As elected officials, we should be held to the highest standards—not the lowest. The allegations against Sen. Franken describe behavior that cannot be tolerated. While he’s entitled to an Ethics Committee hearing, I believe he should step aside to let someone else serve.
— Kirsten Gillibrand (@SenGillibrand) December 6, 2017
Today, I am calling on my colleague Al Franken to step aside. I’ve struggled with this decision because he’s been a good Senator and I consider him a friend. But that cannot excuse his behavior and his mistreatment of women. (thread)
— Senator Mazie Hirono (@maziehirono) December 6, 2017
Might be a good idea to listen to your female colleagues, Senator Franken.
rikyrah
Re Franken:
Banana in the tailpipe.
EVERYTIME I read one of his ‘ incidents’, I go ‘ REALLY’?
Shyt don’t make sense.
Let me make this clear, in care you don’t see it.
THEY WANT FRANKEN TO RESIGN BECAUSE FRANKEN ASKED FOR AN ETHICS INVESTIGATION.
IFFFF Franken Resigns, then NO Ethics Investigation.
If there is a FRANKEN Ethics Investigation, then how the phuck you NOT gonna have a ROY MOORE ETHICS INVESTIGATION (if he gets elected)?
See the Banana in the Tailpipe, you craven, weak muthaphuckas!
TenguPhule
FUCK NO.
Franken stays in the Senate.
I am sick and tired of Democratic Circular Firing Squads!
rikyrah
The Democrats get played EVERY PHUCKING TIME!!
HAVE A GODDAMNED SPINE!
Trentrunner Reckoning
I called for Conyers’ resignation. Some of y’all were defensive, and even personally insulting. But I was right, and Conyers has resigned.
I called for Franken’s resignation. Even worse invective hurled at me.
But I was right, and Franken will resign soon.
And you defended these harassers and assaulters.
Worth reflecting on the part you play, however small, in women not coming forward because THEY WON’T BE BELIEVED.
We must have values that trump tribalism.
Soprano2
I worry about this “always believe the women” stuff because of the way it can be weaponized, and I’m a woman! The Al Franken accusations have never rung “true” to me the way the rest of them have. Our “good guys” will quit, Republicans who are accused will just deny it and stay, and we’ll be poorer for it. Let the investigation proceed, then make a judgment.
Campionrules
A 7th accuser is clearly a bridge to far! 6 or less…eh. but a 7th! Time for a carefully, not at all coordinated, press release from our valiant female collegues in the Senate.
Franken should have been toast the minute their were multiple accusations. But you know, lying Republican Sluts, the pic was photoshopped!!! Yadda yadda yadda
BobbyK
Senator Franken should not resign. Let the investigation complete and see what the findings are. This guilty until proven innocent shit has got to stop.
Raoul
This thing seems to stink. Another claim, this time the day after Conyers (appropriately!) announces his departure, and more to the point of possible ratf-king, the day after Ronna Romney McDaniel and her RNC re-endorse serial teen-predating Roy Moore.
Maybe Franken really does have a problem. I obviously don’t know. But like rikyah, so far this whole setup stinks.
Franken is one of the top advocates for Net Neutrality. ?
Franken has gone after Sessions very effectively. ?
And after the total bullshit of MSNBC firing one of their people this week over one misinterpreted tweet pushed relentlessly by moral trash heap Cernovitch.
This. Thing. Smells. Of. Rats.
rikyrah
@Soprano2:
PUT.THEM.UNDER.OATH.
Let the investigation happen.
Cacti
“While he’s entitled to an ethics committee hearing, he should step aside before we know if any of the allegations against him are actually true.”
-Kirsten Gillibrand (D – for dumbass)
Cheryl Rofer
The thing about Franken is that that photograph of him exists. He was being a jerk, but a jerk in a particular way. Now that his female colleagues are calling on him to resign, I think it’s time. Some male senators are now calling for him to resign.
At some point, the trouble he causes to the Democratic Party is too much. Granted there’s not as much there as there is against Roy Moore, but it’s not possible to damp down the furore.
TenguPhule
Gillibrand and Hirono. Please kindly SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THIS.
The investigation hasn’t even fucking started. You want to condemn him without evidence, without trial, meanwhile the fucking Republicans ARE TRYING TO KILL AND IMPOVERISH US ALL.
And this why I am not confident about 2018. The party’s representatives has learned absolutely nothing from 2016.
Amaranthine RBG
I believe the women*
Except when it’s politically advantageous not to
For everyone who has wondered “How did Weinstein get away with his shit for so long?” Just look around at all the sleazy enabling shitheads who are urging Franken to stay put because they want him in Senate. That kind of cynical calculation —-yeah he’s a predator but he does something to benefit me — is what perpetuates this conduct. Look in the fucking mirror.
laura
What is it about Due Process that so offends some?
AL Franken earned and still has my respect as an elected official. Unless and until he’s been presented with a bill of particulars and has the opportunity to respond and defend himself, those calling for his immediate ouster can STFU.
different-church-lady
@Cheryl Rofer: Yet somehow the trouble Moore causes the Republican party is not too much.
What a world.
Cheryl Rofer
I’m also wondering if his colleagues who are calling for him to step down know something about his behavior. We’ve undergone a tremendous change just in the past month or two. Behavior that we collectively agreed should be ignored suddenly isn’t. The world looks different.
Cheryl Rofer
@different-church-lady: Totally agree. But we don’t want to be the Republican Party.
Cacti
@Cheryl Rofer:
Well, if a female colleague says it’s time, trifling things like guilt and innocence no longer matter.
schrodingers_cat
Fuck no. Where is your spine?
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Yeah no.
Gillibrand is an idiot.
Hirono is power seeking idiot leaving the Senate to run for governor.
schrodingers_cat
@Cheryl Rofer: No we want to be the permanent minority party.
rikyrah
@laura:
YES…THIS!
Cheryl Rofer
They’re all piling on now. Franken is done.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
You want us to be the Quaker party, apparently.
tobie
Kellyanne Conway seems to have known this Politico piece was coming. This morning she said on TV that a vote for Moore is fine, since Franken has not been unseated. This is a hit job. We’re falling for it as so many on the left and right fell for the hit job against HRC. Haven’t we learned anything from 2016?
Ithink
I ain’t for it until Senator Candidate Addicted-to-Teenage-Girls is either summarily defeated in the upcoming special election or is summarily expelled by the rest of the Republican controlled Congress. And even if either or both these things happens, I want the damn ethics investigation to run its course and let the chips fall where they may. We always have to have ridiculously high (moral & government) standards for Democrats while Republicans utilize the public & private spheres of American life to display the most foul of all human behavior. I just cannot even anymore w/ this both siderist nonsense!!!
Dave
@Cheryl Rofer: It’s tough I would like to see the investigation go forward if only to establish that as SOP. Then again GOP will cheerfully ignore that. And as other commentators mentioned “believe all women” will be weaponized. The modern right is nothing if not full of bad faith actors.
If Franken goes the Democrats damned well need a strategy going forward to deal with the sort of weaponized bad-faith that the GOP will use. I don’t really know what the right and smart response will be to all this.
different-church-lady
@Cheryl Rofer: I’m having a very hard time navigating my way between the gag being ripped off sexual abuse and the memory of the daycare center witch hunts of the 80s.
And believe me, this cognitive dissonance is going to be leveraged shamelessly by the deplorables.
Raoul
Also, too, the whole project “Veritas” thing at WaPo. ?
Definitely whiffs of O’Keefe-style smell around the Franken allegations.
PhoenixRising
@Cheryl Rofer:
Me too
Specifically I’m wondering if these colleagues are making a political calculation as to what they know that we don’t and the value of ripping off the band aid now.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer: So Civil War it is then. If our party is truly too stupid to live, might as well burn it all down and start over, AMIRITE?
Dave
@Dave: Ultimately it’s very difficult to have a functioning civic society when it rewards bad faith actors.
Cacti
@Dave:
James O’Keefe got caught red handed trying to do so.
SatanicPanic
@rikyrah: Yeah, let’s get Joe Biden to cross-examine them. That was so great last time it happened.
Amir Khalid
@Cheryl Rofer:
If there’s something to be known about Al Franken’s behaviour towards women, it will come out in the Ethics Committee’s findings, won’t it?
campionrules
The evolution of an accused Politician(If Democrat)
1.) The accuser is a Republican Slut
2.) The picture(s) are fake/photoshopped/staged
3.) These other accusers are republican plants/sluts/anonymous women
4.) No resignation until Trump/Republican Moron resigns first!
5.) We can’t afford to lose a Democrat the Republicans are trying to murder us all in our beds
6.) ……..well, maybe this one is ok, because he’ll be replaced by a Democrat Governor
7.) Profit.
Citizen_X
@Amaranthine RBG:
Oh, fuck you. What the hell is wrong with allowing due process?
MJS
@Cacti: If he’s not guilty, then Franken should say so, in no uncertain terms. Not, “I don’t recall it that way”, or “I don’t recall that happening”. He instead needs to say, “This woman/these women are lying in order to get me to resign my seat. I won’t do it. I am fully confident that the investigation will bear out that these women are lying.” That’s all he can do at this point.
JMG
@PhoenixRising: They have to know there’s more out there. The Senate is a small place.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
And it was just last week.
Apparently it has already vanished down the Democratic memory hole.
WASF
rikyrah
@tobie:
Didn’t I confirm for you in the last threat that you weren’t paranoid?
Chet
@rikyrah: Just out of curiosity, would this also be your stance if Franken’s accusers were Black women?
MomSense
@rikyrah:
I agree. Again the appropriate response to all of this is you first, Donald.
Conyers resigned and then Ryan was asked about Farenthold and he deflected.
Cacti
@Citizen_X:
It gets in the way of mob justice.
Brachiator
I think that Franken should step aside as well. He should step aside a day after Trump resigns.
Actually, maybe not even then. I don’t know that every incident of alleged harassment is equivalent or that every incident merits the same degree of punishment. It is certainly not the case that every ethical violation by a member of Congress would result in removal from office.
PhoenixRising
I’m wondering what party insiders who have worked w/Franken since he left SNL to enter politics might know that we don’t know (yet). Aside from shifting standards, and stipulating that the first accuser was a plant…what else is it best not to drip out week after week?
Yeah, I’d prefer to burn down the patriarchy today, but since that’s not gonna happen…
TenguPhule
@JMG:
Or they actually don’t and are just panicking like a flock of headless chickens because an unverified story on top of other unverified stories convinced them that mob justice should be Senate policy.
Gin & Tonic
So as of next week we will be faced with a Senator Roy Moore and no Senator Al Franken. So much fucking #WINNING.
themann1086
Honestly super embarrassed to read all the Franken defenses going on here. Didn’t realize we were Breitbart but for the left now…
ETA: also, the calls for “due process” and “innocent until found guilty in a court of law” ring pretty fucking hollow given that I would hope none of y’all would hold Trump or Moore’s accusers to the same standard. Be better.
TenguPhule
@MJS:
And this would convince who, exactly?
Cookie monster
He’s toast. To me, the accusations are sketchy as hell, but I just don’t see how he survives this.
I guess the poll numbers for Jones are close enough they think it might help, but IMO sets a bad precedent, as I’m sure the next Dem senator to be accused will be from a state with a GOP Gov.
SatanicPanic
@Cheryl Rofer: We had this exact thing happen in San Diego. Bob Filner had been a serial groper for years in Congress, and congressional Dems had covered for him. He then got elected as San Diego Mayor. Us liberals were super excited. FINALLY San Diego was a blue city. FINALLY. But Filner kept on groping, and now that he was here, in our city, not off in DC he couldn’t keep the press off the story. They had a f*cking field day. Guess which major city is back to being the last city in America to have a Republican mayor? San Diego! The party messed up bigtime and I’m glad some people learned their lesson. This only gets worse for Franken. People can complain about witch hunts, or ratf*cking, but the writing is on the wall. He is done.
Gin & Tonic
@different-church-lady: Bingo. Let’s ask Tookie Amirault about mob justice.
TenguPhule
@themann1086: Show us some FUCKING EVIDENCE and an accuser that isn’t a Republican or an unknown source.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@TenguPhule: You really believe that voters in Ohio are going to say to themselves, “Well, I was going to vote for Sherrod Brown, but Al Franken resigned, so I won’t”? Or Rosen voters in Nevada? Or Sinema voters in AZ?
john (not mccain)
@Trentrunner Reckoning: Fuck you and every other Trump-lovin’ pervert in the world.
Sloane Ranger
I thought that Franken had denied this latest allegation?
Shouldn’t Dems standard response be all women making allegations deserve a hearing. Franken has already asked for an Ethics investigation into his actions. We await the outcome of that. Roy Moore and President Trump should follow Senator Franken’s example. If they are innocent, as they claim, the investigation will vindicate them?
schrodingers_cat
New nyms and old supporters of unilateral surrender out in full force. Daily dose of stupid on Balloon Juice is making stupid. Have fun with your tajiya (ritual Shia’ bloody self flagellation on Moharrum)
kindness
I would prefer that Al just say he won’t run again. Especially since Republicans aren’t willing to act the same way to their members. You see, even though I can say I want a Democratic vote in the Senate some might say that is the same as Roy Moore. And it is not the same as Roy Moore. Roy Moore molested a 14 year old girl.
@Trentrunner Reckoning: Dude you are pretty boastful there. Might I suggest you aren’t right and start from there.
VincentN
Al Franken can ignore these requests to step down if he truly believes the investigation will vindicate him.
In the meantime, the Democrats get credit for condemning sexual misbehavior.
trollhattan
@Cheryl Rofer:
Add Harris, Hassan, Baldwin and McCaskill to the list. I agree, he’s done. I don’t agree with the process but nobody asked me, either.
I’m really hating this new govern-by-Twitter thing.
TenguPhule
@themann1086: Unlike Franken, there’s actual FUCKING EVIDENCE of Trump and Moore’s bad behavior. So fuck off your equivalence bullshit.
Cheryl Rofer
Politics isn’t a court of law. Holding a political office is not the same as being stripped of civil liberties. So due process is not the only determinant.
Politics is about perceptions. That is a big part of what Democrats are considering when they are saying Franken should resign. An Ethics Committee investigation would be a bleeding wound. Republicans would weaponize everything they could, and the media would go along. We can’t afford that if we want to impeach President Grab-em.
I agree that “Believe the women” is open to misuse. Franken’s problem is that there is enough there (the photo, in particular) that there is a question. And senators may know more.
I like Al Franken. I’m not sure I’d support him for President; that would have depended on a lot of things I just don’t know now. The governor of Minnesota is a Democrat, who will appoint a democrat to serve out Franken’s term. End the bleeding now.
tobie
@rikyrah: Yes, you did, and I’m grateful for that. I’ll add to my suspicions about this story that I think it’s not accidental that these attacks have been against a black civil rights icon (Conyers) and an unapologetic Jewish liberal (Franken). I’m missing Shirley Chisholm and Bella Abzug right now. With their fighting spirits, they’d have some choice words about this.
jayjaybear
@TenguPhule: Shakers. The Shakers were the ones who went extinct because they forbade any kind of sexual contact. Made some great furniture, though.
Brachiator
@Cheryl Rofer:
No idea. If so, this might merit a private conference with Franken, not public grandstanding and declarations that he must go.
And if they “know something,” it should have to be serious. As it is, the GOP has decided that politics is more important than anything. If the Democrats want to step into the noose to prove their moral purity, the Republicans will happily hang them.
And then the Republicans will happily demean and oppress the women the Democrats claim that they respect.
TenguPhule
@VincentN:
You must be new to American politics.
We will get no credit for this and all of the blame.
trollhattan
@themann1086:
I can actually see your concern face. Pence, is that you?
Raoul
Sounds like he’s out. I don’t like how this is going down, but dammit, Dems need to roast the GOP over a continuous open spit of hellfire for Moore.
And, Gov. Dayton needs to appoint an ass-kicking woman for the seat.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Oh FFS.
