Franken Sense (Open Thread)

So, Senator Al Franken is scheduled to make a statement on the floor of the US Senate at 11:45 ET (C-SPAN link). He’ll probably resign. And because he’s basically a good guy and a strong Democrat, he’ll likely do so in a way that reaffirms the party’s commitment to equality for women and underscores the Republicans’ hypocrisy on the issue.

If he resigns, I’ll be sorry to see Al go. I’ve always liked him — he’s funny, smart, almost always right on the issues and can draw a map of the United States freehand. I have two or three of his books on my shelves. My favorite Franken quote comes from Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them. It’s about the difference in how liberals and conservatives love America:

“We love America just as much as they do. But in a different way. You see, they love America like a 4-year-old loves his mommy. Liberals love America like grown-ups. To a 4-year-old, everything Mommy does is wonderful and anyone who criticizes Mommy is bad. Grown-up love means actually understanding what you love, taking the good with the bad and helping your loved one grow.”

That’s true about patriotism, and it’s also true to some extent about political parties, which is why Republicans are fine with electing a man who has been credibly accused of child molestation and attempted rape (and that smirking creep from Texas who used taxpayer funds to pay off accusers) and Democrats are cleaning house — over-zealously, according to many.

Personally, I’m conflicted about Franken’s case for a whole bunch of reasons that I’ve expressed in other threads and therefore won’t bother rehashing in this post. But I do have a request, which, to paraphrase Ulysses McGill, is probably the “acme of foolishness” to make on this blog: Can we elevate the discussion a tad and try to keep it free of bad faith assumptions about fellow Democrats?

Can we entertain the possibility that people might have reasons other than rank stupidity or opportunism to believe Franken should resign? Can we stipulate that those who believe Franken should remain in the senate care deeply about addressing sexual harassment? At least until they say something that indicates otherwise? Because this issue is important. I’m willing to try if you are. Anyhoo, have at it.

602 replies
  1. 1
    Just the Facts says:

    Hear, hear.

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  2. 2
    Arclite says:

    I think Al should resign just as soon as President Trump and SCOTUS judge Clarence Thomas do.

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  4. 4
    Psych1 says:

    Can we entertain the possibility that people might have reasons other than rank stupidity or opportunism to believe Franken should resign?

    OK I tried to do it but it didn’t work.

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  5. 5
    Corner Stone says:

    Finally! The thread I have been waiting for. Now I can get some cereal and have a nice relaxing breakfast.

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  6. 6
    MJS says:

    Can we? Absolutely. Will we? Doubtful.

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    Corner Stone says:

    Just like you can’t be a good Christian if you didn’t vote for GWB, you can’t be a good Democrat if you don’t want Franken to resign.

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  8. 8
    CindyH says:

    @Arclite: I don’t think he should resign until after an ethics investigation – the public discussion of this issue needs to happen and it needs to cover the most minor offenses to the most egregious. If he resigns before an ethics investigation, it won’t happen and we’ll stay where we are with kangaroo courts on the internet.

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  9. 9
    Immanentize says:

    I was thinking about this question — one of the things that Schumer said was that he thought Franken was doing his constituents a disservice by staying in the Senate. What if Franken resigned, triggering a new election in November 2018, and ran again for the position. Would that be politically horrible? Or would it allow the constituents (like with Moore) the opportunity for a fresh say with a full vetting of all the charges?

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  10. 10
    Ohio Mom says:

    Well, if he is making a statement, he must be resigning because you don’t make a statement to reiterate that you are waiting for an ethics investigation.

    Sigh. I’ll miss him. Though the reason I’ll miss him is I trust his judgement as a Senator, so I have to trust he’s taking the right action now.

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  11. 11
    Elizabelle says:

    Cruise the Fuck the Fucking NY Times comments, Gillibrand’s home newspaper. They’re running like 10:1 that Franken should stay. She is way out ahead of her constituents.

    I am ashamed of Democrats for throwing a good senator under the bus without an ethics investigation. The accusers and accusations are sketchy, and not worthy of capital punishment, as is being doled out.

    Disgusted with Democrats, and the women senators leading the charge. Mostly, this has taught me that, while Republicans will protect their own, no matter how awful, Democrats will cut and run and head for the insufficient oxygen of the “higher road.”

    Voters want a party that will fight for them. This is not it.

    Is that a terrible comment? Maybe so. But this bothers me more than anything that has happened in months. And we have seen some shit.

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  12. 12
    Anotherlurker says:

    @Immanentize: This makes sense.

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    The Moar You Know says:

    Can we elevate the discussion a tad and try to keep it free of bad faith assumptions about fellow Democrats?

    The problem is, WRT Franken, there are a slew of fellow Democrats who are, in fact, acting in bad faith. And quite a few posters here.

    For me to ignore that is not possible. We may be losing one of the better Senators we’ve elected in my lifetime without even giving him the benefit of a hearing. That is wrong.

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  14. 14
    Corner Stone says:

    And as I quoted in a previous thread, why isn’t she saying this exact same thing about Trump?

    Sen. Lisa Murkowski‏Verified account @lisamurkowski

    We’re seeing a culture of harassment & assault being exposed on a daily basis. Whether you are in the media, politics, or anywhere else abuse of power is unacceptable & shouldn’t be tolerated at any place at any level. Sen. Franken must know that & that’s why he must step down.

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  15. 15

    Thank you, Betty Cracker, for your kind words about my senator and for your thoughtful introduction to this topic.

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    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Here’s what he should say

    I may have touched someone’s butt or waist while posing for pictures. Big fucking deal. Rape and harassment is really really really bad yo, but this shit is getting out of hand . I welcome an investigation

    Meanwhile the idiots in Alabama are about to elect a guy who felt up and assaulted teenage girls while he was a district attorney. Let’s imvestigate him while I’m being investigated

    You dumbasses need to get a grip.

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  17. 17
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Can we elevate the discussion a tad and try to keep it free of bad faith assumptions about fellow Democrats?

    Ha!

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    Corner Stone says:

    @Immanentize: One issue with that scenario is that the MN Gov will almost certainly nominate a woman for the position. So if he is primarying a sitting woman Sen, how do you think that will go for him?

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    Archon says:

    If Democrats genuinely think Franken should step down because it’s the right thing to do then so be it. If they think doing the right thing will benefit Democrats politically then they are bigger fools then I thought.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @The Moar You Know: I agree. I think it’s rush to judgment and bad faith.

    This one breaks my heart.

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    debit says:

    @The Moar You Know: Yes, this. I’m his constituent and I want him to stay and have the ethics investigation proceed.

    Also, too, I’ll try to be civil, but if that asshole Trentrunner shows up and runs his mouth all bets are off.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: Associate myself 100% with your comment. Dumbasses is the word. Cowards is another.

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    Cheryl Rofer says:

    Here’s CNN’s report on how the Senate Democrats turned yesterday.

    Women Democratic senators had been talking behind the scenes for at least the past week about how to deal with Franken, multiple aides told CNN. But those talks reached a tipping point Wednesday morning, they said, when Politico published a report at 9 a.m. ET of another woman alleging that Franken touched her inappropriately in 2006, before he was elected to office.

    The story prompted a flurry of calls and texts between Senate offices within minutes, and it was decided sometime between then and about 10:30 a.m. ET that the women senators would go public in a show of unity with their desire for Franken to step aside.

    “Their patience had worn incredibly thin,” said an aide to one of the women senators.

    Soon after that, Franken was given a heads up about what was coming, according to an aide to one of the women senators.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @debit: If so, he will be pied so fast his meringue will not have time to set.

    What are you hearing from your fellow Minnesotans?

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    Corner Stone says:

    “It’s my right as an entertainer.”
    That right there defines the absurdity of this whole thing. Does anyone think Franken would say that, basically ever?

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    MomSense says:

    @Elizabelle:

    It’s like we learned nothing from what happened to Shirley Sherrod, Acorn, Hillary Clinton. Did you see what Tom Arnold tweeted yesterday?

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    Brachiator says:

    He’ll probably resign. And because he’s basically a good guy and a strong Democrat, he’ll likely do so in a way that reaffirms the party’s commitment to equality for women and underscores the Republicans’ hypocrisy on the issue.

    Good intentions don’t matter much if you surrender the power to actually do good.

    It does appear that the Democratic women senators are united in their belief that Franken should go. And, from a current news story:

    CNN has put the total number of Senate Democrats who have called for Franken to resign at 32.

    Obviously the pressure is mounting.

    Can we stipulate that those who believe Franken should remain in the senate care deeply about addressing sexual harassment?

    Actually, I can’t. I don’t. Unless there is something more to be revealed, I don’t see any sense of proportionality here. The suggested punishment does not seem to fit the alleged offenses.

    And unfortunately, politics is a ruthless business, and the Republicans are not giving any quarter. The Democrats don’t seem to understand this at all.

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    Corner Stone says:

    “Own the moral high ground”

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    @Immanentize: theoretically, this idea has merit. But I don’t think he can overcome current opinion in Minnesota. People here took a very dim view of the picture of him pretending to grope Tweeden while she slept, before any other accusations had been made. Sadly, I think his career in electoral politics is over. But he can still make a difference as a public speaker, fundraiser, and advocate.

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    bemused says:

    If he resigns, it’s likely he will be tearful. He tends to cry easily. Heck, even if he doesn’t resign, he’ll probably be in tears.

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    geg6 says:

    @CindyH:

    This.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: I believe the “final” accuser is Tina Dupuy in The Atlantic. I’ve read about half of the article, and so far there is no there there. It’s two squeezes on the waist during a photo.

    Big whoop. She spends most of her article setting up her creds as a Democrat.

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    Immanentize says:

    @Corner Stone: I do see that, but I believe he is capable of threading that needle through smarts, humility and his amazing work ethic. But would his opponent? Unclear. The Minn. Democratic party would have something to say about it of course.

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    Bruce K says:

    I was skeptical about the first accusation, because I thought I smelled something of the stink of Project Veritas about it, but the numerous subsequent accusations … this is about the point where, wearing my lawyer hat, I’d suggest taking whatever deal the prosecution was offering.

    And who knows? Maybe he can step away in a manner that’ll do a bit of good.

    (Part of me wonders what the reaction would be if he announced that he would resign immediately after Doug Jones is sworn in as the junior Senator from Alabama.)

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    geg6 says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Couldn’t agree more.

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    debit says:

    @Elizabelle: The same: let the investigation happen. But he’s been thrown under the “we must be better than this” bus so I guess it’s pointless.

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    bemused says:

    @Knight of Nothing:

    And a lot of people here in MN don’t view the pic the same way you do.

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  38. 38
    Cephalus Max says:

    I’m not sure about “elevating” the discussion, but other than that, well said, Betty.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @MomSense: Vague idea. Kind of late, Tom.

    But the train had already left the station, on the wrong tracks.

    Roger Stone et al played the Democrats, masterfully. Because some “leaders” still have not figured out the game.

    Do you think Obama is sitting around wishing he’d taken the high road more with the Republicans? Especially over Merrick Garland? I kind of think he is not.

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    Corner Stone says:

    @Knight of Nothing: From the start I have been mystified by why people thought the picture was some kind of horrible incident?

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    @bemused: the last poll showed he had only 22% support.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @Knight of Nothing: What poll, and by whom?

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  43. 43
    Corner Stone says:

    @Elizabelle: When they go low, we go high.

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    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    @Corner Stone: You should’ve read some of the comments over at LGM about that pic when if first came out. I mean wow.

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    HeleninEire says:

    Does someone have a live link? Betty’s link goes to CSPAN, but not to Frankin and I can’t find a Frankin link there

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    rikyrah says:

    Paul Ryan eyes Medicare cuts, and he thinks Trump may help
    12/07/17 11:06 AM—UPDATED 12/07/17 11:11 AM
    By Steve Benen

    …………………………………………………………..

    House Speaker Paul D. Ryan (R-Wis.) said Wednesday that congressional Republicans will aim next year to reduce spending on both federal health care and anti-poverty programs, citing the need to reduce America’s deficit.

    “We’re going to have to get back next year at entitlement reform, which is how you tackle the debt and the deficit,” Ryan said during an appearance on Ross Kaminsky’s talk radio show. “… Frankly, it’s the health care entitlements that are the big drivers of our debt, so we spend more time on the health care entitlements – because that’s really where the problem lies, fiscally speaking.”

    Ryan said that he believes he has begun convincing President Trump in their private conversations about the need to rein in Medicare, the federal health program that primarily insures the elderly.

    There’s a lot to this, but let’s focus on just two angles. The first is recognizing the audacity of Paul Ryan’s shameless scam.

    The House Speaker apparently expects Americans to believe it’s important to “tackle the debt and the deficit,” despite the fact that Ryan voted for both of George W. Bush’s tax cuts, both of George W. Bush’s wars in the Middle East, Medicare Part D, and the Wall Street bailout – none of which Republicans even tried to pay for.

    More to the point, if the Wisconsin congressman had even the slightest interest in balancing the budget, he wouldn’t be championing a tax plan that adds $1 trillion to the deficit over the next decade. It’s a bit like listening to an arsonist demand money to rebuild the home he just burned to the ground: the person responsible for creating the problem shouldn’t whine about how eager he is to get others to fix the problem.

    But the other part of this is Trump’s intentions. It’s quite likely that he’s president today because he promised the nation that, his party’s orthodoxy notwithstanding, he wouldn’t cut the core pillars of the social-insurance state.

    Trump has already expressed a willingness to ignore part of that commitment, embracing the Republican Party’s health care plan, which included brutal Medicaid cuts. The president’s budget also included cuts to Social Security, though they targeted disability insurance, not retirees’ benefits. (Trump’s far-right budget director, Mick Mulvaney, told an incredible story in September in which he bragged about tricking the president into ignoring his campaign promise.)

    And now Paul Ryan wants Trump to agree to Medicare cuts, and the Speaker believes he’s “begun convincing” the president to go along with the plan. Given Trump’s willingness to ignore so many of his other commitments, and the ease with which the president takes aim at the interests of those he vowed to protect, it’s likely Ryan is correct about the efficacy of his pitch.

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    Gelfling 545 says:

    @CindyH I agree. The ethics investigation would do more to advance systemic change regarding harassment than the summary “off with his head” approach. And if an sob IS guilty of such behavior, let him sit there in committee and be shamed in front of god and everybody.

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  48. 48
    Yarrow says:

    MSNBC fell for Cernovich’s attempted ratfucking of Sam Seder and fired him. Now they have reversed their decision.

    MSNBC Reverses Decision To Fire Contributor Sam Seder https://t.co/4gISBL8bUp— andrew kaczynski🤔 (@KFILE) December 7, 2017

    It would be nice if our elected Dems could at least acknowledge there’s a possibility Franken is being ratfucked by the same kinds of people.

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    different-church-lady says:

    Surely this will address the anxiety felt by the white working class.

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    Immanentize says:

    @Knight of Nothing: That is a bullshit reading of the poll:

    …22 percent say he should stay in office, while one third of Minnesotans polled believe he should resign. Another 26 percent want to wait and see what the Senate Ethics Committee concludes in its investigation of the matter.

    Or, to put it another way, 48% believe he should stay in office until the ethics review is complete while only 33% want him to resign. Big undecided there…

    As my Dad used to say, Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.

    ETA Linky

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  52. 52
    ruemara says:

    Bear with me. I think the initial accusation was ridiculous. I find the fact that there’s now several to be concerning. I find Tina Dupuy to be a horrible drama queen tacking on for her own ego. I’d prefer an investigation, if only because Tom Arnold was on twitter saying he knew Tweeden and also knew she has been coached to make accusation by Stone. It enrages me that sexual assault & harassment are being weaponized by the party that would make it legal. That bothers me more than Franken. I think the investigative process should be much, much faster on these. In all the industry gossip, I’ve never heard a bad word about Franken. Everyone who’s been as big, you hear stuff. He’s never had that reputation. Dupuy and he were professional buddies so her article is insane to me. It’s a loss that someone who worked so hard to shift over into a new career that he excelled in, has been run right out. But, that’s politics. You don’t give anyone the gun to aim at you. He’s a better soldier than most and I expect this to be a fall on your sword resignation. I think he should clear his name, but that’s up to him.
    History marches on. Having faves and heroes is a fools game. They’re people. They will disappoint you at some point. You either deal with it or fall apart. I hate to be that cold on it, but I am not here to die on the hill of Al Franken. He has money, fame and to quote Rod Morrow, “No one is ever really canceled”. He’ll be back on the world’s stage in a year or so, scarred but not gone. The real work is done on the ground by regular folks. So you don’t need Franken. You just need to ensure people understand their government is there responsibility. And leave the superhero fanboyism once you get past puberty.

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  53. 53
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @Elizabelle: Was that the “handful of flesh” story? That one seems to purposefully confuse grabbing the butt and grabbing around the waist awkwardly. I am not a woman; I’d like to think I take women’s concerns seriously. That said, calling someone squeezing A WAIST inappropriate is over-the-moon loony.

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  54. 54
    Corner Stone says:

    What happens to the people who work in Franken’s office? Do they catch on elsewhere? Just go back home?

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  55. 55

    @Corner Stone: We have a hard time getting conservatives to understand what “consent” means. A sleeping person cannot consent to being the object of a joke. To me, it just shows an incredible lack of respect — he’s not a teenager or a college frat boy. At the time of the picture, he was a married, middle-aged man who had decided to run for the senate. This was not a part of the show; it was a hazing of sorts.

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  56. 56
    MJS says:

    @Immanentize: Actually, I thought it was 36 percent wanted him to wait for the investigation, making it 58% who want him to stay. Maybe I read it wrong.

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  57. 57
    GregB says:

    Trump, Roy Moore and Blake Farenthold give Franken a standing ovation.

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  58. 58
    JR says:

    @Gelfling 545: I’m strongly in favor of the ethics investigation as well.

    BUT, it goes without saying that this option has been discussed by elected democrats and they found it wanting. Perhaps they anticipate (or are aware of) worse accusations coming down the pike. Maybe they think the ethics investigation will be a morass that will cause more harm than good (politically, of course) and that Franken is not the hill they want to die on.

    Maybe their calculation is more cynical — a Franken resignation comes with less pain given that he represents Minnesota, and forcing him out puts the heat back on the GOP for Moore et al.

    I have no idea.

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  59. 59
    Bill says:

    Last time I waded in to this debate here I regretted it, but Franken is doing the right thing. There are other smart, strong progressives in Minnesota who can serve.

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    geg6 says:

    @Immanentize:

    I seem to remember someone prominent who had a book…something about lying liars and the lies they tell. Something like that.

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    JR says:

    @ruemara:

    It enrages me that sexual assault & harassment are being weaponized by the party that would make it legal.

    QFT

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  63. 63
    Immanentize says:

    <a href="“>Linky for poll

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    Elizabelle says:

    Just left a message at Gillibrand’s office about how disgusted I am with the rush to judgment, and that she’s out ahead of her constituents. Like they will care about someone calling from Germany with a California area code. Point is, though, it’s an expensive call and I was bothered enough to make it.

    Buffalo. 716 854 9725

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  65. 65
    Raoul says:

    His announcement speech is good. Sad and frustrating, but good.

    I hope he is serious about staying in the public eye. He could run and fundraise for an ass-kicking progressive think tank. Or chair the board of Planned Parenthood of MN+ND+SD, or things like that.

    Go get ’em, Al.

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  66. 66
    patroclus says:

    This is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever seen in politics. Of course he shouldn’t resign. In a democratic republic, voters decide things; not lynch mobs. He should face the voters of Minnesota – other Senators, absent expulsion events, should not decide who serves there. The Democrats are idiotically throwing a good Senator away and risking losing the seat in 2018.

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    different-church-lady says:

    @Corner Stone: They commit ritual seppuku due to the deep shame they feel over his actions. Their assets are forfeited to Roy Moore’s campaign.

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  68. 68

    @Immanentize: I read the poll wrong, my apologies.

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    Elizabelle says:

    @JR: Which all comes down to: Democratic office holders: you are expendable. Do not count on us to cover your back.

    Great message for candidate recruitment.

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    hellslittlestangel says:

    All things considered, it’s a sad day. I thought he would have made a great 2020 VP candidate.

    On to December 12th, a day which will gladden our hearts. Or live in infamy. Who the fuck knows?

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  71. 71
    Emma says:

    As I said in the Sally Ride thread, we should in the final stretch vote for the democrstic presidential candidate. But those of us who are sick and tired of our cowardly/opportunistic/supermoral upper tier should simply concentrate on local candidates and races. Take back the states beginning at the local level.

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    John says:

    The Leeann Tweeden accusation is pure bullshit. The photo she presented as evidence of groping does not actually show him groping her and is at best evidence of immaturity. Most of the other accusations are from anonymous accusers and were introduced by conservative news outlets. The rest are suspicious as hell. Why does anyone buy the story of this woman from Texas that Franken groped her at the state fair? The latest accusation that supposedly spurred the female Senators to action is ridiculous. He put his hand on the waist of the anonymous accuser while they were taking a photo. M’okay…
    This whole thing stinks of a ratfucking operation and given Tom Arnold’s tweet yesterday about Roger Stone coaching Leeann Tweeden prior to her “revelation” I’d say the stink is coming from some real shitheels. Franken is enough of a realist that he understands that he’s compromised now, but his resignation will be a win for disingenuous scumbags.

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    The Moar You Know says:

    The pie filter list only displays 23 people that you are blocking. Mine’s at least double that, and almost all those names have been added in the last two days.

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  74. 74

    @ruemara: Its not about making Franken a superhero, IMHO this sets a bad precedent, when there are two sets of rules for two parties. This is a self inflicted wound.
    Franken goes if the molesters and worse in the other party go to.

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    Corner Stone says:

    Such a waste.

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    Immanentize says:

    @ruemara: As ever, a very persuasive and sensitive take on the issue. Thank you.

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    different-church-lady says:

    @hellslittlestangel:

    I thought he would have made a great 2020 VP candidate.

    Which may be what this is really all about.

    Oh well, at least he didn’t have to go through 30 years of it.

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    Elizabelle says:

    FTF NYTimes says Franken is out.

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    Betty Cracker says:

    Good speech, Senator Franken.

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    piratedan says:

    only a couple of issues with owning the moral high ground, the property values are notoriously fickle and my understanding is that they only have septic service there and hooking up to municipal services is a nightmare….

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    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: in the next few weeks. Not today.

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    HeleninEire says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Thank you

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    different-church-lady says:

    @Betty Cracker: Former Senator Franken.

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    geg6 says:

    Gotta love all this anti-democratic love here on my side. This is why we can’t have nice things. Kirsten Gillibrand decides he must go, so he must go. Fuck due process, fuck the voters of MN, Queen Kirsten has spoken!

    Fuck her. She used to be a Republican. Never trusted her and now I never will.

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    Sab says:

    @ruemara: Thanks you for this comment.

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    Villago Delenda Est says:

    Sorry, the people screaming for Franken to resign are giving Roger Stone precisely what he wants.

    Morons.

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    WarMunchkin says:

    @Raoul:

    Or chair the board of Planned Parenthood of MN+ND+SD, or things like that.

    What, why?

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    bemused says:

    @Knight of Nothing:

    Pfft.

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    Corner Stone says:

    @Raoul: It doesn’t matter anymore. He is done. He is guilty forever and ever. No one will want anything to do with him in public.

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    different-church-lady says:

    @piratedan: “Why, you can even get stucco. Oh, how you can get stuck-o!

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    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    I’m going to run my ass out on a limb and opine that one of our deep national problems is that our predominant white Christian culture is naively prudish on issues of sexual conduct, and this naïveté deprives people of the emotional and rhetorical tools they could use to effectively rebuff unwelcome advances while still allowing them the ability to pair (or group together – boom chicka bow wow) with people that they are attracted to, whether short or long term.

    We inundate people with sexual imagery, but then say “don’t do that”. We tell people that they can self-actualize their sexual desires, but then paternalistically say “not in the workplace” and “don’t be a slut”.

    The rot of Savonarola, Jean Calvin, Billy Sunday and the like has deep roots in this society. People should feel free to tell anyone, even a boss, to fuck the fuck off – I don’t want you.

