When they kick at your front door, how you gonna come?

It’s just a matter of time:

Republican activists and lawmakers are engaged in a multi-front attack on special counsel Robert S. Mueller III’s probe of possible connections between associates of President Trump and Russian agents, trying to stop or curtail the investigation as it moves further into Trump’s inner circle.

For months, the president and his allies have been seizing on any whiff of possible impropriety by Mueller’s team or the FBI to argue that the Russia probe is stacked against Trump — potentially building the political support needed to dismiss the special counsel.

Several law enforcement officials said they are concerned that the constant drumbeat of conservative criticism seems designed to erode Mueller’s credibility, making it more politically palatable to remove, restrict or simply ignore his recommendations as his investigation progresses.

Congress will do nothing, you can count on that.

There may be mass resignations from Trump’s cabinet. Perhaps the FBI, CIA, and foreign intelligence will dump everything they know about Trump and his yellow streak, so to speak.

It’s coming and we on the left should think about how we plan to respond, FWIW.






241 replies
  1. 1
    raven says:

    I know you’ll hate this version

    Nouvelle Vague – Guns Of Brixton

    ReplyReply
  2. 2
    randy khan says:

    There’s already a plan for mass protests if Mueller is fired.

    Otherwise, Schneiderman, sealed indictments, the existence of all of the records of the investigation, all make it hard to completely sweep it under the rug.

    Also, apparently Trump still has lawyers telling him everything is fine.

    ReplyReply
  3. 3
    SFAW says:

    @randy khan:

    There’s already a plan for mass protests if Mueller is fired.

    That and five bucks will get you a small whatever at Starbucks.

    ReplyReply
  4. 4

    I don’t know how much they can really do over the long haul. The American people are against them on this. Short of declaring martial law or something, and just jailing or even shooting hundreds of thousands or millions of protesters, their time is running out, whatever they do to Mueller.

    ReplyReply
  5. 5
    smintheus says:

    Who’s going to do the firing? I don’t see any easy means for Trump or his minions to fire Mueller, much less to prevent him from telling the world what he uncovered even if he were fired.

    ReplyReply
  6. 6
    Lapassionara says:

    @raven: so, are you going to the Rose Bowl?

    ReplyReply
  7. 7
    Jeffro says:

    @randy khan:

    There’s already a plan for mass protests if Mueller is fired.

    That might not do a whole lot at first…but if it gets targeted right, hits the right people in the wallet…

    Otherwise, Schneiderman, sealed indictments, the existence of all of the records of the investigation, all make it hard to completely sweep it under the rug.

    Yup. If Mueller is fired and Congress does nothing…there’s no reason not to release it all publicly, every bit of it. Let the people see what all of the GOP kkklowns have been up to. Let ’em see who Trumpov’s really in bed with. And let AG Schneiderman drop the hammer on the Trump Org for money laundering and RICO charges.

    Also, apparently Trump still has lawyers telling him everything is fine.

    You almost have to wonder about those guys…a blessing in disguise, in their own way, intentionally or not…

    ReplyReply
  8. 8
    raven says:

    @Lapassionara: Oh god, I knew it would happen. It’s just not in our budget to go and I GOT TICKETS!!!

    ReplyReply
  9. 9
    burnspbesq says:

    Oddly, Rosenstein said just yesterday that Mueller is doing a fine job. In the world of things I’m going to worry about, Mueller getting fired in the short term doesn’t compete with the tax bill, Federal concealed carry, or Gillibrand trying to railroad Franken out of the Senate.

    ReplyReply
  10. 10
    Jeffro says:

    Btw Trump supporting Moore and dragging the GOP along with him: he HAD to do that and it has little to do with the tax vote ahead or anything else. It reaffirms that the GOP will support anyone – a serial sexual assaulter and all-around creep, say – as long as said creep delivers on their priorities/soothes their fears (real or imagined).

    Trump is Moore and Moore is Trump. Trump could no more sit on the sidelines than he could ‘fess up and admit to sexual assault. Moore was never going to quit the race.

    What we need to be telling the GOP is, “not only do you own Trump…not only do you own Moore…you have guaranteed there will be many more like them. What will you be defending a year from now?”

    ReplyReply
  11. 11
    Citizen_X says:

    we on the left should think about how we plan to respond

    By making a few more dem senators resign, I assume.

    @raven: Yay!

    ReplyReply
  12. 12
    yet another jeff says:

    @randy khan:

    Well, yeah…otherwise they get sent to the cornfield.

    ReplyReply
  13. 13
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    we on the left should think about how we plan to respond, FWIW.

    Get Bernie to use the Bully Pulpit

    ReplyReply
  14. 14
    Yarrow says:

    @raven: Budget, schmudget. Go, go, go!

    ReplyReply
  15. 15
    SFAW says:

    @Citizen_X:

    By making a few more dem senators resign, I assume.

    From your keyboard to the Purity Pony God’s ears. (Also, please note that I had my pinky uplifted when I typed that.)

    ReplyReply
  16. 16
    Dave says:

    Not actually that concerned about this. Trump has terrible judgement outside of a very narrow range and is fundamentally a coward. He may well decide to fire Mueller at some point but it will almost certainly be far too late and done in the dumbest possible manner. As others have noted some of the response has already been gamed out and that involves the NYS AG.
    Ultimately this will be determined in the ballot box. And while I have no doubt the GOP will be pulling out as many stops as they can to screw the vote people seem to finally be waking up to this. And every victory against suppression we win makes the next victory easier.
    My other comfort is not only are these not bright guys they seem idealogicaly unable to grok competence and Mueller well as far as I can tell he is damned competent. It’s not an even playing field.
    So maybe I am still being pollyanish but I’m not as concerned about this as I could be. Not complacent since I put it at 50/50 he fires Mueller at some point but that point will be far too late and the final nail.

    ReplyReply
  17. 17
    frosty says:

    @raven: Take a deep breath, realize you’re a Valued Commenter, suck it up and start a GoFundMe for us.

    EAT: or what @Yarrow: said.

    ReplyReply
  18. 18
    Cacti says:

    It’s coming and we on the left should think about how we plan to respond, FWIW.

    If Dems follow their usual m.o….

    They’ll demand a Democrat resign for it.

    ReplyReply
  19. 19
    GregB says:

    Trump’s biggest drop in approval was when he canned Comey.

    He’s flirting with the high 20’s in approval.

    If he tries to go Ceaucescu it aint gonna work.

    ReplyReply
  20. 20
    Lapassionara says:

    @raven: if you go, and Georgia loses, will you regret spending the money? If not, you should go. Seriously, it is only money.

    ReplyReply
  21. 21
    Yarrow says:

    @Jeffro: Some of the intel comes from our allies around the world. If Mueller is fired I would not be surprised to see some of that intel be released.

    ReplyReply
  22. 22
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @raven: I like that version. A cover that tries to do something interesting with the song.

    ReplyReply
  23. 23
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @GregB: If we go Ceausescu on him (and the Ivana spawn), that’s a different story.

    ReplyReply
  24. 24
    Corner Stone says:

    It’s coming and we on the left should think about how we plan to respond, FWIW.

    Let’s play it straight. All the D’s on the House IC Committee and all D’s on the Senate investigative committees should pre-emptively resign. Just as a show of good faith and moral high ground.

    ReplyReply
  25. 25
    different-church-lady says:

    Well, the very first thing we ought to do is make sure any Democratic senator who has squeezed a woman resigns. After that, the rest falls into place.

    ReplyReply
  26. 26
    Mike in NC says:

    @Jeffro: I’ve said many times that sooner or later a confessed serial killer will run for the US House (of Reprehensibles) as a Republican with the blessings of the RNCC.

    ReplyReply
  27. 27
    Mary G says:

    Hi there. I am from Latin America. That means I come from the future of US politics. The one lesson I can share with you from the future is that when impunity becomes the norm, Democracy becomes a mockery. Then really bad shit happens.— Miguel Paz (@miguelpaz) December 7, 2017

    I am still writing postcards to Darrell Issa. Today I did Trump still needs to release his tax returns, Congress needs to investigate Trump’s history of sexual harassment, the concealed carry bill is wrong, the tax bill is wrong, last year I itemized $11,716 in medical expenses despite having Medicare and the best supplement you can buy, so you better not vote for the conference bill, and net neutrality is good and corporate tax cuts and the carried interest exception are bad.

    Then I called his local office and told them I get madder every day.

    ReplyReply
  28. 28
    different-church-lady says:

    @GregB: In the end going Ceaucescu didn’t really work out well for Ceaucescu either.

    ReplyReply
  29. 29
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    even shooting hundreds of thousands or millions of protesters

    There will not *be* millions of protesters. Americans don’t have the temperament for it.

    ReplyReply
  30. 30
    Hunter Gathers says:

    @different-church-lady: The Democratic Party – where you can grope any woman you want as long she’s not underage.