/Facepalm
campionrules
@TenguPhule: A congressional aide to a Democrat was the last accuser I believer. But suuuuuure, I’m sure she’s a sekrit Roger Stone Republican Plant. Save the women blaming for your local Young Republicans meeting
Soprano2
If he resigns without an investigation I predict the next one they go after will be from a state with a Republican governor, since they’ll see how easy it is to get Democrats to throw someone under the bus.
If he’s guilty he should go; I want an investigation to confirm it.
Yarrow
@Cheryl Rofer: :
I’m wondering the same thing.
When is this ethics investigation supposed to start? He called for one weeks ago. Is it already underway?
Stan
This is all so obvious and y’all are missing it.
Gillibrand is kneecapping one of her rivals for the 2020 presidential nomination. This is a play right out of the corrupt Albany O-Connell-Corning machine of which Gillibrand is a product.
Franken may well be guilty as hell. I don’t know and neither do any of us. And maybe he should resign.
But THIS is what Gillibrand is up to, no more and no less.
different-church-lady
@Raoul: Right. So as of Dec. 12, we will find out if the calculation was correct.
Cacti
All of the new nyms on the board agree.
Franken must go.
What a coinkydink.
MazeDancer
I believe the women.
As in the Women of SNL.
They say Franken is not a groper, abuser, harasser, or any of the scummy things women in comedy know about. Which means he is not. If there was one credible story from women with whom he worked in comedy, then I, too, would be calling for him to step down. But there is not.
Franken accusations continue to feel like a set-up. First accuser still is a Hannity pal who groped her guitarist on stage.
And I agree with everyone who says Franken has to say: I didn’t do this. Loudly.
But seems like we’re going to lose Franken. Because GOP are relentless and free of morals. And Dems demand the illusion of perfection not the reality of this is a frame-up.
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: In a different time and place, Republicans used to refer to Dems as “Surrendercrats”. I’m now of the opinion that frankly that was not only warranted but dead-on accurate.
Sab
@TenguPhule: Two ambitious idiots who want him out of the way are against him, two right wing entertainers are suddenly offended by a USO skit older than his participation in USO, and a couple of anonymous allegedly Minnesota state fair goers.
I am not denying women victims. I am denying Republican hacks. You haven’t shown me anything else, and all of his regular female colleagues over thirty odd years vouch for him as a wonderful colleague. So I am supposed to disregard them in favor of a couple Fox news employees? Seriously?
Cheryl Rofer
Cheryl Rofer
@Brachiator: Perhaps there have been private conversations. We wouldn’t know.
Trentrunner Reckoning
Franken’s office has announced Franken will be making an announcement tomorrow.
(For the record, today’s accuser was a Democratic consultant, not some Republican plant.)
Maybe it will help those here overcome with anger to understand that it is GOOD that these women are believed and that the perpetrator is held accountable.
This is more important than tribalism.
MattF
Copying my comment below:
I have a suspicion that professional politicians don’t care much for Franken. ‘Comedian’ isn’t the usual starting point on the path to ‘Senator with a national constituency’– and although he makes a competent liberal Senator, supporting him turned out (perhaps not surprisingly) to be risky. That said, I don’t think he should resign. Yet.
The Moar You Know
@Cacti: Stunning, isn’t it? I think I’m about to find out how many nyms that pie filter can hold.
TenguPhule
@campionrules:
A woman who claims she was a congressional aide to a Democrat. Only there is no way verify this because Politico didn’t name her.
But keep chasing that football Charlie Brown.
tobie
@Stan: Yes, Gillibrand is running in 2020, and no she will not have my vote. She has done nothing to earn it.
Bobby Thomson
I think we have to consider the possibility that DJ Franken had a substance abuse problem that he cleaned up before running for Senate. Also, I suspect the Senators calling for his head know the aide in question personally.
I’ve been trying to envision this ethics hearing. If everyone is making shit up it falls apart fast. Or does it? Do we get the optics of Democrats savaging a witness while Republicans offer tissues? Best case for Franken is Tweeden and the other non-anonymous women recant or change their stories – which isn’t necessarily the best case for women. Worst case is we get more Bidenesque performances – even if Franken is cleared under those circumstances he’s tainted.
Sab
I have defended TenguPhule for months. I now accept his phulishness and I am pieing him. First time for pie.Sad day.
TenguPhule
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
WRONG. A woman CLAIMING to be a Democrat but which can’t be verified because her name was withheld by Politico.
Lies are running around the world while the truth is getting its boots on.
satby
Well, I am a woman, and person who was raped long ago, and I don’t always “believe the women”. And I think the Franken stories stink to high heaven of a smear job.
I wish people weren’t so damn easy to fool, but obviously it’s as big a problem in the left as in the right.
We have key votes coming up, and we’re taking scalps on our own team for at worst minor transgressions compared to the nearly constant pedophilia on the opposing team. That doesn’t make me feel morally superior, it makes me feel like I support the stupid party.
JMG
@Stan: What about the other nine Senators who said the same thing? They all running for President too? Look folks, no Senator or Representative is indispensable. If the Democratic Party cannot survive without Al Franken, it won’t survive period. This is a judgment by his peers. Is it part cold politics? Sure, they’re politicians. So is he. Don’t make him a hero just because you agree with his politics.
Arky Vaughan
I knew this would happen
Franken will resign
Trump will remain occupant of White House
Moore will be in the Senate
It is wrong for Franken to resign
This is a hit job
Republicans are evil and Democrats are week stupid losers
what are we supposed to do ?
different-church-lady
I am very happy with this moral victory of a Republican President with a legacy of sexual assault allegations, a future Republican senator with a legacy of sexual pedophilia allegations, a Republican house, a Republican senate, and Republican supreme court.
Because the LAST thing we want to do is turn into Republicans — they don’t have any standards, and they keep getting punished for it.
MattF
Pie! Pie! Pie!
Mike in Pasadena
Over a ten year period as a senior lawyer, I hired 5 women lawyers and supervised seven women lawyers because they were good. I doubt I would do so today. Too dangerous. So, I guess this has been great for women? I can’t be the only man that can see the danger of working around any woman. Okay, let the shouting begin, but it is the truth. In the same period, I had two women lawyers I was not supervising come to me and proposition me. Both times i ran from the room knowing no good would come of that situation. Scary. Glad I retired. So now I realize I am banned from this site for life. Bye.
Amaranthine RBG
There’s only one accuser
Okay, there’s two accusers but they’re both Republicans
Okay, there’s 5 accusers but most are Republicans
Okay there’s 6 accusers and one was aide to prominent Democrat so …
DUE PROCESS!!!
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Fuck you, I’ve been here like ten years and know at least on regular here IRL.
TenguPhule
@Sab: You and I are on the same page here, are you perhaps arguing with somebody else?
Sab
@Sab: Yikes. I pied the wrong guy. That’s why I don’t pie. Sorry TP. Jeez I am embarrassed.
Davebo
@Mike in Pasadena:
Drama much?
Betty Cracker
@Cheryl Rofer: I’ve wondered the same. I believe one of the women who came forward worked for a Democratic politician. Folks are dismissing her account because reasons, but maybe Franken’s colleagues know her and believe her story.
TenguPhule
@Sab: I suspect you are confusing me with someone else.
Cacti
Democrats are content to run one of their own out of town on the word of anonymous accusers and without due process.
But they wonder why they always fucking lose politically.
Head, meet desk.
Fair Economist
Sometimes the Founders knew what they were talking about. Note: with Weinstein, Spacey, and Moore, the accusers weren’t anonymous.
VincentN
@TenguPhule:
So you don’t think there are people out there looking at all of this and going ‘a pox on both your houses’ and then tuning out? Yes, there is no moral equivalency between Moore and Franken but enough people watch politics on a superficial level that we can’t afford ‘both-sidering’ them out of politics altogether.
I don’t like the idea of these types of accusations being weaponized either regardless of whether they’re true or not in this case. But as Cheryl says politics is perception and responding to Franken’s detractors with “Trump can go first!” just makes us look childish. If your child cried, “Tommy down the street did way worse and he wasn’t punished!” that probably wouldn’t affect anything.
Gin & Tonic
@tobie:
If it’s Gillibrand v. Trump, you’ll vote for Wilmer? Jill? We see how well that worked out last time.
Raoul
Not sure if this is a plus or a minus.
I hope this backfires on the GOP, who, conventional wisdom might suggest, would aim to split-ticket the two Senate seats. Amy Klobuchar is likely untouchable. GOP would, under more normal times, argue that we should have a mixed delegation to D.C.
But what may end up happening is actually a larger mid-term turnout in MN. That bodes ill for the MN GOP, who I think will have their hands full trying to defend their 2016 state House flip. Higher turnout probably helps with Governor, too.
All of this in the backdrop of Trump being at 32% approval (and maybe headed lower).
TenguPhule
@Sab: It happens. Don’t worry about it. We’re all in a fury today. As far as I can tell we’re both on the same page that this is a Setup on Franken and its goddamn Bullshit.
Yarrow
I guess Cole’s not going to do a rant thread on this issue.
Trentrunner Reckoning
Dara Lind at Vox:
Major Major Major Major
@Trentrunner Reckoning: OMG so sad that you keep making new names to avoid people who are trying to ignore you.
JR
I like Franken, but I cannot support the ends justifying the means. That’s how the GOP operates. To follow them is a sure path to madness.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
I guess that means I wasn’t talking about you, Einstein.
Miss Bianca
Well, great. This is making me sick. Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right…
Fuck Gillibrand. And fuck the other virtue-signallers. If we can’t stand the notion of waiting for an ethics investigation before we start tossing Democratic congresspeople out on their asses, then we are doing the Republicans’ work for them. The stupid BURNS.
Trentrunner Reckoning
@Mike in Pasadena: 99% sure you’re Dabney Coleman in 9 to 5.
Mary G
I actually thought the anonymous accusers who were third and fourth sounded believable, but I disagree he should resign. Not until Trump does.
Trentrunner Reckoning
@Major Major Major Major: You know who I am.
And you now know that I was right.
I’ll leave you to reflect and, perhaps, feel requisite shame.
TenguPhule
@VincentN: You think Franken would be the end of this?
If Franken resigns, EVERY DEMOCRATIC SENATOR AND HOUSE REP BECOMES THE NEXT TARGET. EVERY MAYOR, STATE SEAT, BOARD & PRESIDENTAL CANDIDATE WILL BE FAIR GAME FOR REPUBLICAN/RUSSIAN RATFUCKING.
And people are going to stop believing the women. All of them. You think you’re helping their movement for justice but all you’re doing is poisoning it.
Betty Cracker
@Mike in Pasadena: We don’t ban people for beclowning themselves. It would be tumbleweeds around here if we did — on the front page and in comments. That said, I bet you’re not the only one who’s glad you’re retired. I work for myself in part because I hated dealing with asshole bosses.
Fair Economist
@Major Major Major Major: Might the most recent name be prophetic? Seems like the site should have policies for people who evade pie filters.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
I am not laughing, not even smiling, I am merely acknowledging a rare instance of Karma
Vor
@campionrules: Which Democrat was this anonymous person an aide to? Joe Lieberman? Zell Miller? Let’s not jump too fast.
West of the Cascades
@Gin & Tonic:
Baud!
Trentrunner Reckoning
Chris Hayes on Twitter:
different-church-lady
@JR: Path to madness? At this point all we’re doing is creating hedge mazes in the middle of the madness campus lawn.
Major Major Major Major
@Fair Economist: Not a bad idea.
aimai
@Mike in Pasadena: Good thing you retired.
Fair Economist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
You are a better man than I.
different-church-lady
@Trentrunner Reckoning: Unfortunately it’s not creating any difference in what kind of legislation gets passed.
Amaranthine RBG
@Mike in Pasadena:
I did the same thing years ago but all the lithe young men I hired found me irresistible, too.
What to do?
TenguPhule
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
And you did the Republican’s work for them.
How does it feel to be a fucking Quisling?
Cacti
@Vor:
Who the hell knows?
We just have to her status as a Congressional aide on faith.
aimai
@TenguPhule: Just because they didn’t name her doesn’t t mean they didn’t know who she was. You don’t understand anonymity, do you?
Peale
@TenguPhule: I discovered feminism just in time to hobble my enemies and plan to return to hating on that Clinton bitch once this is over.
ruemara
@satby: I can’t deny I agree with you, but we don’t have a media on our side. We are getting a lot of growing bad press. If we had a decent media, this wouldn’t be so necessary.
@Mike in Pasadena: You’re banned for life due to stupidity. It’s not about working with women, it’s called keeping your hands to yourself. If you can’t handle that, that’s your problem.
I’ve been on the fence as the number of women has grown. I have no doubts that some of these are incidents being used to remove Franken. Sorry, but that’s the world we live in. But his conduct is being equated – wrongly – with Moore. That’s a liability right now. I don’t know if he’s the villain as portrayed, but I think as we’re at 6 accusers, he’s gotta step down. But honestly, if I were him, I’d be seeing my accusers in court if I don’t believe this actually happened. Democrats are going to have to behave as if you’re black for a while. You have no room for mistakes in this new world and I think we’re going to keep hearing more about democratic lawmakers. Notably, we’re not hearing much about republican ones and the ones we do hear about, they’re not paying any price.
LurkerNoLonger
@MazeDancer: It’s a real shame what they did to him, but the world isn’t a fare place.
Miss Bianca
@Amaranthine RBG: you don’t often make me laugh, but when you do….
PJ
@Cheryl Rofer: Due process is now a bleeding wound? WTF? I’m no fan of Bill Clinton, but even I don’t think he should have just thrown in the towel when Republicans started talking about impeachment. Should Hillary have quit when the investigation into her emails started? Give me a break. The “bleeding” you are talking about is happening because Republicans smell blood. They have and will continue to attack Democrats and Democratic policies with whatever tools are available and effective, be it lies, truth, or BS. As long as Democrats cave, and are urged to cave by other Democrats when lies and BS are being spread about Democrats, the Republicans will keep at it. The only thing that will actually stop them is when due process is finished – when their Whitewater or impeachment or emails investigation turns up bupkis, and even then they will keep raising the issue, as they still do with Hillary. Caving on unsupported rumors is only going to embolden them. Meanwhile, not one Republican accused of harassment or rape or child molestation will resign or admit to anything until someone comes up with photographic evidence of them with little boys, and maybe not even them.
The willingness of Democrats to kneecap themselves is so dismaying.
Trentrunner Reckoning
@TenguPhule: You seem intemperate and currently governed by coarsening malice, so perhaps it’s not the time for a question that expects sober consideration, but:
Why do you believe Moore’s accusers and not Franken’s?
(Actually, a question for anyone who thinks Franken shouldn’t resign.)
Raoul
@Cheryl Rofer: One correction: the Governor will appoint a replacement till the next general election. Franken wasn’t up until 2020.
satby
@Miss Bianca: AGREED! If the Democratic party wants to stand for higher quality values, let’s start with due process and a person is innocent until proven guilty. Instead of having online mob rule.
I have to get off the net now, this shit just gets me ill, and the coming government shutdown is promising a very bleak Christmas for a lot of people who depend on SS and government workers, and people are obsessing over bullshit.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
Meanwhile, on the right, this is all a dastardly plan to humiliate Roy Moore (Leon Wolf is part of The Blaze, which I guess is still a thing)
Kay
@Amaranthine RBG:
Guffaw.
Frank Wilhoit
Never, never, never, never, never give a scalp.
There is no other aspect, no other consideration.
Never give a scalp. Not one.
grubert
Franken should stay right where he is. This is BS sourced from Politico, completely anonymous and means nothing in the long run.
I am tired of weak-kneed Democratic politicians. But as there are only two parties and voting Republican is right out.
A lot of new commenters using the “we” word.
different-church-lady
I am reminded of the kinds of comments Daily Kos offered when the Weiner scandal first emerged. There was a lot of “proof” that he could not have made the tweet, simply because a known low-level deplorable stumbled across it.
In a sane world it would be very easy to either wait out an investigation, or urge Franken out gently.
We don’t live in a sane world.
