Late Night Opportunistic Grifters Open Thread

Well, he never was a Democrat. And now that he’s been rejected by Democratic voters — but not before picking up an addiction to the perks of Presidential candidacy — it looks like Bernie Sanders is lunging for the “disaffected GOP populist” vote. Because Trump’s unlikely to be a candidate next time round, since the odds are he’ll be in jail or dead of a fatal infarction!

But I don’t think he’ll win *that* primary, either. I stumbled over this clip from last month’s televised “tax debate”, and what I see is a flustered old man getting pantsed by Ted Cruz and Tim Scott, hardly the deadliest assailants. Good fun for GOP sadists during the early primaries, but Repubs aren’t pity-voters.

Murphy the Trickster God, do I get tired of these crappy never-ending premature reboots!

170 replies
  1. 1

    Sanders is no fan of immigration or trade either, that kind of got lost in all the shuffle.

  2. 2
    BlueDWarrior says:

    So many people on the nominal left are so deeply uncomfortable with racialized politics they will refuse to acknowledge it exists.

    There are a lot of voters who’d embrace social democracy so long as it was a social herrenvolk democracy.

  3. 3
    Dog Dawg Damn says:

    I’m triggered by the word “deals” and wish people would find a way to avoid saying it altogether if possible. I don’t remember so many people calling every negotiation “making deals” before this year, so I’m hoping it will be retired with Trump’s “Presidency”, preferably soon.

  4. 4


    There are a lot of voters who’d embrace social democracy so long as it was a social herrenvolk democracy.

    We call them ‘Republicans’.

  5. 5
    Mary G says:

    All I want for Christmas is for Wilmer to go the fuck away.

  6. 6
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    I’ve always questioned if European nations had the history we’ve had and had large numbers of minorities that they would have social democracy either.

  7. 7
    Dog Dawg Damn says:

    @Major Major Major Major: the Republican base.

  8. 8
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Mary G:

    All I want for Christmas is for Wilmer to go the fuck away.

    Think of him as the unfunny Pat Paulsen. Or one of those one-hit 70s bands that still make a living touring state fairs and coffeehouses within driving distance of their home base.

    Whenever I see his face these days, I flash back to an old greeting card: [on the front]You’re right, I don’t deserve you. [inside] I don’t deserve my hemorrhoids either, but that’s life.

  9. 9
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    I refuse to call them that. They don’t really believe in republicanism. I use GOP, Gropy Oligarch Party.

  10. 10
    Cacti says:

    Thing Wilmer actually said in the past 5 weeks:

    “Yes. I mean, I think we’ve got to work in two ways,” Sanders answered. “Number one, we have got to take on Trump’s attacks against the environment, against women, against Latinos and blacks and people in the gay community, we’ve got to fight back every day on those issues. But equally important, or more important: We have got to focus on bread-and-butter issues that mean so much to ordinary Americans.

    Bernie believes racism is bad, mmmkay?

    But we can’t forget the “ordinary Americans”.

  11. 11
    Elizabelle says:

    What did Trump say that made sense? I could care less about the junior senator from Vermont. Who is NOT a Democrat.

    I fervently hope Al Franken does NOT resign today. Let the ethics investigation play out; why take down a hard-working senator in what is becoming a witch hunt? I would not be saying the same thing if Franken’s (alleged) transgressions were like Anthony Wiener’s dick shots — Wiener had to go, and took too long doing it.

    But this one feels more like ratfucking and a rush to judgement. I say that as pretty much a low information voter on the topic.

    I am in Germany. Have not seen an American TV broadcast in weeks now. No cable news. It’s wonderful. Pretty much catch my news from BJ and some limited reading of WaPost, LATimes (the fires!), and FTF NYTimes (which gave prime real estate to Kirsten Gillibrand and other “Democratic women” demanding Franken’s resignation).

    I was roaming around NYC the day the first allegation surfaced. I could not believe the mob mentality here, and tried to comment but kept losing the wifi connection. My comment would have been along lines of “cool your jets, people.”

    Here’s a link to readers’ comments at NYTimes story. If you sort them by “readers picks”, you will see there is no rush to insist Franken resign. The numbers kind of pleased and surprised me, given what the shrillness in blogland.

    There is a huge difference between Roy Moore and Al Franken, or John Conyers and Al Franken, or any of the media, entertainment, and infotainment big shots taken down by numerous credible and verified sexual harrassment and assault charges.

    That is not Franken’s situation, as far as I can see.

    I don’t see why we cannot support our Democratic politicians who deserve a second chance, and Franken certainly does. I cannot stand the internet rush to judgment. It makes me sad Franken may pay the price, while the fucking Republicans will brazen it out, with far more craven behavior. Again.

    This whole episode has made me ashamed to be a Democrat. And fuck Gillibrand. She is dead to me. Wasn’t she dumping on Bill Clinton recently? I hope her ambitions remain limited to NY State.

  12. 12
    Wmd says:

    What do you call a party that goes out of it’s way to alienate 46% of those who voted in the most recent presidential primary? Seems kind of moronic to me, especially when they affirmatively support candidates opposed to a woman’s right to choose.

  13. 13
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Cacti: Golly, I wonder what the phrase “ordinary Americans” is a dogwhistle for?

  14. 14
    Matt says:

    We keep voting on Trump voters, instead of the 5% of voters who went 3rd party, higher %s in some specific states, what are we doing to get those voters?

  15. 15
    danielx says:

    @Anne Laurie:

    Whenever I see his face these days, I flash back to an old greeting card: [on the front]You’re right, I don’t deserve you. [inside] I don’t deserve my hemorrhoids either, but that’s life.

    Reminds me of the one with the inside greeting that said “most people I know have hemorrhoids, but you are a perfect asshole”.

  16. 16
  17. 17
    Elizabelle says:

    Putting up the top rated NY Times readers comments on the Franken story (A Democratic Chorus Rises in the Senate: “Franken should resign”):

    MSP Downingtown, PA 11 hours ago
    So, Democrats are taking the moral high ground. Where does it get them when the other side flaunts its debauchery and hypocrisy, pushes the limits further, wins elections, and dismantles decades of progress. There’s probably not a squeaky clean politician on any side. There’s a continuum of bad behavior and the harm it has caused. Let’s define it and move forward, because if Trump and Moore aren’t standing aside, the Democrats will continue to fuel backlash. They will never win back seats if they eat their own.

    2126 Recommend

    Sandy CA 11 hours ago
    I’m officially done. I will probably not vote again. What’s the use? I vote a Democrat into the Senate and she turns around and does the Republicans’ jobs for them. Last I checked accusation is not proof.


