The GOP tax bill is a steaming pile of shit:
Families would also no longer be able to deduct their state income taxes from their federal taxable income, another change that would have a particular impact on places like New Jersey and New York, where state taxes are higher than in other areas. Taxpayers will be able to deduct their property taxes up to $10,000.
Americans would no longer be able to deduct their medical expenses or property and casualty losses, according to a document outlining the plan.
Anyone in New York or New Jersey who votes for this should be waterboarded.
And this:
Including a literal tax hike on orphans seems like a questionable decision to me.
— Matthew Yglesias (@mattyglesias) November 2, 2017
d58826
It was never a question as to whither it would be a pile of steaming s*t. It was just a question of how big a pile. I guess the GOP has gone for the extra large pile
Nicole
Ah… the property tax thing is how they’ll try to get it past the (mostly blue) states with state income tax. For homeowners, it may be a better deal. For renters, like myself, and likely even a lot of homeowners in NYC, which has low property taxes, it’s indeed a steaming pile of shit. But they aren’t expecting to woo NYC voters anyway, so who the fuck cares?
Major Major Major Major
@Nicole: For renters in high-tax states like NY and CA it’s gonna be a big hit. But we’re Democrats, so who the fuck cares.
oatler.
It’s almost like they’re going for a quick smash-and-grab of the nation’s wealth because they assume a large castastrophe in the near future.
Major Major Major Major
@oatler.: With the way they were doing the Obamacare repeal and now this, they’re going for huge, structural changes that reek of desperation, like they think this will be their last time in power for a generation. And in Obamacare repeal, they were willing to fail rather than compromise. Seems weirdly… pessimistic.
gvg
how can you tax orphans? Not asking about their morals, I just don’t know what Yglesias is talking about.
MattF
Maybe it’s a detail, but the Alternative Minimum Tax is repealed, just a throw-away benefit to the wealthy.
Raoul
Saw an indication that self-paying for a nursing home will no longer be deductible. Not sure of that yet as I’ve been in Mercer-land this a.m.
But if true: Congratulations republican retirees who vote for these sumbitches!
Raoul
@MattF: Derailing AMT has been a dream of Republicans for decades. That it would help Trump immensely is, I’m so very sure, just a coinkydink.
@oatler.: Yup!
gvg
@Major Major Major Major: They have been demonizing compromises for at least 15 years now, which when I think about it is a clever way to sabotage democracy. A democracy is a government by committee and that is a good thing. they have painted themselves into a corner. I might think it was funny if it was happening to some other country. A really clever enemy could have encouraged this stupid philosophy on purpose. I have actually wondered in Ann Rand was really a deep cover agent because some really bad stuff has resulted from her.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Nicole:
Has it ever been this bad where legislators try to pass legislation that will fuck over lots of people they know will never vote for them?
Kay
well, let’s call our senators. Ugh. Portman again.
Yarrow
Texas has some of the highest property tax rates in the country. Capping it at $10K will hurt wealthier voters in Texas and they tend to vote Republican. Not sure this will be popular there. Maybe some leverage there.
Jonny Scrum-half
Democrats need a response to arguments like “why should states that don’t have income taxes support those that do?” I don’t know the answer, but it seems to me that one possible response is that states like NJ and NY wouldn’t need a state income tax if they weren’t sending more in taxes to the federal government than they were receiving from the federal government.
Major Major Major Major
This bill is basically specifically targeted to hurt the kind of person I aspire to be.
mad citizen
While I still think sometimes we’re living in a bad dream, the optimist side of me says if they pass a S sandwich, it will only inrease voter turnout and votes against them that much more. And whatever they do (except gorsuch and god forbid more judges) can be undone in 2021.
That said, I’m also hoping it all comes crashing down because TRAITORS, and Hillary is installed by general consent. Yes, rainbows and unicorns in my brain!
Major Major Major Major
@gvg:
I’ll admit I get a good chuckle out of England.
? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?
@Jonny Scrum-half:
Because they suppport your welfare mooching asses. Because red states are poorly-run kleptocratic pseudo-democracies. Because blue states (and blue localities like cities) are where a lot of the economic activity is. Duh.
Jumbo76
Fun fact: Texas has no state income tax and funds itself entirely through property taxes. This change to the SALT deduction impacts only “liberal” states.
Mai.naem.mobile
@Nicole: Are you sure NYC has low property taxes? I don’t know about NYC but I have a friend from Rochester who pays a lot of property taxes. I don’t know the split between county ,city and state taxes. Also,landlords are only going to eat so much of the hike and then pass it onto the tenants.
The medical expenses is fucked up. You can’t deduct unless your expenses are greater than 7 percent of your income so you’re going to hit people with expensive chronic illnesses and maybe push them into nursing homes or disability.
tobie
@Jonny Scrum-half: Thank you. As a Marylander, I always wonder why I should fund states like Alabama and Kansas that are consistently in the red financially and red politically. Funny how the two meanings of red converge there.
dr. bloor
@Nicole: Leaving the property tax deduction in (with a ceiling) will be of little use to folks who no longer benefit from itemized deductions because SALT are no longer deductible.
nasruddin
Rich people in the midwest and Texas and a few other places with real estate investments should be real pleased, too.
These states have unbelievable and confiscatory real estate taxes (perhaps to make up for their
irresponsibly low taxes in other areas). Agriculture real estate taxes, for instance, are essentially a kind of
income tax, based on expected yields from the farm land.
I think there’s going to be some yodeling about this.
This congress is so incredibly inept and stupid. We need a new form of government.
