“I think that the vast majority of whites/Hutu/People’s Temple
are people who are in pain, who are struggling economically… and they turned to the Klan/InterahamweJim Jones because the Klan/Interahamwe/Jim Jones said things that made sense.” https://t.co/4mGyceUAI2— Dana Houle (@DanaHoule) December 6, 2017
.@BernieSanders: "I think that the vast majority of Trump supporters are people who are in pain, who are struggling economically… and they turned to Trump because Trump said things that made sense.” https://t.co/eoevCTIuf6
— VICE (@VICE) December 6, 2017
Well, he never was a Democrat. And now that he’s been rejected by Democratic voters — but not before picking up an addiction to the perks of Presidential candidacy — it looks like Bernie Sanders is lunging for the “disaffected GOP populist” vote. Because Trump’s unlikely to be a candidate next time round, since the odds are he’ll be in jail or dead of a fatal infarction!
But I don’t think he’ll win *that* primary, either. I stumbled over this clip from last month’s televised “tax debate”, and what I see is a flustered old man getting pantsed by Ted Cruz and Tim Scott, hardly the deadliest assailants. Good fun for GOP sadists during the early primaries, but Repubs aren’t pity-voters.
Murphy the Trickster God, do I get tired of these crappy never-ending premature reboots!
"Actually Trump supporters voted for him, because they really wanted me." pic.twitter.com/jPTRmRo6Uk
— Centrism Fan Acct ?? (@Wilson__Valdez) December 6, 2017
If the shit Trump said about immigrants and minorities made sense to you I have questions https://t.co/e6tOEYfz4Z
— Arthur Chu (@arthur_affect) December 6, 2017
Bernt Up Sanders. It took him an entire year to finally admit there were racist Trump supporters, but naturally he continues to pretend there are "good" Trump supporters who were actually concerned about ethics in gaming journalism or something. https://t.co/K0gMnhjyVx
— Ragnarok Lobster (@eclecticbrotha) December 6, 2017
Yep. I'm much more interested in getting rid of voter suppression laws than wooing white nationalists.
— Don't Be Complicit (@profc71) December 6, 2017
I live in OK. My social circle is overwhelmingly conservative. Let me tell you, none of them voted for Trump because of economic anxiety. It was the Wall. It was gay wedding cakes. It was Ferguson. It was planned Parenthood. It was the ban. It was bigotry.
— Happy Holidays Torres (@eaudie) December 6, 2017
Major Major Major Major
Sanders is no fan of immigration or trade either, that kind of got lost in all the shuffle.
BlueDWarrior
So many people on the nominal left are so deeply uncomfortable with racialized politics they will refuse to acknowledge it exists.
There are a lot of voters who’d embrace social democracy so long as it was a social herrenvolk democracy.
Dog Dawg Damn
I’m triggered by the word “deals” and wish people would find a way to avoid saying it altogether if possible. I don’t remember so many people calling every negotiation “making deals” before this year, so I’m hoping it will be retired with Trump’s “Presidency”, preferably soon.
Major Major Major Major
@BlueDWarrior:
We call them ‘Republicans’.
Mary G
All I want for Christmas is for Wilmer to go the fuck away.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@BlueDWarrior:
I’ve always questioned if European nations had the history we’ve had and had large numbers of minorities that they would have social democracy either.
Dog Dawg Damn
@Major Major Major Major: the Republican base.
Anne Laurie
@Mary G:
Think of him as the unfunny Pat Paulsen. Or one of those one-hit 70s bands that still make a living touring state fairs and coffeehouses within driving distance of their home base.
Whenever I see his face these days, I flash back to an old greeting card: [on the front]You’re right, I don’t deserve you. [inside] I don’t deserve my hemorrhoids either, but that’s life.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
I refuse to call them that. They don’t really believe in republicanism. I use GOP, Gropy Oligarch Party.
Cacti
Thing Wilmer actually said in the past 5 weeks:
Bernie believes racism is bad, mmmkay?
But we can’t forget the “ordinary Americans”.
Elizabelle
What did Trump say that made sense? I could care less about the junior senator from Vermont. Who is NOT a Democrat.
I fervently hope Al Franken does NOT resign today. Let the ethics investigation play out; why take down a hard-working senator in what is becoming a witch hunt? I would not be saying the same thing if Franken’s (alleged) transgressions were like Anthony Wiener’s dick shots — Wiener had to go, and took too long doing it.
But this one feels more like ratfucking and a rush to judgement. I say that as pretty much a low information voter on the topic.
I am in Germany. Have not seen an American TV broadcast in weeks now. No cable news. It’s wonderful. Pretty much catch my news from BJ and some limited reading of WaPost, LATimes (the fires!), and FTF NYTimes (which gave prime real estate to Kirsten Gillibrand and other “Democratic women” demanding Franken’s resignation).
I was roaming around NYC the day the first allegation surfaced. I could not believe the mob mentality here, and tried to comment but kept losing the wifi connection. My comment would have been along lines of “cool your jets, people.”
Here’s a link to readers’ comments at NYTimes story. If you sort them by “readers picks”, you will see there is no rush to insist Franken resign. The numbers kind of pleased and surprised me, given what the shrillness in blogland.
