourage the drive to fire him? (I honestly don’t know). Tune in every 4-6 hours for updates!

  53. 53
    Mnemosyne says:

    We started watching season 2 of “The Good Place.” I was kind of wondering how they would get a second season out of the same premise, and what they’re doing was my second guess. It continues to be enjoyable but disorienting because I recognize so many of the locations (they do a lot of shooting at the Huntington).

  54. 54
    ericblair says:

    @Sanjeevs:

    Giuliani had a big cabinet post lined up. Withdrew his name on the same day (Dec 9) that the CIA concluded Russia had helped Trump in the election. He’s been real quiet since.

    We need to keep a list of Dogs Not Barking. It would seem pretty likely that when any of these Trumped up assholes stop flapping their yaps in public, they might be doing it in private in front of Mueller’s lawyers.

  55. 55

    @Mnemosyne:

    they do a lot of shooting at the Huntington

    Horrible place to photograph, downright ugly.

  56. 56
    Millard Filmore says:

    @patrick II:

    Trump had appointed someone at GSA to protect him, (which shows guilty knowledge, and how aware and complete was his attempt to lie and obstruct)

    Gives a new perspective on why Trump was so insistent on loyalty in all his hires.

  57. 57
    Sanjeevs says:

    My hope is that the transition emails reveal how the election was stolen . The recently revealed KT McFarland email where she stares that Russia threw the election to Trump was probably part of this trove.
    Dave Bossie said that the exit polls showed Trump was down five to eight points in eight of the eleven battleground states. Yet he swept nine of those states. That just doesn’t compute. Exit polls have 3000 subjects per state. In most countries exit polls are extremely accurate.

  58. 58
    Ruckus says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    A lot of Grey’s Anatomy were shot at the VA clinic I go to. It took a long time to discover that, they used angles and long shots that made it appear a lot bigger. The key was all the TV cable that was there for years. I knew they had to be filming some show. And then one day they goofed and one shot was taken from my angle waking up to the back door. Bingo I knew what show it was and could pick out exactly how the did almost all the shots of any public spaces. It looks different when you know.

  59. 59
    Mike J says:

    @Mnemosyne: It’s my favorite current show. Hate waiting for new eps like some sort of broadcast commoner.

  60. 60
    Debbie(aussie) says:

    @efgoldman:
    Welcome back. Sorry this is a bit late, but I have difficulty, time difference etc, in catching you. Am so glad you are back and from the sound of your comments, improving everyday. Take care of yourself! Nobody says ‘fuck’em’ with quite the flair that you do. 😀

  61. 61
  62. 62
    Aleta says:

    Preet Bharara‏
    @PreetBharara
    Good luck with that. Maybe these Trump transition lawyers are the ones who prepared judicial nominee Matthew “what is a courtroom?” Petersen for his confirmation hearing.
    Politico @politico
    Trump transition lawyer accuses Mueller of unlawfully obtaining emails http://politi.co/2AFlCJ9

  63. 63
    Aleta says:

    Natasha Bertrand
    @NatashaBertrand

    @chrisgeidner spoke to a senior GSA lawyer, who said of the Trump transition team: “In using our devices,” transition team members were informed that materials “would not be held back in any law enforcement” actions.
    “Therefore, no expectation of privacy can be assumed.”

  64. 64
    mike in dc says:

    @Aleta: Mueller is two steps ahead all the way. Though maybe not so impressive considering the level of the opponents.

  65. 65
    2liberal says:

    new category: worst sports announcers. A special place in hell is being held for Tommy Heinsohn, who began annoying me about 30 years ago as the color commentator for Celtics broadcasts. His endless bitching about the referees drives me nuts. EIGHTY THREE FUCKING YEARS OLD (Heinsohn, not me) and i was hoping he had retired by now when i signed up for NBA league pass.

  66. 66
    jk says:

    WP swallows the Fox line.

    Better reporting in The Guardian.

    “‘Private documents’ on a US government, public email system? What are they afraid was found? Baloney.”

  67. 67
    Cermet says:

    So, using email that have the ending “.gov” and are, in fact, controlled by a government agency (GSA) did not clue them in that these emails were both controlled by the government and accessible by legal authorities? These people are that stupid?

  68. 68
    NotMax says:

    @Major Major Major Major

    Yes, among others who subsequently seconded.

  69. 69
    bystander says:

    For the record Kevin Cirilli of Bloomberg is (a) inspired by a Muppet and (b) objectively awful. I can’t even paraphrase his ridiculousness.