Major Major Major Major
@Jumbo76: And I bet most mortgages in Texas are far below the $500,000 cap.
rikyrah
There are close to 50 GOP Reps in these high tax states.
These people are not GOP because of the little Baby Jesus, Abortion or Guns.
They are GOPers because THEY WANT LOW TAXES.
They are telling these GOPers to commit Career Suicide.
Their constituents are the IGMFY Crowd, and they WILL know who voted for their taxes to be raised. They are obsessed about it.
Uh huh
Uh huh
SatanicPanic
On the bright side I think they’ll probably fail at passing it. Probably
Roger Moore
California, also, too.
Kay
Oh, well. Look on the bright side. If they get their huge tax cut maybe they won’t kill a million people by withdrawing health care.
JPL
The mortgage deduction cap would also hurt the burbs north of Atlanta. Even in my area, new homes are being built for 1,000,000 and up.
Major Major Major Major
So the NYT says that they need to keep the cost below $1.5 trillion in order to use reconciliation–I guess the reconciliation instructions in the budget they’re hammering out must have that as the cap. My first instinct was that the state/local deduction and mortgage interest stuff was bargaining chips they could get rid of to make blue state repubs think they’re compromising, but since this is right up against that cost limit, maybe it isn’t.
Or maybe it’s something they think they can trade away with Democrats to give themselves bipartisan cover. Dunno what they’d replace it with, since again, cost ceiling.
Waynski
Your effin’ A right, Doug. For as long as I can remember, I consistently pay more in State than federal taxes, precisely because I’ve lived in New York and/or New Jersey my whole life, which has been a large part of why suburban and upstate New Yorkers (IRRC, Doug, you’re in Rochester or thereabouts, right?) and suburban/rural New Jerseyans have consistently voted Republican. We pay mad state taxes, which most folks don’t get too worked about b/c we get reasonably good services in return
– mostly reliable public transport, mostly good schools and public universities, etc.
Eliminating that deduction will be a big kick kick betwixt our knees. But, you know, we rarely vote R in national elections, so I guess it’s pay back time.
Also, too, I expect to see an yet unnounced whopping loophole for the rich in NY/NJ. Believe it.
Matt McIrvin
@Jonny Scrum-half: Low-tax states rely on the feds to cover for their lack of social services and functional government, and that money comes from the higher-tax states. We can take the “makers/takers” argument they keep trying to use about people and flip it for states– not to blame poor people, but because so many of the poorer states are keeping their citizens poor through malicious misgovernment.
Elizabelle
I don’t think their tax legislation will succeed. It reeks of desperation.
We have to stop it. I think we can.
chopper
@Major Major Major Major:
For owners as well – they’re cutting the mortgage deduction limit in half. which is a royal screwjob to people in better-off blue states and cities with high housing costs. hell, I’ll get pretty well boned by that part.
Cermet
All this so they can cut the corporate rate of 35% to 20% but no significant corporations pay anywhere near the 20% much less the 35%. Really a good move thugs!
Brachiator
Everybody, please note that the House and Senate are writing their own versions of the tax bill. The Senate version is expected to drop early next week.
The House bill does two main things. Gives the wealthiest massive tax cuts and increases the deficit. This will allow the GOP to come around later and insist that they need to cut Social Security and Medicare in order to deal with the deficit.
But some middle class conservatives will be happy with the small tax cuts they might get, and dream of being rich and getting that big time tax cut gravy.
ETA: Also, I haven’t checked to see if they are trying to make all this retroactive for all of 2017.
SatanicPanic
@Roger Moore: RWNJs will blame Mexicans. They always do.
TenguPhule
The Republican solution is more shit, less bread.
Captain C
FTFY
Also, like in NY and NJ, anyone in Cali who votes for this won’t be in congress come January 2019.
TenguPhule
@Kay:
The only way to fund the tax cut is to kill millions by fucking with their health care.
Barbara
@rikyrah: Yep. There are nearly 50 Republican House members from California, Illinois, New Jersey, New York and Pennsylvania. That’s more than twice the number that would be needed to flip the House. Remember, however, that even now most people do not itemize their taxes, and SALT is an itemized deduction. So this change squarely hits the kind of people who are more likely to vote R in a lot of blue states — people living in wealthier suburban enclaves who do itemize deductions. Orange County, CA or Long Island, NY (Peter King’s district). I am very neutral on mortgage interest deduction overall, because I think its impact on affordability is washed out by the fact that benefit from the deduction is more than offset by the tendency to make the price higher, and it is unfair to renters. Having said that, anything that changes it would need to be transitional because there are so many people who have relied on it in buying a house.
ETA: These are also the 50 people who should be getting calls every day from people in their district. Ryan cannot afford to lose more than 20 of them. And there are most likely others in places like Florida and Virginia that would be vulnerable as well.
TenguPhule
@Elizabelle:
And if we don’t, kill em all.
Nicole
@Mai.naem.mobile: Compared with once you’re out of the five boroughs, yes, very much so. I had a coworker at a place I worked in Manhattan who was desperately trying to buy a house within the city limits because of the lower property taxes. She finally gave up, because the flip side to the low property taxes is that the actual cost of buying property in the five boroughs is incredibly high. I once looked at HFDC programs here, which are buildings that were established for middle income and low income New Yorkers to have a chance to buy property. Two bedroom apartments in some of them go for $400,000. And some of the buildings have such bad financials that you can’t get mortgages, so it has to be all-cash purchases.
JMG
@Brachiator: Budget with the $1.5 trillion allowance for deficit increase already cuts Medicaid by $1 trillion and Medicare by $500 billion.