    Parker NY 11 hours ago
    Did I miss something? Have the accusations escalated beyond insulting, immature behavior in public settings? This is what these senators find not merely worthy of condemnation but resignation? Good grief. Franken has been a remarkable public servant and we owe the Mueller investigative to his prescient questioning of Jeff Sessions. While I’d agree none of that would matter if he’d been revealed to be of low moral character, that is not the case here and has never been suggested. Bad behavior is equal to predation? There is no gray area, no rehabilitation, no apology suffices? This is extremism of the worst kind. I’m shocked that my senator and women I’ve long admired have revealed themselves to be either so simplistic or so politically craven.

    1808 Recommend

    Gary Sloane
    11 hours ago
    Just a hypothetical question or two here:

    What if the Senate Ethics Committee examines the allegations and Franken’s behavior and issues a mild reprimand, or even “censure”? Does he still need to go? Should he be forced out before that can happen?

    Where is the line between a dumb prank like the USO tour photo — wrong, offensive, not funny — and child molestation and other forms of actual sexual assault?

    To me, there’s a world of difference between the behavior of Al Franken and the likes of Donald Trump, Roy Moore or even, not to be partisan, Anthony Wiener.

    Reply 1668Recommend

    Sandra New York 12 hours ago
    How come only democrats have to resign?

    1523 Recommend

  18. 18
    justawriter says:

    TLDR: Because of structural bullshit 52% of the popular vote is no longer enough to get an electoral college victory. Therefore we should ignore efforts that could get us more votes because we already won the popular vote.

  19. 19

    @Anne Laurie: Sometimes I think of the classic Lebowski line, you’re not wrong, [wilmer], you’re just an asshole, man!

  20. 20
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    What about people disenfranchised? I think I care more about getting those votes than those of purity dead enders.

  21. 21
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    What’s your point?

  22. 22
    B.B.A. says:

    I call on Bernie to resign from the Senate.

    …do I need a reason?

  23. 23
  24. 24
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    The papers he wrote in college about rape might be.

  25. 25
    Anne Laurie says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Golly, I wonder what the phrase “ordinary Americans” is a dogwhistle for?

    Yeah, he also consistently refers to “average voters” as separate from “women”, who are just another “special interest group”.

  26. 26
  27. 27
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mary G: I gotta put up with Manchin for his vote, you got to put up with Sanders.

  28. 28
    TenguPhule says:

    @Elizabelle: So like Balloonjuice but with more common sense.

  29. 29
    Elizabelle says:

    Continuing, and I am not selecting or editing any out. These are the top NY Times reader’s comments, in order. I think Gillibrand shat her own bed, personally.

    Rick Gage Mt Dora 11 hours ago
    This false moral equivalence that the Democratic Senators are imposing on a man who has called for his own ethics inquiry so we can gauge the credibility of his accusers will not help in the greater attempt to shine a light on sexual harassers. It just trivializes the greater harm done to those with legitimate claims of forced intimacy and job discrimination. If they think using Sen. Franken as a sacrificial lamb will assuage the Republicans who are claiming this false equivalence they are surely mistaken. This makes them look panicked, unreasonable and reactionary. If the accusers were truly harmed I agree he should go but he has denied these claims and the Senators are calling for him to be burned at the stake before we know whether this is a witch hunt or not.

    1449 Recommend

    Cornflower Rhys Washington, DC 11 hours ago
    I’m not impressed with the Democratic women. The Senate has a process and Senator Franken has indicated his willingness to be subject to it. Go forward with some orderly procedure – let these women appear and speak under oath. It would be a healthy reminder of what due process looks like. I’d say we all need a reminder.

    1437 Recommend

    David Henderson Manchester CT 12 hours ago
    Franken does not serve Congress or the country. I hope he serves his constituents, and they do not seem to want him to resign. Repeated polls show about 70% of folks in his home state do not want him to resign. He should let that be his guide, not the desires of his colleagues trying to make a statement. He is entitled to due process, or does that no longer matter in America?

    1355 Recommend

    Bluewater Northwest

    10 hours ago
    Senator Franken should not resign. These dem senators should not be calling for his resignation. The people of Minnesota should be the ones who call for his resignation. If they are not doing so in significant numbers, than Senator Franken should not resign. He represents Minnesota – not the other democratic senators. If my senator was calling for his resignation I would be very concerned and let them know they have overstepped. Let Minnesota decide this. He works for them.

    1189 Recommend

    Talbot New York 12 hours ago
    This is a quote from the Washington Post on this story:

    “In recent days, the Democratic women senators had spoken privately among themselves about the situation, agreeing that they could not tolerate Franken’s presence as allegations continued trickling out.”

    Guess what? I could tolerate him. So could millions of others. And least until the investigation was concluded. Whether these senators could manage to should not be the overriding factor here.

    I fully support the resignations for many who have been charged. But as far as Franken is concerned, we are now in witch hunt territory.

    1156 Recommend

    Scientifically Speaking Ann Arbor, MI 12 hours ago
    Absolutely, right after the Abuser in Chief resigns.

    987 Recommend

    NM NY 10 hours ago
    The thing is, Franken has acknowledged, and apologized for, poor behavior and welcomed an Ethics Committee investigation. When he could not place himself in someone’s account, he acknowledged the validity of an accuser’s feelings. And he is being asked to leave.
    People like Trump and Moore, who reject any responsibility for predatory conduct, grandstand about their own supposed character and disparage their accusers, face no consequences.

    984 Recommend

    LB Chicago 10 hours ago
    Senator Franken has been an honorable public servant. He has done much good for his constituents, the majority of whom want him to remain seated in the Senate. However, he has been accused of grossly inappropriate conduct. He admitted that this behavior occurred, showed remorse, and requested a thorough ethics investigation. If the investigation results indicate he should resign, then he should do so. Until that time he should continue to serve. I would also add that, while I do not in any way condone his behavior–it was stupid and sophomoric–it does not, to me, fall in the same realm as the harassment and predatory behavior shown by Roy Moore, Harvey Weinstein, Rep. Conyers, and President Trump.

    896 Recommend

    jmac Seattle WA 12 hours ago
    Why is it that Democrats insist on doing the right thing, and Republicans only care about winning?

    888 Recommend

    k Arizona 8 hours ago
    I am a feminist, a woman has dealt with sexual harassment and assault, and a former Minnesotan, and I do not want Senator Franken to resign. His past actions are vastly different from those of Roy Moore, Donald Trump, Anthony Wiener, Harvey Weinstein, Kevin Spacey, etc. Why are his only options denial or resignation? Why are we incapable in this country of gradations of opinion and consequences?