Uncle Ebeneezer
The GOP has shown that it can weaponize ANYTHING. They’ve managed to pervert a commitment to Voting Rights, to actually prevent people from voting. They’ve taken Religious Freedom and used it to promote oppression. This is not new. This is What. They. Do. We can’t let the potential-for-abuse-by-the-GOP be the standard for determining Dem principles. We’ve been saying for the past couple years how the Democratic Party desperately needs to define itself and show voters why we are better than Republicans, and when we have a chance to do so, so many people are humming and hawing and throwing out the same old excuses that Rape Culture has provided us forever. This is a chance to begin to change our culture for the better and show that our party is willing to take the tough, and risky steps of leading the way.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
@Arky Vaughan:
Yes, but at least we can tell ourselves how good and pure we are. We let go of an effective weapon in the defense of our Democratic values and watch while conservatives rule us to ruin.
So, uh, win-win?
Fair Economist
@aimai:
If it’s anonymous because it’s shielded by a credible source, then it’s a legit accusation. It’s not. If Gillibrand knew the accuser and said she believed her it would be a different story. Right now, though, it’s as credible an accusation as a claim that Moore molested me as a boy (I was in Alabama and the right age.)
tobie
@Gin & Tonic: God willing we’ll have choices besides Gillibrand in the primary. And for what it’s worth, she’s been courting Wilmer and Stein voters for some time. It’s HRC voters she’s managed to piss off time and again.
Stan
@JMG:
No, the other nine are backing Gillibrand’s (and maybe Harris’s) play. Having nine rather than one is smart politics, obviously.
To be clear, while I like the senator that Al Franken is, he’s no ‘hero’ to me. No politician is – I know too many of them up close. Even the ones who look great in public are more often than not assholes.
All I am saying is, this is about Gillibrand’s 2020 campaign. The rest is irrelevant to her calculations. I say that with great confidence. If you knew where she comes from you’d be confident too.
All of this can be true regardless of whether Franken is guilty or not and regardless of where he resigns or not.
Villago Delenda Est
These people are doing exactly what Roger Stone wants them to do.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady: I remember Jon Stewart saying it couldn’t possibly be Anthony because they were roommates in college and his dick wasn’t that big.
TenguPhule
@aimai:
We just learned LAST WEEK about a ratfucking operation that kicked off the day AFTER Moore’s story broke in the Wapo.
All of the accusations against Franken have been Republicans or anonymous. The evidence has not supported their stories. Their stories don’t match up with a pattern of behavior.
Do you not see something wrong with this pattern?
satby
@TenguPhule: and this is also true, thank you. This undercuts actual victims of sexual assault and rape. Let me give you all a pro tip, dodging a kiss isn’t anywhere near dealing with an actual, forcible assault; and I bitterly resent those of you who equate them.
Kay
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No one knows how it will turn out, politically, on balance.
Maybe the senators made a good political call. Maybe they’re like Evil Hillary and very devious and scheming
I certainly hope so! Thank fucking god if they are. I’ll cheer.
Trentrunner Reckoning
NARAL:
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Give me a break. You are your idiot buddies here are smearing everyone who disagrees with you.
Cacti
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Right. If we just signal our virtue a little louder this time, surely the public will see the light about the GOP.
What color is the sky in your world?
Lurking Canadian
@Betty Cracker: Franken has categorically denied the most recent claim. Not “I don’t remember it like that” but “That’s not what happened”.
If there is no fire under all this smoke, one person who knows that for sure is Al Franken. If he comes out swinging tomorrow when he “makes his announcement” and claims that the whole thing is bullshit and he demands an investigation…well OK, let’s investigate it. He would only resign if he knows worse is coming.
Betty Cracker
That scheming bitch Tom Perez also said Franken should step down. ?
Major Major Major Major
Trentrunner Reckoning:
So true! So sad!
satby
@Trentrunner Reckoning: oh, and a special fuck you to you.
TenguPhule
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
You mean aside from the fact Wapo went out of their way to verify the details, have supporting evidence, third party testimony and Moore was banned from a shopping mall for his behavior?
Gee, I wonder.
Tell me again about all the supporting evidence and third party testimony against Franken.
I’ll wait.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Would you like a trowel for the Preparation H for your butt hurt, cupcake?
VincentN
@TenguPhule:
I do not want to see a world where there is an arms race of both parties slinging real and fabricated accusations at each other until everybody simply decides to discount all accusations altogether.
I also don’t want to see a world where only women with signed confessions and video recordings of sexual assault/harassment will be taken seriously. I don’t want another Anita Hill debacle from either side.
Maybe ousting a public official should require more due process than that of an actor or entertainment mogul. Fine. Make that argument without calling the accusers Republican moles and liars. Maybe they are but that’s no different from how Republicans would defend their accused. Argue instead we need time to verify details and such because the good people of (insert state) deserve to know the whole truth for good or ill.
B.B.A.
If he’s guilty, he must go.
If he’s innocent, he still does us more good outside the Senate than in the Senate. We need more and better ratfuckers, and an Emmy-winning writer would be a major asset to any ratfucking operation.
Trentrunner Reckoning
@satby: Way harsh, Tai.
Tony P.
If Al Franken resigns before He, Trump is impeached, I will never again support the Democratic Party.
What’s the best way to convey that message to the DNC, the Democratic senators who have called for his resignation, and to Al Franken himself?
–TP
Sab
@TenguPhule: I will miss all those lovely pie comments. Maybe I should pie someone innocuous to be able to read the pies stuff, but sometimes the innocuous commenter have new and interesting things to say.
I am plump. I should give up on even virtual pies.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Don’t you mean snowflake? You idiots have started thinking like deplorables, you might as well start talking like them.
trollhattan
@Betty Cracker:
As a paid member of Amalgamated Clowns Local 666 I thank you for being allowed to remain in the sandbox. Can we at least ban the cats?
gene108
Gotta pick your battles.
We can’t be the Party for Women’s Rights and then try to defend Franken beyond a point.
If his colleagues think his presence in the Senate is a drag on the Party, he needs to step down.
I assume you don’t get to be a Senator, without some level political calculation on what makes you look good and what helps your election chances.
I don’t think this reaction is just a rush to see whose pony is purest. There is probably some level of political calculation involved.
And yes, Republicans will do worse and not give a damn. But I think the issue is to be able to draw a contrast between us and them and make sure the media can grok that there is a difference between the Parties on this issue.
There was an underlying them emerging, after Iran-Contra that Republican administrations had a corruption problem. Republicans turned that on its ear by accusing Clinton of every imagined allegation they could think of and the media basically equated Whitewater, and extra-marital affairs, with Watergate and Iran-Contra.
We now have Trump stinking up the join after the squeaky clean Obama Administration.
We are in a position to draw a clear distinction so bright and vivid even the MSM could see it, and we can set the narrative for a change about how Democrats stand for things.
Edit: For a lot of liberal leaning – not Bernie Sanders soc$alist revolution wanting folks – who think we should be fairer to the less fortunate and have the rich pay for it, there is a lot of wonder at what exactly do the Democrats stand for. Here is a chance to send a message.
TenguPhule
@Uncle Ebeneezer:
Virtue signaling is a luxury reserved for a solid majority.
rikyrah
@TenguPhule:
Uh huh
Uh huh
Raoul
@kindness:
Before his colleague pile-on today, I’d have agreed. As a Minnesotan, though, and as I think more on this, as the allegations (and yes they are that, and I’ve weighed in above on what I think the ceracity of some of them are) have mounted, Al staying – even as a lame duck – would put the MN Governor’s office as well as a real shot to win back the MN House, at serious risk. Yes, over perceptions. But as Cheryl points out, they do still matter to a lot of more average, non-obsessed voters (ie: not Juicers, not twitter-consumers).
We here in MN have to either hold the Governor’s mansion, or win back the House (both, please, FSM!) or we will in a matter of seconds start a very fast slide to becoming Scott Walker’s first cousins. It shocked the shit out of me when we lost both the MN House and Senate last year. We are this close to a GOP trifecta here and it’d be devastating. The wounds Franken has now taken from his peers makes him too risky for local/state politics. Pisses me off that they all rushed to freak out today. But we can’t go back in time.
John Carter
From a comment on DU:
In a lengthy statement posted on Facebook, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) said she was “shocked” and “disappointed” by several women’s allegations that Franken inappropriately touched them. She was joined by Sens. Mazie Hirono (D-Hawaii), Claire McCaskill (D-Mo.) and Maggie Hassan (D-N.H.), who made their views known on Twitter.
Uh, maybe I’m wrong but isn’t Gillibrand et.al. supposed to represent the views of her (their) constituents and not decide what’s best in her (their) opinion without hearing from those she (they) supposedly represent?
Doing what she (they) are doing, is not so different from what the asshole in charge does, namely think he’s the only one who can make a decision without full evidence and that should be enough. I’m pretty sure that’s not what America is all about…or maybe she (they) are taking a page from the Republican playbook?
Gillibrand and your associates, you need to first and foremost put aside ANY possibly misconstued sexist feelings you seem to be exhibiting and see what the PEOPLE you represent feel before opening your mouth by playing judge, jury and executioner.
Or am I wrong?
*******************************
These 6 Female Senators have just done more damage to the Democratic Party than the Clinton/Sanders infighting or Russians or Republicans could hope for. The vast number of comments supporting AL and disparaging the 6 seem to be asking why these women think they’re holier-than-thou or turning the other cheek or hang him BEFORE they really KNOW anything will make Americans respect Democrats more or whatever.
Playing nice since ST. Ronnie has gotten the Democrats and America NOTHING.
Nelle
Nope, nope, nope. Having an investigation is the best way that “me,too” doesn’t get weaponized against opponents.
Pre-emptive resignations and firings play into the hands of the “Purity police” on one side and turn the Congress over to more deviants.
Seriously, think. Don’t get stampeded.
bemused
David Frum tweeted on Nov. 20: So who is ready for a world in which Dems force Al Franken to resign out of Senate and Republicans vote Roy Moore in.
jay
This is kind of hysterical.
First, the left really isn’t doing that great resisting. It just kind of happens as a reflex. Second, don’t count on the midterms when the other party is actively trying to suppress your ability to turn out voters. Third, what the fuck does any of this matter if you can’t unseat a party and a president that will gut women’s issues and rights? What have you won when you clearly stand to lose so much more in the short and long term?
NOTHING.
You will get your asses kicked repeatedly because you are playing the game with people who have no shame, no morals, no qualms about destroying their political opponents. The truth doesn’t matter to them at all. They sure as fk don’t care what you think about it.
So how do you beat these guys? Because Pelosi, Schumer, the Democratic Party, and the online left don’t seem to have a clue. And if you can get your opponents to gut themselves for you, well, why not? Party of raggedy old fools.
different-church-lady
@VincentN: I’m giving up on a solution. I think we, as a species, are just doomed to lurch from under-reaction to over-reaction to the next over-reaction. There’s no curing power struggles.
Cheryl Rofer
@PJ:
That’s not what I said. To be more explicit, the information and testimonies and Republican commentary on an investigation would be a bleeding wound. In any case, due process applies to criminal proceedings, as someone quoted above. Removal by one’s party from office is not a criminal proceeding.
That is true. It doesn’t justify giving them something for free.
@Raoul: Thanks. The point remains that a Democrat will take Franken’s place. And will not have Franken’s baggage in the next election.
This is a political calculation for a political problem. That’s a description, not a condemnation. We have other battles to fight, like getting an incompetent President out of office, or at least defanged to the greatest extent we can. Keeping Franken in office will weaken our ability to do that for political reasons.
SatanicPanic
@Tony P.: Well sure, blame Democrats, they totally have the power to make Trump resign.
trollhattan
@TenguPhule:
One of them committed one or more felonies, for starters.
different-church-lady
@Cheryl Rofer:
In all of the examples I can think of, the seat always switches parties after the scandal.
TenguPhule
@gene108:
If Franken is forced to resign I guarantee you that the Democratic party will get none of the credit and all of the blame for having sex fiends hidden in their ranks.
Those who are turning on Franken now are the new Bernie-bros of 2017.
If they get the upper hand, 2018 is going to be a worse repeat of 2016.
Arky Vaughan
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
There’s no equivalence
TenguPhule
@jay:
But sufficient purity will make the Republicans see the error of their ways! //
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
I used to think a lot of Democrats didn’t know how to win, because they’d rather get a good sportsmanship award than win office.
I was wrong. Many Democrats don’t actually care if they win, as long as they get to feel purer in heart than the Republican who defeated them.
Enjoy feeling pure as every liberal accomplishment of the last century gets gutted by the party that cares if they win.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
GOP dictatorship here we come
trollhattan
@rikyrah:
If he goes then the stories blow up, is it all “oopsie, sorry no takebacks”? Or does the story just go away so there’s no chance of that?
Sab
@Betty Cracker: Tom Perez wants everyone to step down. You can’t run a political party without controversy, This is what politics is.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Surrender on Franken and we’re going to be right back in the same battle with another Democratic Senator.
Win or die.
BobbyK
Remember Acorn? Remember the Duke Lacrosse fiasco? Lives were ruined because of the Duke Lacrosse accusations. Accusations must be taken seriously but for christ sakes this “pre give up” bull shit has to stop.
Cheryl Rofer
Aren’t we using up time and energy on this, alienating people who should be our allies, when we should be beating on Republicans and the conference committee to kill the tax bill? Causing confusion there so they can’t agree? Bills have been defeated in conference committee before. It would be a great victory to defeat this abomination. But we have to focus to do that.
Perhaps the fight over Franken and division among Democrats is what Republicans want to see.
Betty Cracker
@John Carter: Someone in a previous comment deployed the word “hysterical” to describe the reaction to the accusations against Franken. But I think it fits this statement in your comment much more precisely:
Da fuq? ?
different-church-lady
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
I don’t “believe” any of them. My beliefs have literally no impact or influence on what is factual. My beliefs are moot.
If you want to ask me about my guesses as to the veracity of various accusations, I might be willing to share them.
Likewise on my views regarding the relative nature of the alleged crimes involved.
Betty Cracker
@Sab: Nonsense.
West of the Rockies (been a while)
I’m amazed so many people struggle with basic shit.
Humans are attracted to other humans. If as an adult the human you are drawn to is also an adult, it’s okay to let them know, to flirt a little. If your efforts are unwanted, BACK OFF and stop being creepy.
If you enter the workforce and weaponize your attractiveness and use sex to advance your career, you’re creepy, too.
Raoul
@MomSense:
Ryan is, of course, a complete piece of shit. If Franken does resign as now expected, a non-supine press would on a regular basis ask Ryan about Farenthold, and McConnell about Moore. As always, we need a press that gives a crap about the ethics of the GOP.
schrodingers_cat
@Cheryl Rofer: How is asking Franken to resign help your purported goal?
Nelle
@satbyThe man who assaulted me is in prison for life as a violent, sexual predator. I’m finding it rich that I’m being told that I don’t care about harassment and assault just because I think there should be an investigation rather than immediately shoving Franken out. I’ve been called to court three times and the last time, was cross-examined as if I was the liar. The man had the right to defend himself and I’m grateful that he was convicted and a 30 plus year reign of assault was ended. Why can no one talk about investigation and censure? Is there only one hammer?
different-church-lady
@Cheryl Rofer:
Well, we are Democrats after all…
Major Major Major Major
@Tony P.:
In a thread full of stupid this is the stupidest.
grubert
@VincentN:
Being taken seriously does not, should not, mean being completely believed by default.
Anita Hill’s charges were taken seriously, just not by Thomas’ friends. And then she was smeared by right wing liars and feckless Democrats threw her overboard, rather like what’s happening right now.
tychay
Please ban troll runner, he keeps working around the pie filter
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: You’re fucking stupid. This guy is done and none of the dumbass conspiracy theories that people are floating on this thread can change that. At best we can salvage our reputation as the party that believes women, and that might help maintain some of the enthusiasm that helped us win in VA in November. But morons like yourself want to sabotage even that.
WaterGirl
Trentrunner pied again, with his new name.