Raoul
@gvg: A portion of this goes back to getting rid of Congressional earmarks. It was the morally dubious grease that actually allowed for compromise and a (somewhat) greater good.
Lee
@Major Major Major Major:
A lot of the mortgages in the blood red suburbs are well over $500k and their property taxes are high as well.
PST
I am getting an impression that this bill favors the rich at the expense of the reasonably well off and mostly leaves the bottom two thirds of the income distribution alone. Increasing the standard deduction to $24,000 for a couple makes all the changes in itemized deductions irrelevant for most people. Mortgages over $500,000 and property taxes over $10,000 are characteristic of upper middle class families. It looks to me offhand like there is much in this bill for traditional country club Republicans to hate. Those people aren’t going to be affected the proposed phasing out of the estate tax and most are not affected by the ATM. The pass-through provisions that let income from partnerships and Subchapter S corporations be taxed at 25 percent evidently will not apply to professionals like lawyers and accountants, if I understand correctly. I could very easily be missing a lot, but it is almost as if the Republicans were turning on the bourgeoisie.
Nicole
@dr. bloor: Well, that’s comforting. I mean that sincerely; anything that makes this bill more likely to fail is a good thing.
Brachiator
@Cermet:
I’m also thinking that there is an extra tax cut built into this.
Wouldn’t it benefit some with an S Corp or Individual Schedule C to change to a C Corp in order to take advantage of a lower tax rate?
Lee
@Nicole:
I don’t understand this. For instance the building that the apartment is in is so underwater in its mortgage that you have to buy your apartment with cash because the entire building might get foreclosed & you moved out?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Since they want to also eliminate all the other itemized deductions, I suspect they may try to wiggle back on that expanded standard deduction while also killing personal exemptions among other kicks to the groins of the poors and lower middles.
TenguPhule
@PST:
Which gets taken back with the loss of personal exemptions.
Petorado
And the cool thing about simultaneously driving up the debt with this tax plan is that the supremely rich will stuff this extra bolus of new money into federal bonds that finance the debt so they can get a steady, sustained return off of investments when the economy craters. Win-win baby!
TenguPhule
@oatler.:
What do you mean, almost?
Major Major Major Major
@PST:
Unless you pay more than $12,000 a year in state and local taxes plus property taxes over $10,000.
Brachiator
Also, a little bit on the reproductive rights front
The University of Notre Dame has decided to eliminate coverage for birth control pills
Go Trojans!!
Roger Moore
@Kay:
And maybe Santa and the Easter Bunny will make up for the lost revenue.
Yarrow
Okay, so we’re bitching about this proposed tax bill on this thread. Who’s calling their Reps? I’m getting on the phone in about a half and hour. Going to call my Senators too. Starting early.
Major Major Major Major
@Yarrow: I imagine Pelosi, Feinstein, and Harris are against it, but it couldn’t hurt to give them an ‘attaboy.
TenguPhule
@gvg:
They want to disallow being able to deduct medical expenses or property and casualty losses.
Roger Moore
@Cermet:
They’re going to cut the tax rate but not all the loopholes that let those companies pay so little. That way they’ll pay even less.
Brachiator
@PST:
When you look at the big items, such as a proposed elimination of the estate tax and the alternative minimum tax, you might say that the GOP considers the lower classes irrelevant and decided to declare total war on the middle class.
randy khan
I’d guess the state income tax provisions make it impossible for any Tuesday Group Reps to vote for it.
Doug R
@Roger Moore: Gov Brown has said as much:
as reported by the LA Times.
Yarrow
@Major Major Major Major: Their staffers always love positive calls. We need all the Reps’ phones to ring off the hook like they did during the healthcare fight.
TenguPhule
@PST:
And you’d be wrong.
Because they want to set the new lowest rate at 12%, which is higher then current rate of 10%. And they haven’t revealed where that lowest bracket cuts off at. So if they set it at say $0 – $5,000 for that bracket, that’s an immediate tax increase on the lowest level. And it only gets worse for the poors and middles from there.
jonas
@gvg: They’re taking away the tax credit for adoptions, which was originally intended to incentivize people to adopt foster kids so they could get out of the system and find permanent homes. Adoption is a fairly complex legal process and there are a lot of court fees and legal fees involved, so this tax credit meant that you didn’t have to figure out where to get the 10 grand to do something good for a child in need.
But it helped poor kids, so the GOP couldn’t let that stand.
Mnemosyne
@Brachiator:
Allowing people to have “moral objections” to science is how we ended up with annual measles and pertussis epidemics in California.
Nicole
@Lee:
It has to do with a lot of apartments being coops instead of condos- you’re not buying the actual apartment, you are buying a share in a coop, and your portion of the share is a certain apartment, which you then live in. It’s a way to keep the cost of the apartment cheaper than a condo, in which you are actually buying the apartment itself. The coops have boards as well, and they are in charge of setting the maintenance fees the tenants all pay- coop maintenance fees are higher than condo maintenance fees. And tenants object strenuously to raising maintenance fees, even though it means some of them are living in buildings that are falling apart around them because there’s no money to do maintenance. And so some banks don’t want to give mortgages for apartments in buildings that aren’t being run well, in the bank’s opinion.
With the end result being the children of rich folk buy those apartments because the kids are working some low-paying internship or glamor job that pays little enough that the kid falls within the income restrictions on the owner, but the parents have the cash on hand to buy the apartment for them.
The long and short of it is that real estate in NYC is really weird.
Major Major Major Major
@Brachiator:
Leave Mnem’s alma mater out of this.