    ReplyReply
  31. 31
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    OT:

    Cole Ledford‏Verified account
    @ ColeLedford11
    Two years ago, Kim Davis denied David Ermold a marriage license because he was gay, despite it being legalized.

    Today, she had to watch as he signed up to run against her in the next election.

    ReplyReply
  32. 32
    different-church-lady says:

    @Hunter Gathers: Yes, we wouldn’t want to be Republicans, after all.

    ReplyReply
  33. 33
    But her emails!!! says:

    @Hunter Gathers: Actual groping may not apply.

    ReplyReply
  34. 34
    JoeyJoeJoe Junior Shabadoo says:

    @Mike in NC: republicans already went there, kind of. Remember Allen West?

    ReplyReply
  35. 35
    oldster says:

    I drove to the Women’s March in January, and the March for Science few months later. It’s a long drive, but worth it.

    If Trump lifts a finger against Mueller, I will get in the car and drive to DC. I hope the rest of you will meet me there.

    ReplyReply
  36. 36
    SFAW says:

    @different-church-lady: @But her emails!!!:

    Both parties are the same, after all

    ReplyReply
  37. 37
    different-church-lady says:

    @SFAW: Yet, oddly, the penalties are not.

    ReplyReply
  38. 38
    MobiusKlein says:

    General Strike?

    ReplyReply
  39. 39
    Jeffro says:

    @Yarrow: If Mueller is fired, I expect that’ll be the least of it – Mueller’s team themselves would just make everything public, then get out of the NY AG’s (and Congress’?) way.

    Btw I see tonight that reports are Don Jr refused to answer questions about what he told his dad re: Russia (as in, period – no answer there). Smoke, meet fire.

    ReplyReply
  40. 40
    Immanentize says:

    @raven: You must go! For all Dawg lovers everywhere. Like others here, I’ll chip in gas money (or whatever you wanna spend it on).

    ReplyReply
  41. 41
    EM says:

    I keep seeing post after post about how Trump and the Republicans are about to come after Mueller but the bottom line is they can’t fire him. They can start a process which would be rather lengthy and Incredibly difficult which might end up with his removal but the odds of that happening are probably less than 5%.

    First Trump would have to fire either Sessions or Rosenstein. That would be an equivalent of a nuclear bomb going off which in and of itself would result with millions of people protesting in the streets. It is within that context that Trump would then have to get his replacement out of the Judiciary Committee and confirmed by the Senate. It is almost unfathomable that a new attorney-general would be confirmed without strings attached essentially preventing him from firing Muller. Yes I know Republicans are horrible but this process would be going on with millions of people protesting in the streets and the midterms looming just months away.

    And even then if Trump somehow managed to fire sessions or Rosenstin and then get one of his puppets out of the Judiciary Committee and confirmed by the Senate, even at that point you can’t just go ahead and fire Muller.

    As John Dean explained it, “Unlike the summary firing of Archibald Cox by Nixon, to remove Mueller or any of his staff would require an investigation and proceeding by the Department of Justice, and would be subject to appeal in federal court. Indeed, these regulations were written to make it difficult to remove a special counsel, and I seriously doubt Trump can succeed. These regulations would have to be nullified by Trump, but I have little doubt Mueller could and would litigate that action, and prevail in federal court because a president cannot remove due process to accomplish his goal of removing the special counsel. Nor with a special counsel as experienced and careful as Mueller, can he exercise any control over the investigation.”

    So, could Trump fire Muller? Possibly. But the odds of that happening are incredibly low.

    ReplyReply
  42. 42
    Jeffro says:

    @Mike in NC: One certainly could. The Rs seem to not be able to draw a line as to who could possibly be worse than..than…a DEMOCRAT! And so we will keep finding out each election cycle what is acceptable in their view. Alexandra Petri absolutely nailed this in a WaPo column today…lemme go dig up the link…

    ReplyReply
  43. 43
    gene108 says:

    Lawrence O’Donnel has a poll up on his show.

    67% of respondents think Trump & Co are somewhat or very likely mucking about with Russians

    26% think Trump&Co had nothing or very little to do with Russia.

    6% just don’t know.

    We maybe nearing the crazification factor with regards to Trump’s Presidency’s approval with voters

    I don’t think people will just shrug off firing Mueller.

    Best case is they vote the buns out in 2018

    ReplyReply
  44. 44
  45. 45
    Cacti says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Let’s play it straight. All the D’s on the House IC Committee and all D’s on the Senate investigative committees should pre-emptively resign. Just as a show of good faith and moral high ground.

    And maybe apologize for ____________ as they do.

    ReplyReply
  46. 46
    Immanentize says:

    @EM: Agreed. I’ve been saying similar things all along. It seems like the “Mueller will be fired!” Is some weird masochistic hope on the part of many on the left unconnected to the realities of civil service laws and DOJ structures.

    ReplyReply
  47. 47
    Doug! says:

    @oldster:

    I’ll be there if I can.

    ReplyReply
  48. 48
    Jeffro says:

    Btw I just watched his dumb remarks about the Middle East and what not…no, the guy didn’t have a stroke; yes his denture were probably slipping. But jesus, having to watch his tiny hands waving around and seeing him robotically swivel from dead-on to the camera to 45 degrees left (his left) back and forth made me seasick.

    ReplyReply
  49. 49
    chris says:

    This can’t end well.

    Trump is meeting in the Oval Office tomorrow with former UN ambassador John Bolton, who complained publicly in August that he was being prevented (likely by John Kelly) from seeing Trump anymore.— Daniel Dale (@ddale8) 7 December 2017

    ReplyReply
  50. 50
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @EM:

    Or, Trump fires Mueller and immediately gets a TRO stating that Trump has power to do so and requiring Mueller to vacate post. Then there is emergency appeal to Supreme Court which accepts and then rules in favor of Trump.

    Who knows.

    The old rules don’t apply and it all depends on 5 votes. And you just appointed one of them.

    ReplyReply
  51. 51
    Kay says:

    They won’t do anything to Mueller. They’re scared of going to prison. Imagine Trump, or any of these people, in prison. They’re the most spoiled, coddled people on the planet. Trump can’t even stay in a hotel he’s unfamiliar with.

    ReplyReply
  52. 52
  53. 53
    Mai.naem.mobile says:

    If Mueller is fired I seriously would anticipate violence against some random federal elected office GOPrs. I am not being hyperbolic here, I really believe that violence would happen.

    ReplyReply
  54. 54
    GregB says:

    @chris:

    I assume he will be the Sec. of State once Tillerson gets voted off the Island of Dr. Moreau.

    ReplyReply
  55. 55
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Sure, but that was one day. Would they keep coming back, and back, and back, through the coldest part of winter, like the Ukrainians did in 2014? Not a chance.

    ReplyReply
  56. 56
    GregB says:

    @different-church-lady:

    Failed bigly.

    ReplyReply
  57. 57
    Mike in NC says:

    @Jeffro: Assuming that Disneyworld will someday see fit to add an animinaic Donald Trump to their lame presidents hall, the robot will be more lifelike than the original.

    ReplyReply
  58. 58
    Peale says:

    @Cacti: finally.that reckoning for Bill Clinton we’ve been waiting for! Down to 36 members in the Senate, we can just rotate a Senator into the minority leader role each month until the end of Trumps time in office. Until we find one who progressives won’t be demanding an immediate resignation from so that we can have a fresh face.

    ReplyReply
  59. 59
    Immanentize says:

    @GregB: I’m thinking more “The Tempest” and Caliban?

    ReplyReply
  60. 60
    Carolina Dave says:

    @raven:
    Every college football fan should have a Rose and Sugar Bowl rainy day slush fund on which to rely.
    Unless you go every 4th year like some SEC, BIG 10, or PAC 12 schools.
    UGA in Pasedena? For a semifinal? Unless you think it likely for a future trip, GO! NOW! Should be a great game.

    ReplyReply
  61. 61
    Ruckus says:

    @MobiusKlein:

    General Strike?

    It may be the only way. But first how about a boycott of any and every big corp that in anyway supported or supports drumpf? Let our money do the talking. We know that the big money on the right will spend but only to purchase politicians and the lack of laws. We control billions of dollars of trade, with a lot of companies that need our money to have income to not pay taxes on. We know some of the cardboard pizza assholes not to support. Any business that the kochsucker bros own any part of. Mobil/Exon gave us Tillerson, should we still support them? How about others to avoid?
    If they are going to make life tough for us, lets do the same for them. I suggest just at least check out the places you normally go and see if they should be boycotted. If you do, post on BJ and let’s get cracking.

    ReplyReply
  62. 62
    Mike in NC says:

    @chris: Bolton leading Trump around by the nose on Pearl Harbor Day? Who could possibly be in the line of fire?