    That’s enough to give you the gist (and then some). But why this rush to judgment, for capital punishment for a good public servant, who has taken his duties seriously?

    I am disgusted with these “Democratic women.” It is a witchhunt, and this is ratfucking taken exponential. It’s now blowing back on “Democratic women Senators.”

  30. 30
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Tell me about it. Is justawriter talking about the post? Why would pursuing Trump voters get us to the required amount to win and beat the EC? And where is that 52% coming from?

  31. 31
    Yarrow says:


    Sandy CA 11 hours ago
    I’m officially done. I will probably not vote again.

    That’s just stupid. Voting is pretty much the only tool we have to get the people we want in positions where they can enact policies we like. Not voting is not going to get Sandy CA policies she likes. If she’s unhappy with her elected official then let them know on a regular basis and work to elect someone else. When we disengage from the process our democracy dies.

  32. 32
    Ithink says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Its certain what made me regret (somewhat) voting for him in the most recent primaries. Can’t believe he wrote that nonsense! He was trying g to be Woody Allen without the wit & Larry Sanders without the surrealist irony.

  33. 33


    why take down a hard-working senator in what is becoming a witch hunt?

    Witch hunt is the phrase madame used to describe the the Franken stuff.

  34. 34
    Anne Laurie says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Oh my god those are super sketchy.

    Not for “radical” men back in the early 1970s, alas. But that was a generation or more before the RoseBros were even born, and they think of 2012 as irrelevant ancient history.

  35. 35
    Elizabelle says:

    @TenguPhule: Yeah. I am disgusted with the libtard intertubes. Disgusted.

  36. 36

    @Ithink: I agree that it was a failed attempt at… something, but oh my god what the fuck

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: I don’t think I care right now.

  37. 37
    Arclite says:

    I think that Franken should step down just as soon as Trump and Clarence Thomas do.

  38. 38
    Matt says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: That’s fair too, I still think we spend too much time talking about Trump voters. They voted on illegal immigration most of them.

  39. 39

    @Anne Laurie: Yep, I’ve read similar things by men of a similar vintage written at a similar time. That does not make them less super sketchy.

  40. 40
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:


    Sandy CA policies she likes. If she’s unhappy with her elected official then let them know on a regular basis and work to elect someone else. When we disengage from the process our democracy dies.

    I’m sure Sandy CA would rather watch football or Dancing with the Stars like a good American than worry her little head about “democracy” or “ethics”.

  41. 41
    Elizabelle says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: Yes. It’s become a hysteria.

    When I saw Time had chosen #metoo — with the recognizable and highly paid white wimmens leading the charge — I just felt sick for Senator Franken, who might pay the price for those with far more serious — and proven — transgressions.

    I think Democrats are cowardly when they pull this kind of shit. Think, people. Just about everything in life is on a continuum of some sort.

    Don’t let cable TV drive you into hysteria, and that seems to be what is happening.

  42. 42

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: @Matt: Remember when that neoliberal Clinton lackey whore McAuliffe restored voting rights to 150,000 felons in Virginia?

  43. 43
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Matt: The media talks too much about Trump voters. Probably because they still can’t fathom 62 million people choosing to pull the lever for a fascist bigoted fop like Trump. I could care less about them. If some want to say “mea culpa” and come over to our side more power to them. But all of Trump’s bullshit is ultimately on Trump’s voters because they empowered racism and authoritarianism by electing him.

  44. 44
    Elizabelle says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Stop dumping on “Sandy.” You two conveniently leave out the second part of his/her comment. And it appears this commenter DID vote. For Gillibrand or some other female Democratic Senator.

    What’s the use? I vote a Democrat into the Senate and she turns around and does the Republicans’ jobs for them. Last I checked accusation is not proof.

    Why don’t you address that part of the comment, or the others put up?

  45. 45
    Ithink says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    More than likely not but you never know for sure; many developed European nations are now struggling to keep their generous welfare states up because they have such a vastly parallel history regarding labor & other human rights in comparison to the U.S. If slavery & genocide of the First Nation peoples hadn’t happened, we ourselves may have universal health care, basic income, free college and other incredible social democrats amenities by now for a while but who knows? The oligarchic forces and aristocratic armies of each society manage to transform and obfuscate throughout the ages. They could very well have an even tighter grip here than they have presently in even an alternative universe scenario.

  46. 46
    TenguPhule says:


    Think, people.

    You are asking for too much from our party.

  47. 47
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Yeah that was awful. Why doesn’t Terry care about ordinary Americans?

    /I would seriously like to know the impact that had on Virginia’s elections a few weeks ago.

  48. 48
    chopper says:

    jesus, this buffoon still thinks he can woo trump voters with socialism?

    what in all fuck.

  49. 49
    TenguPhule says:

    @Arclite: I think Franken should skull fuck Susan Collins on the Senate floor. Then give Gillibrand a nice big middle finger salute.

    Anyone who says women are better at this whole power thing just needs to look at those two to see how wrong they are.

  50. 50
    Brachiator says:


    That’s just stupid. Voting is pretty much the only tool we have to get the people we want in positions where they can enact policies we like. Not voting is not going to get Sandy CA policies she likes

    All the more reason for not negating votes by playing premature resignation games.

  51. 51
    lahke says:

    So why am I seeing scantily-clad hot Russian singles ads on BJ? More cunning work by Putin to distract us from these excellent discussions? Part of the Twitler’s hotel history?

    Oh, and why on earth is a Saudi prince buying Salvator Mundi? Graven images are a Muslim no-no, no?

  52. 52
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    I admit I didn’t read the original.

  53. 53
    NotMax says:

    @Major Major Major Major

    Hmm By pleading guilty to a felony charge, Flynn became a felon. And lives in Virginia (for now – guessing he’s gonna take a bath on the sale).


  54. 54
    T S says:

    @Elizabelle: If they don’t vote again because of Franken’s resignation, they are as dumb as any fucking Trump supporter. Maybe we are obligated to woo them, but holy fuck, if they don’t vote and get fucked by plutocracy, fuck em. Don’t want to hear the next version of “butter emails” for another four years. But his resignation!!!!

  55. 55
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    Jesus Christ, how long is every thread going to turn into a Franken nankin’

    can’t we get back to fighting about Sanders?

  56. 56
    Brachiator says:


    Oh, and why on earth is a Saudi prince buying Salvator Mundi? Graven images are a Muslim no-no, no?