    ReplyReply
  92. 92
    joel hanes says:

    @MomSense:

    Shirley Sherrod, Acorn, Hillary Clinton

    Jocelyn Elders

    ReplyReply
  93. 93
  94. 94
    TenguPhule says:

    This day will live in infamy.

    The Democratic party, the Democratic Women Senators of the Party, just blew up our own Pearl Harbor.

    Thanks for nothing, you power hungry morons.

    ReplyReply
  95. 95
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: Republicans protect their own. Democrats eat our own. It’s shameful and stupid and disgusting.

    ReplyReply
  96. 96
    SiubhanDuinne says:

    @Elizabelle:
    Today, December 7, is a day that will live in infamy.

    ReplyReply
  97. 97
    SenyorDave says:

    @ruemara: if only because Tom Arnold was on twitter saying he knew Tweeden and also knew she has been coached to make accusation by Stone.

    Tom Arnold, seriously?

    The same Tom Arnold who says he has outtakes from the Apprentice with Trump making racist remarks. I believe they might exist, but they’d be worth millions and Arnold would have been peddling them to the highest bidder 12 seconds after he uncovered them.

    ReplyReply
  98. 98

    Congratulations on the own goal, those of you who wanted Franken to resign.

    ReplyReply
  99. 99
    eric says:

    I believe in the Law of Unintended Consequences. I want to believe that a now-unshackled Al Franken will prove a powerful and humorous foil for Trump.

    ReplyReply
  100. 100
    Jack the Second says:

    I think his colleagues in the Senate kind of forced his hand; once half your coworkers say you should resign it kills your working relationship with them if nothing else. I’m kind of curious if they did it from insider knowledge or because of optics.

    I think that calls for investigation and accountability are the way this should be handled, not just blanket calls for resignation. I think Conyers resigned so quickly because he knew he was guilty, or guilty enough, that any prolonged spotlight would not have done him any good. Meanwhile, I think Franken thought he was innocent, or innocent enough, that any prolonged investigation would exonerate him. Now we’ll probably never know; I mean, if we follow the last page of the B section of the newspaper we might find some tidbit about whether anything came of the allegations, maybe, but we’ll never know if he would have been exonerated in public opinion, or if once a politician is stained with accusation it’s all over.

    ReplyReply
  101. 101
    TenguPhule says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Just like you can’t be a good Christian if you didn’t vote for GWB, you can’t be a good Democrat if you don’t want Franken to resign.

    And like good Germans, they will be shocked, shocked, that their actions led to so many bad things happening to other people.

    ReplyReply
  102. 102
    different-church-lady says:

    SURELY THE VOTERS WILL NOW REWARD US WITH ELECTORAL GAINS IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE!! CERTAINLY, IT IS A FACT OF THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!!!

    ReplyReply
  103. 103
    Schlemazel says:

    Nice work Dems! Once again you attack us and do the GOPs dirty work that they built on lies and slander. Once again you give the hammer to the people who only intend to do us all harm. Once again you walk – hell, ran – away from us to help the GOP. And what will this “victory” give us? A warm feeling? Yeah, the warm feeling like pissing in our pants. You have the moral high ground, all alone & losing all the important fight but fuck all that, you are pure

    ReplyReply
  104. 104
    Emma says:

    As far as I am concerned if it turns out that this is a republican ratfuck I expect each and everyone of those senators to apologize to Franken on bended knees. And I will vote for one of them for president if it is the last resort but I will not donate or volunteer.

    ReplyReply
  105. 105
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    Anthony Weiner – prison. Roy Moore – endorsed by POTUS, likely to go the the Senate.

    Gary Hart, John Edwards – done in. Newt Gingrich got to be Speaker, David Vitter a Senator.

    ReplyReply
  106. 106
    TenguPhule says:

    @eric:

    I believe in the Law of Unintended Consequences.

    I do too.

    And I believe its now OPEN SEASON on every Democrat in office. Everywhere.

    And Republicans have no bag limit.

    ReplyReply
  107. 107
    Elizabelle says:

    The NY Times reader comments, 85 now, and the ones I read are all against the resignation. Every last one. They know a dirty trick when they see one.

    Gillibrand and the ladies just shat their own damn bed. So disgusted.

    ReplyReply
  108. 108
    different-church-lady says:

    @eric: I would rather have a congressional foil for Trump.

    By the way, kiss that seat goodbye in special election.

    ReplyReply
  109. 109
    TenguPhule says:

    @Emma:

    As far as I am concerned if it turns out that this is a republican ratfuck I expect each and everyone of those senators to apologize to Franken on bended knees.

    We’ll be lucky if we get apologies on this blog.

    ReplyReply
  110. 110
    eric says:

    @TenguPhule: Alas, that is an intended consequence of the ratfuck.

    ReplyReply
  111. 111
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: It’s breaking my heart, too, Elizabelle. So much that has happened is happening because Republicans control everything and there isn’t much of anything we can do about it. But this ratfucking, we are aiding in their destruction. I am in tears over politics for the first time since I figured out a way to get out of bed and function with Trump as president. .This is heartbreaking.

    ReplyReply
  112. 112
    mai naem mobile says:

    This is really depressing. . Fuck the asshole amoral GOP and fuck the Dems for being the shittiest bunch of politicians who don’t know how to punch back. I can’t even handle watching MSNBC anymore.

    ReplyReply
  113. 113
    Raoul says:

    We have the situation we have. He has done what I think, very sadly, he felt he had to do, which is to remove himself from the screaming monkey cage.

    That said, we cannot just go forward as Dems and progressives with this ad hoc ‘process’. Why was 5 accusations OK to hold out to and ethics investigation, but 6 or 7 not? That’s totally arbitrary. It appears the ethics investigation hadn’t actually started. Why was that?

    If we are to have a cohesive policy and party, a defined process has to be established now. And Dems have to do their damndest to at least rhetorically hold the GOP to whatever standard is post haste produced.

    ReplyReply
  114. 114
    TenguPhule says:

    @different-church-lady:

    SURELY THE VOTERS WILL NOW REWARD US WITH ELECTORAL GAINS IN THE HOUSE AND SENATE!! CERTAINLY, IT IS A FACT OF THE MORAL HIGH GROUND!!!

    And if the Gods do not end the electoral drought, ANOTHER DEMOCRAT MUST HAVE THEIR HEART RIPPED FROM THEIR CHEST IN SACRIFICE TO APPEASE THEM.

    We are all Aztecs now.

    ReplyReply
  115. 115
    Brachiator says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes:

    I’m going to run my ass out on a limb and opine that one of our deep national problems is that our predominant white Christian culture is naively prudish on issues of sexual conduct, and this naïveté deprives people of the emotional and rhetorical tools they could use to effectively rebuff unwelcome advances while still allowing them the ability to pair (or group together – boom chicka bow wow) with people that they are attracted to, whether short or long term.

    It ain’t just white Christians. But I largely agree with you here.

    ReplyReply
  116. 116
    No Drought No More says:

    The single redeeming aspect of a Franken resignation will be to provide a study in contrasts between the two party’s. Given the GOP has written off America’s hispanic vote for a few generations as well, it’s not an inconsiderable calculation. The flip side of that coin is in stripping the voters of Minnesota of their franchise, which is the real cost of this publicly coerced demonstration of party rectitude.

    But I’d like to know something. Where were these outraged senators when Hillary, and Kerry, and Gephart, and Daschle all shredded the democratic party’s reputation with their support of Bush/Cheney’s successful plot to wage a ground war in the mideast? Why aren’t these same senators today training their outrage upon the REAL ENEMY, that is, the American fascists of the republican party?

    If those senators are serious people, they’ll quit jerking around trying to impress Americans as being the oh-so-stalwart defenders of democratic party in-house matters, and confront the mortal enemy of American democracy with a will to kill it. At this point in time, anything less than the total destruction of the GOP as a national power- i.e., events such as this “feel good” business of running Franken out of town- is a inconsequential side show, and all the more dangerous for being one.

    ReplyReply
  117. 117
    Peale says:

    @JR: Its the dumbest political calculation. Seriously. To increase Doug Jones chances in Alabama, you put a seat in Minnesota at risk? Because now instead of running an election in 2020 when Dems at least show up, you have to run an election in an off year? And seriously, whoever is senator from Alabama should not have any bearing on who is Senator in Minnesota. You are giving up something you have for something you do not have now and aren’t likely to have. And its a Senate seat. These aren’t cheap things and once you have them, you should act like they are important to you.

    ReplyReply
  118. 118
    WaterGirl says:

    @Corner Stone: When they go low, we shove our own out of a moving bus.

    ReplyReply
  119. 119

    I’m bitter about this. Take the high ground? Change the “conversation”? Let’s see if any of that happens. Will R’s reject Blake F or Roy Moore? What happens in a closely divided Senate?

    ReplyReply
  120. 120
    Amir Khalid says:

    Damn. It seems to me that Al Franken deserves better than resignation in ignominy.

    ReplyReply
  121. 121
    mai naem mobile says:

    Leanne Tweeden or whatever the fuck her name was is probably getting some extra poyout from the Mercers.

    ReplyReply
  122. 122
    Schlemazel says:

    @GregB:
    fuck you with a rust chainsaw asshole

    ReplyReply
  123. 123
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    I think as a show of good faith, Dayton should select Tim Pawlenty’s choice to s eve in Franken’s stead. Take the high road, y’know.

    ReplyReply
  124. 124
    eric says:

    @WaterGirl: under. repeatedly.

    ReplyReply
  125. 125
    TenguPhule says:

    @Elizabelle:

    Disgusted with Democrats, and the women senators leading the charge. Mostly, this has taught me that, while Republicans will protect their own, no matter how awful, Democrats will cut and run and head for the insufficient oxygen of the “higher road.”

    Voters want a party that will fight for them. This is not it.

    Yep. Our party has learned absolutely NOTHING from 2016.

    We’re gonna lose in 2018 to GOP ratfucking at this rate. And unless we start seeing Democrats with actual spines and some damn loyalty to each other in office, 2020 isn’t going to buck that trend.

    As it stands now, we are completely fucked.

    ReplyReply
  126. 126
    Davebo says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Lo Siento Mucho

    ReplyReply
  127. 127
    Schlemazel says:

    @Bill:
    Name one please

    ReplyReply
  128. 128
    cleek says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    The pie filter list only displays 23 people that you are blocking.

    i don’t think there’s any limit set in the filter itself. maybe your browser is refusing to show a message box with more than 23 lines?

    ReplyReply
  129. 129
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: OK, so the tipping point came from something that happened before he was elected Senator? Not since? Jesus Chicken-Fried Christ. I am throroughly disgusted by these women.

    ReplyReply
  130. 130
    Cacti says:

    Al Franken is gone with a whimper. Donald Trump is still POTUS, Clarence Thomas is still on SCOTUS, Joe Barton and Blake Farenthold are still Congressmen, Roy Moore will shortly be a Senator.

    And we wonder why we ALWAYS FUCKING LOSE.

    ReplyReply
  131. 131
    PJ says:

    @ruemara: We all need effective representation in Congress. Unfortunately, this is not what most of our representatives supply. Franken’s replacement is not going to be grilling Sessions on his lying to Congress, or advocating for net neutrality. She is going to be sitting back and dutifully voting the way she is told to vote for the next year. If you think all senators, or all Democratic senators are alike, I don’t know what to say to you.

    Furthermore, this is just the beginning. Roger Stone was successful with his first cut. Many more accusations will be made over the next year, and the Democrats have shown they will not defend themselves.

    ReplyReply
  132. 132
    AliceBlue says:

    Dammit, dammit, dammit.

    I hope all the ladies–his accusers and the women senators–are happy now. I especially hope that the snowflake who was so traumatized by an arm around her waist can find some peace.

    I haven’t felt like this since election night. Goddamit.

    ReplyReply
  133. 133
    Trollhattan says:

    Can’t help but feel we’re being played, only by skilled operatives instead of Roger Stone types. It seems Nixonesque.

    I will miss him.

    ReplyReply
  134. 134
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bill:

    Last time I waded in to this debate here I regretted it, but Franken is doing the right thing. There are other smart, strong progressives in Minnesota who can serve.

    The Admiral at the battle of Midway is relieved of duty and an ensign straight out of the academy is your solution to replace him. Kiss your Democratic Carriers and Net Neutrality goodbye.

    ReplyReply
  135. 135
    The Moar You Know says:

    Which all comes down to: Democratic office holders: you are expendable. Do not count on us to cover your back.

    Great message for candidate recruitment.

    @Elizabelle: Funny you should mention that. I’d been contemplating a local run, local state assembly Repub who never has a challenger. Shenanigans have ensued with the local party (we have at least two of our own local versions of Gillibrand here, one of which is almost certainly a Republican who is hiding it) so I was pretty sure I wasn’t going to do it, but watching Franken get hung out to dry has been the final clincher.

    You’d have to be an idiot to run for a Dem office this cycle. One word from some paid shill and your entire base is going to be trying to hang you from a lamp post. Maybe this will have calmed down by 2020, but I suspect when panic sets in after 2018, we’re going to circular firing squad all our good people.

    We can run Sanders/Sarandon 2020 and watch us get single digit returns. But they will be the purest results ever.

    ReplyReply
  136. 136
    Schlemazel says:

    @SenyorDave:
    Except he was saying this BEFORE the first charge was made. So, either he knew something was up or he is one hell of a guesser

    ReplyReply
  137. 137
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @AliceBlue:

    And let the backlash begin, please.

    ReplyReply
  138. 138

    @Miss Bianca: Some of our FPers have also been on Franken should resign bandwagon.

    ReplyReply
  139. 139
    different-church-lady says:

    Now we can finally get on with the critical business of making Bill Clinton retroactively resign.

    ReplyReply
  140. 140
    Cacti says:

    They go low, we shoot our own in the back.

    ReplyReply
  141. 141
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle: I just left a long message, saying exactly how I feel in no uncertain terms. Better she shows her lack of judgment and lack of spine now than if it had been closer to 2020. Ugh.

    ReplyReply
  142. 142
    TenguPhule says:

    @No Drought No More:

    The single redeeming aspect of a Franken resignation will be to provide a study in contrasts between the two party’s.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

    Oh wait, you’re serious.

    No, the media is now going to give us ALL OF THE BLAME AND NONE OF THE CREDIT.

    ReplyReply
  143. 143
    ruemara says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: Means a lot coming from you, thanks.

    @schrodingers_cat: For many, he is. That’s what having a fave is like. It’s why you can’t look at Bernie Sanders and say, “he’s got good big ideas, but he can’t policy his way out of a paper bag-he should work on that”. It’s not that Franken is a superhero, it’s that he’s a fave and this hurts. I have 3 Franken books in my library. He taught me a lot about what was wrong in the Reagan & Bush administrations, I grew up on his Air America show. This is a perfect media trap. Him staying is damaging. Him leaving is also damaging – but he can be replaced.

    People. There was no good way out of this. And him not resigning was not going to prevent this from happening again. This has worked against Dems for decades. Republicans literally have to be trafficking in pages and THEN get a jail term for paying bribe money. This is going to be a brutal game for years. The consequences of discussing any issue in the public sphere is that the same issue can be turned against you. Please not how much of the civil rights language that helped in the ’60’s is turned against Dems on issues like free speech for nazis, concealed carry, anti-abortion groups, and religious bigotry. Language is powerful and they’ve spent decades twisting words and corrupting minds. The point is, move on and build up a reserve of good candidates and make it clear to them that they’re having to do things the black way – twice as good for half the reward. The goal is the America that can be, and that has to be the reward.

    ReplyReply
  144. 144
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Knight of Nothing: Your last sentence is highly unlikely after the way he has been savaged by the Democrats.

    ReplyReply
  145. 145
    d58826 says:

    I’m conflicted also. The moral high ground is nice but it has 0 votes in the Senate (I know a D will fill the seat) and most voters donot seem to care about the moral high ground. If Moore wins on Tue. that will be the final proof
    of that

    ReplyReply
  146. 146
    The Moar You Know says:

    i don’t think there’s any limit set in the filter itself. maybe your browser is refusing to show a message box with more than 23 lines?

    @cleek: that’s actually what I was trying to say, very poorly. I know damn well there’s more than 23 nyms in it.

    ReplyReply
  147. 147
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: When the Civil Breakdown comes, Republicans will simply accuse half the Democrats of sexual misconduct and the other half will cheerfully shoot them in the back.

    ReplyReply
  148. 148
    Yoda Dog says:

    @ruemara: Thank you. Everybody needs to chill the fuck out a little bit, imho. We’re going to be alright, folks. For fuck sakes. Al Franken is one democratic vote soon to be replaced by another. He’s not going to matter next November. We are going to fucking roll them next year and then go from there. This changes next to nothing.

    ReplyReply
  149. 149
    debit says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Oh, I know! It should be Norm Coleman! He’s an ass grabber from way back, but it’s okay because he only does it when he’s drunk and only grabs Republican lady asses.

    ReplyReply
  150. 150
    Mnemosyne says:

    And just to add to what everyone else is saying:

    Because Trump and Moore deny they acted badly, and Franken accepted responsibility for becoming a distraction, the narrative is now, Democrats are perverts, while Republicans are fine, upstanding men who get viciously and unfairly attacked.

    We are so screwed now. Thanks, Democratic women!

    ReplyReply
  151. 151
    rikyrah says:

    Does Trump have ‘a full understanding’ of his new Israel policy?
    12/07/17 08:40 AM
    By Steve Benen

    When Donald Trump delivered remarks yesterday announcing his new U.S. policy in Israel, the president seemed eager to tell the world how impressed he is with himself. “While previous presidents have made this a major campaign promise,” he said, “they failed to deliver. Today, I am delivering.”

    Ordinarily, when a president announces a dramatic shift in foreign policy, he’ll explain why the change advances U.S. interests. Yesterday, however, Trump didn’t bother. Indeed, a Washington Post report suggested he may not fully understand what he just did.

    Several advisers said he did not seem to have a full understanding of the issue and instead appeared to be focused on “seeming pro-Israel,” in the words of one, and “making a deal,” in the words of another. […]

    The debate came to a head at a White House meeting Nov. 27 to hash out the waiver issue. According to people briefed on the meeting, Trump repeated his earlier assertions that he had to follow through on his campaign pledge, seemingly irritated by objections over security and the break with previous policy.

    “The decision wasn’t driven by the peace process,” one senior official said. “The decision was driven by his campaign promise.”

    ReplyReply
  152. 152
    joel hanes says:

    @No Drought No More:

    support of Bush/Cheney’s successful plot to wage a ground war in the mideast?

    Either you are quite young, or this is disingenuous.

    Hindsight is 20/20, but foresight is always murky.
    The AUMF vote was never presented as if it would give the Bushies carte blanche to initiate an open-ended war of aggression, nor as a warrant to seize Iraq’s oil resources, and it was not yet clear at that time that the entire W administration was lying or deluded about WMDs.

    Josh Marshall, for one, was on the ‘yes’ side, as were many centrists.

    So those voting yes were mistaken, but not necessarily evil. W cheated them, and you’re blaming the victims.

    ReplyReply
  153. 153
    WaterGirl says:

    @geg6: Call the number that Elizabelle listed above. I called and left a message.

    ReplyReply
  154. 154
    Trollhattan says:

    @different-church-lady:
    Sardonic laughter for this.

    ReplyReply
  155. 155
    NobodySpecial says:

    I’m not going to impugn anyone here, or even Al Franken. This is just another of those moments that crystallizes that the world is changing. What was acceptable in a world dominated by male voters isn’t going to fly in a world where more women vote than men, Republicans won’t try their people as hard as Democrats will – but they never do, so no sense in trying to compare apples to oranges. Best just to remember that our base doesn’t like mistreatment much – and Democrats have been the party for women since at least the time of Bill Clinton, despite white women continuing to split about 50-50.

    He was a good Senator and a reliable Democratic vote, his replacement will more than likely be a good Senator and a reliable Democratic vote. Hopefully the next part of his life he can move on to a happier fortune.

    ReplyReply
  156. 156
    bemused says:

    @eric:

    Oh, I think he will. If I can’t have Franken as my senator, an unshackled Franken will be something to look forward to.

    ReplyReply
  157. 157
    sherparick says:

    @Psych1: 1) It has been open season on Democrats since Nixon ratfucked the Muskie campaign. Democratic and progressives need be aware of it and realize that there is the double standard “IOKIYAR” and “IACIYAD” for a long time; tough the world is not fair. 2. Franken was obviously a “toucher” and generally his victims were women he just casually met or work for a short time with and did not expect to see again. 3. His offenses are not Trump level, Moore level, Weinstein level, or Spacey level (which are actual crimes), but they are offenses that women should not have to put up with and that the party whose base consists of women and minorities should not put up with. If you can read Tina Dupuy’s column, and still think Franken should stay in the Senate with his credibility and moral character shot, go for it. https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/12/i-believe-frankens-accusers-because-he-groped-me-too/547691/

    ReplyReply
  158. 158
    Elizabelle says:

    @WaterGirl: I think two careers ended today. One of them is Gillibrand’s.

    Traitor. Traitor. Traitor. Traitor.

    ReplyReply
  159. 159
    patroclus says:

    Tammy Duckworth, who I volunteered for, was a member of this anti-democratic anti-rule of law lynch mob, just lost my vote.

    ReplyReply
  160. 160
    TenguPhule says:

    @Bruce K:

    but the numerous subsequent accusations

    All of which were even SKETCHIER then the first one. Which is saying something.

    So the floor for any Democrat in office to resign is

    3 Republican accusers.

    4 anon accusers.

    1 completely discredited idiot of an accuser.

    What could possibly go wrong with that?

    ReplyReply
  161. 161
    Jeffro says:

    On an only-slightly-Senate-related note, here’s why I have faith in the future: read this essay by this young lady when you have a sec.

    “I was a teenage Senate page. The thought of ‘Senator Roy Moore’ makes me sick.”

    …Pages witness history, but in our own little way, we affect it, too. We serve as a physical metaphor for the future of America. Senators, while determining the fate of legislation that can alter our nation, see us sitting in front of them on the floor. Thirty of us stand in for millions. We are always there, looming over their votes and decisions. Sen. Bob Corker (R-Tenn.) told us that sometimes he goes into the back lobby and prays before voting. I like to think that when senators pray or think over the vote, they are reminded of the entire generation, represented by pages, that will inherit the decisions they make. They are reminded that the votes and legislation are not just about some partisan argument but about real children and their families.

    Pages look up to the senators they serve. Imagine having health care explained to you in a live speech by Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) or the national debt explained by Sen. James Lankford (R-Okla.). Imagine the pride you would feel in your nation after seeing Biden taking the time to have a genuine conversation with the Senate cafeteria staff. Imagine how in awe you would be as a young girl as you watched newly elected Democratic Sens. Kamala D. Harris (Calif.) and Tammy Duckworth (Ill.) take the floor for the first time.

    It’s difficult to imagine that a man accused of hitting on children at the mall will inspire the same feeling.

    If Moore joins the Senate, each time he makes a speech, 30 pairs of eyes will be looking up at him from the rostrum — 30 16-year-olds who should be able to look up to him as a mentor, who should be guided by his actions. Whoever fills the seat from Alabama should be able to look at the pages and see hope and innocence. But Moore does not appear to see children that way. How can Moore be expected to make decisions with the interests of children at heart when he stands accused of betraying children? How can he learn from pages, and how can pages learn from him, when he is accused of viewing girls our age through such a twisted lens?

    Cue Laura Ingraham mocking this ‘snowflake’ for being concerned about being around a sexual predator…also cue another couple thousand young folks who’ll easily cancel out Ingraham and her troglodyte followers.

    ReplyReply
  162. 162
    Emma says:

    @ruemara: so we give in to what? Teach them a lesson? Protect our “leading candidates”?

    Or are you saying we must accept unequal battlegrounds forever and always fight with one hand tied behind our backs?

    ReplyReply
  163. 163
    Kay says:

    I like him too. I thought he would be a good presidential candidate against Trump because he’s both friendly and smart and I thought it would be an effective contrast to how fucking nasty Trump is.