    ReplyReply
  63. 63
    tobie says:

    It’s the end of a long day and I have to say I’m burning with rage at the Democratic Party’s willingness to throw Franken under the bus without any investigation of the claims, most of which strike me as flimsy (he squeezed my waste, his hand grazed my butt in what may or may not have been a grab, etc.) and designed for the sole purpose of helping Roy Moore’s campaign. In 2016 we learned how easy it was to dupe the left and the right when it came to HRC. And in 2017 we’re learning how easy it is to weaponize the #MeToo movement to destroy the lives of unabashed liberal politicians. 6 months ago I didn’t have much of an impression of Gillibrand one way or another. Now I can’t stand her.

    ReplyReply
  64. 64
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Americans don’t even fucking know what a general strike is.

    ReplyReply
  65. 65

    It’s coming and we on the left should think about how we plan to respond, FWIW.

    Personally, I favor greasing the guillotines with the fat of billionaires. But let’s be honest, nothing short of a well-armed and -timed coup is gonna shakes these leeches loose. The soulless two bit ratfuck criminals in the House of Shards have already demonstrated a craven wont to piss all over anything that isn’t a tax cut or fucking over the poors, women, and non-whites. Oh, but 2018 elections! Yep. Counting the days, one by one. Supporting the local get-out-the-vote and Sen Browns’ re-election. Until then, stalking Act Blue and drinking heavily. *sigh*

    @Amaranthine RBG: This. Once upon a time it worked at a regional or business line level. Now, we lack the capacity to organize, and the brass jewels to execute.

    ReplyReply
  66. 66
    Yarrow says:

    @chris: That’s the second story in the last week about how Trump is getting around the restrictions to access to the oval office that Kelly has put in place. Wonder if Trump will fire Kelly. He can do that and might just because he’s pissed off at being managed.

    ReplyReply
  67. 67
    J R in WV says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Two years ago, Kim Davis denied David Ermold a marriage license because he was gay, despite it being legalized.

    Today, she had to watch as he signed up to run against her in the next election.

    Too swell. I hope the guy wins big, and takes that Davis bitch’s family career away from her. Full of Christian Hate… deserves to desperately need a real job at the corner quickmart, selling gas at 2 am.

    ReplyReply
  68. 68
    Brachiator says:

    @MobiusKlein:

    General Strike?

    We don’t do general strikes in the US.

    ReplyReply
  69. 69

    Daily ritual self flagellation and violent fantasy thread!

    ReplyReply
  70. 70
    Corner Stone says:

    @tobie: I can’t fucking stand her.

    ReplyReply
  71. 71
    Dmbeaster says:

    Forget “planning”. Yell loudly that they are trying to rig the deal, fix the outcome. Yell that they are corrupt and want to subvert the rule of law. Call the GOPers aiders and abettors. Civility just does not cut it

    ReplyReply
  72. 72
    Yarrow says:

    @tobie:

    he squeezed my waste

    That’s an unexpected kink.

    ReplyReply
  73. 73
    Dmbeaster says:

    Anybody who argues Franken must resign must argue that Clinton should have resigned, and Hillary was a sh!t for staying with him.

    ReplyReply
  74. 74
    different-church-lady says:

    @Dmbeaster: And yet somehow is not required to argue that Trump or Thomas must resign.

    Odd that.

    ReplyReply
  75. 75

    @schrodingers_cat: Rotating tag line entry?

    ReplyReply
  76. 76
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Dmbeaster:

    Well, obvs.

    ReplyReply
  77. 77
    Carolina Dave says:

    @Corner Stone:
    As much as I hate circular firing squads, she organizated the current one. I was saying WTF abut her Clinton comments 2 weeks ago. Some serious blind ambition, this one has, unconcerned with collateral damage of allied troops. Yes, fuck her.

    ReplyReply
  78. 78
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    this made me chuckle

    Attorney-Client Privilege‏Verified account @ mattyglesias
    Don Jr. may have been thinking of the Sopranos episodes where they family held meetings at their lawyer’s office because attorney-client privilege prevented the FBI from bugging it.

    ReplyReply
  79. 79
    Gin & Tonic says:

    @Yarrow: Rule 34.

    ReplyReply
  80. 80
    Doug R says:

    There won’t be millions of protesters killed because after the first few thousand, it’ll look like Libya. Not how much of the armed forces would back trump up either, especially on the left coast.

    ReplyReply
  81. 81
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Dmbeaster: Must resign might well no longer enter into it. If he does resign tomorrow, now what?

    ReplyReply
  82. 82
    B.B.A. says:

    @Dmbeaster: That’s rapidly becoming the new conventional wisdom among Democrats under a certain age. We ignore them at our own peril.

    Gillibrand is playing hardball and she’s a frontrunner for the 2020 nomination. Are you really such purity ponies that you’d reelect Trump/Pence/Ryan/whoever over her?

    ReplyReply
  83. 83
    different-church-lady says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: 2: ?
    3: PROFIT!

    ReplyReply
  84. 84
    different-church-lady says:

    @B.B.A.: What makes you think she will garner electoral rewards for being on the morally correct side of this scandal?

    ReplyReply
  85. 85
    Kay says:

    Rick Gates’ lawyer said in court yesterday that more charges could be coming “in both cases” from Mueller.

    I love to think of them all worried, because no one is watching this more closely than the co-conspirators in and around the White House. They’re not really tough guys. They’re corrupt rich people who found themselves running the country after they had already broken all these laws. They can’t undo any of it now. They just have to wait and hope they don’t end up in prison. Out of their hands, really.

    ReplyReply
  86. 86
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Dmbeaster: I think Clinton was saved from being forced out by Rs’ lunge for impeachment. Other people’s marriages are foreign countries, as was often said back then.

    ReplyReply
  87. 87
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @B.B.A.: And all men are misogynists. Fuck you.

    ReplyReply
  88. 88
    Yarrow says:

    LOL. I’d missed this.

    Bruce Springsteen sings "Robert Mueller's Comin' to Town" #YouBetterWatchOut #YouBetterNotCry #YouBetterNotLieToTheFBI pic.twitter.com/HvebMmVQCR— Fallon Tonight (@FallonTonight) December 5, 2017

    ReplyReply
  89. 89
    B.B.A. says:

    @different-church-lady: Vox is still in business and it can’t be all (or even mostly) hatereaders.

    ReplyReply
  90. 90
    Kay says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    Erik Prince told Congress he had just flown in from Africa and he wasn’t going along with their “fishing expedition”

    They should wait until he goes back to Africa and call him back in. Once a month or so, forever.

    ReplyReply
  91. 91
    Peale says:

    @tobie: yep. It’s the damn email story all over again, but faster. Should Hillary have dropped out of the race immediately after the server issue surfaced? No. She didn’t. But what came next was a feeding frenzy of email stories that really were nothing, but enough that they managed to convince people under the spell of 25 years of narrative that the server proved something. She always skirts the law! She always gets away with her crimes because she’s shifty! She only had that sever because she thinks she’s above the law and if I did the same thing I’d be fired! If you can’t find that email that says “thanks for the donation Sheik Omar. I’m going to use those funds to add a wing onto the mansion. Fuck the poor, illiterate and disease ridden lower classes”…well that’s because she’s crafty and deleted them.

    So maybe she should have just dropped out. But there was 25 years of hard work to plant that narrative in our heads about the great Clinton Betrayal Of Liberalism on the left.

    Al Franken did not have that baggage. It took three weeks. Actually less.

    ReplyReply
  92. 92
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    @Yarrow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHu-2vyvaQY

    ReplyReply
  93. 93
    Carolina Dave says:

    @B.B.A.:
    And so who is the candidate actually saying that out loud? And plunging knives into more progressive Dems. Her ambition and ruthlessness makes her dangerous. Can I trust her to actually govern as a progressive?

    ReplyReply
  94. 94
    different-church-lady says:

    @B.B.A.: Vox has electoral votes?

    ReplyReply
  95. 95
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    can we worry about Sherrod Brown’s reelection, Jacky Rosen taking on Dean Heller, Ann Sinema against whatever the AZ Republican party coughs up, Grandpa Phil Bredeson (sp?) against (probably) vicious and glib and good-on-teevee Marsha Blackburn, and a couple hundred House races before we start deciding who’s dead to us in 2020?

    ReplyReply
  96. 96
    Yarrow says:

    @David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch: It’s in the tweet I posted if you click through.

    ReplyReply
  97. 97
    Mike J says:

    @Dmbeaster:

    Anybody who argues Franken must resign must argue that Clinton should have resigned, and Hillary was a sh!t for staying with him.

    A favorite argument of Republicans was that Hillary should have divorced Bill.I always thought that no matter what he did, their marriage was between them. Sad to see Democrats trying to decide what the love|sex lives of others should look like. (I realise this does not apply to you.)