There is a huge difference between Roy Moore and Al Franken, or John Conyers and Al Franken, or any of the media, entertainment, and infotainment big shots taken down by numerous credible and verified sexual harrassment and assault charges.
That is not Franken’s situation, as far as I can see.
I don’t see why we cannot support our Democratic politicians who deserve a second chance, and Franken certainly does. I cannot stand the internet rush to judgment. It makes me sad Franken may pay the price, while the fucking Republicans will brazen it out, with far more craven behavior. Again.
This whole episode has made me ashamed to be a Democrat. And fuck Gillibrand. She is dead to me. Wasn’t she dumping on Bill Clinton recently? I hope her ambitions remain limited to NY State.
Wmd
What do you call a party that goes out of it’s way to alienate 46% of those who voted in the most recent presidential primary? Seems kind of moronic to me, especially when they affirmatively support candidates opposed to a woman’s right to choose.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Cacti: Golly, I wonder what the phrase “ordinary Americans” is a dogwhistle for?
Matt
We keep voting on Trump voters, instead of the 5% of voters who went 3rd party, higher %s in some specific states, what are we doing to get those voters?
danielx
@Anne Laurie:
Reminds me of the one with the inside greeting that said “most people I know have hemorrhoids, but you are a perfect asshole”.
Major Major Major Major
@Matt: Are you joking?
Elizabelle
Putting up the top rated NY Times readers comments on the Franken story (A Democratic Chorus Rises in the Senate: “Franken should resign”):
justawriter
TLDR: Because of structural bullshit 52% of the popular vote is no longer enough to get an electoral college victory. Therefore we should ignore efforts that could get us more votes because we already won the popular vote.
Major Major Major Major
@Anne Laurie: Sometimes I think of the classic Lebowski line, you’re not wrong, [wilmer], you’re just an asshole, man!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Matt:
What about people disenfranchised? I think I care more about getting those votes than those of purity dead enders.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@justawriter:
What’s your point?
B.B.A.
I call on Bernie to resign from the Senate.
…do I need a reason?
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: This thread is pretty confusing!
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@B.B.A.:
The papers he wrote in college about rape might be.
Anne Laurie
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Yeah, he also consistently refers to “average voters” as separate from “women”, who are just another “special interest group”.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Oh my god those are super sketchy.
TenguPhule
@Mary G: I gotta put up with Manchin for his vote, you got to put up with Sanders.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle: So like Balloonjuice but with more common sense.
Elizabelle
Continuing, and I am not selecting or editing any out. These are the top NY Times reader’s comments, in order. I think Gillibrand shat her own bed, personally.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Tell me about it. Is justawriter talking about the post? Why would pursuing Trump voters get us to the required amount to win and beat the EC? And where is that 52% coming from?
Yarrow
@Elizabelle:
That’s just stupid. Voting is pretty much the only tool we have to get the people we want in positions where they can enact policies we like. Not voting is not going to get Sandy CA policies she likes. If she’s unhappy with her elected official then let them know on a regular basis and work to elect someone else. When we disengage from the process our democracy dies.
Ithink
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Its certain what made me regret (somewhat) voting for him in the most recent primaries. Can’t believe he wrote that nonsense! He was trying g to be Woody Allen without the wit & Larry Sanders without the surrealist irony.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Elizabelle:
Witch hunt is the phrase madame used to describe the the Franken stuff.
Anne Laurie
@Major Major Major Major:
Not for “radical” men back in the early 1970s, alas. But that was a generation or more before the RoseBros were even born, and they think of 2012 as irrelevant ancient history.
Elizabelle
@TenguPhule: Yeah. I am disgusted with the libtard intertubes. Disgusted.
Major Major Major Major
@Ithink: I agree that it was a failed attempt at… something, but oh my god what the fuck
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I don’t think I care right now.
Arclite
I think that Franken should step down just as soon as Trump and Clarence Thomas do.
Matt
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: That’s fair too, I still think we spend too much time talking about Trump voters. They voted on illegal immigration most of them.
Major Major Major Major
@Anne Laurie: Yep, I’ve read similar things by men of a similar vintage written at a similar time. That does not make them less super sketchy.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Yarrow:
I’m sure Sandy CA would rather watch football or Dancing with the Stars like a good American than worry her little head about “democracy” or “ethics”.
Elizabelle
@?BillinGlendaleCA: Yes. It’s become a hysteria.
When I saw Time had chosen #metoo — with the recognizable and highly paid white wimmens leading the charge — I just felt sick for Senator Franken, who might pay the price for those with far more serious — and proven — transgressions.
I think Democrats are cowardly when they pull this kind of shit. Think, people. Just about everything in life is on a continuum of some sort.
Don’t let cable TV drive you into hysteria, and that seems to be what is happening.
Major Major Major Major
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: @Matt: Remember when that neoliberal Clinton lackey whore McAuliffe restored voting rights to 150,000 felons in Virginia?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Matt: The media talks too much about Trump voters. Probably because they still can’t fathom 62 million people choosing to pull the lever for a fascist bigoted fop like Trump. I could care less about them. If some want to say “mea culpa” and come over to our side more power to them. But all of Trump’s bullshit is ultimately on Trump’s voters because they empowered racism and authoritarianism by electing him.