PJ
@Cheryl Rofer: I think we disagree on the political calculation. You believe that, regardless of the truth of allegations made against him or her, a Democrat should resign, before any investigation takes place, because the Republicans will make hay out of it, whereas, after the resignation, they will kindheartedly stop their attacks on Democrats. I believe that succumbing to unproven allegations will encourage Republicans to make even more attacks and find, or manufacture (paging James O’Keefe!), even more unsubstantiated allegations. I can’t see how keeping Franken in office in any way weakens the Democrats’ power now or in subsequent elections. Are voters suddenly going to turn to the GOP to protect women’s rights and dignity?
eemom
@satby:
It’s really kind of unspeakable how fucked up it is for ANY fucking Democrat, male or female, to waste a single brain cell on this bullshit on a day when the tax monstrosity plus a government shutdown are looming, Dump is about to unleash all hell in the ME, and the all out republican war on human decency and the planet continues to rage on multiple fronts.
Idiots. Idiots. Idiots.
Betty Cracker
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: My apologies to John Carter at #176. Your comment at #189 best embodies “hysterical.” So far.
grubert
@Major Major Major Major:
Not stupid. A completely understandable sentiment. Why fight for a party that won’t fight for itself?
Unfortunately, checking out will make matters worse.
WaterGirl
It’s making me feel sick to think that Al Franken will resign and others who are GUILTY GUILTY GUILTY if worse are actually in the white house and quite possibly about to be elected to the institution Al would resign from.
stupid, stupid,, stupid. why are so many people apparently able to see the big picture?
different-church-lady
@West of the Rockies (been a while): I think you’re neglecting to acknowledge that there can be a VAST difference in civilization from specimen to specimen. You’re describing the rules of advanced civilized society, not the rules of large mammals as a whole.
jay
They know how to active the left’s circular firing squad. Damn. Democrats are gonna get gutted leading up to 2018. Folks are not at all prepared for what is coming.
PJ
@Cheryl Rofer: You think? But no, people can’t let it rest and say, “let’s see what the Ethics Committee determines”. It has to be “off with his head!” right now.
grubert
@SatanicPanic:
Wow, you really are Satanic. It’s nice to see a right winger be honest about something.
Betty Cracker
@Major Major Major Major: Hard to see how that one is topped.
Major Major Major Major
@grubert:
See, it’s the last part that makes it stupid ?
Miss Bianca
@satby: You know, I am about ready to give up on the Democratic Party. I really am. And I say that not only as a registered Democrat, but a member of my local party’s central committee.
I have defended the Democrats against right-wingers who see us as tax’n’spend liebrul devils incarnate.
I have defended Democrats against left-wingers who see us as more of the same both-sides-do-it devils incarnate.
I have long argued that the Democratic Party is the ONLY bulwark against the malice and malfeasance of the authoritarian wingnuts who want to bring this country down to 3rd-world status – a banana republic with crappier weather.
But this shit? – where virtue-signalling becomes more important, literally more important, than keeping an eye on the prize – holding the administration’s feet to the fire, and rallying every goddamn vote, every goddamn voice we’ve got to do? To say nothing of standing up for due process and equal treatment for all? – then I’ve had it.
I”d say “fuck ’em”, but it’s us we’re talking about. Fuck us.
schrodingers_cat
Thomas, Trump, Farenthold still in office but let’s decapitate our own, and then you fucking wonder why won’t people vote D? You don’t stand up for your own throw them under the bus to appease the media and Rs, for what exactly.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Betty Cracker:
Excuse me for expecting total scumbags to take advantage of this and weaponize accusations. Excuse me for expecting due process investigations. Excuse me for expecting my leaders to have spines.
TenguPhule
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: Civil Breakdown, here we come. (Because Democrats can’t be counted on to organize a proper Civil War, we’re too damn busy kneecapping ourselves)
Cheryl Rofer
@PJ: We are weakening our power with this argument, which would continue as long as Franken is in office.
My argument has nothing to do with whatever the Republicans may say or their (lack of) good will. It has only to do with the effectiveness of Democrats in reaching our goals.
Insofar as I’m trying to adjudicate claims, the fact that so many woman senators are calling for Franken to step down suggests to me that there’s more to this than we know.
Major Major Major Major
@Betty Cracker: Trentrunner being on at least his third(!) nym to skirt the pie filter is pretty stupid too.
trollhattan
@WaterGirl: Speaking of delicious pie, I finally deployed it and to my chagrin, it seems to reset itself and I’m back to reading the pie-ee the next day. is it relying on cookies or something between browsing sessions?
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Yes, surrender preemptively, then throw ourselves on the mercy of the GOP and the media. Bold.
The reason Democrats like you consistently lose to Republicans is because you’re weak, they know it, and they can always count on your kind of Dem to back down from a fight.
Mnemosyne
@Fair Economist:
Yup. Funny, that.
And when is Blake Farenthold going to tender his resignation for much worse behavior that had to be fixed with a settlement? Oh, he isn’t going to resign? There’s a shocker.
You all got played, and you’re so bathed in self-righteousness that you don’t care. Moore will get elected, Farenthold will keep his office, but you got your liberal scalp. Whoo.
grubert
@PJ:
Exactly true.
The Moar You Know
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: It’s only karma if he’s inside, calling for government services to save his fat ass.
different-church-lady
Here, let’s clear a couple of things up:
a) In a sane world it would be easy to agree that pushing Franken out is the right thing to do
b) WE DON’T FUCKIN’ LIVE IN A SANE WORLD ANYMORE.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
They turned on one of their own based on bullshit.
They’ll find the next one easier. And thanks to those 6 MORONS we’re going to see a lot more next times.
Cacti
“Sentence first, verdict afterwards.”
-Queen of Hearts (D-Wonderland)
Betty Cracker
@Major Major Major Major: Already addressed.
VincentN
Whatever Franken decides to do he should do it for himself. Don’t be forced into stepping aside for the “good for of the party.” Because the party is screwed either way. If he’s innocent then he should stay and insist on the investigation running its course. If he’s guilty then say so and resign or state he won’t be running again after his term is up. Let’s have the truth one way or another or this controversy will never die.
John Carter
I think if we, the United States of America, just develop a weapon of mass destruction, the rest of the world will cease any kind of violence and never try to make one of their own! Peace will break out everywhere.
How’d that work out?
Kay
@Betty Cracker:
I love “Female Senators” though :)
Maybe they all want to get rid of Franken because he’s a political liability and they had the women take the lead because it looks good. I would be shocked if they were that organized and cohesive, but it’s possible.
He is in some measure a political liability. That’s true. The only question is how much of one and what to do about it.
different-church-lady
@different-church-lady: C) Anyone who thinks future Democratic candidates will be rewarded for this at the ballot box is a damned fool.
TenguPhule
@different-church-lady:
FTFY.
None of the accusers are credible. No third party support. No evidence that supports their stories.
But somehow Franken must go, because “believe the women!”
Fuck no, I don’t believe these particular women.
Davebo
@Tony P.: That’s some world class silly right there.
schrodingers_cat
When is he going to make a statement about Kashmir? Because that’s one fire he hasn’t added fuel to, yet.
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan: It uses localstorage, which (by default) should persist within the browser for quite some time.
different-church-lady
@VincentN: This makes sense until you consider that he might be innocent in his own mind and guilty in reality.
Cogitari Safari
Might be a good idea to listen to your constituents, Senator Franken. They are the ultimate arbiters.
That’s how this is supposed to work in a democratic republic. Right?
If you don’t know how to use a torch or a pitchfork, don’t pick one up.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: I’m not backing down from a fight to defend a groper because I wouldn’t defend a groper. The party has tried defending these people in the past and it always backfires, because Democratic voters tend to care about this stuff and the truth always comes out. Whine all you want about how it’s not fair, because Republicans get away with it, etc. The rest of us are going to move on.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: Here’s a possibility: rational people might disagree with you on the facts. But in any case, those six “FEMALES” are worse than Russia, voter suppression, the GOP, etc.? Utter nonsense.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
Perhaps you and the others rushing to kick Franken out could stop doing what the Republicans want.
A Ghost To Most
Democrats are so busy infighting that the real enemy is able to do what they want. We need to focus on them, especially since I would bet good money this is Ruspublican ratfuckery.
Amir Khalid
Forcing Franken’s resignation before Ethics Committee has determined he did anything wrong is unjust. Insisting he go because of the “optics” is self-defeating for his party: it will have removed one of its better legislators, without getting in return even the slightest bit less hatred from the Republican party or voter base or the right-leaning mainstream media or for that matter the Wilmerist tendency. As a foreign Democratic sympathiser, I oppose unilateral surrender.
cintibud
I want Franken to remain so we can have the ethics hearing he called for. I can’t believe the GOP will allow those hearing if he is gone. Let’s get ALL the rot out, not just the Democratic rot
A Ghost To Most
@Amir Khalid: This.
Raoul
@MattF: As a Minnesotan, I will say that Franken is far more than competent. He kept his head down and worked during his (delayed start) first term. He followed Senta decorum.
And he has championed things like Net Neutrality, which as we know is probably on the chopping block.
I will be very sad to see him go based on his record, the decency I’ve always seen him offer as an elected, and because we shouldn’t have a f-king Senate made up only of cutthroat lawyers.
But her emails!!!
If he resigns, that’s it. As far as the press and populace are concerned, it would be an admission of guilt to all accusations. There would be no ethics investigation. As a result, we would never hear testimony from the photographer who snapped the original picture or the identities of Franken’s accusers.
In case anyone is curious, this is why he can’t resign. Due process has to happen or we’re opening ourselves up to a whirlwind of anonymous accusations.
TenguPhule
@ruemara:
You seem to be under the mistaken belief that forcing Franken to resign would change this somehow.
We will get all of the blame and none of the credit. That’s how our media works.
The Moar You Know
@Uncle Ebeneezer: You’ve been here a while so you get the courtesy of a reply, not being tossed into the pie filter.
As a Democrat, what you are showing me as a Democratic voter is not that we are better than Republicans, but that we are weaklings who will roll over for a story that is sourced less well than any random high school rumor. And that is making it FUCKING DIFFICULT to see the value in being a Dem voter. Period. Why give money and time when it all gets thrown on a bonfire designed to be the world’s biggest virtue signal? I’m not here to show people I’m better than them; I’m not. I’m not here to show people that the Democratic party is better than the Republican party, because it isn’t. They just have different interests. I’m here to win elections and get the legislation I want passed. Period. If the Democratic party cannot do that I will find someone else who can.
PJ
@Cheryl Rofer: How are we weakening our power? How does Franken staying in office blunt Democratic effectiveness? You haven’t elaborated on that at all, just that the “bloodletting” looks bad. Did Bill Clinton staying in office weaken the Democrats? If he had resigned when the Whitewater investigation started, or when all the allegations about women were brought against him, would more people have decided that they were going to vote Democratic?
I know what looks weak to me — when a Democrat gives up in the face of unsubstantiated allegations.
If there’s more to this than we know, but someone else does know, then let them come out with it. Hell, maybe they could even present it to the Ethics Committee! As someone pointed out above, Gillibrand has her own agenda (as does likely Harris), and eliminating a potential rival for 2020 would be a good thing for both of them.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
Mnem would you think Franken should resign if there were no GOP harassers still serving? Is it context? It’s fine if it is – I see how it’s a double standard and unfair but do you think the (alleged) behavior should mean resignation apart from what Republicans do?
TenguPhule
@But her emails!!!:
You’re not supposed to bring logic into this lynch mob. What will the neighbors think?
//
Mnemosyne
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
Sorry, the guy who excused Sam Seder’s rape joke is lecturing us about promoting rape culture?
Nice try, asswipe. You’ve already demonstrated for all of us that this is based in your personal animosity against Franken, not any kind of “principle.”
Ohio Mom
@different-church-lady: I think I said this before: I knew someone who was caught up in a small, local version of the day care witch hunts back in the early 1980s. It was totally baseless and very traumatic.
I say let there be an investigation. This isn’t like that Republican who just got caught in a motel room with an underage boy — we really don’t know what Franken did or didn’t do.
Let’s slow down. Everything — tax reform, responses to sexual abuse accusations — doesn’t have to be done at breakneck speed.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
The accusations should be investigated in good faith by the Ethics Committee.
At that point, any anonymous accusers can step out of the shadows, put themselves under penalty of perjury, and speak their piece.
different-church-lady
Having moral standards is not a bad thing.
Ignoring the complications of those standards when they interface with an amoral world is not a good thing.
schrodingers_cat
@schrodingers_cat: Oops sorry, wrong thread.
SatanicPanic
@The Moar You Know: What did the party get out of protecting Bob Filner?
Mayor Kevin Faulconer (R) and a deadly hepatitis outbreak.
Sab
@Trentrunner Reckoning: NARAL liked Joe Lieberman even though he voted Alito out of the judiciary committee. NARAL just wants to go on as a political entity. They aren’t actually on our side. I used to defend them against my prolife Catholic husband until the Lieberman thing. Now I don’t. The right is right on one thing, every vote matters, even on procedural issues.
The Moar You Know
@jay: I agree. Every word.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker:
We can fight the others. But having to fight those six within our own party brings us no benefits.
In this time and place, yes they did worse. We are fighting for our lives here and those six just slammed a rock on our trusted left hand. We do not have the luxury of self-mutilating ourselves in the traditional Democratic fashion.
Amir Khalid
@schrodingers_cat:
Trump will never make a statement about Kashmir. He has never heard of Led Zeppelin. Also too, he’s not trying to build a golf resort there.
Raven Onthill
(Edited from my remarks at Talking Points Memo)
Franken, who has admitted fault and is willing to be investigated, will likely be made to resign, while Moore, with far more evidence of far worse conduct, has not admitted fault and will likely be seated. The lesson, to any harasser or rapist, is obvious.
“I expect more allegations of misconduct on the left to pop up. Not because there are numerically more, but because the right will actively seek out cases on the left to balance the elephant grabbing the women in the room.” – “Spocko,” How the Right Weaponizes Accusations to Destroy People and Institutions
He is writing about the plainly false attack on Sam Seder, but I think it applies in this case, too. I think it is important that we put procedures in place to judge these accusations fairly, otherwise we will end up returning to Victorian prudery and hypocrisy.
tobie
@Cheryl Rofer:
Exactly. Which is why it’s so important to call a hit job what it is. This is a hit job. Franken is being framed. Calling for him to resign based on sketchy and dubious allegations is doing the Republican’s work for them.
Cheryl Rofer
@PJ: We are wasting our time in this thread. This is a political calculation, not a moral one. (And I’m gonna leave after this comment because I have other stuff to do).
Because he is an easy target for Republicans now. Bill Clinton was President, which is different from a Senator. Presidents aren’t replaced as easily.
You are saying that the bloodletting should continue. I say, just no.
Jack the Second
So here’s my fucking question.
How many times does the Democratic Party need to prove itself by kicking its garbage to the curb while the Republicans stand firm behind their rapists, their pedophiles, their abusers, their odiously corrupt and morally bankrupt politicians, before the mainstream media admits that one party – the Democratic Party – has a moral backbone and the other is utterly immoral?
That’s all I want to fucking know.
Cacti
I wonder what the level of correlation is between those BJ commenters/front pagers who think Franken should be run out of town on a rail, and those who previously believed Edward Snowden to be a truth telling, whistle blowing patriot?
My unscientific guess would be: pretty fucking high.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Agreed and counter signed.
germy
John Carter
Betty,
I didn’t say worse. I said they caused more damage. Look at the upset all over the blogosphere right now. These people are upset that someone is being thrown under the bus without known evidence or identifiable accusers while Republican accusers have identified themselves.
And in my opinion, will be a psychological factor in some male’s ability to see women in what should be the new 21st century light.
Regardless of anyone’s opinion or utter nonsense, it’s become a very divisive issue that should have been thought out before beiing called out. Seems no one thought about the consequences of their comments.
Kay
Just thought I’d sprinkle some gasoline around
schrodingers_cat
@Amir Khalid: Kashmir valley is a paradise, that’s what Shah Jahan said (the builder of the Taj and the Jama Masjid in Delhi)
Major Major Major Major
@Raven Onthill: The Seder thing is so fucking stupid.
