Open Thread: Good for Nancy Pelosi

She didn’t satisfy the ALL DEMOCRATS MUST CONTINUALLY APOLOGIZE FOR ANY DEM’S CRIMES crew, but nevertheless

Rep. John Conyers said Sunday he was stepping down from his post as the top Democrat on the Judiciary Committee amid accusations of sexual harassment that have put his party’s leaders in a bind.

The decision by the Michigan lawmaker — who has held his seat since 1965 and who denies the harassment allegations — followed several days of internal deliberation and pressure from Democratic colleagues, including Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, who wanted Conyers to leave the high-profile post but didn’t want to be seen as forcing him out.

Congressional Black Caucus Chairman Cedric Richmond (D-La.) and assistant Democratic leader Jim Clyburn (D-S.C.) reached out to some CBC members over the Thanksgiving recess to take the temperature of the caucus, according to multiple sources. The group is arguably the most powerful bloc within the House Democratic Caucus and is fiercely protective of its members, particularly Conyers, who was a founding member.

In an interview Sunday on NBC’s “Meet the Press,” Pelosi seemed to underscore the cautious approach by taking pains to praise Conyers’ record and call for “due process,” even as she said she believed “he will do the right thing.” She also referred to Conyers as an “icon” for his lengthy service and work “to protect women.” …

Privately, Pelosi has been working behind the scenes with leaders of the CBC and Conyers to figure out his next steps. One senior Democratic aide said she was trying “to lay groundwork for him to step aside gracefully.”….

Conyers is an icon, even if he’s twenty years past his glory days, and a frontal attack on him would’ve served nobody but the authoritarian enablers who’ve been hawking the “Either a Black man or a white woman — only one token can win” strategy since the mid-1800s. (Read Ta-Nahesi Coates’ essay on “The Great Schism” for more detail.)
.

MEANWHILE…

(Also, ten quatloos that Chuck Todd has some sexual-harrassment claims in his newsroom closet.)

148 replies
  1. 1
    Bobby Thomson says:

    Also, ten quatloos that Chuck Todd has some sexual-harrassment claims in his newsroom closet.

    You’re not really going out on a limb there.

  2. 2
    MomSense says:

    We’re at fucking war with authoritarians and I’m tired of Democrats calling for us to unilaterally disarm. If we are seriously discussing resignations, trump can go first.

  3. 3
    Suzanne says:

    Conservative voters are willing to stand by Moore because they like winning, as it leads to more opportunities to pwn libtards.

    Good Lord, they say it like we think there’s some mystery to it. Au contraire, we know exactly how craven they are.

  4. 4
    Shantanu Saha says:

    How is supporting a serial abuser of women and child predator who stalked teenagers in malls NOT being a ruthless defender of power and promoter of double standards? Oh, IOKIYAR.

  5. 5
    TS says:

    @MomSense:

    If we are seriously discussing resignations, trump can go first.

    say it loud – again and again

  6. 6
    bmoak says:

    IIRC, the Congressional fund that paid out settlements for claims against Congresspeople (and presumably staffers) paid out about $15 million over the past decade or so. The payout for Conyers was reportedly $27 thousand. Granted, the fund was used for settlements other than sexual harassment/misconduct, but I’m betting that there’re a few Reps and Senators who needed a lot more than 27K to get their victims to settle. Maybe Nancy should insist one releasing ALL the names, not just the one that Mike “Pizzagate” Cernovich paid a bounty for.

  7. 7
    piratedan says:

    @Bobby Thomson: anyone know who the sheep hired for representation?

  8. 8
    rikyrah says:

    I will say it again..

    Conyers’ settlement was $15,000.

    The Congressional Slush Fund dolled out $15,000,000.

    WHO are responsible for the other $14,970,000?

    Come one…
    Time for us to know the rest of it.

  9. 9
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @bmoak:

    Yeah, its disgusting that tax dollars funded these settlements that are being kept secret.

  10. 10
    m.j. says:

    Chuck Todd snorts Koch.

    By the way, everyone should be reading Jane Mayer’s Dark Money.

  11. 11
    tobie says:

    Anyone have a number or email address where one can call or write NBC to complain? In recent years there have been two interviews I’ve seen where the host has badgered the guest. This was one. The other was Norah O’Donnell’s interview with Valerie Jarrett. The disrespect shown the guests in both cases is appalling.

  12. 12
    rikyrah says:

    Banana in the tailpipe, people

  13. 13
    Lapassionara says:

    @MomSense: Yes. This. A thousand times this.

  14. 14
    bmoak says:

    @m.j.: @m.j.: I’m about halfway through it on my Nook now. It gets me so upset that I can only read it in chunks. The problem is, I’ve finished all the Keigo Higashino available in English and have nothing to break it up with.

  15. 15
    Mnemosyne says:

    @rikyrah:

    Yep. It’s not a coincidence that this shit is coming out about Democrats right when much worse shit hit the fan about Republicans.

    To any Republican who tells me that Franken or Conyers should resign, I say, “You first.”