    When have Saudi Princes ever lived by the rules?

  57. 57
  58. 58

    @Brachiator: More importantly, that painting is terrible, why would anybody spend that kind of money on it?

  59. 59
    Elizabelle says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Franken could get forced out THIS week. It’s timely. And it would be wrong, and set a terrible precedent.

    I am bored, bored, bored, bored, bored with Wilmer. Bored, I tell you. I have heard his one note.

  60. 60
    Yarrow says:

    @Elizabelle: I was the one who quoted the first bit and not the second bit. I did that on purpose because I felt the rest of the comment didn’t add a lot to the first. But I’ll address it. First Sandy CA says she won’t vote again. Then “What’s the use?” As I said previously, the “use” is that’s how democracy works. We vote. We don’t always get what we want with our votes, but that’s our system. Suggesting that voting is useless with “what’s the use” comments is doing Republicans’ jobs for them. One less D vote might as well be an R vote.

    If she did vote for Gillibrand and she’s suggesting that Gillibrand might as well be a Republican, then I think she is wrong. Gillibrand has been a good D vote. Calling for Franken to resign is wrong, imho, but it doesn’t make Gillibrand a Republican.

    I think Sandy CA is wrong to suggest voting is useless just because Sen. Gillibrand does something that Sandy doesn’t like. As I said above, if you don’t like what your elected official does, let them know and work to get someone else elected.

  61. 61
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @Major Major Major Major:
    Just not the Twilight kind please.

    Did anybody read “Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter”?

  62. 62
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Major Major Major Major: actually, I think you mean strigoi

  63. 63
    Mary G says:

    @Elizabelle: Preach it, Sister. I think a public ethics committee hearing would go a long way for women to explain their boundaries in terms of appropriate and inappropriate touching.

  64. 64
  65. 65
    Elizabelle says:

    @Yarrow: I thought the meat of Sandy’s comment was the part you left out. I took Sandy’s comment as frustration and futility. It was less about not voting than having a person she voted for turn around and do the GOP’s work.

    Gillibrand may not be a Republican, but she is sure doing them a huge favor.


  66. 66
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I don’t want to talk about Eric Prince.

  67. 67
    Gretchen says:

    @Elizabelle: We all need to remember that Leeann Tweeden led the charge against Shirley Sherrod, saying she had to résign because she was racist about whites. We know for a fact that she’s willing to lie to take a Democrat down, yet people believed that she just happened to feel she needed to do this the week after Franken showed himself a powerful voice agains Sessions’ lies. He wanted a chance to defend himself, called for the ethics investigation himself, yet we couldn’t grant him that. He put his hand on a woman’s waist during a photo-op, an was lied about by a lying liar, so he had to go down today. This is a hit, plain and simple.

  68. 68
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    I’m mostly curious how we feel about half-vampires.

    Overdone in fiction.

    Kill em all.

  69. 69

    @Mary G: Yup, it would be a good teaching moment.

  70. 70
    Brachiator says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    More importantly, that painting is terrible, why would anybody spend that kind of money on it?

    Because they could. I look at this as a preview of what will come if tax cut madness is passed.

    ETA. Never read Abe Lincoln, Vampire Hunter. But the movie was surprisingly fun.

  71. 71
    NotMax says:

    @Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe)

    Aware it exists. Have not read the book nor seen the film.

  72. 72
    Anne Laurie says:


    Oh, and why on earth is a Saudi prince buying Salvator Mundi? Graven images are a Muslim no-no, no?

    I think the rationalization is that he didn’t buy it for personal use, he bought it for the Abu Dhabi “branch” of the Louvre.

    In actual fact, of course, he bought it because high-dollar, institutionally certified Art is an investment — some ridiculous percentage of the prestige auction sale items go straight from one tax-avoiding richie’s climate-controlled storage vault to another climate-controlled storage vault. (For less than tv-worthy items, I’m told sometimes the piece doesn’t even get taken out of its bin; the auctioneer uses a reproduction, and once the sale is processed, the new owner’s title gets slapped on the door.)

    From what little I’ve seen from art critics, Salvatore Mundi may be as much as 15% Leonardo’s work, at best. So the Saudi prince would’ve been cheated if he actually thought he was getting a daVinci original… but as a measure of prestige/unit of investment value, what’s the difference?

  73. 73

    @TenguPhule: …as opposed to vampires, somehow?

  74. 74
    NotMax says:

    @Major Major Major Major

    Depends what the other half is.

  75. 75
    Elizabelle says:

    @Gretchen: Yes. It was huge to me that the first accuser was not entirely believable and had an agenda. And right after Roger Stone opened his yap.

    I am ashamed of the Democrats who would rather eat one of their own than wait out the process.

    I was not sorry to see Conyers step down. Entirely different situation, with a financial settlement, and not sorry to see newer blood take office there. And it need not be Conyers’ own blood. (Jeebus, isn’t his own son in the running?)

  76. 76

    @NotMax: let’s try human! Kind of the default assumption when it’s unspecified, I think.

  77. 77
    Yarrow says:

    @Elizabelle: I saw Sandy CA’s comment as a comment meant to discourage people from participating in our democratic system. “It’s all useless! Why bother voting!” That’s childish and not how the system works.

    I understand the frustration with Sen Gillibrand, but saying “I’m done. I’m not voting again.” is not the way to deal with that frustration. The fact that so many people recommended the comment is discouraging to me.

  78. 78
    Gretchen says:

    @Elizabelle: Was that how Roger Stone was involved? He predicted that Franken would go down before it happened?

  79. 79
    Elizabelle says:

    @Gretchen: I think he did.

    Mind you, I was just beginning my travel at the time. But I think Stone did exactly that. I’m not sure he named Franken. But it was “watch this.” And then up pops Leeanne.

    @Yarrow: We’ve exhausted “Sandy’s” comment.

    How about taking up some of the others?

    I have been cruising the most recent of the NYTimes reader comments on the stories too. That is often where you find the trolls and comments that don’t attract recommendations.

    They are solid on Franken not resigning as well.

  80. 80
    different-church-lady says:

    So basically Sanders repeats the “deplorables” comment.

    It will be informative to see if he gets pilloried for it in the same way Clinton did.

  81. 81
    NotMax says:

    @Major Major Major Major

    As would have to develop in utero, perhaps a succubus as the mother might make for a more amenable gestation.

    (Of course if one subscribes to the vampires not aging part of the mythology, then the newborn could well be destined to remain at that age.)