TenguPhule
@Jack the Second: Forever, Katie.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: There you go again. Fuck you. I never had anything good to say about Snowden.
ETA- while I’m at it- I never voted for Stein, I don’t like Bernie Sanders and Glenn Greenwald is an ass.
Sab
@Kay: I put my lawn mower in storage for the winter.
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
From what I’ve seen so far, the alleged behavior doesn’t seem bad enough to require immediate resignation. Official censure and maybe a fine if the allegations are found to have substance. But it seems like we are demanding the death penalty for minor allegations here.
TenguPhule
@Cacti: Interesting, I thought Snowden was a shithole from the start.
Citizen Alan
@TenguPhule:
He’s happy about it. There’s no question in my mind that he’s on the side of the Republicans, if not Vladimir Putin. And probably also a rapist.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Your favorite song is “Surrender”, isn’t it?
Miss Bianca
@Kay: I think Doug Jones should shut the fuck up and focus on trying to beat Roy Moore. Oh, wait – I guess he’s made the political calculation that fuckin’ ALABAMA is going to stand up and cheer him for his virtue. And vote for him because of it!
I wasn’t sure he was going to lose before, but I am now.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Seems?
They’re demanding a human sacrifice complete with heart removal.
trollhattan
@Major Major Major Major:
Thanks for ‘splainin’. Will have to figure out what weird setting I have precluding this (although with auto-population of my nym and email one would think they’d be next to that delicious pie).
But her emails!!!
@Cheryl Rofer:
So basically, the Democrats should execute our own the moment they get a target painted on them by Republicans, because Republicans would never repeatedly bomb a corpse or find another target to paint.
TenguPhule
@Cheryl Rofer:
So what? All of them are. It’s not like Republicans need a real reason to tar Democrats as weak and corrupt.
JaneSays
@TenguPhule: Do we really want IOKIYAD to be our new standard? Because you know if the exact same accusations were being levied against Ben Sasse or John Thune or some other GOP senator, you would absolutely be calling for their resignation. As you should.
We lose all moral high ground as soon as we start letting the same shit fly on our side that we blast when we see it happening on the other side.
This is too many accusations to not being taken seriously at this point. I get the hesitation some had early on about calls for Franken’s resignation, but most offered the caveat, “as long as there aren’t a whole lot of other allegations”. Well, that ship has sailed. Sooner or later, enough needs to be enough.
He’s gotta go. It’s time. We’re keeping the seat anyway.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
if the blogosphere were representative of the country, we’d have 85 seats in the Senate and trump would’ve been laughed out of the Republican primary. If the blogosphere were representative of the Democratic party, Jill Stein voters wouldn’t have handed trump WI, MI and PA
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
Same here. Sometimes it’s lonely being right while the rest of the tribe is huffing the wacky tobacky.
TenguPhule
When the Civil War Comes, Republicans will simply accuse half of the Democrats of being sexual harassers and the other half will cheerfully shoot them in the back.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: I get it now — I’m not part of your “we.” And I’m okay with that! :)
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: You know I already responded to that accusation, dumbass, so you can shove it.
Major Major Major Major
@trollhattan:
That’s usually stored differently, across sessions and even devices (depending on your setup). localstorage is …very local.
rikyrah
@Cheryl Rofer:
You HONESTLY think they’re going to stop at Franken and Conyers?
Really? Seriously?
Got rid of two WITHOUT HAVING TO PUT ANYONE UNDER OATH.
Are you all that phucking dense that you can’t see a GOP ratphuck for the trees?
Mnemosyne
@JaneSays:
Do we really want Democratic Senators forced out of office based on anonymous accusations while Republicans like Farenthold continue to squat in office despite named accusers?
Villago Delenda Est
@Amir Khalid: “Optics” is a meme of the vermin of the Village. This has that vile harridan Cokie Robert’s fingerprints all over it.
Fuck this shit. Let due process play out.
Redshift
Attention, mods! Can we have a policy that creating a new nym to evade the pie filter gets you banned, please? Especially now that the pie filter is built in, and doesn’t require hacking.
bemused
@The Moar You Know:
Better fighters is what we really need.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
I think we see it differently, politically. You seem to see it as defensive. I really don’t. I see it as they made a decision to get rid of him for what they perceive as political benefit. Not defensive. Not reactive. Extreme, but a decision THEY made, not KellyAnne Conway.
Because I agree that Democrats do too much defense and too much reacting. This feels calculated to me. Maybe the wrong calculation but not emotional or panicked. I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on the politics.
TenguPhule
@JaneSays:
None of the accusations against Franken have been substantiated.
The ONLY thing against him is that one photo, which he apologized for.
All the rest of it is smoke being blown by Republicans with an obvious agenda.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
If we just give the Republicans Franken’s scalp, the public will surely reward us and the GOP will leave us alone.
If we just give the Nazis the Sudetenland, etc.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
Sadly, yes.
SATSQ.
JaneSays
I think it’s all a moot point anyway. He’s going to resign in the next 48 hours. Then I guess we can all scream at each other some more, because that’s super productive.
Kay
@Mnemosyne:
It’s so “collegial” and clubby, too the Senate. They’re not free lancers. Christ they probably planned it and warned Franken.
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
We agree on that. I just think that they’re wrong and they’re only going to make things worse for Democrats going forward by lowering the bar to say that Democratic politicians can be forced to resign over anonymous accusations.
They basically just disarmed our ability to fight back against the next set of accusations. It was a very, very bad calculation IMO. We are now screwed in the midterms.
Mnemosyne
@JaneSays:
We are now going to lose the midterms, because the Republicans are going to gin up anonymous accusations against every Democratic candidate in sight.
But, hey, we drove Franken out of office based on anonymous accusarions. Yay us! That moral victory will sure help when our health insurance system collapses.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Cacti:
I see what you’re saying, but bad historical example. Britain really didn’t have a choice at the Munich Conference. They weren’t ready for war and they couldn’t know for certain if Hitler would back down when confronted.
TenguPhule
@JaneSays:
No I wouldn’t. Not with this level of proof. I’d rightly suspect a Republican ratfuck trying to draw us into a false position in order to discredit the whole “believe the women” movement.
Moore’s accusers got traction because Wapo went the extra mile to make sure their story got it right.
They have evidence in the face of Moore’s denials.
Look at the accusations against Franken without giving his accusers the benefit of the doubt. Does any of it not seem odd or suspicious? What evidence supports their claims?
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Ding ding ding ding ding!
Why did Lincoln favor Grant over his predecessors, and always stood by him in the face of criticism? Because “he fights!”. And that was what was needed to win the civil war.
The Dems are a party full of McClellans. We need more Grants.
Kay
Republicans in Ohio are running a Trump campaign against Cordray. They’re calling him “crooked Cordray” and saying he “rigged” the primary. It’s not the same at all because there’s no Lefty in the race- the other candidates are as center Right as Cordray or further Right so they won’t be able to peel off liberals.
Just no imagination. None. We’re going to win :)
Miss Bianca
@JaneSays: Yeah, just about as productive as calling resistance to pre-emptive surrender “IOKIYAD”. Personally, I’m hoping Al Franken tells us all to go to hell and he’ll see us at the ethics committee investigation.
bemused
@Kay:
Al and his wife have probably been packing for a week.
The Moar You Know
@JaneSays: Yes, I do. It would be a step, a start, towards leveling the playing field.
That is one thing I want very much. There are others.
different-church-lady
@Mnemosyne: Purity is not pretty.
balconesfault
I’m ready for a hearing, and for people under oath.
And for a standard established by an ethics committee as to what’s grounds for removal from the Senate, and what’s not.
If an unwanted kiss to another adult is grounds for someone being unfit to serve in the Senate – I don’t want that to be a matter of Franken resigning.
I want to see a bunch of those f***ers voting for that standard … and then being held to it themselves.
WaterGirl
@MazeDancer: I a hoping the announcement is that he plans to serve until the end of his term but that he will not be running again.
Mnemosyne
@Kay:
The next step is anonymous accusations of sexual misconduct against Cordray. You may think it sounds crazy because Cordray is such a straight arrow, but that won’t matter. The Republicans and their propagandists have figured out a winning strategy, and they will deploy it at every opportunity until the midterms.
bupalos
If resignation was going to put an R in his place, then it would be an argument. As it is, I really have no idea what the DEMOCRATS IS SPINELESS LOOZERS UNLESS WE IMMOLATE OVER FRANKEN crowd is doing. To me this one is a bit of a litmus on who wants to fight just for fighting sake, even if it’s for nothing and self-sabotaging. I’d RATHER have someone other than Franken in there, he’s perfect on policy but now a huge liability going forward in a state we should hold. He’s a risk that’s absolutely not worth it.
Cacti
@ Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) :
I see w
Perfectly apt historical example. Britain lost its nerve. France sat behind its “impenetrable” Maginot line.
If we’re not at the zero hour for America’s fascist moment, we’re at the edge of it. But we’re hoping handing the fascists a scalp will improve our political fortunes.
Is there a single, real world example of that ever happening?
PJ
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?: The British failed to conceive that the Germans also weren’t ready for war, and would be far more ready for war in 1939 once they eliminated, without a shot being fired, 35 divisions mobilized on their eastern flank, obtained hundreds of thousands of forced laborers, and scooped up all of the Czechoslovak planes and tanks (which they would ride into France less than 2 years later) and, most importantly, munitions factories. All of that was foreseeable in 1938.
WaterGirl
@Sab: The first one is the hardest. Then you think “Why did I wait so long, i should have done this long ago.”
TenguPhule
@Miss Bianca:
If he does, he’ll win his next election in a landslide.
Voters reward winners with balls.
Tony P.
@Major Major Major Major:
If the Democratic Party is too pure to contain Al Franken and too powerless to impeach He, Trump, there’s plenty of stupid to go around. I’d kill myself before supporting any Republican, but if the Democrats can’t stand up to the ratfuckers once in a while what’s the point of supporting them as a party? Show me an Anti-RatFucking Democrat who’s strong on civil rights, SS & Medicare, science, etc and she or he gets my vote. But A.R.F. comes first.
different-church-lady
@balconesfault:
…retroactively. Because that’s what we’re talking about.
WaterGirl
@satby:
Well put.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Mnemosyne: his first accuser has a picture to back up her story and is not anonymous, the second accuser is not anonymous and has IIRC a contemporary Facebook post about Franken grabbing her ass. You can argue that those accusations aren’t serious enough to warrant resignation, but it simply isn’t true that all the accusations are anonymous. And I think this latest one sounds made up out of whole cloth.
I’m ambivalent about Franken, and given all the venom and histrionics in this thread, I apparently do have say it’s absurd that President Grabber is in the White House and a child molester is likely to be elected to the Senate. But those things would be true if Franken had kept his hands to himself kindergarten. In a rational world, the sensible thing to do would be to let the ethics procedure play out. That said, it’s not at all clear to me how “fighting” for Franken, in this atmosphere and with the electorate(s) we have, is a victory for Dems
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: As you probably know, the accusations against Franken aren’t all anonymous, and there’s a decent chance the Democratic consultant whose identity Politico withheld is known by the senators now calling for Franken’s resignation. Also, the original accusation came with a photograph that looked pretty fucking bad.
I think reasonable folks can disagree on whether or not Franken should step down before an inquiry runs its course. I don’t think it’s reasonable to conclude “we’re doooooooomed” on the basis of one case that has some pretty unique factors attached to it, including the photo.
Mike in DC
How many women would have to come forward against Trump to force his resignation?
My top two guesses are “100+” and “trick question–the GOP and the media would never force him to resign”.
Dman
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
You say anything regarding farenthold yet?
Funny how no-one is demanding resignations from the “other side” of the aisle.
Miss Bianca
@TenguPhule:
Well, in that case, the Democrats are so, SO fucked.
Major Major Major Major
@Tony P.: You type, but all I read is ‘stupid, stupid, stupid’
TenguPhule
@bupalos:
Wrong.
He is worth it. Otherwise no Democrat in office is.
The Moar You Know
@Jack the Second: Important question and reply so I go all caps:
THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN.
Revise all planning accordingly. The media does not care about anything save for what is on the scoreboard, nor should they. Our purity and nobility will never get us anything, so stop acting as though it will and figure out a plan B.
JaneSays
@The Moar You Know: Cool.
But if we get that, you know we can never credibly complain about their hypocrisy again, right?
Your rationale sounds an awful lot like, “if you can’t beat ’em, join ’em”. At least in terms of how we expect politicians on our side to conduct themselves.
'Niques
@campionrules: You may not be a troll, but you sure sound like one. Let the Ethics Investigation decide.
different-church-lady
@Mike in DC:
Infinity is a number, yes?
Mnemosyne
@bupalos:
We’re pointing out that we have now set a precedent that Democratic politicians can be forced to resign over anonymous accusations with no further investigation. Do you really not see how that is going to backfire on us in a horrible way?
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl: Read a little further down. Mistaken identity.
TenguPhule
@JaneSays:
This has not once stopped the Republicans from doing so.
Cacti
@bupalos:
I agree that you have no idea.
“Let’s do what Republicans want then beg them not to hurt us” is loser strategy.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Some of the public will be happy that we’re not harboring gropers. Some will not care. We need to cater to the former, because “hey come volunteer at this office… where you might get groped, and if you do, we’ll expect you to shut up for the good of the party” is a tough pitch. But you go on believing that caring about stuff like being a party of non-gropers is capitulation.
But her emails!!!
We as Democrats need to create a protocol on how we handle these accusations and then apply it consistently in all such cases. The reason we’re getting hurt on this is that wer’re basically adlibbing and have no standard SOP we can point at when this happens which leave Democrats as a whole wide open to criticism. Democrats should draft this protocol in consultation with victims rights organizations and announce it. Maybe the DNC could spearhead the effort, because if it doesn’t seem to have anything else productive to keep it occupied.
1. It should be announced broadly on media and necessary through adds
2. It should include some sort of due process independent of the party
3. It should be consistently applied in all cases
4. It should be made clear that commentary and updates in these cases will be handled centrally. Not every Democrat tweets their own take on it.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady:
It is many numbers!
TenguPhule
@JMG:
If the Democratic party can’t stand by one of their own in the face of bullshit accusations, it doesn’t deserve to survive.
Bring on the Civil Breakdown.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
We can make a bet on it, if you like. But we are definitely fucked now that we’ve set a precedent that a Democratic politician can be forced to resign on the word of a Hannity commentator and a group of anonymous accusers.
There is a double standard, and that double standard has now been weaponized solely against Democrats. We’re fucked in 2018. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but we are.
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: Don’t you mean its every number?
Citizen Alan
Prediction. Al Franken will resign, and the rapist Putin-lover Trentrunner will disappear and never post under that name again unless more vague accusations against Democrats pop up, because in the end he’s just a GOP Putin-loving rat fucker.
WaterGirl
@Nelle:
Absolutely true. All of it.
different-church-lady
@Major Major Major Major: All of them, in fact.
RJM
Maybe Franken should just switch parties… Democratic party ideals are intact, and the Republicans don’t seem to care. He can still stand for the ethics investigation, THEN there will be a precedent. Of course he’d lose his committee appointments, but that seems likely anyway and there would be one centrist in the Republican party.
This is mostly a tounge in cheek response to the weaponization threat.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker: When you’re wrong Betty, you are really fucking out of the ballpark wrong.
I don’t look forward to your apologies in 2018. We’re going to have bigger problems by then.
SatanicPanic
@Betty Cracker: If there’s anything I’ve learned about this crowd it’s that they’ll always return to “We’re doomed”
debit
@Trentrunner Reckoning:
Oh fuck you, you smug little piece of shit. Go ahead and be satisfied as we have lost one of our best fighters. When we find out that we’ve been played like with Shirley Sherrod, maybe you’ll pause to reflect and feel shame. But most likely you’ll just change your name again like a fucking coward. But don’t worry, whichever it is, I’ll pie it. Now fuck off and die.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
Being labeled gropers and executed on the basis of unfounded allegations is not going to end well for us.
Just saying.
Cacti
I’m beginning to understand why so many of you “have no idea” what fighting anonymous charges against Franken will accomplish politically.