    ReplyReply
  98. 98
    Mike J says:

    Has anybody played Chivalry: Medieval Warfare? I got the humble bundle for the jingle jangle and it looks interesting.

    ReplyReply
  99. 99
    mouse tolliver says:

    Al Franken defenders on Fox News!Gingrich and Ingraham just now: This is “political calculation.” And “weird puritanism.” He’s accused of “minor stuff.” Dems are a “lynch mob.” There’s “no due process.”— Brian Stelter (@brianstelter) December 7, 2017

    Democrats are getting played so hard right now. They get punk’d into kicking Franken out of the party then the right uses their mob mentality to discredit the entire #metoo movement. Just scrolled through Gillibrand’s twitter and couldn’t find a single comment supporting what she did. Even abuse survivors are criticizing this move.

    ReplyReply
  100. 100

    @different-church-lady:

    Who’s saying Thomas or Trump shouldn’t resign? Of course they should. But we can say that all we want. We can’t control what they do, we only have some say over what we do. When people harass women, should we just stand aside and make believe it isn’t happening because we like who’s doing it?

    I love Al Franken. I was hoping he’d stay there for 20 years, and until a few weeks ago, I thought he would. But how can we just say, “Hey, it’s our guy, so let’s forget this.”? Yeah, I know, it’s nothing like what Moore did or Trump has done, but it was enough to upset, what, four or five women? I don’t see how we can let that slide.

    You can ask if this is unfair. I don’t know, maybe it is. Nobody would have given a shit and a half about this ten years ago or even three years ago. But things are no longer the same, and I’m glad it’s happening. And Al Franken is hardly going to be the last. I don’t know how many more of these stories are going to come out about people we love, or who the next one will be. But it is going to happen. There isn’t any going back now, and we’d damned well better get used to this, and make our minds up, as Democrats and as liberals, what our answer is going to be the next time and the time after that, and all the 673 times after that that it keeps on happening until we weed these guys out.

    We might as well get good at handling this, because, whether we like it or not, whether it’s fair or not, it’s coming. As long as it’s going to happen, and as long as we’re going to have to end up doing the right thing sooner or later anyway, I’d much sooner not have to be dragged kicking and screaming into doing it.

    ReplyReply
  101. 101
    Timurid says:

    @Brachiator:

    Because the lack of an effective social safety net makes an extended general strike a win or die gambit.

    ReplyReply
  102. 102
    eemom says:

    we on the left should think about how we plan to respond

    By finding some woman who Mueller brushed past once while exiting an elevator and getting her story in the Atlantic on the same day that Dump starts WWIII, of course.

    ReplyReply
  103. 103
    tobie says:

    @Yarrow: Oh dear…I said it was a long day. My spelling has clearly gone to the birds.@Peale: Everyone says time’s sped up with the internet and social media. So 25 years of character assassination can now be done in three weeks. Things were likely better in the days of carrier pigeons.

    ReplyReply
  104. 104
    randy khan says:

    @yet another jeff:

    Well, yeah…otherwise they get sent to the cornfield.

    Okay, that made me laugh out loud.

    ReplyReply
  105. 105
  106. 106
    Corner Stone says:

    @mouse tolliver: We’re getting punked by rwnj assholes and an uncontrolled ambitious asshole on “our” side.

    ReplyReply
  107. 107
  108. 108
    Cacti says:

    @eemom:

    By finding some woman who Mueller brushed past once while exiting an elevator and getting her story in the Atlantic on the same day that Dump starts WWIII, of course.

    That piece today read like The Atlantic published a story by a bad right wing caricature of a liberal woman to troll everyone.

    I especially enjoyed her “I don’t even let my husband put his arm around me in public”.

    Who can’t relate with that? smh

    ReplyReply
  109. 109
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    Psychobabble nonsense repeating itself to build a bridge across the chasm that is your ignorance so you can reach the conclusion you wan ton the other side.

    ReplyReply
  110. 110
    Corner Stone says:

    @Jim, Foolish Literalist:

    before we start deciding who’s dead to us in 2020?

    We should be able to. However, we need to cauterize the self-inflicted wounds by assholes who are on “our” side. Those who have decided they will drive a narrative no matter what damage happens.

    ReplyReply
  111. 111
    Lyrebird says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    “Hey, it’s our guy, so let’s forget this.”?

    Hm. I almost never ever disagree with you.

    On this, though – how is going through an ethics investigation equal to “let’s forget this”? I’d rather him go through the official process, including possible penalties, then it’s all the easier to point and say, okay Trump Moore whoever – your turn!

    It doesn’t help people who are being victimized to lump together consensual skeezing (Mr. Clinton), unknown levels of creeping/groping of adults (Minn Sen), and predation on teens. It just doesn’t.

    ReplyReply
  112. 112
    Corner Stone says:

    @Cacti: “It diminishes me!”
    Oh. Well, you’re a voice we should absolutely listen to.

    ReplyReply
  113. 113

    @Corner Stone:

    Well, hey, if you think that “not groping women against their will” is too high a standard, then I don’t know what to tell you. And it’s irrelevant anyway. This is coming. These women are going to be speaking out. And we as a party can choose to ignore them or call them liars or sluts or plants or anything else, but this is happening, and it’s only going to keep on speeding up. We’ve gone over some kind of threshold, and there isn’t any going back.

    I think it’s worth doing the right thing because it’s the right thing. I think that’s a good enough reason. But it’s also the smart course to take. We aren’t going to be doing any favors for ourselves to fight this. We might as well fight the tide.

    ReplyReply
  114. 114
  115. 115
    Jim, Foolish Literalist says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: experimenting with edibles tonight, Steve?

    ReplyReply
  116. 116
    danielx says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Many wingnuts would have no problem with martial law or shooting demonstrators either one. Federalize the National Guard, send Alabama Guard units to Detroit…piece of cake.

    ReplyReply
  117. 117
    Cacti says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Well, hey, if you think that “not groping women against their will” is too high a standard, then I don’t know what to tell you.

    “Al Franken put his arm around me once in a photo.”

    #MeToo

    #survivor

    ReplyReply
  118. 118
    Corner Stone says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): So pure. How does your keyboard sustain such an assault by such pure purity being transmitted through it? There’s no way you use voice translation software as only the angels could ever understand the purity of your voice.

    ReplyReply
  119. 119
    frosty says:

    @Immanentize:

    Like others here, I’ll chip in gas money (or whatever you wanna spend it on).

    Perhaps raven would be amenable if we called it a DAWG rescue!

    ReplyReply
  120. 120
    Yarrow says:

    @Cacti:

    I especially enjoyed her “I don’t even let my husband put his arm around me in public”.

    That was ridiculous. What’s she even doing trying to get a picture with a politician at a public event if she doesn’t like having people put their arms around her? Putting an arm around someone is a fairly standard thing for people to do when taking photos. How did she not anticipate that might happen? It’s not considered out of bounds or assault in any way. It’s just normal.

    ReplyReply
  121. 121
    divF says:

    @Lyrebird:

    I’d rather him go through the official process, including possible penalties, then it’s all the easier to point and say, okay Trump Moore whoever – your turn!

    This.

    ReplyReply
  122. 122
    Carolina Dave says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    So how’s Blake Farenthold doing these days? While purity Dems are circling the firing squad around Franken, the tax abomination is in conference.
    OFFS, Sherrod Brown is against Franken.

    ReplyReply
  123. 123
    rikyrah says:

    @gene108:
    The crazyfication factor 😒😒

    ReplyReply
  124. 124
    JR says:

    @Lyrebird: I’m with you here. I think process is essential here.

    One thing that concerns me about Gillibrand et al. coming out against Franken is that they might know that something more serious is coming down the pike. Maybe that’s just my paranoia speaking.

    ReplyReply
  125. 125
    danielx says:

    @Amaranthine RBG:

    What the fuck are you talking about, speaking of psychobabble?

    ReplyReply
  126. 126

    @Carolina Dave:

    Who cares? That’s their problem. Republicans don’t care about doing the right thing? Color me shocked. That’s what they do, not care about doing the right thing.

    ReplyReply
  127. 127
    rikyrah says:

    @Kay:
    Can’t wait for him to get his Bobby Three Sticks subpoena

    ReplyReply
  128. 128

    @Cacti:

    Well, she feels like it was a lot more than that, and she didn’t like it. I believe her. He shouldn’t be doing shit like that. He knows better than that. He made his bed. I wish he hadn’t, but he did, and now we have to deal with it. As I said, this will hardly be the last, and I’d like to see us get good at handling this kind of thing, since we’re going to be doing it again sooner or later, and I’d bet on sooner.

    ReplyReply
  129. 129
    frosty says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Daily ritual self flagellation and violent fantasy thread!

    Nailed it! Although twice or thrice daily seems to be the frequency. I’m getting as weary of it as you’ve been, especially the violent fantasies. Some of these people have to either a) get a grip or b) step away from the computer/phone for a bit.