    I don’t know why they did it. I get the argument for the deviousness of Gillenbrand but I’m wary of Dem women being portrayed as ambitious and cynical due to the weird, fucked up analysis of Clinton.

    Maybe we have to wait and see what happens. If it was dumb I’ll accept that, but I don’t know what will happen.

    ReplyReply
  164. 164
    Schlemazel says:

    @PJ:
    Our other Senator is an empty suit who salivates every time her name is mentioned as a possible VP candidate. She has done nothing of significance during her time & sits on the same gad damned judiciary committee the Franken did. Did you see her grill Sessions? I watched, she did shit and that was the best she could muster against an easy target. This woman that will replace Franken is a blank slate to me despite involvement in the MN DFL. SHe has made no splash, no noise on anything & will fit right in is my guess.

    ReplyReply
  165. 165
    TenguPhule says:

    @sherparick:

    If you can read Tina Dupuy’s column, and still think Franken should stay in the Senate with his credibility and moral character shot, go for it.

    TIna Dupuy can DIE IN A FIRE.

    IT WAS HER FUCKING WAIST DURING A PHOTO SHE REQUESTED.

    ReplyReply
  166. 166
    Cacti says:

    @No Drought No More:

    The single redeeming aspect of a Franken resignation will be to provide a study in contrasts between the two party’s

    If voters actually cared about that shit, why do the Republicans control every political branch of government?

    ReplyReply
  167. 167
    bemused says:

    @Emma:

    I do think the ratfucking will be exposed.

    ReplyReply
  168. 168
    joel hanes says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    We can run Sanders/Sarandon 2020 and watch us get single digit returns. But they will be the purest results ever.

    Bernie’s far less spotless than Franken, but also far less vetted.
    Roger Stone could take him down in a week, but Bernie’s far more useful to the Republicans in his current role.

    ReplyReply
  169. 169
  170. 170

    At least Michael Slager’s going to prison for 20 years.

    ReplyReply
  171. 171
    Immanentize says:

    I have a friend in the MA A.G.’s office who is doing amazing work on a number of critical issues (consumer protection, guns, justice, etc.). And we have a pretty good AG — Maura Healey. But my friend is so disillusioned about the mechanisms of politics. How much access the money people have even here in MA. She is considering whether she will stay where she is or hop to another job, which she can do without effort. She likes the fact that the A.G. can change future behaviors of wrong doing entities, but hates that the money people can change the behaviors of the A.G.

    This Franken thing feels like that to me. I am no naif, believe me. I have the litigation wounds to prove it. But I just do not get the calculation that the Dems are making. I don’t get it. Are we really politically in a superior place now that Franken will leave in a few weeks? Or have we once again showed we can be rolled by the slimiest of efforts by the GOP? I guess we really won’t know until the mid-term elections are had in 11 months. But until then, where is the coherent, powerful resistance by our political leaders? Who are thy? I don’t see them anywhere.

    And look, I am Mr. Effin Sunshine. I think optimism is a winning strategy. I am no Donny Downer. But I don’t see who (one or many) will lead us out of this pit of fail.

    ReplyReply
  172. 172
    debit says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    This changes next to nothing.

    It means that if the ratfuckers can find even one woman to come forward and allege something (he touched my waist, oh goodness gracious me!) we must resign. That’s what it changes.

    ReplyReply
  173. 173
    The Moar You Know says:

    (I know a D will fill the seat)

    @d58826: How do you know this? I don’t. I know MN has a Dem governor who is dealing with a GOP House and Senate and who may decide it’s expedient to cave and appoint an “independent” or a GOPer. Or who may get wrapped around a slew of lawsuits and not be able to appoint anyone.

    Saying “the seat is safe” is a crock of shit. No seat is safe, and we just gave one away in a purple state.

    ReplyReply
  174. 174
    WaterGirl says:

    @PJ: Yes yes yes. Everything you say is true.

    ReplyReply
  175. 175
    Elizabelle says:

    Today, I am ashamed to be a Democrat.

    Never before. Never. But ashamed. Of the cowardice. I didn’t think that was a true charge. But it is.

    ReplyReply
  176. 176
    TenguPhule says:

    @ruemara:

    The point is, move on and build up a reserve of good candidates and make it clear to them that they’re having to do things the black way – twice as good for half the reward.

    So eternal minority status and then CIvil War to actually fix things it is, then.

    ReplyReply
  177. 177
    smintheus says:

    Franken should resign and in so doing make a strong case for other abusers to resign, especially Trump. I’ve said before, he should make his resignation date effective on the day when Trump resigns.

    ReplyReply
  178. 178
    TenguPhule says:

    @PJ:

    If you think all senators, or all Democratic senators are alike, I don’t know what to say to you.

    Its easy.

    “MORON MORON MORON MORON MORON.”

    ReplyReply
  179. 179
    Brachiator says:

    A study in contrasts. MSNBC reconsiders severing ties with Sam Seder, because they belatedly recognized that they were played by conservatives. Democrats, on the other hand, can’t get a clue.

    In the days since its decision to sever ties with contributor Sam Seder, MSNBC says it has listened to the backlash and, in a surprising move, reversed course. Seder, who hosts The Majority Report, is now “welcome” on the network’s air going forward, EW has confirmed, after Seder was previously informed that he had no additional “scheduled appearances” until his contract expired in February.

    “Sometimes you just get one wrong — and that’s what happened here,” MSNBC president Phil Griffin said in a statement. “We made our initial decision for the right reasons — because we don’t consider rape to be a funny topic to be joked about. But we’ve heard the feedback, and we understand the point Sam was trying to make in that tweet was actually in line with our values, even though the language was not. Sam will be welcome on our air going forward.”

    The initial decision to not renew Seder’s contract as a contributor was made in the wake of right-wing media resurfacing a controversial joke the progressive commentator and radio host tweeted in 2009, about rape accusations made against Roman Polanski. (The tweet has since been deleted.) “Don’t care re Polanski, but I hope if my daughter is ever raped it is by an older truly talented man w/a great sense of mise en scene,” Seder tweeted in 2009. The comments became controversial after Mike Cernovich, a far-right, pro-President Trump activist, recirculated them.

    ReplyReply
  180. 180
    hitless says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Absolutely – it’s incumbent upon the Dems to operate in a spirit of bipartisanship. Country before party. Bring back regular order. Plus, politically it would be a great move!

    ReplyReply
  181. 181
    Scotian says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    The other day you asked me to have hope and faith in America and Americans coming back from the dark side. In my reply I said I’d try but not seeing much to do so with, especially with the “purity ponies gonna purify” mindset that has become far too common within the Democratic party. Today I have lost that much more hope. When I look at Franken’s complainants and take ALL at face value, I *STILL* do not see grounds to treat him as his so called collegues just did. Censure him, sure, after due process, and let the voters in his State have final call, that much I see clear basis for, but not what I just witnessed. I heard women this morning equate the very least of sexual harassment claims on the same par they want sexual assault treated, as all one ugly thing which should be firing automatically.

    Sorry, that is like saying that finding out your Senator stole some candy bars in the past versus your Senator that stole a million dollars, despite in the law a massive recognition of difference for obvious reasons! Worse, he did not use abuse of power in any case I have heard of, whereas both Trump and Moore clearly did to boot, yet all are equally bad??? Really? Not even a slight level of distinction between groping and brutal awful assault and rape? REALLY?!?!?!

    I have not been this pissed on this topic since my wife was sexually assaulted by her uncle well over a decade ago. Way to go there Dems in the Senate, and it is curious that it is the SAME Senator from NY who led on this, same as she did with denouncing Bill Clinton’s lack of resignation the other day. Politically flavoured and clearing of the field of a possible competitor perhaps? Who can know, but I have to say the manner this was done in smells a lot on his own side AS WELL AS the smell of ratfucking which has been around this from the outset.

    Moral high ground arguments have not worked all that well politically since the 80s, so forgive me if I view that argument yet again being used like this with some skepticism. If for once it does turn out that way, well then his sacrifice and abuse (and the way he has been equated with Moore over and over again is in my mind clearly qualifying as such) might actually end up meaning something, but as so many other turning points past, I ain’t holding my breath.

    Finally, I find it infuriating that this removes the best Senator on Sessions questioning and focus where the Russian investigations are concerned and the Russian infiltration into team Trump. I have to wonder which was the greater political payoff/priority, getting Franken or getting Trump/Sessions. From the outside looking in, it looks more like being so lily white you cannot be besmirched matters than the other. Sorry, not my reading of reality at the moment, and politically craven and exploitative. This was a political move from beginning to end IMHO, and it cost the Dems one of the best Senators they ever had in the past quarter century, and they did so on the flimsiest of bases before giving ANY due process. Way to go there…I’m sure that is going to work out swimmingly…*SIGH*

    Sorry Cheryl Rofer but this day has dimmed my ability to hold faith, and not by a small margin. I depend on the American left and center to remember context, nuance, and distinctions, and when I see them throw it out like this for this kind of expediency…well not an encouraging sign, not to me at least. Being Canadian it is hard to watch this stupidity knowing that it WILL drift up here if you folks do not get your own house in order, indeed our Harper government of nine years that Justin Trudeau saved us from in 2015 is no small example of such. THAT is why I care about American domestic politics so, because we cannot escape its repercussions while having zero say, no representation as you folks said once upon a time, albeit without the taxation part, so there is that at least…

    Sorry, but I am seriously disheartened right now.

    ReplyReply
  182. 182
    TenguPhule says:

    @Elizabelle: Come sit by me.

    This is worse then 2009-2010.

    At least our party had the excuse of not seeing the ratfucking coming from a mile away then.

    ReplyReply
  183. 183
    Marcopolo says:

    @ruemara: This. This is pretty much where my thinking is. I will miss Franken’s voice & wit and dedication to working for regular folks. I honor & respect the work he has done. It’s a sad day.

    ReplyReply
  184. 184
    Cacti says:

    @smintheus:

    Franken should resign and in so doing make a strong case for other abusers to resign, especially Trump.

    Now that Franken’s gone, how bout you hold your breath waiting for Trump to resign?

    Let us know how many times a day you pass out.

    ReplyReply
  185. 185
    LurkerNoLonger says:

    This whole situation sucks. It sucks if the allegations are true and it sucks if the allegations are false. It just sucks.

    ReplyReply
  186. 186
    different-church-lady says:

    @Brachiator: This really is good news, considering that true progressives have always thought progressive writers were worth more than Democratic members of congress.

    ReplyReply
  187. 187
    Emma says:

    And to those of you who keep harping that he won’t matter because he will be replaced by another democrat (and isn’t that a lovely prospect for men and women thinking of running as democrats)Franken’s vote is the least important thing. He was a fighter willing to take the battle to the enemy. We’ve lost a guy who could get the media’s attention in a positive way.

    ReplyReply
  188. 188
    TenguPhule says:

    @Kay:

    but I’m wary of Dem women being portrayed as ambitious and cynical due to the weird, fucked up analysis of Clinton.

    Trust me Mazie Hirono is that horrible sterotype. She’s resigning from the Senate to run for governor.

    Birds of a feather really do flock together.

    ReplyReply
  189. 189
    germy says:

    …because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and God-darnit people like me. #Franken— Donald Trump Jr. (@DonaldJTrumpJr) December 7, 2017

    Your father is a sexual predator. You are endorsing a pedophile in Alabama. Shut. Up. https://t.co/HYjrcxHYhS— Eliza Orlins (@eorlins) December 7, 2017

    ReplyReply
  190. 190
    TriassicSands says:

    Three points about the avalanche of sexual impropriety accusations:

    1. In most cases, anonymous charges are unacceptable. The accused have a right to know who their accusers are.

    2. Women must, in the future, come forward with accusations at the time the events takes place. While understanding why some women held back, sometimes for decades, I firmly believe that true justice is only possible if accusations are made in a timely manner. There is a reason for the statute of limitations. Justice must be available to both the women and men involved or allegedly involved in such events.

    3. Believing women means taking their charges seriously and investigating sincerely and thoroughly — never dismissing them out of hand. Believing women does not mean that their accusations are accepted as verdicts.

    ReplyReply
  191. 191
    Betty Cracker says:

    @ruemara: Excellent comment. Thank you!

    ReplyReply
  192. 192
    WaterGirl says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I think two careers ended today. One of them is Gillibrand’s.

    I truly hope so.

    If the women of the senate wanted to band together, they should have made a statement that says the process is good, let’s have the senate investigation and then let’s investigate all accusations of this nature, regardless of what party you are in, as long as the accusations are not anonymous. Anonymous accusations are not, and should not, be considered.

    They also had a huge opportunity to stop what we’re seeing – that “a waist squeeze is the same thing as attempted rape of a 14-year old”. I’m so angry and upset about this that I barely have words to say what I’m trying to say.

    ReplyReply
  193. 193
  194. 194
    TenguPhule says:

    @Emma: Yes. Why should good candidates run under the Democratic Flag if they have to always keep one eye on their rear to watch for a knife coming for them at any time.

    This is grade school politics and our party flunked the test.

    ReplyReply
  195. 195
    debit says:

    @Schlemazel: So here’s a story: I work in a tax office. I had a vet come in who had several years on unfiled tax returns, and was getting levied by the IRS because of them. He had some emotional issues and was just at the end of his rope, would cry and make emotional statements about just giving up and vague intimations of suicide.

    I spent hours on the phone trying to help him, and got bounced from agent to agent and finally was told that because he was also a federal employee (worked for the VA) that his case could only be handled by one specific division of the IRS in CA who never answered their phone.

    I called Klobuchar’s local office and left a message asking for assistance. They never responded. I called Franken’s local office and spoke to a real person, who then followed up that day, and again the next day with a contact at the taxpayer’s advocate office who had the entire case in front of her,, who then had it resolved in less than a week.

    That’s what we’re losing.

    ReplyReply
  196. 196
    Davebo says:

    @different-church-lady: Pretty sure Franken will be writing more than ever now.

    ReplyReply
  197. 197
    Cacti says:

    @germy:

    I’d be laughing too if I was GOPer.

    Democrats got played.

    ReplyReply
  198. 198
    hellslittlestangel says:

    The only good that can come of this is if Democrats take the gloves off in the next election season. “Soft-on-crime Republican candidate X supported the child molester Roy Moore. Anti-christian Candidate X is on the side of criminals who are targeting YOUR children. He belongs in a prison cell, not in Congress.” Campaign like that, and I’ll contribute to your campaign.

    ReplyReply
  199. 199
    PJ says:

    @Yoda Dog: We shall see. Franken’s replacement is not going to be the kind of advocate he was. And he is only the first Democrat who is going to be brought down by internet masses manipulated by Republican ratfuckery.

    ReplyReply
  200. 200
    B.B.A. says:

    How to tell if it’s a ratfuck:
    If the accusations keep dripping out, Al is guilty as sin, and should let the door hit him on his way out.
    If there are no more accusations after today, it’s likely we were rolled.

    Either way, welcome to the Senate, Tina Smith.

    ReplyReply
  201. 201
    different-church-lady says:

    @TriassicSands: 1) Only if things go to court.

    2) This is just unfair.

    3) Nail on the head.

    ReplyReply
  202. 202
    germy says:

    "There is some irony that I am leaving while a man who bragged on tape about his history of sexual assault sits in the Oval Office, and a man who preyed on young girls runs for Senate with the full support of his party."–Al Franken with some actual, relevant "whataboutism."— Randi Mayem Singer (@rmayemsinger) December 7, 2017

    ReplyReply
  203. 203
    Kay says:

    I DO agree with you-all on how there won’t be any political benefit for “the high road”

    If white women gave a rat’s ass about sexual harassment they never would have elected Donald Trump. They don’t punch their weight on “women’s issues” and they NEVER have, even though every ten years media try to create some fabled “pushback” on women’s rights. How many times have we heard about the Year Of The Woman? We’re the last country to never elect a woman as the top political leader. We’re just not the vanguard on this. We’re behind just about every other democracy.

    I hope the political calculus wasn’t “well, we’ll garner the mighty force of outraged upper middle class women!” because there’s no such group of voters. There are a lot of them in media and we hear a lot from them but as a mass of voters? Has anyone ever seen them? I never have. The only identifiable group of white middle and upper class women were the women who backed Bush on “security”. Good job there, huh? Way to go, fellow white ladies! After that they gave us Trump, so they’re getting worse at this.

    ReplyReply
  204. 204
    WaterGirl says:

    @Schlemazel: Does someone have a list of the female senators who came out against Al yesterday? I would like to call each of their offices and give them an earful.

    ReplyReply
  205. 205
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    We are going to fucking roll them next year and then go from there.

    We just established that Democratic politicians should be required to resign based on anonymous complaints with no investigation whatsoever.

    How do you think that’s going to play out in the midterms? And women politicians shouldn’t assume they’re going to be immune to the exact same attacks.

    ReplyReply
  206. 206
    hitless says:

    @The Moar You Know: This absolutely true. Plus, how many people know how the confirmation process works? I don’t. Will there be a delay in seating Dem senator? Will it affect legislation?

    Jettisoning Franken without due process seems like a political miscalculation to me. And just to be clear, I’m not suggesting political benefit is a reason to keep a sexual harasser as Senator. I consider the charges against Franken to be unproven, which again doesn’t mean I disbelieve the women – it means I don’t know.

    ReplyReply
  207. 207
    TenguPhule says:

    @ruemara:

    And him not resigning was not going to prevent this from happening again.

    “Look, there’s no point in resisting. Just lie back and think of England.”

    The irony, it burns.

    ReplyReply
  208. 208
    Mike in DC says:

    If we can’t even bring pressure on Blake Farenthold to resign…

    ReplyReply
  209. 209
    Joe Bauers says:

    “For the 112th consecutive election, Democrats carry the state of Moral High Ground, which of course has no electoral votes but which has the *best* photo ops for preening.”

    ReplyReply
  210. 210
    hellslittlestangel says:

    @TriassicSands: Yes, yes, yes.

    ReplyReply
  211. 211
    different-church-lady says:

    @Davebo: And self-publishing? Who’s going to touch him? Not newspapers, and not publishing houses.

    ReplyReply
  212. 212
    geg6 says:

    @sherparick:

    I read it. She’s a fucking drama queen who needs to get over herself. I’m ashamed to be the same gender.

    And the fact that she equates an arm around her waist with my rape is infuriating. Fuck her.

    ReplyReply
  213. 213
    Mnemosyne says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    And yet it’s mostly men calling for Franken’s head here, not women.

    He is the designated scapegoat for other men’s guilt about their own behavior.

    ReplyReply
  214. 214
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    And women politicians shouldn’t assume they’re going to be immune to the exact same attacks.

    Hell, don’t be surprised if the women politicians are tarred as “lying liars who lie about sexual harassment to bring down good men” just to twist the knife a little.

    ReplyReply
  215. 215
    Marcopolo says:

    @WaterGirl: Everyone but Klobuchar. Have fun.

    ReplyReply
  216. 216
    cleek says:

    @The Moar You Know:

    i’ll see if i can find a way to show the list in a different way.

    ReplyReply
  217. 217
    The Moar You Know says:

    The only good that can come of this is if Democrats take the gloves off in the next election season.

    @hellslittlestangel: Can’t do that. “They go low, we go high”, remember that bullshit? It’s a mantra with the party. What it really means is “I am too chickenshit to fight for my beliefs”. And that message is not lost on those who need help the most.

    Democrats have neither courage nor convictions and just proved it to the entire world today. I am enraged.

    ReplyReply
  218. 218
    Cacti says:

    @hellslittlestangel:

    The only good that can come of this is if Democrats take the gloves off in the next election season.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    ReplyReply
  219. 219
    Gin & Tonic says:

    Perfect. Get rid of a smart, effective Democratic Senator, split the Democratic party, allow Gillibrand to beclown herself kneecapping Franken, thus (probably) killing her chances for 2020, poison the #MeToo movement, what am I missing? Roger Stone is damn good at what he does, and we are fucking morons.

    ReplyReply
  220. 220
    WaterGirl says:

    @debit: Absolutely.

    ReplyReply
  221. 221
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne: Be fair. Six women were the ones who plunged the actual knife in his back.

    ReplyReply
  222. 222
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Kay: That’s pretty much where I am too.

    ReplyReply
  223. 223
  224. 224
    TenguPhule says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    what am I missing?

    Make Moore and Trump look electable.

    ReplyReply
  225. 225
    Another Scott says:

    To pile on, I too think that short-circuiting the Ethics investigation means that we won’t ever really know how many of these charges have substance, and how many are just political score-settling. And it means that the Senate still won’t have a sensible, timely, working process to address charges like these and that is a big problem.

    But I can’t second guess the Senate women who spoke up on this so forcefully. Maybe they’ve seen evidence that we haven’t.

    Franken was always going to be limited in politics by his previous life as a comedian. It’s a shame from a public policy perspective that his public career is (apparently) ending this way. But I agree that what is much more important is that someone replaces him who can continue to fight for sensible policies.

    If the MN governor appoints the Lt. Gov. to replace Franken, that will help speed the recovery from this event. Reporting I’ve seen indicated that she was expected to be a “caretaker” and not necessarily run for the seat herself (but who knows if that is accurate). Unless something comes out to show that Franken was overwhelmingly railroaded, and the voters of MN accept that, then he probably shouldn’t think of running again in 2018 (but maybe in 2024??).

    My $0.02.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  226. 226
    Immanentize says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    He is the designated scapegoat for other men’s guilt about their own behavior.

    That seems a bit strong and broad brushed. But maybe I hope it is true at least as far as Tom Cotton — who came out strongly for Franken — is cconcerned.

    ReplyReply
  227. 227
    Mnemosyne says:

    @sherparick:

    I did read Dupuy’s column. If you are horribly damaged because someone squeezed your WAIST at a photo op, you need to seek psychological help.

    Franken is a scapegoat. Other male politicians are going to continue to be allowed to get away with far worse behavior because he was sacrificed for their sins. Now they can point to him to distract from their own bad behavior.

    ReplyReply
  228. 228
    different-church-lady says:

    @Joe Bauers:

    …but which has the *best* photo ops for preening.

    Just make sure you don’t touch anyone you’re standing next to.

    ReplyReply
  229. 229
    bemused says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Ouch, I’d hesitate to be that hard on Tina. She had a really rough childhood she’s written about. We don’t know what she hasn’t written about but to be so upset by the waist squeeze and then say she wouldn’t want her husband to do that to her in public is a little odd. I think a lot of women who had rotten childhoods and/or have been sexually assaulted have ptsd. Even a non-sexual hug or touch by a man can trigger flashbacks.

    ReplyReply
  230. 230
    Raoul says:

    @different-church-lady:

    By the way, kiss that seat goodbye in special election.

    That is the CW. And it may be. But I think 2018 could be such a wave election that, with a good choice for appointed senator, the seat might hold. Certainly we need to do all that is possible to fight for it. Amy K will be up as well, and all our statewide constitutional officers. Gov Dayton is not seeking a third term. High stakes next November for sure.

    ReplyReply
  231. 231
    Peale says:

    @Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes: Yep. And during all of that time, voters rewarded that rectitude by expanding our footprint into the moral hills of absolutely nowhere. Because we haven’t solved the problem that human beings, especially males, sometimes deploy sexual strategies that fall into the “immoral” and “misconduct” categories and worse. And it will continue to happen because “human beings” have not yet been replaced by robots. So every few months or few years, we’ll have another issue and will need to “regain that moral high ground” that voters don’t actually reward and will be shown again to be hypocrites about sex and gender. When people complain that the Democratic Party Doesn’t Stand for Anything! if the answer is “We’re the party that spends all of its time investigating our members for sexual misconduct”, you stand for something, but not something voters have particularly responded to.

    ReplyReply
  232. 232
    The Moar You Know says:

    i’ll see if i can find a way to show the list in a different way.

    @cleek: Damn, seriously – no need. I have a very good idea of who is in there, most people wouldn’t have that many, and most importantly it works. My first five years at this job, before taking over the security end, was development. I learned something very quickly: if it’s working and secure don’t mess with it.

    ReplyReply
  233. 233
    Cacti says:

    @Another Scott:

    But I can’t second guess the Senate women who spoke up on this so forcefully.