  70. 70
    bystander says:

    I take comfort in knowing that if twitler pardons anyone, Eric Schneiderman, NY AG, is a capable fellow. I also guess that the accommodations he’ll have to offer them are about three degrees worse than what they’d get on a fed level.

  71. 71
    mike in dc says:

    @bystander: Schneiderman would have to file a direct indictment since a report to Congress would be outside his purview. Which would be fascinating. Trump’s lawyers would appeal, but really, the optics of a felony indictment against a sitting president are not only fatal to Trump’s prospects of re-election, they’re fatal to the re-election prospects of any politicians who back him up. Also, the humor in Trump avoiding travel back to Trump Tower would be delicious.

  72. 72
    ericblair says:

    @Cermet:

    So, using email that have the ending “.gov” and are, in fact, controlled by a government agency (GSA) did not clue them in that these emails were both controlled by the government and accessible by legal authorities? These people are that stupid?

    I think they are that stupid. I think we will find they did a lot of very stupid and sloppy things.

    More than that, they have confused other people’s brains and ability with their willingness to cheat and lie, and have decided that since they have won by cheating and lying they are smarter and better than others. This works, until it does not.

  73. 73
    randy khan says:

    @mike in dc:

    Schneiderman certainly could send a report to Congress if he so desired. I’m pretty sure he knows a couple of Senators who would be happy to facilitate the transmission of the report. Whether a Republican-controlled Congress would pay attention is a different matter.

  74. 74
    mike in dc says:

    @ericblair:
    They’ve been phenomenally stupid. If, in fact, their meeting with Veselnitskaya was innocent, why not call the FBI 5 minutes after the DNC hacks were attributed to Russia? Why keep meeting with Russians when they had to know the FBI and intelligence community was investigating Russian interference? It’s like crossing lanes into oncoming traffic.

  75. 75
    vtr says:

    Rusher – if you’re listening…

  76. 76
    Jack the Second says:

    The old saying about Presidential misdeeds was, “it’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up”. Trump has managed to outdo his predecessors in one way, in that for him it is most certainly both.

  77. 77
    bystander says:

    @mike in dc:

    Why keep meeting with Russians when they had to know the FBI and intelligence community was investigating Russian interference? It’s like crossing lanes into oncoming traffic.

    One of the things about being really stupid is thinking you’re really smart. I especially look at Flynn, whose entire adult life has been one of admiration and adulation, to be susceptible to enjoying his image in the mirror more than he should. He couldn’t see the weasely power mad traitor staring back.

  78. 78
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    Ok, so it’s wrong to for people to look at their e-mails after they spent years poring threw Hillary’s stolen e-mails. I see Mr Trump, it’s always special pleading with you.

  79. 79
    trnc says:

    @Steeplejack:

    Mariotti:

    Mueller was concerned that he wouldn’t receive all of the emails if he obtained them from the Trump team. That’s surprising and suggests that he has reason to distrust Trump’s team.

    That’s surprising?! Christ, Jared Kushner, just for one example, didn’t disclose everything in multiple runs at his security-clearance application.

    It’s not surprising that all sorts of dirt is being uncovered from Team Trump, but it is surprising that their attorneys may be failing to comply with subpoenas. As with any case, regardless of what happens with this particular one, the attorneys still have to avoid disbarment if they want to continue to work.

  80. 80
    Shalimar says:

    It sounds like the real panic started and the groundwork began for firing Mueller as soon as the lawyers found out Mueller had all these emails. They may have gotten confirmation Wednesday, but they were already hearing word back from interviewees who knew they had committed perjury because prosecutors asked very pointed follow-up questions they didn’t expect. A long list of important people have had interviews in the last few weeks, people whose lies would have been contradicted by those emails Trump lawyers didn’t know the special counsel had. They seem more panicked about that than Flynn.

  81. 81
  82. 82
    Shalimar says:

    @trnc: That is an excellent point, and may explain why the lawyers seem to be panicking too. This isn’t just another paycheck if they face personal consequences for their actions.

  83. 83
    SFAW says:

    @clay:

    Why, I believe it was the squinty-eyed Ken doll himself, one Michael J. Pence.

    1) It’s “steely-eyed,” not “squinty-eyed.” [Squinty eyes don’t throw the fear-of-god into Kim Jong Un, which is obviously what happened when Dense was gazing across the DMZ. Assuming he was actually at the DMZ, of course.]
    2) First of all, WTF did a Ken doll ever do to you, to invite such a comparison. Second: whose IQ is higher?