Elizabelle
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Stop dumping on “Sandy.” You two conveniently leave out the second part of his/her comment. And it appears this commenter DID vote. For Gillibrand or some other female Democratic Senator.
Why don’t you address that part of the comment, or the others put up?
Ithink
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
More than likely not but you never know for sure; many developed European nations are now struggling to keep their generous welfare states up because they have such a vastly parallel history regarding labor & other human rights in comparison to the U.S. If slavery & genocide of the First Nation peoples hadn’t happened, we ourselves may have universal health care, basic income, free college and other incredible social democrats amenities by now for a while but who knows? The oligarchic forces and aristocratic armies of each society manage to transform and obfuscate throughout the ages. They could very well have an even tighter grip here than they have presently in even an alternative universe scenario.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
You are asking for too much from our party.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Yeah that was awful. Why doesn’t Terry care about ordinary Americans?
/I would seriously like to know the impact that had on Virginia’s elections a few weeks ago.
chopper
jesus, this buffoon still thinks he can woo trump voters with socialism?
what in all fuck.
TenguPhule
@Arclite: I think Franken should skull fuck Susan Collins on the Senate floor. Then give Gillibrand a nice big middle finger salute.
Anyone who says women are better at this whole power thing just needs to look at those two to see how wrong they are.
Brachiator
@Yarrow:
All the more reason for not negating votes by playing premature resignation games.
lahke
So why am I seeing scantily-clad hot Russian singles ads on BJ? More cunning work by Putin to distract us from these excellent discussions? Part of the Twitler’s hotel history?
Oh, and why on earth is a Saudi prince buying Salvator Mundi? Graven images are a Muslim no-no, no?
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Elizabelle:
I admit I didn’t read the original.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Hmm By pleading guilty to a felony charge, Flynn became a felon. And lives in Virginia (for now – guessing he’s gonna take a bath on the sale).
;)
T S
@Elizabelle: If they don’t vote again because of Franken’s resignation, they are as dumb as any fucking Trump supporter. Maybe we are obligated to woo them, but holy fuck, if they don’t vote and get fucked by plutocracy, fuck em. Don’t want to hear the next version of “butter emails” for another four years. But his resignation!!!!
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Jesus Christ, how long is every thread going to turn into a Franken nankin’
can’t we get back to fighting about Sanders?
Brachiator
@lahke:
When have Saudi Princes ever lived by the rules?
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: We could talk about vampires.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator: More importantly, that painting is terrible, why would anybody spend that kind of money on it?
Elizabelle
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Franken could get forced out THIS week. It’s timely. And it would be wrong, and set a terrible precedent.
I am bored, bored, bored, bored, bored with Wilmer. Bored, I tell you. I have heard his one note.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle: I was the one who quoted the first bit and not the second bit. I did that on purpose because I felt the rest of the comment didn’t add a lot to the first. But I’ll address it. First Sandy CA says she won’t vote again. Then “What’s the use?” As I said previously, the “use” is that’s how democracy works. We vote. We don’t always get what we want with our votes, but that’s our system. Suggesting that voting is useless with “what’s the use” comments is doing Republicans’ jobs for them. One less D vote might as well be an R vote.
If she did vote for Gillibrand and she’s suggesting that Gillibrand might as well be a Republican, then I think she is wrong. Gillibrand has been a good D vote. Calling for Franken to resign is wrong, imho, but it doesn’t make Gillibrand a Republican.
I think Sandy CA is wrong to suggest voting is useless just because Sen. Gillibrand does something that Sandy doesn’t like. As I said above, if you don’t like what your elected official does, let them know and work to get someone else elected.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Major Major Major Major:
Just not the Twilight kind please.
Did anybody read “Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter”?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Major Major Major Major: actually, I think you mean strigoi
Mary G
@Elizabelle: Preach it, Sister. I think a public ethics committee hearing would go a long way for women to explain their boundaries in terms of appropriate and inappropriate touching.
Major Major Major Major
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: @? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I’m mostly curious how we feel about half-vampires.
Elizabelle
@Yarrow: I thought the meat of Sandy’s comment was the part you left out. I took Sandy’s comment as frustration and futility. It was less about not voting than having a person she voted for turn around and do the GOP’s work.
Gillibrand may not be a Republican, but she is sure doing them a huge favor.
Why?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: I don’t want to talk about Eric Prince.
Gretchen
@Elizabelle: We all need to remember that Leeann Tweeden led the charge against Shirley Sherrod, saying she had to résign because she was racist about whites. We know for a fact that she’s willing to lie to take a Democrat down, yet people believed that she just happened to feel she needed to do this the week after Franken showed himself a powerful voice agains Sessions’ lies. He wanted a chance to defend himself, called for the ethics investigation himself, yet we couldn’t grant him that. He put his hand on a woman’s waist during a photo-op, an was lied about by a lying liar, so he had to go down today. This is a hit, plain and simple.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Overdone in fiction.
Kill em all.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Mary G: Yup, it would be a good teaching moment.
Brachiator
@Major Major Major Major:
Because they could. I look at this as a preview of what will come if tax cut madness is passed.
ETA. Never read Abe Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. But the movie was surprisingly fun.