Elizabelle
Banner headline on the LA Times right now:
With a picture of lyin’ Paul Ryan.
Ambitious? Avaricious is more like it.
Mnemosyne
@Major Major Major Major:
I think we can all agree that Notre Dame sucks. ?
chopper
states like CA and NY that put more money into federal coffers than get out of them are going to see that ratio go even higher with this bill. goddamn, this is like a huge middle finger to those states.
JPL
@Cermet: There are also added deductions they can take and the mortgage and salt deduction doesn’t have a cap.
Corporate effective rates will be under 10 percent.
Lee
@Nicole: That makes a bit more sense.
Roger Moore
@jonas:
Also, too, most of those kids waiting to be adopted are darker skinned. One of the things that gets left unsaid when talking about the Russian adoption restrictions in response to the Magnitsky Act sanctions is why Americans are adopting from Russia in the first place. It’s not because they have such sympathy for poor Russian babies. It’s because there aren’t enough light skinned babies in the US to keep up with the demand, and there are plenty of Americans who would rather adopt a light skinned baby from overseas than risk getting a dark skinned one from here in the USA.
brendancalling
For the record, the people answering the phones from Lamar Alexander, Bob Corker, and Diane Black got so angry at me for pointing out my taxes go up under this plan they slammed down the phone on me.
So I called back and asked them if, as southerners, was that how their mommas raised them? Because I always heard about southern mannners, and I know MY momma didn’t raise me like that. At which point they took my comments, and I said “goodbye and bless your heart” (which is how you say “go fuck yourself” in the South).
Mnemosyne
@chopper:
And that ain’t a coincidence. Trump is still pissed that he lost NY and CA by huge margins, and now they have to be punished.
Major Major Major Major
@Elizabelle: I hear Issa the car thief is fine with it though.
@Mnemosyne: I wonder if the Stanford band is still barred for life from playing there…
@brendancalling: Damn. Nice calling, brendan!
Sally
@jonas
Yes, as someone who wants to adopt, this is a devastating blow to me.
Stan
@Nicole:
That’s right. This is how you get the upstate New York GOP reps to back the plan. Property taxes in upstate NY are quite high. Incomes are lower than downstate. Downstate is solidly blue so, yeah, no congressional votes to pick up there anyway.
This could play well in the southern tier, western NY and the adirondacks.
Nicole
@Lee: NYC real estate is just bizarre. A lot, a LOT of luxury apartments in the midtown area are unoccupied- they get bought up by foreign investors, again, due to the low property taxes. It’s just another thing to invest money into. The Russian mafia is VERY involved in NYC real estate (surprise, surprise).
And a lot of these odd gov’t programs for low and middle income homeowners came about during times when no one wanted to live in certain parts of the city and the city, understandably, was trying to encourage homeownership. In the 1980s, the city took possession of a ton of abandoned and falling down old early 20th century brownstones in the area where I live. People could purchase them for $1.00 (I did not misplace that decimal point), but had to commit to fixing them up, which at the time would probably run $50,000 or so. But they were in an area where no one wanted to live. Now, it’s a very desirable area, and the people who took advantage of that offer, are selling these brownstones for a couple million dollars.
Redshift
@chopper:
Feature, not a bug. They’re not trying to hide the fact that they only work for the benefit of people and places that vote for them, not the country as a whole.
Kay
This Trump contact seems completely above-board:
Redshift
In other unsurprising news, Rick Perry is still a dumbass.
Barbara
@PST: It makes no sense to aim a dagger at people whose income levels alone are associated with voting Republican. The mountain and southern states are reliably Republican across most income segments, or at least for whites in the South, but when you go outside of those states to Florida, even North Carolina, Virginia and other swing states, their success is tipped by people who are wealthier. Trump voters had a higher average income than Clinton voters. And this is doubly and even triply true for congressional districts. The districts with high property taxes and good schools and high property values are much more likely to be voting Republican in states like Pennsylvania and Illinois and New Jersey.
eclare
@Major Major Major Major: Exactly…
catclub
How the fuck does this get past reconciliation rules? I suspect it is in there so they can say to the Fundies that they tried to repeal the Johnson Amendment.
Major Major Major Major
So I ran the numbers and it looks like I might save a couple hundred bucks so that corporations can see their bills cut, like, 30%. That’s only because of my particular tax situation though, many households like mine would see a wash or an increase of hundreds or thousands.
Dave
@Stan: Right I’m interested to see where Katko goes since I’m in his district. He actually has some savvy so is a great bellweather to how things will play in districts where the total bugnuts GOP isn’t dominant.
catclub
@Nicole:
why are property taxes low in NYC?
PST
@TenguPhule: I’ll wait till the sharp pencils have a go at this, but if I had to bet, I would stick to my position that the bill will have little effect on households at the median income or less. Payroll taxes are much bigger bites than income taxes for these families. The higher standard deduction will counterbalance the small rate change. Please don’t get me wrong, I hate this bill, but I still expect the pure tax effect to be minimal for most. The benefit cuts to follow will be another story.
The Moar You Know
@catclub: I suspect they’re going to pass and sign regardless and say “fuck the rules”, because they desperately need something they can take to their donors, even if the whole sorry mess gets tossed out in the courts next year.
Laws are only effective if people are willing to adhere to them. Americans these days obviously consider laws as something to be gotten around, rather than respected. I notice this across the board, not just with Republicans – but people of a Republican bent seem especially susceptible to this mindset. I no longer believe this is a fixable problem, and it will bring an end to America, the entity, sooner or later.