It’s because fighting is an alien concept to you.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Actually, what will happen is that the Republicans will broadcast far and wide, See? The Democrats talk about equality, but they don’t really mean it, and they let Blacks and Jews grope your women. Vote for us, because we’re not hypocrites!
And people will vote for them, because that was the entire point of this propaganda operation from day one. This ENTIRE THING was designed to make Republicans feel okay about voting for pedophile Roy Moore, because that Jew Franken was doing the same thing, and at least Moore will vote to end abortion.
So, yay us! We got rid of a powerful Democrat to clear the way for Republicans to elect a pedophile! We’re so awesome!
Stan
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
If only they’d taken up the USSR on its repeated proposals to create a UK-France-Soviet anti-Nazi alliance….but they didn’t, and the USSR won the war for them anyway as it turns out.
Major Major Major Major
@different-church-lady: @TenguPhule: Absolutely not.
Jager
I don’t know Al Franken well, however I’ve had a private breakfast with him and had dinner with him. I was the GM of an Air America affiliate (please don’t get me started on how fucked up that organization was) We brought Al in to do his show live a couple of times, both times his driver was one of our staffers. She was extremely attractive, warm and yes, a little flirty. I called her yesterday and asked her if Al ever made a move on her, Her answer, “Nope!” Al was alone with her at his hotel, in the car, in the green room, nothing. Al had his picture taken with a lot of listeners and fans, yeah he put his arm around them, he mugged and he flirted with the ladies, young and old. Nothing. Know what Al and I talked about at breakfast? The fact we both had daughters who were school teachers. From my experience with my fellow Democrats, we are way too eager to line up in a circular firing squad.
WaterGirl
@trollhattan: I just did a quick test. The pie list is browser specific, and also device specific. If you use Safari and Chrome, you have to pie the person in both places. I also have to pie the person again on my phone and on my iPad, even though I use Safari on all 3.
The only time the pied people become un-pied is when they change their nym slightly. Then you have to pie them again with the new nym.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
So when Roy Moore gets elected because Democrats are just as bad as Republicans when it comes to this stuff, will you admit this was all a psy-ops slam against Democrats, or cling to your belief that this was a real thing?
Raoul
@different-church-lady:
This is a real risk.
Not to be pollyanna but a very well thought out selection by Gov Dayton – and by that I mean it has to be a woman, and one with very good MN credentials, name recognition and hopefully some existing ground game – could buck that trend.
We should also have a Trump tailwind in 2018. Not that we can count on that or relax. Oh hell no. But if we can get a replacement in fast, and the complete-the-full-term vote can be structured to be on the ballot with Amy K and the rest of the slate next November (not a special elex), we can retain this seat, I think.
justawriter
And anyone who thinks the ratf*ckers aren’t lining up accusers for female democratic senators in preparation for 2020 will be in for a big surprise.
Major Major Major Major
@WaterGirl: This is what it means that “the filter uses localstorage” :)
CindyH
@rikyrah: AMEN AMEN AMEN rikyrah – I can’t for the life of me see how you go after Franken when no one is going after repugs over trump and roy moore – disgusting
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne:
As opposed to what they’re doing right now?
NO, YOU DON’T SAY!
Thanks Captain Obvious. Do you have any other brilliant insights to share?
Leto
@Mnemosyne: Exactly this.
balconesfault
@Mnemosyne: If Franken resigns, we need to see that as a basis of standard for Democrats.
Don’t be stupid enough to think it will be a basis of standard affecting how Alabamans vote.
WaterGirl
@Amir Khalid:
Me, too.
Mnemosyne
@justawriter:
Yup. This.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: It’s all a conspiracy!
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Do you even have to ask?
VincentN
Let’s take a deep breath here. Literally nothing we say here will make a difference to what happens tomorrow so there’s no point in making personal attacks or name calling.
The Democratic Party is filled with people with different points of view. That has always been true. So don’t be acting surprised when people disagree with you about such a divisive subject.
I do have to wonder though if the commenters on conservative blogs are divided at all about Roy Moore. Not in terms of whether he should keep running but whether they think what he did is wrong at all.
Because I don’t think anyone here is disagreeing that what is alleged against Franken is wrong, if true. We’re just arguing over what level of proof is required to show that or if other political considerations for or against resignation are more important.
But there are actual conservatives saying what Moore is accused of doing is fine according to the Bible or biology or whatever. Nobody here is saying the equivalent that unwanted groping or kissing is A-Okay.
So we still got that going for us I guess.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Right. Because the public really read Trump the riot act for admitting on an audio recording that he likes to sexually assault women.
Hold your white flag high and wave it proudly. Moron.
MomSense
This is a Republican/Fox ratfucking operation. Let the process run its course. Let the ethics investigation proceed and the accusers make their case.
For those of you calling for Franken to resign, are you bothered that one accuser played a part in the wrongful firing of Shirley Sherrod? Are you a bit suspicious when everyone at Fox and Roger Stone knew before the accusations went public? Are you curious about Hannity’s role in this?
I don’t want Franken to resign, certainly not before an ethics committee investigation. If we cave on this, the Republicans will weaponize accusations against Democrats. This will destroy us in the midterms and it will do significant harm to the movement against sexual harassment and assault.
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: What was I wrong about in my comment to Mnem?
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic: For a guy with your handle, you’re pretty much living the life on this thread.
different-church-lady
@Cacti:
Well, unless, of course, it’s fighting each other on-line.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
You’re the one saying that we should panic-rush Democrats into resigning over anonymous accusations, not me. I’m the one who thinks there should be an actual investigation.
@balconesfault:
If our new standard is “forced resignations based on anonymous accusations,” then we are fucked for both 2018 and 2020.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Are you confused about the meaning of the word “some”?
You mean the most unpopular president in history? I wonder how he got that way. Maybe is because SOME of the public doesn’t like that. DUHHHHHHHH
But her emails!!!
@balconesfault:
What exactly is that basis? We haven’t gotten all the facts surrounding the various accusations. Many of the accusers are anonymous. Would 7 anonymous accusations of butt grabbing be sufficient to force the resignation of a sitting US Senator?
The Moar You Know
@JaneSays: Why would I give a shit about their hypocrisy? Christ, I am not in this to prove my moral superiority. Last on my list of things I like doing is complaining. I AM HERE TO WIN. Period. There are some things I think America needs and the Dem party has been supportive of those, which is why I vote for them. But if they can’t or won’t deliver (and it’s starting to look an awful lot like “won’t”) I have no reason to do that. Do you understand? Stop giving a fuck about people view us and just win something, anything, so we can get out of the 19th century and stay there. Because, as the GOP has been relentlessly showing us since Reagan, winners in American politics get what they want and losers don’t get anything, not even a consolation prize. So yeah, if we are winning I do not give a fuck about how my politicians are conducting themselves, and if we are losing, I care even less.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: Why don’t you just pie me already? You’re responses are either strawmen or non sequitors.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Thank you for confirming your belief that it’s preferable to be a beloved loser than an unpopular winner.
But her emails!!!
@SatanicPanic:
I believe Trump’s more popular nationally than Franken currently is in Minnesota.
Major Major Major Major
@VincentN:
According to polls only like 13% of Alabama Republicans believe the allegations.
SatanicPanic
@Villago Delenda Est: Seven accusations. I’m not willing to believe they’re all lying.
glory b
@campionrules: “5.) We can’t afford to lose a Democrat the Republicans are trying to murder us all in our beds.”
For people of color, this is kinda true. Or, if not in our beds, on the street.
Cacti
@different-church-lady:
Or fighting the Democratic candidate, because “Goldman-Sachs speeches, man.”
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: You and Mnem should get a room. Neither of you idiots can respond to anything I say without building a strawman to light on fire.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Yes, I can’t imagine why I think the woman who called for Shirley Sherrod to be fired and lied about what Sherrod said might be part of a ratfucking operation. I’m sure she’s a fine, upstanding person who only lies about Democrats when it’s politically expedient.
SatanicPanic
@But her emails!!!: Well yeah, Republicans are a greater percentage of the population nationally then they are in MN. Obviously SOME part of the public doesn’t like this stuff, and that SOME happens to be more numerous on our side.
TenguPhule
@Betty Cracker: You think this is a unique case that’s not going to repeat itself.
And you are wrong. Republicans will do this again and again and again until nobody believes the women anymore.
Two birds, one stone.
Stepping down is literally the worst possible option here. For Franken and the party.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Hey, you’re the one who thinks that the woman who demanded that Shirley Sherrod be fired was completely pure in her motives when she accused Franken, not me. If you dislike hearing the truth and want to stay in your righteous bubble, then pie me.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
Three Republicans. Four anon.
Does something about this not strike you as at all odd?
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: I believe no such thing and have said so numerous times. You and your buddy Tweedledee keep ignoring what I actually write.
geg6
@Chet:
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Jesus, what an asshole.
Sab
@TenguPhule: Yay!vGo,there. I am so tired of media encouraged firing squads. I have goldfish in a bowling my house that are more media savvy than modern Democrats.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
I can’t believe that an adult has to have it explained to them that there are no “moral victories” in politics. Elections have a winner and loser. Nobody gets a participation ribbon or a consolation prize.
“Most unpopular President” is like saying “worst Super Bowl winner”. It’s loser talk.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: I can’t believe you’re still having trouble understanding what I actually wrote.
TenguPhule
@MomSense:
Sadly, No. SATSQ.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
No Neville Chamberlain, I understood it just fine.
TenguPhule
@Sab:
Is your goldfish interested in running for the Senate?
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
But you believe the anonymous accusers and think Franken should resign.
SatanicPanic
@Cacti: Clearly you didn’t.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
this thread reminds me of Eschaton in 2009. “Everyone I agree with on the internet knows Krugman is right why won’t Obama fight for what the American people all want even if they’re too stupid to know they want it!”
“Because he’s really a misogynist Republican and the proof is Sonia Sotomayor!”
(not an exaggeration)
Betty Cracker
@TenguPhule: Well, you’ve got me there: I will be very surprised if a photo of another Democratic senator pretending to grab a sleeping woman’s boobs is made public.
The Moar You Know
@Cacti: Fighting requires having the courage of your convictions. I am beginning to see what the core problem is that Dems have been having since the 1990s – they don’t have any courage. At all.
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic: Seven shakey accusations.
And at least two are from known Republicans/and or right wing operatives.
This entire thing stinks of Roger Stone ratfucking.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
So you think they’ll be accused of sexual harassment, or you think the fact of oppo research is a big secret?
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: First of all, there was at least one accuser besides the ratf*cker who is not anonymous and who said something on Facebook in 2010. Second, we don’t know that the latest accusers identity hasn’t been shared with other people. We don’t know all of Roy Mooore’s accusers either. Hey, here’s an idea, maybe some of you can try O’Keefeing Politico to prove they’ll print anything. Lemme know how that goes.
The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion
I don’t pretend to know the veracity of any of the accusations against Franken, or the political calculus of forcing his ouster (though I tend to agree with the commenters here who insist that due process, not guilt by acclamation, is the appropriate response, and the only one that doesn’t equal a strategy for political suicide. That being said, I DO know something about survivors of sexual assault. I’m one, and I’ve spent more than twenty years counseling sexual abuse survivors (among others), and as a mandated reporter serving children with every conceivable variety of damage (and some that weren’t conceivable to me before I began the job). Everyone deserves a hearing, if they have an accusation to make. That’s simple justice. On the other hand, “ALWAYS believe X .” is a recipe for a moral panic. In the 80’s, the mantra was “Children don’t lie about things like this”, so when the McMartin kids began talking about being taken to the moon and attending Satanic rites with their alleged abusers, people assumed there must be something to it. Three years ago, I worked with a young woman who had made unfounded rape accusations against no less than a dozen young men (including two who, unknown to her, were exclusively gay.) Seven of the others turned out to have airtight alibis with multiple witnesses. The state’s attorney filed charges on two of the other young men before the alleged victim’s habit of lodging false accusations became evident. After an investigation, it turned out that she was, in fact, being sexually exploited by her step-father. So she was telling the truth about being raped, but not about the guilty party. “Always” is just not applicable to human beings, much less human interactions.
TenguPhule
@Villago Delenda Est:
Three. The former army lady is a registered Republican too.
MazeDancer
@WaterGirl:
Thinking maybe sort of opposite of that might satisfy and help prevent GOP taking out Dems as they please.
Franken says he didn’t do any of this, he says he is going to step aside, because what matters now is women come first, and he doesn’t want to distract from MeToo movement. And that he is going to get his ethics review to clear his name. And then run again.
If elected Dems can’t use ethics inquiry, then GOP will claim all kinds of malarkey.
JaneSays
@TenguPhule: And?
The Republicans are objectively speaking, vile pieces of shit when it comes to the matter of hypocrisy.
So you think the best way to beat them is to emulate them? That it’s high time that our side behave like vile hypocritical pieces of shit, too?
Miss Bianca
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion: Hey, what do you think you’re doing, weighing in here with an opinion based on experience that counsels caution and moderation and no rush to judgement? Da fuq outta here!//
@JaneSays: Yes, that’s right, Jane. What we’re saying is not that there ought to be some standard of objective judgement, like a hearing or something, to deal with accusations, but that we really just crave the freedom to behave like vile hypocritical pieces of shit. How very, very astute of you to have sussed that out. There, happy now?
glory b
@Trentrunner Reckoning:This is more important than tribalism.
Uh huh. We’ll be saying that to each other as they lead us off to the camps.
Barbara
I haven’t read everything. I guess here is my view:
1. Only Al Franken knows the truth about each of these allegations. I say this uncategorically: he almost certainly knows what the right thing to do is and I hope he is honest and explains what that is without dissembling or justifying indefensible behavior.
2. Some allegations strike me as more credible than others, and while they don’t even begin to approach what some others have done, including John Conyers and Roy Moore, they reflect unseemly and problematic behavior, in some cases simple assault.
3. I like Franken. He’s on the side of good and he is supremely smart, both things that make him an asset for us and a threat to Republicans. Notwithstanding, you can’t view allegations of assault only through that lens.
4. As a rule, I think politicians shouldn’t resign unless they have done something illegal. I think a lot of the push for resignation and replacement and recalls is really thwarting voters and democratic processes. Whether it’s Grey being forced out as governor or other similar post-election do overs. I think voters should have the last say. Gillibrand, et al. have their own reasons for going public versus pushing Franken in private. Basically, I don’t care what Gillibrand or Hirono think about this.
5. I come back to what I thought the first time allegations surfaced: the default remedy is “don’t run again.” Or at least, finish out the session (until January of 2018).
6. Everyone has to agree that however it is resolved for Franken, that’s the new standard going forward. If some other person, like a certain senator who used to write pornographic stories to make a living, is suddenly subject to allegations of unwanted touching and knicky knack with his female staff, we don’t get a mulligan. He goes too.
7. All of the above is true even if that makes Democrats subject to a blistering double standard when compared to Republicans. That, among other reasons, is why deliberation is better than any knee jerk resolution, whether pro- or anti-Franken.
TenguPhule
@SatanicPanic:
The one who claimed he groped her in front of her husband, who was taking their picture together in the middle of a public fair. And the picture doesn’t show it and the husband didn’t see it. Nor did anyone else, apparently.
And they’re Republicans.
Does nothing about this setup not look questionable to you?
glory b
@Amaranthine RBG: Due process is ALWAYS the answer.
We’re supposed to be a country of laws, not men, right?
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Great, we now demand instant resignations after one (1) person with a motive to exaggerate makes an accusation.
Yes. THAT’S WHAT I HAVE A PROBLEM WITH.
I realize that you are perfectly fine having Democrats be forced to resign based on anonymous accusations. I am not. That is a basic difference between us.
The Moore story began with four named, on the record accusers. More named, on the record accusers have come forward since then. But I realize that you think that named, on the record accusations are exactly the same thing as anonymous ones.
Wait, you’re under the impression that Politico is not well-known for pushing stories that undermine Democrats? What rock were you living under in 2016? They were one of the primary outlets pushing Benghazi and emails.