  82. 82
    Yarrow says:

    @Gretchen: The night before the Tweeden accusation dropped, Roger Stone tweeted out that it was going to be Al Franken’s time in the barrel. It has to be some kind of hit job. Roger Stone is disgusting.

  83. 83
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA: where’s Mnems tonight? Ate at Granville Cafe tonight per her suggestion. Was excellent.

  84. 84
    Anne Laurie says:


    We all need to remember that Leeann Tweeden led the charge against Shirley Sherrod, saying she had to résign because she was racist about whites.

    In my fantasy, during his press conference later this morning, Franken produces a printout of the correspondence between Tweeden and the RNC/Trump office/Mercer minion who set up the plot. Because, like you, I’m sure the paperwork is out there!

  85. 85
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Jesus Christ, how long is every thread going to turn into a Franken nankin’

    can’t we get back to fighting about Sanders?

    Bernie would have made Franken resign

  86. 86
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    I think Ferguson was a major factor. It solidified many whites’ conviction that all blacks are petty crooks and/or thugs with zero respect for ‘law and civilized society.’ The only reasonable response therefore is surrounding them with barbed wire walls, giving them limited, closely monitored freedom.

    That’s similar to what I’ve heard here in OK.L

  87. 87

    @NotMax: In some places, they used to suspect babies who were born nine months after the father died of being half-vampires.

  88. 88
    Yarrow says:

    @Elizabelle: I found the other comments offer a variety of opinions as to why Franken shouldn’t resign. Most of the takes repeat what I’ve seen elsewhere. I don’t have a particular opinion on those comments. I just thought the one saying voting was useless was dumb.

  89. 89
    NotMax says:

    @Major Major Major Major

    who were born nine months after the father spouse died

    Altered for self-evident reason.

  90. 90

    @NotMax: Absolutely no reason the spouse couldn’t have been the father.

    ETA but yes i see what you did there

  91. 91
    Viva BrisVegas says:


    I am ashamed of the Democrats who would rather eat one of their own than wait out the process.

    Surely you recall the way that Congressional Democrats nearly trampled each other in the rush to stick the shiv into the back of ACORN on the basis of a patently fake neo-nazi agitprop video?

    Or how Democrats were so eager to believe Andrew Breitbart over Shirley Sherrod.

  92. 92

    @Steve in the ATL: Not sure, I was a block away from you @ Target getting drugs.

  93. 93
    GregB says:

    I see the Franken matter in the same vein asthe ebola virus story during Obama admin. or yes, ACORN.

    A media driven frenzy.

  94. 94
    Elizabelle says:

    @Viva BrisVegas: Yes. Long history of cowardice like that, to tarnish Democrats’ genuine courage: voting rights, human rights, healthcare rights, environmental protection.

    And the cowardice gets noticed, while voters and other observers take the courageous stands for granted, because “both sides.” Although both sides do not show integrity and actual courage. (Recklessness, yes, on the GOP side. Democrats’ caution gets derided. Daddy vs. Mommy politics. It’s quite sad.)

    I don’t want to see another own goal by the Democrats. Wake up.

  95. 95
    Aleta says:

    Is it possible the Dem politicians calling for his resignation are not doing it to show moral superiority; and not because they think his actions deserve it? But only because of sad political calculation–that the stakes are incredibly high and they would be taking the bait set out by Rs if they defend Franken on principle now. The risk being that an accusation dropping every week, whether legitimate or not, would take the focus off Moore, off defeating the tax bill, off the damage to Trump and Kushner as news of Mueller’s work breaks.

    So Sessions has won his revenge on Franken, but fighting that battle now may risk losing the bigger fights they need to win for the country. Is it possible they lose no matter what they do, and they figure Franken’s best chance of survival has become leaving now, with chance of returning later ?

  96. 96
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    …as opposed to vampires, somehow?

    Did I say I don’t want all the vampires dead too?

  97. 97
    GregB says:

    Prior to the Franken story dropping, Stone Tweeted it will be ‘his time in the barrel.’ The exact same thing he wrote before the weeks long campaign involving Podesta’s stolen emails and accusations that he is rapist who drinks children’s blood.

    Tom Arnold Tweeted today that Tweeden had been coached by co workers and Stone prior to her story being revealed.

    There is also a campaign against Sam Seder using an out if context comment by Cernovich who actually is an advocate of rape and admits he’s enjoying the character assassination hit job he’s involved in.

    3 of the accusers are totally anonymous.

  98. 98
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Gretchen: I confess, I had forgotten about her previous claim to fame. Should have consulted the Wiki. Perhaps she is the creep I suspected from the first but I was brow beaten by others into believing that it was WRONG, WRONG, WRONG to question anything any accuser ever says about a male Democratic Senator.

  99. 99
    Brachiator says:

    From WaPo

    The wealthiest 1 percent of American households own 40 percent of the country’s wealth, according to a new paper by economist Edward N. Wolff. That share is higher than it has been at any point since at least 1962, according to Wolff’s data, which comes from the federal Survey of Consumer Finances.

    Which is, of course, why the wealthy need a tax cut.

  100. 100
    Elizabelle says:

    @Aleta: I think the Democrats should treat voters as adults. Yes, it is bait set out by Republicans. And yes, there is a continuum of sexual harrassment and assault activities.

    Roy Moore does not equal Al Franken. At all. What the Democrats, particularly their women senators are doing, if done for political reasons, is craven. It’s sacrificing a flawed but good man’s career for expedience, and sending the message that Democrats will not protect their own (within reason). This is a far different case than Anthony Weiner or John Conyers.

    And to judge these men solely on sexual proclivities and allegations, and not on their political views and fitness for high public office: isn’t that falling for the trap that got us Clarence Thomas?

    Because the best course of action there would have been to vote against Thomas for being unqualified. And he is unqualified for a Supreme Court seat. As is Neal Gorsuch. As Anthony Kennedy has become. (Too many factual errors and assumptions by Kennedy in recent years.)

    SO: consider Roy Moore for having been thrown off the Supreme Court of Alabama. Twice. For running a charity that is enriching himself and his wife. He is a horrible public servant. Poor judgment, incompetent, does not understand the reason for separation of church and state.

    Which is hardly the case with Al Franken. Who has taken his work seriously, and studied hard. He’s also raised a lot of money for his party. Shown loyalty, and patience.

    If you must judge on sexual mores: Moore was banned from a Gadsden AL mall for preying on underage women.

    Nothing Franken has been accused of rises anywhere near that history.

    If you treat Americans as adults, and a lot more of them are, they will see that. Give them a chance.