TenguPhule
@PST:
Personal exemptions are eliminated. How many times do I have to say this?
You’re wrong. I am one of those sharp pencils here.
rikyrah
Blue Dog Dems weighing support for GOP tax bill
11/02/17 01:17 PM EDT
Conservative-leaning Democrats said Thursday that they’ll take a look at the Republicans’ sweeping tax reform proposal in hopes of reaching a bipartisan deal –– a sharp contrast to the immediate vilification coming from Democratic leaders.
The leaders of the Blue Dogs, while quick to bash the partisan process in which GOP tax plan was forged, said they’re analyzing the legislation to see if it meets their standards. If Republicans cross the aisle for input, the lawmakers suggested, there may be room for them to jump on board.
“As Blue Dogs, the door is never closed to pursuing bipartisan solutions,” the three Blue Dog co-chairman –– Reps. Jim Costa (D-Calif.), Henry Cuellar (D-Texas) and Daniel Lipinski (D-Ill.) –– said in a statement.
“Although we strongly disagree with the process that produced this tax bill, our members will evaluate its contents in a measured way to see how it compares to the principles of the Blue Dog Vision for Tax Reform.
“History proves that a bipartisan process can lead to credible revenue neutral tax reform,” they added. “Our hope is that our Republican colleagues remember that, and participate in the give and take that’s required for a truly bipartisan solution.”
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/358452-blue-dog-dems-weighing-support-for-gop-tax-bill
Nicole
@catclub: Because we pay city income tax, in addition to state income tax. We are taxed eight ways from Tuesday (which I do not resent, as I like parks and libraries and public pools and very much appreciate not having needed to own a car since I was 18 and lived in Pennsylvania), so they needed some way to give something to rich white folk (rich whites benefit most from the low property taxes in the city).
TenguPhule
@The Moar You Know:
Welcome to my world, fellow traveler.
Mike J
Killed: mortgage interest deduction, student loan interest deduction, state and local tax deduction, medical expense deduction
Not killed: Carried interest deduction
catclub
@Major Major Major Major: How did you deal with the new standard deduction. I am confused by the table in the NYT article – it applies the first tax rate starting at $0 but others say that the first tax rate starts at $24k.
could you show your work?
Dupe70
@Yarrow: This. I can imagine a lot of conservative Texans getting hurt by this.
Major Major Major Major
Aaaaand the usual suspects are starting to share that Brazile hitpiece on my book of faces. Thanks Donna! Super helpful!
Dave
@Dave Which reminds me need to call his office.
TenguPhule
@rikyrah:
Primary the bastards. Fing idiots all.
catclub
@Mike J:
killed: AMT
killed: inheritance tax
These are Trump specific. He benefits a ton from these.
Also the pass through 25% definitely he makes a ton from this as well.
Miss Bianca
@brendancalling: good for you! (I won’t say “bless your heart”!)
Guachi
Cut, cut, cut.
CUT Medicare
CUT Medicaid
CUT your tax breaks
This is a shit sandwich. My taxes may go down a little (no kids, no expensive house, no state taxes, no more school expenses) and maybe they’ll go up. But it’s not worth it for the massive tax breaks to the wealthy and do-nothing heirs who picked the correct parents. Nor is it worth it for the massive benefit cuts to the vulnerable among us.
Major Major Major Major
@catclub:
I don’t understand what you mean.
TenguPhule
@catclub: Tax starts on taxable income.
Deductions reduce taxable income.
So 12,000 Deduction means first 12,000 of agi not subject to tax.
Mike J
@brendancalling: Anybody who ever told you anything good about southern manners was full of shit.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: They could just be making mouth noises. Primaries should be based on, y’know, consequential actions.
chopper
so they want to gut obamacare, medicare and medicaid, they refuse to fund CHIP, and now they want to make it so you can’t deduct medical expenses. i sense a theme here.
Nicole
I wonder, also, if the bill is so terrible so that they can get through, under the guise of compromise, what I think they really want, which is killing the inheritance tax. They really, really want to speed up the return of the aristocracy in this nation.
Ugh. People who couldn’t manage to spend all the piles of money they themselves inherited in eight lifetimes, trying to control where it goes after they die.
catclub
@rikyrah:
… something, something, two wolves and a sheep discussing what to have for dinner.
How is it revenue neutral when it promises to blow a $1.5Tr hole in the deficit over ten years?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: what catclub said
catclub
@TenguPhule: Thanks, that helps.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: I don’t see what what catclub said has to do with what I said.
JMG
The Blue Dog statement is just their usual effort to mealy mouth about the idea they’re always open to “bipartisan” solutions. If they really believe in revenue neutral tax reform as they stated, there is no possible bipartisan solution. But they have an image to uphold, if next to no power to do anything.
catclub
@? ?? Goku (aka The Hope of the Universe) ? ?:
I suspect you are not a person of color to ask this.
Ever wonder why the original Social Security did not include ‘domestic workers’? because they were predominantly black?
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major:
Words have power in a debate on taxes.
These Blue Dogs are bending over for the enemy. Again.
Mike J
Roger Moore
@catclub:
Because property values are sky high. Also, they have a local income tax.
Stan
@Barbara
And New York outside NYC.
catclub
But I bet ‘real estate investor will qualify.
Victor Matheson
The tax bill does eliminate the provision that allows cities to issue tax-exempt bonds for stadium construction, so it does have that going for it.
Of course, Obama was in favor of that as well, so I expect Trump to line-item veto that particular good provision if the bill ever gets to his desk.
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Meh. No they’re not. See also: everything Manchin said about bills he voted against this year.