    There will be no guillotines. There will be no tumbrels. There will be no pitchforks.

    ReplyReply
  130. 130
    Mike J says:

    Judd Legum‏ Verified account @JuddLegum 2 hours ago
    UPDATE: Mass Mutual, a major corporate donor to the RNC, says they will “review future contributions” in light of party’s support of Roy Moore

    ReplyReply
  131. 131

    And yeah, it’s unfair. It sucks. Republicans are worse. And they don’t give a shit. So, yeah, it’s all unfair. But it’s happening, and we aren’t about to make it go away by just wishing it weren’t happening.

    ReplyReply
  132. 132
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Jeffro: Firewall!

    ReplyReply
  133. 133
    danielx says:

    @frosty:

    There will be no guillotines. There will be no tumbrels. There will be no pitchforks.

    Not even one? And I worked SO hard on that letter to Santa, too.

    ReplyReply
  134. 134
    different-church-lady says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    …we aren’t about to make it go away by just wishing it weren’t happening.

    And we also aren’t going to make it go away by giving away the store.

    ReplyReply
  135. 135
    Cacti says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Well, she feels like it was a lot more than that, and she didn’t like it.

    Yes. Let’s all listen to the lady who feels “diminished” by physical contact with her marital partner.

    She doesn’t sound out to lunch in the least.

    ReplyReply
  136. 136
    El Caganer says:

    @Yarrow: Ewww

    ReplyReply
  137. 137

    @Cacti: O.K., so I don’t get this. You think that, what, exactly? Is it that if we think somebody might be a little off, then we shouldn’t listen to them when they tell us they got harassed? That seems like an awfully odd thing for a liberal to say, or a feminist.

    I don’t care what she thinks about how she wants her husband to touch her in public. If she doesn’t want him to, then that’s A-O.K. with me. She didn’t want Franken to do what he did, but it happened too fast to stop it, and it upset her. That, to me, is the beginning and the end of the story right there. He never should have done that. Nobody should.

    ReplyReply
  138. 138
    GregB says:

    @Yarrow:

    Fallon does some very good song parodies.

    Interviews, not so much.

    ReplyReply
  139. 139
    Peale says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): and? We aren’t pretending it isn’t happening. We’re pissed as hell about it because it means slaughter. So good for you.

    Your side has suddenly decided that a precondition for the democrats to take back power is an end to sexual harassment, as defined now to include behaviors that a month ago weren’t. Given the long history of sexual harassment, we might as well be waiting for the sun to start
    Rising in the West.

    ReplyReply
  140. 140
    El Caganer says:

    @tobie: I would be revolted if anybody squeezed my waste.

    ReplyReply
  141. 141
    Cacti says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    O.K., so I don’t get this. You think that, what, exactly? Is it that if we think somebody might be a little off, then we shouldn’t listen to them when they tell us they got harassed?

    Yes, I’m saying that someone who believes an arm around them in a photo constitutes getting groped is coo coo for coco puffs.

    Was I unclear? I’m sorry.

    ReplyReply
  142. 142

    @different-church-lady: And who’s giving away the store here? We’ve been lucky so far, because the people this has come out about so far have been from safe seats. We should take these times to get this down, how we’re going to deal with this, because the next time, it might be a seat we can’t count on. I’d sooner we get this down to a science as soon as we can, because this is not going to end. Franken and Conyers are the first, not the last.

    Does this suck? Yes. Would it be so much nicer and more wonderful all around if it weren’t happening? Yes. Are we all sad to be losing two important elected Democrats? Yes. But this is happening, and it is going to keep happening, and keep happening and then keep happening some more, until we have rooted out all the harassers and assaulters and worse from the party. I wish we’d dealt with this 20 years ago. Maybe if we had, a lot of these guys would have known better than to do this, the younger ones. But we didn’t, and it’s all coming out now, and there isn’t going to be any stopping it, and we’d fucking well better learn how to deal with it now, today, while we can, and get good at it. ’Cause this is how it’s going to be from here on out.

    ReplyReply
  143. 143

    @Cacti:

    Well, all I can say is that it seems like your either abysmally ignorant of what happened or you’re ignoring what she said. She said he put his arm around her waist, grabbed a big hunk of her flesh and gave a good, hard squeeze. I can’t speak for anybody else, but when I put my arm around somebody, a friend or my sister or, well, anybody, I most emphatically do not take a big old handful of their flesh from their waste and squeeze it hard. Maybe I’m in the minority here, but I’d like to believe I’m not.

    ReplyReply
  144. 144
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): You’ve written my post, so now I don’t have to.

    I would add that this sort of mistreatment of women, at varying levels, and ignoring it in favor of men with power, and sometimes with not so much power, has been normalized for a very, very long time. Lots of men have it in their pasts. Others cast a blind eye. Women said nothing or actively colluded with the men. And it was just the way things were. To change the tense of one of Adam’s expressions, it was what it was.

    I’d like to think it was never right. Certainly it never felt right to most women. But now it is seen not to be right. Are people being judged retroactively, by different standards than they understood themselves to be under when they did these things? Perhaps. The spoken standards were similar to todays: We respect women.

    I’ve argued with young people who judge the past this way. But it never was right, and now we’re admitting it. As SDR(FMEA) points out, there will be more. The youngs won’t have it, and those of us who have had to deal with it are ready to condemn it along with them. The people who took advantage are now paying for that advantage.

    ReplyReply
  145. 145
    Cacti says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Well, all I can say is that it seems like your either abysmally ignorant of what happened or you’re ignoring what she said. She said he put his arm around her waist, grabbed a big hunk of her flesh and gave a good, hard squeeze.

    ZOMG

    The horror.

    Get me to the fainting couch.

    ReplyReply
  146. 146
    Cheryl Rofer says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): I’ll agree here too. I’ve been thinking all afternoon, as folks make excuses for this grabass during the photo. When I’ve snugged up for a photo, I have had concerns about some of the hands too “friendly” around my body. Grabbing a big handful of flesh sounds like that, or maybe worse.

    ReplyReply
  147. 147
    Fair Economist says:

    @JR:

    One thing that concerns me about Gillibrand et al. coming out against Franken is that they might know that something more serious is coming down the pike. Maybe that’s just my paranoia speaking.

    It’s not paranoia.They might. If an accusation that is both serious and substantiated comes out, I’ll change my tune. But for now we have a bunch of groping allegations “supported” by pictures showing no groping, and an accusation that Franken held a woman by the waist during a picture.

    ReplyReply
  148. 148

    @Cacti:

    So you’re telling me that if you think they’re stupid, or oversensitive, or crazy–or maybe just under the influence of those wacky old hormones; you know how womenfolk are–then it’s open season on them? Just have at them? I sure as hell hope you don’t have any women in your life.

    ReplyReply
  149. 149
    Corner Stone says:

    This fucking place.

    ReplyReply
  150. 150
    Cacti says:

    @Cheryl Rofer:

    I’ll agree here too. I’ve been thinking all afternoon, as folks make excuses for this grabass during the photo.

    So now it’s morphed into an ass grab?

    Fucking liar.

    ReplyReply
  151. 151
    SFAW says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Is it that if we think somebody might be a little off, then we shouldn’t listen to them when they tell us they got harassed?

    Assuming the quoting is accurate, she’s more-than-a-little “off.” And, that being the case, should be ignored.

    I don’t care what she thinks about how she wants her husband to touch her in public. If she doesn’t want him to, then that’s A-O.K. with me. She didn’t want Franken to do what he did, but it happened too fast to stop it, and it upset her.

    You understand that there’s a continuum (for lack of a better term) on which people fall vis-a-vis acceptable physical contact from others. And, presumably, most people fall in the area of: casual contact — putting one’s arm around another’s shoulders or waist — is no big deal. Less desirable than having a loved one do so, but not a “call the cops!” moment. And that a wife who doesn’t like her husband — assuming they’re not in the midst of a fight or a nasty divorce — to touch her in public is, shall we say, not within two standard deviations of the mean.

    And unless she’s wearing a big sign that says “Don’t fucking touch me! I can’t stand it when people touch me! Especially in public!!!” I would think most persons would assume that she’s closer to the mean. Well, except for all the telepaths roaming the streets, who would know without her needing a sign.

    ReplyReply
  152. 152
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Peale: GOP was in Arkansas several yrs before most people had heard of Bill, digging up anything they could find on him. See the horrific and enlighening book The Hunting of the President.

    Didn’t 1 of the authors of that book work for the paper Jared bought?!

    ReplyReply
  153. 153
    hitless says:

    @divF: My opinion doesn’t matter, but it’s late and the internet and I agree. I think that process has two benefits:
    1) if it is a Republican hit-job, it can be blunted by the investigation
    2) if all the stories are true, having a process still would significantly blunt the potential backlash against #metoo movement

    ReplyReply
  154. 154
    SFAW says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    So you’re telling me that if you think they’re stupid, or oversensitive, or crazy–or maybe just under the influence of those wacky old hormones; you know how womenfolk are–then it’s open season on them? Just have at them? I sure as hell hope you don’t have any women in your life.