    We are all focusing on the Trump voters, when Hillary’s were more numerous. It’s a mistake. It’s appalling we have so many badly informed and terrible voters, but they are not the majority, nationally.

  101. 101

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:
    Surprisingly good. Its characterisation of slaveholders as a species of vampire is right on the money.

  102. 102
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Aleta: No. SATSQ

  103. 103
    MomSense says:


    Taylor Swift is not the woman who is afraid to speak up because she can’t afford to lose her job.

    I join you in your disgust.

  104. 104
    Elizabelle says:

    @Amir Khalid: Well that’s interesting. Now maybe I will read it.

  105. 105

    In this context, “political calculation” is a euphemism for cowardice. Franken has a right to due process like any accused person. Defending that right is the only proper thing to do. The Democratic party should not let itself be panicked into abandoning principle — not now, not ever.

  106. 106

    @Elizabelle: Craven was the word i was thinking.

  107. 107
    Elizabelle says:

    @MomSense: Corra is not down with it either.

    @Amir Khalid: Agreed. 100%. It’s a stampede to cowardice.

    The media follows suit. I see reports that Franken’s support is “collapsing.” Among Democratic senators, I guess. Who are — what 45+ primarily high income individuals, and not representative of the vast number of Democratic voters?

    Publishing the Gillibrand story to up the pressure on Franken is another reason it’s Fuck the Fucking New York Times. And yet another case where their readers are not buying what FTF NYT is trying to sell them.

  108. 108
    Elizabelle says:


    Is it possible they lose no matter what they do, and they figure Franken’s best chance of survival has become leaving now, with chance of returning later ?

    If they lose no matter what they do, show some damn spine, Democrats. It actually appeals to voters.

    WRT Franken returning later: “Disgraced former Senator Al Franken today opened his campaign for …” Uh. No.

  109. 109
    SWMBO says:

    Senator Ted Kennedy had a less than stellar record regarding women as I recall. With more serious implications. Yet the voters of Massachusetts reelected him. More than once. Let Franken go through the process and see what the republican controlled committee says. Franken knew the republicans were in charge of the committee when he asked them to investigate. This has ratfuck written all over it.

  110. 110
    Kathleen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: I remember NPR “reporter’s” outrage because a Va Rethuglican accused him of playing politics and McAuliffe refused to say he was playing politics. “Reporter” kept hammering him to admit to it because Rethuglican said it so it must be true. One of many, many reasons why I no longer listen to NPR.

  111. 111
    Kathleen says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷: I disagree. They obsess over them because they agree with them, Trump and Rethuglicans. Evidently Chuckles Toddler said Dems were looking to take back the moral high ground. (I didn’t hear it but saw it on Twitter). As if Rethuglicans could ever claim moral high ground on any level. This is what we’re dealing with in mainslime media.

  112. 112
    Kathleen says:

    @Major Major Major Major: There’s a difference?

  113. 113
    Kathleen says:

    @Aleta: I agree with you. It’s political calculation.

  114. 114
    J R in WV says:

    @🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷:

    Yes, I read that. Pretty much the traditional undead monster Vampires. Not the Anne Rice elegant French nobel-dead. Which I don’t enjoy much at all.

  115. 115
    opiejeanne says:

    @Kathleen: I read the last two words of your last sentence as manslime media.

  116. 116
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: While it’s seldom pleasant, one useful byproduct of fiery debates like this is that everyone gets a good look at who their putative allies really are. Your comment, for example, is revealing.

  117. 117
    Kathleen says:

    @opiejeanne: Oops! Thanks! I meant mainslime! I blame the early hour! And Hillary.

  118. 118
    prostratedragon says:

    Alternative presidential march, or what you will, with evocative painting:

    Moussorsky, “Ballet of the Unhatched Chick”

    Someone should do a piano and high-hat version.

  119. 119
    joel hanes says:


    Leeann Tweeden led the charge against Shirley Sherrod, saying she had to résign because she was racist about whites.

    Dems are apparently subject to purity-panic attacks in which they score or help score own-goals.

    Jocelyn Elders
    Shirley Sherrod

    Also : a 2006 USO show that may be of interest

  120. 120
    Bobby Thomson says:

    The most nefarious of Sanders’ misdeeds (and they are legion) has been to give cover to the idea that bigoted whites were voting for Trump for some reason other than their prejudices. Until he shows all his taxes, and maybe not even then, you can’t convince me he’s not in the pay of Republicans or Russians or both.

  121. 121
    Feathers says:

    The main thing that strikes me as different about Franken is that there hasn’t been an immediate rush of stories about how everybody knew this all along, of the horrible pressures and powers that were brought to bear on the victims to keep them quiet. In fact, every attempt be those who have known and worked with Franken to defend him has been treated as an outrage. This has led to a situation where I don’t feel any sense of knowing what actually happened. Was this just part of his comedian, wiseass persona that made women laugh most of the time, but really offended enough that he should have cut it out long ago? AKA the Joe Biden story? There just doesn’t seem to be any of the predatory escalations that we’ve seen in the other cases, the deep misogyny and contempt for women.

    The lack of reporting out on the Franken stories is weird. The ugly pile ons when women defend men publicly accused of abuse may be having a chilling effect.

  122. 122
    gene108 says:

    @joel hanes:

    I thought we are not supposed to hold a woman’s past conduct against her, with regards to her claims of being sexually harassed and/or assualted?

    The whole thing has gotten confusing.


    Democrats do not have a reliable media outlet, like Republicans have with Rush Limbaugh, Fox News,, NewsMax, The Weekly Standard, The Washington Times, The American Spectator, other local right-wing radio personalities, Sinclair Broadcasting, etc.

    Democrats are stuck wondering, what story is going to blow up in their face that they should have distanced themselves from. Therefore they err on the side of distancing themselves from controversy.

    But recently Democrats did make a stand on gay rights, police brutality, criminal justice reform, legalizing marijuana, immigration reform, and some other issues, I cannot think of at the moment. Those issues may have cost them the last election, but they are jot backing down from them.

    I think with Franken, when the latest accuser turned out to be a Democratic Congressional staffer, at the time, it may have been a bridge to far that he creeped on one of their own.

  123. 123
    gene108 says:


    A former Democratic congressional aide said Al Franken tried to forcibly kiss her after a taping of his radio show in 2006, three years before he became a U.S. senator.

    This seems to be the straw that broke the camel’s back, with regards to support for Franken from Democrats.

    There was no rush to judgement until this story came out.

  124. 124
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:


    I thought we are not supposed to hold a woman’s past conduct against her, with regards to her claims of being sexually harassed and/or assualted?