NotMax
@Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe)
Aware it exists. Have not read the book nor seen the film.
Anne Laurie
@lahke:
I think the rationalization is that he didn’t buy it for personal use, he bought it for the Abu Dhabi “branch” of the Louvre.
In actual fact, of course, he bought it because high-dollar, institutionally certified Art is an investment — some ridiculous percentage of the prestige auction sale items go straight from one tax-avoiding richie’s climate-controlled storage vault to another climate-controlled storage vault. (For less than tv-worthy items, I’m told sometimes the piece doesn’t even get taken out of its bin; the auctioneer uses a reproduction, and once the sale is processed, the new owner’s title gets slapped on the door.)
From what little I’ve seen from art critics, Salvatore Mundi may be as much as 15% Leonardo’s work, at best. So the Saudi prince would’ve been cheated if he actually thought he was getting a daVinci original… but as a measure of prestige/unit of investment value, what’s the difference?
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: …as opposed to vampires, somehow?
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Depends what the other half is.
Elizabelle
@Gretchen: Yes. It was huge to me that the first accuser was not entirely believable and had an agenda. And right after Roger Stone opened his yap.
I am ashamed of the Democrats who would rather eat one of their own than wait out the process.
I was not sorry to see Conyers step down. Entirely different situation, with a financial settlement, and not sorry to see newer blood take office there. And it need not be Conyers’ own blood. (Jeebus, isn’t his own son in the running?)
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: let’s try human! Kind of the default assumption when it’s unspecified, I think.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle: I saw Sandy CA’s comment as a comment meant to discourage people from participating in our democratic system. “It’s all useless! Why bother voting!” That’s childish and not how the system works.
I understand the frustration with Sen Gillibrand, but saying “I’m done. I’m not voting again.” is not the way to deal with that frustration. The fact that so many people recommended the comment is discouraging to me.
Gretchen
@Elizabelle: Was that how Roger Stone was involved? He predicted that Franken would go down before it happened?
Elizabelle
@Gretchen: I think he did.
Mind you, I was just beginning my travel at the time. But I think Stone did exactly that. I’m not sure he named Franken. But it was “watch this.” And then up pops Leeanne.
@Yarrow: We’ve exhausted “Sandy’s” comment.
How about taking up some of the others?
I have been cruising the most recent of the NYTimes reader comments on the stories too. That is often where you find the trolls and comments that don’t attract recommendations.
They are solid on Franken not resigning as well.
different-church-lady
So basically Sanders repeats the “deplorables” comment.
It will be informative to see if he gets pilloried for it in the same way Clinton did.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
As would have to develop in utero, perhaps a succubus as the mother might make for a more amenable gestation.
(Of course if one subscribes to the vampires not aging part of the mythology, then the newborn could well be destined to remain at that age.)
Yarrow
@Gretchen: The night before the Tweeden accusation dropped, Roger Stone tweeted out that it was going to be Al Franken’s time in the barrel. It has to be some kind of hit job. Roger Stone is disgusting.
Steve in the ATL
@?BillinGlendaleCA: where’s Mnems tonight? Ate at Granville Cafe tonight per her suggestion. Was excellent.
Anne Laurie
@Gretchen:
In my fantasy, during his press conference later this morning, Franken produces a printout of the correspondence between Tweeden and the RNC/Trump office/Mercer minion who set up the plot. Because, like you, I’m sure the paperwork is out there!
Steve in the ATL
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Bernie would have made Franken resign
Ladyraxterinok
I think Ferguson was a major factor. It solidified many whites’ conviction that all blacks are petty crooks and/or thugs with zero respect for ‘law and civilized society.’ The only reasonable response therefore is surrounding them with barbed wire walls, giving them limited, closely monitored freedom.
That’s similar to what I’ve heard here in OK.L
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: In some places, they used to suspect babies who were born nine months after the father died of being half-vampires.
Yarrow
@Elizabelle: I found the other comments offer a variety of opinions as to why Franken shouldn’t resign. Most of the takes repeat what I’ve seen elsewhere. I don’t have a particular opinion on those comments. I just thought the one saying voting was useless was dumb.
NotMax
@Major Major Major Major
Altered for self-evident reason.
Major Major Major Major
@NotMax: Absolutely no reason the spouse couldn’t have been the father.
ETA but yes i see what you did there
Viva BrisVegas
@Elizabelle:
Surely you recall the way that Congressional Democrats nearly trampled each other in the rush to stick the shiv into the back of ACORN on the basis of a patently fake neo-nazi agitprop video?
Or how Democrats were so eager to believe Andrew Breitbart over Shirley Sherrod.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Steve in the ATL: Not sure, I was a block away from you @ Target getting drugs.
GregB
I see the Franken matter in the same vein asthe ebola virus story during Obama admin. or yes, ACORN.
A media driven frenzy.
Elizabelle
@Viva BrisVegas: Yes. Long history of cowardice like that, to tarnish Democrats’ genuine courage: voting rights, human rights, healthcare rights, environmental protection.
And the cowardice gets noticed, while voters and other observers take the courageous stands for granted, because “both sides.” Although both sides do not show integrity and actual courage. (Recklessness, yes, on the GOP side. Democrats’ caution gets derided. Daddy vs. Mommy politics. It’s quite sad.)