  16. 16
    Mnemosyne says:

    Also, Trump’s tweets show exactly what the strategy is: they’re claiming that Democrats and Republicans are equally dirty, so people may as well vote for the Republican so they can save the baybeez and keep Black and Brown people down.

    That’s the real purpose of “Both Sides Do It” — giving people an excuse to vote Republican. If one party is clearly more ethical than the other, than it’s hard to justify voting Republican, but if everyone’s dirty, why not vote for the child molester?

  17. 17
    FlipYrWhig says:

    Republicans and conservatives really do seem to think that hypocritical Democrats and liberals make excuses for their sexy-sextime-scandal-tainted compadres AND ITS TOTALLY NOT FAIR.

    AFAICT Clarence Thomas, David Vitter, Newt Gingrich, Bill O’Reilly, and of course Donald Trump have been robustly defended for years. And the nation has collectively decided to ignore that the Republicans’ longest-serving Speaker of the House MOLESTED CHILDREN HOLY SHIT PEOPLE IF THIS WAS A DEMOCRAT IT WOULD BE EVERY FUCKING CAMPAIGN COMMERCIAL FOR DECADES

  18. 18

    @Mnemosyne: In my most cynical moments, I think if Moore loses, concern about sexual abuse will vanish the way concern about ebola did.

  19. 19
    trollhattan says:

    “I’m no Roy Moore defender, so hold my beer and watch me defend Roy Moore, y’all.”

  20. 20
    tobie says:

    @Mnemosyne: what I don’t get is why people like Matthew Yglesias felt compelled to make this argument first. He’s the one who brought up Bill Clinton in the context of the MeToo movement. Is this some weird religious thing where progressives think that if they shout mea culpa loud enough, God will forgive them and they’ll no longer be forced to walk in the (political) desert?

  21. 21
    Emma says:

    @tobie: Actually I think it’s a way to bring attention moral superiority. “Look at meeee!… I’m soooo pure in thought and deed… that I’ll screw over POCs and women and LBGT and everyone else I’m always blathering about… just so everyone knows how purely superior I aaaammm!”

  22. 22
    JPL says:

    Wouldn’t it have been great if Nancy said of course the allegations are horrible, but can we talk about the tax cuts for the rich now.

  23. 23

    WTH is this Donovan person, why should I care about what he says.
    NP should have said, let the molester-in-chief resign then we will talk about Conyers.

  24. 24
    randy khan says:

    @tobie:

    Yglesias is a mystery to me on this. There’s a certain Slate pitch quality to the calls for Clinton to have resigned all those years ago. It’s like they’re imagining a counterfactual world in which any sex scandal would be enough to force someone out of office and how that would make sexual harassment less common.

    And the response, it seems to me, is that it doesn’t work that way at all. First, Republicans seem to be forgiven by the base more or less no matter what they do. (I mean, really, look at all the people who’ve declared they’re totally fine with electing someone who sexually assaulted a 14 year old.) Second, there’s a huge difference between sex and sexual harassment, and one of the differences is that sexual harassment happens in situations in which the victims have huge incentives not to talk about it. Not to mention that I have yet to come up with a good reason that I should care what politicians are doing in bed or with whom.

  25. 25
    MomSense says:

    @FlipYrWhig:

    Don’t forget Mark Foley.

  26. 26

    @tobie: MattY got a lot of heh indeeds from BJ commentariat too.

  27. 27
    Boudica says:

    @rikyrah: Part of the Conyers’ scandal is the victim wasn’t paid from that fund. She was paid as a temp employee (who never worked) with Conyers’ office funds.

  28. 28
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @MomSense:

    If we are seriously discussing resignations, trump can go first.

    This has been my standard FB response to anyone demanding that Franken (and now Conyers) resign: “Has trump resigned yet? If not, STFU”

  29. 29
    Corner Stone says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Can you be more specific?

  30. 30
    Gretchen says:

    @JPL: that’s exactly what she did https://crooksandliars.com/2017/11/nancy-pelosi-refuses-let-chuck-todd-end
    Todd badgered about sex scandals, she countered that she was there to talk about the regressive tax changes, he said, sorry, have to end it there.
    I can’t believe that nobody is paying attention to the fact that Franken’s accuser went on Hannity and lied about Shirley Sherrod to get her fired. She’s a known liar whose m.o.is to lie about Democrats to get them fired. Franken goes hard after Sessions, they send her out to take him down the next week, and Democrats mutter “Believe women. He should step down.” Nonsense.

  31. 31

    @randy khan: Yggy hasn’t totally kicked the slate pitch habit even after all these years.

  32. 32
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @randy khan:

    Yglesias is a mystery to me on this.

    Hell, he’s a mystery on everything. He is wildly inconsistent–sometimes a liberal, sometimes a “libertarian”, sometimes a fucking idiot….

  33. 33

    @Corner Stone: Before the Franken thing came out, there were a bunch of commenters here who were going on about Bill C’s escapades and how he needs to disappear from public life and such.

    ETA: And when the Franken thing came out we had a slew of posts about that, which included a lot of self flagellation.

  34. 34
    tobie says:

    @randy khan: I agree that there’s a big difference between sex and sexual harrassment. My European friends say it’s an American thing to conflate the two, Puritanism at work.