    How virtuous of you. You win the new Senate seat from the State of sensitive ponytail guy.

    ReplyReply
  234. 234
    Spanky says:

    So Gillibrand successfully removes a potential rival for the 2020/24/28 Presidential election. Good job, Kristen! Now we know how you roll.

    ReplyReply
  235. 235
    different-church-lady says:

    @Another Scott:

    Franken was always going to be limited in politics by his previous life as a comedian.

    I was astonished he got elected in the first place.

    ReplyReply
  236. 236
    WaterGirl says:

    @Gin & Tonic:

    Perfect. Get rid of a smart, effective Democratic Senator, split the Democratic party, allow Gillibrand to beclown herself kneecapping Franken, thus (probably) killing her chances for 2020, poison the #MeToo movement, what am I missing? Roger Stone is damn good at what he does, and we are fucking morons.

    I am so upset I am having a hard time expressing myself. Thanks for this, I think you’ve pretty much nailed it.

    ReplyReply
  237. 237
    d58826 says:

    @The Moar You Know: they are to busy taking the gloves off to continue fighting about the 2016 primary. Bernie continuies on his ego trip and Hillary has been told to sit down and shut up.

    ReplyReply
  238. 238
    SFAW says:

    Someone mentioned unintended consequences, Here’s one I can envision:

    Franken’s forced seppuku sends the message that the Dems are more concerned with gaining some bullshit “moral high ground,” instead of protecting their own non-mortal sinners. No non-politician with more than two brain cells to rub together gives a rat’s ass about that.

    Some of their constituents will say to themselves “if those candy-asses aren’t willing to fight, and will turn tail at the first sign of pushbacl/sandbagging, then why should I believe they’ll look out for me?” Or they’ll say “these morons LIKE losing. Why should I waste my vote on them?” And why do I think that? Because I went through some of that, probably around the same time Senator Franken was starting his speech. I would never vote for the Party of Traitors, but the Purity of Essence morons in my party are doing their damnedest to get me to do that. [They won’t succeed, but I also realize not everyone hates the Rethugs as much as I do.]

    Fucking assholes.

    ReplyReply
  239. 239
    bemused says:

    @ruemara:

    And we need to fight hard for a Dem to get that senate seat when it comes up.
    That creep Coleman or other rotten Republican clones will be running.

    ReplyReply
  240. 240
    Schlemazel says:

    @debit:
    That story is not unique. Klobuchar is useless.I used to call almost weekly about issues & her staff would flat out lie to me. She lied to me when I talked to her about it. I have had the same experience of reaching out for assistance & getting nothing from Klobuchar but help from Franken. Given the cipher Dayton says he will appoint I expect she will be in the Amy mold & will get her ass kicked by a Republican next fall.

    ReplyReply
  241. 241
    TenguPhule says:

    @ruemara:

    but I am not here to die on the hill of Al Franken.

    Instead, we’re all going to die on the hill of Party Purity.

    ReplyReply
  242. 242
    Betty Cracker says:

    @WaterGirl: 32 senators called for Franken to resign — 19 men, 13 women. Why do only the women deserve an earful?

    ReplyReply
  243. 243
    Zelma says:

    Today I am not proud of being a Democrat or a woman. I am appalled that the Democratic women of the Senate acted as they did. The Democrats abandoned a good Senator without a hearing as the result of a partisan witch hunt. The voters of Minnesota were willing to wait to hear what his defense was. Look at the numbers. To be frank. this episode will weaken the effect of the #metoo movement. There are lots of battles to be fought to improve the treatment of women but a wise general chooses her battles whenever possible. This was a battle fought purely on the enemy’s terms. We didn’t even put up a good defense. And we lost. Sad.

    ReplyReply
  244. 244
    different-church-lady says:

    @Raoul: Roy Moore is gonna tell us whether a wave is coming or not.

    ReplyReply
  245. 245
    PJ says:

    @joel hanes: It was totally clear at the time that the Bush Administration was lying. Cheney constantly stated that Iraq was behind the 9/11 attacks when, in fact, bin Laden hated Iraq’s secular government. There was no legitimate evidence that Iraq had any kind of weapon of mass destruction which could reach the US. The most Bush provided was a photo of some rocket tubes which could shoot rockets a few miles, maybe, but that’s it. Everyone who supported that war did it because they were stone cold idiots, they thought it was the politically expedient thing to do (this would be most of the Democrats who voted for the AUMF), or they just wanted to see us kill a bunch of Arabs. It was all bullshit, and you stepping in now and saying,”Well, who could’ve known?” is even more bullshit.

    ReplyReply
  246. 246
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Yoda Dog: Fuck that, this changes everything.

    We were riding a wave of people signing up to run for office. Now everyone knows that the Party that was supposed to be supporting them has the knives ready for their backs like the meanest Mean Southern Belle.

    If I were getting ready to run for office, I’d be having second thoughts right now.

    ReplyReply
  247. 247
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @WaterGirl:

    They were all given a heads up that he was resigning to allow them a chance to score some political points.

    The last “accuser” was the weakest of all. “He put his hand on my waist !!!” .

    The only real thing that changed yesterday was that it became known Franken was going to make an announcement today resigning.

    ReplyReply
  248. 248
    TenguPhule says:

    @bemused: And if you think there’s going to be much energy for that there after knifing the best one there in the back then you’re an optimist.

    ReplyReply
  249. 249

    @Another Scott: “If the MN governor appoints the Lt. Gov. to replace Franken, that will help speed the recovery from this event. Reporting I’ve seen indicated that she was expected to be a “caretaker” and not necessarily run for the seat herself (but who knows if that is accurate).”

    I think this will prove accurate. Dayton is an extremely wealthy man at the very end of his career, and his Lt Gov is close to retirement as well. She’ll be a reliable D vote for the next 14 months.

    ReplyReply
  250. 250
    Raoul says:

    @PJ:

    Franken’s replacement is not going to be grilling Sessions on his lying to Congress, or advocating for net neutrality. She is going to be sitting back and dutifully voting the way she is told to vote for the next year.

    Oh, hells no. I’m not sure why you think this, but if it happens, she will get primaried. Heck, I’ll primary her.

    ReplyReply
  251. 251
    smintheus says:

    @Cacti: Did you read as far as my second sentence?

    ReplyReply
  252. 252
    Aardvark Cheeselog says:

    ITT: Democrats in Disarray.

    Nice try, Betty.

    ReplyReply
  253. 253
    Brachiator says:

    @ruemara:

    People. There was no good way out of this.

    Actually there was. Investigation. Consideration of various options if allegations were found to be true. Letting Franken’s voters decide.

    This is going to be a brutal game for years.

    The Democrats are not playing to win. This will not end well.

    ReplyReply
  254. 254
    Fair Economist says:

    @Yarrow:

    MSNBC fell for Cernovich’s attempted ratfucking of Sam Seder and fired him. Now they have reversed their decision.

    Well, finally. We’ve had a number of ratfuckings before that could have been reversed, like ACORN and Shirley Sherrod, but weren’t. So while firing without due process is still wrong, this is a step forward.

    ReplyReply
  255. 255
    PJ says:

    @sherparick: That essay is precisely why Franken should’ve stayed in the Senate. She was upset because he put his hand around her waist when she asked for a photo together. That is insane. If, as seems to be the case, she is the kind of person who can’t stand to be touched, because it is so far outside of the norm of our culture, she needs to warn people of that, particularly when she asks for a photo with them.

    ReplyReply
  256. 256
    different-church-lady says:

    @Raoul: Primary! It’s a magic verb!

    ReplyReply
  257. 257
    bemused says:

    @WaterGirl:

    Might take awhile. Their phones so busy I couldn’t get any staffer except Klobuchar’s the other day.

    ReplyReply
  258. 258
    geg6 says:

    @bemused:

    Then maybe she shouldn’t cozy up to a celebrity and ask for a photo. Fuck her.

    ReplyReply
  259. 259
    Yoda Dog says:

    @debit: No, that was already the case. I don’t know, call me a coward or whatever but I’m still proud to be a democrat today. The James O’Keefe’s of the world have been around at least as long as I have. What this will embolden their ilk? They’re plenty bold. Bold is not their problem.

    ReplyReply
  260. 260
    Immanentize says:

    @Spanky: Shit, Spanky, if that was really what she was doing, I might respect her actions a lot more.

    ReplyReply
  261. 261
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    He’s not going to matter next November. We are going to fucking roll them next year and then go from there. This changes next to nothing.

    “We don’t give a SHIT about you. All we care about is how you vote. You are EXPENDABLE CANNON FODDER and we can and will betray you at the drop of a Republican accusation no matter how stupid or flimsy it may be. Now, who wants to be the first sacrificial lamb, er, I mean candidate?”

    -Our Democratic Party’s New Message

    ReplyReply
  262. 262
    FlipYrWhig says:

    @debit @TenguPhule: Until the other day I didn’t even know it was possible to “grope” a waist. Mostly this seems to prove that people don’t read past the headline, like Donna Brazile on “rigging.”

    ReplyReply
  263. 263
    hellslittlestangel says:

    @Betty Cracker: Because we expect men to be horrible?

    ReplyReply
  264. 264

    @Kay: Most middle class white married women vote the way their men do, all the demographic breakup of the election results point to this.

    ReplyReply
  265. 265
    Spanky says:

    @Elizabelle: Oh, aren’t you the optimist!

    ReplyReply
  266. 266
    hitless says:

    @Gin & Tonic: This comment should be promoted somehow.

    If Tweeden coming forward was politically motivated, it has succeeded spectacularly. Beyond removing a politically effective Senator, this move has riven the party and the voters. Look at this board and reliable Dem voters saying they are done with the party.

    ReplyReply
  267. 267
    Cacti says:

    @d58826:

    they are to busy taking the gloves off to continue fighting about the 2016 primary. Bernie continuies on his ego trip and Hillary has been told to sit down and shut up.

    Imagine if Hillary ran against Bernie again for the Dem nomination.

    How many seconds would it take the newly converted “all women must be believed” congregation to go right back to “that ball busting bitch can’t tell me what to do!”?

    ReplyReply
  268. 268
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: Why? Because they banded together and forced him out. Because as women they felt they had the moral authority and obligation to take a stand, and they took a stupid stand that hurts the party. Because I expect more from them so I’m more disappointed that they are so short-sighted. I think the women who banded together are the ones who are knee-capping the “MeToo” movement. The investigation of Franken would have set a precedent for how these kinds of (non-anonymous) accusations should be handled. Now they have shut down the whole thing by rushing to judgment and not relying on the process.

    ReplyReply
  269. 269
    geg6 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Because they are the ones who started it and pushed everyone else to back them. I hate them all. They are anti-democratic.

    ReplyReply
  270. 270
    bemused says:

    @Draco7:

    Me too. And I want to know the women Dem senators’ actual rationale for ganging up on Franken. The real story.

    ReplyReply
  271. 271
    TenguPhule says:

    @Immanentize:

    But I just do not get the calculation that the Dems are making. I don’t get it.

    Simply assume our party leaders are idiots and it all makes perfect sense.

    ReplyReply
  272. 272
    ruemara says:

    @Emma: Why not? Black people have done that for centuries. What have I said that did not completely acknowledge this was an unfair, unequal playing field. This hardball, knife in the guts, kick to the face time and has been for years. Are you telling me something I did not know? No. Is that the reality? Yes. You want to roast me for being right? Go ahead. Just understand I do clap back.

    ReplyReply
  273. 273
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @ruemara: Good people will stay out of Democratic politics because they now know for sure that at the first sight of any misstep they will be savaged by members of their own party. High ground! We are so pure! Aren’t we wonderful that our shit doesn’t stink because we eat our own. Yay! We win by not supporting Dems and kissing the asses of Republicans. Well done, Democrats, you gave in to Republican ratfucking once again.

    ReplyReply
  274. 274
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    How many seconds would it take the newly converted “all women must be believed” congregation to go right back to “that ball busting bitch can’t tell me what to do!”?

    How many seconds are in instantly?

    ReplyReply
  275. 275
    Raoul says:

    @different-church-lady: Yeah, yeah. But the point is, why is PJ being be so baselessly dour about who takes Al’s seat? If she wants to win in 2018, being a cautious nebbish is not the formula.

    ReplyReply
  276. 276
    different-church-lady says:

    It is just utterly astonishing to think that Franken is paying a far larger price from the dynamics that Trump set in motion than Trump is.

    ReplyReply
  277. 277
    Schlemazel says:

    @WaterGirl:
    Not sure. I am so beaten down I stopped caring to fight this. I want to vote a straight Republican ticket next year, I am white, male, can pass as a christian and as safe as I can be. I’d set the world on fire right now except for the damn grandkids

    ReplyReply
  278. 278
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Scotian:

    I agree completely and wish I could join you in Canada tomorrow. I’m now completely pessimistic about the 2018 elections and I’m starting to have anxiety attacks about what will happen if God forbid the Republicans get a filibuster-proof majority. And I am constantly reminded now of what Susie Madrak said years ago: “The Republicans are the spawn of Satan, and the Democrats are too weak and cowardly to save us from them.”

    ReplyReply
  279. 279
    Fair Economist says:

    @Another Scott:

    But I can’t second guess the Senate women who spoke up on this so forcefully. Maybe they’ve seen evidence that we haven’t.

    If they had, they should have said so. The publicly available info did not justify a demand to resign.

    It would have been a very different situation if Gillibrand had said she had private information supporting the allegations she did not wish to make public, but that she had decided justified calling for resignation. But she didn’t.

    ReplyReply
  280. 280
    TenguPhule says:

    @ruemara:

    Why not? Black people have done that for centuries.

    And police can still kill them with impunity.

    Yeah, not seeing a bright side here.

    ReplyReply
  281. 281
    different-church-lady says:

    @Raoul: The seat is gone in the special election. Period.

    ReplyReply
  282. 282
    Nelle says:

    @Scotian: I’m sitting on the bench with you. Truly. Damn it. If no one can see the difference between these accusations and what Moore, Trump, and Weinstein were doing, they don’t have business making laws. And I think of all those of us who will be affected by losing a sharp and quick mind in the Senate and on the Judiciary. I think Franken may be walking away thinking what I imagine Obama might have thought walking away. “Damn, people, I can’t even lead people this dumb and naive. You deserve the government you get.”

    I was ten when I was first “p-grabbed” – by a stranger in public. I was 28 when I was grabbed by a man who was caught and turned out to be a rapist. I fought him off. I am under no illusion that things are uncomfortable to some to have a man put his arm around your waist for a photo op. But don’t you dare equate that with assault and the use of sex for power and intimidation.

    I will second-guess those women. If he is that much of a dastardly villain, I want to know and I want it out in public. If only to protect other women in the future. And to protect men too. This just protects power and it ain’t in our hands, even less so, now Democrats. Senators aren’t simply exchangeable.

    ReplyReply
  283. 283
    SFAW says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    Everybody needs to chill the fuck out a little bit, imho. We’re going to be alright, folks. For fuck sakes. Al Franken is one democratic vote soon to be replaced by another. He’s not going to matter next November. We are going to fucking roll them next year and then go from there. This changes next to nothing.

    You know who agrees with you? President Hillary Clinton, Governor Charlie Crist, Senator Harvey Gantt, and a host of others who kicked the ass of their Rethug rival — N months before the actual election.

    Can we please FUCKING STOP with the “we’re guaranteed to win, because the polls 12 months out tell us so” idiocy?

    Use Franken’s sandbagging as a motivator to make calls, get people registered to vote, do voter education, whatever — but don’t fucking tell me today that there’s nothing to worry about for the midterms. Tell me in December, 2018 — if things turn out the way we all want, hope, and are working for.

    ReplyReply
  284. 284
    WaterGirl says:

    @Schlemazel: This is so fucking stupid that I can barely stand it. At least when Trump and the republicans do that we’re not party to it. But to even think of voting republican – I am assuming that even if you want to for revenge, you know that would be a horrible mistake.

    ReplyReply
  285. 285
    hitless says:

    @Knight of Nothing: There is a real chance the Republicans take that Senate seat in the next election. I’m not up on current Minnesota politics, but I have lived there and it isn’t some overwhelmingly progressive state.

    I think it’s time for me to try to ignore the state of this country again.

    ReplyReply
  286. 286
    Cacti says:

    Here is the lesson that the GOP learned today:

    They can overthrow a democratically elected Dem Senator with zero pushback or due process, and get an assist from other Democrats in doing it.

    It’s going to be open season on every Democrat in Congress.

    ReplyReply
  287. 287
    BlueDWarrior says:

    @different-church-lady: Because the dynamics break because Republicans refuse to acknowledge or punish these things as problems, and Democrats most assuredly do. So this becomes a massive imbalance in how these things go down.

    This goes back to how the Republican base has gone crazy and it makes Democrats have to make a bunch of asinine calculations that can’t be rationalized out. If both Republicans and Democrats acted in a sane way when it came to accusations, we wouldn’t be where we are. But we live in a world where credible accusations sink Democrats and Republicans basically don’t, or really won’t, care.

    ReplyReply
  288. 288
    Raoul says:

    @Another Scott:

    To pile on, I too think that short-circuiting the Ethics investigation means that we won’t ever really know how many of these charges have substance, and how many are just political score-settling. And it means that the Senate still won’t have a sensible, timely, working process to address charges like these and that is a big problem.

    So much this. Being ad hoc and reactive on Franken shows how damn vulnerable the Dems are to ratf-ks. We need a clear and useable set of policies. Even if the GOP doesn’t give a shit. Spell out a process so that prima donna Senators (all of ’em, Katie) can’t just shiv a fellow Dem in a panic/stampede.

    ReplyReply
  289. 289
    ruemara says:

    @Brachiator: Tell me the good way out with no investigation started, media drum beats and more than enough anonymous women and media whores, (apologies to whores), tacking on. I’m all ears. I work in comms & PR. I could use the assist if this comes up.

    @Mike in Pasadena: Good people stay out of politics because they’d rather throw eggs from the side. But a lot of great people step up and no, they’re not looking at it like you.

    ReplyReply
  290. 290
    AliceBlue says:

    @sherparick:
    The only thing I thought after reading that was “this woman is a nut.”

    ReplyReply
  291. 291
    bemused says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Depends how pissed off people are, not only about Franken but the Trump regime and GOP too. MN has been a blue state, now more purple but think it could go back bluer particularly in urban, suburban areas.

    ReplyReply
  292. 292
    Brachiator says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    32 senators called for Franken to resign — 19 men, 13 women. Why do only the women deserve an earful?

    The women senators seemed to be the first to assemble in organized opposition to Franken. However, I do not,will not hold them singly responsible for what is a decision of the Senate Democrats. You are right to call out anyone who would put sole responsibility on the women senators.

    And clearly, as seen in sober comments not only here but elsewhere, this is not being taken as a clear victory in the battle against sexual harassment.

    ReplyReply
  293. 293
    bluefish says:

    Franken, while a grabby one evidently, was targeted. I’ll be forever grateful to him for having pinned down old Jeff Sessions during testimony in a manner that yielded real results. I gather others in powerful positions were considerably less appreciative of his skill and his efforts in that regard–and seem to think that this just don’t matter right about now. I’m also at that point of disgust that seems to entail only the pipe and a very faulty understanding of Newton’s Laws of Physics being at all helpful.

    My hope is that the sleepy sleepy Dems will finally get with it and weaponize this ridiculous resignation against Moore and Trump. They sure as hell better. Gillibrand I won’t even get into … aaarrrrgggh! I say this as a 62 year old woman who dealt with my fair share of grabby hands at the office, pushing up against the wall on work trips abroad, obscene phone calls and other etcs — And overall gas lighting when the shit hit the fan. One of my favorite signs from the Women’s March: “If you grab me by the p*****, I will kick you in the b****.” There is strength in simplicity, as the right very well knows — Let’s get real, real simple now. Moore first, Trump second, if the latter makes it that far without stroking out on camera. Am absolutely furious.

    ReplyReply
  294. 294
    Fair Economist says:

    @TenguPhule:

    ll of which were even SKETCHIER then the first one. Which is saying something.

    The Franken allegations were of a very different character than any of the previous ones used for mob justice, like Weinstein or Spacey. In those cases the allegations were very serious, of attempted rape or abuse of power for sexual molestation, and the allegations were very well supported. The Franken allegations were much less serious *and* much less well supported. The only serious one would be the Politico one, which did allege abuse of power – but it’s alone and an anonymous victim.

    ReplyReply
  295. 295
    bemused says:

    @geg6:

    Yes.

    ReplyReply
  296. 296
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    All of this is good news for Kamala Harris 2020 !

    ReplyReply
  297. 297
    Schlemazel says:

    @Another Scott:

    Franken was always going to be limited in politics by his previous life as a comedian

    WRONG! He had worked very hard and earned the reputation of being very serious, very smart and very good at carrying the liberals message.

    ReplyReply
  298. 298
    BellyCat says:

    @TriassicSands:

    Believing women means taking their charges seriously and investigating sincerely and thoroughly — never dismissing them out of hand. Believing women does not mean that their accusations are accepted as verdicts.

    The ONLY appropriate way to handle the allegations against Franken was this. The Dems should have been unified in their response of “concern”, while also insisting on the Rule of Law — which entailed an Ethics Inquiry.

    Republicans know the Achilles Heel of Democrats perfectly and have, yet again, struck a perfect blow — guided by Democratic helping hands, no less!

    This is just the beginning of Operation Ratfuckery as the New Normal, you can count on that.

    ReplyReply
  299. 299
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker: You and ruemara are both gonna eat your words with heaping amounts of crow in 2018. Mark my words.

    ReplyReply
  300. 300
    The Moar You Know says:

    Look at this board and reliable Dem voters saying they are done with the party.

    @hitless: I will be voting for my local Dems and for Applegate in the Issa matchup this cycle, but am going to sit out all the other higher office elections in 2018, and possibly for good depending on whether this party can find its spine or not. The person who wrote that she was throwing in the towel on voting because Dems were just doing the GOP’s work for them has a very valid point.

    If I vote for the GOP, or vote for a Dem that does the same things, really why bother?

    ReplyReply
  301. 301
    Mike in DC says:

    Okay, so contrarian argument here. Suppose Doug Jones wins next week, and we take the opportunity to bring it back to Trump (and Farenthold). If there is a political cost to being a creep, even for Republicans, then the housecleaning on the D side pays off. Even if Moore wins, it’s an opportunity to shift women voters over/back to the Democrats.
    I still think it’s kind of a shitty way for Franken’s career to end, but this might not be a disaster without mitigation, guys.

    ReplyReply
  302. 302
    Schlemazel says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    They led the charge, they deserve to hear first. None of them are clean but the whole effort was organized by a couple of the women Senators.

    ReplyReply
  303. 303
    Raoul says:

    @different-church-lady: His opponent, Norm Coleman, was a garbagey transparent self-dealer. His party switch after being mayor of St Paul was one of the slimiest moves. He only won his one term because Paul Wellstone died.

    ReplyReply
  304. 304
    tobie says:

    The forced resignation of Franken is a real punch in the gut to every Democrat who volunteers to hand out leaflets every two years at the polls, to make phone calls for midterm and general elections, to canvass for local, state and national candidates, and to do all the other grunt work for which one needs an enthusiastic and committed base. I can’t imagine how the volunteers for Doug Jones who liked Franken’s brand of smart, irreverent, liberal politics are feeling today.

    ReplyReply
  305. 305
    TenguPhule says:

    @Fair Economist: And expecting Politico to do a vetting on the order of the Washington Post is a pipe dream.

    ReplyReply
  306. 306

    I trust Debbie Stabenow, Claire McCaskill, Kamala Harris, Kristen Gillibrand and all the women Senators of the Democratic Party. This is the right thing to do.

    ReplyReply
  307. 307
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @WaterGirl: This. So much this.

    What do you people think will happen when this is revealed as ratfucking? “Oh, these wimmen. Can’t ever believe them, can we?”