ETA: Also, if you’re worried that ‘words have power’, “History proves that a bipartisan process can lead to credible revenue neutral tax reform” are… not particularly meaningful or interesting words. Hell, I can probably find Obama saying something similar.
PaulWartenberg
It’s like every bad idea the Republicans could come up with to make middle class Americans (regardless of ethnicity) worse off. Take away the homeowners deductions! Take away the state tax deductions! Take away child care credits!
Every single American earning under $90k a year NEEDS to drop out of the Republican Party and Swear upon the Altar of God to NEVER VOTE FOR THESE FUCKERS AGAIN.
Fleeting Expletive
I am really worried about Hope Hicks traveling with the Trump entourage on the Asian trip, since Mueller will interview her as soon as she comes back. What will they do to her on that trip? I can imagine being her mom and being worried. I can also be a citizen who doesn’t trust that mob around a serious fact witness who is a 29 year old woman.
I have a request of all y’all esteemed commenters, please. When you link to something via that “t.co” shortcut, it’s a blind link and I like to see where I’m going. The other day I followed one of those and it sent me to T’s twitter account–yech! Just indicate where you’re pointing at.
Thank you very much.
JMG
Every proposal in this bill is an attack waiting to happen, a good one. “The Republicans made my college loan costs go up thousands.” “We were going to adopt a child, but now we can’t afford it.” “I would’ve gotten a better job in a different city, but now I can’t sell my house,” etc., etc.
Jeffro
@Elizabelle:
Yes, yes, yes, and yes. It’s just as well, I haven’t made any MoC phone calls to try and save our country in at least a week, maybe two.
Ann Marie
@Nicole: Not just repealing the estate tax, but keeping the step-up in basis. Currently, a dead person’s estate but the heirs get to use the fair market value of the property as of the decedent’s date of death as the new income tax basis, rather than the decedent’s actual cost basis. Under the new law, the estate tax would be repealed, but the heirs get to keep the increased basis.
catclub
@PaulWartenberg:
um, no.
Mike J
@JMG:
So we told little Juno to go ahead and have an abortion.
sheila in nc
@PST:
Well, sure. If you wanna give money to the rich people, you can’t take it from the poors — they don’t have any.
Major Major Major Major
@sheila in nc: Sure you can, that was the whole point of their Obamacare repeal bills.
Matt McIrvin
@Barbara: While I agree with the claims that the mortgage interest deduction is probably a bad thing over the long term, I also think that any bill that repeals it is surely going to be dead on arrival unless they cut that bit out. I mean, seriously, that’s a huge kick in the nuts for a constituency that normally supports Republicans.
rikyrah
NOV 2, 2017 @ 07:12 AM
Scott Pruitt Just Stripped The EPA’s Science Boards In Favor Of Industry ‘Counsel’
Trevor Nace , CONTRIBUTOR
The head of the Environmental Protection Agency, Scott Pruitt, just stripped the EPA’s science advisory committee, which counsels the agency on scientific decisions.
The new rules bar anyone who receives grant money from the EPA to serve on an advisory council for the agency’s scientific decisions. The reason, according to Scott Pruitt is to limit conflict of interest from professors who receive money from the EPA to advise on scientific conclusions. However, stringent conflict of interest policies are already in place and there have been no cases of researchers profiting from EPA’s scientific decisions.
Mr. Pruitt has instead decided that industry representatives from oil and gas and electric industries are far more unbiased to advise on EPA decisions. That’s like saying the National Institute of Health (NIH), which funds medical research, should ignore the advice of doctors conducting research in favor of the advice from pharmaceutical salesmen.
The reason behind why the EPA provides these grants is to help the agency, through universities and professors, conduct the research it does not have the capacity to study. If the agency is funding these grants, one ought to think they should utilize those researchers when making decisions on that very topic. Of course, barring any conflict of interest, which already existed.
While initial inspection may present this as a way for Mr. Pruitt to make scientific decisions more grounded in science, he’s doing just the opposite under the guise of this new rule. Now, when the EPA funds a grant to study everything from lead in drinking water to toxic gas emissions from factories the ones who advise the EPA on paths forward will not be professors but representatives from the exact industries the EPA is meant to regulate.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/trevornace/2017/11/02/scott-pruitt-just-stripped-the-epas-science-boards-in-favor-of-industry-counsel/#4eee1e03376e
Cacti
Even the right wing Chicago Tribune says that the Trump plan will likely raise middle class taxes by $600 billion over the next 10-years.
Brachiator
@Ann Marie:
This tax law is just Rich People Candyland!
So, with a step up in basis, the heirs can sell the assets and have smaller (if any) capital gains to be taxed.
The only thing better would be if the tax law let rich people stop poorer people on the street and take their money.
Jeffro
@PaulWartenberg:
They should, but many won’t, since President I’m Looking Out For White People is, well, committed to looking out for white people and reminds them of it constantly with his blatantly racist behavior. Hope they figure out a way to convert racism to meals in their dotage (there’s that word again, almost) because if this bill passes, that’s about all they’ll have in the cupboard.
Gravenstone
@chopper:
Don’t forget that they’ve already made it significantly more difficult to declare bankruptcy. A substantial source of such filings coming from … medical debt. Theme, indeed.
Matt McIrvin
(While I personally benefit quite a lot from the mortgage interest deduction, I’d be in favor of lifting it if it were part of making the tax code more progressive. This way, hell no.)
mai naem mobile
@chopper: if you get sick , die, die quickly!
catclub
@Brachiator:
civil forfeiture is a thing. I think Sessions rolled back Obama Justice Dept rulings to cut it back.