  84. 84
    Jeffro says:

    @Jack the Second:

    The old saying about Presidential misdeeds was, “it’s not the crime, it’s the cover-up”. Trump has managed to outdo his predecessors in one way, in that for him it is most certainly both.

    That’s a great way to put it!

    This is making my morning, that’s for sure.

    @The Dangerman: and thanks for this part – did not know that!

    Today’s Dec 17th, right? Would not surprise me to see major indictments coming in just the next few days.

  85. 85
    debbie says:

    @ericblair:

    I think they are that stupid.

    There are two different kinds of stupid. Either they had no idea that collusion was illegal, or they were so arrogant that they believed they were above the law.

  86. 86
    Kathleen says:

    @rachel: I think it is. I also noted that she is a business professor so she has a grasp of finance and related laws.

  87. 87
    Kathleen says:

    @The Dangerman: For some strange reason as I was reading that thread (I follow Dark Hoarse but hadn’t seen it) a thought flashed through my mind that there may be moles in Trump’s organization contributing to their incompetence.

  88. 88
    Shalimar says:

    @ericblair: No kidding. I wonder how many people like Devin Nunes and John Cornyn are panicking because they know they’re implicated in the transition emails.

  89. 89
    Shalimar says:

    @bystander: I think that is more arrogance than lack of intelligence. Flynn is clearly smart, but also hot-headed and impulsive. He spend his career making plans and carrying them out, but in the end he didn’t bother to think through the potential consequences of his actions because he assumed he was so brilliant that he could react to anything that went wrong.

  90. 90
    Yarrow says:

    Feels like this thread would not be complete without a tick tock, motherfuckers.

    RE: Giuliani, rumor is he has been begging Mueller for a deal but he has nothing worthwhile to offer. So on advice of counsel he’s being very, very quiet, possibly to have his ‘good behavior’ taken into account at sentencing. I have no idea if that’s true, but if it is…LOLOLOLOLOL. Mr. Noun, Verb and Prison Jumpsuit.

    @Shalimar:

    I wonder how many people like Devin Nunes and John Cornyn are panicking because they know they’re implicated in the transition emails.

    All of them, Katie. It’s not a coincidence that rumors of Paul Ryan stepping down leaked this week. They all knew. They’re all involved. They’re all traitors. Tick tock, motherfuckers. Tick fucking tock.

  91. 91
    germy says:

    Say what you will about the administration, they certainly know how to control the narrative.


    Mueller unlawfully obtained emails, Trump transition team says

    (Washington Post headline)

    I can think of a million other more appropriate headlines, rather than their accusation. The accusation is baseless, but the average person who doesn’t have the time or concentration skills to read a 20-part twitter thread from someone named “horse whisperer” skims it and thinks “Hmm.. so, both sides?”

  92. 92
    germy says:

    from the WaPo article:

    The Trump transition alleges that the handover was done by “career staff at the General Services Administration” and suggested that those employees may have had political motives.

  93. 93
    debit says:

    @debbie:

    There are two different kinds of stupid. Either they had no idea that collusion was illegal, or they were so arrogant that they believed they were above the law.

    I’ve said before that I’m positive that Trump really did think that being president was like being a king, and once he was in he could do whatever he wanted with no consequences. He’d just make problems go away. Like Comey.

  94. 94
    El Caganer says:

    @SFAW: Actually he looks like a very uncomfortable SS officer, wishing he were in uniform.

  95. 95
    germy says:

    @debit:

    He’d just make problems go away. Like Comey.

    “When you’re president, they let you do it!”
    “Gimme a tic tac.”

  96. 96
    Bookeater (formerly JosieJ) says:

    @trnc:

    Where are people getting the impression that trump’s lawyers failed to comply with subpoenas? Am I missing something? Because I’m getting the impression that all the sturm und drang in the trump camp is because Mueller took advantage of their laziness and stupidity to get the documents straight from the GSA rather than trump’s legal team. That would have tipped his hand, as well as given trump’s team the opportunity to sanitize the cache. Instead, Mueller noted that their fixer in the GSA was dead and trump couldn’t be arsed to replace him in a timely fashion and took the opportunity to completely blindside them.

    One of my few pleasures in recent days has been watching Mueller dance rings around trump’s troop of incompetent, barely-sentient baboons.

  97. 97
    Anotherlurker says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: When I worked TV, as a tech., in the 80s, 90s and 00s, the news guys I knew always referred to Giuliani as: Rudy “Where’s my key light” Giuiliani.