I don’t want to see another own goal by the Democrats. Wake up.
Aleta
Is it possible the Dem politicians calling for his resignation are not doing it to show moral superiority; and not because they think his actions deserve it? But only because of sad political calculation–that the stakes are incredibly high and they would be taking the bait set out by Rs if they defend Franken on principle now. The risk being that an accusation dropping every week, whether legitimate or not, would take the focus off Moore, off defeating the tax bill, off the damage to Trump and Kushner as news of Mueller’s work breaks.
So Sessions has won his revenge on Franken, but fighting that battle now may risk losing the bigger fights they need to win for the country. Is it possible they lose no matter what they do, and they figure Franken’s best chance of survival has become leaving now, with chance of returning later ?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Did I say I don’t want all the vampires dead too?
GregB
Prior to the Franken story dropping, Stone Tweeted it will be ‘his time in the barrel.’ The exact same thing he wrote before the weeks long campaign involving Podesta’s stolen emails and accusations that he is rapist who drinks children’s blood.
Tom Arnold Tweeted today that Tweeden had been coached by co workers and Stone prior to her story being revealed.
There is also a campaign against Sam Seder using an out if context comment by Cernovich who actually is an advocate of rape and admits he’s enjoying the character assassination hit job he’s involved in.
3 of the accusers are totally anonymous.
Mike in Pasadena
@Gretchen: I confess, I had forgotten about her previous claim to fame. Should have consulted the Wiki. Perhaps she is the creep I suspected from the first but I was brow beaten by others into believing that it was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG to question anything any accuser ever says about a male Democratic Senator.
Brachiator
From WaPo
Which is, of course, why the wealthy need a tax cut.
Elizabelle
@Aleta: I think the Democrats should treat voters as adults. Yes, it is bait set out by Republicans. And yes, there is a continuum of sexual harrassment and assault activities.
Roy Moore does not equal Al Franken. At all. What the Democrats, particularly their women senators are doing, if done for political reasons, is craven. It’s sacrificing a flawed but good man’s career for expedience, and sending the message that Democrats will not protect their own (within reason). This is a far different case than Anthony Weiner or John Conyers.
And to judge these men solely on sexual proclivities and allegations, and not on their political views and fitness for high public office: isn’t that falling for the trap that got us Clarence Thomas?
Because the best course of action there would have been to vote against Thomas for being unqualified. And he is unqualified for a Supreme Court seat. As is Neal Gorsuch. As Anthony Kennedy has become. (Too many factual errors and assumptions by Kennedy in recent years.)
SO: consider Roy Moore for having been thrown off the Supreme Court of Alabama. Twice. For running a charity that is enriching himself and his wife. He is a horrible public servant. Poor judgment, incompetent, does not understand the reason for separation of church and state.
Which is hardly the case with Al Franken. Who has taken his work seriously, and studied hard. He’s also raised a lot of money for his party. Shown loyalty, and patience.
If you must judge on sexual mores: Moore was banned from a Gadsden AL mall for preying on underage women.
Nothing Franken has been accused of rises anywhere near that history.
If you treat Americans as adults, and a lot more of them are, they will see that. Give them a chance.
We are all focusing on the Trump voters, when Hillary’s were more numerous. It’s a mistake. It’s appalling we have so many badly informed and terrible voters, but they are not the majority, nationally.
Amir Khalid
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Surprisingly good. Its characterisation of slaveholders as a species of vampire is right on the money.
Mike in Pasadena
@Aleta: No. SATSQ
MomSense
@Elizabelle:
Taylor Swift is not the woman who is afraid to speak up because she can’t afford to lose her job.
I join you in your disgust.
Elizabelle
@Amir Khalid: Well that’s interesting. Now maybe I will read it.
Amir Khalid
@Aleta:
In this context, “political calculation” is a euphemism for cowardice. Franken has a right to due process like any accused person. Defending that right is the only proper thing to do. The Democratic party should not let itself be panicked into abandoning principle — not now, not ever.
?BillinGlendaleCA
@Elizabelle: Craven was the word i was thinking.
Elizabelle
@MomSense: Corra is not down with it either.
@Amir Khalid: Agreed. 100%. It’s a stampede to cowardice.
The media follows suit. I see reports that Franken’s support is “collapsing.” Among Democratic senators, I guess. Who are — what 45+ primarily high income individuals, and not representative of the vast number of Democratic voters?
Publishing the Gillibrand story to up the pressure on Franken is another reason it’s Fuck the Fucking New York Times. And yet another case where their readers are not buying what FTF NYT is trying to sell them.
Elizabelle
@Aleta:
If they lose no matter what they do, show some damn spine, Democrats. It actually appeals to voters.
WRT Franken returning later: “Disgraced former Senator Al Franken today opened his campaign for …” Uh. No.
SWMBO
Senator Ted Kennedy had a less than stellar record regarding women as I recall. With more serious implications. Yet the voters of Massachusetts reelected him. More than once. Let Franken go through the process and see what the republican controlled committee says. Franken knew the republicans were in charge of the committee when he asked them to investigate. This has ratfuck written all over it.