    ReplyReply
  308. 308
    B.B.A. says:

    @bemused: 50% chance they know he’s guilty of everything he’s accused of, and worse. 50% chance they think he’s innocent, but recognized that the drip-drip-drip of bullshit stories not only made Al permanently irrelevant, it was sucking press attention away from stuff that actually matters.

    “But the Ethics Committee” – nobody has ever taken the Ethics Committee seriously. And if he’s cleared (which, again, we don’t know that’s how it would turn out), there’s still gonna be a whole new batch of stories about him coming out every damn week to debunk. Republicans like nothing better than flogging a dead horse until it doesn’t even stink anymore.

    We lost this one. We haven’t lost everything. Move on.

    (Looking forward to “Al Franken” making a confessional appearance on the Stuart Smalley program. In a few months, after the dust settles, SNL needs to make this happen.)

    ReplyReply
  309. 309
    Raoul says:

    @The Moar You Know: So this train of thought got us Trump. And quite possibly nuclear war with North Korea and who knows what contemporaneous shitstorm in the middle east.
    The Dems are not republican-lite. I get that today is demoralizing. Giving the GOP carte blanche to fuck the world because Dems are not 100% effective is Susan Sarandon territory.

    ReplyReply
  310. 310
    Fair Economist says:

    @Joe Bauers:

    “For the 112th consecutive election, Democrats carry the state of Moral High Ground, which of course has no electoral votes but which has the *best* photo ops for preening.”

    Make sure you don’t hold anybody’s waist or shoulder during those photo ops!

    ReplyReply
  311. 311
    amygdala says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Trust me Mazie Hirono is that horrible sterotype. She’s resigning from the Senate to run for governor.

    Do you have a link for this? Last I heard, Senator Hirono has metastatic renal cell carcinoma, which is not compatible with a gubernatorial campaign.

    ReplyReply
  312. 312
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Suppose Doug Jones wins next week, and we take the opportunity to bring it back to Trump (and Farenthold). If there is a political cost to being a creep, even for Republicans, then the housecleaning on the D side pays off.

    No it doesn’t. Republicans will stick together, their base voters will see that and assume all the charges are ratfucking.

    Even if Moore wins, it’s an opportunity to shift women voters over/back to the Democrats.

    Meanwhile, men and women voting for Democrats drop because they see a party ruled by a mob willing to send them to the gallows at the first accusation. I don’t see a net gain here.

    ReplyReply
  313. 313
    Schlemazel says:

    @Raoul:
    IT IS WORSE THAN THAT!”
    SHe says she will only be a chair warmer – no intention to run again in 18. We are so fucked.

    ReplyReply
  314. 314
    Cacti says:

    Maybe someday Democrats will learn to fight Republicans with the same vigor that they fight fellow Democrats.

    ReplyReply
  315. 315
    Yoda Dog says:

    @ruemara: Apparently having a hearing all next year about whether or not Al Franken was a little grabby or a lot is how we’re supposed to be “winning.”

    ReplyReply
  316. 316
    different-church-lady says:

    @Mike in DC:

    If there is a political cost to being a creep, even for Republicans, then the housecleaning on the D side pays off.

    THEY KNEW TRUMP WAS A CREEP AND THEY VOTED FOR HIM ANYWAY.

    ReplyReply
  317. 317
    Cacti says:

    @Schlemazel:

    IT IS WORSE THAN THAT!”
    SHe says she will only be a chair warmer – no intention to run again in 18. We are so fucked.

    But important people on this blog have said there’s no difference in replacing one of the most effective liberal voices in the Senate with an empty suit that votes D.

    ReplyReply
  318. 318
    Brachiator says:

    @ruemara:

    Tell me the good way out with no investigation started, media drum beats and more than enough anonymous women and media whores, (apologies to whores), tacking on. I’m all ears. I work in comms & PR. I could use the assist if this comes up.

    How about the Senate actually schedules an investigation? They require that any new accusations be channeled through the investigatory committee. Congress has done this before. It is hardly new.

    Hell, the Republicans had previously semi-promised to investigate Moore, and possibly to hold hearings to determine if he would even be seated if elected. All this has melted away. And the GOP is ignoring any supposed media drum beats.

    Hell, I am frankly puzzled at how easily Franken has been hustled out of office while people who have been accused of far worse offenses remain.

    I work in comms & PR.

    Very interesting. Here, I would defer to your expertise and ask you about cases in which people successfully fended off accusations, or settled for lesser punishment. How did they do it?

    ReplyReply
  319. 319
    Sab says:

    @sherparick: I read the article and I am not buying it.

    ReplyReply
  320. 320

    @hitless: true. But in a general sense, Dems are always on the brink of disaster: building and fixing and preserving things takes constant work and vigilance, whereas wrecking things takes only one lucky shot by some asshole. (BTW, I’m sure some would say this is what happened to Franken. But in this case, I don’t think so: he made his name in politics in part by calling liars out in public – he’s not afraid of doing it and never has been. So I just can’t credit the idea that this is purely a rat-fuck by bad actors. If it was, he’d be all over it.)

    ReplyReply
  321. 321
    TenguPhule says:

    @amygdala:My bad, So furious that I mixed her up with Colleen Hanabusa.

    ReplyReply
  322. 322
    LaNonna says:

    Such crap, calling for Franken to resign, before any process. I am both enraged and disheartened, and I do believe this is only the opening salvo in a concerted effort to hamstring the Democrats, ably assisted by our own. Grrrr….

    ReplyReply
  323. 323
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Cacti:

    Yes, right after they learn from the mistakes of 2016 by nominating Kamala Harris in 2020.

    For a while, I sort of held out hope that Trumps win would be shocking enough to restore some sanity to the democratic party. Ha – I was stupid to think that.

    ReplyReply
  324. 324
    Juju says:

    @Elizabelle: I read that article in “The Atlantic ” as well. It seemed much ado about very little. It was a waist hug with a squeeze. My guess is Franken didn’t even realize he did anything wrong, and she seemed to have put more meaning in what he did than the incident merited.

    ReplyReply
  325. 325
    Schlemazel says:

    @WaterGirl:
    I am very angry at the moment, I’ll get over it – mostly.
    The purity ponies gave us W, they gave us Dump, they took Brown, Elders and now Franken. They deserve to suffer, fuck them. BUt I know I won’t vote for a single Republican because the OT rule of “If I can find one deserving person”

    ReplyReply
  326. 326
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Kay:
    It was dumb. The Republicans came away with Franken’s scalp, handed to them on a platter by his own party.

    ReplyReply
  327. 327
    Emma says:

    @ruemara: because we had a chance to change the narrative and we blew it. We had a chance to say the playing ground is equal for everyone. We had a chance to tell young people that if they want to fight we have their back. AND WE BLEW IT.

    ReplyReply
  328. 328
    Marcopolo says:

    One of the things I like about BJ is the passion & energy folks bring here in commenting. There’s a lot of anger here today (and some others recently) & grief too. Great. It’s justified. Get it out. Work through it. And then let’s get back to the actual work in meatspace of finding great candidates, working to get them elected, and holding those already in office accountable. And something else people might want to do is to write or call Franken’s office and let him know how much you appreciated his service. I just did.

    ReplyReply
  329. 329
    Sab says:

    @Schlemazel: I think that’s good news. That’s leaves the field open so that others who might want to run don’t have to attack an incumbent (but unelected) female senator.

    ReplyReply
  330. 330
    PJ says:

    @Mike in DC: Nobody in Alabama is going to vote for Doug Jones, or not vote for Moore, because Al Franken resigned. If voters there haven’t made up their mind by now, they sure as hell are not taking allegations of sexual assault by anyone into consideration.

    ReplyReply
  331. 331
    different-church-lady says:

    @Knight of Nothing:

    But in a general sense, Dems are always on the brink of disaster

    We are not on the brink of disaster. WE ARE IN THE LASER SURVEYED GEOGRAPHIC CENTER OF DISASTER AND HAVE BEEN SINCE NOV. 8, 2016.

    ReplyReply
  332. 332
    Mike in DC says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: I’m sorry. Which white dude did you want them to nominate again?

    ReplyReply
  333. 333
    justawriter says:

    The only winners here are going to be the newspapers, television and AM radio stations of Minnesota who will receive and extra 10 or 20 million in Koch-bucks in 2018 to unseat whatever lame duck gets appointed to replace Franken.

    ReplyReply
  334. 334
    no comment says:

    For anyone interested, Tina Dupuy will be on Sirius XM channel 121 today at 2pm Eastern. She’s guest hosting for part of John Fugelsang’s show Tell Me Everything. She will likely be discussing Al Franken, but I don’t know whether or not she’ll be taking callers.

    I’m not sure whether I’ll be listening. I’m kind of interested in whether anyone will ask Dupuy how she compares her waist being squeezed during a photo to sexual harassment. I get that it was unwanted, but I have trouble seeing it as being sexual or malicious. I’m not a big hugger, I’ve been hugged against my wishes many times in my life. I don’t see this as much different.

    Fugelsang may be on later in the show. He gives a lot of leeway to people he considers his friends, and he’s mentioned that his wife made Dupuy’s wedding veil. So I expect him to defend Dupuy, even if she exaggerates the significance of what happened to her.

    ReplyReply
  335. 335
    Mike in DC says:

    @PJ: wasn’t the point. If voters reject Moore there, then it means sexual harassment and assault is toxic even with the GOP base. I don’t expect Franken’s resignation to affect the outcome, just to put us in a more advantageous position.

    ReplyReply
  336. 336
    Cacti says:

    @Marcopolo:

    And then let’s get back to the actual work in meatspace of finding great candidates, working to get them elected,

    And watching the party chuck them under the bus on behalf of GOP ratfuckers.

    ReplyReply
  337. 337
    Irony Abounds says:

    Shows you what a deplorable mess this country is in when Franken has to resign over behavior that is significantly less inappropriate than the conduct of the DOTUS and soon to be Senator from Alabama, both of whom will blithely continue on their misogynistic ways. Conyers resignation was necessary; don’t agree that Franken’s was.

    ReplyReply
  338. 338
    efgoldman says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I am ashamed of Democrats for throwing a good senator under the bus without an ethics investigation. The accusers and accusations are sketchy, and not worthy of capital punishment, as is being doled out.
    Disgusted with Democrats, and the women senators leading the charge. Mostly, this has taught me that, while Republicans will protect their own, no matter how awful, Democrats will cut and run and head for the insufficient oxygen of the “higher road.”

    I’ve not been sround much the last few weeks, so it’s possible y’all have hashed this out, but this feels to me like the vapors of Shirley Sherrod and the penumbra of ACORN, at least until there’s a real investigation and report.

    ReplyReply
  339. 339
    TenguPhule says:

    @B.B.A.: And Republicans pick a new target and the process repeats. Then what?

    ReplyReply
  340. 340
    TenguPhule says:

    @efgoldman: Its ACORN all over again.

    Only this time with active Democratic participation.

    ReplyReply
  341. 341
    Cacti says:

    @Mike in DC:

    If voters reject Moore there,

    They won’t.

    ReplyReply
  342. 342
    Marcopolo says:

    @Cacti: Keep working through it :). You’re not there yet.

    ReplyReply
  343. 343
    Schlemazel says:

    @Sab:
    I have to assume you know nothing of MN politics then. How about the power of incumbency, do you know about that?

    ReplyReply
  344. 344
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    I don’t expect Franken’s resignation to affect the outcome, just to put us in a more advantageous position.

    And if we really want to be in the most advantageous position possible, we would run no candidates for office whatsoever.

    ReplyReply
  345. 345
    WaterGirl says:

    @Betty Cracker: Also because we are looking to those women for leadership,and their actions here displayed anything but. Because some of those names are being floated for president in 2020. Chuck Schumer will also get an earful because he’s the fucking majority leader. For the same reason that his awful position on Israel yesterday is worse than if some random guy in the senate had said it. This thing with Franken s a total DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP FAIL

    ReplyReply
  346. 346
    TenguPhule says:

    @Schlemazel:

    How about the power of incumbency, do you know about that?

    Stop bringing reason and logic into this.

    ReplyReply
  347. 347
    WaterGirl says:

    @ruemara: Al could have demanded that they start the investigation, along with our party leadership.

    ReplyReply
  348. 348
    Another Scott says:

    @Schlemazel: TheStateman:

    […]

    But ultimately, Franken, who counts himself as the only professional comedian to have been elected to the United States Senate, left many in his audience disappointed when he told Evan Smith, the Texas Tribune co-founder and CEO who interviewed him, that, no, he does not want to run for president in 2020.

    “I don’t want to be president,” Franken said. “I think the president of the United States should be someone who wants to be president.”

    Franken, who won his first term in the Senate in 2008 by 312 votes and his second term in 2014 with a 10-percent lead over his Republican opponent, said, “I’ve gotten to see the job of president closer up as a senator than I did as a comedian and I like my job now. I like my job now and I want to continue doing that job.”

    “I’m sure we’ll find someone in 2020 who will want to be president and emerge from many candidates and be a great president, but not me,” said Franken, a liberal Democrat.

    Franken is the author of, “Why Not Me?: The Inside Story of the Making and Unmaking of the Franken Presidency,” but that was written in 1999, when Franken was still being funny for a living.

    Franken came to TribFest to talk about his book, “Al Franken: Giant of the Senate” — the title is meant as a mock-pompous act of self-deprecation — in which he deploys the sense of humor that made him one of the original cast members and writers of Saturday Night Live, but which he attempted to keep under wraps during his first term, and then some, in the Senate.

    Franken said that his rival in his first campaign, Republican Sen. Norm Coleman, had deployed the Dehumorizer, which he described as a state-of-art machine that employed the latest Israeli technology to turn Franken’s lifetime of jokes into politically-damaging statements.

    With his defeat of Coleman, the task of dehumorizing Franken’s statements, he said, fell to his staff, who, for example, decided it was best if he did not describe what he characterized as Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia’s “hateful dissent” on the marriage equality decision as “very gay.”

    […]

    FWIW.

    Cheers,
    Scott.

    ReplyReply
  349. 349
    TenguPhule says:

    @different-church-lady:

    WE ARE IN THE LASER SURVEYED GEOGRAPHIC CENTER OF DISASTER AND HAVE BEEN SINCE NOV. 8, 2016.

    And the Democratic Senators are gleefully hammering on the big red button that says “Do not push”.

    ReplyReply
  350. 350
    WarMunchkin says:

    I’m proud of the Democrats for being a party that practices what they preach, so are my friends, some of whom harbored some resentment or confusion, and we will redouble our efforts to vote and volunteer for the brave women who spoke out and challenged the idea that harassers can stay in elected office if they have a D next to their name.

    ReplyReply
  351. 351
    PJ says:

    @Mike in DC: Again, how? And there’s a huge difference between sexually assaulting a minor and documented preying on teenagers on the one hand, and then lying that it never happened, on the one hand, and unsupported allegations of grabbing someone’s ass. I think even voters in Alabama can make that distinction.

    ReplyReply
  352. 352
    bemused says:

    Paul Waldman: When it comes to sex scandals, the politicians who are the most guilty and the least repentant are the ones who survive.

    ReplyReply
  353. 353
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    Maybe someday Democrats will learn to fight Republicans with the same vigor that they fight fellow Democrats.

    But not any time soon.

    ReplyReply
  354. 354
    Arky Vaughan says:

    I am a Minnesotan who voted twice for Franken and would vote for him again. He is a rare Democrat that calls out the RWNJs on their mendacity. They hate him because he is a thorn in their side.
    I see an 8th woman accused him of “grabbing flesh” at her waist. C’mon. We need to change the culture and respect woman but the pendulum has swung too far.
    As a Minnesotan here is my prediction: disagree if you’d like but see if it doesn’t come true
    December 7th (a day that will live in infamy) Franken resigns
    December 12th Roy Moore elected to the Senate in AL. Trump remains president. Franken’s “sins” pale in comparison to those two.
    December: Gov Dayton appoints his LT. Gov Tina Smith to be a caretaker Sen. Yes she may vote Democratic but she would never get Jeffrey Beauregard to perjure himself like Franken did. Neither would Amy (Can’t we all get along) Klobuchar. I like Klobuchar but she is too nice.

    Fall of 2018 Michelle Bachman slithers out from under a rock to run for Senate – so does Tim Pawlenty. The republicans run a sacrificial lamb against Klobuchar who gets no support. However MILIIONs are poured in to support the winner of Pawlenty/Bachman (Pawlenty).
    November 2018 Tim Pawlenty grabs the Senate seat from Minnesota as the Republican take over of MN is now complete.
    I predict the Republican will win the Governor race also as long as like Pawlenty he is not a mouth breather – we love “reasonable” right wingers in our state ( or nut jobs if you live in the 6th district which is filled with anti abortion Catholics – that’s the only reason they voted for crazy Michelle).

    Mark my words

    Yes I understand they had to stop the bleeding otherwise there will more women who claim that Franken touched their waist or made them feel uncomfortable the way he looked at them. Or twenty years ago he bumped them at the supermarket.

    I am also wondering if I am through voting for Democrats – I mean why bother? I’ve always said that supporting Democrats is like taking a cooked noodle to a gun fight.

    ReplyReply
  355. 355
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: No thanks!

    ReplyReply
  356. 356
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    It would be nice if you addressed the argument that I actually made, rather than the one you wished I had made. There’s a fairly large group of women who are swing voters. Motivating them to shift left and turn out for, say, a midterm election is kind of a big deal, as we just saw last month. Having an image as a party which does not tolerate sexual harassment, in contrast to one which clearly does, is highly advantageous in this regard. Period. Full stop. I too would have preferred more due process for Senator Franken, but I can understand the underlying reasoning here.

    ReplyReply
  357. 357
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @WarMunchkin: Good. You can have my spot.

    ReplyReply
  358. 358
    Amir Khalid says:

    @WarMunchkin:
    If you mean Al Franken, you’re exaggerating.

    ReplyReply
  359. 359
    Yoda Dog says:

    @SFAW: Well hell, on the flip side of that coin, everyone else in this thread has thrown their hands up in the air and said “fuck democrats, we’re all fucking done here.” Have they not? You’re absolutely right, our landslide victory in November will mean nothing if we’ve all decided that Al Franken is the hill we’re going to die on.

    ReplyReply
  360. 360
    Cacti says:

    @TenguPhule:

    And the Democratic Senators are gleefully hammering on the big red button that says “Do not push”.

    When the fascists finish hollowing out the Republic, and Democrats are all behind the wire for being enemies of the State. Then they’ll start fighting…

    With each other, about who is the model prisoner.

    ReplyReply
  361. 361
    jay says:

    They wouldn’t ask him to resign if there was a Republican governor in Minnesota. The “High Roaders” are playing politics just as much as anyone else.

    ReplyReply
  362. 362
    TenguPhule says:

    @WarMunchkin: Meanwhile, the majority will look at those Senators and think “What a bunch of treacherous douches”.

    ReplyReply
  363. 363
    SFAW says:

    @Trollhattan:

    only by skilled operatives instead of Roger Stone types. It seems Nixonesque.

    1) I believe Stone worked for Nixon
    2) Why do you seem to think Stone is not skilled? He usually gets whatever scalp(s) he goes after.

    ReplyReply
  364. 364
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Having an image as a party which does not tolerate sexual harassment, in contrast to one which clearly does, is highly advantageous in this regard. Period. Full stop.

    Say that again after a Democratic Senator with a Republican governor becomes the next victim.

    ReplyReply
  365. 365
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @Yoda Dog: With this forced resignation, the Democrats have moved away from being a party of law and due process. I am sick to my bones at this.

    ReplyReply
  366. 366
    Cacti says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    You’re absolutely right, our landslide victory in November will mean nothing if we’ve all decided that Al Franken is the hill we’re going to die on.

    The actions of Dem leadership has thoroughly demoralized those who already do vote and donate time and money for the party, in the hopes of some hypothetical gain with unspecified people.

    And that’s why we always lose.

    ReplyReply
  367. 367
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Corner Stone: Tell me, were did we accuse Franken of being a ignorant, pre-dementia narcissists man child and a traitor? Astonishing as it sounds Trump disgusting behavior around women isn’t what’s he in trouble for.

    ReplyReply
  368. 368
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    When the fascists finish hollowing out the Republic, and Democrats are all behind the wire for being enemies of the State. Then they’ll start fighting…

    With each other, about who is the model prisoner.

    Its not funny. Because its true.

    ReplyReply
  369. 369
    Kathleen says:

    @ruemara: This is the smartest, most helpful comment I’ve read on this whole issue. Thank you.

    ReplyReply
  370. 370
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    You’re assuming facts not in evidence. If there’s fuckery afoot, and the consequences are greater, caution will abound.

    ReplyReply
  371. 371
    VeniceRiley says:

    I’ve always like Al Franken even though he comes off to me as a bit too in love with himself. I’m sure there is a talented Minnesotan who can shine in the seat.

    ReplyReply
  372. 372
    Emma says:

    @WarMunchkin: I am so proud of you. And if the woman turns out to have lied, well, tough luck. For every other woman who tries to bring an accusation.

    ReplyReply
  373. 373
    Citizen Alan says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    Your mistake is in assuming that we will still have a landslide victory. Given the geography and distribution of the Senate seats up next year combined with the fact that we have just put Minnesota in play, I think it’s entirely possible for Trump to have a filibuster-proof majority for the last two years of his first term. During which, with our luck, he’ll get to make one or two Supreme Court nominations.

    ReplyReply
  374. 374
    Ruckus says:

    I don’t want Franklin to resign but it’s also impossible to try to rise above the normal bottom feeders in politics and suggest that the indiscretions of one of ours is better than those of one of theirs. Yes there do seem to be significant differences between many of theirs and ours but aren’t we supposed to be better?

    ReplyReply
  375. 375
    SFAW says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    You’re absolutely right, our landslide victory in November will mean nothing if we’ve all decided that Al Franken is the hill we’re going to die on.

    You know, I’m in my 60s, English is my native language, A large part of my job involves writing clearly and concisely, and yet I have no fucking idea what point you’re trying to make with that sentence.

    As for your first sentence: I guess you see what you want to see. I, on the other hand, see a lot of pissed-off Dem voters — me included — who are pissed at the own-goal of the Dem “braintrust,” because it’s YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE of purity-pony-ism. But except for my comment about thinking for about a quarter-second that I entertained the notion of not voting Dem, and a similar comment from either Immanentize or Schlemazel (sorry kids, don’t remember, and too lazy to look), I don’t see people saying “Fuck it, I’m voting Rethug, or staying home”

    ReplyReply
  376. 376
    AliceBlue says:

    @WarMunchkin:
    Well aren’t you special.

    ReplyReply
  377. 377
    Mike in DC says:

    @PJ: Having a clear position on harassment gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Roy Moore in the Senate.

    ReplyReply
  378. 378
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Knight of Nothing:

    So I just can’t credit the idea that this is purely a rat-fuck by bad actors.

    How do you “call out” an abuse survivor whose PTSD you accidentally triggered by squeezing her waist?

    ReplyReply
  379. 379
    TenguPhule says:

    @hellslittlestangel:

    The only good that can come of this is if Democrats take the gloves off in the next election season.

    There is always another pair of gloves underneath.

    Like Russian dolls, but made of wool from the ears.

    ReplyReply
  380. 380
    SteveNKY says:

    there are no “backsies.”
    the GOP Machine targeted Al Franken for questioning Jeff Sessions.
    the purity ring and zero tolerance crowd “somberly & regretfully” drummed him out.
    perceptions greater than evidence wins the day.
    doesn’t a penitent man always kneel for the executioner?

    ReplyReply
  381. 381
    PJ says:

    @Mike in DC: By swing voters, do you mean all of the white women who voted for Trump?

    ReplyReply
  382. 382
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Having an image as a party which does not tolerate sexual harassment, in contrast to one which clearly does, is highly advantageous in this regard. Period. Full stop.

    Just as it was in 2016, what with all the white women voting for Hillary, pushing her over the top so spectacularly.

    ETA: Darn you to heck, PJ!

    ReplyReply
  383. 383
    Yoda Dog says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism: Well I still need your help fighting the GOP. I don’t know what to tell you, I’m disappointed too, but I only have so much room for sickness in my heart and the traitors on the other side fill and refill that reservoir every single day.