  98. 98
    Yarrow says:

    @Bookeater (formerly JosieJ): My understanding is that Trump’s legal team turned over X number of emails and Mueller got a lot more emails than that when he got them from the GSA. So Trump’s team selectively turned over emails. They made it pretty easy for Mueller to figure out what they were trying to hide. “They gave us these emails, but not those emails. What’s in those emails? Also, obstruction of justice.

  99. 99
    PPCLI says:

    @Bookeater (formerly JosieJ): The suggestion is that if they had complied with the subpoenas, Mueller would have had the emails in any event. If they are howling about Mueller having all this material, it’s because they withheld some particularly incriminating ones. They are now making claims of “privilege”, but since their claims of privilege are so broad and unprincipled that no court would accept them, they are cooked.

    (Recall Don Jr. refusing to answer a question about a conversation between two non-lawyers on the grounds of privilege because a lawyer was in the room. You can get away with that if the panel asking you questions is chaired by an unprincipled political ally, but not if it goes to a real court. Even Gorsach wouldn’t bite on that.)

    This makes it easier to understand why Trump’s legal team are such bozos — such as the goofball Cobb, or the guy who argued that Scalia’s votes i preliminary conference should continue to hold as final votes on a case, even after his death. It was suggested that no major heavy hitters wanted to work with Trump because he is known not to pay attorneys what was agreed. But perhaps it was also (or primarily) because they would be asked to do things that would get them disbarred. You have to scrape pretty far down the barrel to find lawyers who are willing to cooperate in not complying with subpoenas.

  100. 100
    chopper says:

    @Jay S:

    how does the gsa not have the authority to hand these emails over in response to a subpoena? this isn’t a fucking foia request we’re talking about.

  101. 101
    Yarrow says:

    The big freak-out over Mueller having the transition emails is that it means any interviewees who lied to the FBI about matters contained therein is already caught bc the FBI has the record of what happened.— Garance Franke-Ruta (@thegarance) December 17, 2017

  102. 102
    mike in dc says:

    @PPCLI: Dowd, Cobb, Sekulow, McGahn, Kasowitz and Cohen definitely aren’t the equivalent of Earle Combs, Mark Koenig, Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Bob Meusel, and Tony Lazzeri. But Mueller’s team is.

  103. 103
    Bookeater (formerly JosieJ) says:

    @Yarrow:

    So I did miss something: Mueller actually did subpoena the emails from trump’s team first, then did an end-run around them?

    Heh. Even better.

  104. 104
    Yarrow says:

    @chopper: Key point regarding handing over the emails:

    18/ Note also that the lawyers *don’t* say that the emails are privileged. They merely claim that some of the emails are “susceptible to privilege claims.” That’s weak language that suggests they’re not confident they have a strong claim that some of the emails are privileged.— Renato Mariotti (@renato_mariotti) December 16, 2017

  105. 105
    Yarrow says:

    @Bookeater (formerly JosieJ): That is my understanding. The people being interviewed by Mueller only figured out the Mueller team had all the emails because of the questions they were asking. They thought they were safe because they “knew” only X number of emails had been sent over. Oops!

  106. 106
    Shalimar says:

    @Yarrow: I think that timeline is backwards. From what I have read, Mueller’s team got the emails from GSA (presumably with a warrant) without the Trump team’s knowledge, then subpoenaed them from the transition team to see if they turned over everything.

  107. 107
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    Here’s a list of the Trump Team that is looking at jail time:

    Vice Chairs:
    • Ben Carson
    • Chris Christie (previously head of the transition from May 2016 through election day)
    • Michael Flynn (incoming National Security Advisor)
    • Newt Gingrich
    • Rudy Giuliani
    • Jeff Sessions

    with the addition of:
    • K. T. McFarland (incoming Deputy National Security Advisor)
    • Gov. Mary Fallin
    • Sen. Tim Scott
    • Rep. Marsha Blackburn (previously on the executive committee)
    • Rep. Cathy McMorris Rodgers
    • Rep. Tom Reed
    • and outgoing Rep. Cynthia Lummis