  35. 35
    JPL says:

    @Gretchen: Thanks. I should have pulled up the segment, rather than read or listen to msm.

  36. 36
    Suzanne says:

    @tobie: Progressives/liberals really want to believe that we are “better”. More moral, more ethical, have more integrity, are more tuned in to the ways people suffer, more compassionate. The self-conception is a large part of that, and it leads to self-flagellation. It’s annoying, but it comes from a good place, so I don’t get too upset about it.

  37. 37
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: A lot of people who comment here simply do not like Bill Clinton.

  38. 38
    Brachiator says:

    The Republicans are trying to play a smart game, having it both ways. They can condemn Roy Moore while letting Trump defend him. Heard Tim Scott do this on a rebroadcast of the ABC Sunday pundit show. He condemned Moore but refused to criticize Trump’s defense of Moore.

    The Senate dropped their version of the tax bill just before Thanksgiving. It’s 515 pages and the GOP is determined to get tax reform passed before Christmas.

    What I hate is that the ABC Sunday roundtable mused about whether Congress would pass tax reform without once mentioning how crappy both the House and Senate bills are. And earlier they let Tim Scott lie about how the plan helps lower income people.

  39. 39
    eemom says:

    Yglesias is insufferable, as is everyone else jumping on that moronic “Clinton should have resigned” shitwagon. Including Kirsten Gillibrand: WTF??

    I am so done — so very VERY done — with these pious, traitorous assholes. Don’t know what they’re trying to prove and don’t care. Just want them to STFU and die.

    btw, there’s also a new bash Joe Biden meme making the rounds amongst the puritards. Bashing Joe Biden over Anita Hill is SUCH a great use of time. Oh…..the monster whom that debacle got on the Court, who’s still on there? Hell, that’s no fun to rant about.

  40. 40
    tobie says:

    @Suzanne: @Emma: your explanation strikes me as right. In the context of what the country is going through right now, though, it feels like an unconditional surrender to the forces of evil for the sake of a few brownie points.

  41. 41

    @Brachiator: Is the idea for doing tax reform before the end of the year to have it apply to the 2017 tax year, or are they just rushing it so it takes up as little time as possible in the media?

  42. 42
    Anne Laurie says:

    @tobie:

    what I don’t get is why people like Matthew Yglesias felt compelled to make this argument first. He’s the one who brought up Bill Clinton in the context of the MeToo movement. Is this some weird religious thing where progressives think that if they shout mea culpa loud enough, God will forgive them and they’ll no longer be forced to walk in the (political) desert?

    Yglesias isn’t a “progressive”, he’s a libertarian. Used to be a capital-letter registered Libertarian, in fact. Like many libertarians, he wants to hang out with the Democrats when it’s about smoking dope or having sex — but when it comes to actual power, passing laws about taxes and public goods, he’ll run straight to the Repubs. Again.

  43. 43

    @Omnes Omnibus: The Guardian is their bible, which considers BC neoliberal, so worse than any R.

  44. 44
    Feathers says:

    @randy khan: This. For Christ’s sake, Lewinski told friends in California that she wanted to blow Clinton before she left for her internship. To turn this into a tale of his abusing his power is the stupidest of takes. Foolish, yes, but to fit a story where she was actively pursuing him into the standard abuser narrative ignores a lot.

    The details of these things actually do matter a lot. I must confess I don’t pay much heed to scandals, because the truth is, we don’t know what other people are up to.

    I’ve been watching a lot of Agatha Christie since the election. The murders aren’t realistic, but the observations about human nature are. Greed and pettiness can lead to tragically horrible deeds. And respectability counts for nothing.

  45. 45
    Suzanne says:

    @tobie:

    it feels like an unconditional surrender to the forces of evil for the sake of a few brownie points.

    That’s exactly what it is, and that’s why I don’t sign on to any of that bullshit.

  46. 46
    eemom says:

    @Emma:

    Actually I think it’s a way to bring attention moral superiority. “Look at meeee!… I’m soooo pure in thought and deed… that I’ll screw over POCs and women and LBGT and everyone else I’m always blathering about… just so everyone knows how purely superior I aaaammm!”

    And, as was frequently noted in the Sarandon thread, it’s people who have nothing to lose if Franken and/or Conyers were to resign that are fixating on this shit. Funny that.

  47. 47
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Trentrunner:
    That photo doesn’t show what you insist it does. What is wrong with you?

  48. 48

    @Amir Khalid: Trolling troll’s gotta troll. For Mother Russia.

  49. 49
    Brachiator says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    A lot of people who comment here simply do not like Bill Clinton.

    I don’t like Bill Clinton. He was needlessly reckless. Gave his enemies the stick they used to beat him with.

    His inaction on Rwanda was shameful (but he shares blame for this with many others).

    But he was a better president than any of the recent Republicans. The Impeachment was total BS. And the claims of corruption with respect to the Clinton Foundation are false, while Trump charities look pretty damn shady.

  50. 50

    @eemom: Mostly men, fancy that.

  51. 51
    germy says:

    @Gretchen:

    Franken’s accuser went on Hannity and lied about Shirley Sherrod to get her fired. She’s a known liar whose m.o.is to lie about Democrats to get them fired. Franken goes hard after Sessions, they send her out to take him down the next week, and Democrats mutter “Believe women. He should step down.” Nonsense.

    and someone accused Franken of inviting her into a bathroom (?)

    Franken is too polite to call her a fucking liar, but he’s been pretty definite that he didn’t do that.

  52. 52
    Emma says:

    @Feathers: Christie is highly underrated as a social commentator. Both Miss Marple and Poirot are thoroughgoing cynics about human nature, which is why they are successful.

  53. 53
    germy says:

    @Feathers:

    For Christ’s sake, Lewinski told friends in California that she wanted to blow Clinton before she left for her internship.

    If she’d found some republican to blow instead, we probably wouldn’t know her name today.

  54. 54

    would’ve served nobody but the authoritarian enablers who’ve been hawking the “Either a Black man or a white woman — only one token can win” strategy since the mid-1800s.

    Any chance you could repeat this about 50 times? Just to make sure it takes?

  55. 55

    @Brachiator: Deepika Padukone (who plays Padmavati) was supposed to be at that junket Modi is hosting for Ivanka, has decided not to go. I must say that won me over.

  56. 56

    @Feathers: The books are much better than the Masterpiece productions, which can be a bit hokey.

  57. 57
    Suzanne says:

    @Brachiator: The biggest problem that I have with this impulse to fire, fire, fire everyone is that the list of men who either harassed a woman or who turned a blind eye for the sake of career expediency is a pretty long fucking list. The “innocent bystanders” are just as responsible for the dominance of rape/harassment culture. It will only change when more women are in positions of leadership, and maybe not even then. So taking scalps is ineffective, and likely to set back the agenda for women in the meantime. No thanks.

  58. 58
    bmoak says:

    Kevin Drum had an interesting take on how the Republicans will weaponize sexual abuse allegations here and how this could undermine the whole #metoo movement.

  59. 59
    Sab says:

    @Emma: I remember when the internet was much younger and Matt Yglesias was writing professionally about health policy as his day job, and chatting on blogs at night. One night someone in their house in DC got bitten by the household dog that was chasing a rat. Much discussion ensued about whether she should go to the ER since she had not much money and no insurance. They decided that she should, since ERs are free.(?!!!)

    I haven’t been able to take him seriously since. He was happily taking money to write about an important subject about which he obviously knew nothing whatever.

    At the same time, Ezra Klein, still in his infancy, knew everything, and read all those boring bills and called experts to ask about them.

    Some people are reporters. Others are just writers.

  60. 60
    randy khan says:

    @Brachiator:

    And the claims of corruption with respect to the Clinton Foundation are false, while Trump charities look pretty damn shady.

    Shady doesn’t even begin to describe it.

  61. 61
    magurakurin says:

    @eemom: but looking back with 20/20 hindsight, in cold, hard, cynical, politically tactical terms, he should have resigned. It would have ended that horrible shit show (and it was all bullshit, I know, I lived through it, too. And I didn’t want him to resign at the time, not even a little) and given Gore 2+ years to shore up his position. He almost certainly would have been re-elected under those circumstances. The world would be a different place now, for sure. I would imagine that 9/11 doesn’t even happen since they would have stayed on with their laser focus on Bin Ladin, who the Bushies ignored until it was too late. Sometimes a tactical retreat is the best course…

    but that is hindsight.

  62. 62
    rikyrah says:

    THREAD

    Jared Yates Sexton‏Verified account @JYSexton

    With Trump’s base showing strong preferences for authoritarianism, and continuing to support a serial predator of children, it’s time to look this problem in its face. 1/
    9:22 AM – 25 Nov 2017

    This isn’t a political problem. This is a societal issue, a major, major existential problem with who we are and how we view the world. 2/

    This is no longer about Democrats and Republicans, even though the latter fostered this group and gave it power and influence. This is something larger. 3/

    We have a substantial group in this country who are okay with a president who would stamp out free speech, free press, and are comfortable with foreign influence and collusion. 4/

    They didn’t blink when a woman was murdered by white supremacists. They don’t worry about mass shootings. They support fascism in totality. 5/

    We’re so focused on Trump and this political circus that we’re missing the BIG BIG picture. We have a growing, powerful section of our fellow citizens who do not believe in a democratic, shared society. 6/

    They only care about our laws and customs when they help them. They do not believe in the Constitution or any founding principles unless they’re advantageous. 7/

    When those principles and customs are used to progress things, they reject them wholly and fall back on authoritarian ideals and fascist behavior. 8/

    They’ve always been here. They’ve been slaveholders. They’ve been confederates. They’ve been our neighbors. They’ve been our family. 9/

    Republicans fostered them as a means to push their policies and leveraged their worst instincts. Now, they’ve lost hold of the leash and have been taken over from the inside. 10/

  63. 63
    Brachiator says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Is the idea for doing tax reform before the end of the year to have it apply to the 2017 tax year, or are they just rushing it so it takes up as little time as possible in the media?

    The GOP wants to give Trump a victory. They are desperate. They also need to please their masters, the American oligarchy.

    Almost everything in the bill would not take effect until 2018.

    But yeah, they are trying to do as much as they can in secret, in the dark, and without media scrutiny.

    But they also understand that Trump has been good for them. The base actually believe that they are getting tax cuts. Also economics and taxes are hard, and people just don’t want to think about it.

    Many media stories have been honest about the bill. It screws over the poor and the middle class and gives the wealthy huge tax breaks. Hell, I ran across a couple of good online tax calculators where people could plug in 2016 numbers and get a good estimate of the impact of the proposed law on their taxes. But then again, I knew what I was looking for in terms of information.

    The GOP tax plan, by any measure, is ideology masquerading as economics.

  64. 64

    @Brachiator: And economics* is greed masquerading as an intellectual discipline.

    (Of the doctrinaire Milton Friedman variety)

  65. 65
    🌎 🇺🇸 Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) 🗳 🌷 says:

    @rikyrah:
    This, basically.

  66. 66
    Duane says:

    @FlipYrWhig: “Get your scorecards here! Can’t tell the players without a scorecard!”

  67. 67
    Corner Stone says:

    @magurakurin: This is foolish. They would have waited about a nanosecond before they came after Gore. “What did he know? And when did he know it? What was his part in this sex sleaze coverup? Did he get full body massages after he called the Chinese for fundraising from the Oval Office?”
    Nothing would ever have satiated them. That is what they have proven from their first taste of modern power in the ’90s to now. There is nothing, *NOTHING* anyone can do to get them to settle down and be reasonable.
    They fight to fuck you up and fuck up everything and everyone you care about. There is no middle ground we could advance/retreat to.

  68. 68

    @bmoak: the hack gap strikes again!

  69. 69
    Emma says:

    @magurakurin: I think one of us was in the Spock-with-the-goatee universe during those years. They weren’t going to stop until they decapitated the Democratic party. It was Clinton refusing to act the Republican script that saved it.

  70. 70
    Brachiator says:

    @Suzanne:

    The biggest problem that I have with this impulse to fire, fire, fire everyone is that the list of men who either harassed a woman or who turned a blind eye for the sake of career expediency is a pretty long fucking list.

    I don’t think that every case of sexual harassment is a capital offense meriting firing or a resignation.

    And in any case, Trump should resign before anybody else. And his new claim that the video of him bragging about grabbing women was faked? Pathetic.

  71. 71

    @Emma: Since when is preemptive surrender a winning strategy?

  72. 72
    magurakurin says:

    @Corner Stone: maybe. maybe not. Two years is a long time. One thing that is for sure, though, Clinton shouldn’t have lied under oath. That’s what fucked him. He should have just gone full Jimmy Swaggart, admit to his weakness and beg forgiveness. Lot’s of things could have been done differently. The whole thing was a bogus witch hunt, but Clinton did get the blow job and he did lie under oath. He isn’t completly innocent in his part in it. Gore almost certainly was. Sure, they would have gone after him, but they wouldn’t have found out that he got a blow job that he lied about it.

    whatever. What’s done is done.

    I mostly blame Nader for Bush, anyway.

  73. 73
    Emma says:

    @schrodingers_cat: That’s what I keep asking people!

  74. 74
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @magurakurin: Why the fuck are we talking about Bill Clinton?

  75. 75
    Corner Stone says:

    @rikyrah: Republicans haven’t had a political ideology in 30 years. They have always been hateful shits but there was a cohesiveness to it. Starting about Gingrich that was all lip service. Whatever was expedient was the outcome they wanted. They used power to achieve more power, not policy goals.
    This is a fucking war, not a knuckle and skull fistfight.

  76. 76
    eemom says:

    @magurakurin:

    Even if, in hindsight, that WERE true, it doesn’t justify raising it as a topic of public debate 20 years later when a maniac is in the oval office and pure evil controls every branch of government. That is just FUCKED.

    I also agree with whoever said that Pelosi should be talking about the fucking tax nightmare, not Conyers.

  77. 77
    Brachiator says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Deepika Padukone (who plays Padmavati) was supposed to be at that junket Modi is hosting for Ivanka, has decided not to go.

    Good for her!

    But it’s too bad that the whole thing may be somewhat spoiled by the political overtones.

  78. 78

    @Brachiator: alright, I knew all that, I guess I was wondering whether Xmas was an artificial deadline or had fiscal significance.

  79. 79

    @Corner Stone: But many of our allies think its a pillow fight. And if they surrender, voters will reward them for their purity.

  80. 80
    magurakurin says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: why not? It’s a comment string that says “open thread.” Anyway, I’m done. What’s done is done. It was a horrible chapter that has been followed by even more horrible ones.

  81. 81

    @Brachiator: Which thing, the movie or the junket?

  82. 82
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @magurakurin:

    why not? It’s a comment string that says “open thread.”

    How clever.

  83. 83
    Suzanne says:

    @Corner Stone:

    There is nothing, *NOTHING* anyone can do to get them to settle down and be reasonable.
    They fight to fuck you up and fuck up everything and everyone you care about. There is no middle ground we could advance/retreat to.

    Preach.
    All that matters, in the political arena, is that winners make policy and losers go home. Fuck capitulating to these terrorists.

  84. 84
    magurakurin says:

    @eemom: I wasn’t happy with Gillibrand’s comment either. And Yglesias doesn’t matter so much, I reckon how many people really read him?. And speculating here doesn’t mean shit. It’s just banter.

  85. 85

    @Omnes Omnibus: Because letting Rs walk all over us for the sake of moral purity is of greatest importance. I mean so what if Haitians lose their protected status, who cares. FCC gets rids of net neutrality and so on.

  86. 86
    Brachiator says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    Which thing, the movie or the junket?

    Both.

  87. 87
    Suzanne says:

    @Brachiator: Agreed.
    I am uncivil enough that I think we need to take care to remember everyone who know who voted for this shitshow and, if the republic survives, do everything we can to suppress their votes. If that doesn’t work, I lean toward economic marginalization—i.e. Trump fans never get another job.

  88. 88
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @tobie: Puritans–400 years later we are still dealing with those assholes

  89. 89
    tobie says:

    @rikyrah: that was the most sobering thread I’ve read in a long time.

  90. 90
    Brachiator says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    alright, I knew all that, I guess I was wondering whether Xmas was an artificial deadline or had fiscal significance.

    Semi total artificial deadline.

    I think that Congress is set to recess around December 18. They don’t want to hang around until Xmas Eve.

    There are a couple of tax issues that they must address, the so-called Extenders. But again, they could wait until 2018 and make things retroactive.

    Bottom line, anything they try to do quickly is entirely for political show.

  91. 91
    Mary G says:

    Time Inc. has just sold itself to Meredith, who publish Family Circle and other obscure women’s magazines, with the money provided by the Koch Brothers. They say that the Kochs will not have a seat on Meredith’s board and will not interfere with editorial content, but if you believe that I have a bridge to sell you.

    They are really going all out on an assault on our democracy. If they retract net neutrality, allow Sinclair to buy up the Tribune Co., and now this there will be a lot more right wing megaphones. I know nobody reads Time anymore, but they probably still have some credibility with the rubes. I am scared and resolved to fight harder.

  92. 92
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL: The actual Puritans turned into UCCers and Unitarians – Liberal new England. It is the Baptists and their mutations who became the problem.

  93. 93
    raven says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: The 10 suggestions.

  94. 94
    Sab says:

    @Suzanne: A lot of these deplorable assholes put up yardsign in my neighborhood. Normally after elections I forget and move on. Not so this last election. I have neighbors I will never speak to again. Major moral effort for me to clean up my dogs crap on their treelawn.

  95. 95
    Brachiator says:

    @Mary G:

    Time Inc. has just sold itself to Meredith, who publish Family Circle and other obscure women’s magazines, with the money provided by the Koch Brothers.

    Interesting. I hope it turns out that the Koch Brothers have wasted their money.

    I don’t think that Time has much value as a brand anymore. And sadly, almost all physical magazines are dying. I would be surprised to find that the new regime has any talent rebuilding Time as a good online publication.

    On the other hand, under the new ownership expect to see Trump as Man of the Year every year.

  96. 96
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @eemom:

    Yglesias is insufferable, as is everyone else jumping on that moronic “Clinton should have resigned” shitwagon. Including Kirsten Gillibrand: WTF??

    I am so done — so very VERY done — with these pious, traitorous assholes. Don’t know what they’re trying to prove and don’t care. Just want them to STFU and die.

    Yup. And thus Gillibrand has removed herself from consideration in 2020.

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    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: in that case, I revise my criticism of the Puritans to reflect that it is their perceived heritage which is the problem, even though their actual heritage may not be so bad.

    So who were the religious nuts who came to the New World because they were such judgmental, rightwing assholes that the Old World didn’t want them?

  100. 100
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Mary G: I was cautiously optimistic about Time, traditionally a Republican publication, as the new editor cut his teeth writing for my high school newspaper and was a sharp guy. Go Owls!

  101. 101
    raven says:

    @Steve in the ATL: KSU?

    eta, oops, high school

  102. 102
    Lyrebird says:

    @Mnemosyne: Yep, the timing is odd. I put a complaint about that McClatchy headline (something like Franken forcing Dems to finally [sic] confront….) but nary a response or change in the headline.

    If we really get to Mueller time, I hope Roger Stone is exposed for whatever he’s done.

  103. 103
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    So who were the religious nuts who came to the New World because they were such judgmental, rightwing assholes that the Old World didn’t want them?

    The Puritans. The thing is, they believed in education and, thus, they got better. One also has to remember that, in the early 17th Century, no one was religiously tolerant.

    @raven: That is awesome.

  104. 104

    @Omnes Omnibus

    : One also has to remember that, in the early 17th Century, no one was religiously tolerant.

    That’s a very eurocentric view of the world.

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    Lyrebird says:

    @Steve in the ATL:

    So who were the religious nuts who came to the New World because they were such judgmental, rightwing assholes that the Old World didn’t want them?

    Well that is the Puritans, but in other ways they wore out their welcome for being in modern terms such leftwing a-__les. Their manner of living was communal enough that Joe McCarthy woulda had conniptions just thinking about it. They were very rigid and intolerant (thus us getting Rhode Island as a separate state), they had strong community support for people who conformed, they essentially promoted trial marriage (see “bundling board” etc), they were complicated. And yes they gave us the UCC and other progressive Congregationalists.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @schrodingers_cat: Okay. Fair point. Nevertheless, as it applies to US history, it is accurate.

  107. 107
    Lyrebird says:

    @schrodingers_cat:

    That’s a very eurocentric view of the world.

    And/or a Quaker-less view of the world, but stated much more concisely than my slower reply along similar lines.

  108. 108
    Lyrebird says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Read my nit above only if you wish, since the counterexample is pretty small compared to the abundance of supporting examples.

  109. 109
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Lyrebird: Quakers were not early 17th Century. I used the word early on purpose.

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    Steve in the ATL says:

    @raven: Memphis University School! I’m not sure if KSU even existed then.

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    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: where were you this morning? I had to correct a poster’s French grammar all by myself–quelle horreur!

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Steve in the ATL: I didn’t get back to Madison until late afternoon. I am sorry you had to deal with that on your own.

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    raven says:

    @Lyrebird: I was surprised when I got this certificate for serving in a RI National Guard Unit in Vietnam. I never knew it wa she State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantation!

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    Lyrebird says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Sorry, I misidentified Roger Williams in the Quaker basket… I would consider 1630s in the time period.

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    Lyrebird says:

    @raven: Yeah, funny – I only found out about the name last year, despite have spent some time in New England, because some relative got a bee in the bonnet about why a state might be named for something that doesn’t exist.

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    raven says:

    @Lyrebird: The wiki says there was a statewide vote to keep it.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Lyrebird: Arguable about when Quakerism really began. I won’t fight about it. That small minority did preach tolerance in Europe and, subsequently, in the colonies. They also opposed more than basic education as unnecessary and had some issues about sex. Shit is complicated.

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    MomSense says:

    Changing the subject a bit and wondering if anyone has watched the documentary Icarus on Netflix. It deals with the Russian doping program and Is chilling.

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    JR says:

    @schrodingers_cat: was there religious tolerance elsewhere? certainly not in central asia or during the collapse of ming china, right?

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    Mike in NC says:

    @MomSense: Thanks for the heads-up. Will look for it on Netflix.

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    TenguPhule says:

    Another week where we talk about how ratfucked Democrats must commit suicide to please Republicans while the Republicans work tirelessly to kill us all.

    #metoo is officially fucked. Too many Republican women with agendas are going to keep poisoning the well and set back standards for their gender to the 1800s.

    No we can’t afford to believe all the women. The Republican supporting ones lie unless proven otherwise.

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @TenguPhule: Keep reading.

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    TenguPhule says:

    @Brachiator:

    while Trump charities look pretty damn shady.

    There are black holes with more transparency.

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    Lyrebird says:

    @Omnes Omnibus:

    Arguable about when Quakerism really began.

    Thanks… Yes a tiny minority, and it’s not like the centuries preceding the 17th had much evidence of religious tolerance in Europe. Had to explain to a friend of mine that western European Christians had pogroms so to speak against other Christians (Protestants vs Catholics, both directions) as well as against Jews and Muslims. Sigh.

    History! Sad!

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    Peale says:

    I agree. People are tired of Democrats protecting each other and would prefer for them to bow down before big daddy Republicans.

  127. 127
    TenguPhule says:

    @Major Major Major Major:

    Is the idea for doing tax reform before the end of the year to have it apply to the 2017 tax year, or are they just rushing it so it takes up as little time as possible in the media?

    yes.

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    TenguPhule says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Well it looks much improved from last week. I was afraid it was going to turn into another circular self flagellation.

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    divF says:

    @Omnes Omnibus: Jon Carroll was one of the only reasons to read the San Francisco Chronicle. When he retired in 2015, it was all over.

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    Steve in the ATL says:

    @TenguPhule: no, Trentrunner gets shut down tout de suite now

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    Brachiator says:

    @TenguPhule:

    Is the idea for doing tax reform before the end of the year to have it apply to the 2017 tax year, or are they just rushing it so it takes up as little time as possible in the media?

    yes.

    “Yes” only applies to the second part of the question. Neither the House nor Senate tax bills would be effective for 2017 (except for some provisions related to depreciation).

  132. 132
    Lyrebird says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Yeah, the Big Dog has some things to apologize for in my book, like for abandoning his bolder nominees, and not telling the grand jury or whoever (sorry for wrong technical language) that naughties between consenting adults are none of their effing business. Resign???? Gahh!!!

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    Exurban Mom says:

    Holy crap. Time Inc. was just bought by the Koch Brothers. <a href="http://https://mobile.nytimes......google.com

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    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @Lyrebird: The thing is, I firmly believe that he would have won again if allowed to be a candidate in 2000.

  135. 135
    Brachiator says:

    @divF:

    Jon Carroll was one of the only reasons to read the San Francisco Chronicle. When he retired in 2015, it was all over.

    Was it the Chronicle that had the funny graphic to summarize movie reviews? A guy clapping wildly to indicate a rave, and a guy asleep in his chair to indicate a dud.

    Never looked at anything other than the arts sections of San Francisco newspapers. We’re there any good newspapers serving the city?

  136. 136
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @divF:

    I wouldn’t have thought it possible but it has actually gotten worse since then.

    Very little actual local reporting anymore. And their digital site is as click-bait driven as Buzz Feed. There was an interesting headline that I clicked on last week, read the article and noticed some old information and then saw that the story was originally posted in 2015. Right on the digital front page.

  137. 137
    AnotherBruce says:

    @magurakurin: Yes, he shouldn’t have lied, He should have straight up told them that it was none of their fucking business and walked away from that bullshit inquisition. So yes he lied under oath, but really, the American people saw through that crap. Bill Clinton was one of the greatest and most popular presidents we have ever had. And I’ll say one more thing, fuck Puritanism, it’s a miserable set of “ethics”. It sucks all the joy out of life. And I’m sorry to see our nation once again falling into it’s trap.

  138. 138
    Raoul says:

    @Steve in the ATL: Perhaps already asked upthread, but: There is a difference between “libertarian” and “fucking idiot”?

  139. 139
    divF says:

    @Brachiator: Yes that’s the Chronicle. The worst review it can give to a movie is an empty chair.

    In my opinion, the Chron has had good reporting on education, science (David Perlman, a gem of a science reporter/editor, retired in August at the age of 98), and sports. Other than that, pretty meh.

  140. 140

    @magurakurin: @AnotherBruce: Not a lawyer here, so people can correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that Clinton technically didn’t lie. Instead, so I understand, Starr phrased the question so that anything except full-blown PIV sex was excluded from consideration as “sexual relations”, and so Clinton’s answer was technically correct (the best kind of correct!). Of course, all this context got thrown down the memory hole and everyone only remembers the answer.

    In retrospect, it was probably pretty dumb of Clinton not to see the ratfucking coming. On the other hand, I don’t think anyone, twenty years ago, could have foreseen just how thoroughly dishonest the GOP would get.

  141. 141
    Origuy says:

    @divF: Remember the scene in All the President’s Men when a syndicate rep tries to sell a feature of yesterday’s horoscope, for people who stayed in bed all day? Ben Bradlee tells him, “Go sell it to the San Francisco Chronicle, they’ll run anything!”

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    Bobby Thomson says:

    @Anne Laurie: this. Fuck that guy.

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    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    So has anyone learned the lesson; making Franken resign will be denounced as not enough by conservatives and vindication for their unconditional support for their own leaders. Read the conservatives quotes up there., they control the government and yet see themselves as the underdog outsiders fighting the system.

    Star Wars had it wrong, Papletine and Vader should have been babbling about Lieha incestuous relationship with Luke and how Vader was the real victim,

  144. 144
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    Star Wars got it wrong; Palpatine and Vader should have been babbling on about how Leighia relationship with Luke showed the whole rebellion was morally corrupt, Vader was just the victim of his awful wife and the system was rigged against the Empire. I mean heck Hitler was did the same thing.

  145. 145
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @(((CassandraLeo))):

    Not a lawyer here, so people can correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s my understanding that Clinton technically didn’t lie. Instead, so I understand, Starr phrased the question so that anything except full-blown PIV sex was excluded from consideration as “sexual relations”, and so Clinton’s answer was technically correct (the best kind of correct!). Of course, all this context got thrown down the memory hole and everyone only remembers the answer.

    In retrospect, it was probably pretty dumb of Clinton not to see the ratfucking coming. On the other hand, I don’t think anyone, twenty years ago, could have foreseen just how thoroughly dishonest the GOP would get.

    Correct on all counts. Maybe we should make you an honorary lawyer like efgoldman and Roger Moore.

  146. 146
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Raoul:

    Perhaps already asked upthread, but: There is a difference between “libertarian” and “fucking idiot”?

    Valid point. The most charitable response would be “diminished mental capacity”.

  147. 147

    @JR: In India. India’s greatest rulers from Chandragupta and Ashoka, to Akbar, Shivaji and Nehru India have practiced and preached religious tolerance.
    Hindustani classical music is an amalgam of Indo-Islamic culture that flowered in northern and central India over centuries. Yes, there have been intolerant bigots who ruled too, like the ones currently in power but if you look at the vast span of Indian history they were more the exception than the rule.
    ETA: Sufi saints like Kabir (Muslim) composed poems of both Ram and Rahim, Ishwar and Allah, their poetry still lives on. Hindus would pray (and still do) in the many shrines of Sufi saints. I could go on.

  148. 148
    TenguPhule says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques:

    Star Wars had it wrong, Papletine and Vader should have been babbling about Lieha incestuous relationship with Luke and how Vader was the real victim,

    This is apparently the direction Disney’s reboot has decided to go in.

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