TenguPhule
@JaneSays: Moral Purity is a luxury afforded only to the majority in power. And again, if bullshit accusations are the rule for condemning our own, fuck the rules.
geg6
@satby:
Come sit by me. I, too, am a rape victim and I don’t want him to resign without an investigation. I don’t see any Republicans resigning. Is Farenthold still in office? Is Trump still polluting the Oval Office? Is the GOP still supporting Roy Moore?
Plus, the women I believe are the women of his campaign and office and SNL who have stated in no uncertain terms that he was never in any way disrespectful of them. See, I believe the women. The ones who have worked with him for years and years and who have nothing but good things to say about him.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
It’s almost as if there’s a reason why the right to confront your accusers in a criminal proceeding is black letter Constitutional Law.
Mnemosyne
@The Very Reverend Crimson Fire of Compassion:
FWIW, that’s what seems to have happened in the Duke lacrosse case as well. The reason the accused players were able to be cleared so quickly was that the victim went to the ER after she was raped and had a rape kit done, and the defense lawyers were able to use the DNA evidence that had been collected to clear their clients.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: See, even when you try to respond, you just can’t resist.
You can’t resist building strawmen!
I am under no such impression. I’m saying that I am not willing to assume they made it up. But you test that MnemOKeefe, I dare you.
Tony P.
@Major Major Major Major:
Are your eyes thatbad?
–TP
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Well, you be you, then. And someone should have told you that the Brooklyn Bridge was not actually for sale before you gave all your money to that guy who “sold” it to you.
SatanicPanic
@Mnemosyne: OK Alex Jones!
Villago Delenda Est
@SatanicPanic: You’re the one who is reading off stuff from the Infowars playbook.
Mnemosyne
@SatanicPanic:
Here, I’ll make a bet with you. If it comes out after the 2018 midterms that the accusations were made up, you donate $50 to Planned Parenthood. If the anonymous accusers come forward and have credible stories of actual abuse, then I’ll donate $50 to a charity of your choice. Put up or shut up.
justawriter
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I think accusations of sexual harassment are likely and I would put the timing of them to be about two weeks before the National Convention.
Davebo
@Barbara:
Perfectly reasonable and we’ll find out tomorrow what Al has decided to do one way or another.
Raoul
Not sure how to read these tea leaves.
Probably means ‘leave me alone until it’s official’ but there’s wiggle room in interpreting the encouraging + awaiting. Huh.
Cacti
@SatanicPanic:
Neither were the Judges in the Salem Witch Trials concerning the alleged victims.
VincentN
@The Moar You Know:
This is exactly what I’m talking about. The people who disagree with you have their own convictions. They don’t think they’re surrendering. They think they’re fighting for a different cause. But by all means, dismiss every Democrat who disagrees with you as a feckless loser. Are you going to join a different party or abstain from politics? If not, what’s the point of alienating potential allies?
Betty Cracker
@Raoul: That is interesting. I suspect Senators Harris, Gillebrand, McCaskill, etc., have information that we do not. Maybe we’ll find out the whole story tomorrow.
glory b
@Betty Cracker: Yeah, and he also willingly let Wilmer lead him around the country on that stupid “Unity Tour,” letting Berinebros boo him at every stop while he sat there and took it, with Wilmer smirking in the background. I wanted him, but he’s been something of a disappointment.
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Betty Cracker: I hope we find out
as I’ve said, I’m deeply ambivalent about Franken and annoyed by the histrionics in this thread, but politicians making public pronouncements and calls for resignation based on secret information make me nervous. I remember Tom Delay calling on Senators to go read the secret files during Clinton’s impeachment
Raoul
@Cacti:
Looking at the six members, it is possible that there is good faith from the three GOPs. But basically every institution the Republicans touch is probably shit.
themann1086
Named accuser. But sure, keep lashing out, it’s a great look.
Tom
@Raoul: I agree with Raoul. Let’s also remember that if Al goes while Trump stays the difference between the parties is stark, and on an issue where white college educated women can readily tell who’s got their interests at heart and who’s fine with pedophiles.
Mnemosyne
@themann1086:
So he should resign immediately?
TenguPhule
@themann1086: He squeezed/hugged her waist during a photo. She was offended by it.
Perhaps you didn’t actually read it before posting?
debit
@Tom: Not to be a negative Nellie, but do you really think so? Republicans shut down the entire legislative process for years to no comment or objection, but Dems hold up one thing and they are History’s Greatest Monsters. Republicans shut out our choice for the Supreme Court and no one cares, but let one Senator try to hold up a massively unqualified judge and we’re traitors.
It doesn’t matter what happens with Franken because he’s always going to be that filthy liberal sex offender and Roy Moore will always be that good Christian Republican. We can’t win these people. They are without logic, or they simply don’t care. We cannot win these people over so why should give in to them?
Mnemosyne
@themann1086:
Second question: is what Franken did equally as bad as what Murray Miller did, or is there a difference between the two?
glory b
@trollhattan: See Shirley Sherrod and ACORN for your answer.
marcopolo
For all the folks complaining about the anonymity of Franken’s accusers, this just dropped:
I think we have to suspect that all of the Democratic senators who have come out over the past few hours telling him it was time for him to resign knew this story was coming.
Lyrebird
@Sloane Ranger:
Bolding mine,
basically…
THIS!!!!
Fair Economist
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
No. The first accuser has a picture showing the alleged groping NOT happening, and Franken mugging in a way that makes it very unlikely he did.
Likewise, the second accuser claimed Franken groped her butt and as “proof” provided a picture – showing Franken’s hands in clear view and not anywhere near her butt.
*Both* pictures refute the allegations as much as any picture possibly could. Doesn’t that make you suspicious about the allegations?
Mnemosyne
@marcopolo:
I read the story. I still don’t think it’s a resigning offense. I understand that she was very upset by what happened, but to equate what happened to her with what happened to Aurora Perrineau seems over the top, frankly.
TenguPhule
@marcopolo: See me at @449.
Now we’re down to “He squeezed/hugged my waist during a photo being taken where we were supposed to be close together. I was offended because not even my husband touches me that way in public.”
This isn’t even sexual harassment any more, this is feefee level bullshit.
geg6
@marcopolo:
He put his hand around her waist during a photo and squeezed and this is now groping? Fuck that shit.
Cacti
@Fair Economist:
The third accuser who said Franken grabbed her breast showed a picture with his hand clearly on her shoulder blade, and in a body position where he would have had to contort himself around her back to have touched her breast.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
I just want to say Franken has permanently destroyed the dignity and gravitas of comedians as a social class.
AliceBlue
@marcopolo:
Jesus. Next it’s going to be “Al Franken looked at me once.”
glory b
@Cacti: “At best we can salvage our reputation as the party that believes women…”
Yeah, that helped us SOOO much with white women in the 2016 election.//
TenguPhule
@Enhanced Voting Techniques:
This is obviously Hillary’s fault.
debit
@geg6: Don’t you understand that the waist is her No No place?
TenguPhule
@AliceBlue: “He turned me into a newt!”
:”A newt?”
“I got better.”
Mnemosyne
@glory b:
That’s what’s weird about the story that marcopolo posted. The writer doesn’t seem to realize that a majority of white women voted for Trump. Either that, or she’s blaming Bill Clinton for their votes. I couldn’t quite figure it out.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
I’m just waiting for the scale to see if Al Franken weighs as much as a duck.
AliceBlue
For those who appreciate irony at its finest. Mitchell McConnell is now calling on Franken to resign.
debit
@AliceBlue: My point at #450 proven beautifully.
lol chikinburd
Having made the mistake of reading (OK, mostly skimming) this whole benighted thread I notice never quite finding answers to two questions of interest:
1) How long ago was the first accusation, again? Three weeks ago? Might that have been enough time for the party to conduct a very quiet internal investigation to see if there was any there there? I’d wonder if these women Senators might know specific things we don’t, or at least would find it hard to believe that their information level was exactly the same as ours here in the blogosphere.
2) Seeing as Franken looks set to step down now, what’s speculated about the identity of his replacement? Better be a woman, in any case. I don’t know that much about MN politics anymore.
ETA: marcopolo‘s post is the first of the kind I’d been looking for.
Tom
@debit: I agree that it will not make a difference for some people – cough “brother-in-law” cough – but those people are a minority in the United States as a whole and in most states in particular. Let’s focus on those who are persuadable, and who (in many cases) have already persuaded themselves and are looking for someone they can admire to vote for.
Fair Economist
We are starting to get a pattern here. Franken squeezes shoulders and waists during photo ops. That’s not remotely a firing offense. I don’t even see how to count it as any kind of offense because IME it’s pretty common behavior. It’s also not *sexual* harassment.
Cacti
@Mnemosyne:
Somehow, you had to know this would be the fault of the almighty Clenis.
Tom
@AliceBlue: Tell you what, Mitch. Al will resign when Trump does.
Cacti
@lol chikinburd:
Then they should have no trouble producing what they found. Whether Al Franken grabbed someone’s butt isn’t a state secret.
Otherwise the “they must have special secret evidence” explanation can take a walk.
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: She’s saying that the party’s treating Bill Clinton as an honored elder statesman sent a message that Democrats are hypocrites on the sexual harassment issue and that many women may have thus concluded, “I might as well vote for the pussy-grabber.” I don’t agree — BILL Clinton wasn’t running, and Trump’s election will hurt women in ways that have nothing to do with his personal conduct. But she’s not wrong to point out that there has been some hypocrisy with regard to Bill Clinton. I don’t think it’s worth rehashing, but there it is.
TenguPhule
@Fair Economist:
“Get into the frame, Closer, I said closer! That’s it! Now smile for the camera!”
/SMH at our side.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
There has been some hypocrisy regarding Bill’s behavior. I agree with you there. But I am very uncomfortable conflating ass-grabbing in a public situation with forcible rape, which is what that article does.
PJ
@marcopolo: He squeezed her waist. That’s his crime? Anecdotally, I would say there’s a fair portion of the population out there that are waist-squeezers – probably at least 10%. It’s not something I do, but I understand that the people who have done it to me are trying to make the 5 seconds it takes to take the photo less awkward, even though it ends up making it less comfortable.
TenguPhule
@PJ:
And for that his heart must be cut out with a spoon and he must place it before the women while wailing and groveling for forgiveness.
“Evil always wins because good is dumb.” -Dark Helmet, Spaceballs
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
Also, too: I think the Republicans have successfully conflated Bill’s gross but consensual behavior with Republicans’ gross and non-consensual behavior, and that pisses me right off.
Fair Economist
@Mnemosyne:
They’ve had lots of help. Yglesias was pushing that distortion just a week or two ago.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
People who are okay with being touched by strangers in that kind of situation tend to underestimate how much the people who don’t like being touched really really hate it and are deeply uncomfortable with it.
But IMO, that’s a different conversation than the one about sexual assault and sexual harassment.
glory b
“We’re keeping the seat anyway.”
For Franken, maybe. But once you establish the standard, expect the accusations to come fast and furious when we can’t.
Then what?
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@TenguPhule: I can see a link between Franken problems and Hillary’s WWC rust belt problem in the election. A lot of those guys are terrified of some feminist making working while white and male a crime. I sure as heck know that if being seen as pleasing to the female gender becomes a job requirement I become permanently unemployable. Lack of due process in things like Franken don’t help that.
WaterGirl
@Major Major Major Major: I was trying to speak in plain language.
Mnemosyne
Another weird thing in that article: she conflates Juanita Broaddrick with Monica Lewinsky, as though Broaddrick’s accusations of rape and Lewinsky’s consensual sexual affair are the same thing. WTF?
Cacti
At this point, I think it’s entirely fair to ask who doesn’t want an Ethics Committee investigation and why not?
Mike in Pasadena
@Davebo: Fuck you very much.
WaterGirl
@MazeDancer: No ethics review once you are out of the Senate. The only way he gets that ethics review is if he stays.
PJ
@Mnemosyne: Of course it’s entirely different than sexual harassment and assault, but if it were a crime to make another person briefly uncomfortable while photos are taken, then we’d all be doing at least some community service.
ETA: We’re almost at a TBogg unit – it’s the intra-party fighting that usually sends these over the top.
TenguPhule
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: I suspect that the Republicans see this as a can’t lose strategy. Either they take out Democrats with fake accusations or the #metoo movement gets discredited as “bunch of lying sluts” with their voting base and probably a good chunk of the mushy middle. Either way, the real predators benefit.
trollhattan
@WaterGirl:
Merci, you have done me and all of humanity a kind service! :-)
But her emails!!!
@marcopolo:
I think that article may have just converted me into a Republican.
Mnemosyne
@PJ:
Oh, holy fuck. I skimmed the article quickly and assumed she was saying he grabbed her ass, but you’re right. It was her waist:
So, just to be clear, we are all supposed to demand that Franken resign because he put his hand on a woman’s waist while taking a picture. And squeezed when he did it.
trollhattan
@PJ:
My parents went to Paris and all they brought me was one lousy TBogg unit.
TenguPhule
@glory b:
Then we pray to the magical purity unicorns to shit us gold and moonbeams.
The Moar You Know
TBogg unit approaching!
lol chikinburd
@Cacti: I can see all kinds of reasons they’d want to maintain discretion, and don’t so much see the value of publicly trumpeting “This Is The Bad Stuff We Know About This Democrat”, but whatever. Information that takes resources to unearth isn’t “special secret” anything.
ETA: damn, almost.
TenguPhule
@Mnemosyne:
Yes.
WASF.
ETA: TBogg!
WaterGirl
@geg6: Thank you! I read that – her waist?!?!?!?!! And she considered that groping. Holy fucking shit, people have lost their minds.
The Moar You Know
@TenguPhule: It is, for them. Twofer, and it’s two things, women and Democrats, that they truly, deeply hate.
WaterGirl
@AliceBlue: I hope this latest ridiculous story and the hypocrisy of the turtle asking him to resign makes his decide to stay.
PJ
@trollhattan: If you save up 10, you can send them in for a signed picture of Cole mopping naked.
Cacti
@lol chikinburd:
If they’re asking a duly elected U.S. Senator to leave office, there needs to be some compelling evidence for it. Having a kangaroo court of public opinion overturn the results of a democratic election is a dangerous path to take.
debit
@WaterGirl:
Ralph [to his parents]: Mrs. Krabappel and Principal Skinner were in the closet making babies, and I saw one of the babies, and then the baby looked at me.
Chief Wiggum: The baby looked at you? [picks up phone] Sarah, get me Superintendent Chalmers.
The Moar You Know
@WaterGirl: She knows goddamn well it isn’t groping. Doesn’t even matter now, the damage is done and we have done it entirely to ourselves.
If we continue to allow ourselves to get played at this rate, 2018 will be a blowout election – for the GOP. I am fucking despondent right now about the Democratic party. We have nothing but a commitment to virtue politics and an addiction to losing, and I see no signs of that turning around at all.
TenguPhule
@Cacti:
Democratic Party: Hold my beer.
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Our party has learned absolutely nothing from 2016.
I am increasingly less optimistic about 2018.
WaterGirl
@debit: I don’t know that reference but yeah, it’s that bad.
I want to know how many people read the “He groped me, too!” and never read far enough to know that he squeezed her waist. We are going to lose an excellent sitting senator for no good reason.
She froze when he squeezed her waist and that diminished her? I have to wonder if there’s some trauma in her childhood.
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl: The Simpsons.
Keith G
It seems that Al Franken has been a creep. It sucks that he is a creep whose sense of humor I have been attracted to. It sucks that he is a creep whose political views and political office allowed him to influence policies in ways that I like.
Al Franken’s conduct was wrong. Two years ago, this might not be such a big deal. But today it is. He fucked up and he will be paying the price.
The good news is that Franklin’s acceptance of responsibility for his egregious behavior will not unduly harm Democrats. The earliest that a special election can be called to fill his seat will be next November. Until that time, the seat will be held by whomever the Democratic governor of Minnesota chooses. Hopefully the governor will choose a woman who is politically skilled enough to hold that seat during the special election.
To Senator Al Franken: Thank you for your service, but unfortunately you had some crappy behavior in your past. It’s time for you to go.