The only thing better would be if the tax law let police, hired by rich people, stop poorer people on the street and take their money.
brendancalling
@Major Major Major Major: I hate them with a passion that burns like a thousand suns, and suggesting that Momma did a bad job raising the kids is really insulting to certain type of southerner.
Elizabelle
I think a new thread with a pet photo or nature would be lovely about now.
Brachiator
@Elizabelle:
This is only the first shoe. The Senate is separately writing their own version of tax legislation, due to be unveiled next week.
Right, now, the Republicans could pass a bill without any Democrats, unless some Republicans defect or object.
brendancalling
@Mike J: oh, I know: I live down here now, and I have never met more people who smile to your face and talk shit behind your back. They have a while set of secret terms nobody is supposed to know about.
“Bless your heart” generally means “you stupid asshole” or “fuck you.”
“Interesting” means “ugly” or “out of place” (“a hawaiin shirt? That’s an interesting choice for a wedding.”)
“That’s nice for you” means “stop bragging on yourself”.
And so on.
catclub
@Jeffro:
I also saw somehting about a senior tax credit:
PST
@TenguPhule:
Well then get out that sharp pencil and show us, don’t just assert it. The way it looks to me, a married couple with no children currently has the standard deduction plus two personal exemptions for a total of $20,800, and that goes up to $24,000 under the bill — a modest improvement. For each child they lose an exemption of $4,050 but get an increase in the child credit of $600, which ought to be equivalent of a $5,000 exemption at a 12 percent tax rate. The first taxable dollar gets taxed at 12 percent instead of 10 percent, but taxable income over $9,000 or so remains at 12 percent under the bill instead of increasing to 15 percent as it does today. So it all looks pretty much like a wash. That said, I can’t claim much rigor. I would respect a back-of-the envelope calculation comparing results for a family of four earning the median $55,000 under current law and the new bill.
germy
@Elizabelle: I saw a TV commercial yesterday that made me laugh.
Credit card that offers “suspicious purchase” alert. Woman sitting on her couch with her cat. She gets an alert on her phone “Doggie Lovers Warehouse purchase”. Cat looks at her suspiciously then walks away in disgust. The woman pleads with the cat that it’s a fraudulent charge as the cat leaves the room.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnAfB8P53MI
Major Major Major Major
@PST: it looks like a wash until you look at mortgage interest and SALT deductions.
catclub
The deficit under present law is not zero and is projected to increase over the next ten years. This proposed law makes it increase by $1.5Tr MORE.
It is crazy to be cutting taxes when times are good ( far better than 2009) and unemployment is low ( also far better than 2009-2012).
This is another trojan horse to gut the federal government.
germy
@catclub:
http://www.gocomics.com/tomtoles/2017/10/24
Major Major Major Major
@catclub:
It’s really more of a bunch of Greeks yelling about how they want to enter your city and destroy it.
catclub
@Major Major Major Major: I think very few families at $50k /yr income have itemized deductions over $24k, even including SALT and Mortgage interest. So i agree with PST that it probably will be a wash for most families at $50k/yr – which is what PST brought up.
HeleninEire
@Mai.naem.mobile: Yes. NYC has very low property taxes relative to the rest of the state. But that’s because they have both an income and a sales tax. Both pretty high.
Calouste
@Matt McIrvin: Also, you can’t just do it suddenly like this. The housing market for houses over about 700k is going to be severely depressed, because there will be fewer people who can afford them. The Netherlands also have a mortgage deduction, but they are building that down by lowering the deduction for the highest income brackets by 1% per year. I.e. if your rate is 50%, your deduction would only be 49%, next year 48% etc.
TenguPhule
@catclub: It depends on the state you live in.
Those without income tax and/or low property tax see a drop or a wash.
Everyone else sees a bump. What’s even more complicating is that state income tax laws tend to piggy back on federal income tax law.
Major Major Major Major
@catclub: You’re right, I was mistakenly including SALT as something you could do in addition to the standard deduction.
Roger Moore
@Brachiator:
That would be gauche and inefficient. It’s much better to steal their money wholesale by stripping their pension funds.
HeleninEire
@Roger Moore: local sales tax, also, too.
PST
@Major Major Major Major:
I’m not saying it’s a wash for everyone. I’m saying I think it is a wash for most people with median income or less. They generally do not itemize. People with $12,000 a year in state and local taxes plus property taxes over $10,000, as in the example you gave earlier, are usually in the top half of the income distribution. It looks to me like a lot of people between say 60 percent and 90 percent in the income distribution will get soaked. That’s why I think the windfall for the truly rich is mostly coming at the expense of the reasonably comfortable (plus, of course, a huge increase in debt, which will be the excuse later for benefit cuts).
smintheus
The Alternative Minimum Tax. That’s all you need to know about this bill. Republicans decided we needed to eliminate the Alternative Minimum Tax? Why? I’m betting they won’t have an answer better than “hummena hummena hummena”.
Major Major Major Major
@PST: See above @159, my error, you’re right.
gvg
@jonas: I was a foster mom and tried to adopt. My sister did succeed in adopting. the tax law is weird. if an adoption fails (mine did, the mother backed out) you can’t deduct the costs till the year after. very expensive wait.
Every bit helps, but I have to say it didn’t help much. its not reimbursement. Its also got to be a pretty minor total amount of cash to steal.
I hated almost everything about Jeb Bush as my governor, but he did care about foster kids and actually tried to do them some favors. Been nibbled away since of course and one mistake he made was of course privatizing their medical care costs, sigh.