    The transition team also had an Executive Committee which included:
    • Steve Bannon, Trump campaign CEO; named Counselor to the President on November 13
    • Rep. Lou Barletta
    • Rep. Marsha Blackburn (moved to vice-chair)
    • Florida Attorney General Pam Bondi
    • Rep. Chris Collins
    • Rep. Tom Marino
    • Rebekah Mercer – director of the Mercer Family Foundation and daughter of major Trump (and Cruz) donor Robert Mercer.
    • Steven Mnuchin — former partner at Goldman Sachs,[77] incoming Secretary of the Treasury
    • Rep. Devin Nunes
    • Reince Priebus — Republican National Committee chairman; named incoming White House Chief of Staff on November 13
    • Anthony Scaramucci — Hedge-fund manager and founder of investment firm SkyBridge Capital, formerly at Goldman Sachs
    • Peter Thiel – Co-founder of PayPal, now a venture capitalist involved in several groups including Clarium Capital and Founders Fund.[78]
    • Donald Trump Jr.
    • Eric Trump
    • Ivanka Trump
    • Jared Kushner, businessman; husband of Ivanka Trump

    Additional executive committee members added on November 29, 2016:
    • Rep. Sean Duffy
    • Rep. Trey Gowdy
    • Rep. Dennis Ross
    • Pastor Darrell C. Scott
    • Kiron Skinner

  108. 108
    chopper says:

    @Yarrow:

    and that’s most all of them. assuming mueller’S team waited to pull the “and one more thing” bit until everyone was interviewed a first time.

  109. 109
    debbie says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    We’ll have to build a prison just to house all of them. I can already see the giant Trump sign on the front of it, all lit up on gold.

  110. 110
    Yarrow says:

    @Shalimar: Yes, I think you may be correct. Either way it’s not good for the Trump Traitors.

  111. 111
    chopper says:

    @Bookeater (formerly JosieJ):

    whatever the timeline is, trump and his bullshit team of legal eagles are just getting posterized by mueller here, over and over again.

  112. 112
    Steeplejack says:

    @El Caganer:

    I’ve said it before: Pence is the knock-off version of Robert Shaw in From Russia with Love.

  113. 113
    Yarrow says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap: That’s a lovely list.

  114. 114
    RSA says:

    @patrick II:

    Trump didn’t bother to nominate a new head of GSA until Sept 1 of this year, so whoever turn was managing the GSA when Mueller asked for the emails and gave them over without checking with or even notifying the White House is probably one of those lifetime government workers Trump thinks so little of.

    Out of curiosity I looked up the leadership organization of the GSA. It mentions that the GSA Administrator was sworn in just last week. You can tell that it’s still in a state of chaos: 14 of the names listed are followed by “(Acting)” and the guy who took over the Office of General Counsel (for the deceased Beckler) is also the Chief of Staff for the Administrator, wearing both hats.

  115. 115
    chopper says:

    @debbie:

    oh no, these guys are going under the jail. get the backhoe warmed up!

  116. 116
    geg6 says:

    This is delicious. Bobby Three Sticks runs rings around these idiots. No wonder the “Burn him!” freak out.

  117. 117
    Yarrow says:

    @chopper: It is a thing of beauty to watch, isn’t it?

  118. 118
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:

    Where is “Incoming VPOTUS/Chair of Transition Team” Michael Richard Pence on that otherwise gorgeous list?

  119. 119
    JR says:

    Trump I of England and Scotland.

    May his reign be short.

  120. 120
    GregB says:

    For Mueller it was like getting a redacted memo but with all of the blacked-out parts highlighted in red.

  121. 121
    Yarrow says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Good point. He should be there as well. He’s as guilty as the rest of them. He knew.

    He’s also got his own Russian ties and connections going back to his days in Indiana. He had his own email scandal. Took forever for investigators to get his emails and his team scrubbed the hell out of them. What’s he hiding? I bet Mueller has some idea.

  122. 122
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @debbie:

    We’ll have to build a prison just to house all of them. I can already see the giant Trump sign on the front of it, all lit up on gold.

    I can almost envision a scenario in which Trump cuts a deal with a private prison firm to license his name on it; he and everyone on Tilda’s list serve long sentences; Trump makes million$.

  123. 123
    mike in dc says:

    @Tilda Swintons Bald Cap:
    Mike Pence was the official head of the transition team after Christie got demoted. I wonder what emails he was cc’d on?

  124. 124
    GregB says:

    Christie was smart enough to cover his tracks in Bridgegate, I bet he covered his tracks and complied in order do the same in this instance.

  125. 125
    germy says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: I can envision a scenario where they flee to different country. I can’t imagine some of those people on the list meekly surrendering. Some of them are so wildly wealthy they’ve never had to face consequences before (cough, rebekah) and I can’t imagine them starting now.

    If Russia won’t take them, I can see a fleet of yachts in international waters. With helicopters flying in and out with supplies of champagne and caviar.