    You’re really going off the rails now. Might consider taking a few deep, cleansing breaths.

    ReplyReply
  155. 155
    Corner Stone says:

    And I thought The New Era of Civility ™ was difficult to get through.
    This is war you simple maritime fucks.

    ReplyReply
  156. 156
    Fair Economist says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    But this is happening, and it is going to keep happening, and keep happening and then keep happening some more, until we have rooted out all the harassers and assaulters and worse from the party.

    If, as is happening with Franken, people are required to resign for unsupported allegations and for ordinary non-sexual actions, there will be no Democrats left at all because Republicans will continue manufacturing fictitious allegations until they control every office in the country down to San Francisco dogcatchter.

    ReplyReply
  157. 157

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): You know, if what Sen. Franken is being accused of is entirely accurate and we demand a similar fate for every Democrat(since Republicans don’t give a shit); we won’t have any Democratic Senators. As madame said tonight, it’s a witch hunt.

    ReplyReply
  158. 158
    Cacti says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    So you’re telling me that if you think they’re stupid, or oversensitive, or crazy–or maybe just under the influence of those wacky old hormones; you know how womenfolk are–then it’s open season on them? Just have at them? I sure as hell hope you don’t have any women in your life.

    I’m saying that an arm around someone in a photo is not and never will be a grope. If it was, she was also “groping” Franken, as her arm is draped over his shoulder in a familiar way in the “offending” photo.

    I’m also saying that you are another virtue politics Democrat, addicted to losing, who can be relied upon to swallow the GOP ratfuck du jour hook, line, and sinker.

    ReplyReply
  159. 159
    Corner Stone says:

    @SFAW: How about if you don’t enjoy being touched you tell the person, “I’ll be here and you do you over there?”

    ReplyReply
  160. 160
    Yarrow says:

    @hitless: Agree. A process to deal with these allegations is essential because otherwise the movement will be hijacked and become meaningless. That will not benefit women because the MeToo movement will be destroyed.

    ReplyReply
  161. 161
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @tobie: Was it Limbaugh Franken wrote his book about?

    ReplyReply
  162. 162
    SFAW says:

    @Corner Stone:

    How about if you don’t enjoy being touched you tell the person, “I’ll be here and you do you over there?”

    Isn’t “doing yourself” in public frowned upon? (Assuming it’s even physically possible.)

    ReplyReply
  163. 163
    Corner Stone says:

    @Yarrow:

    That will not benefit women because the MeToo movement will be destroyed.

    I think we are rapidly approaching terminal velocity on this movement. It’s on the cover of Time and about to take Sen Franken out of office. Neither side is going to want to hear a damn thing about this issue pretty soon.

    ReplyReply
  164. 164
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):
    Did the woman leave a gap between herself and Franken, so that he wouldn’t have to put his arm around her? Did she tell Franken, “Don’t put your arm on my waist”? I too am uncomfortable with that kind of close contact with a stranger, and it’s what I would have done. If she did and he disregarded her wishes, he was being rude; but it doesn’t rise to anywhere near the level of a sexual assault, and Franken should not be punished for it as if it did.

    ReplyReply
  165. 165
    Corner Stone says:

    @SFAW: Maybe. But I am still confused at how someone asks to snug up for a photo and does not expect to get an arm around them.

    ReplyReply
  166. 166

    @Cacti:

    And it becomes a grope when the one putting his arm around the other grabs a big old handful of flesh and gives a nice, hard squeeze. That’s what she said happened. You don’t like it. I don’t either, but for different reasons, it seems. I don’t know what the hell he could have been thinking, but he had no fucking business doing it. I know I’m not going to carry the day here tonight, but thankfully, you clowns aren’t the ones whose voices really hold some weight here. It’s the 35-40, and counting, senators who have asked Franken to give up his seat. I expect he will, and I wish he didn’t have to, but this is how it is.

    ReplyReply
  167. 167
    Peale says:

    @Fair Economist: which is fine. Because the party will be too busy weeding out sexual misconduct to go about the business of holding office anyway. It’s a fairly large organization. There’s lots of people to examine. It doesn’t matter though. Congress seats are a dime a dozen so swapping out members isn’t a problem. If I remember right from the “Hillary took money from Weinstein” kerfuffle, such weeding is also going to be applied to donors, who will be very few given that most potential donors, even innocent ones, aren’t all keen about being subjected to checks into their personal lives that way.

    ReplyReply
  168. 168
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Cacti: How many media people do you think just don’t care about the consequences of a Trump era and are simply reveling in the opportunity to be 1st with a headline, true or not?

    ReplyReply
  169. 169
    Cacti says:

    By tomorrow, it will be “Al Franken didn’t actually touch me, but he eye molested me once.”

    ReplyReply
  170. 170
    SFAW says:

    @Corner Stone:

    Maybe. But I am still confused at how someone asks to snug up for a photo and does not expect to get an arm around them.

    You know, this being-rational shit of yours has gotta go.

    ReplyReply
  171. 171
    Cacti says:

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    How many media people do you think just don’t care about the consequences of a Trump era and are simply reveling in the opportunity to be 1st with a headline, true or not?

    Most.

    ReplyReply
  172. 172
    GregB says:

    Jeebers.

    Erik Prince was an intern for Dana Rohrabacher.

    Cue Adam’s penetration at all levels.

    ReplyReply
  173. 173
    Corner Stone says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): They can’t make Franken go anywhere. Only a bunch of stupid fucks like you can try and force him out. I hope he says he isn’t going anywhere and then dares purity assholes like you to vote him out next go round.

    ReplyReply
  174. 174
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Citizen_X: If we make more Democrats resign, then Democrats will be pure, perfect, blameless, and the bestest-ever-purest party-out-of-power ever!

    ReplyReply
  175. 175
    Corner Stone says:

    @Amir Khalid: I am not a big fan of being touched either. And I am also not a “star” fucker. But if I ask someone to take a second for a pic with me or me and my son, we get all tight and take a pic. I’m not grabbing ass but if they hook onto my belt loop, etc, for the length of a pic I am not weird about it.

    ReplyReply
  176. 176
    SFAW says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.):

    Why stop at “grope”? Might as well call it “near rape.” I’ve never heard of grabbing someone’s waist as “near rape,” but then again, I’ve never heard “grope” used in that fashion, either.

    On the other hand, I’m only in my 60s, and haven’t been to all seven continents, so I probably am just a dumbshit.

    And I guess we should be glad that he didn’t pinch her cheek, it sounds like it’s that most dreaded offense, the “face grope.”

    ReplyReply
  177. 177
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mike in Pasadena: The more out of power we are the purer we will prove ourselves!
    This is it! The final secret to success!

    ReplyReply
  178. 178
    hueyplong says:

    When only one side is playing to win, they win a lot.

    ReplyReply
  179. 179
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Mike J: It’s a fun little FPS. Only big problems I had with it we’re a lack of good servers in the Midwest and low population levels on the ones you could find that weren’t packed.

    ReplyReply
  180. 180
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Corner Stone: Gosh, even better, all of the Democratic House members and Senators could resign. That will show ’em! Or something.

    ReplyReply
  181. 181
    SFAW says:

    @Ladyraxterinok:

    How many media people do you think just don’t care about the consequences of a Trump era and are simply reveling in the opportunity to be 1st with a headline, true or not?

    Obligatory Balloon Juice response: “All of ’em, Katie.”

    ReplyReply
  182. 182
    Cacti says:

    @hueyplong:

    When only one side is playing to win, they win a lot.

    Republicans play to win elections.

    Democrats play to win non-existent good sportsmanship awards.

    ReplyReply
  183. 183
    Corner Stone says:

    Purity ponies here *do* remember the Senate tax fuck bill that recently went through was 51 to 49, right?

    ReplyReply
  184. 184
    Corner Stone says:

    @Mike in Pasadena: I agree. To be truly pure, all D pols should resign and send their campaign dollars to an RNC fund. The newer, and fewer, the candidates the more pure we can be as a party.

    ReplyReply
  185. 185
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Jeffro: Where did this groupthink come from that Mueller’s team will just make everything public. What is the basis for this repeated assertion. Please tell us all: what proof is there for this statement?

    ReplyReply
  186. 186
    SFAW says:

    @Mike in Pasadena:

    Gosh, even better, all of the Democratic House members and Senators could resign. That will show ’em! Or something.

    In Halberstam’s The Reckoning, about the rise and fall of Ford, and the rise of Nissan, he told of the time when the upper executives at Ford (one of whom was Robert McNamara, I think) were meeting to discuss various ways forward. One of the bean counters said that the company should close a significant number of plants, because they’d save a lot of money. One of the old-time car guys — not a bean counter, and had no love for them — piped up and said “Hey, why don’t we close ALL of the plants? That’ll REALLY save money!”