Kathleen
@Major Major Major Major: I remember NPR “reporter’s” outrage because a Va Rethuglican accused him of playing politics and McAuliffe refused to say he was playing politics. “Reporter” kept hammering him to admit to it because Rethuglican said it so it must be true. One of many, many reasons why I no longer listen to NPR.
Kathleen
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: I disagree. They obsess over them because they agree with them, Trump and Rethuglicans. Evidently Chuckles Toddler said Dems were looking to take back the moral high ground. (I didn’t hear it but saw it on Twitter). As if Rethuglicans could ever claim moral high ground on any level. This is what we’re dealing with in mainslime media.
Kathleen
@Major Major Major Major: There’s a difference?
Kathleen
@Aleta: I agree with you. It’s political calculation.
J R in WV
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
Yes, I read that. Pretty much the traditional undead monster Vampires. Not the Anne Rice elegant French nobel-dead. Which I don’t enjoy much at all.
opiejeanne
@Kathleen: I read the last two words of your last sentence as manslime media.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: While it’s seldom pleasant, one useful byproduct of fiery debates like this is that everyone gets a good look at who their putative allies really are. Your comment, for example, is revealing.
Kathleen
@opiejeanne: Oops! Thanks! I meant mainslime! I blame the early hour! And Hillary.
prostratedragon
Alternative presidential march, or what you will, with evocative painting:
Someone should do a piano and high-hat version.
joel hanes
@Gretchen:
Leeann Tweeden led the charge against Shirley Sherrod, saying she had to résign because she was racist about whites.
Dems are apparently subject to purity-panic attacks in which they score or help score own-goals.
Jocelyn Elders
Shirley Sherrod
ACORN
Also : a 2006 USO show that may be of interest
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJidGI-NMd0
Bobby Thomson
The most nefarious of Sanders’ misdeeds (and they are legion) has been to give cover to the idea that bigoted whites were voting for Trump for some reason other than their prejudices. Until he shows all his taxes, and maybe not even then, you can’t convince me he’s not in the pay of Republicans or Russians or both.
Feathers
The main thing that strikes me as different about Franken is that there hasn’t been an immediate rush of stories about how everybody knew this all along, of the horrible pressures and powers that were brought to bear on the victims to keep them quiet. In fact, every attempt be those who have known and worked with Franken to defend him has been treated as an outrage. This has led to a situation where I don’t feel any sense of knowing what actually happened. Was this just part of his comedian, wiseass persona that made women laugh most of the time, but really offended enough that he should have cut it out long ago? AKA the Joe Biden story? There just doesn’t seem to be any of the predatory escalations that we’ve seen in the other cases, the deep misogyny and contempt for women.
The lack of reporting out on the Franken stories is weird. The ugly pile ons when women defend men publicly accused of abuse may be having a chilling effect.
gene108
@joel hanes:
I thought we are not supposed to hold a woman’s past conduct against her, with regards to her claims of being sexually harassed and/or assualted?
The whole thing has gotten confusing.
@Aleta:
Democrats do not have a reliable media outlet, like Republicans have with Rush Limbaugh, Fox News, Breitbart.com, NewsMax, The Weekly Standard, The Washington Times, The American Spectator, other local right-wing radio personalities, Sinclair Broadcasting, etc.
Democrats are stuck wondering, what story is going to blow up in their face that they should have distanced themselves from. Therefore they err on the side of distancing themselves from controversy.
But recently Democrats did make a stand on gay rights, police brutality, criminal justice reform, legalizing marijuana, immigration reform, and some other issues, I cannot think of at the moment. Those issues may have cost them the last election, but they are jot backing down from them.
I think with Franken, when the latest accuser turned out to be a Democratic Congressional staffer, at the time, it may have been a bridge to far that he creeped on one of their own.
gene108
@Feathers:
This seems to be the straw that broke the camel’s back, with regards to support for Franken from Democrats.
There was no rush to judgement until this story came out.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/06/al-franken-accusation-sexual-harassment-2006-281049
Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism
@gene108:
I thought he was talking about the Dem reactions to each panic, which were all remarkably … panicky.
As far as past conduct goes, a history of being a very unreliable witness is different from the usual stuff that’s dragged up to use against an accuser. IIRC, that’s how the Duke lacrosse case finally crashed and burned.
gene108
@Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:
I was referencing the YouTube video joel hanes posted.
She probably is a right-wing ratfucker.
Sherparick
@Aleta: I suggest everyone read Tina Dupuy’s article in the Atlantic on her encounter with Senator Franken. He has a pattern of offensive behavior with women he casually encounters. On the spectrum of offensive behavior it is creepy, but not criminal, but intolerable for Democratic Senator.
Elizabelle
@gene108: What I notice with the Politico article: the latest accuser and her two colleagues who verify the story: not one of them is identified. Totally anonymous, even the colleagues. (Believe me, there is a lot of turnover on Capitol Hill. It’s not like our topic is “female Supreme Court justices”, and who might we be talking about?)
If you are going to burn a man’s career, you can go on the record. I think that is why we are celebrating all the brave truth-tellers out there. Since she is a longtime Democratic congressional staffer, it’s entirely possible she is known to the Democratic senators, and considered a font of veracity. But the anonymity bothers me. A lot.