  126. 126
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Yarrow:

    I don’t think much gets past Bobby Three Sticks. Pence is in it up to his ears.

    And speaking of ears — little pointy elfin ears — shouldn’t Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III be on the list as well?

  127. 127
    mike in dc says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: He’s listed as a vice chair, albeit without the III.

  128. 128
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @germy:

    If Russia won’t take them, I can see a fleet of yachts in international waters. With helicopters flying in and out with supplies of champagne and caviar Somali pirates.

    Improved.

  129. 129
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @mike in dc:

    So he is. Missed that. Thanks!

  130. 130
    germy says:

    @SiubhanDuinne:

    Improved.

    The pirates will give erik the prince something to guard against. Best private security money can buy.

    Or will the pirates act as security?

  131. 131
    Barbara says:

    @PPCLI: You make claims of privilege at the time the document is being withheld by explaining what documents you are claiming a privilege for and why. You don’t make it after the fact once it becomes clear that you withheld them. And if they are “inadvertently” produced, your remedies depend on what process you had in place with the person seeking the documents. All of this is supposed to be negotiated in advance of the production. Retroactive claims of privilege for otherwise responsive documents you withheld without saying they were privileged at the time is a form of obstruction that lawyers get disbarred for.

  132. 132
    Lounger says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: @germy: Yes, and sadly WaPo has been the best of the mainstream press outlets over the past year. The most discouraging aspect of the tRump era has been the press’s failure to reckon with the extent to which the Right still manipulates them and leverages conventional doctrines of “fairness.”

  133. 133
    Xenos says:

    A couple observations/questions from a lawyer who took a class in Evidence 15 years ago

    – It is called “executive privilege”, not “executive branch privilege”
    – Since Trump does not use email, who is the client in all these communications, and how do they assert privilege over these emails since they do not have possession or control of them?
    – Some of these transition officials went into interviews with the FBI thinking these emails had not been released to the FBI. Holy crap is that a perjury trap. Wait until someone gets into trouble and publicly claims they had cleared their testimony with their attorneys, thereby waiving attorney-client privilege even further.

    Police violate laws regarding the collection of evidence all the time. This means they can not use the evidence to prosecute someone, but it does not stop the investigation, or the use of the information gained to further the investigation.

    If the emails were indeed privileged, a court could block them from being used as evidence, and could use them for blocking prosecution under criminal law. That does not stop the disclosure by the special counsel in his reports, being used for impeachment, or, eg., for stripping someone’s security clearance, and so on.

  134. 134
    Shalimar says:

    @GregB: I’m not sure Christie was included in anything. He was head of the transition when they thought they were going to lose, but Pence replaced him immediately after the election. I’m guessing Kushner made sure Christie’s vice-chair title was purely ceremonial so he could cut Christie out of any contact with Trump about an administration job. I would love to be wrong.

  135. 135
    PPCLI says:

    @Steeplejack: Even better — do a Google Image search on “robert shaw battle of the bulge”. Pence as Nazi tank commander.

  136. 136
    d58826 says:

    The opening segment on AM Joy was totally depressing in how close we are to a dictatorship. To much to summarize so here is the l;ink to the segment. https://twitter.com/amjoyshow/status/942419139523678214

  137. 137
    mike in dc says:

    Special Counsel not obliged to notify deponents in advance of all the evidence they are in possession of. Also, Special Counsel can write a letter to a government agency requesting information and documents of the sort that were produced. It would have been the obligation of the agency to assert the need for a subpoena. In this case they were likely complying with a lawful request for records that were definitionally the property of the GSA/government and not the parties who used the email accounts.

  138. 138
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Someone culled that list from Wikipedia over at LGF, I just copied it.

  139. 139
    Xenos says:

    @mike in dc: My question here – why is Mueller disclosing this now? I suspect he has his own approach to brinksmanship.

    He may be escalating the pressure on an already partly-cooperating witness, or has sealed indictments already on file with the court, just testing how much pressure he can put on them before dropping the boom.

  140. 140
    Tim C. says:

    @Sanjeevs: think he might have preemptively flipped states witness at the very beginning? That would be a smarter move than I’d expect from rudy.

  141. 141
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @mike in dc:

    …the optics of a felony indictment against a sitting president…”

    All right, here we go with this again. It’s supposedly an unresolved hypothetical question (cuz it’s never been attempted in our history) whether or not a sitting president can be criminally indicted by anyone other than Congress (i.e., impeachment). But in practical terms it is resolved: no federal prosecutor would dare to bring charges of any kind against a sitting president (including this one) and even if one did try, no federal marshall would attempt to then serve an arrest warrant since the president (protected at all times by the Secret Service) would refuse to accept the authority of any such warrant.