Weaselone
Is this latest story from the 7th accuser, or is it an 8th? Because if it’s the 7th, a whole lot of people need to answer exactly how squeezing a waist during a photo is pushed them over into the “he should resign column “
debit
@Keith G: Blow me.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
If the GOP sees that they can force a sitting Dem Senator out of office based on anonymous accusations, then we’re finished as a party.
tobie
Grabbing by the waist is groping? Oh my. The #MeToo movement is being discredited by these kinds of statements.
TenguPhule
@Keith G:
And if you believe that load of hooie, I have a nice bridge to sell you.
Betty Cracker
@Weaselone: I’m losing track too, but I think the 7th accuser was the one in the Politico story who claims Franken tried to forcibly kiss her, and the 8th is the one who published in The Atlantic today about Franken grabbing her waist, and that came out after Gillebrand, Harris, et al, called on Franken to resign.
debit
@WaterGirl: Yep, Simpsons. The episode also had the immortal exchange of:
Principal Skinner: We’re not coming down until you acknowledge and celebrate our love!
Maude Flanders: Excuse me, Edna. I don’t think we’re talking about love here. We are talking about S-E-X in front of the C-H-I-L-D-R-E-N!
Krusty the Clown: Sex Cauldron? I thought they closed that place down!
KithKanan
@Mnemosyne:
Speaking as a guy, I try not to initiate photo-waist-hugs (even though I’m a very touchy-feely person, I’m socially awkward and incredibly cautious/anxious about touching anyone I’m not completely clear is okay with it). Women I’m taking group photos with do this to me quite a lot, often women who are otherwise very much not okay with being touched for any other reason. This has confused me for a while, but I’ve never made a federal case out of it.
Kathleen
He is being set up.
Cacti
@TenguPhule:
The GOP wants to kill the Democratic Party.
The virtue signalers and purity ponies want to hand them the sword.
Peale
@Tom: Ah, you see, its too late. Al Franken stubbornly held on for what, three weeks! Since he did not immediately resign and people tried to defend him, both sides. We should immediately stop defending anyone on our side or we’re “just like them.”
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
I suspect that Gillibrand et al are calling for his resignation because of the Atlantic story. Not because of the accusation in it, but because it draws a bunch of dots.
Note that I’m not saying it connects the dots since she equates having her waist squeezed with other women being raped, but she sure lay down a bunch of dots that conservatives are going to run with.
Fair Economist
@Peale:
Franken is being accused of grabbing somebody by the *waist* during a photo op.
If that requires a resignation (for Dems only, obviously IOKIYAR) we’ll be lucky to have 20 Senators left by the end of 2018.
debit
@Kathleen: I now believe this as well.
Cacti
I was right about Snowden and Greenwald when being right about them wasn’t a popular opinion on this blog.
I get the same feeling about these accusations against Franken. Something about this whole thing stinks.
Peale
@Mnemosyne: Yep. For what its worth, Bill did not sexually harass that woman. There were very long lurid sessions based on witness testimony that went on 100s of pages, but none of it amounted to sexual harassment in the workplace. Antony Weiner sending unsolicited pictures of his cock – yeah, that’s sexual harassment. But Bill’s conduct with monica didn’t meet what would have counted as sexual harassment at the time and wouldn’t today when the bar is much, much, lower.
Peale
@Fair Economist: But if you say that, then you are practically a child rapist yourself. Even saying “stop for a moment and think about the consequences” – might as well set up shop to ensnare girls into the life – you’re that kind of criminal cynic.
Raoul
I’m sure this Tbogg unit is a shitshow.
But after reading (and commenting) up to about #350, I went away (and did some offline work I needed to do!). Popping back because Schumer has put his nail in the coffin. Huh.
eta: And if Schumer piled on because the Atlantic published a story of a photo moment with a waist grab, jeebus. I just don’t know what the f-k is going on.
debit
And you know what? If it turns out that Franken was slimed like Shirley Sherrod, everyone who called for his resignation here will be the first ones to be all outraged.
Raoul
@KithKanan: I go to a weekly AA meeting. It’s 99% gay men. We circle for the serenity prayer. 15 years ago, there was some waist-level touches in the huddle. Now, we are all very careful to be (height differences accommodated as best as possible) shoulder-blade level.
But, really, at the freakin Obama first inaugural, perfect care had to be maintained 100% not to even touch a waist?
I am just — really — at a loss for what is acceptable. No contact at all, ever? I’m (hyperbole alert) moving to a Latin country that at least acknowledges that we have bodies. And I’m a freakn’ 50% Swede with WASP tendencies!
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: FWIW, CNN (not Cillizza, an actual reporter) says it was the Politico story that broke the dam.
AliceBlue
I will never be convinced that this wasn’t a hit job. I’m hoping that since McConnell chimed in with his jaw-dropping hypocrisy, Franken will say fuck all of you, I’m staying.
Raoul
Breaking news (and I hate how that is overused)
SFAW
Well, it certainly is heartwarming to see that it takes a “if we let a Dem ‘get away’ with (possibly) more than a few instances of shitty behavior, then we’re no better than the Rethuglicans” circular firing squad to get this joint to a TBogg-unit-plus stage.
Only thing(s) that could cap this off is/are: “but his e-mails” and “Goldman Sachs!!” and “he’s just as bad as
TrumpMoore!!!”Plus a guest comment from Susan Sarandon.
SFAW
@Betty Cracker:
And THEY are actual reporters? Did VanDerWhoops and Whatsisname leave? It’s not as if Politico has a ton more credibility than the FTFNYT.
SFAW
@debit:
Unpossible! And besides, Shirley Sherrod called for the public execution of all white people in America, so she deserved it?
Betty Cracker
@SFAW: Actually, VanDerWhoops and Whatsisname DID leave, and Politico has been a better organization ever since! I read the story. Seemed pretty well sourced. Could it be bullshit? Sure.
Ridnik Chrome
Contrasting headlines at Vox Media:
“Democrats Are Finally Holding Themselves To A Higher Standard On Harassment”
“How the Alt-Right Duped MSNBC Into Firing One Of Its Contributors”
Cacti
Meanwhile, as the Dems are busy ridding themselves of one of their most effective Senators…
Clarence Thomas’s wife was presenting an award to James O’Keefe at a Trump Hotel.
And probably sharing gales of laughter at what a bunch of gullible dupes the Democrats are.
WaterGirl
@Raoul: I just called Franken’s DC office. My message said that I’m 100% sure that this is all a hit job, but that even if i’m wrong about that, the right thing to do is stay in the Senate and go through the Ethics investigation and set the stage for others to be investigated when someone comes forward.
(202) 224-5641
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
I am still very uncomfortable forcing Franken to resign over anonymous accusations, especially since the ones that do have names attached seem to be somewhat less than advertised.
Mnemosyne
@WaterGirl:
I think it’s going to heavily depend on what his family decides. If they don’t want to have to ride the wave of bullshit, then I think he’ll resign.
Raoul
somewhat less than advertised
Yuuuuup.
Sophie Montane
Do any other women here find that Atlantic article kind of baffling? She says he squeezed her “waist.” I have never heard of that being considered groping. I’m a woman, I’ve been groped, and I would never in a million years considering somebody squeezing my waist to be groping. And I’m somebody who doesn’t like that waist-squeezy thing — it always happens to me at family reunion picture time and it’s annoying af. But it’s not groping.
I seriously kept re-reading the article, trying to figure out if something happened between the “waist” reference and the “flesh” reference. It’s just weird.
WaterGirl
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, but if he does resign, it doesn’t matter whether he did it or not, his reputation will be forever trashed, and your reputation is something you have to live with forever. I hope he takes the long view.
This will NOT go away if he resigns. The other side will say Al was guilty because he resigned, and Moore and others are not because they didn’t. Fuckers.
WaterGirl
@Sophie Montane: It’s just weird. I think it’s bullshit that the Atlantic even published that article. Even worse that they allowed the headline to read that “he groped me, too” when there’s no circumstance where waist squeezing is considered groping.
TenguPhule
@WaterGirl: They just want clicks at this point, good journalism be damned.
Feebog
Late to the party, but I want to make two points. I have done sexual harassment investigations for many years for a federal agency. First rule, you don’t give credibility to anonymous allegations. Allegations are made on the record, period. Second observation, I see a lot of comments here saying since Dayton will appoint a Democrat, Franken should resign. Would your opinion be the same if Dayton was a Republican?
Betty Cracker
@Mnemosyne: I can see both sides and am torn on this issue myself, tbh, but this thread (and Twitter) has been an education, and not in a good way!
@Sophie Montane: I can envision scenarios in which someone could be creepy AF without actually touching your boobs or butt. But yeah, she should have kept it to herself. Too easy to misconstrue such a thing, so it’s not fair to Al Franken. Too trivial sounding, so it doesn’t bolster the alleged victims’ cases either.
Scarcelight
Boy, it’s been amazing to watch Democrats turn immediately to sounding like Roy Moore defenders.
The Democratic Party: “We stand for women…unless it’s one of our own.”
WaterGirl
@Feebog:
This.
Mnemosyne
@Scarcelight:
Roy Moore has named accusers who were willing to go on the record with detailed accounts of him pursuing them while they were still high school students. Several of them have documentation in Moore’s own handwriting.
Franken has a woman who did multiple performances of a skit with him and two women who says he touched their waist while taking a photo. Oh, and some anonymous accusers who are unwilling to make their accusations public.
Yep, same thing!
Sophie Montane
At this point, the only absolutely incontrovertible fact is that the Democratic conference has decided Franken must go. What we don’t know is why.
Mnemosyne
@Betty Cracker:
It’s the anonymous thing that’s bugging me, especially since the non-anonymous accusations have not added up to much. If we’re setting a precedent that Democrats have to resign based on anonymous accusations that have never been independently examined, then we’ve just left ourselves wide open for a whole world of ratfucking.
Mnemosyne
@Sophie Montane:
It’s entirely possible that they’ve decided that he’s too damaged even if he turns out to be innocent. That’s a political calculation. I think it’s going to bite them in the ass in the midterms, though.
TenguPhule
@Scarcelight: We demand fucking proof, no guilt by accusation, you fucking GOP wanker.
Sophie Montane
@Mnemosyne: Yeah, of course it’s a political calculation. But what are the elements of the equation? None of us really know. We don’t know if they have private info about the accusations. We don’t know if they’re making a judgment call based on how this is playing. We don’t know if they’re making a boneheaded mistake. We don’t know jack.
Jeffery Bahr
@MJS: I believe he has said that, any number of times. He fully admits that the “groping” (as even NPR calls it) was a stunt — involving a clearly set-up, not candid, photo — where he put his hands 4 to 6 inches away from a co-entertainer’s flak vest-covered breast plate. Why not wait for the Senate Ethics committee? You can bet the Republicans can and will, and meanwhile, yet again, we lose a powerful voice for progressive policy.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
@Scarcelight: Quite fucking equating statuary rape with harassment you ignorant jackass. There is no such thing as consent with the underage.
Feebog
One other note, when we lose the vote on the reconferenced tax bill by one vote because Franken resigned, will all those sitting on their moral high ground acknowledge they have been played?
Jim, Foolish Literalist
@Feebog: that only happens if Franken’s replacement is seated in time and votes yes in place of some non-Corker R who switches to no, neither of which I think is very likely
actually, two R’s would have to join Corker, then Franken’s replacement, etc
WaterGirl
@Feebog: I’m gonna have to go with a no on that. So much short-sighted thinking!
Mnemosyne
@Sophie Montane:
And I would like to know those things rather than have the decision made in the proverbial smoke-filled room behind closed doors. I want a LOT more light on this so I don’t feel like Franken is being railroaded based on flimsy accusations. YMMV.
Enhanced Voting Techniques
So according to TPM the straw the broke the camels back is the waist hug. And the kiss and the fake breast groop in sex body armor are two different incidents on a USO tour and the democratic senate woman have been calling on Franken to resign since the first accusation.
So sounds it was hit. Just from who? The Ratfuckers of the Right, or the Feminists on the Left. Place your bets.
WaterGirl
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: If I were Al Franken, the waist hug story would be what convinced me to stay and fight.
Betty Cracker
@Enhanced Voting Techniques: “Statuary rape?” This just keeps getting weirder!
TenguPhule
@Feebog:
No, SATSQ.
They’ll blame us for not believing in the power of purity and not clapping for Tinkerbell hard enough.
WaterGirl
@Betty Cracker: Once they locked him out of the malls, he had to go for the statues outside in the parking lot.
Scarcelight
@TenguPhule: LOL! I’m sure Roy Moore’s defenders are saying the very same thing!
It’s sort of depressing how similar the two tribes are.
Davebo
I’m torn on the Franken case and honestly I’m a little disturbed how so many here are not.
Squeezing someone’s side during a photo op is negligible. Grabbing ass in public isn’t. Hell my girlfriend would be miffed at me if I did that.
Spider-Dan
Franken must resign because:
1) he pretended to grope a woman’s breasts for the camera… during a comedy tour in which she was on tape actually groping someone else’s butt
2) he groped a woman’s shoulder blade
3) he groped a woman’s waist
This is ratfcking, folks. And those of us who are saying “It’s fine to throw Franken under the bus because MN has a Dem governor” are going to be in for the most predictable surprise of all time when immediate Dem resignation becomes the accepted standard and suddenly, accusations of groping a woman’s forearm surface against a Dem in a state with a GOP governor.
TenguPhule
@Scarcelight: We have third party verification and his signature on various writings. Try again, comrade.
TenguPhule
@Davebo:
And there’s no proof he’s done so.
Which seems to be getting lost in the whirlwind of bullshit accusations against Franken.
its like watching Fox news in action.
Davebo
@TenguPhule:
Sorry, hadn’t realized Franken had denied the claim. Seems the Google missed it.
SWMBO
@rikyrah: @rikyrah: I love you but in an internet, bloggy sort of way. Keep bringing it.
SWMBO
@Cheryl Rofer: We don’t want to be the Ratfucked Party either.
SWMBO
@kindness: He should do what is best for his constituents. The late, great Sen. Ted Kennedy did not have the most spotless, squeaky clean record regarding women. Yet the people of Massachusetts reelected him again and again. And he served them well. Calling for Franken’s resignation before the Senate Ethics Committee has investigated does not serve his constituents well. He needs to stay and let the process take its turn.
SWMBO
@Cheryl Rofer: We are not going to impeach President Pussygrabber. We don’t have the votes. And until we do, I think we need to let the process run its course.
SWMBO
@VincentN: This weaponization of accusations will continue. PUT THEM UNDER OATH. Have the Ethics Committee hold hearings. Set a precedent if Moore gets elected. (Because he sure as hell won’t call for an Ethics hearing if he gets elected.)
Also this weaponizing of accusations to get both sides to discredit the accusers is making it harder for women to come forward. The reason some men have gotten away with it for so long is because women weren’t believed. If the standard becomes all women are believed vs. no women are believed, then we lose. I don’t know if these women are credible or not. Instead of trying them in the court of public opinion, let them testify under oath. When we can develop a standard of believing women because it holds up under scrutiny then these unproven accusations in the future will have some history. And if it is a subtle attack to get women to not come forward, it will work if we don’t believe and scrutinize it.
SWMBO
@different-church-lady: We don’t have to join the crazy.
SWMBO
@Cheryl Rofer: But we will never know without an investigation. The Democrats have called for an investigation. The Republicans who can start a Congressional investigation at the drop of an FBI leak haven’t started an investigation into Franken. Why? Because mob rule is easier for them than due process?
Keith G
@debit:
I like sucking dicks. I’ve been enthusiastic giver of blow jobs since my teens, so not much of an insulting retort from you. I do find it interesting that you are defending someone who has issues with proper sexual boundaries by directing that I should perform a sex act on you.
Birds of a feather?
Besides, I’ve never been one to give blow job to strangers, anonymous people online, or folks who seem to have anger management issues.
Cheers.
debit
@Keith G: You know, I would probably care about your opinion, except for the fact that you’re wrong, wrong in every way.
John Thomson
@BobbyK: Absolutely!