    Unfortunately, some Dems would read that comment, think he was serious, and adopt a political variant as their operational philosophy.

    ReplyReply
  187. 187
    Corner Stone says:

    We are in a fucking war. And we’re fighting on 1 and a half fronts at this point, apparently. I don’t know how many more Gillibrands we need but my money goes to “none”.

    ReplyReply
  188. 188
    Cacti says:

    @Corner Stone:

    agree. To be truly pure, all D pols should resign and send their campaign dollars to an RNC fund. The newer, and fewer, the candidates the more pure we can be as a party.

    I came when I thought about how hard that would heighten the contradictions.

    ReplyReply
  189. 189
    mouse tolliver says:

    @Cacti: That already happened. One of the anonymous accusations is someone noticed him looking at boobs.

    Do we really want our politicians to be bloodless replicants like Mike Pence?

    ReplyReply
  190. 190
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): It’s rather tiring seeing people lose their shit over Al Franken like he was the next Obama. Nice guy, sure. Second coming of liberalism? Unlikely.

    Clearly, he did dumb shit when he was a comedian (and well before he ever considered becoming a Senator, and way before anyone else took the idea of him being a Senator as a real thing), and the rules changed on him like they did everyone else. Sucks, but at least his reliable Democratic vote will be replaced with another reliable Democratic vote, and our base of women and the disempowered will not change because he’s gone.

    ReplyReply
  191. 191
    eemom says:

    @Cacti:

    “I don’t even let my husband put his arm around me in public”.

    Sounds like it was written by Mike Pence.

    ReplyReply
  192. 192
    Corner Stone says:

    @NobodySpecial: I’ll gather more wood for the fire if you’ll continue to tell us stories, Grandpa.

    ReplyReply
  193. 193
    SFAW says:

    @eemom:

    “I don’t even let my husband put his arm around me in public”.

    Sounds like it was written by Mike Pence.

    Does Mother know about Dense’s husband? Might come as a surprise to her.

    ReplyReply
  194. 194
    Mary G says:

    I’m with Dahlia Lithwick, one of the few good things on Slate: The Uneven Playing Fieldhttp://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/politics/2017/12/the_republicans_have_built_an_uneven_playing_field_of_morality.html

    Al Franken, many argue, should now resign. He should resign immediately because there are credible accusers (another emerged Wednesday), and because the behavior alleged is sufficiently abhorrent that there is simply no basis to defend him. In this parade of unilateral disarmament, Trump stays, Conyers goes, Moore stays, Franken goes.

    Is this the principled solution? By every metric I can think of, it’s correct. But it’s also wrong. It’s wrong because we no longer inhabit a closed ethical system, in which morality and norm preservation are their own rewards. We live in a broken and corroded system in which unilateral disarmament is going to destroy the very things we want to preserve.

    and

    And there is something deeply naïve, in a game of asymmetrical warfare, and in a moment of unparalleled public misogyny, in assuming that the feminist gets the seat before it happens.
    This isn’t a call to become tolerant of awful behavior. It is a call for understanding that Democrats honored the blue slip, and Republicans didn’t. Democrats had hearings over the Affordable Care Act; Republicans had none over the tax bill. Democrats decry predators in the media; Republicans give them their own networks. And what do Democrats have to show for it? There is something almost eerily self-regarding in the notion that the only thing that matters is what Democrats do, without considering what the systemic consequences are for everyone.

    ReplyReply
  195. 195
    SFAW says:

    @Corner Stone:

    I’ll gather more wood for the fire if you’ll continue to tell us stories, Grandpa.

    Campfire? Or for a pyre for Franken?

    ReplyReply
  196. 196
    Zelma says:

    I did not read the Atlantic piece until it was mentioned here that Franken’s offense was to put his arm around the author’s waist (when she asked for a picture) and squeezed her twice. And that was the sum of his evil behavior. And for this she gets to write an article for a major publication calling for him to resign from the Senate. How many times has every politician been asked for a picture, graciously agreed, and put his arm around the person who asked? This is sexual assault? No, this is ridiculous. There is sexual harassment and there is sexual assault. Both are unacceptable. This is neither. I admit that I have not followed the nature of the accusations against Franken closely and it is possible that some of them are more serious than this particular instance. I am certainly suspicious of the motives of the original accuser. But in this case, I am don’t see that Senator Franken’s actions warrant the punishment that has been called for. And I think the Atlantic was irresponsible in publishing this article.

    ReplyReply
  197. 197
    SFAW says:

    @Mary G:

    Thanks for posting that.

    ReplyReply
  198. 198
    Fair Economist says:

    Maybe next they’ll accuse Franken of groping women “in his heart”. At least then the “supporting” pictures won’t refute it.

    ReplyReply
  199. 199
    Yarrow says:

    @SFAW: Probably not a surprise.

    ReplyReply
  200. 200
    Ladyraxterinok says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): You talk as if dems were solely responsible for the attitudes 20 yrs ago. IT WAS A GIVEN IN THE WHOLE SOCIETY OF THE TIME. And women felt they had no choice but not to speak up.

    Remember what happened to Anita Hill and DIDN’T happen to Thomas.

    And don’t forget Biden’s seeming indifference to the whole matter in his position as chairmsn of the committee.

    Most of the NPR reporters on the hearing were women.
    Several remarked that the presence of women radically affected the coverage. And compared the publicity to the coverup of JFK’s ‘adventures’ by the ‘good ole boy’ reporters of his era. There were no women in the ‘boy’s club’ of politicians and journalists of the era.

    And several women ran for senate as a result of the hearing.

    ReplyReply
  201. 201
    Peale says:

    @mouse tolliver: if we do go the “more fundamentalist than those hypocritical Christians route” can we at least ask those calling for cullings and weedings to adopt the capacity for forgiveness?

    ReplyReply
  202. 202

    @NobodySpecial: If you think this will end with Sen Franken leaving, you’re not thinking this through enough. They will go after another Dem Senator. The only way to stop this is to go though a defined process(the ethics committee).

    ReplyReply
  203. 203
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Corner Stone: Let me tell you about how for the last four years BJ regulars have been telling everyone that in the end, what you want are reliable Democratic votes, and if you get them from the likes of Joe Manchin, Blanche Lincoln, and Jon Tester, that’s by god good enough.

    Franken isn’t the 51st vote, so he’s not any more important than any other D vote, and arguably less because he’ll be replaced with a D vote, unlike guys like Manchin. Stop being a drama whore. As the guy who Stuck used to claim was your sock puppet, you’re dragging my rep down with you.

    ReplyReply
  204. 204
    Fair Economist says:

    @Zelma:

    I did not read the Atlantic piece until it was mentioned here that Franken’s offense was to put his arm around the author’s waist (when she asked for a picture) and squeezed her twice. And that was the sum of his evil behavior. And for this she gets to write an article for a major publication calling for him to resign from the Senate. …And I think the Atlantic was irresponsible in publishing this article.

    “Irresponsible” is much too mild. Any reporter knows this is a non-story. Even the conservatives are making fun of this accusation. This was malicious – to Franken, to #MeToo, and maybe to both.

    ReplyReply
  205. 205
    eemom says:

    When I take photos with my DAUGHTER, she sometimes snarls that I’m squeezing her waist too much.

    So I guess I’m a pedophile — or would be if she weren’t 23 years old now.

    ReplyReply
  206. 206
    mouse tolliver says:

    @NobodySpecial: Except Al Franken was more than just a Democratic vote. He’s the reason Sessions had to recuse himself and we now have the Meuller investigation.

    ReplyReply
  207. 207
    SFAW says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    you’re dragging my rep down with you.

    No, you seem to be doing just fine without Corner Stone’s help.

    ReplyReply
  208. 208
    B.B.A. says:

    @Fair Economist: The accuser wrote the piece herself.

    My guess, for the two of you who haven’t pied me, is that Franken is sick of all the bullshit and decided to resign after this morning’s Politico piece, and warned the caucus so they could score some feminist points today before he makes the announcement tomorrow. That’s what I’d do if I were him (and I thank my lucky stars I’m not).

    ReplyReply
  209. 209
    Cacti says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    Stop being a drama whore.

    You forgot: And respect our women, bitch!

    ReplyReply
  210. 210
    eemom says:

    @Corner Stone:

    This fucking place.

    With apologies to different church lady if she’s still around, I got a reality check today on FB of all places. Quite simply, there is nobody in their right mind who is not horrified by the shitshow that Gillibrand et al pulled today.