    I thought he was talking about the Dem reactions to each panic, which were all remarkably … panicky.

    As far as past conduct goes, a history of being a very unreliable witness is different from the usual stuff that’s dragged up to use against an accuser. IIRC, that’s how the Duke lacrosse case finally crashed and burned.

  125. 125
    gene108 says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    I was referencing the YouTube video joel hanes posted.

    She probably is a right-wing ratfucker.

  126. 126
    Sherparick says:

    @Aleta: I suggest everyone read Tina Dupuy’s article in the Atlantic on her encounter with Senator Franken. He has a pattern of offensive behavior with women he casually encounters. On the spectrum of offensive behavior it is creepy, but not criminal, but intolerable for Democratic Senator.

  127. 127
    Elizabelle says:

    @gene108: What I notice with the Politico article: the latest accuser and her two colleagues who verify the story: not one of them is identified. Totally anonymous, even the colleagues. (Believe me, there is a lot of turnover on Capitol Hill. It’s not like our topic is “female Supreme Court justices”, and who might we be talking about?)

    If you are going to burn a man’s career, you can go on the record. I think that is why we are celebrating all the brave truth-tellers out there. Since she is a longtime Democratic congressional staffer, it’s entirely possible she is known to the Democratic senators, and considered a font of veracity. But the anonymity bothers me. A lot.

    Politico, more than halfway down the article:

    The former congressional aide, a longtime Democrat, said she is not attempting to force Franken out of office by coming forward now. Her aim is to encourage the former comedian to acknowledge that his behavior toward her and other women was intentional.

    “His resignation is not the top of the list there. That’s not my point. It’s not up to me what he does,” the former staffer said.

    Um, could you not achieve the same effect through a personal conversation with the Senator? Or his top aides? I kind of think they would listen to you.

    I am not a Franken deadender. However, there is something off about the piling on.

  128. 128

    @Anne Laurie:
    It is probably credited to him as the head of his studio, who conceived and laid out the painting and directed the work done on the less important bits by apprentices and underlings.

  129. 129
    Shalimar says:

    @gene108: “It’s my right as an entertainer” does sound horrible. It also sounds like something no one would be stupid enough to say, even jokingly.

  130. 130
    different-church-lady says:

    Well, this is refreshing: it used to be every thread turned into an argument about Bernie. This thread was actually about Bernie and it turned into an argument about Franken.

  131. 131
    satby says:

    @Elizabelle: well said in your first comment and quoted here. I’m so disgusted by the mob mentality demanding Franken’s resignation I had to check out of the blog yesterday. And I write him asking him not to resign. I hope he doesn’t.

  132. 132
    satby says:

    @gene108: and that story just smells like total bullshit.

  133. 133
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @different-church-lady: progress!

  134. 134
    Woodrowfan says:

    @lahke: um, those are determined by YOUR individual browsing habits. :)

  135. 135
    satby says:

    @Aleta: leaving now confirms the rumors, it doesn’t dispelled them. An investigation is needed because to this woman, who has been sexually assaulted in the way that would send the perp to prison, doesn’t think these accusations are creditable.

  136. 136
    Woodrowfan says:

    Franken was the most effective Senator in fighting the FCC’s attempt to strangle the internet. All of the sudden out come the accusers. huh.

  137. 137
    Kay says:


    I wonder if they’re planning something if/when Moore is elected. Some ethics process leading to expulsion or something and this is partly prep for that. None of them want Moore. Obviously Republicans will take him for the vote on the rich people tax cuts and cutting Medicare but it’s Alabama- they could easily get WILL get- a Republican who isn’t a child molester nut job who makes their lives harder. Democrats have a D governor in Minnesota so they get a D replacement too.

    It’d be great if Jones pulls off an upset and throws the whole thing into chaos :)

  138. 138
    Betty Cracker says:

    @satby: I’m torn on the Franken issue, but my disgust with the discussion here and elsewhere went in the opposite direction yours did. I’ve seen a whole lot of unfounded assumptions about good Democratic senators and more than a little misogyny.

  139. 139
    different-church-lady says:

    @Kay: None of them wanted Trump, but they’re not going to do a damn thing about him either.

  140. 140
    Kay says:


    And Sessions. He was cornering Sessions. The timing does bother me. A lot. The involvement of Stone bothers me too.

    OTOH the response from Democrats doesn’t feel panicked or defensive to me- it often DOES, so I see why we all turn to that, but this seems coordinated and planned. They think getting rid of him is better than not getting rid of him so I’m hoping they know what they’re doing. Schumer is horrible in a lot of ways but he’s not dumb and he’s not knee jerk reactive to events.

  141. 141
    bemused says:

    @Mary G:

    Me too. Thanks for linking to Dahlia Lithwick, Republicans built uneven playing field earlier. She’s always thoughtful and insightful. Smart, smart woman.

    I love her comments on Senate institutional rules and norms devolving into empty shells and Dems only ones playing the alternative game of righteous ball an unilateral disarmament is tantamount to arming the other side.

  142. 142
    Kay says:


    I know and they’;re horrible cowards but they could quietly get out of the way of some effort to expel or never seat him – and again- they’re cowards- that’s how they WOULD do it.

  143. 143
    tobie says:

    @Bobby Thomson: It strikes me as significant that Sander’s minions on DailyKos have been the loudest in calling for Franken’s head and that Sanders himself has not been included in the discussion of sexism and power given his deeply sexist writings in the Vermont Freeman in the 1970s. Gillibrand has for some time tried to shore up support from the Sanders wing of the party. (I wrote yesterday that I called her office during the healthcare debate to ask if the Senator considered endorsing an employer-based form of universal health coverage like they have in Germany and Switzerland and her aide told me the Senator had never heard of this model.) The talking heads on TV seem to be of the impression that this is the majority of the party. As a voter and lifelong Dem I’ve never felt more ignored.

  144. 144
    tobie says:


    leaving now confirms the rumors, it doesn’t dispelled them.

    So true. It means there will be no investigation.

  145. 145
    Elizabelle says:

    Do we know what time the Franken press conference will be?

    Further, I would bet he is hearing from his voters in Minnesota NOT to resign. Let this play out.

    Alabama can do whatever they do down there.

  146. 146
    Kay says:

    Part of my concern on Franken is it’s sort of bullshit that (white) women “rise up” and become some cohesive political force in response to these events. I have been hearing this for 20 years and I have yet to see it. White women simply aren’t an identifiable, politically powerful interest group. They don’t vote in a bloc and they don’t seem to vote in numbers on “women’s issues” at all. There won’t be an appreciable drop-off of white women voters for Republicans in ’18 based on their opposition to sexual harassment. They happily supported Trump just like they would have happily supported Bush or Rubio. They’re not a political force. Anita Hill was supposed to inspire this intense backlash that moved the ball politically because white women were “fed up!” and nothing really happened.