    ReplyReply
  384. 384
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    If there’s fuckery afoot, and the consequences are greater, caution will abound.

    Franken is proof you are not only wrong, but really fucking wrong.

    ReplyReply
  385. 385
    Kathleen says:

    @different-church-lady: I was on a Twitter thread where we wrote Mainslime Media headlines about her death (prompted by comment that media will never stop hectoring her even in death.)

    ReplyReply
  386. 386
    Mnemosyne says:

    @WarMunchkin:

    Make sure not to touch the waist of any of the women in your group when you pose for pictures with them. That is now sexual assault worthy of being drummed out of the group.

    ReplyReply
  387. 387
    Kathleen says:

    @different-church-lady: I for one demand that the Clinton grandchildren resign

    ReplyReply
  388. 388
    zhena gogolia says:

    @bluefish:

    That’s about where I am. Why does Trump get a pass? Why? Why? Why?

    ReplyReply
  389. 389
    Emma says:

    @Mike in DC: you are joking. Most people I know who are not already committed republicans do not make “the man is the party” judgments. If THEIR candidate looks ckean they won’t reject him just because he has an r after his name.

    ReplyReply
  390. 390
    Mike in DC says:

    @PJ: No, all the ones who showed up to flip the House of Delegates in Virginia and put Ralph Northam in the governor’s office.

    ReplyReply
  391. 391
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Having a clear position on harassment gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Roy Moore in the Senate.

    2016: Having a clear position on jobs and the economy will give Hillary Clinton an advantage over Donald Trump.

    2010: Having a clear position on Health Insurance will give Democrats an advantage over Teabagging Republicans.

    ReplyReply
  392. 392
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Mike in DC:

    This is the most I can hope for. But my supply of hope is running dry.

    ReplyReply
  393. 393
    Cacti says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Having a clear position on harassment gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Roy Moore in the Senate.

    If voters really and truly cared about virtue signaling, why do Republicans control all 3 branches of the Federal government, a large majority of Governorships, and a large majority of State legislatures?

    Your hypothesis of advantage gained is without support in a real world setting.

    ReplyReply
  394. 394
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Having a clear position on harassment gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Roy Moore in the Senate.

    Having a clear position on Anthropogenic Global Warming gives us an advantage with persuadable voters going forward, particularly those who might be repulsed by the thought of Donald Trump in the Oval Office.

    And frankly, fixing AGW is a fuckload more important than purity on sexual harassment.

    ReplyReply
  395. 395

    @Mnemosyne: if it’s bad actors behind it, I expect Franken would call them out.

    ReplyReply
  396. 396
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Jack the Second:

    I think Conyers resigned so quickly because he knew he was guilty, or guilty enough, that any prolonged spotlight would not have done him any good.

    Conyers issue is he had a settlement for harassment against him. So, there’s been some kind of due processes.

    ReplyReply
  397. 397
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Knight of Nothing:

    How does he “call out” anonymous accusers?

    Does it really not bother you at all that we don’t know who his accusers are?

    ReplyReply
  398. 398
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    If there is a political cost to being a creep, even for Republicans, then the housecleaning on the D side pays off. Even if Moore wins, it’s an opportunity to shift women voters over/back to the Democrats.

    And if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride. And if I were 6-foot-8, with great hand-eye coordination, great dribbling and passing, speed, quickness, and could hit 3-pointers from 50 feet all day, then I might have been a pro basketball player

    ReplyReply
  399. 399
    Elizabelle says:

    @efgoldman: Have missed you, efg, and so glad you are back.

    Yes. Echoes of ACORN and Shirley Sherrod, with stench of ratfucking. Wonder if Roger Stone is three sheets in celebration at this hour. Tough senator. Easy pickings. And he got the wimmens to do his dirty work, all around.

    ReplyReply
  400. 400
    PJ says:

    @Mike in DC: Virginia has voted Democratic in the last three presidential elections. Getting rid of Al Franken is not going to change the fortunes of the party there, nor, I predict, with voters anywhere else in the country, except in Minnesota, where there is a decent chance his seat will go to a Republican in the next election.

    Ultimately, I think we disagree as to whether voters care which party has the “moral high ground”; you think it matters, I think voters don’t give a rat’s ass. If they did, we wouldn’t have a Republican Congress or President.

    ETA: I see that Cacti beat me to this point.

    ReplyReply
  401. 401
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    No, all the ones who showed up to flip the House of Delegates in Virginia and put Ralph Northam in the governor’s office.

    No doubt because sexual harassment issues and debates were the key determinant in that race.

    ReplyReply
  402. 402
    Schlemazel says:

    @Arky Vaughan:
    I am a minnesotan who worked my first campaign 59 years ago (Joe Karth 4CD) and been a regular ever since (save for my time in FLA). You described what I expect given what I know about the State perfectly. The Dems have nobody with Pawlenty’s name recognition that has ever won a statewide election. Despite Timmy screwing the state over big time he is still popular with the rural half of the state. He is worse that Coleman who was as scummy a corporate whore as we have ever sent to the Senate.

    ReplyReply
  403. 403
    Cacti says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Conyers issue is he had a settlement for harassment against him. So, there’s been some kind of due processes.

    While Blake Farenthold paid out a larger settlement for the same reason, isn’t resigning, and isn’t retiring at the end of his term.

    ReplyReply
  404. 404
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Cacti:

    You’re easily demoralized.

    We’re in a fight to save the U.S. of A. I’m not giving up because of this.

    ReplyReply
  405. 405
    Kathleen says:

    @joel hanes: And the Russians.

    ReplyReply
  406. 406
    PJ says:

    @Knight of Nothing: How can he find out if there are bad actors behind it, since there will no longer be any investigation?

    ReplyReply
  407. 407
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yoda Dog: Get ready to eat a ton of crow alongside Betty Cracker and ruemara and everyone else who turned on Al Franken.

    We’re on a course to lose 2018 and 2020. And the blame is going to be shared by Republican ratfuckers and the people who kept falling for the ratfucking.

    ReplyReply
  408. 408
    TenguPhule says:

    @Cacti:

    While Blake Farenthold paid out a larger settlement for the same reason, isn’t resigning, and isn’t retiring at the end of his term.

    Because the only winning move is to actually stay in office.

    ReplyReply
  409. 409
    Mnemosyne says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Uh, ruemara never turned on Al Franken. Quite the contrary. Re-read what she actually said and then apologize to her.

    ReplyReply
  410. 410
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Will you fucking stop already? Moore was somewhat beyond “sexual harassment,” and his (possible) loss will not be because Franken’s resignation purportedly gave the Dems the “moral high ground,” which translated into Jones votes.

    ReplyReply
  411. 411
    MuckJagger says:

    @Arky Vaughan: I think it’s more likely Norm Coleman would run. Not as crazy as Bachmann, but definitely a vote the R’s would *always* be able to count on no matter how crazy the bill.

    ReplyReply
  412. 412
    Schlemazel says:

    @VeniceRiley:
    Go ahead and name one. Name one that has won statewide office & has name recognition that has the wherewithal to run against Pawlenty (the Koch whore) and the money they will pour into the fabulous opportunity we have given them. I’ll wait, I am still waiting since I asked this question earlier when someone posted that shit. The 3 commenters I know are from MN have all said the same thing but since you are so damn sure please point the savior out because I will sign up for their campaign today

    ReplyReply
  413. 413
    bluefish says:

    @@Cacti: Isn’t that we always buy a bit extra?

    ReplyReply
  414. 414
    Mike in DC says:

    @SFAW:
    What level of sexual harassment involving a sitting Senator should be acceptable to the Party, going forward? How politically effective do you think Sen. Franken was likely to be, versus the political costs of retention?

    ReplyReply
  415. 415
    Schlemazel says:

    @Ruckus:
    I’ll point out one big difference – Als accusers are either known liars with suspect motive or wildly inflated (“HE PUT HIS ARM AROUND MY WAIST WHILE WE TOOK A PICTURE!!!!!!!”)

    ReplyReply
  416. 416
    Yoda Dog says:

    @TenguPhule: Yea, no, we’re going to crush them in 2018. I won’t forget your comments here today either, sir.

    ReplyReply
  417. 417
    bluefish says:

    @Cacti: We don’t always lose.

    ReplyReply
  418. 418
    Schlemazel says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    If she is so damaged she can’t take a little side hug during a photo op perhas she should never ever have a picture taken with another person beside he.

    ReplyReply
  419. 419
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: I didn’t “turn on Al Franken,” you hysterical nitwit.* If you can’t make any more sense than that, kindly keep my fake name out of your mouth.

    *This is me abiding by the spirit of my plea up top to elevate the discussion. Otherwise, I’d encourage you to eat a bag of Sriracha-spiced dicks.

    ReplyReply
  420. 420
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Just fucking stop. You’ve migrated from demonstrating your naivete, to being an asshole. “What level of sexual harassment?” I don’t know, why don’t we have a fucking ethics investigation to see how much there was?

    No, let’s not, because we have the moral high ground now, so let’s quit while we’re ahead, because doing so will translate into a generation-long shift to Dem control of all three branches of Government.

    What level of naivete do you need to demonstrate for everyone here decide you’re a moron? Hmm, opinions differ.

    ReplyReply
  421. 421
    Cacti says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    We’re in a fight to save the U.S. of A.

    Assumes facts not in evidence.

    I’ve seen no indication that elected Democrats are in a fight with anyone but their own.

    ReplyReply
  422. 422
    Schlemazel says:

    @Schlemazel:
    Norm has stage 3 throat cancer. It is bad enough that he is using experimental therapy from Mayo Clinic. He is done, at least for politics. I have talked to him a couple time in the last year & he is not well at all.

    ReplyReply
  423. 423
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @No Drought No More:

    The single redeeming aspect of a Franken resignation will be to provide a study in contrasts between the two party’s.

    Except that cuts both ways, a male voter might see Franken getting fired for things he did in a previous job and just being assumed guilty with no do process as very threatening. Then again most voters seem to forget after six months.

    ReplyReply
  424. 424
    Scotian says:

    @Cacti:

    If voters really and truly cared about virtue signaling, why do Republicans control all 3 branches of the Federal government, a large majority of Governorships, and a large majority of State legislatures?

    Your hypothesis of advantage gained is without support in a real world setting.

    And here you have a major source of my frustration. When it is this obvious to a Canadian in Halifax and has been now for many many years, WTF is the excuse of those whose party this is, this nation it is, and the fact that what your nation does has global consequences purely because of its inherent power, be it social, cultural, economic, or military! I saw back in the flipping 90s with Clinton and Gingrich what was coming, and how bad this could get, so please, all you political masterminds who think that virtue signalling is the great hope and way back for the Dems, please, answer this question:

    ON WHAT EVIDENCE???

    You know, that thing called factually based evidence, and not faith hope and good feelings stuff that seems to be dominating this line of reasoning.

    Insanity is defined by many as repeating the same action expecting a different result. I hear that all the time from purity ponies and their boosters when applied to the Democratic Party establishment and machinery and how it is only their way to save everything (despite a remarkable lack of political success in such), how’s about they try asking.themselves that question and trying to answer it for a change. How about trying to not purifying all the time and maybe start nuancing again.

    This is getting very worrisome for those of us forced to watch and live with the results yet have zero say in it.

    ReplyReply
  425. 425
    Yoda Dog says:

    @Cacti:

    I’ve seen no indication that elected Democrats are in a fight with anyone but their own.

    Yea, I forgot how the dems all voted for Gorsuch and the Obamacare repeal and the tax scam. Good call.

    ReplyReply
  426. 426
    cleek says:

    @The Moar You Know:
    wasn’t much of a problem to do (haven’t asked Alain to make it live, yet)

    but, if you are ever just dying to know, hit F12 on your keyboard, find the “Console” tab, type “localStorage”. it will spit out whatever your browser is keeping in local storage. then look for “BJAutoPieNamesList”. that’s the full list. should work in FF, Chrome and Edge.

    ReplyReply
  427. 427
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne:

    It’s a loss that someone who worked so hard to shift over into a new career that he excelled in, has been run right out. But, that’s politics. You don’t give anyone the gun to aim at you. He’s a better soldier than most and I expect this to be a fall on your sword resignation. I think he should clear his name, but that’s up to him.
    History marches on. Having faves and heroes is a fools game. They’re people. They will disappoint you at some point. You either deal with it or fall apart. I hate to be that cold on it, but I am not here to die on the hill of Al Franken. He has money, fame and to quote Rod Morrow, “No one is ever really canceled”. He’ll be back on the world’s stage in a year or so, scarred but not gone. The real work is done on the ground by regular folks. So you don’t need Franken. You just need to ensure people understand their government is there responsibility. And leave the superhero fanboyism once you get past puberty.

    Fine, let me rephrase.

    Abandoned at the first sign of the enemy because he’s expendable.

    ReplyReply
  428. 428
    SFAW says:

    @Schlemazel:

    Go ahead and name one.

    Harold Stassen? If I lived in MN, I’d vote for him.

    ReplyReply
  429. 429
    Cacti says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Except that cuts both ways, a male voter might see Franken getting fired for things he did in a previous job and just being assumed guilty with no do process as very threatening.

    Or a male voter who hears about Tina Dupuy saying she was “groped” by Franken because he put his arm around her in a picture, and doesn’t even like her husband putting his arm around her.

    Hmmm…what could be done with that? Right: “Democrats want to make it illegal to put your arm around your wife.”

    ReplyReply
  430. 430
    Schlemazel says:

    @SFAW:
    My hope is that the former St. Paul Mayor, whose name is also Colman, will run. He has not shown a great instinct for the job but enough of the boobs out in the sticks may mistake him for the previous StP Mayor Coleman & vote for him by accident.

    ReplyReply
  431. 431
    CindyH says:

    @AliceBlue: exactly how I feel – I could hardly believe that this country elected trump, and now OUR OWN PARTY has pushed a valuable public servant out of office without even a chance to proceed with an investiagation. There is no side for me to be on now.

    ReplyReply
  432. 432
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    The point is, move on and build up a reserve of good candidates and make it clear to them that they’re having to do things the black way – twice as good for half the reward.

    This was part of the comment you thought was good.

    The sentiment to abandon our own engineers no expectation of loyalty in return.

    If you want more and better Democrats, this is not the way to do it.

    ReplyReply
  433. 433
    Mike in DC says:

    @SFAW:
    Actually, I called for due process and proportionality when this all started, and there was a single allegation. There are now 8 or 9, by last count, including at least two additional allegations of forcible kissing, during a period of heightened attention and sensitivity to the issue.
    The ethics committee investigation, as I understand it, is a secretive, nonpublic, murky process of uncertain length, and it is by no means certain that the Senator would come out of the process fully exonerated. While I would still prefer due process, unless there’s a date certain to the end of that process, at some point political considerations do rear their ugly head. A senator under a dark cloud is a less effective public servant. That cloud, in this case, extends to the rest of his colleagues. At some point, you have to expect that the impulse to pull the plug will be overwhelming.
    As to my purported idiocy, I don’t know much Latin, but I do know what argumentum ad hominem means, and I’ll thank you to keep it civil.

    ReplyReply
  434. 434
    PJ says:

    @SFAW: Hell, why not Hubert Humphrey? He’s got a big name nationwide . . .

    But seriously, Walter Mondale is still alive . . .

    ReplyReply
  435. 435
    Brachiator says:

    @Mike in DC:

    What level of sexual harassment involving a sitting Senator should be acceptable to the Party, going forward?

    Good question. It’s open to debate. Are all levels of bothering equal, and should a forced resignation be the only remedy?

    Hint: zero tolerance is for fools and moral scolds.

    How politically effective do you think Sen. Franken was likely to be, versus the political costs of retention?

    Another good question. Could he have been rehabilitated?

    Of course, now we will never know.

    ReplyReply
  436. 436
    TenguPhule says:

    @Scotian:

    You know, that thing called factually based evidence, and not faith hope and good feelings stuff that seems to be dominating this line of reasoning.

    Don’t be silly, Prayers and good thoughts are cheaper.

    ReplyReply
  437. 437
    CindyH says:

    @ruemara: but the point is that resigning BEFORE the investigation stops the investigation from happening. period. So a valuable opportunity to have a public discussion that might air out just what harassment can look like has been lost.

    ReplyReply
  438. 438
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    There are now 8 or 9, by last count, including at least two additional allegations of forcible kissing, during a period of heightened attention and sensitivity to the issue.

    8.

    3 confirmed Republicans, one of whom is a professional ratfucker at FOX. None of their stories matches available evidence.

    3 anon bullshit accusers with stories that don’t stand up either.

    1 anon accuser claiming to be a Democratic staffer. Politico source so no telling how well she was vetted before they ran it.

    1 completely bullshit accusation about him touching a WAIST during a photo request together that she initiated.

    Quantity, but no quality to it.

    ReplyReply
  439. 439
    Mnemosyne says:

    @TenguPhule:

    She’s stating reality: the Democrats in the Senate left Franken twisting in the wind and he had no choice but to resign. That doesn’t mean she likes it or agrees with it or thinks the allegations are true.

    ReplyReply
  440. 440
    Mike in DC says:

    @CindyH: I think it’s a valid point, and at the same time the problem is the lack of transparency of the ethics committee process. If there had been a hearing scheduled and a projected end date, maybe they could have held off until then.

    ReplyReply
  441. 441
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: President Obama understood the truth in what Ruemara said and lived by it. He was a pretty damn good Democrat too. But the point is, acknowledging reality and urging folks to move forward isn’t the same as “turning on Al Franken.” And it makes a helluva lot more sense than your hysterics and doomsaying.

    ReplyReply
  442. 442
    Tehanu says:

    @CindyH:

    @Arclite: I don’t think he should resign until after an ethics investigation – the public discussion of this issue needs to happen and it needs to cover the most minor offenses to the most egregious. If he resigns before an ethics investigation, it won’t happen and we’ll stay where we are with kangaroo courts on the internet.

    “Kangaroo courts” is exactly what worries me, along with the general atmosphere of sanctimonious prudery. Heywood G at Hammer of the Blogs (link: http://hammeroftheblogs.blogsp.....nball.html) had a good thing this morning:

    The Republicans strung this out masterfully, first shaming Democrats into getting rid of whatever cash Harvey Weinstein sent their way, then in making false equivalences between Franken playing grab-ass with middle-aged women and Roy Moore chasing teenage poon in his thirties. … [Republicans] protect their perverts without fail, and they will never apologize for it. They understand intrinsically that voters respond most viscerally to someone — right or wrong, that cannot be over-emphasized — with balls, much more than on policy specifics, or being “honest,” or any of that horseshit. … right now, all most people — Democratic voters included — see is a circular firing squad that thinks their virtue-signaling actually means anything. We’ll see how much it means once the Republicans and Russians perfect how to weaponize the Dems’ instinct to always believe every accuser before any real information is known or verified. [My emphasis]

    @Elizabelle:

    Voters want a party that will fight for them. This is not it.

    Yes!

    ReplyReply
  443. 443
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Franken: “my accusers are lying!”
    Moore: “Hey, mine too!”
    Trump: “me too!”

    Do you see the problem? Are those distinctions going to be clear enough to persuade the public and the media?

    ReplyReply
  444. 444
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mnemosyne: That’s not stating reality, that’s stating her personal philosophy of “oh well, he was expendable”. She’s not willing to stand up for him because she thinks its a hill not worth dying on.

    ReplyReply
  445. 445
    Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism says:

    @CindyH: Exactly this. We had an opportunity to establish investigation as an appropriate response to allegations. We failed, apparently because Gillibrand was tired of being asked about it.

    Franken might well have resigned after an investigation, but this has never been about keeping Franken at all costs. It’s about being the adults in the room instead of running around like scared toddlers.

    Proceed with your moral panic, everyone.

    ReplyReply
  446. 446
    TenguPhule says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    But the point is, acknowledging reality and urging folks to move forward isn’t the same as “turning on Al Franken.”

    He needed our support. What he got was abandoned by rank and file.

    You may not see that as turning on one of our own, but I do.

    This will bite us in the ass hard come election time. We are going to get none of the credit and all of the blame as a party.

    ReplyReply
  447. 447
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    As to my purported idiocy, I don’t know much Latin, but I do know what argumentum ad hominem means, and I’ll thank you to keep it civil.

    Whatever. I’ll try to be on my best behavior — whatever that is, since I’m not known for it — if you cut the crap with the bullshit “How much is too much?” hypotheticals. I’m still waiting to see/hear an actual list of things he actually did, other than the Tweeden thing. The Dupuy/Depuy thing is, as the saying goes, a nothingburger.

    But, frankly, boorish behavior, while annoying, is not a capital offense — unless one is a Dem, apparently. With Rethugs, it’s a feature, not a bug.

    ETA: For what it’s worth: an ad hominem “argument” is made without addressing the merits of the target’s argument. You, on the other hand, were displaying the “value” of your “argument” well before I commented on your, um, capabilities.

    ReplyReply
  448. 448
    Cacti says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    We failed, apparently because Gillibrand was tired of being asked about it.

    Gillibrand has definitely shown her true colors of late. Crapping on the Clintons now that she doesn’t need them politically, and throwing a fellow Democratic Senator under the bus because he’d become temporarily inconvenient to her.

    I’ll never vote for a ticket with that backstabber’s name on it.

    It would make me smile if Hillary came out of retirement just to primary her ass.

    ReplyReply
  449. 449
    Mike in DC says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    At minimum, I think reform of the Ethics committee process is warranted. Prompt, time limited, transparent and fair should be the goal.

    ReplyReply
  450. 450
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Do you see the problem?

    Yes, that you’re either extremely dense or deliberately ignoring the facts on the ground.

    Moore is denying it flat. The evidence and third party references are showing he’s lying.

    Trump is literally denying a tape of himself admitting his actions.

    Franken has literally only one photo against him that doesn’t back up his accuser’s claims.

    If you can’t tell the difference, you’re not reachable in the first place.

    ReplyReply
  451. 451
    SFAW says:

    @PJ:

    Hell, why not Hubert Humphrey?

    Him, too. (I’m embarrassed that I forgot him.)

    ReplyReply
  452. 452
    SFAW says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Yes, that you’re either extremely dense or deliberately ignoring the facts on the ground.

    Ad hominem! Ad hominem!

    At least, according to the understanding of some persons.

    ReplyReply
  453. 453
    patroclus says:

    @Mike in DC: Really?? Please describe in detail your problem with the ethics investigation into Senator Franken. I’m guessing you can’t because it never occurred. The goal should be to have an investigation – criticism and reform could happen afterwards or during its tenure. Instead, the overwhelming impulse to form a lynch mob prevailed. And because there was never an investigation that could be criticized, we will never know what really happened. So much for your initial call for due process.

    ReplyReply
  454. 454
    Mike in DC says:

    @SFAW: 3 allegations of forcible kissing. 4 or 5 allegations of butt grabbing during photos. The former are obviously more serious. Shoving your tongue in someone’s mouth is a bit more than boorish.
    I think part of the problem with waiting for the ethics committee investigation was this:
    “The ethics committee is going to look into this.”
    “Great! When do they start?”
    “I don’t know.”
    “How long will it take?”
    “I don’t know. ”
    “Will they come to a definite conclusion?”
    “Maybe, maybe not.”
    “If they do, what happens next?”
    “Not sure. Might be censured, might be expelled, might be exonerated. But they often can’t agree.”

    Yeah…can we stipulate to that being sub-optimal in the he world of politics and public accountability?
    The more the allegations mounted, the more at risk his position became.

    ReplyReply
  455. 455
    Yoda Dog says:

    @TenguPhule: Noone is going to be talking about Al Franken next november, including you. That might not have been the case if we we were “winning” more by putting Franken’s entire adult past under a microscope for an extremely partisan senate hearing throughout all of next year. That’s a horrible fucking idea, is what that is.

    ReplyReply
  456. 456
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    3 allegations of forcible kissing. 4 or 5 allegations of butt grabbing during photos.

    What part of Republicans and anon accusations are you having a hard time comprehending?

    Is the concept of women who lie really that hard to grasp?