    ReplyReply
  211. 211
    SFAW says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    Unrelated: how are things out your way? Are you an evacuee? (I have no idea where you are relative tot eh fires — my geographical “knowledge” of CA is limited to “SF north, LA south, San Diego REALLY south, Morro Rock somewhere in the middle” Anyway, I hope everything’s OK.

    ReplyReply
  212. 212
    Corner Stone says:

    @NobodySpecial: This is incoherent. Franken is not the lynchpin of the Senate. But he is certainly more important to “leftist” ideas and ideals than a similarly placed D Senator. They are coming after him for a reason. He’s not a generic D. He trashed Limbaugh and O’Reilly and Sessions and the upcoming FCC vote. Don’t act like you don’t know his name and Tammy Smith (D-MN) was going to have the same impact he has had. Ask Minnesotans what Klobuchar has done.

    ReplyReply
  213. 213
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Cacti: Don’t you have any more conspiracy theories to peddle about Gillibrand being a deep plant mole of the GOP?

    ReplyReply
  214. 214
    Corner Stone says:

    @B.B.A.:

    is that Franken is sick of all the bullshit and decided to resign after this morning’s Politico piece

    WIN!!!

    ReplyReply
  215. 215
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @tobie: Preach it!

    ReplyReply
  216. 216
    danielx says:

    @Mary G:

    Is this the principled solution? By every metric I can think of, it’s correct. But it’s also wrong. It’s wrong because we no longer inhabit a closed ethical system, in which morality and norm preservation are their own rewards. We live in a broken and corroded system in which unilateral disarmament is going to destroy the very things we want to preserve.

    True. The logical end of demanding purity above all (over one thing or another) from Democratic senators and representatives is….no elected Democratic representation. Republicans have their forms of purity tests (just ask Mark Meadows), but they never lose sight of their ultimate objectives. Which they are well on their way to achieving, be it noted. They don’t give a flying fuck about process or norms, they want to win.

    ReplyReply
  217. 217

    @SFAW: Thanks for the thoughts, we’re fine here. The closest fire(the one in the northeast Valley) is about 10 miles away as the crow flies.

    ReplyReply
  218. 218
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @NobodySpecial: Gillibrand isn’t a deep cover mole just a useful idiot.

    ReplyReply
  219. 219
    SFAW says:

    @B.B.A.:

    is that Franken is sick of all the bullshit and decided to resign after this morning’s Politico piece,

    Actually, it was because McConnell said he (Franken) should resign, and Franken said “Gee, if Mitch is saying that a pedophile would be OK in the Senate, but I’m not, then I must REALLY be BAD!”

    But thank fucking god that we can maintain our purity as a Party

    ReplyReply
  220. 220
    SFAW says:

    @🐾BillinGlendaleCA:

    OK, glad to hear you’re OK. (Which I kind of assumed, since if you weren’t, you wouldn’t be posting here. But still ….)

    ReplyReply
  221. 221
    NobodySpecial says:

    @Corner Stone: Most unconnected people know his name from SNL. Period. I speak with a great deal of confidence that D voters in Minnesota are going to continue to vote D despite Franken being gone. People of color and women are not going to desert over this, and many will have forgotten by the next election cycle.

    Color me also unimpressed by the arguments about weaponization. They didn’t manage it after Weiner’s Weiner troubles, and that was in a much more favorable news cycle for them. Plus, you know, they have a lot more creepy old white men on their side of the aisle. People need to stop losing their shit on GOP command.

    With that, have a good night!

    ReplyReply
  222. 222
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Peale: And it worked, beautifully.

    ReplyReply
  223. 223
    Cacti says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    I just hate it when bitch ass drama whores don’t show women the proper respect.

    Don’t you, brah?

    ReplyReply
  224. 224
    TenguPhule says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): If you want Franken to resign based on Republican allegations and unsourced ratfuckers, you might as well slit your wrists now and save the Fascist Death Squads the trouble.

    ReplyReply
  225. 225
    TenguPhule says:

    It’s coming and we on the left should think about how we plan to respond, FWIW.

    Republicans will accuse half of the Democrats of sexual harassment and the other half will gladly shoot them in the back.

    ReplyReply
  226. 226
    TenguPhule says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    Franken isn’t the 51st vote, so he’s not any more important than any other D vote, and arguably less because he’ll be replaced with a D vote, unlike guys like Manchin.

    You want to replace the commanding Admiral at the battle of Midway with a fucking ensign right out the academy.

    Our Senators are not interchangable cogs.

    ReplyReply
  227. 227
    SFAW says:

    @TenguPhule:

    I was thinking more along the lines of replacing Grant with McClellan, but yours is better.

    ReplyReply
  228. 228
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): I haven’t seen anyone here calling the accusers liars, or sluts, or whatever. What I’ve seen are people saying that Sen. Franken requested an ethics investigation so that the self-identified and anon accusers could tell their stories and he could tell his. If there is no process, then all Republicans need to do is accuse and then Democrats must automatically resign. But your willingness to mischaracterize what others have said makes it much easier to come to your conclusions. Question: if a woman accuses Senator Feinstein of touching said woman, then must DiFi immediately resign? Stands to reason.

    ReplyReply
  229. 229
    Corner Stone says:

    @NobodySpecial: You’re not really making a very powerful or even coherent argument for Franken resigning.

    ReplyReply
  230. 230
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Mike J: Wow, that’s real comfort, isn’t it. They’ll review future contributions. What a relief. Meaningless corporate pr bullshit.

    ReplyReply
  231. 231
    Mary G says:

    And let’s not forget that the Franken winning margin over Norm Coleman in 2008 was razor thin, and the Midwest is trending redder every year.

    @B.B.A.: I hope he resigns from the party, becomes an independent like Wilmer, and spends 24/7 on cable and the Sunday shows representing the NFLTG real progressive pundit this country sorely needs.

    ReplyReply
  232. 232
    TenguPhule says:

    @B.B.A.:

    That’s what I’d do if I were him (and I thank my lucky stars I’m not).

    I give Franken more credit then having to be declared guilty by water trial.

    ReplyReply
  233. 233
    TenguPhule says:

    @NobodySpecial:

    People of color and women are not going to desert over this, and many will have forgotten by the next election cycle.

    Funny, that’s what they said in 2010 too.

    How did that work out for us again?

    ReplyReply
  234. 234
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Cheryl Rofer: I agree with you completely. For far too long, men of all stripes got away with forcing themselves on women. It wasn’t right then and it isn’t right now. I’m glad women are speaking up. It’s sad that the system, or whatever one might call what went on for centuries in many societies, made it impossible for women to come forward without being shamed or losing their jobs or their careers or even their lives. It took me a long time to understand why rape victims did not report to the police, supervisors, etc. However, by listening to many women explain why, I now have some small understanding why they didn’t. Much of the same logic applies to the harassment situation. Even all of that history does not justify exercising summary judgment on a Senator who asked for an ethics investigation.

    ReplyReply
  235. 235
    Mike in Pasadena says:

    @Doug R:

    “There won’t be millions of protesters killed because after the first few thousand, it’ll look like Libya. Not how much of the armed forces would back trump up either, especially on the left coast.”

    The second sentence isn’t coherent as written, but I think you were saying that not much of the armed forces would back up Trump. You could not be more wrong. The military is completely in the bag for Trump. That goes for the military on the “left coast” as well. Try asking some actual military personnel. They will tell you, every single man and woman in uniform will tell you that they support Trump, their Commander-in-Chief, with fervor.

    ReplyReply
  236. 236
    Vhh says:

    @J R in WV: It’s Eastern Kentucky, poorest place in the US, where people vote to live in misery because it’s God’s will. No way the vote in a gay man.

    ReplyReply
  237. 237
    Vhh says:

    @Smedley Darlington Prunebanks (formerly Mumphrey, et al.): Unlike any of the wingnut abusers, Franken asked for an ethics investigation. The accusers get their say–but may have any “inducements” revealed. It’s called due process. Seems fair to me.

    ReplyReply
  238. 238
  239. 239
    raven says:

    I really appreciate all the input abut the Rose Bowl. I have been once so that get scratched off the list. Bedside the $ for the two of us to go there is the matter of the pups. I HATE leaving them, especially since Lil But requires so much daily care. I know it’s dumb but. . .

    ReplyReply
  240. 240
    SFAW says:

    @raven:

    I HATE leaving them, especially since Lil But requires so much daily care. I know it’s dumb but. . .

    No, it’s NOT dumb — it’s completely understandable and reasonable. (I mean that sincerely, not being ironic, snarky, etc.)

    ReplyReply
  241. 241
    Tata says:

    We need Franken right where he is. It’s important to differentiate between a smart guy who occasionally does something stupid like Franken, a run-of-the-mill creep like Weiner and monsters like Moore and Trump. They’re not the same and shouldn’t be treated the same way. We really need to get past the idea that the monsters get passes and the smart guy who occasionally does something stupid must be banished from our midst.

    ReplyReply

Leave a Comment

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *