Open Thread: What Kayla Moore “Knew”

It is not, so I’ve read, uncommon for men with socially-unsanctioned sexual urges, once they approach forty, to “settle down” with a wife… who may, or may not, be aware of her spouse’s proclivities. Of course the hormones are less urgent as one ages, but just as importantly, an older man has much more to lose if his undercover activities are exposed; his credentials, his career, his network of social contacts become more valuable than the young man’s fantasy of escaping to a fresh start and a new identity. Frequently such men — such couples — become dependent, even to a cult-like degree, upon a rigid religious or ethical text that will “protect” them from the vile temptations of our sinful world. Roy Moore seems to have been a “social Christian” before his marriage; his determination to drag the rest of us into his interpretation of “Bible-based law” came with his… maturity.

Did Kayla Kisor know about her prospective husband’s dubious habits, back in 1985? She was in the same class as the woman who Roy called out of trig class to ask on a date. And she was sufficiently aware of possible embarrassment that she claimed they met at Bible study — when in reality, Roy would say that he first noticed her when she was 17 and performing at a junior college dance recital.

But what she knows now, for certain sure, is that she’s put 32 years into a fruitful working relationship, and suddenly it’s all coming undone, because Godless liberals:

“He has never one time lifted a finger to me. He is the most gentle, most kind man that I have ever known in my life. He’s godly. He’s loving — and everybody in this community knows it,” Kayla Moore, 56, said, looking around at the people gathered that night. “These are our church members, these are our family, these are our friends, these are people that know him just like I do.”

Over the past week, as several women have come forward to publicly accuse Roy Moore, 70, of pursuing them when they were teenagers and he was in his 30s, Kayla Moore has become her husband’s most visible and aggressive defender. In addition to her defense on Monday night, she has used Facebook to question the credibility of her husband’s accusers, threaten lawsuits and spread information that sometimes turns out to be false…

Friends describe Kayla Moore as a deeply religious wife, mother and grandmother who has devoted her life to her family and gushes lovingly about her four children and five grandchildren. She served on the board of her husband’s Foundation for Moral Law, which he founded to promote Christian values, and then took over the nonprofit as president in January 2013, when Roy Moore was elected to a second term on the state Supreme Court.

For years, Moore has helped coordinate her husband’s political campaigns. In his race for the Senate this year, the two have traveled nearly everywhere together — with him often at the wheel as she navigates…

The FML also paid Kayla Moore a total of $195,000 over three years through 2015″, on top of Roy’s “salary of $180,000 a year for part-time work.” (And of course when she’s right by his side, it’s that much easier to be sure ol’ Roy doesn’t let his eyes or his hands wander.)

… Upon learning that Washington Post reporters were contacting people she knows for this article, Moore on Wednesday posted one of the reporters’ personal cellphone numbers on her Facebook page, and a commenter posted a copy of that reporter’s résumé, which included her home address. Later in the day, Moore posted a link to the campaign website where people can now report any interaction they have with a reporter.

“In the past month our hometown, county, and state have been invaded by the Washington Post and liberal media,” Moore wrote. “We have had numerous reports of phone calls, cellphone calls, Messages, emails, even to the point of them showing up at peoples houses . . . It’s called a witch hunt. We are filing suit.”…

As someone who’s been involved with the same guy for 40 years, I can understand Mrs. Moore’s quite genuine anger. Love and respect are important, but any relationship that long-standing is also going to involve some vulgar transactionalism as well, if only in the ‘two can live as cheaply as one’ sense. Win or lose — and there’s a lot to lose — this is almost certainly Roy’s last rodeo. Kayla, on the other hand, is too old to start over and too young for Social Security. Just when she should (finally!) be able to relax and enjoy the grandkids and her role among the ladies of her worship group, all this ugliness gets dragged up… and by people who aren’t even (the right kind of) Christians. I don’t sympathize, mind you — but I understand.

(Drew Sheneman via GoComics.com)
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239 replies
  1. 1
    rikyrah says:

    Good Morning, Everyone 😄😄😄

  2. 2
    Baud says:

    @rikyrah: Good morning.

  3. 3
    Baud says:

    I’m not really interested in spouses. Maybe I’m sensitive because I saw how Hillary was forced to pay for the sins of her husband.

  4. 4
    Lapassionara says:

    Good morning, juicers.

  5. 5
    Betty says:

    Hi everyone. This is Betty checking in from Dominica after two months of post Hurricane Maria isolation. I am in the US taking a break from the total devastation which is only very slowly being addressed. Electricity has only been restored to 3 percent of customers. It has been strange being so disconnected, and I am trying to understand what I missed. Our house was spared direct damage, but our road was blocked for 4 weeks and we had a massive landslide next to the house. Some difficult days for sure.

  6. 6
    Lapassionara says:

    @Baud: I’m interested in her work for the foundation.

  7. 7
    JPL says:

    @Betty: Thank you so much for checking in. You were missed.

    Trump is still president and he is still causing havoc!

  8. 8
    Baud says:

    @Betty: I’m happy you are safe.

  9. 9
    Lapassionara says:

    @Betty: Thanks for checking in. People have been asking for you.

  10. 10

    Oh my goodness, Betty. We’ve wondered how you were doing. I had not idea things were still so bad there. The news here seems to have forgotten about Puerto Rico, much less anyplace else.

    How are you?

  11. 11
    Baud says:

    @Lapassionara: That’s fair game.

  12. 12
    Quinerly says:

    @rikyrah: @Baud: good morning from Poco and and his tribe!

  13. 13
    Quinerly says:

    @Betty: so glad that you checked in. glad that you are safe.

  14. 14
    HeleninEire says:

    @Betty: So glad you’re safe.

  15. 15
    Immanentize says:

    Happy Saturday, All. And
    @Betty: I am glad you are safe. I am also glad you are getting a little state-side break. I hope can relax some while here….

  16. 16
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: My sins were washed away when I married my (2nd) wife. She “tamed” me.

  17. 17
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Betty: Good to hear you are still hanging in there.

  18. 18
    WereBear says:

    @Betty: I wish things were better, in all ways. Glad to hear you are managing.

  19. 19
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: You married Lady Jesus?

  20. 20
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: The next best thing and with out the religious aura.

  21. 21
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Can she turn water into moonshine at least? That would be useful where you are.

  22. 22
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: She turned me into a human being (according to my sons). Isn’t that enough?

  23. 23
    Betty says:

    @JPL: Yes, word had reached us that Trump was still acting out. I had hoped the investigation would have gotten further along. The motto for us in Dominica also works here- one day at a time. I will definitely be relaxing with family and enjoying the luxury of fresh food and a hot shower for the next few weeks. Thanks to all for your good wishes.

  24. 24
    Baud says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’d prefer the shine. But it’s all good.

  25. 25
    chris says:

    @Betty: Good to hear from you. The news from Dominica was very bad and doesn’t seem to be getting better.

    Anne Laurie: FML? Hahaha! They don’t use the google, do they?

    http://www.fmylife.com/

  26. 26
    Steeplejack says:

    @rikyrah:

    Good morning!

    Man, I just looked at the emojis available on this tablet. Way more than on my aging phone.

  27. 27
    Colleeniem says:

    @Betty: I’m just a lurker but I’m so happy you checked in!

  28. 28
    MomSense says:

    @Betty:

    So relieved you are ok. I can’t imagine what you are going through after Maria.

  29. 29
    Peej01 says:

    Kinda makes you wonder what skeletons are lurking in Mike Pence’s closet.

  30. 30
    Steeplejack says:

    @Betty:

    So good to hear from you! Everybody had been wondering how you were doing.

  31. 31
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: So would all my old friends. I’m just not any fun any more.

  32. 32
    Sloane Ranger says:

    @Betty: Pleased to hear from you. We were worried.

  33. 33
    danielx says:

    @rikyrah:

    Good morning.

  34. 34
    Luigidaman says:

    Kayla Moore knows her husband is a pedophile. You don’t live with someone for forty years and not know all of their sexual preferences. This pervert probably still cruises high schools and malls to get his kicks.

  35. 35
    LurkerNoLonger says:

    This charity sounds shady as shit. I hope more comes out about it before the election. Moore can go fuck himself, but he’s not 14 so he probably won’t.

  36. 36
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Luigidaman: I have found that people are very good at not seeing the obvious when it clashes with what they want their world to be.

  37. 37
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @LurkerNoLonger:

    Moore can go fuck himself, but he’s not 14 so he probably won’t.

    It’s over. The internets have been won for the day.

  38. 38
    WereBear says:

    For those keeping score at home, that is $735,000 in just 3 years.

    Which would buy a lot of “religious” fervor!

  39. 39
    WereBear says:

    @Luigidaman: Roy Moore has four children and five grandchildren.

  40. 40
    debbie says:

    @Betty:

    Glad you’re safe and that that landslide didn’t get any closer to you.

  41. 41
    bemused says:

    I just showed the photo of kitty Bubby from cat rescue thread yesterday to my spouse and our female kitty who could be a twin to Bubby. Our kitty who enjoys watching other kitties on tv and internet stared and stared at Bubby. She was very intrigued.

  42. 42
    GregB says:

    For purported evangelical Christians, they seem very reluctant to embrace Judgement Day.

  43. 43
    JeanneT says:

    On Weds. I wrote that I was taking my dog Raleigh to his oncologist. His lab reports are finally in and his blood work all looks good this round; no obvious signal of cancer recurrence, thank dog. Now we wait for the imaging reports, which should be in by Tuesday. Raleigh himself seems to be full of energy and feeling very good, which makes me feel better about all the costs.

    NOW I’ve got to sign up my other 10 year old dog (small terrier mix) for health insurance while she’s still got a clean bill of health. My third dog, a big lab-poodle cross, has had insurance since the first week I adopted him, because I anticipated orthopedic issues in his future. I had never thought about the likelihood of cancer treatments for any of them. Now I know better!

  44. 44
    Eric U. says:

    The way Roy Moore approached pedophilia, he may well have stopped after he got married. Although I wouldn’t be surprised to hear from someone that was his victim after he got married. Was he involved in church activities for teenagers, for example.

    One thing growing up in an area with a batch of old-timey evangelical Christians taught me was they have a finely honed skill in taking justification from the bible for some really horrible things.

  45. 45
    ThresherK says:

    @Betty: While you were away, the crazee ran out nothing changed.

  46. 46
  47. 47
    germy says:

    this is almost certainly Roy’s last rodeo. Kayla, on the other hand, is too old to start over and too young for Social Security. Just when she should (finally!) be able to relax and enjoy the grandkids and her role among the ladies of her worship group, all this ugliness gets dragged up… and by people who aren’t even (the right kind of) Christians. I don’t sympathize, mind you — but I understand.

    This is why I enjoy reading Anne Laurie. One of my favorite front pagers. I still remember the essay she wrote about Jane Sanders; about her stubbornness and world view being framed by her upbringing. Gives me such a better understanding of what motivates these famous people.

  48. 48
    Emma says:

    @Betty: thank goodness. I hope you and your family are all well. I wish you were coming back to a functioning country, though. Still if you have a taste for Gothic horror, you will get your fill.

  49. 49
    Baud says:

    @Emma: Gargoyles would be a fitting addition to this White House.

  50. 50
    zhena gogolia says:

    @Betty:

    I’m so happy to hear from you! I can’t imagine what you’ve been through.

  51. 51
    Betty Cracker says:

    @Betty: Fellow Betty! We thought of you every time we saw reports of the awful destruction in Dominica. It must have been a terrifying experience. Glad you are safe and your house made it through.

  52. 52
    zhena gogolia says:

    Here’s how bad my conspiracy theories are getting: in the middle of the night I concocted a scenario that the NYT, instigated by Putin, blew up the whole Weinstein thing so excessively in order to start this panic so that Franken could be ensnared in it just in time to neutralize his pursuit of Sessions and the opposition to the tax bill.

  53. 53
    Betty Cracker says:

    I went to high school in a small town. If K. Moore and the girl who was called out of trig class by the child-molesting creep were in the same class, K. Moore definitely heard about it.

  54. 54
    D58826 says:

    there was a tweet this am that the democrats have to stop being held hostage by the Clintons. Now not defending every thing the Clintons have or have not done but a brief walk down memory lane
    1. Bill won the presidency after it looked like the GOP had a lock on the office
    2. eight years of relative peace and lots of prosperity. Last time wages actually increased IIRC
    3. his VP Gore had the election stolen by SCOTUS and Jeb Bush in 2000
    4. Hillary was a good senator for NY for 8 years
    5. and a good SofS for 4
    6. she won more votes in 2016 than any male democrat and beat Trump by 3 million votes
    7. She lost in the EC because of some shady voter suppression (WI) and possible Russian hacking in WI/MI/PA.

    As for revisiting Clinton’s sex history and banning him from polite company this article goes into all of the sordid details of the Starr inquisition. In short if Starr had even the barest chance of proving rape he would have.

    Joe Conason
    A ‘Reckoning’ For Bill Clinton? Don’t Forget Starr’s $70 Million Probe

    It’s true that Conason has been a defend of Clinton’s for years but much of what the article covers I remember reading in the WAPO/NYT/etc.

    And if we are going to read Clinton out of history lets not forget Clarence Thomas, and glad handing Bush 41. Saint Ronuluis the Unready was quite the man about town with the young starlets in the late 40’s and early 50’s. He had to marry Nancy. MAybe we should poke into his history as well.

    http://www.nationalmemo.com/re.....ion-probe/

  55. 55
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Betty Cracker: Even if they weren’t in the same class.

  56. 56
    Le Comte de Monte Cristo, fka Edmund Dantes says:

    @D58826:

    I heard that slobbering moron Matthews yammering about Bill last night. I struggled to avoid driving to New York for the express purpose of curb stomping him until he lost the capacity to breathe.

  57. 57
    tjmn says:

    Yet another chapter of the continuing evangelical saga of “As the Worm Turns.”
    Journalists will start dying here in the US now that their names, addresses and phone numbers are given to the rabid evangelical base.
    FFS!

  58. 58
    Baud says:

    @D58826: Once again we are caught between our goal of not being distracted and our desire not to cede ground to the detractors. The people who want to use current events to turn the conversation to Bill Clinton are demonstrating their privilege and malice towards women. There is absolutely no difference between this behavior and Trump’s attempts to deflect criticism by focusing on Hillary. We should have equal contempt for both.

  59. 59
    BellyCat says:

    Note that Jerry Sandusky’s wife also still maintains his complete innocence.

  60. 60
    GregB says:

    @D58826:

    The Democrats and the left have to pay for their sins forever in an endless loop of attacks, shames and mea-culpas.

    The Republicans and the right are given instant absolution for their sins and their mistakes are erased moments after they occur.

    Let’s discuss the vastness of the Dennis Hastert memory-hole. The largest ever.

  61. 61
    lamh36 says:

    @D58826: bet…every last one of the elected officials, like Gillobrand, will be perfectly happy using Bill C to fundraise for them in 2020…so i’m rolling my eyes really hard at all of them

  62. 62
    frosty says:

    @Betty: Good to hear from you.

  63. 63
    WereBear says:

    @GregB: Let’s discuss the vastness of the Dennis Hastert memory-hole. The largest ever.

    Though far from the only one. The skeletons in Republican closets are a vast army because all that denial lets the crimes build up and up and up…

  64. 64
    lamh36 says:

    ‪As We Rethink Old Harassers, Let’s Talk About Clarence Thomas
    Joy Ann Reid
    https://www.thedailybeast.com/as-we-rethink-old-harassers-lets-talk-about-clarence-thomas‬

  65. 65
    Betty Cracker says:

    @D58826: Bill Clinton is a sleazy horn-dog, or was, at least. Voted for the man twice, but I knew what he was. What bugs me is the rush to conflate Bill Clinton’s shitty behavior from 20 years ago into “the Clintons” should go away.

    I know it’s the fondest wish of many a Bernie cultist and assorted other Hillary haters to use Bill Clinton’s sins to erase the first woman to win a major party nomination (who was subsequently cheated out of a presidency). Like it or not, assholes, Hillary Clinton means something to many of us. She’s legitimately a senior party stateswoman, so get the fuck over it.

  66. 66
    D58826 says:

    And to be clear the time and today I don’t think he should have resigned for several reasons. Even in 1997-1998 it was obvious there was a RW effort to reverse the election. Bill wasn’t the first POTUS to have an extra-marital affair both before and after he was elected. It was common knowledge that FDR’s mistress got off the back of the train while he got off the front. The press just looked the other way. Same with JFK. The voters knew about Flowers in 1992 and Jones in 1996 yet voted for him anyway. I think we have to think long and hard before reversing the results of an election, esp. when it involves personal/non-official conduct. By the end of the impeachment trial his popularity was close to 70% and large majorities said they wanted the whole thing ended and to let Clinton get back to being president.
    Saint Ronulus the Unready and Iran/Contra was a much more serious scandal and involved offical WH actions. The same GOOPERS who were horrified by a consensual BJ in 1998 had no problem with covering up what happened during Iran/Conttra. I never could figure out why the D’s rolled over, unless they didn’t want to impeach a second GOP president and one who was very popular at that.

  67. 67
    The Lodger says:

    @Baud: You’re talking about the White House. The gargoyles have always been on the inside.

  68. 68
    BellyCat says:

    @lamh36: Truth…

    One can dream that Thomas would (be forced to) resign.

  69. 69
    D58826 says:

    @Betty Cracker: If we took down the paintings of every POTUS hanging in the hall of the presidents for being sleezy (horndog or other wise) there would a lot of bare wall to look at.

    I really wish we were voting for leaders with the sanctity of Jesus but we are not. So sometimes it gets down to relative sleezyness vs important policy goals. I don’t like it but there is a lot about the real world that I don’t much like.

  70. 70
    Barbara says:

    The sense of entitlement irrespective of wrongdoing to others defines “Christians” like the Moores. So convinced they are that God has washed their sins clean that they even think their shit doesn’t stink. Mere humans are not allowed to hold them accountable, but especially dark colored and liberal humans. Even more so than many other humans Kayla Moore has the option of being better than she needs to be given whatever situation she faces. She is failing at every opportunity. She doesn’t have to worry about the future, because, like the lilies in the field, the rain will fall and the sun will shine, and someone will bail her out financially if it comes to that. No, she chooses to worship her pervert husband instead of her perfect savior.

  71. 71
    Felonius Monk says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    She’s legitimately a senior party stateswoman, so get the fuck over it.

    AMEN!

  72. 72
    Emma says:

    @Betty Cracker: I’m so glad you ranted. Now I can just co-sign instead of launching into my own phillipic.
    There’s a subset of white male liberals (and their female acolytes) who seem to think Democratic women and POCs are best seen and not heard. F-ck that noise.

  73. 73
    Brendan in NC says:

    @zhena gogolia: as someone who despises conspiracy theories-that one actually sounds plausible

  74. 74
    David 🎅🎄Merry Christmas🎄🎅 Koch says:

    nice crisp, sunny morning.

    we got some early brunch action going for AM Joy, followed by the Michigan vs Wisconsin game.

    WoooHooo!

  75. 75
    msdc says:

    his credentials, his career, his network of social contacts become more valuable than the young man’s fantasy of escaping to a fresh start and a new identity.

    You mean like running off to Australia?

    Frequently such men — such couples — become dependent, even to a cult-like degree, upon a rigid religious or ethical text that will “protect” them from the vile temptations of our sinful world.

    So what you’re saying is, Pence is next.

  76. 76
    D58826 says:

    In the meantime Der Fuhrer and his co-horts are stealing the country blind, reversing 100+ years of progressive legislation and putting people on the federal bench who would have supported the Dred Scott decision and Plessy vs Ferguson, in addition to any other pro business decisions.

    But by all means lets refight the 1990s since refighting the 2016 primary was getting a bit old.

    And if Bill had shown up on my doorstep the night the Monica story broke I would have given him a sound beating with a 2×4

  77. 77
    tobie says:

    @Betty: Thank you, Betty, for checking in. We’ve all be wondering if you were okay. So glad to know you’re safe, so sorry to hear how slow the recovery has been and the toll it’s taking on you and everyone in Dominica.

  78. 78
    Ridnik Chrome says:

    Malcolm Young from AC/DC has died.

  79. 79
    debbie says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    My best friend worked for Harvey when he and his brother started Miramax. Believe me, it blew up all by itself. It needed no help from Putin.

  80. 80
    Shalimar says:

    @lamh36: Clarence Thomas seems a lot more relevant today than Bill Clinton, considering taxpayers are still paying Clarence and he has one of the most important jobs in the country.

  81. 81
    debbie says:

    @debbie:

    I can’t edit me! I want to add that there is absolutely no way it is a conspiracy.

  82. 82
    zhena gogolia says:

    @debbie:

    But why now? And why did it merit multiple page-long articles day after day in the NYT? Is he really that important?

  83. 83
    debbie says:

    @Shalimar:
    thur
    Absolutely. If the charges against Bill are going to be brought up, so too should Clarence Thomas. Also Strom Thurman.

  84. 84
    danielx says:

    Mercy…went to bed at 1, woke up at 6, went back to sleep for a couple of hours, and it’s going to rain all day. Good day to nap, eat, nap some more…..

  85. 85
    debbie says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    No. I think he was getting more and more out of control. Plus Hollywood.

    If there is a conspiracy (and nothing can be ruled out anymore), I’d bet on a competitor, or even his now pending ex-wife.

  86. 86
    Uncle Cosmo says:

    @D58826:

    Bill wasn’t the first POTUS to have an extra-marital affair both before and after he was elected.

    And lest we forget, Warren Gamaliel Harding (“The only man, woman, or child who ever wrote a simple declarative sentence with seven grammatical errors” [e.e. cummings]) – whose wife the Secret Service (at least) once prevented from entering the Oval Office until his mistress could be spirited out another door.

  87. 87
    debbie says:

    @debbie:

    Also, the salaciousness factor. That sells papers.

  88. 88
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @zhena gogolia: Ah, but Sessions is Trump’s obstacle to firing Mueller and shutting the whole investigation down! I’ve heard more than one person suggest that that’s the point of somehow putting Sessions back in his old Senate seat as a replacement for Moore. As well as suggestions that putting Sessions in jail could have the same effect, though that’s probably too slow.

  89. 89
    hueyplong says:

    I comfort myself in the belief that Robert Mueller III doesn’t care what Kayla Moore thinks and is not following the Al Franken story.

  90. 90
    Lyrebird says:

    @Baud: Excellent point re: not necessarily blaming or involving spouses.

    What this individual is saying, though, reminds me of a point that I wanted to make in the various threads reacting to Franken-having-acted-like-a-dumbass. Won’t add a “-gate” since this is pretty real.

    But an all-female congress helps how? What if they’re all like this so-called Christian, or like that awful person who wanted to block the Matthew Shepard (sp?) bill? Rep. Bachmann? Palin?

    Absolutism doesn’t help, imnsho.

  91. 91
    D58826 says:

    @Uncle Cosmo: And wasn’t there a little bundle of joy from one of his ‘non-wives’?

  92. 92
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @hueyplong: Hoping he has his Plans B, C, D and E all plotted out if he gets the axe, though.

  93. 93
    tobie says:

    I feel like the growing awareness of how men-in-power have routinely abused their power has led to painting everything with a broad brushstroke. We do this because harassment is something where moral clarity is needed. Even so it would be nice if we had better descriptors for what we’re talking about in different cases. There’s outright sexual assault (Trump, Moore, Weinstein, Sandusky, Hastert, Cosby, etc); there’s outright sexual harassment (Clarence Thomas, Louis CK, etc.); there are consensual relationships with disturbing power differentials (Clinton, Gingrich, Hyde, etc.); and there’s tastelessness (Franken’s sexist joke). The first two categories warrant prosecution. I really need to chew on what would be an appropriate public response to the next two categories. For what it’s worth: I thought the letter of apology Al Franken wrote Leann Tweeden was heartfelt.

  94. 94
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Also some are better at hiding it than others. A woman I know had a literal heart attack when she found out what her husband was up to. she suspected he was having an affair. The reality was much worse. Another pillar of the Church, too.

  95. 95
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @Shalimar: Though, in purely political self-interest terms, taking down Clarence Thomas at this point would be a modest boon for Trump and the Republicans–he gets yet another Supreme Court appointment, in a seat that probably wouldn’t have been vacated otherwise.

  96. 96
    Adria McDowell says:

    Kayla Moore doxxed people? What a bitch.

  97. 97
    Davebo says:

    Malcom Young dead at 64. I had no idea he was battling with dementia.

    http://www.rollingstone.com/mu.....64-w512164

  98. 98
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @zhena gogolia: The dam broke in a flood of revelations. It’s always this way.

  99. 99
    D58826 says:

    @tobie: agree with you breakdown. for

    there are consensual relationships with disturbing power differentials (Clinton, Gingrich, Hyde, etc.); and there’s tastelessness (Franken’s sexist joke). The first two categories warrant prosecution. I really need to chew on what would be an appropriate public response to the next two categories.

    For the last two I think criminal prosecution is probably overkill. As far as a public response, I think it depends on context and frequency. Especially the 4th category since everyone makes stupid mistakes, esp when young. This will become more and more of a problem given that people now record everything and there are security cameras everywhere.

  100. 100
    gene108 says:

    @debbie:

    Also Strom Thurman.

    Yes. Let us not forget Strom, when he was 22, knocked up his 16 year old African-American maid. And spent the rest of his life hiding the fact he had that child.

    Edit: And worked to make sure life was harder for his baby-mama and his daughter.

  101. 101
    MattF says:

    Started that video with Kayla, but with one look at those crucifix earrings, I’d seen enough. Petty, I suppose.

  102. 102
    debbie says:

    @gene108:

    Cokie Roberts said last week that years ago, in the middle of an interview, he kissed her on her lips uninvitedly.

  103. 103
    Baud says:

    @tobie:

    Even so it would be nice if we had better descriptors for what we’re talking about in different cases.

    They sowed the same confusion when it came to “emails.”

  104. 104
    West of the Rockies (been a while) says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Yes. Why doesn’t Clarence Thomas have to go away? Or Newt Gingrich? Or Donald Trump?

  105. 105
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Lyrebird:

    But an all-female congress helps how?

    Women are perpetrators of this behavior too. It happened to me once.** I suspect the power dynamics are a lot more confusing when it is “woman on man” tho. It certainly was for me.

    **back in the 70s early 80s I had 3 such… “incidents” with men. Nothing even close to rape, but still uncomfortable.

  106. 106
    germy says:

    “Girls” creator and outspoken feminist Lena Dunham is being torn apart for defending a writer and producer on her HBO show after he was accused of raping an actress when she was 17.

    “Jem and the Holograms” star Aurora Perrineau went public Friday with the sordid allegation against writer and producer Murray Miller, The Wrap reported.

    But Dunham, citing “insider knowledge” of the situation, called the accusation against her longtime colleague “one of the 3 percent of assault cases that are misreported every year.”

    I believe in a lot of things but the first tenet of my politics is to hold up the people who have held me up, who have filled my world with love.— 💎 Lena Dunham 💎 (@lenadunham) November 17, 2017

    "3% of them are totally trying to tank my friend who definitely didn't rape anyone, according to him"— Nandini (@nandelabra) November 18, 2017

  107. 107
    tobie says:

    @Adria McDowell:

    Kayla Moore doxxed people?

    Revealing a journalist’s home address puts that journalist in real danger. Kayla Moore went there. It’s all but an incitement to violence and negates whatever she has to say. She’s acted like a thug.

  108. 108
    rikyrah says:

    @Betty:
    Thank you for checking in.

  109. 109
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Gelfling 545: I knew my ex was fucking around long before I faced the reality of it.

  110. 110
    Davebo says:

    @LurkerNoLonger:

    I don’t know. There’s tons of information out there about his charity grift.

    His supporters don’t care. If you’re OK with groping kids a little fraudulent tax reporting isn’t going to bother you.

  111. 111
    rikyrah says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    You telling nothing but the truth, BC

  112. 112
    MomSense says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    Another issue is that divorce is really expensive. You can’t always get out when you want to.

  113. 113
    germy says:

    Good morning, Alabama!Day 4 of New York attorney Gloria Allred's refusal to turn over her fake yearbook for third party examination.#ALSen— Judge Roy Moore (@MooreSenate) November 18, 2017

  114. 114
    Davebo says:

    Foundation for Moral Law

    This charitable organization either has not responded to written BBB requests for information or has declined to be evaluated in relation to BBB Standards for Charity Accountability. Charity participation in BBB review is voluntary. However, without the requested information, it is not possible to determine whether this charity adheres to all of the BBB Standards for Charity Accountability.

  115. 115
    gene108 says:

    @debbie:

    There’s this Sally Quinn story:

    Washington writer Sally Quinn told of a 1950s reception where: “My mother and I headed for the buffet table. As we were reaching for the shrimp, both of us jumped and let out a shriek. Senator Strom Thurmond, grinning from ear to ear, had one hand on my behind and the other on my mother’s. As I recall, we were both quite flattered, and thought it terribly funny and wicked of Ol’ Strom.”

    She was born in 1941, so was probably a teenager at the time.

  116. 116
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @tobie:

    She’s acted like a thug.

    What union does she belong to?

  117. 117
    germy says:

    So to be clear: Lena Dunham has chosen to call a WoC a liar. Because— we should believe all women! except this black one— don’t believe her. https://t.co/FVNhK3BjIP— Shanelle Little (@ShanelleLittle) November 18, 2017

  118. 118
    tobie says:

    @Baud: Republicans are really good at putting Democrats on the defensive. That’s why Hillary could never get ahead of the email story and that’s why separating sexism from sexual harassment or sexual assault sounds like splitting hairs. I’ve got to hope that enough women out there know the difference.

  119. 119
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @MomSense: My big issue was my sons. Even after we had decided to divorce I kept putting off moving out. I finally realized I was afraid to leave them with her.

  120. 120
    Emma says:

    @germy: I can understand that. Harassers and abusers often have people they do not act against, and in fact, who they support both in their careers and their personal life. I don’t know whether it’s done deliberately or not. But when it hits the fan, those people jump to their defense hammer and thongs. From second-hand observation of an incident in my extended family, when the facts are all public, the defenders can go into extended periods of depression and self-blame.

  121. 121
    tobie says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: Union of Hypocrites?

  122. 122
    Mike J says:

    @West of the Rockies (been a while):

    Or Newt Gingrich?

    Newt can’t go away because one of his mistresses is the US Ambassador to the Vatican.

  123. 123
    germy says:

    @tobie:

    there’s outright sexual harassment (Clarence Thomas, Louis CK, etc.)

    Louis crossed the line into assault when he pushed a woman into a bathroom. He later apologized for it, but to the wrong woman(!) He couldn’t remember which woman he’d pushed into a bathroom.

  124. 124
    Betty Cracker says:

    @D58826: I have no desire to debate the merits of Bill Clinton again — like I said, I voted for the man twice, and I knew who he was. But demanding better behavior from a leader isn’t the same as requiring “the sanctity of Jesus.” The behavior of men who serially harass women (or worse) isn’t just an indication that they’re shitty husbands — it says something about how they view women. It says something about their character.

    I don’t advocate re-litigating the presidencies of every horn-dog who ever held office. Heck, most of our founding fathers were such rotten people that they owned other human beings, and we haven’t stricken them from the history books, nor should we, IMO. But neither should we gloss over their crappy behavior, in either case. Moving forward, we should demand better.

  125. 125
    GregB says:

    @gene108:

    Unfair!

    That was when he was a Democrat.

  126. 126
    germy says:

    @MomSense:

    Another issue is that divorce is really expensive. You can’t always get out when you want to.

    In Kayla’s case, I wonder if “losing face” is a factor.

    While a progressive balloon-juice commenter would have support, admiration and encouragement for leaving a cheating or abusive spouse, someone in Kayla’s worship circle would see it as a failure and perhaps even blame her for not being a good wife.

  127. 127
    hedgehog the occasional commenter says:

    @Betty: So glad you are safe.

  128. 128
    debbie says:

    @gene108:

    Eeew. That is just gross.

  129. 129
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @tobie: I had no idea they were organized. Must be a pretty strong union to exist in Right to Work for beans Ala-fucking-bama!

  130. 130
    Baud says:

    @Betty Cracker: I blame Broadway for glamorizing Alexander Hamilton.

    #MnemosynesStillAsleep

  131. 131
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Moving forward, we should demand better.

    Before we can move forward, we have to stop moving backward.

  132. 132
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @germy:

    someone in Kayla’s worship circle would see it as a failure and perhaps even blame her for not being a good wife.

    Oh yeah. “HE wouldn’t be looking/fooling around if you were a better wife.” has been around since the first caveman dragged a woman by the hair.

  133. 133
    rikyrah says:

    @Quinerly:
    Morning Poco and the tribe 😄😎

  134. 134
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @germy:

    The Lena Dunham who serially sexually abused her sister for years?

    Gosh, maybe someday people will care about sexual crimes, even if they happened years ago

  135. 135
    Calouste says:

    @germy: There might be a lot more going on even. The timeline of when Kayla got pregnant during her first marriage, when Roy left Alabama, when he returned, when Kayla filed for divorce, has some interesting timings.

  136. 136
    Matt says:

    Kayla, on the other hand, is too old to start over and too young for Social Security

    Don’t worry, housing’s free at the state pen. She’s a co-conspirator in the charity-fleecing, at minimum. At maximum, she’s been burying the bodies in the backyard.

  137. 137
    MomSense says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: a

    That’s another major factor for people who are afraid to separate or divorce.

  138. 138
    Matt McIrvin says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: That was one of the major attacks on Hillary Clinton, from the 1990s through last year.

  139. 139
    germy says:

    @Calouste:

    has some interesting timings.

    Which is why she doxxed that reporter. She’s feeling a very strong rage right now because it’s all tumbling down.

  140. 140
    Betty Cracker says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: I’m responding to a comment posted this morning that seemed dismissive of the serious nature of what Clinton did. I’ve got no desire to relitigate Bill Fucking Clinton, but part of moving forward is learning from past errors.

  141. 141
    Amaranthine RBG says:

    @Betty Cracker:
    Exactly right way to handle this. Concede his crimes and then move on

    It’s counterproductice to try to parse his behavior

    He’s the past.

  142. 142
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Betty Cracker: I know Betty. I was just engaging in a little bit of wordplay considering the current resident of the White House.

  143. 143
    Steve in the ATL says:

    @Baud:

    I blame Broadway for glamorizing Alexander Hamilton.

    #MnemosynesStillAsleep

    Oh shit—it’s all over. Closing my browser for a few days until the coming Hamilton frenzy passes!

  144. 144
    mai naem mobile says:

    @Betty: oh I am so glad you made it through the hurricane and made it to mainland US. I hope things improve on Dominica at a lot faster pace than currently.

  145. 145
    mai naem mobile says:

    I am still genuinely surprised Roy Moore wasn’t taken down before. He was powerful but I have to believe the other judges and lawyer had power in their hands too. I understand Weinstein and Kevin Spacey getting away with stuff for this long a lot more than Moore.

  146. 146
    sukabi says:

    @lamh36: I get a 404 error page😠

  147. 147
    D58826 says:

    @Betty Cracker: Drawing back for a 10k foot look at this. I don’t watch much TV anymore but I suspect the sexual innuendo has only gotten worse since the days of Cheers/Night Court/Golden Girls and MASH.
    I remember one Night Court episode where the asst’t DA who was much taller than the well endowed public defender supposedly looking at the necklace looked down her cleavage and ask ‘Are they new” . Even my pet rock knew what the ‘they. referred to. Is that really any worse that the Franken photo? The movie code was instituted in the early 1930’s because of the nudity and racy nature of some of the movies. And all of the WWII airplane nose art around scantly clad pinups. The check out line at the supermarket is loaded with scantly dressed models flaunting their abs and promising to tell the secrets of keeping your man satisfied.
    None of this excuses Weinstein/Moore/Der Fuhrer but drawing lines and shades of grey as to what is and isn’t acceptable is growing more and more difficult.

    What Franken did is not new. We seem to have entered this weird period of the porn-saturated internet while going all Puritan over the Janet Jackson nipple.

  148. 148
    sharl says:

    @Betty Cracker: FWIW, an interview of Rebecca Traister was aired this morning on Scott Simon’s Weekend Morning Edition on this very topic; more specifically, on the cover provided to Bill Clinton by feminist writers and public intellectuals at the time. She is in favor of the re-examination, although she has some of the same concerns about it that have been voiced around these parts.

    Over the 6 minutes of the interview, I thought Traister did a pretty good job covering the potential value and risk of revisiting the history of that horndog and his “bimbo eruptions,” as his Arkansas chief-of-staff Betsy Wright called them (and assuming she hasn’t weighed in already, I would love to know what Wright thinks about all this now).

  149. 149
    bystander says:

    Interesting discussion on AM Joy about the Flynn-Erdogan-Trump connection. One guest said we may be discussing charges of treason if Trump was running intereference to prevent prosecution of Flynn as an unregistered, double agent of Turkey.

    And every time I see the Museum of the Bible’s email address (their commercial is on every two minutes) I think it says Museum of the Edible.

  150. 150
    zhena gogolia says:

    @gene108:

    Okay, this is probably the time to recall Shirley Temple’s story of how Arthur Freed was exposing himself to her (11 years old) in one room while Louis B. Mayer was sexually harassing her mother in another room at good old MGM. It’s in her wonderful autobiography Child Star. I think MoDo or Sarah Lyall or somebody recalled this tale in one of the 1000 Weinstein thumb-suckers.

  151. 151
    zhena gogolia says:

    @bystander:

    What did Tambor do? (too lazy to google)

  152. 152
    aimai says:

    @Betty Cracker: Jesus christ was 70 million dollars and multiple lives ruined trying to find something, anything, to charge him with not enough for you?This fantasy that Bill Clinton “got away” with something or that this was not all fully aired the harsh light of day is beyond me.

  153. 153
    D58826 says:

    @sharl:

    more specifically, on the cover provided to Bill Clinton by feminist writers and public intellectuals at the time. She is in favor of the re-examination,

    I’m in favor of the re-evaluation also but not sure now is the right time. (hate to sound like the gun lobby). My reasoning is that rather than a complete re-evaluation of Clinton the man and his life, it will become one more set of weaponized talking points by the various tribes on TV/internet to prove one thing or another.

  154. 154
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @D58826:

    We seem to have entered this weird period of the porn-saturated internet while going all Puritan over the Janet Jackson nipple.

    The best of both worlds!

  155. 155
    bystander says:

    @zhena gogolia: something about the co-star. I’m too repulsed to read any details. I feel lucky Disney XD is rerunning a lot of Phineas and Ferb.

  156. 156
    Adria McDowell says:

    @Betty: Thinking about you guys on the islands all the time….

  157. 157
    sharl says:

    @germy: If I am correctly interpreting this tweet from a freelancer who has been around awhile, writing about Lena Dunham in an honest way might pose some professional risks for a writer:

    Here's the only advice I can offer young writers: If your editor asks you at any point in the next few days if you have any thoughts about Lena Dunham, pretend you had a stroke.— Stassa Edwards (@StassaEdwards) November 18, 2017

  158. 158
    Calouste says:

    @germy: Yes, the active involvement of Kayla (she also posted the altered letter of support from 50 pastors), instead of her playing the usual good-Christian-wife-in-the-background role that seems to be the norm in these kind of situations, also suggests that there might be more going on.

  159. 159
    bystander says:

    @aimai: Agreed.
    @D58826: Yep.

  160. 160
    sylvania says:

    So your typical southern politicians wife and hypocrit, with the big hair that uses jesus and church in every sentence, says something and ball Juice bloggers are all understanding. Someone digs up an Al Franken picture to try distract the media, that is not at all the same thing as what Moore did and not nearly as bad, and you people are calling for his head.

    Ball juice really disappoints me sometimes.

  161. 161
    Schlemazel says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    Does that include the Piggly Wiggly you knocked over in Yazoo?

    Glad to know you are OK Betty very sad to hear that recovery is taking so long, wish we had a functioning government that could help.

  162. 162
    Emma says:

    @Amaranthine RBG: Jesus on a Harley. What crimes? Ken Starr spent $70 million and even put people in prison when they didn’t say what he wanted them to say and the only thing he could find out was that he had lied under oath. THAT WAS WHAT THE IMPEACHMENT WAS ABOUT.

  163. 163
    hitchhiker says:

    @tobie:

    Can I steal that? Very helpful.

  164. 164
    ThresherK says:

    @Calouste: There isn’t a cancer-stricken wife / fiance / pregnant mistress in that tale?

    Let’s face it, Newt and Hastert and Larry Craig have raised the bar on squick (and “what reporters know but don’t report”) for everyone.

  165. 165
    bystander says:

    @Calouste: Kayla’s fear of being the investigated for her complicity in the fraudulent asset transfer from the “foundation” may be a motivating factor. Plus the opportunity to wear her crucifix earrings.

  166. 166
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @sylvania: What thread are you (selectively) reading?

  167. 167

    FWIW, Kos has more pics up from the Tweeden/Franken USO tour. It’s hard to prove anything with photos that capture only a moment, especially in the era of photoshop, but they’re worth as much as the first picture posted I guess.

  168. 168
    D58826 says:

    and for those joining late a link to a long piece describing the Starr investigation and the fall out involving Clinton, the various women and why Starr didn’t go beyond Monica (hint he would have loved to but there was insufficient evidence). I don’t think he got off scott free. Unfortunately many are still angry that he wasn’t exited to Elba or better yet shot at dawn.

    And lets not forget that one of those prosecutors was name James Comey. Might explain his handling of ‘but her e-mails’. I’m sure he would have loved to file charges but that pesky lack of evidence thing kept getting in the way.

    http://www.nationalmemo.com/re.....ion-probe/

  169. 169
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Schlemazel: Ssshhhhh…. my wife doesn’t know about that.

  170. 170
    thalarctosMaritimus says:

    @Betty: So glad to hear from you! I was just thinking about you and hoping you made it through the storm and the aftermath all right.

    I know a lot of work still remains, and a lot of people are badly off. But hearing from you is a spot of very good news today.

  171. 171
    Peale says:

    @Emma: when we say “it was an affair between Consenting adults” we mean it. It’s in the god famed testimony.

  172. 172
    Schlemazel says:

    @GregB:
    Evangelicals believe we are all sinners incapable of salvation but by simply accepting Joshua into their heart they are guaranteed heaven. So go ahead & diddle a 14 year old, lie, cheat, steal and even a little light murder if thats your predilection as long as you accept the Christ you’re good to go. You see them live this creed every day here in America

  173. 173
    gene108 says:

    @zhena gogolia:

    Not surprised. I read one reason she got out of acting is how they wanted play up her sex appeal as she was getting more mature.

  174. 174
    raven says:

    @D58826: We’ll go through Elba on our way the the beach tomorrow!

  175. 175
    D58826 says:

    @Emma: And two points on that.
    1. He was stripped of his 5th amendment protections that should have allowed him to tell Starr to pound sand.
    2. After listening to hours of legal analysis on the perjury statute I cam away with
    a. what he lied about wasn’t material – who cares if he and Monica had sex 6 or 10 times
    b. w/o a 3rd corroborating witness you can’t not use an oath against an other to prove perjury.
    3. Some folks dug into old federal criminal trials for the 20th century and found only 2 in which perjury was the primary charge, so it wasn’t routine for federal prosecutors to launch that kind of investigation.
    Not a lawyer but that is what I remember about the debate

  176. 176
    sharl says:

    @D58826: My comment was poorly written – Traister’s primary concern isn’t so much with Bill Clinton himself, but rather with the future of the feminist movement, especially its credibility. From that perspective, any real or apparent compromise of feminist principles in order to support someone who is/was better on relevant issues (abortion/women’s health, wage parity, etc.) while ignoring that person’s bad behavior toward other people (especially women) has long term negative consequences for a movement’s credibility.

  177. 177
    Betty Cracker says:

    @D58826: Is it “Puritanism” to think it’s gross for a man to pretend to grope a sleeping woman? You’re right, there’s nothing new about that kind of behavior, but standards have changed, and that’s a GOOD thing, IMO. Franken now realizes the photo was disrespectful, and good for him. I thought his second statement on the matter was exactly right. He gets it.

    @aimai: I don’t think Clinton “got away with it” in the sense that the entire country wasn’t dragged through the whole sordid mess by a politically motivated special counselor. But he was given a pass by many feminists at the time and since then. I understand why. I defended the bastard myself back in the day and resented every second of it.

  178. 178
    bystander says:

    @Baud: Speaking of which, Lin Manuel Miranda is going to be on AM Joy tomorrow morning prior to the Puerto Rico solidarity march.

  179. 179
    Betty Cracker says:

    @sharl: Thanks — I’ll check it out. I’m a huge fan of Traister.

  180. 180
    D58826 says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady): from the KOS article

    can’t count how many representatives from the land of XY Chromosomes dumbly think that smiling at them—hell even just being nice to them!—is woman-code for oh yeah come get this, big daddy. (that old reptilian brain kicking in)(Spoiler alert: it’s not.) It’s long past time to give the old brain a workout and look for behavioral cues that will give you a better idea of how you are making a woman feel( Thats why god gave us the higher level functions in the cerebal cortex).

  181. 181
    Baud says:

    @D58826:

    look for behavioral cues that will give you a better idea of how you are making a woman feel

    I could use that lesson for all people. I have never done anything inappropriate sexually, but I have the toughest time reading nonverbal cues. It’s probably why I get along so well with you guys. It’s all text.

  182. 182
    D58826 says:

    @Betty Cracker:

    Is it “Puritanism” to think it’s gross for a man to pretend to grope a sleeping woman?

    Sorry you misunderstood. Of course it’s wrong but we are saturated with images of sex, oogling. learing, double meanings etc. and then go ballistic because of a split second wardrobe malfunction’ by Janet Jackson

  183. 183
    Schlemazel says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:
    I wish I could remember Ulysses’ next line, it was something about “But that don’t make things right with the State of Alabama”

  184. 184
    D58826 says:

    @Baud: Neither have I, or at least that I am aware of but a blind person is better at reading non-verbal ques. To me people are simply two dimensional stick figures. Which probably explains why I was lousy at Poetry 101 in college., Didn’t get the real meaning behind the words.

  185. 185
    Amir Khalid says:

    @Matt McIrvin:
    That’s funny. I don’t remember that it stopped.

  186. 186
    Baud says:

    @D58826: Yep, I enjoyed math and science more in school because they were more “certain” than human subjects. Too bad for me I wasn’t talented enough to make that my profession.

  187. 187
    Schlemazel says:

    @D58826:
    The other reason Starr could not pursue perjury was that he had suborned perjury. He know they had not had vaginal intercourse because he had tapes from whats-her-names calls to Lewinski detailing what had happened. When Starr asked CLinton if they had had sex WJC asked for a definition of ‘sex” & Starr very carefully excluded everything BUT vaginal intercourse. So WJC answered truthfully they had not had sex. That was not perjury & Starr could have gotten in trouble for trying to make CLinton appear to lie.

  188. 188
    D58826 says:

    Fox News host Brian Kilmeade blasted Roy Moore (R) on Friday after a woman accused the Alabama Senate candidate of calling her at her high school to ask her on a date when he was in his 30s.
    Kilmeade called the alleged behavior “obscene.”
    “I would kick his head in if it was one of my daughters, and then I would call the cops,” Kilmeade said on Friday’s “Brian Kilmeade Show” on Fox News Radio.

    And I bet Moore would do the same thing if it was one of HIS daughters.

    I’ve always wondered how the construction worker on a center city project would react if their wife/daughter/mother was subjected to the same harassment they inflict on the women walking by the construction site at lunch time

  189. 189
    OzarkHillbilly says:

    @Baud: @D58826: Them non-verbal cues are highly overrated. //

    On the more serious side, there was a time when I found it hard to read them too. To play it safe I oft times did not play at all. I got better at it but the old standby is always worth mentioning: If in doubt, ask.

  190. 190
    Schlemazel says:

    @Baud:
    Same here except I sort of made it a career. I have gotten a lot better at reading people as I have gotten older but I look back at my younger self now & recognize I screwed up so many times and missed so many things, I almost would rather I had not changed.

  191. 191
    bystander says:

    Rep. Denny Heck just said there will be more indictments.

    Hoping for a Merry Muellertide!

  192. 192
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    This woman is as vile as her husband.

    Both need to be escorted out of public life, forever.

  193. 193
    D58826 says:

    @Schlemazel: I don’t remember the phrasing of the question but the infamous ‘definition of yes’ comment was in answer to a multi-part question that no matter how you answered it you were lying about something. It was a perjury trap from the get go.
    And if IIRC the referral was released just before the Labor Day holiday. The calls from across the political spectrum for Clinton to resign were growing. Then they released the video of the grand jury testimony. It was obvious to any one that they were trying to frame a guilty man just for the sake of political gain and the tide of public opinion switched to Bill’s side. It wasn’t that people approved of what Bill did, they just disapproved of what Starr was doing more. They also seemed to realize that it was an attack on the checks and balances of our system and the importance of respecting election results. If Clinton had been forced from office under those circumstances then no POTUS would be safe from a politically motivated impeachment by the opposite party. I realize that impeachment is an inherently political act but the Clinton impeachment set the bar so low it was a danger to the stability of the system. After living thru the run up to the Nixon resignation it was obvious how an opposition party could carefully build a case that in the end attracted several Gop congressmen to vote yes on the committee recommendation. The Ervin Watergate hearings also showed how to go about investigating a scandal.

  194. 194
    Villago Delenda Est says:

    @D58826: This is kind of the standard of male behavior that needs to be taught to boys starting at say preschool: how would you feel if another boy did this to your sister? If you’d be angry about it, then don’t do it to any other girl.

  195. 195
    Amir Khalid says:

    @D58826:
    Did they blame Jackson for it? As I remember, it was Justin Timberland, I think that’s his name, who mistimed a move and ended up pulling her shirt open.

  196. 196
    D58826 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly:

    If in doubt, ask.

    or keep ones mouth shut

  197. 197
    gene108 says:

    @Baud:

    I also have trouble with non-verbal cues, which is one reason why I am still single.

    We should have evolved more obvious ways to interpret none verbal cues, like those monkeys or apes, whose asses turn red, when they are in heat.

  198. 198
    Brachiator says:

    @D58826:

    and for those joining late a link to a long piece describing the Starr investigation and the fall out involving Clinton, the various women and why Starr didn’t go beyond Monica (hint he would have loved to but there was insufficient evidence).

    Yeah. Brings back memories. And here is where I remember the Kafkaesque stupidity of the entire thing. Insufficient evidence is ridiculous, absurd. Starr did not find anything criminal. And so he tried to persecute Bill Clinton for lying about having sex.

    But it is goddam reasonable, understandable and to me acceptable for a married man in this situation to lie about having sex, even if it is just to protect the women involved. And no, I am not condoning adultery. If it ain’t criminal and not material to anything criminal, it ain’t nobody’s goddam business.

    The idea that once you have a prosecutor or the FBI involved, you must confess to everything and everyone is ridiculous.

    But even following the bullshit rules, impeachment was a farce, and that Clinton was not convicted by the Senate was absolutely correct.

    I guess insufficient evidence implies that there could be a case. But this was frivolous and vindictive abuse of the ability to investigate and prosecute.

    I don’t think he got off scott free.

    Yep.

  199. 199
    The Dangerman says:

    @Luigidaman:

    You don’t live with someone for forty years and not know all of their sexual preferences. This pervert probably still cruises high schools and malls to get his kicks.

    Not sure about the cruising but I guarantee that Mrs. Moore has a (well worn?) naughty high school cheerleader outfit in the closet.

  200. 200
    geg6 says:

    @bystander:

    I’m hoping for a lovely birthday present, which would be Friday! Better than yummy leftovers and pumpkin pie!

  201. 201
    D58826 says:

    @Amir Khalid: IIRC Jackson got the brunt of the blame because she was a Jackson. There was one camp that firmly believed it was an intentional publicity stunt because she WAS a Jackson. Kind of like ‘her e-mails’. The other camp believed it was a legitimate screwup. Having watched my share of bloopers and mis-cues from the old Carol Burnett show I was in the second camp.
    The irony is that the incident only consumed a second or two of air time before ABC cutaway. Since it was at half-time most of the TV audience was probably making a potty break or a food run. The same could be said for the stadium crowd. Once the RW made a big issue out of it, everyone under the sun started looking on their DVR or the internet to see what the hoha was about.

  202. 202
    Emma says:

    @The Dangerman: Oh Jesus. I just had lunch!

  203. 203
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @OzarkHillbilly: She knew something was going on. She just had no idea how disgusting it was. Being a “good Christian wife” she was going to wait it out. Then she found out that it was much worse than an affair.

  204. 204
    D58826 says:

    @Brachiator:

    to lie about having sex

    If we could weigh all of the lies about sex (married or single) it would probably weight more than all of the dark matter in the universe.

  205. 205
    No Drought No More says:

    Lord knows it can’t be easy, and just how a political spouse handles a public disclosure that impacts a marriage is no one’s business but his or her own. But when that spouse publicly defends pedophilia and the attempted rape of minors, that spouse is no better than an accomplice.

    And the same applies to the people who choose to thereafter politically support the couple, and who in their perverted arrogance then demand they be respected for theta decision, albeit for reasons that make sense only to their sick minds and twisted, un-Christian souls.

    Which is impossible, and will never happen.

    And to think: not all that long ago and for decades, it was California- “the land of fruits and nuts”- that was a perennial late night TV comedic punchline.

  206. 206
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Amir Khalid:

    I actually saw The Incident in real time on TV. It looked like it was genuinely a “wardrobe malfunction” — part of her top was supposed to be breakaway and leave her breast covered with a thin layer of red gauze (scandalous, but still covered). Instead, the whole thing came away when he pulled as rehearsed. Welcome to live TV!

    And, yeah, I’m still pissed that Timberlake ran away from the controversy rather than manning up and supporting Jackson.

  207. 207
    debbie says:

    @D58826:

    How long until someone comes along and says too much is being made of that?

  208. 208
    Schlemazel says:

    @Amir Khalid:
    It was no accident, it was a planned stunt. Look at their reaction, they are not surprised. The accident thing came after millions who never even saw the event were so deeply offended they demanded the FCC fine network for showing it.

  209. 209
    D58826 says:

    @Brachiator:

    Starr did not find anything criminal. And so he tried to persecute Bill Clinton for lying about having sex.

    And in the original whitewater investigation he file charges against a bunch of local small fry accountants, real estate agents etc, because they would not tell him what he wanted to hear. He held Susan McDougll in jail for contempt for 20 months because she would not confirm his theory that she and Bill were lovers.
    Funny for a man so obsessed with sex that he got canned from his university job because he tried to cover up a football team rape scandal.

  210. 210
    Mnemosyne says:

    @Dorothy A. Winsor (formerly Iowa Old Lady):

    Okay, looking at that last photo of the kiss as done in the actual performance, I still think that my thought that the rehearsal issue was a miscommunication is correct. I think she got freaked out by being grabbed like that in rehearsal and inflated it in her mind. It’s pretty obvious that the kiss as performed wasn’t supposed to be a peck on the lips.

  211. 211
    germy says:

    Just gross: Greg Gianforte misled police after assault of Guardian journalist, report reveals | US news https://t.co/H1eUE1tYUn— Katy Tur (@KatyTurNBC) November 18, 2017

    Just your friendly reminder that a guy who physically attacked a journalist and then lied about it to police was subsequently endorsed by the president, elected, and now serves in Congress. https://t.co/1zEiv3u4y0— Brian Klaas (@brianklaas) November 18, 2017

  212. 212
    debbie says:

    @D58826:

    Funny? No, just the universe having the last word. As always.

  213. 213
    D58826 says:

    @Schlemazel:

    The accident thing came after millions who never even saw the event were so deeply offended they demanded the FCC fine network for showing it

    fixed – The accident thing came after millions who never even saw the event livebut were so deeply offended once they looked it up on the internet they demanded the FCC fine network for showing it

  214. 214
    D58826 says:

    @debbie: karma can be a real b******

  215. 215
    Gelfling 545 says:

    @Betty Cracker: somebody, I can’t recall who as it wasn’t one of the household word names, had an editorial in WaPo yesterday her point being that Franken remaining in office if properly chastened -and I assume if nothing worse is discovered- is better for women than his resignation and replacement as he has consistently voted to support wonen’s rights and equality. Her feeling was that he should complete his term and not run again. I don’t know if I agree with the not running part. If we are going to exclude anyone who’s made an ass of himself in his past we are going to narrow the field to pretty much nonexistent. You may be sure that the Republicans would not be similarly delicate in their consciences: see: Trump, Donald.

  216. 216
    germy says:

    Can we stop calling sexual assault a ‘sex scandal’? Like if a person stabs someone it’s not a ‘knife debacle’— Deirdre (@figgled) October 30, 2017

  217. 217
    D58826 says:

    the only reason they didn’t run the same playbook on Obama was because he was so squeaky clean. If Hillary had won they already had Benghazi, e-mails, the Clinton foundation, and Uranium one lined up as potential articles for impeachment. They weren’t even going to wait till she was sworn in before starting hearings

  218. 218
    Brachiator says:

    @gene108:

    We should have evolved more obvious ways to interpret none verbal cues, like those monkeys or apes, whose asses turn red, when they are in heat.

    Ha! That’s just it. Our evolution discarded or minimized these traits that we used to share with our ape cousins. So no obvious signs of heat.

    I suppose that one result is that it complicates some social interactions.

  219. 219
    Brachiator says:

    @Gelfling 545:

    Her feeling was that he should complete his term and not run again. I don’t know if I agree with the not running part.

    I think the idea that Franken resign or not run again is total nonsense. I might reconsider my position if Trump resigns.

  220. 220
    D58826 says:

    @Brachiator: Well there is an evolutionary reason for that. Not sure if homo sapiens are the only species that are in HEAT full time but given that,there is no reason for the obvious outward display of other species. A lot of theories as to why we are unique in this respect but one thing can be said-with 7 billion + humans on the plant being perpetually in heat has been a very very big success.

    Now if IIRC the are some olfactory clues that indicate when a woman is at her most fertile but they are at a subconscious level.

  221. 221
    Suzanne says:

    I am not interested in taking scalps over this. I have zero doubt that every single man in any position of leadership in every industry either did something sexually inappropriate, or turned a blind eye when other men did it. That’s why we call it a rape culture. If we just destroy a few careers and call it a day, then we haven’t gotten to the crux of the issue.

    I want dudes to admit what they did, make an honest reckoning, and then work on themselves to do better. I want more women in positions of leadership, and I want women to feel supported when they come forward, rather than marginalized. Most of all, I want women to not be chased out of careers for this.

    Whether or not an individual dude keeps his job is not the question.

  222. 222
    Trentrunner says:

    @Betty Cracker: Since you’ve used the term twice now, I’ll say something:

    horndog

    …is another one of those words used to euphemize men’s sexual predation. Most terms that flatter men’s sexual appetites (look, there’s another!) are probably skunked, so I don’t know what words replace them.

    Bill Clinton’s particular history is a perfect example: Consensual sex (but with great power disparities) or unwanted sexual contact or even rape? There’s evidence for (and against) all these, but horndog elides them all into a good ole boy just doin’ what some good ole boys do.

    I can fuck off if you want.

  223. 223
    Trentrunner says:

    @The Dangerman: Not all Neptune’s Clorox will wash away that image.

  224. 224
    D58826 says:

    @Trentrunner: No you make a good point but the word does serve as a shorthand to describe his behavior w/o having to write multiple paragraphs. Some other words I can think of – rapist/pervert/etc – cover only certain actions that he may or may not have been guilty of. Horndog covers flirting to rape. But I’m open to another word

    Different topic but I’ve always regretted that the term tar baby has such a racist history. It certainly describes things rather well like the Vietnam war or Afghanistan where the more you struggle the more entangled you get.

  225. 225
    Omnes Omnibus says:

    @aimai: Yep, if there were crimes to be found, Starr would have found them.

  226. 226
    fuckwit says:

    @tjmn: that’s my worst nightmare. and it is very likely next to become real.

  227. 227
    D58826 says:

    @sharl: Understand. I think that we are, as Obama likes to say, moving toward a more perfect union or in this case society. Would anyone have imagined during the Clinton years that by 2017 gay marriage would be accepted as a matter of right. Or that transgenders would serve openly and proudly in the US military and be defended by the Joint Chiefs (not a bunch of raging liberals). This is a long over do step in the right direction. Will just take a while to figure out all of the new rules but ‘treat every woman like you would like your mom/sister/daughter/spouse treated’ is a good start. But even following that rule I can see a danger where a guy says something to one woman and she thinks it is hilarious while another is offended. And since your immediate family members all thought it was hilarious you are following the rule but still behaving in a way that to at least one woman is insensitive. It might be on a topic that she has a personal trauma in her past.

    There is a flip side danger however. Things like the false rape charges at the Univ of Va. hurt progress also. Gives the troglodytes the excuse to say ‘see they lie’

  228. 228
    Enhanced Voting Techniques says:

    @Gelfling 545:

    ou may be sure that the Republicans would not be similarly delicate in their consciences: see: Trump, Donald.

    I’ll go further than that, anyone who thinks harassment is more important than treason and people’s health care has their head thoroughly up their ass. People lives literally hang on the outcome of two issues. Moore getting elected to the Senate and Franken being forced to resigned, now there is a splendid message.

  229. 229
    D58826 says:

    @Enhanced Voting Techniques: I disagree. Both important in their own way. I think we can walk and chew gum at the same time

  230. 230
    D58826 says:

    Pastor Franklin Raddish of the Capitol Hill Independent Baptist Ministries has dismissed recent allegations of powerful men as attacks that are part of a so-called “war on men,” AL.com reports.
    “More women are sexual predators than men,” Rev. Raddish claimed.
    “Women are chasing young boys up and down the road, but we don’t hear about that because it’s not PC,” Rev. Raddish alleged.

    I can’t think of a thing to say

    https://www.rawstory.com/2017/11/more-women-are-sexual-predators-than-men-south-carolina-pastor-blames-war-on-men-to-defend-roy-moore/

  231. 231
    Marcia says:

    @Villago Delenda Est:

    This is kind of the standard of male behavior that needs to be taught to boys starting at say preschool: how would you feel if another boy did this to your sister? If you’d be angry about it, then don’t do it to any other girl.

    It might be effective; but the flaw in this argument has always been the suggestion that whatever deplorable behavior involved would have been okay if it was a stranger.

    You know. Someone the person can’t claim to ‘own.’

  232. 232
    Calouste says:

    @D58826: The thing to say is that we would like to know what the reverend is hiding. Most likely, since he mentioned it, young boys.

  233. 233
    SgrAstar says:

    @Betty: Betty, so good to know you’re ok. I’m happy to hear that your house also made it through the hurricane. Wishing you the best.

  234. 234
    SgrAstar says:

    @zhena gogolia: except that it was Ronan Farrow writing in thr New Yorker who blew up the Weinstein thing. There was even some discussion of the NYT trying to quash the story several years ago.

  235. 235
    Brachiator says:

    @D58826:

    Well there is an evolutionary reason for that. Not sure if homo sapiens are the only species that are in HEAT full time but given that,there is no reason for the obvious outward display of other species.

    Not quite full time heat, but disguised estrus and ongoing receptivity.

    Primatologists have noted that bonobos treat coitus like a handshake without regard to any fertility cycle.

  236. 236
    tjmn says:

    @fuckwit:
    I hope K. Moore gets charged with murder if that happens.

  237. 237
    Big Jim Slade says:

    We need a new bracelet: Whom Would Jesus Molest?

  238. 238
    Paul T says:

    “Raymond Shaw is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I’ve ever known in my life.”

    Kayla Moore starring in the Manchurian Candidate.

  239. 239
    No One You Know says:

    @Betty Cracker: Ah-MEN!
    Dead thread, I know, but I needed to say it.

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