    Federal prosecutors, marshalls, the president (or in this case, Dolt 45’s team, since he is, after all, an ignorant dolt) and the Secret Service all know this, so it wouldn’t even be attempted. A “Mexican standoff” between federal marshalls and the Secret Service? Never happen. Thus, only Congress can indict and try a sitting president on criminal charges. That’s why — short of death or (very unlikely, I think) resignation, Trump remains president till Jan 20, 2021 no matter how much “there” may be there in Mueller’s investigation.

    No court can rid us of Trump — if he lives till then, it’s up to the electorate in 2020 to do that.

  142. 142
    tobie says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: There are many reasons why a sitting President wouldn’t be indicted but I don’t think the problem is serving the warrant. My understanding is a warrant can be served to your agent, i.e., your lawyer, but I could be wrong. I am not a lawyer.

  143. 143
    mike in dc says:

    @Xenos: I don’t know. I think there’s a handful of things Mueller can do to make Trump think twice about firing him now. One is to request an interview with Trump. Can’t fire him before he interviews you–too obvious, even to some of your base. Another is to produce a high profile indictment of someone close to Trump. That makes the optics worse. The third is to charge someone explicitly for conspiring with Russia. All of these basically worsen the optics just as the president is preparing to fire the Special Counsel. The point is to make it obvious that the firing has nothing to do with bias and everything to do with naked self-preservation.

  144. 144
    Shalimar says:

    I think the optics of Congress not impeaching Trump after every single one of his aides past and present has been indicted and/or convicted is going to be a bigger story.

  145. 145
    mike in dc says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: I was referring to an indictment brought by a state prosecutor, not a federal one. Also unresolved legally. If a president commited murder by pushing someone out a window at Trump Tower, can an indictment for the state charge of murder be brought against him? Pretty sure the answer is yes. So too for other serious state felony charges. Let the lawyers fight it out, but the state prosecutor is not obliged to apply federal protocols to state cases unless appropriate.

  146. 146
    PPCLI says:

    @Xenos: I don’t think Mueller is the one doing the disclosing. It seems rather that he and his investigators Are keeping their usual disciplined silence. The only comment has been the terse one from Mueller’s spokesman saying that there was nothing out of order in obtaining the emails that way.

    It would appear that as the interviews developed, The questions that the Trump people were being asked began to trigger danger signs for them, and they realized that Mueller knew about emails they thought they had buried. And, presumably, that many of the Trump team had lied to investigators because they thought they could get away with it. And perhaps also that the lawyers have some exposure here for not complying with subpoenas.

    Now they’re going loudly public, desperately trying to throw up fog and attack the investigation, because that’s all they got.

    IANAL

  147. 147
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Marble-headed stupe accuses fellow Republican Senator of accepting a massive bribe in exchange for vote

    David Sirota‏Verified account
    BREAKING: Sen.JohnCornyn tells ThisWeekABC that last-minute provision enriching SenBobCorker & other GOP lawmakers was added to the tax bill as part of an effort to “cobble together the votes we needed to get this bill passed”

  148. 148
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @PPCLI: The only comment has been the terse one from Mueller’s spokesman saying that there was nothing out of order in obtaining the emails that way.

    terse, but loaded

    Evan Pérez‏Verified account @ cevanperez
    Peter Carr, Special Counsel spokesman:
    “When we have obtained emails in the course of our ongoing criminal investigation, we have secured either the account owner’s consent or appropriate criminal process.”

    criminal, twice

  149. 149
    Cermet says:

    The president – as in the orange fart cloud – can be an un-indicted co-conspirator. That Mueller can certainly do.

  150. 150
    d58826 says:

    holy fsm – WAPO is reporting that the kremlin just announced that Putin called Der Fuhrer to thank him for the CIA intell that stopped a terror attack in Russia.

    This is wrong on so many levels. Now maybe the US and Russia co-operate to stop terror attacks on each others country but they don’t make a public announcement about it. I think this is Putin telling the old pussy grabber that he has Trump by the balls and will squeeze when ever it is convenient. Maybe Der Fuhrer should just move to Mar-LAgo permanently and let Putin move into the WH. Would save the expense of long distance phone calls.