Barbara
@Calouste: I favor phasing out the mortgage interest deduction, not eliminating it overnight, but I really question how much of an impact it would have on the price of homes. Interest rates are low — although they have come off their historic lows, they are still very low in comparison to where they were before 1990. My first mortgage was 10+%. I was able to refinance all the way down to under 4%, and we ended up paying it off before rates went all the way to 2.5%. Buyers look at monthly payments, so any change to one dynamic, such as interest rate or mortgage interest deduction will change prices, but I expect this is at the margins. Nonetheless, I am in favor of phasing out deductions like this just to protect people who bought in reliance on it.
TenguPhule
@PST:
Married Couple No Children A: $12,700 standard deduction, personal exemptions (2) 8,100
Total: $20,800
Married Couple No Children B: $22,000 itemized deductions ($1,600 monthly Mortgage interest + SALT $2,800), personal exemptions (2) 8,100
Total: $30,100
Under the GOP Plan,
Couple A gets $3,200 more from the increased deduction despite losing the exemption
Couple B loses $6,100 in deductions from the adjustment.
So you benefit if you’re renting, you get fucked if you own a house in an area with high property values that you’re still making 10+ years of payments on.
/And keep in mind, this doesn’t count the other itemized getting eliminated too
randy khan
It would be nice for someone to point out that this bill would hurt people with medium-sized or larger families.
The elimination of the personal exemption means that you’re a net loser if you’re a married couple with three or more kids or a single parent with two or more kids, and if you were in the not-too-small category of people who itemized but deducted less than the new standard deduction threshold, you’re a net loser even sooner. (Say, for instance, that you’re in a couple with $15,000 in itemized deductions, not too hard if you own your own home – before you got $15,000 for those deductions plus the personal exemptions. So with one kid, you got $27,000 off of your AGI. Now you get $24,000.)
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: Yeah, it’s 3rd-4th-quintile itemizers in places worth living who get fucked.
catclub
Does this mean plastic surgeons will have their scalpels out for this bill?
Can a ‘model’ deduct plastic surgery as a business expense? AFAF
TenguPhule
@Major Major Major Major: And penalizes you for having children.
TenguPhule
@randy khan:
Why are all those colored folk having babies if they can’t afford to raise them? //
TenguPhule
@catclub: Taxing cancer and heart attack victims sounds like a real winner.
catclub
@smintheus:
The honest answer is “Trump absolutely insisted this has to be there for him to back the bill, he will make a killing off this.”
thus humina, humina is their safer choice.
catclub
@randy khan:
but you ignored the increased child tax credit that PST pointed out. The credit increase is $600 per child and at a tax rate of 12% that is equivalent to a $5k exemption.
but there is this:
Major Major Major Major
@TenguPhule: In some circumstances, yes.
randy khan
@TenguPhule:
Yeah, it definitely hurts people who have, oh, a $300,000 mortgage on a $350,000 house in a place with fairly high property taxes. If you’re at 4% and pay even $1,500 in property taxes (which isn’t that much), you’re a net loser.
Also unmentioned in all of this is that most states essentially do a passthrough on itemized deductions, so the people who get hurt will get hurt at the state level, too – a double whammy.
TenguPhule
@randy khan:
I believe I gave that a passing mention in general at @158.
Yeah, most states just copy from the federal law with changes to localize it. Major changes like the ones the GOP want promise to fuck up multiple states local income taxes.
DanR2
@PST: I agree that this is going to be a big surprise for the comfortable middle class McMansion-owning suburban republicans. I bet that $24,000 standard deduction ends up being more like $20,000 in order to spread the pain a little farther down to the medium income.
PST
@TenguPhule:
I agree with the example, and I certainly agree that some people get screwed under this plan. I just think that Couple B is probably earning more than the median income in order to be paying enough in mortgage interest and taxes to have that level of itemized deduction. I admit there will be exceptions: those with extraordinary medical expenses and the poor but very generous, for example. But for the most part, the negative impact appears to be on the above average but not rich taxpayer.
Matt McIrvin
@smintheus: The AMT actually hits a fair number of comfortable upper-middle-class professional types; it wasn’t indexed to inflation until 2013, which meant that it hit more and more people over time, and the Bush tax cuts meant that regular income tax ended up lower than AMT for more of them than had previously. I also remember it catching a bunch of my coworkers back in the 1990s after they made some bad decisions about incentive stock options.
So they have bad feelings about it, which are easy to exploit with calls to remove it entirely, instead of readjusting it to be a billionaire tax again as it was originally intended. Of course, that’s precisely how the billionaires want it: “skin in the game” for a politically influential constituency.
d58826
@Jonny Scrum-half:
beat me to it. All those blue states subsidizing the red states
The Lodger
@Brachiator: If Notre Dame isn’t paying for birth control pills, Trojans may be the only alternative.
d58826
A bit of levity. Young hippo decided to go walk about. Once outside he realized no place like home and turned around
http://www.msn.com/en-us/video/animals/hippo-attempts-daring-zoo-escape-but-has-change-of-heart/vi-AAumu8j?ocid=iehp
TriassicSands
Sorry, but I’m calling BS, Doug!.
The bill is not nearly that good.
The Other Bob
@gvg:
The taxing orphans comment is about the proposed elimination of the adoption tax credit.
Prolife my ass.
TenguPhule
@PST:
That counts as barely treading water in Hawaii. We would get royally fucked en masse if this becomes law.
Bonnie
It basically punishes blue states/democrats. should not be legal.
jonas
@The Lodger: Hi yo!