Politico, more than halfway down the article:
Um, could you not achieve the same effect through a personal conversation with the Senator? Or his top aides? I kind of think they would listen to you.
I am not a Franken deadender. However, there is something off about the piling on.
Amir Khalid
@Anne Laurie:
It is probably credited to him as the head of his studio, who conceived and laid out the painting and directed the work done on the less important bits by apprentices and underlings.
Shalimar
@gene108: “It’s my right as an entertainer” does sound horrible. It also sounds like something no one would be stupid enough to say, even jokingly.
different-church-lady
Well, this is refreshing: it used to be every thread turned into an argument about Bernie. This thread was actually about Bernie and it turned into an argument about Franken.
satby
@Elizabelle: well said in your first comment and quoted here. I’m so disgusted by the mob mentality demanding Franken’s resignation I had to check out of the blog yesterday. And I write him asking him not to resign. I hope he doesn’t.
satby
@gene108: and that story just smells like total bullshit.
Steve in the ATL
@different-church-lady: progress!
Woodrowfan
@lahke: um, those are determined by YOUR individual browsing habits. :)
satby
@Aleta: leaving now confirms the rumors, it doesn’t dispelled them. An investigation is needed because to this woman, who has been sexually assaulted in the way that would send the perp to prison, doesn’t think these accusations are creditable.
Woodrowfan
Franken was the most effective Senator in fighting the FCC’s attempt to strangle the internet. All of the sudden out come the accusers. huh.
Kay
@Elizabelle:
I wonder if they’re planning something if/when Moore is elected. Some ethics process leading to expulsion or something and this is partly prep for that. None of them want Moore. Obviously Republicans will take him for the vote on the rich people tax cuts and cutting Medicare but it’s Alabama- they could easily get WILL get- a Republican who isn’t a child molester nut job who makes their lives harder. Democrats have a D governor in Minnesota so they get a D replacement too.
It’d be great if Jones pulls off an upset and throws the whole thing into chaos :)
Betty Cracker
@satby: I’m torn on the Franken issue, but my disgust with the discussion here and elsewhere went in the opposite direction yours did. I’ve seen a whole lot of unfounded assumptions about good Democratic senators and more than a little misogyny.
different-church-lady
@Kay: None of them wanted Trump, but they’re not going to do a damn thing about him either.
Kay
@Woodrowfan:
And Sessions. He was cornering Sessions. The timing does bother me. A lot. The involvement of Stone bothers me too.
OTOH the response from Democrats doesn’t feel panicked or defensive to me- it often DOES, so I see why we all turn to that, but this seems coordinated and planned. They think getting rid of him is better than not getting rid of him so I’m hoping they know what they’re doing. Schumer is horrible in a lot of ways but he’s not dumb and he’s not knee jerk reactive to events.
bemused
@Mary G:
Me too. Thanks for linking to Dahlia Lithwick, Republicans built uneven playing field earlier. She’s always thoughtful and insightful. Smart, smart woman.
I love her comments on Senate institutional rules and norms devolving into empty shells and Dems only ones playing the alternative game of righteous ball an unilateral disarmament is tantamount to arming the other side.
Kay
@different-church-lady:
I know and they’;re horrible cowards but they could quietly get out of the way of some effort to expel or never seat him – and again- they’re cowards- that’s how they WOULD do it.
tobie
@Bobby Thomson: It strikes me as significant that Sander’s minions on DailyKos have been the loudest in calling for Franken’s head and that Sanders himself has not been included in the discussion of sexism and power given his deeply sexist writings in the Vermont Freeman in the 1970s. Gillibrand has for some time tried to shore up support from the Sanders wing of the party. (I wrote yesterday that I called her office during the healthcare debate to ask if the Senator considered endorsing an employer-based form of universal health coverage like they have in Germany and Switzerland and her aide told me the Senator had never heard of this model.) The talking heads on TV seem to be of the impression that this is the majority of the party. As a voter and lifelong Dem I’ve never felt more ignored.
tobie
@satby:
So true. It means there will be no investigation.
Elizabelle
Do we know what time the Franken press conference will be?
Further, I would bet he is hearing from his voters in Minnesota NOT to resign. Let this play out.
Alabama can do whatever they do down there.
Kay
Part of my concern on Franken is it’s sort of bullshit that (white) women “rise up” and become some cohesive political force in response to these events. I have been hearing this for 20 years and I have yet to see it. White women simply aren’t an identifiable, politically powerful interest group. They don’t vote in a bloc and they don’t seem to vote in numbers on “women’s issues” at all. There won’t be an appreciable drop-off of white women voters for Republicans in ’18 based on their opposition to sexual harassment. They happily supported Trump just like they would have happily supported Bush or Rubio. They’re not a political force. Anita Hill was supposed to inspire this intense backlash that moved the ball politically because white women were “fed up!” and nothing really happened.
I am a white woman and I have yet to see them show any kind of real solidarity that matters in elections. At this point I’m amazed they got the vote at all- they probably got it because they couldn’t vote against it. Suffragettes may have been a one-off.
JR
@BlueDWarrior: Robespierre will lead us to freedom!!