  151. 151
    d58826 says:

    help in moderation

  152. 152
    d58826 says:

    maybe this will work better

    holy fsm – WAPO is reporting that the kremlin just announced that Putin called Der Fuhrer to thank him for the CIA intell that stopped a terror attack in Russia.

    This is wrong on so many levels. Now maybe the US and Russia co-operate to stop terror attacks on each others country but they don’t make a public announcement about it. I think this is Putin telling the old p* grabber that he has Trump by the b*** and will squeeze when ever it is convenient. Maybe Der Fuhrer should just move to Mar-LAgo permanently and let Putin move into the WH. Would save the expense of long distance phone calls.

  153. 153
    feebog says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    All right, here we go with this again. It’s supposedly an unresolved hypothetical question (cuz it’s never been attempted in our history) whether or not a sitting president can be criminally indicted by anyone other than Congress (i.e., impeachment). But in practical terms it is resolved:

    I agree with most of this except the word supposedly. The question has never been tried in a court of law. It is an opinion produced by lawyers, nothing more. There are plenty of constitutional scholars out there who disagree and have made solid arguments to the contrary. Realistically, given the current make up of the Supreme Court, I don’t see them overturning the opinion.

  154. 154
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    Federal prosecutors, marshalls, the president (or in this case, Dolt 45’s team, since he is, after all, an ignorant dolt) and the Secret Service all know this, so it wouldn’t even be attempted. A “Mexican standoff” between federal marshalls and the Secret Service? Never happen.

    I could see federal marshalls and the Secret Service agreeing to some kind of house arrest at either Trump Tower or Mar-A-Loco. It would allow the Secret Service to continue protecting their charge in a secure place while justice moves forward.

  155. 155
    Captain C says:

    @germy: At least until enough of their assets get found and frozen such that they can’t maintain that lifestyle anymore.

  156. 156
    Ruckus says:

    @mike in dc:
    Is it also possible that as a rather unique case in our history, new ways of doing things may be discovered? The secret service is tasked with physically protecting the president from harm, not from the law or his own actions.

  157. 157
    Mike in DC says:

    As i said upthread, i was referring to NY AG Schneiderman bringing a state felony case, not a federal one. Since it would pertain to the non-official acts of the president, and presidential immunity doesn’t transcend state jurisdiction, seems like filing an indictment would be kosher. Still would be appealed all the way uo, but more likely to go forward than a federal case.

  158. 158
    Boatboy_srq says:

    @mai naem mobile: PATRIOT was never intended to target white-collar treason. Also never intended to target white people.

  159. 159
    Chet Murthy says:

    @SiubhanDuinne: Live by the lawlessness, die by the lawlessness. One presumes they’ll all head for Russia. y’know a place w’out an extradition treaty.

  160. 160
    Chet Murthy says:

    @germy:

    Trump transition team charges Mueller obtained emails improperly, but legal experts challenge those claims

    They seem to have improved it. But still:

  161. 161
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @tobie: Yes, but if it ever got that far (I think it never would) then some federal officer of the law would still eventually have to try to bring a sitting president before a federal court, or that president would have to voluntarily do so. Never happen.

  162. 162
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @Mnemosyne: No way in hell this ever happens.

  163. 163
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @Mike in DC: This neither. Death, resignation, Congressional impeachment, the 2020 electorate. The ONLY ways that Trump can be removed from the presidency. State prosecutorial jurisdiction over a sitting president? This seems to be a dead thread now (with me just muttering to myself, apparently) but that’s dead wrong.

  164. 164
    Mike in DC says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: Again, are you asserting that if the president threw someone out the window of Trump tower, that a state prosecutor is dependent upon the discretion of Congress to enforce the law of the state of new york? I’m a lawyer, and i call bullshit.

  165. 165
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @Mike in DC: Yes, even in the absurd hypothetical you postulate, if the sitting president who did such a thing refused to recognize the authority of the state to prosecute him (I’ll equally absurdly postulate he would so refuse) then who could actually compel him? No one.

    Of course it would be a Constitutional crisis of the highest order, but the resolution of that crisis would still be through the Congress, via impeachment. No state court would have power over a sitting president for anything unless that president voluntarily submitted to it (and I seriously doubt any president would).

    Backing off from absurdities, in the real case we have today of a sitting president quite likely to have committed various crimes involving Russia and his election, it is not something any court outside Congress under the articles of impeachment could or would handle. And this Congress will not do it.

    His underlings? Very different matter, of course. A couple (Flynn and Manafort) have already been indicted, and I hope to hell many more (Jared, please let it be Jared!) will yet be.

Comments are closed.