    ReplyReply
  457. 457
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    Noone is going to be talking about Al Franken next november, including you.

    Keep whistling as you dig into the Indian Graveyard.

    I will keep the crow nice and hot for you.

    ReplyReply
  458. 458
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    What happened to “believe women”?

    Is it now “believe women,but these b—-s are lying?”

    ReplyReply
  459. 459
    Betty Cracker says:

    @TenguPhule: Well, keep predicting DOOM in every thread and senselessly attacking other commenters, then. That’ll be super helpful!

    @Cacti: Even if she’s the nominee in 2020 against Trump? If so, you’re no better than Susan Sarandon.

    ReplyReply
  460. 460
    Yoda Dog says:

    @TenguPhule: Really? If you’re right and we lose badly next year, do you have any idea what an utter and total disaster that would be for this country? For democracy? YOU DO! I know you know.

    And you’re going to come back and feed me some crow then? Grow up.

    ReplyReply
  461. 461
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Sister Rail Gun of Warm Humanitarianism:

    Franken might well have resigned after an investigation, but this has never been about keeping Franken at all costs. It’s about being the adults in the room instead of running around like scared toddlers.

    Proceed with your moral panic, everyone.

    Sadly, this. Democrats have now fulfilled every stereotype about themselves by declaring that waist-grabbing and molesting 14-year-olds is the same thing. God help us all.

    ReplyReply
  462. 462
    patroclus says:

    @Mike in DC: Huh? Should all due process be suspended in civil and criminal cases because we don’t know how long they will take??!! Or what the outcome will be?? Should Tawana Brawley have just been believed because she made multiple allegations??!! Your attempt to justify a lynch mob is not very convincing.

    ReplyReply
  463. 463
    Cacti says:

    @Mike in DC:

    What happened to “believe women”?

    It’s a simplistic statement whose logical endpoint is a presumption of guilt against any man accused, which also happens to be patently unconstitutional.

    ReplyReply
  464. 464
    Medicine Man says:

    If I were Roger Stone, I would work hard on getting Leeann Tweeden some lucrative appearances in wingnut media. Two weeks before the mid-terms. Take a real victory lap.

    It would not be too hard to create the impression that accusations of the sort Tweeden leveled are mostly fabricated to attack successful men and to imply that Dems are fine with people being considered guilty until proven innocent.

    It is just depressing all around.

    ReplyReply
  465. 465
    Tata says:

    Welp, the ratf*ckers win and the Dems lose. Again.

    ReplyReply
  466. 466
    Mnemosyne says:

    @TenguPhule:

    That’s not stating reality, that’s stating her personal philosophy of “oh well, he was expendable”.

    No, that’s stating her personal philosophy as a Black woman that she’s well used to getting screwed by purported “allies” who decide she’s expendable but has to keep working towards justice anyway. That’s why she compared Franken to Obama. This shit is not fair, but there’s no opportunity to take your toys and go home for minorities and women just because something unfair happened.

    ReplyReply
  467. 467
    Cacti says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Even if she’s the nominee in 2020 against Trump? If so, you’re no better than Susan Sarandon.

    She won’t be.

    ReplyReply
  468. 468
    patroclus says:

    @TenguPhule: Your constant tendency to personally attack other BJ posters is not productive. Calm down. Your presence on every single thread has made BJ non-enjoyable.

    ReplyReply
  469. 469
    Tehanu says:

    @Mike in DC:

    Three allegations … 4 or 5 allegations …

    You and several other commenters keep going on and on about the “moral high ground.” What moral high ground is there in forcing a resignation based on un-investigated, unproved allegations? How is that standing up for the rule of law and due process and the Constitution? Oh, wait, it’s “sub-optimal in the he world of politics” to wait for an investigation, so that makes blowing off due process okay, and that gives us the moral high ground? Much as you’d obviously like to, you can’t have it both ways.

    ReplyReply
  470. 470
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    No one is going to be talking about Al Franken next november, including you.

    You’re kidding, right? Franken is going to show up in every Republican mailing in Minnesota In 2018 as “Democrat sexual predator Al Franken.”

    The Jews will not replace us crowd is going to have a field day with this shit forever.

    ReplyReply
  471. 471
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    What happened to “believe women”?

    When the evidence is not there, I don’t believe the women with an obvious political agenda.

    But then again, I’m not an idiot.

    ReplyReply
  472. 472
    Mike in DC says:

    @patroclus:
    The ethics committee investigation, as constituted, is a secretive process with zero transparency. That’s a big problem when it comes to issues like this. Lacking a definitive timetable is also problematic.

    ReplyReply
  473. 473
    Cacti says:

    @patroclus:

    Huh? Should all due process be suspended in civil and criminal cases because we don’t know how long they will take??!! Or what the outcome will be?? Should Tawana Brawley have just been believed because she made multiple allegations??!! Your attempt to justify a lynch mob is not very convincing.

    Or the time when D.A. Mike Nifong tried to withhold exculpatory DNA evidence in the Duke Lacrosse case?

    I guess he thought “all women should be believed” despite what the evidence told him.

    ReplyReply
  474. 474
    AliceBlue says:

    @Mike in DC:

    As a commenter above stated, believing women means (1) taking their accusations seriously and then thoroughly investigating them (which did not happen here) and (2) women’s’ accusations should not automatically turn into verdicts.

    ReplyReply
  475. 475
    Mike in DC says:

    @Tehanu:
    The allegations against Trump and Moore are also untested in courts of law or investigative committees, but the demand for consequences nonetheless persists.

    ReplyReply
  476. 476
    TenguPhule says:

    @Yoda Dog:

    If you’re right and we lose badly next year, do you have any idea what an utter and total disaster that would be for this country? For democracy? YOU DO! I know you know.

    And you’re going to come back and feed me some crow then? Grow up.

    I fully expect you to blame me for our loss at that time. Because I didn’t pray and clap hard enough to revive TInkerbell.

    ReplyReply
  477. 477
    rikyrah says:

    @Elizabelle:

    I am ashamed of Democrats for throwing a good senator under the bus without an ethics investigation. The accusers and accusations are sketchy, and not worthy of capital punishment, as is being doled out.

    ICAM

    ReplyReply
  478. 478
    Mike in DC says:

    @AliceBlue: Ad hominem bingo.

    But “believe women” is the message of the day, and “these particular women are lying” completely undermines that message.

    ReplyReply
  479. 479
    TenguPhule says:

    @patroclus: I’m upset. Really upset. I’m probably taking some of this out on people I shouldn’t. But in my defense, I plead extreme provocation from certain other parties.

    ReplyReply
  480. 480
    Cacti says:

    @Mike in DC:

    But “believe women” is the message of the day, and “these particular women are lying” completely undermines that message.

    Which of the following is black letter Constitutional law:

    A. “Due process”
    B. “Believe women”

    ReplyReply
  481. 481
    rikyrah says:

    @Elizabelle:

    @Cheryl Rofer: I believe the “final” accuser is Tina Dupuy in The Atlantic. I’ve read about half of the article, and so far there is no there there. It’s two squeezes on the waist during a photo.

    That article was a piece of shyt.

    ReplyReply
  482. 482
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    But “believe women” is the message of the day, and “these particular women are lying” completely undermines that message.

    Fuck the message. The message is corrupted. The message is an ex-message.

    #metoo is now a fucking weapon. And we’ve just unilaterally disarmed.

    ReplyReply
  483. 483
    TenguPhule says:

    @rikyrah:

    That article was a piece of shyt.

    Take that back! Apologize to good honest shit everywhere!

    ReplyReply
  484. 484
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Mike in DC:

    But “believe women” is the message of the day, and “these particular women are lying” completely undermines that message.

    Unlike Trump and Moore we have no idea who the majority of Franken’s accusers are and, once we do get more details, their accusations turn out to be less than advertised. The woman whose blaring headline in the Atlantic said she was “groped” by Franken turned out to be someone who had her waist squeezed during a photo. Not her ass or her breast — her waist.

    And for that, he was forced to summarily resign.

    And you have just endorsed the view that squeezing someone’s waist during a photo op is just as bad — if not worse — than molesting a 14-year-old.

    ReplyReply
  485. 485
    Skepticat says:

    @No Drought No More:

    The single redeeming aspect of a Franken resignation will be to provide a study in contrasts between the two party’s.

    This may be the single worst aspect. Democrats in general seem to want to do the right, pure thing even though paying high personal and professional costs, thereby leaving the field (and control) to Repugnicants who seem to have no qualms about anyfreakingthing—which hurts all of us. The Rs go low—but we go lower because we grovel. There are elements of scale here. I much prefer someone who might be a minor (former) boor to the hypocrites who are real rapists (of our country, and perhaps other people) and killers (of our economy), who unabashedly brag about assaulting women or are pedophiles. This has created a template for the next minor infraction, or perception thereof, to bring the death penalty. I wish he’d stayed and fought; I hope only that he’ll fight from the private sector. I am inutterably depressed.

    ReplyReply
  486. 486
    patroclus says:

    @Mike in DC: I completely disagree. The ethics process has worked on numerous occasions, with adequate transparency and due process. Packwood, Frank, Gingrich, Wright and many others are good examples. You are trying to justify doing away with the entire process and you are citing no concrete examples, because you have none, certainly not in the case of Franken. Joining a lynch mob is not in keeping with American values; neither is dispensing with the will of the voters.

    ReplyReply
  487. 487
    eemom says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Jayzus, where did all these “civility” trolls come from? Am I on the wrong blog?

    I think yer doing fine, and not just because I’ve agreed with you pretty constantly over these last sickening days.

    ReplyReply
  488. 488
    Mike in DC says:

    @Mnemosyne:
    No, I haven’t. I’ve endorsed the view that clarity beats nuance, politically speaking. This was the worst time for these allegations to come out, and it severely limited the viable options for both Franken and his colleagues. Part of politics is making tough calls. Let’s say they got this one wrong. It’s really not hard to see why they made the play they did.

    ReplyReply
  489. 489
    JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo says:

    @amygdala: colleen hanabusa, a member of the House, is the one running.

    ReplyReply
  490. 490
    notoriousJRT says:

    @Elizabelle: Baby, bathwater. I have thought so since the beginning. I will call my lady senators Murray and Cantwell to say so. Gillibrand’s stock had dropped in my eyes.

    ReplyReply
  491. 491
    Mike in DC says:

    @patroclus:
    I’m arguing that the process needs to be expedited and more transparent, if we’re going to avoid instant summary judgment in the future. The public has to see the process and trust that process. A vague sense that “something will happen, someday” is insufficient.
    It took years to get rid of Packwood.

    ReplyReply
  492. 492
    JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo says:

    @Schlemazel: Minnesota is one of the few states where every statewide elected official is a Dem. I wouldn’t assume a GOP win.

    ReplyReply
  493. 493
    Tehanu says:

    @Mike in DC:

    The allegations against Trump and Moore are also untested in courts of law or investigative committees, but the demand for consequences nonetheless persists.

    Yeah, at least by me — the consequences being investigation and proof under the due process standards set by the fkg Constitution, Mike. That’s what happened in Watergate, but perhaps you’re too young to remember that (though that’s no excuse; read a book). Nixon didn’t resign when the first “allegations” were published, and though I’ve hated Nixon all my life, and he was guilty as hell, he shouldn’t have resigned then, because allegations are not proof. He resigned when Congress held lengthy hearings that transformed the allegations to charges based on evidence and a resolution to impeach him.

    ReplyReply
  494. 494
    eemom says:

    Late to the thread, obvs, but I have this to say. If Gillibrand et al had not pulled that shitshow yesterday, the following two PRODUCTIVE things could BOTH have happened: (1) the allegations against Franken could have been investigated, and (2) little things like the republicans’ plan to kill us all with the tax monstrosity, the looming government shutdown, and Dump’s trying to bring on armageddon in the ME might be getting a bit of attention today instead of this fucking 24/7 circular firing squad.

    ReplyReply
  495. 495
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Brachiator: Now, we don’t. I’m done with defending Democrats. Hell, at this point, I may be done with being a Democrat. We are dumber than dirt. We claim “the high moral ground”, while Republicans are winning. And laughing at us.

    ReplyReply
  496. 496
    lol chikinburd says:

    Steaming to another TBogg on the strength of the same half-dozen people posting over and over and over and over and over and over again.

    Sorry I can’t play—I have a shrink appointment and a job—but just know that the effect on everyone else is to convince them “Fuck this place; whatever I wanted to ask isn’t worth taking this shit from these people”. And to reinforce negativity about the Democratic brand; that’s important too. Is Democratic politics a shitshow? Well, if you insist and insist and insist and insist and insist and insist.

    To anyone replying, my answer is probably going to be “The feeling is mutual”. (And I know this post “doesn’t help”, but “helping” doesn’t seem to be on today’s menu.)

    ReplyReply
  497. 497
    patroclus says:

    @Mike in DC: Once again, I disagree. Due process investigations should be thorough – not “expedited.” That is the essence of justice and the rule of law. Some cases and controversies take years, but better results result from that and the process is respected.

    ReplyReply
  498. 498
    Yoda Dog says:

    @TenguPhule: And you are basing that assumption on the JACK-SHIT you know about me because I can absolutely guarantee that you will be the very last thing on my mind if we lose the elections.

    ReplyReply
  499. 499
    daveNYC says:

    Evil will win because good is stupid.

    ReplyReply
  500. 500
    Mike in DC says:

    @patroclus:
    Most of these claims lie past the statute of limitations and aren’t actionable in tort or in criminal court. Ergo, we are in the nether realm of politics and public accountability. A 3 year ethics investigation is incompatible with public accountability for elected officials.

    ReplyReply
  501. 501
    Scotian says:

    @Tehanu:

    You and several other commenters keep going on and on about the “moral high ground.” What moral high ground is there in forcing a resignation based on un-investigated, unproved allegations? How is that standing up for the rule of law and due process and the Constitution? Oh, wait, it’s “sub-optimal in the he world of politics” to wait for an investigation, so that makes blowing off due process okay, and that gives us the moral high ground? Much as you’d obviously like to, you can’t have it both ways.

    Repeated because IMHO makes a core point being overlooked. Process exists for a reason, due process even more so, and the willingness to throw it all away on so flimsy a basis for the sake of virtue signalling yet again as if this time it is going to be the silver bullet that reverse the near total control of America by the GOP for the Dems. I phrased that quite intentionally, because between the federal and State levels the GOP is only a couple of States away from being able to rewrite the US Constitution legally by its own requirements. That this is not terrifying more of the purity police of/on the left I find frankly baffling beyond my ability to put into words, and when you consider just what kind of bloviating verbose windbag I can be, no small standard being exceeded there.

    ETA: My first BJ TBogg…not even trying for one and I get one, pity I can’t get that in other aspects of life…LOL

    ReplyReply
  502. 502
    TenguPhule says:

    @daveNYC: We never fucking learn.

    ReplyReply
  503. 503
    TenguPhule says:

    @eemom:

    little things like the republicans’ plan to kill us all with the tax monstrosity, the looming government shutdown, and Dump’s trying to bring on armageddon in the ME might be getting a bit of attention today instead of this fucking 24/7 circular firing squad.

    But we’re not allowed to have nice things.

    ReplyReply
  504. 504
    JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo says:

    @TenguPhule: Farenthold does have a significant challenger in the GOP primary, the chair of the Victoria County GOP. He could lose.

    ReplyReply
  505. 505
    Mike in DC says:

    For the record:
    1. I advocated for patience and due process when this began.
    2. 3 weeks passed and the situation worsened politically for Franken and his colleagues.
    3. I disagree with the decision to “pull the plug”, but I understand why they made that tough call.
    4. The investigative process needs to be reformed precisely so that we can avoid being jammed up like this.
    5. There are potential upsides to this, and where they exist we should exploit them. Exposing ratfcks like Stone might be one example.

    ReplyReply
  506. 506
    geg6 says:

    @eemom:

    Yes. Gillibrand is dead to me. She’s worthless.

    ReplyReply
  507. 507
    bearcalypse says:

    Now that Democrats have equated waist touching as butt grabbing and shoulder touching as breast fondling, everyone better follow Mike Pence’s example and have their “Mother” follow them around for any interaction with another human.

    ReplyReply
  508. 508
    MCA1 says:

    What’s most astounding to me is the idea that Gillibrand, et. al. might think this is some sort of strategic win for the party. They can’t think that, right? I mean, maybe if the entire party all jumped up on a soapbox and started screaming for Farenthold’s and Moore’s and whoever else’s heads while saying “Look how pure we are and how craven Republicans are!”, it would be semi-rational to think that people will even notice the difference in reaction between the parties to this sort of thing. But they won’t do that, because they’re incapable of it. And the media wouldn’t help them do it even if they could pull it off, because it’s addicted to false equivalency and incapable of pointing out distinctions. Not to mention that there are 84 separate crises of an order of magnitude greater than this instigated daily by the White House and the GOP Congress, so they wouldn’t be able to cut through that noise AND it would irresponsible to be so focused on this moral issue in the midst of the existential clusterbombs exploding all over the place. They’re relying on individuals to give them credit for their moral purity without demanding it, in 2017 America. That is so fucking deluded it’s a joke. Like, did y’all see what happened last November? Have you seen the Moore/Jones polling?

    Instead they’ve set a precedent, for Democrats only, of course, that even allegations of what, on a 1-10 scale of sexual impropriety can’t possibly register above a 2 (while there’ll be a Senator from Alabama in a week with a score of 7 or 8, and a Republican President at the same level), means you’re out. No Republicans or independents are nodding their heads at the righteousness of the Democratic Party in contrast to the cravenness of the GOP and saying “Yeah, I’m gonna go with those guys from now on.” Zero.

    It would have been so easy to announce “We’re going to have this national conversation about male bad behavior, and we’re going to do it through the prism of Al Franken’s REQUESTED Ethics Committee Investigation. When will Paul Ryan schedule an investigation of Blake Fahrenthold?”

    ReplyReply
  509. 509

    Congratulations on your victory.

    ReplyReply
  510. 510
    Miss Bianca says:

    @Elizabelle: I have never felt like this before, but I’m with you now. I can’t believe I was spending so much damn time defending the national Democrats from charges levelled by friends on both the left and the right. But I’m done with it now. Oh, i’ll still vote for Democrats. But i’m done with trying to persuade people that they are actually a *good* choice, rather than the lesser – the shrivlled, pathetic lesser – of two evils.

    For the first time since I first registered as a Democrat, back in 1984, I feel like dropping that registration and becoming an independent.

    ReplyReply
  511. 511
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @Mike in DC:

    5. There are potential upsides to this, and where they exist we should exploit them. Exposing ratfucks like Stone might be one example.

    The naivete, it burns.

    ReplyReply
  512. 512
    AliceBlue says:

    I know there are some here who don’t care for Charles Pierce, but his column today is worth a read. Especially the last sentence:

    “You look across a political landscape like the one that the last few decades have created, and the Moral HIgh Ground looks like the lichen-mottled ruins of a dead civilization.”

    ReplyReply
  513. 513
    Mike in DC says:

    I’m hardly naive. If losing Franken motivates people, including journos, to go hard at people like Stone, Cernovich, Bannon, O’Keefe, et al, that’s an upside. Jesus, people, sometimes the guys in charge are going to make a tough call you don’t like and disagree with. But we’re supposed to be the party of compassion, empathy, understanding and good faith. The least you can do, after the anger subsides, is make an honest effort to understand the call, taking their intentions in good faith.

    ReplyReply
  514. 514
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Betty Cracker: Don’t worry, wait till they break out the ‘Al woulda won against Trump’ stuff. After all, those two sound just like Wilmer fans right now.

    ReplyReply
  515. 515
    PJ says:

    @Mike in DC: I would be more understanding of the “guys in charge” if they did not decide to override the will of the people of Minnesota.

    ReplyReply
  516. 516
    joel hanes says:

    @PJ:

    you … bullshit

    I’m glad your foresight and perception are so good.

    Many other people in the nation were not so fortunate wrt the AUMF vote.
    Not all of them were evil.

    Have a fine solstice festival, and the best to you and yours in the New Year.

    ReplyReply
  517. 517
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    But we’re supposed to be the party of compassion, empathy, understanding and good faith

    Which is why it decided to knife Franken in the back over sketchy allegations.

    ReplyReply
  518. 518
    Caravelle says:

    @Schlemazel: Yeah, those purity ponies are the worst! They’re the reason for the worst Republican excesses of the last twenty years! They make you so angry you… threaten to vote straight Republican just to spite them?

    If you don’t mean it, maybe consider taking ten deep breaths and taking a day off the internet. If you do mean it, maybe stop and consider your life & choices.

    ReplyReply
  519. 519
    PJ says:

    @joel hanes: I never said they were all evil, I said some were stupid, too.

    Happy Holidays to you too!

    ReplyReply
  520. 520
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    and 12 cases of thinking impure thoughts about a woman not his wife.

    Or maybe not: @TenguPhule:

    ReplyReply
  521. 521
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    I’m hardly naive.

    Right. And then in the very next sentence you wrote:

    If losing Franken motivates people, including journos, to go hard at people like Stone, Cernovich, Bannon, O’Keefe, et al, that’s an upside.

    Oh, I know, “it’s a conditional! It’s not a statement of fact! I was just saying ‘what if?’ ”

    But tell us again how you’re not naive.

    ReplyReply
  522. 522
    TenguPhule says:

    @MCA1:

    It would have been so easy to announce “We’re going to have this national conversation about male bad behavior, and we’re going to do it through the prism of Al Franken’s REQUESTED Ethics Committee Investigation.

    But that wouldn’t be as satisfying as crucifying one of our best in order to fuck up the party for the personal political advantage of Gillibrand.

    ReplyReply
  523. 523
    Damned at Random says:

    OK, this is my take (as a female engineer, accustomed to dealing with social awkward men):

    1. Some men have no clue how to flirt and they are becoming increasingly confused. Hence, if a man lays his hand on your clothed body in a manner that makes you uncomfortable, take that hand and move it, He’ll get the message and may well apologize, This is not an HR level offense. (Unless it’s your superior- they are held to a higher standard)

    2. Women are not saints. I will listen to a woman and give her the benefit of the doubt, but her story has to hold water. If a coworker rapes you and you wait 16 years to go to HR, I question your veracity. Can’t help it – 16 years of sexual harassment training before the light goes on? Give me a break.

    3. At some point between the ages of 16 and 25, every sentient woman learns to deal with unwanted advances. Circumstances matter – abuse in a domestic situation is a hard problem, but in a social/work environment, you have options and do not need to accept victimhood. If you do accept harassment for any extended period of time, you have made a choice. Own up to it.

    I wasn’t born cynical, but I have no patience for helpless women, They drag us all down

    ReplyReply
  524. 524
    WaterGirl says:

    @rikyrah: ICAM?

    never mind, I figured it out just as I clicked to post the comment. I couldn’t agree more.

    ReplyReply
  525. 525
    WaterGirl says:

    @notoriousJRT:

    Gillibrand’s stock had dropped in my eyes

    I agree with you, if by “dropped”, you mean fallen through the floor all the way to China.

    ReplyReply
  526. 526
    WaterGirl says:

    @eemom: Could not agree more. I am furious at the stupidity and heartbroken about the consequences.

    edited

    ReplyReply
  527. 527
    Mike in DC says:

    @SFAW:
    There are people going hard at all of those guys. It will take time for that work to bear fruit.

    ReplyReply
  528. 528
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule: clearly you are exemplifying the spirit of good faith argumentation.

    ReplyReply
  529. 529
    JaneSays says:

    @different-church-lady: He’s still a United States senator for a few more weeks.

    ReplyReply
  530. 530
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @Mike in DC: Your #5 statement I quoted is incredibly naive (meaning, I’m not sure you even believe it). Stone’s been ratfucking since the Nixon years, and he’s as “exposed” as he’s likely ever gonna get. And even if he somehow got “more exposed” (whatever that would mean) as the fascist ratfucker he is, what the hell difference would that make?

    And the feckless Democratic Party, which just scored an own-goal here on this ratfuck of Franken (which is what it was) is somehow going to exploit this for electoral gain?