Kay
I’ve worked successfully and locally with Republicans twice- once with GOP parents on a school levy and once with police on a pro-union referendum. Police officers are on the whole right wingers but boy, do they care about wages and health insurance and hours rules. They are very passionate about pay.
Trump is set to screw his police buddies and they richly deserve it. Law ‘n order! They’ll all be making 15 dollars an hour. Good job, fellas.
Denali
@Sherpatrick,
Surely Trump’s behavior towards women is intolerable for a President. Where are his party’s demands for his resignation? Why do only Democrats have to resign? When the narrative has shifted towards Franken’s level of behavior, it is clear that the fix is in.
bemused
What happened to due process? I wanted an investigation because I wanted more information on the accusations which, imo, do not rise to the level of banishing Franken to sexual predator island. So the rumors will stand if he resigns.
I also want to know the real reasons the Senate Dem women ganged up together yesterday. Hysteria, political calculation of some sort that isn’t clear, they know something they aren’t telling us, what? I could barely listen to their explanations on msnbc last night. One saying, oh no, it wasn’t a coordinated effort, you betcha.
I’m fed up with Dems walking around with Just Kick Me signs on their backs. That’s what it looks like to me until they have better explanations.
Kay
For example, you’ve all seen the grass roots movement to support Ivanka Trump’s tax break for upper middle class child care, right?
Oh, you haven’t? That’s because there is no grass roots movement led by middle and upper class white women on child care tax breaks. Child care tax break, no child care tax break, they could give a shit and they don’t vote on it.
debit
@Sherparick: He touched her waist. Jesus fucking christ. Should he have put a condom on his hand first?
Kay
@bemused:
I don’t understand this “due process” argument. Franken has the senate process available. He forfeits it if he resigns. There’s no guarantee of encouragement in due process. It’s there. He picks it up or not.
Betty Cracker
@Kay: Yeah, I wouldn’t bet on white women “rising up” either, but I don’t dismiss the possibility altogether. From what I’ve seen in county-level local politics, college-educated white women (usually middle-aged and suburban) make up a large share of the influx of newly activists Democrats since the election. The majority of college-educated white women voted for Clinton over Trump, which I believe was a first for that group. They won’t make up a bloc, but if enough of them flip, it could have enormous consequences in tight races.
bemused
@Kay:
That’s just it. He is getting shoved out. If he doesn’t resign, he’s not in friendly territory for either an investigation or doing his job as senator. He’s screwed either way.
B.B.A.
@Kay: There are enough votes to expel him from the Senate with no investigation. He’s done.
James E. Powell
@Aleta:
What “bigger fight” are the Democrats ever going to wage, let alone win, if they never control all three branches of the federal government for at least three straight presidential terms?
Ramalama
Have you guys listened to the interview by Terry Gross with Jane Mayer and Rebecca Traister? Anita Hill is the topic that kicks things off, but later in the interview, they talk about ‘category confusion’ and how the degrees of bad behavior by men towards women varies greatly and shouldn’t all carry the same penalties. It’s a terrific listen.
different-church-lady
@B.B.A.: Yeah, you know, I want to see them vote to expel Franken and then leave Moore in place.
I want to see that.
Elizabelle
@Ramalama: Thank you. That looks great. Conversation with 3 intelligent, accomplished women, and no guy talking over them.
bemused
@Ramalama:
That’s what I fear is happening, that the sensible varied degrees of men’s bad behavior towards women shouldn’t carry the same penalties is getting gutted by panic rush to zero tolerance.
Raven Onthill
different-church-lady
@Raven Onthill: When Bernie says it, it’s strong strategic visionary sense.
When Hillary says it, it’s the most heinous insult ever levied against “ordinary voters” and proves she’s the worst campaigner who ever campaigned.
Amaranthine RBG
@Raven Onthill:
Yes didn’t Clinton say that the single biggest mistake of her campaign was not reaching out to the economically anxious in the right way?
ETA: I think this is the quote I saw from her book: But, in the end, she was “unable to connect with the deep anger so many Americans felt or shake the perception that I was the candidate of the status quo. And look what they’d thrown at me.”
Vlad
This is a garbage take, Anne… not that I’d expect anything else with your anti-Sanders bias.
Nothing that Sanders is saying here is any different than what George McGovern was saying about Wallace voters in the early ’70s, and he’s doing it for the same reason that McGovern did it: some of these people will flip teams if you can convince them that you’re on their side and acting in their best interest. Yes, it sucks to have to sink time and effort into the bloc of voters who plunged us into this mess in the first place, but politics isn’t all sunshine and roses, and inroads among rural and rust-belt areas are important if the Dems want to hold the House after the wave in 2018.
different-church-lady
@Amaranthine RBG: Yes. And the reason she didn’t was because the “right way” circa 2016 was to hold minorities responsible for it.
different-church-lady
@Vlad: And look how well it worked out for President McGovern
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
The Bernie robots said the same thing during the recent Virginia election. They said, forget the suburbs and exburbs, they’ll never vote for you; concentrate on the low information whites, especially in rural area.
Of course the landslide results proved them right.
David ??Merry Christmas?? Koch
Instead of pining away for low information whites, why not try to create a wave of black and latino voters like the skinny black guy with the funny mooslim name did.