    I am a white woman and I have yet to see them show any kind of real solidarity that matters in elections. At this point I’m amazed they got the vote at all- they probably got it because they couldn’t vote against it. Suffragettes may have been a one-off.

  147. 147
    JR says:

    @BlueDWarrior: Robespierre will lead us to freedom!!

  148. 148
    Kay says:

    BREAKING: Trump administration has filed brief opposing public sector unions in major Supreme Court case, taking opposite position to Obama administration in previous case on same issue

    I’ve worked successfully and locally with Republicans twice- once with GOP parents on a school levy and once with police on a pro-union referendum. Police officers are on the whole right wingers but boy, do they care about wages and health insurance and hours rules. They are very passionate about pay.

    Trump is set to screw his police buddies and they richly deserve it. Law ‘n order! They’ll all be making 15 dollars an hour. Good job, fellas.

  149. 149
    Denali says:


    Surely Trump’s behavior towards women is intolerable for a President. Where are his party’s demands for his resignation? Why do only Democrats have to resign? When the narrative has shifted towards Franken’s level of behavior, it is clear that the fix is in.

  150. 150
    bemused says:

    What happened to due process? I wanted an investigation because I wanted more information on the accusations which, imo, do not rise to the level of banishing Franken to sexual predator island. So the rumors will stand if he resigns.
    I also want to know the real reasons the Senate Dem women ganged up together yesterday. Hysteria, political calculation of some sort that isn’t clear, they know something they aren’t telling us, what? I could barely listen to their explanations on msnbc last night. One saying, oh no, it wasn’t a coordinated effort, you betcha.
    I’m fed up with Dems walking around with Just Kick Me signs on their backs. That’s what it looks like to me until they have better explanations.

  151. 151
    Kay says:

    For example, you’ve all seen the grass roots movement to support Ivanka Trump’s tax break for upper middle class child care, right?

    Oh, you haven’t? That’s because there is no grass roots movement led by middle and upper class white women on child care tax breaks. Child care tax break, no child care tax break, they could give a shit and they don’t vote on it.

  152. 152
    debit says:

    @Sherparick: He touched her waist. Jesus fucking christ. Should he have put a condom on his hand first?

  153. 153
    Kay says:


    I don’t understand this “due process” argument. Franken has the senate process available. He forfeits it if he resigns. There’s no guarantee of encouragement in due process. It’s there. He picks it up or not.

  154. 154
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: Yeah, I wouldn’t bet on white women “rising up” either, but I don’t dismiss the possibility altogether. From what I’ve seen in county-level local politics, college-educated white women (usually middle-aged and suburban) make up a large share of the influx of newly activists Democrats since the election. The majority of college-educated white women voted for Clinton over Trump, which I believe was a first for that group. They won’t make up a bloc, but if enough of them flip, it could have enormous consequences in tight races.

  155. 155
    bemused says:


    That’s just it. He is getting shoved out. If he doesn’t resign, he’s not in friendly territory for either an investigation or doing his job as senator. He’s screwed either way.

  156. 156
    B.B.A. says:

    @Kay: There are enough votes to expel him from the Senate with no investigation. He’s done.

  157. 157
    James E. Powell says:


    What “bigger fight” are the Democrats ever going to wage, let alone win, if they never control all three branches of the federal government for at least three straight presidential terms?

  158. 158
    Ramalama says:

    Have you guys listened to the interview by Terry Gross with Jane Mayer and Rebecca Traister? Anita Hill is the topic that kicks things off, but later in the interview, they talk about ‘category confusion’ and how the degrees of bad behavior by men towards women varies greatly and shouldn’t all carry the same penalties. It’s a terrific listen.

  159. 159
    different-church-lady says:

    @B.B.A.: Yeah, you know, I want to see them vote to expel Franken and then leave Moore in place.

    I want to see that.

  160. 160
    Elizabelle says:

    @Ramalama: Thank you. That looks great. Conversation with 3 intelligent, accomplished women, and no guy talking over them.

  161. 161
    bemused says:


    That’s what I fear is happening, that the sensible varied degrees of men’s bad behavior towards women shouldn’t carry the same penalties is getting gutted by panic rush to zero tolerance.

  162. 162

    But the other basket — and I know this because I see friends from all over America here — I see friends from Florida and Georgia and South Carolina and Texas — as well as, you know, New York and California — but that other basket of people are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. – Hillary Clinton

  163. 163
    different-church-lady says:

    @Raven Onthill: When Bernie says it, it’s strong strategic visionary sense.

    When Hillary says it, it’s the most heinous insult ever levied against “ordinary voters” and proves she’s the worst campaigner who ever campaigned.

  164. 164
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Raven Onthill:
    Yes didn’t Clinton say that the single biggest mistake of her campaign was not reaching out to the economically anxious in the right way?

    ETA: I think this is the quote I saw from her book: But, in the end, she was “unable to connect with the deep anger so many Americans felt or shake the perception that I was the candidate of the status quo. And look what they’d thrown at me.”

  165. 165
    Vlad says:

    This is a garbage take, Anne… not that I’d expect anything else with your anti-Sanders bias.

    Nothing that Sanders is saying here is any different than what George McGovern was saying about Wallace voters in the early ’70s, and he’s doing it for the same reason that McGovern did it: some of these people will flip teams if you can convince them that you’re on their side and acting in their best interest. Yes, it sucks to have to sink time and effort into the bloc of voters who plunged us into this mess in the first place, but politics isn’t all sunshine and roses, and inroads among rural and rust-belt areas are important if the Dems want to hold the House after the wave in 2018.

  166. 166
    different-church-lady says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: Yes. And the reason she didn’t was because the “right way” circa 2016 was to hold minorities responsible for it.

  167. 167
    different-church-lady says:

    @Vlad: And look how well it worked out for President McGovern

  168. 168
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Some of the Nazis and Klansman in Charlottesville were very fine people. ~ Bernie

  169. 169
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    The Bernie robots said the same thing during the recent Virginia election. They said, forget the suburbs and exburbs, they’ll never vote for you; concentrate on the low information whites, especially in rural area.

    Of course the landslide results proved them right.

  170. 170
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    Instead of pining away for low information whites, why not try to create a wave of black and latino voters like the skinny black guy with the funny mooslim name did.

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