    You’re trying to find a silver lining in this shitty situation that doesn’t exist, or is very thin gruel at best (to mix some metaphors). Sorry to say, but that is bleedingly-obvious political naivete, whether you accept it or not.

    Pierce’s quote in AliceBlue’s comment right after mine above is dispositive on the efficacy of this Moral High Ground bullshit.

    ReplyReply
  531. 531
    debit says:

    @JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo: Minnesota put Norm fucking Coleman in Paul Wellstone’s seat after his tragic death. I wouldn’t count on Minnesotans to do anything right. And I speak as one of them.

    ReplyReply
  532. 532
    Mike in DC says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot: Stone is being used as a Trump “source” by NYT journalists. Exposing that and hammering away at stuff like that can bear fruit. They stop going to him, stop taking anything he’s behind at face value, etc. Doesn’t happen without a lot of work.

    What was the upside of standing by Franken as accusations mounted? Did we 100% know for sure he’d be vindicated? Was there reason to doubt that would happen? Was there a political cost to sticking by him? Etc. Don’t equate pragmatic decisions with cowardice.

    ReplyReply
  533. 533
    Anotherlurker says:

    @TenguPhule: I called Gillibrand’s office today a vented to some poor intern. I informed him that I am a former constituent of her’s who, voted for her, argued for her and contributed to her campaigns. I expressed my opinion that the Senator is a cynical opportunist who piled on Frankin’s case for political gain.
    I informed the kid that I will register as an Independent from here on in.
    I did not say that I am also a pragmatist who will vote for her, should she run for president. I will hold my nose (after stuffing cottonballs coated with Vicks up my sinus cavities), and pull the lever for any Dem who runs for any office.

    ReplyReply
  534. 534
    notoriousJRT says:

    @WaterGirl: I cannot say it has fallen that far for me. It may, but I am not there yet.

    ReplyReply
  535. 535
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC: Clearly you’re ignoring all of the other points that have been repeatedly brought up that shoot your arguments to pieces.

    ReplyReply
  536. 536
    Tilda Swintons Bald Cap says:

    Anyone have a list of male Democratic Senators from states with Republican Governors? Asking for my friend Roger. Thanks.
    /s

    ReplyReply
  537. 537
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    What was the upside of standing by Franken as accusations mounted?

    Voters respect standing up for one of your own. That you can’t appreciate this simple fact of life is bewildering.

    ReplyReply
  538. 538
    Anotherlurker says:

    @Skepticat: I’m sorry folks, but I have another comment: The hatchet job on Senator Frankin is the Dems telling the public that “Both parties really are alike” and tasteless, sophmoric behavior by a comedian, in a rehersal, is the exact moral equivelent of stalking 14 year olds at a shopping mall, sending dick pics., raping a 14 year old, getting caught in a motel room with an underaged male prostitue, etc.

    ReplyReply
  539. 539
    Sergio Lopez-Luna says:

    @Mike in DC: If you think that Franken leaving was a good thing in itself and it was worth it even if it costs us the MN Senate seat (and maybe any hope of controlling the Senate) then say it and stop saying that this is good for the Democrats!

    ReplyReply
  540. 540
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    If there are, they weren’t raised by you.

    ReplyReply
  541. 541
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    There’s a fine line between defending your own and stonewalling. As the number of accusations mount, the line starts to blur. Should they have waited for the number of accusers to hit double digits? Triple digits? Try to live in the real world, please.

    ReplyReply
  542. 542
    Mike in DC says:

    @Sergio Lopez-Luna: Where did I say that? I said that while I didn’t necessarily agree with the call, but that under the circumstances it was understandable, and that we should try to get past our anger in order to see that, and not ascribe bad faith or cowardice to his colleagues .

    ReplyReply
  543. 543
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    As the number of accusations mount, the line starts to blur.

    So you’re good with fake accusations as long as they exceed a certain threshold?

    ReplyReply
  544. 544
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC: Much like the rest of your arguments, the evidence doesn’t support you.

    ReplyReply
  545. 545
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    There’s a fine line between defending your own and stonewalling.

    Yes, except where was there stonewalling? Since when is “asking for a little more info regarding questionable accusations” considered “stonewalling”? I mean, outside of your oh-so-refined sense of decorum, propriety, and veeblefetzer, that is.

    ReplyReply
  546. 546
    Mike in DC says:

    @TenguPhule:
    Are they all fake? Did God tip you off? Are you sure no more are coming, or if they are, that they’re all fake too?

    I’m going to go out on a limb and say that you don’t know for sure that every single accuser is lying. And that you/we don’t know whether more are out there. But that we do know what the political cost of this narrative is.

    ReplyReply
  547. 547
    SFAW says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Much like the rest of your arguments, the evidence doesn’t support you.

    Ad hominem! Ad hominem!

    Remember: if you call someone’s argument “bullshit,” that’s an ad hominem attack.

    (Of course, were Franken from Michigan, it might have been an Ad Eminem attack. )

    ReplyReply
  548. 548
    Aleta says:

    @ruemara: @ruemara: Thanks for the strength of these clear words.

    ReplyReply
  549. 549
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    So now it’s “at least one of them is real! I think! So suck it, libtard!”

    ReplyReply
  550. 550
    mike in dc says:

    @SFAW: Hey, congrats on the bad faith argumentation, chief.

    ReplyReply
  551. 551
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    But that we do know what the political cost of this narrative is.

    Because Franken announced his resignation. Had he not, there might have been a significant political cost, there might not. But now we won’t know.

    Well, strike that: no one outside of YOU will know.

    ReplyReply
  552. 552
    TenguPhule says:

    @Mike in DC:

    But that we do know what the political cost of this narrative is.

    The cost of this narrative is that Franken was forced out based on a fucking witch hunt.

    Yes, at this point I’m certain this was a rat fuck operation. The worst allegation that can be plausibly be made is a bad taste photo. That’s it.

    We’ve seen Republicans tough out worse. Why? Because they stick together against anything except the most over the top shit. That’s why they’re kicking our ass and why even if they hate them, voters respect their commitment.

    When you have no respect, you have nothing.

    ReplyReply
  553. 553
    debit says:

    @Mike in DC: The real world where squeezing someone’s waist is the same as rape. Right.

    ReplyReply
  554. 554
    SFAW says:

    @mike in dc:

    Hey, congrats on the bad faith argumentation, chief.

    I’m not the one who went from “There are eight or nine accusations OMFG!!!!!” to “You (TenguPhule) don’t know that they all were lying, so suck it.” Or was the “did God tell you” bullshit supposed to be a good-faith argument?

    You keep projecting. Let’s see, which political party is known for that? Thinking …

    ETA: And speaking of “bad faith argumentation”: your comment at 540 is a primo example of that, twinkles.

    ReplyReply
  555. 555
    mike in dc says:

    @SFAW:
    What was pelosi doing on MTP when Chuck Todd was asking her about Conyers? Did you want weeks more of that shit? Because that would be the political cost of insisting on due process here. Due process takes time and has an uncertain outcome, and politics happens in real time and the costs are immediate and attritive. “Sen. Franken has agree to an ethics committee investigation and until that is completed, I am going to refrain from commenting on the matter”–at some point in time, after the nth week and the nth accuser, that line of defense falls.
    I wanted an ethics investigation–back when I thought this was either a one-off or that there wouldn’t be too many more accusers. By the time his fellow senators pulled the trigger, though, I was on the fence–because at some point you do have to make a tough call. Standing by him wouldn’t have been an easy call, either.

    ReplyReply
  556. 556
    gene108 says:

    555

    ReplyReply
  557. 557
    mike in dc says:

    @SFAW:
    How many more accusers would be tolerable for you to continue supporting Franken and the (eventual) ethics investigation with an uncertain timetable and uncertain outcome? Because that’s the call. Is that an easy call? Does the number of accusers and prolongation of the story, happening in the context it’s happening in, affect the difficulty of the call?

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  558. 558
    Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot says:

    @Mike in DC: I take it you are trying to engage on this topic in a forthright manner, and I’m being (more than) a bit snarky. As much as this topic has divided us here (about as divisive as anything I’ve seen, and I’ve been around BJ since before Mr. Cole had his road to Damascus conversion in ’05) I think almost everyone is on the side of Righteousness; we just disagree pretty vehemently on the meaning and particulars around Franken.

    And it’s much bigger than just Franken: it gets at how (even if — it’s a big “if” I’d say) the side of Righteousness (political wing, the Dem Party, God help us) can win against the currently triumphant fascists (i.e., Republicans). I don’t think there’s any way to spin Franken’s resignation over the accusations as anything but a large net negative for our side, whatever miniscule “upsides” there may be.

    Do I know 100% that the allegations against Franken aren’t true (in the sense of being some kind of sexual harassment)? Of course not. But they smelled like a rat to me, and seemed more so the further I looked. More like Shirley Sherrod and ACORN than Franken being somehow birds of a feather with, say, Trump or Weinstein.

    With the “help” of the Democratic Party leadership (such as it is) culminating in his resignation, though, he is condemned in the public eye now as guilty. Both Sides Do It, doncha know? That’s the main takeaway, and that vaunted Moral High Ground looks exactly as Pierce describes.

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  559. 559
    SFAW says:

    @mike in dc:

    Grow a set, snowflake. “Weeks more of that shit”? There is ALWAYS something for Chuckles Todd to use to bust on the Dems, BFD.

    Were you actually a Dem, I’d suggest you watch Bruno Gianelli’s speech from The West Wing, where he says, in effect, “ENOUGH with allowing ourselves to be the Rethugs’ punching bag.”

    Your “arguments” have been all over the place, in an attempt to convince us of … what? Who the fuck can tell? That it was dulce et decorum for Franken to resign, and that you’ll shake your head sadly, etc., etc. Which Dem will be your next target? 9No, don’t bother to answer, I actually don’t care.)

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  560. 560
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc:

    How many more accusers would be tolerable for you to continue supporting Franken and the (eventual) ethics investigation with an uncertain timetable and uncertain outcome?

    How many fake accusations is your limit before calling for their heads?

    Because the GOP will always be happy to provide that N+1 you keep harping about.

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  561. 561
    SFAW says:

    @Spinoza Is My Co-Pilot:

    I take it you are trying to engage on this topic in a forthright manner,

    Not a good assumption

    ReplyReply
  562. 562
    mike in dc says:

    @debit:
    Actually, he’s been accused by three different women of forcibly kissing them, or attempting to. With tongue. Which is a bit more serious.

    ReplyReply
  563. 563
    SFAW says:

    @TenguPhule:

    How many fake accusations is your limit before calling for their heads?

    There is no limit, because then he’d cede the moral high ground, and would not be able to “tut tut” or “tsk tsk” or whatever.

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  564. 564

    @Ruckus:

    Yes there do seem to be significant differences between many of theirs and ours but aren’t we supposed to be better?

    Yes, that’s why we take accusations seriously and investigate, not rely on mob justice.

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  565. 565
    debit says:

    @mike in dc: And now we’ll never know if these were legitimate accusations or ratfucking because everyone called for him to resign before there could even be an investigation.

    ReplyReply
  566. 566
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc: Two of which have no names. And the third is a FOX Professional Ratfucker.

    Funny, that.

    ReplyReply
  567. 567

    @Mike in DC: That’s the problem, we don’t have a clear position; there’s no process here.

    ReplyReply
  568. 568
    mike in dc says:

    @SFAW:
    I explained my position, in good faith, and you were more interested in cherry-picking it to try to punch me in the face, rhetorically speaking. Winning the argument is more important than understanding my point, which is this: the call to ask Franken to resign was a tough one, but an understandable one, based not on cowardice or ruthless self-advancement, but on pragmatic political considerations. You can disagree with the call without imputing malice or flaw to the deciders. Your choice.

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  569. 569
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc:

    based not on cowardice or ruthless self-advancement, but on pragmatic political considerations.

    Your mistake is thinking that one precludes any of the others. And leaves out stupidity.

    ReplyReply
  570. 570
    Skepticat says:

    @Damned at Random: True dat.

    ReplyReply
  571. 571
    TenguPhule says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    we don’t have a clear position; there’s no process here.

    We do have a position: Its bend over and clutch our ankles and grimace for purity. The process of getting ratfucked will naturally proceed from there.

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  572. 572
    mike in dc says:

    @TenguPhule:
    The problem is that you wear your negativity and cynicism on your sleeve. You might be a good Democrat or a good activist, even a good person, but would make a terrible juror.

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  573. 573
    mike in dc says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:
    But here’s the nub of the problem: When Sen. Franken called for an ethics investigation, he admitted that he didn’t even know what that entailed. This is a situation where we can’t afford multi-year investigations of matters which should only take a few months. They need to be handled quickly, because the public will demand it. So if we’re going to say “let’s have due process, transparency and accountability”, the problem is that the current system is poorly set up for that(see also the confidential harassment settlements and the arcane process thereto). So my suggestion is, going forward, fix the due process so the public can see what’s happening and trust the outcome. Otherwise we can and will get jammed up like this.

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  574. 574
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc: You’re trying to make applesauce out of pineapple grenades.

    We’re in trouble and things are now on course to get much much worse because our elected Senators tried to kick the football again.

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  575. 575
    SFAW says:

    @mike in dc:

    I understand and understood your point. Unfortunately for you, it was not very-well-thought-out, neither from a theoretical perspective, nor from a political/pragmatic perspective. That you continue to go in circles, and play the “well, how many rapes (so to speak) before you’ll be satisfied that he should resign?” game is an indicator of your how disingenuous your argument was and is. And your response(s) to TenguPhule, when he points out the error(s) in your numbers, is to either start the cycle all over again, or do the “La-la-la-la I can’t hear you!” routine, or veeblefetzer.

    But you’ve accomplished your purpose, tovarishch.

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  576. 576
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc:

    This is a situation where we can’t afford multi-year investigations of matters which should only take a few months. They need to be handled quickly, because the public will demand it.

    What public demand?

    ReplyReply
  577. 577
    debit says:

    @mike in dc: The public will demand it? Which public? His actual constituents? Or the Fox news public? Because I have to say that while we’re slitting our own throats, Roy Moore and Donald Trump are double dog daring anyone to come at them.

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  578. 578
    mike in dc says:

    @SFAW:
    Sigh. From one of the posts you cherry-picked:
    For the record:
    1. I advocated for patience and due process when this began.
    2. 3 weeks passed and the situation worsened politically for Franken and his colleagues.
    3. I disagree with the decision to “pull the plug”, but I understand why they made that tough call.
    4. The investigative process needs to be reformed precisely so that we can avoid being jammed up like this.

    What is your position on allegations against Democrats, in the current environment, not in an idealized vaccuum? When does it become time to fish or cut bait? I’d like an honest answer, not more snark, please.

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  579. 579
    Miss Bianca says:

    @mike in dc: I think it’s entirely possibly to ascribe bad faith, panic, and stupidity to the Democratic leadership. In equal measure to the bad faith, cynicism, and nihilism of the GOP. And your argument is specious. The public may “demand” instant action- so does a lynch mob that shows up at a jail. Does that mean the sheriff is supposed to say, “now is not the time for nuance” and throw the prisoner to the mob?

    For that matter. the “public” of the state of Minnesota might have appreciated the notion that it was *their* decision to fire the guy – not Senator Gillebrand’s.

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  580. 580
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @mike in dc:

    They need to be handled quickly, because the public will demand it….So my suggestion is, going forward, fix the due process so the public can see what’s happening and trust the outcome.

    I agree with your latter suggestion and disagree with the first premise. What public demand? I’m a member of the public and I wanted due process. Now it has been short-circuited with the following negative outcomes:

    (1) mob rule has prevailed;
    (2) there’s no longer any mechanism to find out if Al Franken actually was guilty of significant misdeeds or if indeed he was ratfucked;
    (3) if the latter, there’s no way to reinstate him;
    (4) there’s no pathway or incentive to set up due process going forward. The Republicans ain’t going to do it to their own and the Dems have shown neither spine nor loyalty nor respect for said due process.

    ETA: If ratfucking was involved (as I strongly suspect), the R’s have every incentive to rinse, repeat with the Dems as we have shown no learning curve in dealing with this shit.

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  581. 581
    mike in dc says:

    @Miss Bianca:
    You may, but I’d rather not. We’re stuck with them, for now. People seem to keep reading additional terms into what I say–the public expects accountability and transparency, and reasonable timeliness. Are these unreasonable expectations? Will an ethics investigation, the way that committee currently operates, actually satisfy those requirements?
    31 colleagues joined Sen. Gillibrand. i think it’s unfair to peg her as the ringleader of some craven conspiracy.

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  582. 582
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc:

    3 weeks passed and the situation worsened politically for Franken and his colleagues.

    The situation only worsened because 32 DEMOCRATIC SENATORS TURNED ON ONE OF THEIR OWN.

    And this is why rushing to judgement based on sketchy allegations that lack evidence is bad.

    ReplyReply
  583. 583
    mike in dc says:

    @O. Felix Culpa:
    I don’t disagree that this is the downside of the decision. My effort was to try to get people to understand why they did what they did without ascribing all manner of deviltry to their motives.
    We should be capable of putting ourselves into other people’s shoes and trying to see things from a different perspective.

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  584. 584
    mike in dc says:

    @TenguPhule:
    No, the situation worsened because 5-6 more accusers emerged, including a former Democratic staffer. And because there was no sign that an ethics inquiry had started or would get started any time soon.

    ReplyReply
  585. 585

    @patroclus:

    Your presence on every single thread has made BJ non-enjoyable.

    This is why we have a pie filter.

    ReplyReply
  586. 586
    TenguPhule says:

    @mike in dc:

    5-6 more accusers emerged, including an unknown woman who claimed to be a former Democratic staffer.

    Corrected for accuracy.

    When half the accusers are unknown, a wise person would not count them as credible.

    And had Democrats stuck together and POINTED THIS OUT,
    Things would be very different now.

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  587. 587
    Miss Bianca says:

    @mike in dc: Had I lived in France in 1941, I might have wanted to think that my leaders were right about cooperating with the Nazis, too. “Hey, what’s one or two Jews? They probably did the stuff these guys are saying that they did, and in any case, the public DEMANDS that they be made an example of.”

    Yeah, no. I have made excuses for the Democratic leadership in this country for years. But there comes a time when you have to start thinking, “wow…maybe they really ARE as craven, cowardly, opportunistic, and tone-deaf as my lefty friends keep trying to tell me.”

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  588. 588
    mike in dc says:

    @Miss Bianca:
    Well, you’re welcome to your perspective. I’m not going to go Oliver Cromwell* on you.

    *”I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken”

    ReplyReply
  589. 589
    TriassicSands says:

    @different-church-lady:

    1. That’s a tough one, because reputations can be ruined by anonymous accusations. I’m ambivalent.
    2. I don’t see how this is unfair. Please note that I’ve said “in the future.” The situation concerning mistreatment of women has got to change and the mistreatment has got to stop. Claims made immediately have more credibility and are more likely to result in a fair outcome. Both men and women need to accept responsibility — I’m not blaming women — for their own roles. Men, if they are guilty of improprieties need to be confronted at a time and in a way that they can fairly defend themselves. Women, after all that has happened, will, I hope, accept the need to present claims when the events happen. Waiting weakens their credibility (at least among some) and makes it much more difficult for the accused to respond satisfactorily.

    3. This is the one that has been such an abject failure in at least some of the most recent cases. We know how dishonest the Right is today. They could easily amass a dozen anonymous, false accusations and have someone fired or forced to resign without there ever being a proper hearing. Franken’s case is a little different. There’s no quetsion he behaved imappropriately. The real question is do his past actions really warrant ending his Senate career.

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  590. 590
    mike in dc says:

    Bowing out. Think we’re all repeating ourselves at this point. Someone wants the last word, fine by me.

    ReplyReply
  591. 591
    O. Felix Culpa says:

    @mike in dc: I agree that empathy is valuable. I also think that the senators exercised poor judgment. This was an opportunity for them to stand up for due process and articulate important differentiations in assessing bad behavior.

    For example, there is a major difference between persons in power harassing/abusing persons in lesser positions (e.g. Moore and Weiner with minors, Weinstein and Trump with subordinates) and persons acting stupidly with peers (e.g. Franken with that USO actress). We need better guidelines and our leadership blew the opportunity to help frame them.

    I also would have appreciated them articulating trust in the process. Either we believe in due process or we don’t. The Democratic leaders certainly acted as if they don’t believe in it…and where does that leave us?

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  592. 592
    Miss Bianca says:

    @mike in dc: I’ll thank you to take the butcher of Ireland’s advice yourself, if it speaks to you.

    ReplyReply
  593. 593
    SatanicPanic says:

    Can we elevate the discussion a tad and try to keep it free of bad faith assumptions about fellow Democrats?

    Can we entertain the possibility that people might have reasons other than rank stupidity or opportunism to believe Franken should resign? Can we stipulate that those who believe Franken should remain in the senate care deeply about addressing sexual harassment? At least until they say something that indicates otherwise? Because this issue is important. I’m willing to try if you are. Anyhoo, have at it.

    Thank you Betty. I am not going to waste time commenting here anymore, but I appreciate you saying this.

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  594. 594
    SteveKnNKY says:

    this is a local television interview for those that only saw the first accuser’s press conference.

    http://local12.com/news/local/.....er-in-2003

    ReplyReply
  595. 595
    eemom says:

    @mike in dc:

    Door, ass, etc.

    ReplyReply
  596. 596
    Betty Cracker says:

    @SatanicPanic: I hope by “here” you mean this thread and not the blog altogether.

    ReplyReply
  597. 597

    @mike in dc: Then demands from Dem leadership should be for an expedited process, not mob justice. The thing I’m seeing in your comments is that you think this is a one-off, it isn’t. The Republicans know that this will work now, they WILL do it again.

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  598. 598
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in DC:

    There are people going hard at all of those guys.

    Even were that true, which is questionable, it has nothing to do with Franken getting railroaded.

    Cause and effect — how does that shit work?

    ReplyReply
  599. 599
    SFAW says:

    @mike in dc:

    What is your position on allegations against Democrats, in the current environment, not in an idealized vaccuum? When does it become time to fish or cut bait? I’d like an honest answer, not more snark, please.

    Depends on the allegations, depends on what the investigation(s) produce(s). Sorry if that’s not “We-don’t-have-an-answer-after-15-days,-so off-with-his-head!”-enough for you.

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  600. 600
    RedDirtGirl says:

    I won’t be that surprised if it turns out that Al Franken is “hands-y”. The sad truth is that men violate the personal space and bodily integrity of women all the time. It’s on a continuum. At one end it’s merely someone being overly familiar, standing to close. At the other end is sexual assault and femicide.
    An ethics investigation would have been an opportunity to address this.

    Also, too, remember Shirley Sherrod?

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  601. 601
    Tehanu says:

    @mike in dc:

    You can disagree with the call without imputing malice or flaw to the deciders.

    I don’t impute malice; I impute spinelessness and stupidity and failure to live up to their own principles. Yes, those are flaws. I’ve been a yellow-dog Democrat since I was 4 years old and my father explained to me that we didn’t “like Ike” because the Republicans were for the rich people, and I don’t plan to change my registration or my attitude — but the reality you keep blathering on about is that the voters don’t care how “pure” we are; they care that Democrats out of power don’t stand up for what’s right and don’t defend their own, so why should they believe that Democrats in power would stand up for what’s right and defend America?

    @Miss Bianca:

    I have made excuses for the Democratic leadership in this country for years. But there comes a time when you have to start thinking, “wow…maybe they really ARE as craven, cowardly, opportunistic, and tone-deaf as my lefty friends keep trying to tell me.”

    I’m not quite there yet … but I do lean towards it.

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  602. 602
    SgrAstar says:

    @mike in dc: I’ve read this entire thread, and all of your comments…and I’m still not getting how you think we gain from this. Voters have shown repeatedly that they do not care about the “ moral high ground.” We had a terrifically effective senator who was capable of publicly flaying republicans to the bone. We gave that up so, so easily- apparently in order to seize that mythical high ground. And our enemies have ceded fuck-all. Farenthold, Trump, and co…they’re all still there. I think this was an own goal with potentially disastrous consequences. SAD.

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